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Real Life Experience Before surgery

Started by Anatta, May 07, 2011, 03:29:29 AM

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How long should it be?

6 Months
5 (13.2%)
12 Months
15 (39.5%)
24 Months
3 (7.9%)
Not necessary-A waste of time...
13 (34.2%)
Not really applicable, I'm more or less already living full time without HRT or counseling...
2 (5.3%)

Total Members Voted: 36

Cindy

Hi Zenda,

I don't have any problems with your post. I'm 170 cms and weigh 61 kilos. I'm  in inches, 37,30,36. Very happy :laugh: I'm very fit and very healthy. I think Tammy summarised things as saying we do not like  'boxes' and not that we are put in or hoops that we have to jump.

I have problems, and have all my life, passing as male, and failing. I've always identified as female. And yes because of my age I have done all the stuff to try and prove I'm a guy. All failed BTW.

I've also never really thought about what it would be like to be a guy. This is not a contradiction, I tried to blend in. Didn't work. Now a days I don't care, I'm me. This has been cathartic, reached without therapists or whatever. I am me. And I love me.

< where by the way are you from? Hawaii or NZ, just curious about the Kia Ora, how does that translate?>

Hugs

Cindy

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spacial

Quote from: Zenda on May 07, 2011, 05:46:00 PM
A while back research carried out in the UK re: RLE [two years, that was the requirement if one is having government funded surgery back then], found that around two thirds who start the 'experience' drop out, some only a few months into it...Only a third actually continue on with RLE...It's possible some of those who drop out were just "crossdressers" ie, having a feminine side but their core gender identity was not female-others may or may not have suffered from this congenital condition but just couldn't cope with the stress and social pressures involved...

Understandably the RLE can be a real stressful time for some, and if one should find they can't cope, this does not necessarily mean they are not "transsexual", but it is a good indicator that transitioning full time and having[what is for the most part irreversible] surgery may not be the best option for them...

::)  Would a parachutist jump from a plane without first checking their parachute?
When it comes to the older transitioner and the RLE, I feel that one should check their parachute, then check it again and again for 3 months or 6 months or a year or two, when you find it's flawless-that is, it will safely bring you down to earth-jump and enjoy the ride...If you don't 'check' your parachute first[have some RLE under ones belt, but instead rush in and have 'life transforming' surgery], you could quite rapidly return to earth with a big thump and could "live" to regret it


These two points, with respect to you, indicate a mind set.

The comparison with that parachutist would be relevant to check that the surgeon is properly qualified. The parachutist has already made up their mind to jump.

It isn't surprising that many who try RLE, drop out. But to then assume they drop out, because they have changed their minds, or realised their resolve wasn't as great as they thought is inaccurate.

Transgender people have, according to the evidence I've looked at, existed since the earliest times. The indications seem to suggest that the tendency is often innate, or at the very least,  of such casual consequences as to be effectively innate.

Yet it is only in the last 60 or so years, that remodeling the human body has been available.

It is only within the last 40 or so years, that there has been any general acceptance of anything other than hetrosexuality. (I recall the accepted wisdom being that homos are stuck in the anal stage of their development).

As a transgender person, I seek such intervention as will make my own life, more comfortable. Since the dawn of human time, like all transgender people, I have simply had to try to function, within the confines of my society, as best as I can.

Those that grew up in western European societies, for example, seem to have found it necessary to hide their reality, to the extent of over compensation. While those in many far Eastern societies, including, (apparently), N America, seem to have found a secure position for themselves, within the existing structure of their societies.

This demonstrates that, while transgender has always existed, those affected have needed to adapt themselves to their own local environments. That my European predecessors have hiden themselves to the extent of overcompensation, does not indicate that their were never transgender.

This would seem to be the attempted implication of the claim: found that around two thirds who start the 'experience' drop out, some only a few months into it...

As a tenager, I would have sought, as full a transision as I could get. I'm now in my 50s, I have a stable family life and a stable social life.

My changing priorities do not indicate that my feelings or resolve have altered, rather that my opportunities and the demands of my environment have changed.

I make no judgement upon those who have chosen to transision in later life. I offer my continuing support to those that have sacrificed so much, even everything, to pursue their goals.

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Anatta

Quote from: Tammy Hope on May 08, 2011, 03:06:35 AM
hoops are hoops, if you have to jump you have to jump - it's not a matter of want to jump.

I am not at all disagreeing that there are cases, as Cindy described, where the individual needs the RLE to process their individual circumstances. i think for most of us we just kind of rebel at a "one-size-fits-all" prescription.

Kia Ora Tammy,

"Different strokes for different folks" is a good thing, for example if a person turns up for every therapy session say on or after the initial intro one, dressed appropriately in attire that expresses who they are[this doesn't have to mean them dressed to kill ie, make-up dress, high heels fake nails, etc ] in other words dressed in a comfortable manner, and whose behaviour is relaxed and "natural" then I would agree why should they have to do a long RLE when they are already totally comfortable with who they are...

But on the other hand, if one is dressed to the nines the full shebang, but their behaviour is agitated and they're looking and feeling quite self conscious, I would agree with the therapist in that they DO need time to adjust...

I think when the policy makers think of trans-people they tend to think more on the lines of the latter, which no doubt has lead to them prescribing the across the board measures, thinking "It's better to be safe than sorry!" After all that's what the RLE is all about...

::)  I've rattled on long enough, my brain is telling me I must sleep...So I'm off to bed now.. nighty night all and thanks for all the great input...But by all means please feel "free" to continue the discussion...

PS, Kia Ora Cindy,

I'm an Afro-Saxon born in the UK[Father Afro Caribbean  Jamaican - Mother Anglo-Saxon English], migrated to Aussie when I was 16 and moved to Aotearoa [ NZ] 20 odd years ago [my ex 's a Kiwi]

"Kia Ora" is a Maori Greeting like Hi, Hello, G'day[Hawaiian and Maori  are similar, but not quite the same] ...Kia Ora can also be used as a way of saying Thank you too...

Nice to meet you Cindy, but I'm off to bed now, it's way past my bed time...

Kia Ora Spacial,

I would love to chat but I really do have to go to bed now...You do make some interesting points though, and I also agree with a lot of what you have said.. I'm not for one minute saying those who suffer from this condition shouldn't do something about it, all I'm saying is people should think long and hard[just like you yourself have done] and weigh up all the odds and once a decision is made [with a clear/sound mind] do what it takes to become comfortable... To rush into something as life changing as this is dangerous...However if one feels they CAN handle it and DON"T need any RLE period to adjust...Good on them and I wish them well and all the success...

But this doesn't stop me having concerns for their well being... Nice meeting you Spacial...   

Now I really DO have to go to bed...I'm running on empty...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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jesse

my biggest issue is that the "rle" puts the individual at an extream risk of assault or death. i have encountered situations in the us were so called therapists required rle prior to authorizing hrt this is ludicris and a dangerous position to take. very few if any of us except the most young or genetically lucky could even come close to passing pre hrt and others cant pass post hrt. to require rle before even considering a person for hrt is negligence. like any rule once in place there will always be some moron who will abuse it to fit his or her own agenda.....
jessi
like a knife that cuts you the wound heals but them scars those scars remain
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spacial

Quote from: Zenda on May 08, 2011, 04:35:10 AM

Kia Ora Spacial,

I would love to chat but I really do have to go to bed now...You do make some interesting points though, and I also agree with a lot of what you have said.. I'm not for one minute saying those who suffer from this condition shouldn't do something about it, all I'm saying is people should think long and hard[just like you yourself have done] and weigh up all the odds and once a decision is made [with a clear/sound mind] do what it takes to become comfortable... To rush into something as life changing as this is dangerous...However if one feels they CAN handle it and DON"T need any RLE period to adjust...Good on them and I wish them well and all the success...

But this doesn't stop me having concerns for their well being... Nice meeting you Spacial...   

Now I really DO have to go to bed...I'm running on empty...

Metta Zenda :)

Thank you Zenda.

It's really refreshing and stimulating to have discussions that encourage us to think a bit deeper, beyond our original preconceptions.


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Layn

Quote from: jesse on May 08, 2011, 04:39:28 AM
my biggest issue is that the "rle" puts the individual at an extream risk of assault or death. i have encountered situations in the us were so called therapists required rle prior to authorizing hrt this is ludicris and a dangerous position to take. very few if any of us except the most young or genetically lucky could even come close to passing pre hrt and others cant pass post hrt. to require rle before even considering a person for hrt is negligence. like any rule once in place there will always be some moron who will abuse it to fit his or her own agenda.....
jessi
heck here in germany it's
you start RLE. a year into RLE you can start HRT. hair removal is 6 months after starting HRT, and i think another 6 months later is SRS.
meaning a year and a half after starting to live as a woman you have to let a beard grow for removal... the good thing is that health care or insurance or whatever will pay most of it for you, the bad is that if your Therapist is a jerk who can't twist the rules for the patients and you can't find another one, you are stuck following that order. but again, at least you don't have to pay enormous amounts of money... eh
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Sarah B

Quote from: girl_ashley on May 07, 2011, 10:49:32 PM
That's not oxymoronic, that is redundant.

Yes, Real Real is redundant but 'Real Life Experience' is oxymoronic statement in an ironic way and I'm being extremely sarcastic in relation to the Real Life Experience statement.

Kind regards
Sarah B

Be who you want to be.
Sarah's Story
Feb 1989 Living my life as Sarah.
Feb 1989 Legally changed my name.
Mar 1989 Started hormones.
May 1990 Three surgery letters.
Feb 1991 Surgery.
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girl_ashley

Quote from: jesse on May 08, 2011, 04:39:28 AM
my biggest issue is that the "rle" puts the individual at an extream risk of assault or death. i have encountered situations in the us were so called therapists required rle prior to authorizing hrt this is ludicris and a dangerous position to take. very few if any of us except the most young or genetically lucky could even come close to passing pre hrt and others cant pass post hrt. to require rle before even considering a person for hrt is negligence. like any rule once in place there will always be some moron who will abuse it to fit his or her own agenda.....
jessi

I do believe this is why so many therapists will now allow beginning HRT before beginning "RLE" because they realize the changes the hormones make us more able to fit in as our target gender once a period of time on hormones has elapsed.  At least, this is one of reasons why it should be allowed to start HRT before "RLE" (if, that is, the therapist is requiring "RLE)
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Tammy Hope

Quote from: jesse on May 08, 2011, 04:39:28 AM
my biggest issue is that the "rle" puts the individual at an extream risk of assault or death. i have encountered situations in the us were so called therapists required rle prior to authorizing hrt this is ludicris and a dangerous position to take. very few if any of us except the most young or genetically lucky could even come close to passing pre hrt and others cant pass post hrt. to require rle before even considering a person for hrt is negligence. like any rule once in place there will always be some moron who will abuse it to fit his or her own agenda.....
jessi

I think this doesn't get considered enough by the gatekeepers. We live in a society in which the vast majority of the population can't get even the most basic protections on use of public accommodations, yet RLE requires the transitioner to use the female option every time.

The potential negative reaction is well know, documented, and exemplified regularly. i can't imagine how it can be considered ethical to require someone to put themselves at risk (albeit, no one is requiring me to and i do it anyway).

Especially in light of the fact (and i speak from personal experience here) when we, pre-op,  conduct ourselves as female in ways in which we KNOW in our soul that we are running the risk of being violently outed, we are NOT in reality "being women" in the sense that RLE expects us to, rather, we are being "others" - outsiders trying to "get away with" something.

That is not the objective of the RLE.
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
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Rock_chick

To be honest all the life experience I'm having to go through is extremely frustrating. The point of no return for me was a year ago when i decided to transition. Yes there have been a few bumps on the road but I've never once waivered in my desire not to go back. I'm lucky, things are happening faster than I originally thought they would...something which i'm extremely grateful for, but if i could have surgery tomorrow I would.
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spacial

It occurs to me that RLE has been imposed as a sort of test, the judgement being, that if you can't humiliate yourself by spending a period of time, living according to someone's stereotype of how your sort of people should look, then you don't really want to do this anyway.

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justmeinoz

Personally I think it should be called "Living in Role" or similar, because until SRS it can't really even approximate "Real Life". 
  As for humiliation, as a member of the Police you get accused of lying under oath or worse, so it's water of a duck's back to me.
It's really a case by case thing. No two of us are the same.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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Delu

While I understand the idea behind RLE I don't think anything more than six months should be necesssary for most.
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spacial

But we are still left with the conundrum of having to live according to someone's defination of the desired gender.

If I were asked for RLE prior to begining treatment to surgery toward appearing more female, what would I be expected to wear?

A short, black mini skirt, red lipstick, knee lenght boots and huge false boobs?

Or perhaps a conservative, knee length skirt, with a blouse and false boobs?

My wife is genetically female. We dress in the same way. Trousers. A sweat shirt or tee shirt. We both have short hair. The only difference is, I don't have false boobs because I I see no reason to have false anything.

The notion of dressing for RLE is insulting and sexist.

Perhaps if someone could provide some established guidelines of what appropriate clothing for RLE is.

For a Gfamale, would they be expected to wear a tight binder? What if such a thing is uncomfortable. Many gfemales have quite large breasts.
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Ann Onymous

RLE is a joke.  A competent therapist can tell in very short order whether a client fits a societal role.  The competent provider does not mandate the client play 'dress up' but rather wants the client to take reasonable measures to be viewed by society as a collective whole as the appropriate sex.  Jeans and comfortable shoes can fit that bill... 

I don't know that either of the two persons who wrote my letters ever saw me in a dress and neither ever saw me wearing much in the way of make-up.  Yet neither had any qualms about providing the letters required for surgery.  The therapist who was being paid as a primary would have written my letter on the second visit had I made the request...wish I would have known that at the time, but c'est la vie.  My other letter was from a prof who saw me in a classroom setting as well as a few out of class encounters including dinner with him and his wife.   

I would opine that an M2F being 'treated' by a therapist who mandated a particular style of dress or a phucton of makeup is conducting their practice in a manner that borders on malpractice. 
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girl_ashley

Quote from: Ann Onymous on May 11, 2011, 01:45:47 PM
RLE is a joke.  A competent therapist can tell in very short order whether a client fits a societal role.  The competent provider does not mandate the client play 'dress up' but rather wants the client to take reasonable measures to be viewed by society as a collective whole as the appropriate sex.  Jeans and comfortable shoes can fit that bill... 

I don't know that either of the two persons who wrote my letters ever saw me in a dress and neither ever saw me wearing much in the way of make-up.  Yet neither had any qualms about providing the letters required for surgery.  The therapist who was being paid as a primary would have written my letter on the second visit had I made the request...wish I would have known that at the time, but c'est la vie.  My other letter was from a prof who saw me in a classroom setting as well as a few out of class encounters including dinner with him and his wife.   

I would opine that an M2F being 'treated' by a therapist who mandated a particular style of dress or a phucton of makeup is conducting their practice in a manner that borders on malpractice.

Yeah, because you know that if you don't go to your therapy appointments in a dress and without makeup then you're just not serious enough to be allowed to transition.

I agree, neither of my therapists every saw me in a dress or with make up on.  I think all-in-all, my primary therapist only saw me twice in girl mode, and that was six months apart.  And actually both therapists didnt know I had gone full time until the very appointment I booked with each to get surgery letters from them.
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Ann Onymous

Quote from: girl_ashley on May 11, 2011, 02:10:18 PM
Yeah, because you know that if you don't go to your therapy appointments in a dress and without makeup then you're just not serious enough to be allowed to transition.

I agree, neither of my therapists every saw me in a dress or with make up on.  I think all-in-all, my primary therapist only saw me twice in girl mode, and that was six months apart.  And actually both therapists didnt know I had gone full time until the very appointment I booked with each to get surgery letters from them.

Both of my peeps saw me in 'girl' mode from the first time I met them (the second was the prof who initially knew me just as a student in the class).  But 'girl mode' attire was baby dyke mode.  It was abundantly clear to them that I was at a societal comfort level in terms of presentation and acceptance... 
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Robert Scott

I know each therapist views things differently ... my therapist stated when I started binding is when I began my RLE.  She said for her it starts when you make an effort to be seen as your true gender.  It's not that you declare yourself or dress a certain way but its when you have made the mental switch to I want to be seen as my true gender and you take steps towards such.  Her belief is the gender is fluid and people express it in a variety of ways an no one should be forced to fit into gender roles.
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LifeInNeon

On the one hand, for a transsexual who is firmly set and ready, it's an unnecessary delay. It's not uncommon to not want to pursue romantic relationships until it's done, and putting love on hold for a year for something so arbitrary is just unnecessary.

On the other hand, there are some who can and would move through things very quickly, and it is not an easy or simple procedure to recover from. So rushing into that and piling that physical recovery on top of the other challenges in such a short time span could be overwhelming. But time alone may not affect those other things in the slightest; there may never be a good time to do it besides now.

But I agree with many others here. That's all stuff to be worked out with the therapists involved. I do think a modicum of gatekeeping is necessary to, at the very least, ensure that people actually are informed and have given it proper consideration. But I find it difficult to believe anyone would get this far without knowing what they are in for and wanting to continue. More importantly, those who "might regret it" are probably going to slip through anyway. So if they're not being helped, then who is the forced waiting period helping?
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Tammy Hope

Quote from: spacial on May 11, 2011, 07:19:47 AM
It occurs to me that RLE has been imposed as a sort of test, the judgement being, that if you can't humiliate yourself by spending a period of time, living according to someone's stereotype of how your sort of people should look, then you don't really want to do this anyway.

+1

It really is telling that what the industry defines as RLE occurs in a theoretical non-bigoted world where all you have to do is accomplish living in the target gender.

In the real world, RLE means you have to accomplish living as an object of scorn and be prepared to endure it.

I think perhaps they realize that they are sending you for the latter, but call it the former to somehow "clean it up" a bit.
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
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