christianity: truth or myth?

[VeryGnawty]

actually I believe Hell is here on earth, why else would god have you suffer pain and endure everything else bad in life.

Earth may be Hell, but the Kingdom of Heaven is within you.

[Jillieann Rose]

,........actually I believe Hell is here on earth, why else would god have you suffer pain and endure everything else bad in life.

My answer.

Many here at Susan's have declared in other posting that they have grown stronger because of all the struggles they have had to go thru.
I call this life a journey a train ground, it's a place for me to become the person God wants me to be. Yes I have and will continue to struggle thru this life, but one day, God will take me to a new and better world.

Jillieann

[jamesBrine]

hey!
  I would like to thank everyone for the imput onto this topic. To answer a question that was going around about what Christianity I was reffering to is the Christianity found in the nicene creed. (http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm) The belief in this creed sums up at a basic level what it means to be a christian. By christian I mean one who holds these beliefs to be true.

  Second, I think my intent of the thread was mis-understood and I apologize if I gave the wrong impression. I was looking for arguments to support atheism not attack Christianity. My question was why would someone choose atheism over any other religion if they felt Christianity was a lie? Hope this clears up any mis-understandings about my intent on my request.

   In regard to the question of suffering and why God allows it that you read "The Problem of Pain" by C.S. Lewis if you would like a Christian theological perspective.
  Fourthly, some good sources for reading on this topic are:
        Jesus under Fire by Moreland & Wilkens
        Does God exist. Debate between Kai Neilson & J.P. Moreland
        Philosphical foundations for a Christian Worldview.

[cindianna_jones]

I believe that the most important message that Christ delivered was that we should love each other.  I have no problem with that message.  I believe that religion has been contorted as it has materialized into groups and organizations.  Anytime power and money get involved, the message has changed.

Why would anyone choose atheism?  When your fundamental belief system is pulled out from underneath you and people who you have respected as leaders are proven to be false, it is easily accomplished.  Remember, atheism is a binary opposite of belief.  For the believers, their faith is their way of life (one of the definitions).  For the atheist, he develops a moral code and life structure based on other values.  For the believer, many actions promise punishment for sin and blessings for obedience.  For the atheist, all you've got is what you can make for yourself.

My beliefs have been thrown in the blender in my lifetime, mixed up, and spewn up.  I've been picking up the pieces and trying to sort out that mess ever since.  Am I an atheist? No.  Am I a believer? I want to believe.  But in the mean time I am finding it much easier to follow the fundamental principal of love that Christ taught.  It has no constraints and no bounds and it is so easily shared. It is applicable to every person from every walk of life. It is a universal concept that spoils if confined. I do believe that the things you hold dear should make you happy in THIS life.  And love does that my friends.

Be righteous to one another... share the love.  Peace be unto you my friends.


Chin up!

Your un-pastor of the un-church,
Cindi

[Suzy]

I hope that folks on both sides of the debate will stop and watch this CNN report.  It helps put things in perspective for me.

http://tinyurl.com/yxewot

Kristi

[colin_pdx]

Thanks, Kristi, for posting the link to the CNN report. I had seen a story about her some time ago, and I was touched, as I was this time, by her experience and her paintings. I have come to know Christ again, recently. I DO experience him. I do believe. I resonate much more with the mystical traditions in Christianity and Vedanta than I do with the dogmatic proclamations and rules in the Bible, though. Thus the exploration of gnosticism, which, as you said, is outside the scope of this thread. Just to further define the frame I am coming from, though: Saint Teresa of Avila, herself, experienced sequential "rooms" in the "Castle", the last of which was Union with God, outside of space, time and personhood, beyond the realms of heaven and hell. But I will admit that I am new to exploring mysticism, and my thoughts and beliefs on the matter are in constant flux, unfolding as I unfold/evolve in my understanding and experience of the great mystery.

[katia]

i did watch it, yet i wouldn't consider her talent the result of a [divine] miracle.  it's evident that she has a [beautiful mind] as explained here;

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/89/beautiful-minds.html

[Suzy]

Hi Katia,

That movie is one of my favorites.  It's a wonderful story.  Obviously we have differening perceptions of events because of differing presuppositions shaping our world views.  If one has decided against the possibility of the supernatural, then he/she will not be open to any interpretation of events that includes divine intervention.  That's fine, I can certainly live with that. 

Colin, my favorite quote by St. Theresa of Avila, which has been very meaningful to me is as follows:

Christ has no body now on earth but ours.
No hands but ours; No feet but ours;
Ours are the eyes to view Christ's compassion to the world;
Ours are the feet with which Christ is to go about doing good;
Ours are the hands with which Christ is to bless now.
               -St. Theresa of Avila

Peace, Please!

Kristi

[Brianna]

I love how the alleged bible is quoted in this thread as if it means anything.

The subject of this thread is "Christianity: Truth or Myth." I am going to make a simple point about that. Belief in the alleged god, the alleged jesus any of these religious beleifs is by definition completely irrational.

It is exactly as rational to beleive an alien will fly out of the sky and deliver you to paradise on a unicorn with an anal probe as it is to believe in the propeganda of Christianity.

It makes no sense. It's not rational. It's lala land. There is no proof. Zero, none, nada.

I find the Spice Girls music strangely and irrationally comforting too, but that doesn't make them the freaking mesiahs.

Bri

[jamesBrine]

hey
thanks for your post Brianna. You say that there is no proof for Christianity and is irrational.Ok, your intitled to your beliefs. How far would you say that the belief in a faith is irrational. Is the concept of other faiths irrational, or God itself be irrational and if so what makes atheism rational? I do agree that one can not prove to someone that Christianity is real or that "god" in fact is real but that does not mean that there aren't arguments that support the theist claim.

My other question for you is how do you define yourself Jewish. I know in other posts you call yourself a Jewish Agnostic/Atheist. I understand this question may be personal so please feel free not to answer. Thanks, James

[Brianna]

Well James,

It's not a "belief" that Christianity is irrational, as far as I can understand. It's a fact. So let me turn that question around. Why would you choose to believe in something irrational?

Here's a brief list of 4 other irrational things to believe in.
1. That the color of your panties influences the weather.
2. That Miss Cleo is a psychic genius
3. That aliens are behind the spy kids movies
4. That Mel Gibson is not a raving anti-semite

Bri

Ps- I am a Jewish agnostic. How is that unclear?

[jamesBrine]

hey, thanks for the quick response. First I don't believe Christianity to be irrational. If you wish we can discuss some arguments for and agianst the Christian God.

Second, about the Jewish Agnostic I was under the impression that Jews follow the teaching of the Torah and the belief in YHWH. I'm confident that Jewish thinking does not seperate spiritual from secular so I was thrown off when some who said they are Jewish didn't follow Jewish religous teachings. Sorry for the misunderstanding
James

[Brianna]

Your misunderstanding about the Jewish faith is fine. Besides, it's tangental to this conversation for you to concern yourself with it.

I am going to have to put on my reporters hat here, James, and point out that you are avoiding the point I am making. Here it is, one more time. There is no reason whatsoever to rationally beleive in God, the alleged Jesus or the Christian faith. Faith, by definition, is highly irrational. 

If you are going to indulge in irrational beleifs, it would seem to me that there are so many others that don't have the devastating cultural consequenses of Christianity. Further examples would be the moon being made of blue cheese, astrology or even the urban myth that having sex in front of the TV acts as a contraceptive. Why not believe in these instead of Jesus? Fewer gays and transsexuals would suffer.

Bri

[jamesBrine]

hey

what you are saying is that it is irrational to believe in God. I hope I understand your point.
faith:belief that is not based on proof
rational:having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense
I think you are misunderstanding faith in the Christian context of the word, faith does not have to be irrational as you say it is. Most intellectual Christians would hold to a rational faith (such as myself and Kristi) This does not mean it requires no belief in the unseen, rather belief and reason work together.The Christian gospel requires rational faith. But lets for a moment assume faith is irrational there are still many good arguments that point to the nature of a God. i.e. morality. My request with you is to investagate the claim that belief in the alleged (by this I think you mean son of God Jesus) Jesus is irrational.

[Debbie_Anne]

To assume that all Christians hate gays and transsexuals is a generalisation.  There are GBLT friendly churches out there, and many gays and transsexuals are religious people.   

[Melissa]

To assume that all Christians hate gays and transsexuals is a generalisation.  

Just as it would be to assume that all gays and transsexuals hate Christians.   Truth is, I don't believe it's christianity or christians in general that upsets many people, but it's how we have been treated by many christians.

Melissa

[jamesBrine]

To politly state the following, I believe Christianity and this thread have heuristic value. I think if you go back to the beginning you can see that my intent at least was to learn of anothers position. Even lately with my brief dialouge with Brianna my goal was to discuss rational arguments on whether belief in the "alleged Jesus" is rational. Maybe I'm missing your point about what heuristic value means and if so I apologize greatly and then ask that you clearify it up for me in simplier words.
Thanks
   James

[Brianna]

Yes, it is a mistake to say that generally Christians hate and despise gays and transsexuals. It's also a mistake to say that Christians don't hate and despise gays and transsexuals. This is also a generality.

It *is* factual to say that Christians went to a gay bar, tricked Matthew Shepard into accepting a ride and then tied him to the bumper of their truck with a chain and tortured him to death - in God's name because they thought they were empowered to murder gays. That's a pejorative fact, but it is the reality we live in. And this is why, as a transsexual woman, I think Christianity is dangerous to my health, the family I hope to one day have and the country I live in.

I don't know James. Something that I found scary that you would probably find comforting was a Youtube clip on my favorite site, www.slate.com. It had a Christian minister talking about the utter irrationality of his beliefs, and how no one else could sense them or understand them. I have no doubt this is as equally as powerful an emotion for you.

I do worry what others experiencing this psychological phenomina feel empowered to do - which is why I mentioned Matthew Shepard.

Bri

Ps- The reason I call "jesus" the alleged jesus is that one day it might be proved that god does exist and that there is a messiah. As a Jew, I believe that if a Messiah comes, it will not have been the alleged jesus.

[jamesBrine]

where about is it on the link?

[tinkerbell]

my favorite quote by St. Theresa of Avila, which has been very meaningful to me is as follows:

Christ has no body now on earth but ours.
No hands but ours; No feet but ours;
Ours are the eyes to view Christ's compassion to the world;
Ours are the feet with which Christ is to go about doing good;
Ours are the hands with which Christ is to bless now.
               -St. Theresa of Avila



Kristi

  that's beautiful, Kristi.  But again I am a Christian....what do I know, right?

I agree that the movie is a wonderful story.  You don't need hard facts to explain faith.  Faith is a natural feeling which comes from all of us who believe in God.  It is not based on scientific proof or any kind of evidence. You either have it or you don't.  It is obvious that some of you don't have it; I have realized that a long, long time ago, and I am perfectly fine with that.  However, if you are not able to show some respect for our beliefs, just move on to a different topic and don't post any kind of mockery, for it is very rude and uncalled for.

I think that I just elaborated on why I usually avoid these types of threads...

By replying to this thread, you have definitely not ignored it.

tinkerbell