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Genetics??

Started by Jan, May 28, 2011, 09:28:08 AM

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Jan

Im very interested in researching this possibility if i can find anything.
Im 49, single gay woman but was married to a man as i always thought I was bi from 17, maybe i still am but much prefer women just recently.
Anyway that resulted in 2 children now 24 and nearly 20. The oldest (m-f) has been transitioning for approx 6 or 7 years and has a male partner and thankfully now very happy but is still pre-op though she seems pretty ok with the stage she has reached but often seems reluctant to talk about it, which is unusual because my kids have always known they can come to me with anything and usually they do.
My youngest has always had various issues and I always knew there was something wrong, Ive had experience of negative mental health and all that goes with it and now work in the field. Anyway, he recently confided that he feels transgender too.
He has an appointment at gender clinic, I talked to him, asked questions, at first I was sceptical and think it could be down to something else but have reassured him that the staff at the clinic will help and support and work out whats going on his head and thankfully he seems happier already just for getting some help after 20 long years and so am I!
I learned so much about it and I understand it and the issues that go with it a thousand per cent. (As some know others arent quite so understanding, and there's me in the middle usually having to explain what it is, why it happens etc, phew!!)
Anyway, back to the subject, I often wonder if there is something in it, I have known others from same family where 2 siblings were gay, coincidence? Who knows?
My kids both identify as bi or as my oldest once said, its not about sex, its not about the other persons gender, what theyve got down below, but about loving and being attracted to another person, which i thought was a great way of putting it.
There is no-one else in our immediate family with trans issues as far as I know or who is or has come out as gay or bi.
There is ongoing research in why someone is transgendered but its often thought the brain doesnt develop in the womb to match the body. I have a very interesting tv documentary where they look at all aspects and scientists analysing donated brains where they found that the hypothalamus was female in shape and size in m-f and vice versa.
Anyway, is our family a coincidence or is it down to genes? I dont know and havent researched it yet but will update with news.
Jan x 
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AbraCadabra

Well Jan,
here my 10 pennies worth. The best we seem to know this far is that BSTc area of hypothalamus is affected (sort of reversed) in trans-people. Your comment +++  ... that the hypothalamus was female in shape and size in m-f ... +++ gets close to what studies have so far revealed.

The question really is: Why would that be so?

Best guess is that during foetal development 3 - 4 month due to hormonal imbalance in the mother it can happen.
In my particular case that also fits as my mother went through major emotional stress and upheava just then. IT can also be an issue with food related issues - well why not that too.

Without pointing finger maybe you can try go back in your case during that time and find ~some~ explanation?

Genetics in trans issues seem to have been ruled out at present, for all I know. Different issue with sexual orientation (gay, bi, hetero), it being considered a mix of "nature & nurture"

Also physical sex (between legs), brain sex (BSTc area of hypothalamus), and affectional orientation (gay, bi, straight) are really independent of each other! Something I notice you seem to blend, as a lot of people tend to do.

So first knowing: All three items are really separate, for all that's known these days.

Take care,
Axelle
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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Jan

Thanks for reply, ive seen something recently about development in the womb being interrupted. I know sexual orientation and transgender issues are 2 different things entirely but can often go together as with my children and also meeting others both transgender and gay/bi.
Ive also always been interested in why someone would prefer someone of the same sex, or both sexes, why does it happen? Is there a similar reason?  I DO like being a woman though, also being attracted to other women, I only worry about other people's attitudes but never really experienced any homophobia, most especially around my age or under see it as normal and are accepting.
So maybe development in the womb, (I could have been stressed due to problems in marriage at the time!) other life issues or maybe there is no explanation, maybe it just happens as a part of nature and nature itself is diverse.
Lots of love to all Jan x   
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Jan

I know what you mean though, just everything, such as Pride events always have the tagline "LGBT," (Lesbian, gay, bi, trans,) whether its correct or not, always lumped into one group. I DO know that when I go to Manchesters gay village all the gay, bi, trans people dont seem to have a problem with being lumped into one specific group, and again, its often about other people's prejudice and acceptance, the last time we were there some young underage lowlife's thought it would be a good idea to hurl abuse at some of the people making their way home, disgusting.
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AbraCadabra

Hi Jan,
in fairness we all have own issues with acceptance. Often a fine line. Take self, t-girl but have issues with CDs (too close to the bone?) have tough time imagine switching between two genders and find it GREAT kick.
Worst (for me) called "femme-bear" by their own naming. All biker leathers, moustache, lipstick and pink tutu.
Find it very derogatory being woman (ok, transwoman). This stuff rolled out on such as "Pride Parade". Many go hahaha, sorry not me. Different "humour"? Please help!
So yes, be dishonest to say all washes fine with me? All have our limitations. Just no need to mix with everything. To confusing for my poor girlie head. Only can deal with so much.

But enquiring mind is a good thing – and then choose what we can honestly deal with. May even change over time too.

"It is woman's prerogative..." see under my avatar :-)
Take care,
Axelle
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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Cindy

Hi Jan
Nice post from a nice person.
The genetics of sexual differences are obscure and not researched very well. I',m a medical researcher and getting funding for 'big' stuff is virtually impossible and the research bodies do not regard TG as of any importance. But anecdotal stuff, your own family obviously suggest a link, is this cause or effect? You have lived and let your children live a tolerant accepting life style, so have they accepted a life style they like or one that was genetically engineered? Impossible to answer. I know of a few families, and very few, were twins were born sexually male and both were TG.  There are several studies of gay male twins, some hold up others don't.

I think we are getting interested in what we call micro events. During the babies development something happens that affects an organ whatever and we are born differently. One thing is for sure  ouer bodies are ruled by genetic changes during critical times.

Sorry if this is unhelpful

Cindy 
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justmeinoz

Just my "2 bobs worth", I am MtF and my son is FtM.  Ex wife is now in a long term Lesbian relationship.  Daughter is the only one in the family who is "normal!"

Given that my father was in the Army  (at the end of the Korean War) and away helping fight floods while my mother was pregnant, there could have been stresses there.  Looking back I can't think of anything that could have affected my wife's pregnancy with our now son.

As Cindy said, it's not likely that there will be heaps spent on TS research any time soon.

Karen.
"Don't ask me, it was on fire when I lay down on it"
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ToriJo

I'll add that there isn't conclusive evidence of a single cause (genetic or otherwise) of being trans - or being gay or bi.

I sometimes think that the people insisting that being gay is a genetic thing (often LGBT advocates) are going to end up hurting at least a sizable minority if it is found that not everyone who identifies as gay has the "gay gene" or whatever it actually is.  If there was a gay gene, but some specific person didn't have it, would that mean that they shouldn't be attracted to whoever they are attracted to?

For trans- people, that's even more important.  It should be my right to live my life as I want, as the gender I want.  I wouldn't think focusing only on genetics would support that view.  Sure, it might have a huge genetic component.  But even if it usually was genetic, I wouldn't want genetics used as a gate that determined who was "really" trans and who wasn't.  I think there are too many gates already.

Personally, I think there's at the least a component that is rooted in genetics, for both sexual orientation and gender identity - likely a very powerful component.  I suspect that one day someone who's mind's sex doesn't match their body sex will be recognized as being intersexed (after all, the brain is the most powerful sex organ - but today that isn't seen as a "legitimate" intersexed condition, unfortunately).  But I have zero evidence to back up what I'm saying, and if there are people for whom it truly is a choice (albeit I suspect that to be a small group compared to the group for whom it is not), I wouldn't want to imply that they have less right or less authenticity than anyone else in living as they want.

As an aside, I suspect many people here have never told their parents until they had no choice - so in many cases parents don't know.  It says a lot about your relationship with them, and very possibly may have saved their lives.  As for orientation, I have learned that labeling the attraction is less important than being honest when your heart calls (there would be a lot less violent anti-LGBT people out there if people weren't themselves trying desperately to deny their attractions).  I can't say I always thought that way, but hopefully it's one of the more positive things about growing up that has happened in my life.
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kate durcal

Every time I read or hear the "...the hormonal imbalance in the mothers womb" BS I feel like screaming, ARGH!!

I am an expert in genetics, I actually earned a living doing the research stuff, so do listen to me if you want a summary of what science knows now. I stopped posting on the subject because as incredible as it may sound some of the people in this forum refuse to believe what is so, and rather forge ago with some mickey mouse explanations on the cause of gender identity disorder.

First disclaimer is that most of what we currently know has come in the last 10 yeas,r and thus the story is far from complete. Second disclaimer s that in order to make it more understandable, I am lumping animal studies with human studies.

First we need to separate sexual orientation from gender orientation. I am going to talk only about gender identity.

The BST size (male bigger, smallest female) is determined before week 9 in uterus by the presence or absence and amounts of Testosterone (T) and Estrogen (E), by the presence or absence of steroid (T&E) receptors in the surface of the embryonic BST cells, by the presence or absence of the steroid bind protein alpha feto protein 1 (aF1), and by the presence or absence of a protein (aromatase) inside the embryonic BST cells. With this information on hand, then this is what happens to generate either a female or a male BST:

Let's start by the simple one. If you are an XX individual and you have normal levels of aF1, then the local levels of both T and E are nearly zero. In the absence of T&E  the embryonic BST cell do not divide and grown and after week 8 your BST is female. Nothing after that can change the BST. But if there is not enough aF1 then you will be a FTM, a male in a female body

For the complicated male pathway several thing have to happens simultaneously: there has to be high  levels of T&E and little or none of aF1, there have to be receptors for T&E on the surface of th embryonic BST cells  so that T&E can be brought inside the embryonic BST cells, once inside the BST cell the T has to be converted into E (yes, into E!) by the action of Aromatase enzyme; then E goes into the nucleus of the embryonic BST cell and induces them to divide and grow to become a male BST. Failure to express a fully functional aromatase protein, or to have receptors for T&E, or low level of T&E, and the BST will be female, you get a MTF, or female person in a a male body.

So, finally, for the genetics. Mutations on the T&E receptor genes, or the AF1 gene, or the aromatase gene, they all would result in individuals who are transgender. The aromatase gens has indeed been found to be mutated in MTF. It seems that gender idenity is not a simply trait governed by a single gene but rather a poly-genetic trait, thus the genetics of it is going to be complicated to elucidate. There anecdotal evidence in the medical literature that indicates that indeed transgender like homosexuality does runs in some families, but much work remains.
Love,

Kate D, MD PhD


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Jan

Thanks for replies. lots of interesting stuff. Youngest goes for 1st appointment tomorrow. I'll post how he gets on. lotsa love to all xx
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Padma

For what it's worth, me, my brother, and my half-sister are all bisexual (and at least two of us are polyamorous ;D) - and we share the same homophobic father. Funny old world.
Womandrogyne™
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