LGB vs T

[cynthialee]

Seriously?
You wish to place blood on my hands?
NO!
Just because YOU 'think' this does not make it true.

Being allied with anouther group does not cause deaths. To insinuate as much is not even within the realm of believability.

The T belongs squarely on the end of GLB. It has been there for years. There will not be a fractioning of factions any time soon. And it shouldn't.
There are plenty of T people who support the LGBT as a whole group and saying that said alliance is causing deaths is just wrong. Not too mention unsubstantiated.

It doesn't matter if the T is on the LGB, transwomen will be seen as gay men regardless. Hell I have a wife and I am assumed to be a gay male all the time. Know what? It doesn't take any skin off my nose. I know the truth of the matter.

Asking for the T to be removed from the LGB because it makes you uncomfortable ignores the feelings and opinions of others.

There are ALOT of transfolks who wholeheartedly support the LGBT. Asking the rest of us to stop being part of the organisation we support because you don't like it is not exactly playing nice now is it?

[Miniar]

Ever heard the term "Divide and conquer"?

If people who are oppressed for what amounts to the same reason (not behaving as society expects them to based on the genitals they were born with) start breaking up into smaller and smaller groups then they make themselves weaker for it.

If everyone who is oppressed would stand together and call for "Equal" rights, then equal rights would be within reach!

[Sarah Louise]

Truthfully I'm tired of the "infighting".  Each post "expresses" an individuals opinion about this issue.

TAKE IT AS THAT.

You don't have to agree, but be careful in how you phrase your responses.

ANY more name calling and this gets LOCKED.

Sarah L.

[Ann Onymous]

Asking for the T to be removed from the LGB because it makes you uncomfortable ignores the feelings and opinions of others.

There are ALOT of transfolks who wholeheartedly support the LGBT. Asking the rest of us to stop being part of the organisation we support because you don't like it is not exactly playing nice now is it?

was it playing nice to shove it on there over the objections of many of us way back when?  The current generation may not have been around to KNOW the difference.  Some of us DID go through all of our process in the days when it was just GLB...and had it not been for the fact that I was dyke-oriented (hung out in the Houston bars at the age of 15 back when the drinking age was still 18), I would not have had anything to do with the GLB community.  I remain in the community *not* because I was born with a T-related birth defect but instead precisely because I am lesbian. 

I find it more than mildly ironic that some of us are taken to task because we don't want the inclusion of trans in the alphabet soup and are allegedly ignoring the feelings of others when the alleged majority is doing the same precise thing to US.   

[Nero]

How does attaching T to LGB hurt me?

The big fear of mine is that I will be murdered because I will be mistaken for gay by a partner who freaks out on finding out.

The combination of 1) having T attached to GLB fuels that perception to the general public, and 2)  the joining of gender variance and sexual fluidity in an umbrella causes the public to believe we can be anything ...gives proof to the public that we are gay.

This is the perception as I see it.

I am binary minded and heterosexual. I am dating a man now I have had sexual intercourse with on 2 occasions. I have not disclosed to him because every time I disclose I am rejected because of the public's perception that T people are gay. I disclosed a number of times last year that I was post-op and was rejected each time. On one occassion, I was in fear for my life. I began taking an anti depressant in January because of it.

I awoke this morning with the dream that my partner was murdering me with a gun after finding out my past. I will be seeing him tonight ...and on and on it goes.

I dont know how to deal with it, other than trying to put it out of my mind.

I feel like I am not safe because of this association. It affects my ability to leave peacefully as a woman in intimate heterosexual relationships. Its a safety issue for me.

hugs,


Valerie

p.s. This is not a homophobic problem but a safety issue.

Valerie, I understand your concerns. You have very real safety concerns and I'm not trying to minimize that. And I'm not taking any kind of a stance here on whether the T should be attached to the LGB.

But a homophobic hetero man isn't likely to care whether the T is attached to the LGB. A homophobic date's concern isn't that trans women are gay, it's that they once had a male body. He doesn't care whether you are gay, he cares what he imagines being with someone 'born male' says about him. 
Do you really think a guy like that would check his rage because the T had been knocked off the LGB?

[cynthialee]

When the T was taged on the end there WERE T people who agreed with that.
Yes there were people who were vehemantly against said alliance but their voices were drowned out by those who disagreed with them.

No one group of transsexuals own the T. It is not the exclusive proprietary domain of hetero white trans women.

I would like to keep my share of the T on the end of the LGBT. Thank you very much.

[Ann Onymous]

No one group of transsexuals own the T. It is not the exclusive proprietary domain of hetero white trans women.

Nobody said it was...and let's face it, I have NEVER been in the 'hetero white woman' category.  Two out of three perhaps, but NEVER straight. 

I still find it interesting that some refuse to acknowledge that the irony that exists when a majority that claims that they are ignored by society as a whole refuses to acknowledge that they are the very same group that seeks to deliberately drown out those of us that think differently...but yet people like Val and I get accused of trying to marginalize people. 

[Sephirah]

I would advise caution with that line of argument, it's taking responsibility away from individuals for the actions they take.

It's also a false syllogism:

Heterosexual trans women get murdered by heterosexual men they're dating.
Heterosexual trans women are seen in public perception as gay men.
Therefore heterosexual trans women get murdered by heterosexual men they're dating because they're seen as gay men.

It's fundamentally flawed and based on fear rather than fact.

[Julie Marie]

By my calculations, the T should have been there all along.  Most likely that didn't happen because of the stigma attached to T.

As far as the gay angle, FA is right.  Every horror story I have read where a man finds out his partner was born male has an element in it of him freaking out because he was attracted to a guy and that makes HIM gay.  He has to prove he's not gay but was just duped and is angry because of it.  So he takes out his anger on the person who duped him.   That way he can prove to the world he's not gay and regain his social status as a ->-bleeped-<-got hater.

But there's another side of the whole gay thing: those of us who have zero physical attraction to those born of the same gender as we.  Guys are great for playing golf, telling bawdy jokes and moving furniture but they don't ignite even the slightest sexual spark in me.  But I doubt knowing that would keep some deranged transphobe from wanting to kick my teeth in.

And my sexual orientation puts me in the "L" group too.  (I like to joke by saying, "I was straight until I transitioned!")

Since there's an element of T in everyone within the LGBTIQ community (and elsewhere, I might add) it's a no-brainer that T is not only included but is also considered an integral part.  There is no coattail politics, no tagging along for the ride.  We are a very important part of the entire community because T is our commonality.

If I had my say I would simply campaign to wipe out discrimination, wipe out prejudice, wipe out hatred, wipe out ignorance.  And everyone who is a victim of one or more of those things will be better off, even outside of our community.  But that's like wishing for world peace.  For now I'll settle for baby steps and working to educate the ignorant one by one.

[JungianZoe]

Why don't everyone just take a deep breath and smile...?  I can understand impassioned viewpoints, but snipping, bickering, and one-upmanship aren't going to get us anywhere.  You'd think the pros and cons could be presented without attacking one another.

I know I'm adding nothing to this discussion, but please just remember that at the end of the day, we're all human beings doing our best to get through life.

[Sephirah]

Thanks, Sephirah. I hope it is. I hope I can find a way out of this line of thinking.

Honey, people will do what they will do. And you're not responsible for how a man you're dating acts. You can only be yourself. If someone's a scumbag with you then it's not because of who you are, or any generalised perception, but because of who they are as an individual. *hug*

[cynthialee]

I am in a polyamourous relationship and I am bisexual. I like to flirt with men and occasionaly sleep with a guy.

I also have been known to frequent the local gay bar.

I am just as much a potential target as a hetero transwoman. If not more so due to my associations. How many of us are beatten coming out of a known gay bar each year? Just had one in the pappers recently if I recall correctly.

The argument that it is only hetero trans women who are facing the risks is a fallacy.

EDIT:
Sorry to hear about that dream Val. That musta sucked beans big time.

[Nero]

Hi Nero,

I am working through my fears. I apologize for expressing my emotions so. It is embarrassing. I have to resolve it so I can move on and be happy.

No, I dont think a homophobic hetero man cares whether the T is attached to the LGB. I believe his perception has been affected by movement of the past 20 years. I dont think TS people in previous generations were murdered like they do today. There has to be a cause. All I'm asking is that we pause to consider why our trans women are being murdered.

I was triggered this morning by a dream of being murdered by my boyfriend who I am seeing tonight. I have to cope with that.

I apologize.

-Valerie

No need to apologize, hon. There's nothing wrong with expressing your concerns. I was just pointing out why I think they may be misplaced.

[Julie Marie]

One other thing I'd like to add...  It is the negative stigma that fuels the anger that results in people in our community to be harmed.  Even if the T wasn't such an integral part of the community and we chose to go it alone, changing that stigma would take decades upon decades.  We are a very tiny voice.

By riding side by side with the rest of our community, we have a far better chance of changing the negative stigma, and much faster too.  The transphobe/homophobe will still be a phobe if he/she so chooses.  So if we happen to come across one, it will always be the stigma that will incite them, not the truth.

Val, I feel for you.  And I understand your fears.  I'm happy for you being in a relationship you seem to enjoy and I hope you will always be treated as the woman you are.  But sometimes living in fear prevents us from enjoying life.  And there's always that element of a "guilty mind" kind of thing.  Don't put yourself in jeopardy but don't put yourself in jail either.  Enjoy what you have and just be yourself.

[tekla]

We are harmed violently by heterosexual men.

No.

We are harmed by violent men.  It's the violent streak, not the sexuality that does it. 
P.S.  There is a lot of domestic violence in the gay community also.

[cynthialee]

I will admit that more of the assailants are men but that is not always the case.
Just recently we have had reports of women involved in violent trans bashings in the news.

[cynthialee]

[Maga Girl]

Gay = Trans women 

[Julie Marie]

We are harmed violently by heterosexual men.

There is plenty of evidence men who have gay or bi tendencies but cannot accept that turn to transwomen to fulfill their needs.  When someone in their life finds out the woman they are dating was born male they respond by pretending they didn't know.  Most guys will just break it off at that point but the fringe cases will resort to violence, the level of their insecurities being so great they become completely irrational.

I believe, in time, the whole LGBTIQ phenomena will be sufficiently understood by the average person, so long as we stay united.  Already the distinction between sexual orientation and gender identity is being made in the media.  Most people can't yet wrap their heads around it, even though it's not that hard to understand if you're listening.  But most people aren't listening because they have enough on their plate already.

It will always be the extremophobes who will give the misunderstood the most trouble.  They are typically non-listeners and therefore uneducated but those we hear from are most often people in positions of power, appealing to the emotional (and therefore reactionary) side of their followers, hoping for financial support to fight off the enemy.  And it works.  Some of these people (often political and religious figures) are closeted gays who know coming out will mean the loss of their supporters, their job, their power and their wealth. 

Our opponents wear all different kinds of clothing and come in all sizes.  That's why we have to be ever vigil.

[ToriJo]

I'm not T, just an SO in a heterosexual relationship.  Also not L or G, but maybe B.  So feel free to ignore this.

The reason homosexuality is persecuted has little to do with the fact that some people like the same sex (don't yell at me yet!).  It has everything to do with the fact that liking the same sex (or, worse, actually *having* sex with the same sex) is a violation of the expectations others have on a person based upon the socially acceptable gender roles for someone of the person's perceived gender.

Basically, a gay man is wrong in the bigot's eyes because he's not acting like a man.  The transgender woman is wrong for the same reason - she's not acting like a man (the bigot sees her as a man).  But in both cases, gender stereotypes are being enforced upon the victim by a third party, and these stereotypes are just not based in truth.  In one case, the stereotype about what partners are acceptable for a man is a bogus stereotype about men.  In the other, the premise is wrong - she's female, not male.  But a huge chunk of the problem is that the stereotypes are enforced, not just that the wrong one is applied.

There are differences in the subgroups that make up LGBT*.  L's have different issues than G's (for instance, they have the double minority status of being women *and* lesbian), which makes things different.  B's are different than L's or G's, because they don't really fit nice neat categories.  "I don't know who I might be attracted to tomorrow' isn't easy for people to understand.  And obviously T's have issues that others don't (although there are many different subgroups of T's that have different issues from each other - I'd say an MTF vs. FTM's experiences differ in significant ways, that people who want to live between-genders/without-gender/both-gender/other-gender are often not having the same experiences as other T's, cross-dressers have different issues and concerns than other T's, etc.  Even within the T community, I can see even as an outsider that not everyone who identifies as part of "T" considers everyone else who identifies as part of "T" to be a legitimate member.  But somehow it's only okay for T's to ally themselves with a group that is more cohesive than T is itself?

Now there are also differences.  There are issues which are just G issues, or just L issues, or just B issues, or just T issues.  But there are also issues that affect everyone who has violated someone else's idea of what gender roles are acceptable.  And then there are issues that transcend LGBT people and include other groups.  None of this is a bad thing.

If an entire group all agreed and respected everyone else in that group, I'd probably call it a cult.

I'd say join a group and support them when they are doing the right things.  Go your own way when they are not.  You might go back and forth with the same group, supporting some of what they do one day, while fighting against it the next.  Nothing wrong with that.  It's how you know you aren't in a cult.