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Legal recognition for non-opers !

Started by Anatta, May 26, 2011, 12:17:08 AM

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0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Well should they have???

Yes they should be eligible providing they meet the set out criteria
38 (79.2%)
No legal recognition should only be had by those who have had genital surgery
7 (14.6%)
Really don't give a toss
2 (4.2%)
Not given it much thought
1 (2.1%)

Total Members Voted: 45

FairyGirl

Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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Miniar

However unrealistic, when the system really does not work for a certain group of people, however small, in a way that is easy to consider "unfair" if not oppressive, then yeah, I feel we should strive to change the system.
I do not think that's arrogant.
That's how minorities have gotten what they need in the past.
That's how minorities have gotten basic human rights in the past even.

I don't agree with reducing a person to their genitals and whether or not they've had them surgically altered.
I'm as much a man today as I was a year ago, before I had any surgery at all.
I'm as much a man today as I was two years ago, before I even started Testosterone.

I understand that this is something that most people have a hard time with because when they look a pre-everything trans person they "see" the gender assigned at birth, and so no, I'm not suggesting I should have been able to have everything changed without any transition steps what so ever, but I am suggesting that surgery doesn't "make" me a man, I've been a man all along.




"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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cynthialee

I must say I am plesently surprissed by the results of this poll. I expected it to be the other way around. Makes my heart warm.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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Tippe

Quote from: Miniar on June 01, 2011, 05:59:28 AM
I don't agree with reducing a person to their genitals and whether or not they've had them surgically altered.
I'm as much a man today as I was a year ago, before I had any surgery at all.
I'm as much a man today as I was two years ago, before I even started Testosterone.

I believe you're right.
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Lynne

We have a quite simple system here. Once two psychiatrists diagnose transsexualism and they think the patient is ready to live as his/her chosen gender they write the approval for name and sex change. There is an examination by the urologist(MTF) or gynecologist(FTM). With these papers one can start HRT and can apply for name and sex change. Once that's granted the new documents(birth certificate, ID, drivers license, etc...) are made and the person is legally male or female. No need for surgery or HRT to be legally recognized as your chosen gender the government trusts the psychiatrists in this matter(or just doesn't really care). SRS is an another matter though and it is decided by the doctors who do the surgery but generally they are more strict than the government.
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cynthialee

Quote from: Anne Caitlyn on June 01, 2011, 10:02:42 AM
We have a quite simple system here. Once two psychiatrists diagnose transsexualism and they think the patient is ready to live as his/her chosen gender they write the approval for name and sex change. There is an examination by the urologist(MTF) or gynecologist(FTM). With these papers one can start HRT and can apply for name and sex change. Once that's granted the new documents(birth certificate, ID, drivers license, etc...) are made and the person is legally male or female. No need for surgery or HRT to be legally recognized as your chosen gender the government trusts the psychiatrists in this matter(or just doesn't really care). SRS is an another matter though and it is decided by the doctors who do the surgery but generally they are more strict than the government.

This sounds like a functional system.
I could get behind these standards. It does however have some complications inherant. Mainly it favors those who can afford psychiatric counsiling. Most insurance will not cover GID related psych expenses here in the states.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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pixiegirl

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 01, 2011, 06:16:55 AM

Gender identification is the core component in identifying a person along with fingerprints and race.

The thing is, on most forms of identification it's utterly extraneous nowadays. Gender markers on things like passports or drivers licences were useful and necessary back before photographs. Now with photo and biometric ID, it's a pointless category on pretty much anything other than a birth cert. Need a gender marker on your social security file? Nope. Need it on drivers license? Nope. Need it on a passport? Nope. It's unnecessary.

Beyond that, people are going to judge you on how you look. But there is no necessity to carrying around a piece of paper with an M or F on it.
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Ann Onymous

Quote from: pixiegirl on June 01, 2011, 10:53:02 AM
The thing is, on most forms of identification it's utterly extraneous nowadays. Gender markers on things like passports or drivers licences were useful and necessary back before photographs. Now with photo and biometric ID, it's a pointless category on pretty much anything other than a birth cert. Need a gender marker on your social security file? Nope. Need it on drivers license? Nope. Need it on a passport? Nope. It's unnecessary.

Beyond that, people are going to judge you on how you look. But there is no necessity to carrying around a piece of paper with an M or F on it.

Not sure about you, but I PREFER that the F on the documentation ensures I should not be groped by a male when I travel.  I dare say MOST women in the world do not want to be groped by a male when THEY travel by air.  And yes, at least in the States, the actions of the TSA *DO* qualify as a groping that borders on a sexual assault.  I do not get anywhere NEAR that level of a search when I enter jails and prisons to meet with clients. 

There are other uses for the continuation of the current system, but it seems that too many want their utopian world to change for the whims of a few.   
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Miniar

Then why should the F on your ID "not" ensure your gender identity and wishes are respected?



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Lynne

#69
Quote from: cynthialee on June 01, 2011, 10:40:50 AM
This sounds like a functional system.
I could get behind these standards. It does however have some complications inherant. Mainly it favors those who can afford psychiatric counsiling. Most insurance will not cover GID related psych expenses here in the states.

The psychiatric care is free here, you have to go to the hospital and make an appointment with a local psychiatrist. If you are lucky you find one who understands this issue. That is usually not the case but it isn't impossible to find someone who can help. Transsexualism is still not a widely known and understood thing here, even among psychiatrists. Some of them can be quite harsh and they sometimes just tell you that you are just a gay transvestite or something like that without even listening to you. Of course, if you have money it is easier to find a psychiatrist who knows what to do, but they are mainly located in the capital city, which is not ideal for a lot of people.

I think the idea of our system is quite good and fair, and because of that I voted for the first option. Most of the medical staff in our country is seriously lacking the knowledge to help transsexuals, but  it's slowly getting better.

If I walk into a shop en femme I can't even pay with my credit card because they just don't believe that the card is mine until I prove them, thus outing myself to a few people in the area. This is just one of many quite awkward situations which could be avoided and totally unnecessary in my opinion. Luckily if I choose to transition that problem is solved for me.
What is there to gain by not letting people change their names and sex on their ID's before the surgery?
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MillieB

Anyone else now reading this thread as 'Legal recognition for No-hopers' ?

Just me then!  ::)
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Mika

Quote from: pixiegirl on June 01, 2011, 10:53:02 AM
The thing is, on most forms of identification it's utterly extraneous nowadays. Gender markers on things like passports or drivers licences were useful and necessary back before photographs. Now with photo and biometric ID, it's a pointless category on pretty much anything other than a birth cert. Need a gender marker on your social security file? Nope. Need it on drivers license? Nope. Need it on a passport? Nope. It's unnecessary.

Beyond that, people are going to judge you on how you look. But there is no necessity to carrying around a piece of paper with an M or F on it.
Exactly. Legal gender markers are never used for identification of cisgendered people, but are only used to harass non-cisgendered people. Appearance and presentation are applicable for physical and social identification, but having SRS does not outwardly change this (most people aren't checking your pants). While it is relatively accessible to change a US passport (with the major barriers of the binary-biased DSM, inhibitory costs of gender therapy, regionally variable availability of therapists, and medical contraindications with HRT), having conflicting documents brings harassment. Changing birth certificates, driver's licenses, and other legal documents are all governed by different bureaucratic agency policies, which vary state to state, sometimes with overlapping and ambiguous jurisdiction. For instance, in Ohio, no matter what I do, I can never change by birth certificate, but if I jump through the right hoops I can change my driver's licence. But I was born on a US military base, and so the rules are governed by the state of Ohio as well as the federal government. It's never simple in the US. There are no clear-cut "laws" governing these issues, but there are policies of agencies, of cities, of townships, of counties, of states, of federal agencies, and ever-changing case law.

In terms of gender-designated space, suspect activity should be grounds for removal, not an inability to urinate standing up, for example. If someone is being creepy, disruptive, or harassing people in a bathroom, kick them out, and the private owner of the restroom or patrons who were harassed (or both) can press charges if they choose to, or take non-legal action (banned from the facility etc). But forcing a non-op transman to use the women's restroom because they have not had either the privilege or the desire to have bottom surgery doesn't make sense. Some policies guiding gender recognition for transmen include having a metoidioplasty with urethral extensions (a surgery with higher costs and more complications). Basically, transmen are denied recognition in some jurisdictions because they cannot urinate standing up without artificial assistance. Why bathroom habits are basis for gender recognition, I will never understand, but it does not surprise me as long as the state polices bodies and identities.
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Ann Onymous

Quote from: Miniar on June 01, 2011, 11:34:53 AM
Then why should the F on your ID "not" ensure your gender identity and wishes are respected?

By deconstructing gender as some around here seem so want to have take place, there would not be any M or F on a license/ID...and in theory, that gives agencies the potential authority to simply grope without regard to the current provisions of law. 

Those of us who DO subscribe to a binary construct do NOT want the legal gender chaos that some seem to want reigning supreme. 

   
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Mika

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 01, 2011, 03:44:59 PM
By deconstructing gender as some around here seem so want to have take place, there would not be any M or F on a license/ID...and in theory, that gives agencies the potential authority to simply grope without regard to the current provisions of law. 

Those of us who DO subscribe to a binary construct do NOT want the legal gender chaos that some seem to want reigning supreme.
It is my opinion that the TSA should be abolished and replaced with private security that caters to the security needs as well as privacy considerations of patrons, not just instituting invasive and ineffective procedures that anyone can look up and avoid. But I'll avoid that tangent. The fact is, however, that not everyone is heterosexual, and assigning female TSA agents to violate female travelers and vice versa solves nothing. It really is just a failed attempt to try to make it easier for the public to swallow. If this is an issue, people should be able to make their preference known. If you'd rather be violated by a female officer than a male officer, your preference probably won't change with SRS.

Also, you can subscribe to an exclusively binary construct of gender without enforcing it with violence or threats of violence on those whose real-life identities, experiences and bodies don't fit in the male/female dichotomy. The state is an institution distinguished from private associations of individuals by (1) a monopoly of force and (2) institutionalized theft. You can believe what you want to believe, try to convince as many people as you want, invalidate as many identities as you want, but to advocate an institution of violence and theft to enforce your own opinions is a very different thing.

Removing sex from legal documents wouldn't bring chaos. It would really be rather minor in the change of day to day life for MOST people. For those for whom it would change, it would only mean the end of that aspect of their oppression.
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Mika

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 01, 2011, 09:15:00 AM
So what criteria should be used, that would work within the systems available today?
The systems available today are flawed, that is the point of offering any solution. Current systems are unaware of the needs, desires and realities of trans-identified and non-cisgendered people, and greatly privilege the cisgendered majority. Any alternative systems, such as the one you presented, are all attempts to address this.

The only criteria for gender is individual identity.
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Ann Onymous

I guess I am done with the thread...probably should have just left after having become one of the five.  Why people want a poll if the majority of respondents are only going to excoriate people for offering up their response is beyond me...
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Sarah Louise

I don't think society as a whole is ready for a third gender.

And I don't really want to do away with F or M markers on driver licenses or anything else.

I also don't think it should be "too" easy to change it, changing your gender marker is a serious thing and needs to be treated as such.  I also don't think we should be made to jump through "too" many hoops to have it done.

I might not be popular for thinking we need to have good and sufficient reasons to change our gender markers, but, I don't want it done on a whim or for people to go back and forth.  I do think it should be more consistent from state to state and there should be one clearing house that would take care of all your different forms of identification all at once.

Ok, go ahead, start shooting at me :)
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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Miniar

Quote from: Sarah Louise on June 01, 2011, 04:56:37 PM
I don't think society as a whole is ready for a third gender.

And I don't really want to do away with F or M markers on driver licenses or anything else.

I also don't think it should be "too" easy to change it, changing your gender marker is a serious thing and needs to be treated as such.  I also don't think we should be made to jump through "too" many hoops to have it done.

I might not be popular for thinking we need to have good and sufficient reasons to change our gender markers, but, I don't want it done on a whim or for people to go back and forth.  I do think it should be more consistent from state to state and there should be one clearing house that would take care of all your different forms of identification all at once.

Ok, go ahead, start shooting at me :)

I actually agree with you, for the most part.

I don't think society will become "ready" for a third gender before it's made available. I think that the only way that's ever "really" going to happen is to first let non binary people state that, and then the world'll get used to it rather quickly.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Anatta

Kia Ora,

::) I realise at times it can be quite frustrating  :icon_userfriendly: for "some" members to have their well thought out opinions "challenged" [especially when they are not use to being challenged  :eusa_naughty: ]...But hey we are all adults here [well mostly what can be considered adults anyway]...And they are only words on the computer screen,  :icon_userfriendly: we can either to become frustrated with what we read  :icon_punch: or just accept they are just other people's opinions, which like our own they have every right to express them...  :icon_bunch: :icon_flower:

  ::) Now where was I ???  ::) Oh yea, when it comes to having a system in place for legal recognition which covers the non opers[or no-hopers as Millie likes to call them  ;) ;D ]...The UK's "Gender Recognition"  may not be "perfect" but why reinvent the wheel that's already turning reasonably smoothly ? Here's how it works...

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/notes/contents

Thank you all for policing yourselves and thinking things through before voicing your "well thought out" opinions...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Mika

Quote from: Kay on June 01, 2011, 11:56:02 PM
.
While I dislike many actions that the government takes, that's a pretty extreme metaphor to use to describe law and taxes.  If any Joe/Jane cis-gendered individual were to peek in on this thread, I would not be at all surprised if they thought you were advocating anarchy and/or pulling down the current government.  (I'm not saying you are...but I am saying that if you're looking to maintain/start a constructive dialogue advocating for a certain change...as in gender markers...these sorts of extreme polarizing words aren't going to help your cause.)
I'm not using it as a metaphor, it's very literal. And I am a Rothbardian anarcho-capitalist with queer anarchy influences, with my basis in my ideology in the non-aggression axiom, the property corollary, the right to free-association, free contract, and self-determination in action and identity as long as it does not infringe upon the other principles. But that's not the point of this thread...

I took what you said to heart, and I don't want to be that guy over-posting and monopolizing the thread. It really was never my intent. I am the kind of person that gets sucked into discussions like these. I really love discussion, debate and writing: it's what I do, and it's not always appropriate, especially since the focus of this forum is support not debate. I don't want to cross that line here. My first reaction was to start writing a reply in rebuttal to the examples you cited, because I do have an opinion, but I want to make sure it's appropriate, and also give others a chance to respond. Perhaps I'll wait until tomorrow? Does that sound fair?
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