It's a serious question. Hear me out please.
The Merriam Webster definition of transgender is:
of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth.
It seems that being transgender hinges on the sex you're assigned at birth versus the gender identity you experience afterward. If they don't match, you're transgender; if they do match you're cisgender.
Children are typically assigned a sex at birth based solely on the appearance of their genitals. But science has concluded that a person's physical sex constitutes more than just the appearance of the genitals; the sexual differentiation of the brain is critical in establishing sexual identity. Be that as it may, children are raised as the gender that's associated with their assigned sex. If they are uncomfortable living as that gender, sooner or later they choose to transition to their preferred gender. They are by definition transgender.
But, let's consider the same child who is assigned a sex not simply on the appearance of her genitals, but on a comprehensive scan of her body and brain which reveals that she's likely to identify as female as a child. Given the results of the scan, and knowing how important it is to make the right gender assignment, her parents agree to record 'female' on her birth certificate and name her Lily. She is raised as a girl. She grows up happy as a girl except for the fact that one day, to her consternation, she discovers that her girl friends don't have penises. She accepts her parents' explanation for the anomaly and what they can do to correct it later on, and she remains a happy, well-adjusted girl.
By definition, Lily is not transgender because she's happily living as a girl; a girl with a penis, but a girl nevertheless. Still, she'd like her private parts to be like other girls, so as puberty approaches, at her request, and with confirmation from her psychologist that she's indeed a happy, well adjusted girl, her parents make arrangements with a medical team to place her on female hormones and to surgically reconstruct her genitalia to match her gender identity. It all takes place without anyone knowing about it. There's no coming out, no social transition, no controversy over bathroom use. Lily is the same girl she's always been.
One could argue she's a transsexual woman since her male genitals were converted to female, but the label doesn't quite fit either. She's not undergoing sexual reassignment because she was assigned female at birth based on the scan that showed she was born with a female brain, the most immutable sexual organ. Lily is cisgender, just as other intersex people are who are assigned the correct gender at birth despite their congenital condition.
I present this not so hypothetical thought experiment to make a point. The point is that being transgender is not an inherent attribute of a person. It is a consequence of having been assigned the wrong gender at birth. It's not as much an error of nature, as it is human error; understandable, given our limited understanding of sex and gender and lacking the technology to make better decisions, but an error nonetheless.
Many intersex children grow up perfectly happy people. Some aren't even aware of their intersexuality. Few people know that Julia Child was genetically male (XY chromosomes). She had a congenital condition CAIS (complete androgen insensitivity syndrome). She was born with female external genitalia so assigned female at birth. She was raised happily as a girl. Only her 6'-2" stature and infertility hinted at her intersex condition. Had her androgen insensitivity been partial, she might have been assigned male at birth despite having a female brain, and suffered gender dysphoria.
I contend that the official definition of intersex should include as one of its conditions, the sexual differentiation of the brain opposite the sexual differentiation of the gonads. The brain structure of males and females are demonstrably different which accounts for at least some people questioning their gender, experiencing gender dysphoria, transitioning genders, and battling the intolerance of an uninformed population.
Based on the Christian definition of birth. At conception. WE are all women. Having dangling parts down the line don't matter. So this basically blows apart their objection based on the Bible.
This is a complicated one, but here is what I think. As a community we refer to women that are born female naturally, but since we as trans have a female brain.......in a way we could say that we are cis-gender. Are we fully cis obviously not as said what dangles below does not define me any less female as any other. This would be all complicated if we asked people what gender they think intersex individuals are? I say they are like most of us, let them decide when they are older. We don't need to do it for them.
I think that using dictionary definitions as the basis for logical arguments can lead to sophistry.
In Clara Kay's hypothetical situation, Lily has a female mind in a male body. The fact that she does not know that fact does not mean that she is not transsexual or transgender. It just means that she does not suffer from gender dysphoria.
In my case, I was eight years old before I found out that boys and girls have different genitalia. At the time I was dysphoric not about my genitalia but about my clothes and hair. I was still a girl in a boy's body, though, even though I didn't know it.
PS Intersex is a somewhat different and more complicated issue but Lily is not intersex, as I understand it.
Quote from: Clara Kay on December 08, 2017, 01:04:34 PM
I present this not so hypothetical thought experiment to make a point. The point is that being transgender is not an inherent attribute of a person. It is a consequence of having been assigned the wrong gender at birth. It's not as much an error of nature, as it is human error; understandable, given our limited understanding of sex and gender and lacking the technology to make better decisions, but an error nonetheless.
There is apparently a Canadian couple requesting not to have their child's gender given on its birth certificate, or in other words for their child to "remain genderless". By the rationale above, this child could not be transgender because transgenderism is a consequence of incorrect gendering at birth. But if the child does happen on the offchance to be a transsexual they will still have an issue with brain-body disconnect regardless of what's on the birth certificate, and in that case would still classify themselves/be diagnosed as such when seeking medical treatment and therapy, wouldn't they.
There are some that decide that once they have had SRS, they are no longer transgender. They consider themselves cured, and therefore, cisgender. Largely, the matter relates to semantics.
Quote from: Viktor on December 08, 2017, 05:20:22 PM
There is apparently a Canadian couple requesting not to have their child's gender given on its birth certificate, or in other words for their child to "remain genderless". By the rationale above, this child could not be transgender because transgenderism is a consequence of incorrect gendering at birth. But if the child does happen on the offchance to be a transsexual they will still have an issue with brain-body disconnect regardless of what's on the birth certificate, and in that case would still classify themselves/be diagnosed as such when seeking medical treatment and therapy, wouldn't they.
Yes, I agree with your reasoning, Viktor. Brain-body misalignment would require medical treatment. But by definition, the child is not transgender because no gender transition is called for. If she's not transgender, then she's cisgender, not being unhappy with the gender she was assigned at birth. The child may still experience dysphoria, though, if nothing is done to align her body and brain. The question remains, is she transsexual? I say no because her sex was declared female at birth. There is no sex change, only a surgical procedure to correct an congenital defect. The situation is analogous to an intersex child born with ambiguous genitalia but assigned the correct gender at birth. The child may still seek surgery at some point to normalize his or her genitals according to their gender identity.
It's because trans people are often treated like pariahs that people quite understandably want to disavow the trans term. It all comes down to how society treats us. I could call myself cisgender all I want or someone else could define me that way, but if society still treats me as a "man in a dress" and/or different to a cisgender woman, then what does it matter? It would remain rhetorical, theoretical and hypothetical.
sorry to revive such an ancient thread, i know it's a no-no, but the curiosity is killing me and i haven't been able to find any sources about Julia Child being intersex. could you post your source on that? i'd love to read up on it myself. thanks
Hello Verycuriousgeorge My name is
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Quote from: verycuriousgeorge on April 05, 2024, 06:22:10 PMsorry to revive such an ancient thread, i know it's a no-no, but the curiosity is killing me and i haven't been able to find any sources about Julia Child being intersex. could you post your source on that? i'd love to read up on it myself. thanks
There is no need to be sorry for reviving an ancient thread. In fact I'm glad you did, because it allows me to broaden my knowledge and I have never seen this thread and it intrigues me very much, that I'm inclined to provide my opinion on this topic.
The original poster Miss Clara has not been on for a long time and Susan's suffered a crash where a lots of posts no longer exist and information on when members where last logged on. The reference to "Julia Child" only basically yields to the famous chef. Her medical condition is not mentioned. Unless Miss Clara comes back with the source. Then I'm afraid you are out of luck.
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Hi Everyone and VeryCuriousGeorge I found a link with reference for Julia Child, the second slide contains the reference by Veronica Drantz, PhD.
- INTERSEX PEOPLE - Who Are They? (https://www.slideshare.net/drdrantz/intersex-people-who-are-they?from_search=2)
Love and HugsSarah BOfficial Greeter
Quote from: Sarah B on April 05, 2024, 11:46:29 PMHi Everyone and VeryCuriousGeorge
I found a link with reference for Julia Child, the second slide contains the reference by Veronica Drantz, PhD.
- INTERSEX PEOPLE - Who Are They? (https://www.slideshare.net/drdrantz/intersex-people-who-are-they?from_search=2)
Love and Hugs
Sarah B
Official Greeter
Interesting! Thank you for linking that. How curious... I wonder where this information came from, I wish there was maybe some sort of interview with Julia where she disclosed this information, something directly or indirectly from her... the only thing I managed to find was this nothingburger Instagram post. (https://www.instagram.com/p/C3lB-x_ON-Y/?igsh=cjZvcnJxdTRtdDA2) If only OP was still active!
Hi VeryCuriousGeorge You are right there are no citations in the three stated areas namely:
- Miss Clara (Post)
- Intersex People (slide No 2 and Slide No 41)
- Instagram (Post)
So in conclusion, there is no credible information that Julia Child is intersex.
HugsSarah BOfficial Greeter@verycuriousgeorge
I would agree that there is no evidence. I suspect it is just an internet rumor.
She was known for making homophobic comments until a friend died of AIDS. At that point, she began supporting LGBTQ rights. Since she worked for the OSS (CIA) for many years, and her file was totally declassified in 2008, there would be some evidence there. But there is no mention? I call BS.
Welcome, George!
There is very little use in worrying about, or trying to assign, someone else's gender.
Hugs, Devlyn
@Devlyn Well said, Devyln!
Sometimes we forget that our identity is how we see ourselves and it is not always apparent in the way we present to the world. Thanks for the reminder.
Hugs!
The answer is simply NO, you cannot be cisgender and transgender period. If you are one you are effectively not the other. Very simple.
Quote from: titan on May 06, 2024, 05:02:14 PMThe answer is simply NO, you cannot be cisgender and transgender period. If you are one you are effectively not the other. Very simple.
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No. I cannot understand how that is possible.
Hi Everyone
There is no way, period, 'that a trans woman can be cisgender' You will always be cisgender (in other words your biological sex remains the same) regardless of what you do with you your body. (trans woman is just a description for some).
Nature or nurture stuffed up my body and I accept that unconditionally, you know what they say about; "female brain in a male body". Well I'm a female, always have been and always will be. Not 'Trans' ever.
Take care and all the best for the future.
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Sarah B
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Hello TitanMy name is
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Take care and all the best for the future.
Once again, Welcome to Susan's Place!Sarah BOffical Greeter@LoriDee @Northern Star Girl @titan
First off, let's get a better definition of Transgender.
"Transgender and gender nonconforming1 (TGNC) people are those who have a gender identity that is not fully
aligned with their sex assigned at birth." - American Psychological Association
Guidelines for Psychological Practice With Transgender and Gender Nonconforming People (https://www.apa.org/practice/guidelines/transgender.pdf)
We must also define the term "cisgender"; "Distinct from TGNC, the term "cisgender" is used to refer to people whose sex assigned at birth is aligned with their gender identity (E. R. Green, 2006; Serano, 2006)" (Links are found in the noted PDF above.
In the fictional case of "Lily" we must account for a few things:
1) The person is a child
2) The person does not choose their assigned gender at birth
3) The person does not designate their assigned gender upon a birth certificate at the time of birth
4) The person was born with the genitalia classically assigned to, and thus designating, one of the male gender or sex (depending on the wording of the birth certificate)
5) Lily's parents are >-bleeped-<s
The fact that "Lily" is happy with the way things are is key here. She is still not CIS because when you are young, you have no concept of gender, let alone what is "normal", as demonstrated by her surprise upon seeing a naked person that did not match up with her genetic makeup. However, the gender assigned is "male" as noted in your story, and as noted by the biological makeup of the person. The fact that they grew up as a "happy little girl" says that her "gender identity does not align with her assigned gender" thus Lily is transgender, even if she does not know it.
Now, her parents take it upon themselves to do LIFE ALTERING surgery on a "HAPPY LITTLE GIRL". She was still happy, so now she knows and she's still happy! It's not up to mom and dad to take little Lily and remove her options in life before she even understands that she has options!
I know teenagers who thought they were transgender for YEARS! They then opted to stay their assigned gender. These people are usually under the umbrella of "questioning" which is a wonderful thing! Exploring ones gender, ones sexuality is a part of being human! If Lily is denied this, she will not get to find out what she wants or what she is.
It's quite possible that Lily has been raised to be female, or at least to be a pretty feminine person as there are those whose parents raise kids to be masculine or men. I of course am referring to stereotypes and not to reality. I know that I've never been accused of being manly (despite my parents best efforts) yet I know people that are the spitting image of their parents and that's because that's what their parents wanted. Girls that fight, drink beer and can fix your truck and guys who can cook, sew and decorate... stereotypes suck.
Check out https://margaretmuirauthor.blogspot.com/2014/09/its-fact-all-boys-were-once-called.html if you want a fun bit of history when Girl was what you called a boy and Gay was what you called a girl. Fun!
Back to Lily.
Lily, if left alone, could easily grow up to be a cisgender guy. They could grow up to be straight, gay, bi and anything in between or left/right/above/below or slightly to the side like. They could indeed be transgender but opt not to transition, or maybe just start HRT. Or maybe go for the whole package deal!
Heck, Lily could have been someone's dad and still did all of the above!
The whole point is that Mom and Dad stole all of this from them. And the fact that they named the baby Lily says that they had this all planned from the start. When the doctor asks the baby's name, they don't expect a kid to be named Marcus if there's no penis or Jennifer if there is. And please, no Playstation 2... yeah, someone changed their name to Playstation 2... they must feel silly now with the PS5 out.
In short, let Lily get old enough to decide for themselves with the mental capacity to do so. Then if anything is to be done, that decision is between Lily, the therapist and doctors along with the parents. The government shouldn't be involved, but that's for another day.
Unfortunately, this was Lily's fate. Lily may end up reversed. The mind of a man and the body of a woman, infertile and having to transition... again. It's my hope that our fictional child grows up to be an author writing a tell all book and then sues the crap out of mom and dad and whatever doctors decided that chopping up a kid who thinks My Little Pony is real, is a good idea.