Estrogen without blockers???

[chrishoney]

I will admit that I only just heard about this last night, and I haven't read the paper that was referred to but apparently a respected enoctrinologist, who treats trans patients wrote it with the basic gist that a lot of girls don't get ideal results because they insist on the maximum dosages straight away, when in fact natural female puberty ramps up slowly over 3 to 6 months, which gets the estrogen receptors ready for the massive wash of hormones that is on the way.

I came across this link on another forum I frequent. The main intent of the article is to address the myths around MtF's using progesterone as part of their hormone regimen (according to the author they shouldn't--too many risks and no benefit), but it does discuss estrogen levels in natal females with respect to breast growth and over all fat metabolism during puberty.

http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf

Hope it helps.

[Jacelyn]

Estrogen can suppressed GnRH excretion (1) which in turn lower LH level, and so reduce testosterone production.
Estrogen also raised SHBG level, result in higher level of SHBG bound  testosterone (not bio-available), thus reduced the level of non-SHBG bound  testosterone (bio-available). This two results are similar to those obtained by most anti-androgen. The level where these results occurred need not be at unhealthy level, usually the standard dosage for MTF is sufficient (age is a factor).

The gradual build-up of estrogen receptor through lower dosage before full dosage for full growth of breast issue does apply (in order to save the initial cost of higher dosage), but the usage of estrogen does not concentrate on breast growth only, a sufficient dosage which is maintained steadily is the factor contributing to its anti-androgen effect.

The use of anti-androgen is not recommended due to:

1. side effect of drug
2. some anti-androgens are much more expensive than estrogen
3. some anti-androgen actually inhibiting the positive effect of estrogen
4. more difficult to reverse to the condition prior to HRT
5. almost all anti-androgens have negative effect on liver

Reference:
1. http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/S/SexHormones.html

[Padma]

I came across this link on another forum I frequent. The main intent of the article is to address the myths around MtF's using progesterone as part of their hormone regimen (according to the author they shouldn't--too many risks and no benefit), but it does discuss estrogen levels in natal females with respect to breast growth and over all fat metabolism during puberty.

http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf

Hope it helps.

I like Dr Curtis' conclusion that if you want bigger breasts, forget progesterone and just eat more pies - after all, breasts are 80% fat, and as he says, it's got to come from somewhere. An interesting paper.

[Rock_chick]

I came across this link on another forum I frequent. The main intent of the article is to address the myths around MtF's using progesterone as part of their hormone regimen (according to the author they shouldn't--too many risks and no benefit), but it does discuss estrogen levels in natal females with respect to breast growth and over all fat metabolism during puberty.

http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf

Hope it helps.

seen this, it's essentially bunk...at least in my experience of taking progesterone

[Jacelyn]

Progesterone also suppressed GnRH excretion (1).
Progesterone also raised SHBG level (2).

Thus adding Progesterone has an additive effect on anti-androgenic action. There is no requirement for drug-base anti-androgen.


1. Donal C. Skinner, Neil P. Evans, Bernadette Delaleu, Robert L. Goodman, Philippe Bouchard, and Alain Caraty, The negative feedback actions of progesterone on gonadotropinreleasing hormone secretion are transduced by the classical progesterone receptor, Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1998 September 1; 95(18): 10978–10983.

2. fractal1 on Jan 21, 2009, Re: High Estrogen & SHBG, http://www.hormonesupportgroup.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=womenshormoneissues&action=display&thread=368

[Iceprincess]

This conversation brings me to a question:

Should I start with a low dosage of E, and gradually increase it, but use testosterone blockers from the start? Could I get better results that way?

[Jacelyn]

One may start estrogen from a lower dosage but gradually increase it, while observe the changes, anti-androgen is not needed. If one must use anti-androgen, try black tea, it can blocked DHT near the level of Propecia with no side effect of drug.

[Medusa]

So why doctors (who should know about it more than we) prescribe anti-androgen if it is not needed?

[Jacelyn]

The fact is not all doctors prescribe anti-androgen, and experience doctors in transgender HRT are few. Also, there is large public misconception about using anti-androgen for breast growth. Anti-androgens are mainly for treatment of male boldness and prostate cancer, not intended for HRT. As the supplement of estrogen in HRT has anti-androgen effect.

[Medusa]

And some prescribe just anti-androgen for begining (but this is opposite extreme)

Can someone compare effect of estrogen with and without blockers on themselves?

[Jacelyn]

For the underage, the use of anti-androgen may be necessary in order suppressed testerone but without the estrogen to stop the increase in height. When estrogen can be use in full dosage, anti-androgen is no longer needed. Most blockers are based on the mechanism of inhibiting GnRH excretion, estrogen also accomplish the same thing. Some blockers suppressed the effect of testerone directly, the raised SHBG level caused by estrogen also suppressed testerone by binding it.

[xxUltraModLadyxx]

i never took progesterone. i've only heard it's necessary in genetic females for strengthening the uterus during the menstrual cycle, and it's the dominant hormone during pregnancy. what does it do to feminize the body?

[xxUltraModLadyxx]

One may start estrogen from a lower dosage but gradually increase it, while observe the changes, anti-androgen is not needed. If one must use anti-androgen, try black tea, it can blocked DHT near the level of Propecia with no side effect of drug.

you see, i never knew that. why don't we give that trick to the mtf in the age of puberty, but have no hrt? drink black tea daily.

[Jacelyn]

you see, i never knew that. why don't we give that trick to the mtf in the age of puberty, but have no hrt? drink black tea daily.

Black tea / soy food alone without estrogen only blocked DHT, but other non-SHBG bound testerone still has masculinizing effect.

i never took progesterone. i've only heard it's necessary in genetic females for strengthening the uterus during the menstrual cycle, and it's the dominant hormone during pregnancy. what does it do to feminize the body?

Progesterone also inhibiting GnRH excretion, increase estrogen receptor sensitivity which help raise SHBG level, progesterone also has its own receptors which contribute to breast growth, all these effects contributing to and amplifying estrogen's feminizing effect. If estrogen's dosage seem insufficient as an anti-androgen, the adding of progesterone has an additive, anti-androgenic effect. This, in addition to combine effect of black tea, green tea / soy food, should be considered before adding anti-androgen (which should be the last resort in extreme cases).

[Bird]

Where did you get all this information from, Joyce? Are you a health professional?

[Jacelyn]

I'm just someone who do a lot of study for medication due to lack of transgender support in my country.

[Bird]

So basically you are giving out your "medical" opinion without being graduated in medicine.

[Rock_chick]

Okay, I'm going to step in here. Giving (and listening) to medical advice posted on the internet by and unqualified individual (no matter how well intentioned) is a decidedly risky course of action. There is a reason you have your bloods monitored by a qualified endo and that's because they know what they are doing.

Joyce, I'm going to ask you to stop please, what your posting is dangerously close to advice and dangerously close to suggesting dosages, which is of course against TOS. Two of our younger and more impressionable members have seemingly taken to heart what you've been saying and that is actually worrying me slightly.

Also it's worth bearing in mind that HRT is not just about breast development.

Thank you. Transmission ends

[rejennyrated]

I like Dr Curtis' conclusion that if you want bigger breasts, forget progesterone and just eat more pies - after all, breasts are 80% fat, and as he says, it's got to come from somewhere. An interesting paper.

In my opinion Dr Curtis is seriously mistaken - if only for the reason that many of us who take progesterone do so because it also has effects as a moderator of mood. I personally take it for this reason - although to look at my development I think I also tend to the view that I am also a pretty good counter argument to his views on breast development too. - my personal opinion of him is literally unprintable without getting me banned (so you can gather it isn't high!)

[Gabby]

i think my nose has gotten smaller, and my mom did mention it too that it seems smaller. but in general it just doesn't look so wrong anymore, maybe it's just blending in. i don't know

Big noses are great will I pull it off I dunno I hope so.  Works for Uma