I almost got up the courage to use the ladies room while out shopping. Just as I was heading into the restroom a little girl sitting in a shopping cart said your a boy out loud. Thanks you little brat. >:( Ended up cowardly going into the guys restroom. I got more than a few strange looks. :embarrassed: I was dressed in a short skirt and a girl cut pink tee with my handbag.
I guess some even teach their kids how to spot us out in the real world or I'm just over thinking everything. I was most of the time gendered correctly for a change up till that point. Now it might be a long time before I get up the courage to try again.
Lisa
You know I can honestly say that I still have problems using the restroom in public I think it's because we spend so long programming ourselves that boy body goes to boys room and that's a problem we shouldn't have to think that way we are women even if our bodies do not agree we are women and I do have some places to wear a lot of people know me and know that I'm transitioning and don't mind that I use the ladies room like where I get my prescriptions filled I've walked into the restroom or been heading towards the restroom and one of the pharmacist will be walking into the restroom and she won't the door for me and ask me how I'm doing today but yes it is very tough especially when a little kid calls you out but if your profile photo is how you look normally I don't see how anybody could see you as a guy you look completely feminine to me
If you can't accept yourself, how can you expect others to accept you?
This whole restroom deal is blown out of proportion by uneducated people and it makes our lives a lot harder than it needs to be.
I don't even know why do we need gendered restrooms at all. Stalls have doors with locks, people go in the restroom to do their business behind those closed doors, so nobody can see anything inappropriate anyway.
Quote from: Lynne on December 08, 2018, 07:40:51 PM
This whole restroom deal is blown out of proportion by uneducated people and it makes our lives a lot harder than it needs to be.
I don't even know why do we need gendered restrooms at all. Stalls have doors with locks, people go in the restroom to do their business behind those closed doors, so nobody can see anything inappropriate anyway.
Honestly I don't think it's only uneducated people it's the perverts that go in there that are not transgender that like to dress up as women and put cameras in the Stalls and try to rape women and all this other
>-bleeped-< they're the ones that make us look bad they're the reasons why we're uncomfortable using the ladies were like we're supposed to
If you can't accept yourself, how can you expect others to accept you?
The hard part is living in a state that is unfriendly toward trans people. NC had the big HB2 battle. HB2 created a lot of media attention. All this attention created a bit of hostile environment for transgender people in NC.
Lisa
Quote from: Aceofblackdiamonds on December 08, 2018, 08:24:51 PM
The hard part is living in a state that is unfriendly toward trans people. NC had the big HB2 battle. HB2 created a lot of media attention. All this attention created a bit of hostile environment for transgender people in NC.
Lisa
I can't even imagine the state I live in generally is accepting transgender and LGBT people I live in Kentucky
If you can't accept yourself, how can you expect others to accept you?
Restrooms are a major concern.
It should only be a concern for us but it was made an issue and now there is contention with non trans people where before there was none.
My personal opinion, if you are accepted you belong. Be a girl though please. It can feel incredibly invasive having someone who is not even trying to be female in the bathroom. I say this and I know that I will go to the Keystone Conference next year and find toilet seats up in the ladies room. I have seen ladies nervous and uncomfortable in the women's restroom. Not fun and should never happen.
It is unfortunate that the child outed you though, it sounds like you are at the juncture where it is time to move away from the land of urinals. It gets easier. One day you will not even question which restroom to use and neither will anyone else. I understand your fear though. It got to the point when men were climbing into the urinal when I walked in. Had them practically screeching that this was the men's room and finally had an usher chase me into the men's room, 'Ma'am, ma'am, the ladies room is across the hall!' Before I went to the women's bathroom.
The child is not to blame, but should also not be a deterrent from going into the ladies room next time. It is a process, and this is just one of many steps.
I have never had an issue using public restrooms, although it was a bit intimidating walking through that door the first few times! Don't hesitate, be confident. Don't act like you are supposed to be there, KNOW you are supposed to be there. Go in, do your business as a lady (sit), then wash up and leave.
Some children seem to have x-ray vision and can clock us when most of the world accepts us, just ignore them.
If you are presenting as a woman, the safest place for you is the ladies room.
I saw a video recently where someone pointed out that the number of US Congressmen convicted of crimes in public restrooms is far greater than the number of transgender folks who have been convicted (as far as I know this number is ZERO).
Quote from: IAmM on December 08, 2018, 08:34:07 PM
I say this and I know that I will go to the Keystone Conference next year and find toilet seats up in the ladies room.
If it helps, janitors will often leave the seat up after they clean, I think it's so they can quickly tell if the bathroom has been used since the previous time they went there. I work in a heavily male environment so I often find the seat up in the ladies room.
And as to the OP's point. What helped me was having an accepting workplace. I got so used to using the ladies room there that when I'm out and about I don't even think about it. It's all about "knowing" that you belong there.
Quote from: Arianna Valentine on December 08, 2018, 08:28:25 PM
I can't even imagine the state I live in generally is accepting transgender and LGBT people I live in Kentucky
I know what you mean about Kentucky. My family has land outside of Keltner in Adair County for as long as I can remember. I think the original intent was to farm the land but no one ever did, we lease it out but for the original house on the property. Seriously, most standoffish and at the same time friendliest people that I have ever met. Damn those chiggers though.
It may be tough but, they accept their own right? Come whatever may. I went back last summer and no one even noticed I was trans, but no one recognized me either so that kinda sucked.
Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on December 08, 2018, 08:42:23 PM
If it helps, janitors will often leave the seat up after they clean, I think it's so they can quickly tell if the bathroom has been used since the previous time they went there. I work in a heavily male environment so I often find the seat up in the ladies room.
And as to the OP's point. What helped me was having an accepting workplace. I got so used to using the ladies room there that when I'm out and about I don't even think about it. It's all about "knowing" that you belong there.
I can see that happening. Not the case here I wouldn't think, the place is packed and no one is cleaning the bathroom at 1 pm when girls have been going in and out for the last hour and the bathroom is still full. Honestly, I saw it happen waaaaay too many times those three days to be the janitorial staff. I am not blaming anyone but really, don't you think that being a dude in the ladies room hurts us all?
I have never had a problem using the women's washroom since I started presenting as female. The first time was after a support group session in the city (an hour and a half drive away). I was on my way home, dressed in a nice skirt, and I felt the call of nature. This was before spiro, but I probably had had some coffee at the group or something.
I pulled over at a truck stop. Hell will freeze over before I go into a men's room in a skirt. I figured I'd be a whole lot safer in the women's room. So, I boldly walked into the ladies' like I'd done it a million times before. Luckily for me, no one else was in there.
It has been uneventful ever since. When I was part-time, I used the ladies' when presenting as female, and the men's when presenting as male. Now, it is the ladies' room every time. I have learned to carry on conversations in there. In the concert band, where everyone knows that I am trans, all the woman go in a group at the break, and I am included.
Quote from: Arianna Valentine on December 08, 2018, 08:13:45 PM
Honestly I don't think it's only uneducated people it's the perverts that go in there that are not transgender that like to dress up as women and put cameras in the Stalls and try to rape women and all this other >-bleeped-< they're the ones that make us look bad they're the reasons why we're uncomfortable using the ladies were like we're supposed to
If you can't accept yourself, how can you expect others to accept you?
You don't really mean this, do you? How often does that happen? Do you know a single definite case?
If so, perverts must run rampage in the US and not in Europe. Many countries there, Belgium as an example, have mostly unisex bathrooms, and they are even equipped with urinals. Men stand at the urinal, women walk by and use a stall! Nobody cares, and nobody seems to install cameras!
Quote from: Dietlind on December 08, 2018, 09:13:01 PM
You don't really mean this, do you? How often does that happen? Do you know a single definite case?
If so, perverts must run rampage in the US and not in Europe. Many countries there, Belgium as an example, have mostly unisex bathrooms, and they are even equipped with urinals. Men stand at the urinal, women walk by and use a stall! Nobody cares, and nobody seems to install cameras!
Not That I've seen the us doesn't have a lot of unisex bathrooms unless they're family bathrooms
If you can't accept yourself, how can you expect others to accept you?
Quote from: IAmM on December 08, 2018, 08:34:07 PM
Restrooms are a major concern.
It should only be a concern for us but it was made an issue and now there is contention with non trans people where before there was none.
My personal opinion, if you are accepted you belong. Be a girl though please. It can feel incredibly invasive having someone who is not even trying to be female in the bathroom. I say this and I know that I will go to the Keystone Conference next year and find toilet seats up in the ladies room. I have seen ladies nervous and uncomfortable in the women's restroom. Not fun and should never happen.
It is unfortunate that the child outed you though, it sounds like you are at the juncture where it is time to move away from the land of urinals. It gets easier. One day you will not even question which restroom to use and neither will anyone else. I understand your fear though. It got to the point when men were climbing into the urinal when I walked in. Had them practically screeching that this was the men's room and finally had an usher chase me into the men's room, 'Ma'am, ma'am, the ladies room is across the hall!' Before I went to the women's bathroom.
The child is not to blame, but should also not be a deterrent from going into the ladies room next time. It is a process, and this is just one of many steps.
The annoying child in the cart was stationed outside the bathroom entrances as the mom had gone in to do her business. Leaving the kid alone in the cart didn't seem very smart to me. We've had a rash of kidnappings lately. Xmas is the silly season and all the weirdos come out of the wood work.
Lisa
I used men's restrooms past the point where I should have stopped. I reached the point where guys were staring at me even when I wore a baggy men's T shirt over skinny jeans, ponytail and no makeup.
Children can be problematic because they have no filter and they tend to call things as they see them. I was in a supermarket line with my wife last week. I looked pretty passable but a little girl in line with her mother ahead of me heard my voice and she really started staring at me.
Don't let being called out by a child trouble you. Just take a moment or two, regroup, and go on with your business.
Quote from: IAmM on December 08, 2018, 08:51:39 PM
I know what you mean about Kentucky. My family has land outside of Keltner in Adair County for as long as I can remember. I think the original intent was to farm the land but no one ever did, we lease it out but for the original house on the property. Seriously, most standoffish and at the same time friendliest people that I have ever met. Damn those chiggers though.
It may be tough but, they accept their own right? Come whatever may. I went back last summer and no one even noticed I was trans, but no one recognized me either so that kinda sucked.
Well I've lived here my whole life the area that I live at now when I first moved here in prison mail when I started transitioning one person asked to my older brother about it and that was it I've been accepted by everybody and you're right Kentucky has some of the nicest people at least as far as I know
If you can't accept yourself, how can you expect others to accept you?
Aceof Diamonds - Please don't let this discourage you. IMHO going into a men's room when you are wearing women's clothing is crazy. You are presenting as a woman - you belong in the women's restroom.
I have not been in a men's room since the day I transitioned. I don't pass all the time not even close. I have been using only the women's restroom for almost 2 years.
In all honesty I was nervous after first, especially the first 5 or 10 times. Eventually you get used to it and the nerves go away. Just walk in like you belong there - do your business and walk out.
I can't even imagine going in the men's room anymore and I used to be nervous like you are.
As for the kids - yep they have no filter. Two options - either just ignore them or - say I used to be a boy but I changed and I'm a girl now. Why not? It's true.
The problem is not the kid it is that you don't feel as though you should be in there. That is what has to change.
Read my signature line below.
Quote from: KathyLauren on December 08, 2018, 09:10:13 PM
I have learned to carry on conversations in there.
Kathy, this is the second time, people here have said you actually may need to talk in the restrooms.
Not having used the Ladies yet, I am left wondering how common that is, and what sort of small talk goes on?
I want to be prepared.
~Dee.
Quote from: Arianna Valentine on December 08, 2018, 08:13:45 PM
Honestly I don't think it's only uneducated people it's the perverts that go in there that are not transgender that like to dress up as women and put cameras in the Stalls and try to rape women and all this other >-bleeped-< they're the ones that make us look bad they're the reasons why we're uncomfortable using the ladies were like we're supposed to
If you can't accept yourself, how can you expect others to accept you?
Arianna - I am disappointed to read this. There are no documented incidents of straight cis men dressing as women to sneak into a women's restroom to molest women or girls. This is B.S. from bigots that is meant to scare people and shove us back into the closet where they want us.
I ask that you share a link from a reputable news source documenting one case of this happening.
Just use common sense. What straight cis guy would be caught dead wearing a dress?? Seriously??
If someone wants to molest someone they are just going to do it - not put on a dress as a disguise and look what they think is ridiculous to try to pass as a woman and sneak into a restroom.
This is an idiotic position that is promoted by bigots. Please don't believe that stuff.
Dee - It's not that big a deal. Just passing chit chat, same as in the men's room. Not long conversations - just a sentence or two in passing. I promise it's not a girl's club in there. LOL
Quote from: dee82 on December 08, 2018, 10:47:29 PM
Kathy, this is the second time, people here have said you actually may need to talk in the restrooms.
Not having used the Ladies yet, I am left wondering how common that is, and what sort of small talk goes on?
I want to be prepared.
~Dee.
I think it depends on the location of the restroom. I was a few times at Costco in the female restroom, and nobody talked there. It was there as quiet as it was in the men's room. I also was once at TJ Max, and there was also no interpersonal conversation going on.
Quote from: KimOct on December 08, 2018, 10:51:21 PM
Arianna - I am disappointed to read this. There are no documented incidents of straight cis men dressing as women to sneak into a women's restroom to molest women or girls. This is B.S. from bigots that is meant to scare people and shove us back into the closet where they want us.
I ask that you share a link from a reputable news source documenting one case of this happening.
Just use common sense. What straight cis guy would be caught dead wearing a dress?? Seriously??
If someone wants to molest someone they are just going to do it - not put on a dress as a disguise and look what they think is ridiculous to try to pass as a woman and sneak into a restroom.
This is an idiotic position that is promoted by bigots. Please don't believe that stuff.
I don't think the problem is rather or not i believe it the general population believes this as for the link here is one from ABC news.
https://abcnews4.com/news/local/police-arrest-man-they-say-dressed-in-womens-clothes-to-spy-on-women-in-restroom
If you can't accept yourself, how can you expect others to accept you?
OK I will stand slightly corrected. I spent the last 20 minutes researching this and I found 3 incidents.
1. The link that was provided was one case.
2. I found one that was posted on Breitbart (consider the source ) in 2016 in Utah. I couldn't find it anywhere else.
3. Some sketchy site that was a Walmart bashing site about a customer that was apparently arrested multiple times in public for exposing himself.
I understand your clarification that it isn't about YOU believing it - it is about the public believing it.
That is why we need to make our voices heard - not stay in hiding - be ambassadors of goodwill - and show society that 99.99% of us are good law abiding people.
I would be willing to bet that many more women have been molested in restrooms by cis appearing men than 1 or possibly 2 or 3 men wearing dresses.
Far right propaganda promoting this as a legitimate fear against transgender rights is beyond ridiculous.
The bathroom for females is also a sanctury for FEMALES. Many female restrooms have a sitting area, its a place to escape without fear from men. Forgets the bathroom legislation in your country or state, Mens bathrooms are not a sanctury, its important to understand this. Thus, if you dont pass as a female you are entering this female sanctury without the credentials. It is totally inconsiderate, disrespectful and agressive if a female TGs, not passing enters. It make many females feel violated, fearful and uncomfortable. This becomes even more of a paranoia if they have female children. We need to win the hearts of the cis females and forcing this issue only increases hate. I for one have the view that if you dont pass and are going out and may need to use bathroom facilities, then dress androgenously. Mens toilets are not a sanctury. Arianna comments in my view have merit. And children do not have tg radar, they are being honest and truthful. Maybe this is hard for many to accept but it is my view of being considerate to others.
Quote from: warlockmaker on December 08, 2018, 11:43:50 PM
The bathroom for females is also a sanctury for FEMALES. Many female restrooms have a sitting area, its a place to escape without fear from men. Forgets the bathroom legislation in your country or state, Mens bathrooms are not a sanctury, its important to understand this. Thus, if you dont pass as a female you are entering this female sanctury without the credentials. It is totally inconsiderate, disrespectful and agressive if a female TGs, not passing enters. It make many females feel violated, fearful and uncomfortable. This becomes even more of a paranoia if they have female children. We need to win the hearts of the cis females and forcing this issue only increases hate. I for one have the view that if you dont pass and are going out and may need to use bathroom facilities, then dress androgenously. Mens toilets are not a sanctury. Arianna comments in my view have merit. And children do not have tg radar, they are being honest and truthful. Maybe this is hard for many to accept but it is my view of being considerate to others.
That's TERF talk.
We ARE female and have the right to use female spaces if presenting female. Even if we don't pass. If a cis female has a problem with it, it is THEIR problem and not ours.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Quote from: warlockmaker on December 08, 2018, 11:43:50 PM
The bathroom for females is also a sanctury for FEMALES. Many female restrooms have a sitting area, its a place to escape without fear from men. Forgets the bathroom legislation in your country or state, Mens bathrooms are not a sanctury, its important to understand this. Thus, if you dont pass as a female you are entering this female sanctury without the credentials. It is totally inconsiderate, disrespectful and agressive if a female TGs, not passing enters. It make many females feel violated, fearful and uncomfortable. This becomes even more of a paranoia if they have female children. We need to win the hearts of the cis females and forcing this issue only increases hate. I for one have the view that if you dont pass and are going out and may need to use bathroom facilities, then dress androgenously. Mens toilets are not a sanctury. Arianna comments in my view have merit. And children do not have tg radar, they are being honest and truthful. Maybe this is hard for many to accept but it is my view of being considerate to others.
This 100%, I can't even stress that enough. A restroom is not a restroom for women, it's OUR place, even a grubby ladies room in a train station.
Quote from: dee82 on December 08, 2018, 10:47:29 PM
Kathy, this is the second time, people here have said you actually may need to talk in the restrooms.
Not having used the Ladies yet, I am left wondering how common that is, and what sort of small talk goes on?
I want to be prepared.
~Dee.
It could be anything. Disney World in late afternoon it is entirely probable that you talk about how zonked the kids are and if they can make it to the evenings show/fireworks/dinner. On a long road trip it could be how you need to stretch your legs more than you want to make it to the end of the trip. Evening out it could be how much you like her dress and how bloated she feels in it right now. Or other stuff. ;)
It is not uncommon. Last Ren Fair I washed my hands next to a woman that loved the falconer show as much as I did as her daughter kept talking about the tiny owl and could she get one.
I don't know what kind of talk it is, just talk. Sometimes it happens.
I have to agree it is TERF talk. ( for those readers not familiar TERF is transgender exclusionary radical feminists = we don't count as women) Yet I do think it is important to be considerate of others. For example in the women's locker room that I use at work if I need to change my clothes I go into a stall. I don't have to I just do it to be considerate to try not to make anyone uncomfortable.
Some transwomen ( or transmen ) but particularly transwomen may never "pass". I have a bad heart, FFS is not an option for me, am I supposed to use the men's room? I am legally female in every way.
And at what point in transition is using the women's room permissible? Where is the line drawn?
When you start seeing a therapist? When you change your name? When you have vaginoplasty? When you change your birth certificate?
Passing is not the threshold. Identifying should be. BUT - that comes with being considerate. If you present as a female then act like it. And if you are not very passable walk in and out and mind your own business.
If transwomen cannot use public bathrooms we cannot go very far from home and then we are effectively shut out of society.
Our right to exist is not measured by our PASSABILITY .
Quote from: TonyaW on December 09, 2018, 12:12:39 AM
That's TERF talk.
We ARE female and have the right to use female spaces if presenting female. Even if we don't pass. If a cis female has a problem with it, it is THEIR problem and not ours.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Not passing but honest effort.
Forgive me but the way I see it, if you push like that people will push back. Bull our way in and we may never find acceptance.
More bluntly, WHAT!!!??? You say it like we are a majority that can make the rules. It is very much our problem. Rights are not innate but given by a consensus of the majority. They can be given ONLY and can just as easily be taken away.
Is this the way everyone here feels? I feel like I just started to walk through waist high Jello.
Ah... good luck.
Quote from: warlockmaker on December 08, 2018, 11:43:50 PMForgets the bathroom legislation in your country or state/quote]
I am having trouble with the using the quote function but the above was part of warlockmaker's reply -
Wow, reading this I am struggling to remain polite. These bathroom 'laws' are intended to marginalize us. Anyone that thinks it is about safety is deluding themselves.
There are two sides to every issue. We also have the responsibility to be considerate.
I had an orchiectomy (testicle removal ) but still have a penis. Would I pee standing up? Of course not. That would be rude even in a stall.
Would I speak in my baritone voice? No that would be off putting.
We should be considerate. AND we should have RIGHTS.
I agree with IamM. If you push people they will push back. It is about being thoughtful, considerate and demanding your rights. Compromise but not being erased.
Honest effort - not passability.
Quote from: IAmM on December 09, 2018, 12:24:31 AM
It could be anything. Disney World in late afternoon it is entirely probable that you talk about how zonked the kids are and if they can make it to the evenings show/fireworks/dinner. On a long road trip it could be how you need to stretch your legs more than you want to make it to the end of the trip. Evening out it could be how much you like her dress and how bloated she feels in it right now. Or other stuff. ;)
It is not uncommon. Last Ren Fair I washed my hands next to a woman that loved the falconer show as much as I did as her daughter kept talking about the tiny owl and could she get one.
I don't know what kind of talk it is, just talk. Sometimes it happens.
Quote from: Dietlind on December 08, 2018, 10:58:23 PM
I think it depends on the location of the restroom. I was a few times at Costco in the female restroom, and nobody talked there. It was there as quiet as it was in the men's room. I also was once at TJ Max, and there was also no interpersonal conversation going on.
Quote from: KimOct on December 08, 2018, 10:53:02 PM
Dee - It's not that big a deal. Just passing chit chat, same as in the men's room. Not long conversations - just a sentence or two in passing. I promise it's not a girl's club in there. LOL
Okay. As someone who has never spoken to a stranger in the Men's room it sounds daunting.
The reason for that, and maybe it relates to the current "TERF" discussion, is that if I can go in and out and
not talk, in my current state I may actually pass. But if I need to talk, my confidence evaporates, as my voice draws attention to my transness. (Which is something I like to avoid.)
I find the whole restroom question tricky. I can see both sides. You shouldn't have to pass. But once there is the
at least make an effort criteria it starts to get confusing where do you draw the line. I dunno know what to think on this one.
As someone quite anxious about what my first time will be like, thinking about these questions, doesn't help with the anxiety.
~Dee.
I know I am weighing in a lot on this but I think it is a big deal. It defines our ability to function in the world but it is also a big philosophical question but also a real world question.
Do we have the right to be out in the world?
Dee - If you never spoke just in passing in men's rooms I doubt you will in women's rooms either.
If someone insists on being friendly just give them a couple of words and be on your way.
If you are feeling uncomfortable about your voice there are many resources for voice training. I went to a therapist at a hospital that helped. Do I sound perfect - not at all - but a little better. There are also you tube videos - lots of them- and DVD videos. There are plenty of sources for working on your voice.
But big picture - I promise you are worrying too much about this. Until you get comfortable just hurry in and out - but at least quickly wash your hands. ;)
Passing is not just the way you look its your total presentation. When you have lived as a female full time, for a long enough time, you will behave like a female and feel confident you are one. This confidence eminates and using the female facilities will be natural. If you still question yourself then you are not ready and using the female facilities is not the nice thing to do. We need to win friends not make enemies.
Quote from: warlockmaker on December 09, 2018, 01:30:14 AM
Passing is not just the way you look its your total presentation. When you have lived as a female full time, for a long enough time, you will behave like a female and feel confident you are one. This confidence eminates and using the female facilities will be natural. If you still question yourself then you are not ready and using the female facilities is not the nice thing to do. We need to win friends not make enemies.
As someone who is publicly presenting as a woman around 90% of the time, (but have only been doing so for 2 weeks) I feel like I am at the point of no longer being able to go into the men's. It is simply is not appropriate, and I no longer feel safe doing so.
But the women's restroom scares me too. I like to think I can pass, (at the very least it is clear I am trying to look like the woman I am) but there are days when the ugly 5 o'clock shadow makes an appearance or something else affects my confidence.
To date, I have 2 strategies to cope with this.
a. Be careful with my drinking, and not need to go until I am home.
b. Seek out a disabled/unisex toilet.
Thinking I need to be considerate of others feelings I totally get, but it is also a huge burden and responsibility to worry about what other people think, when I just want to do what I need to do.
Seeking out a disabled/unisex toilet makes me sad as I furtively try to find a restroom I can feel comfortable using.
Going into the disabled toilet, I also think I am drawing attention to myself.
The thought that somehow my internal confidence is a measure of whether I am ready to use the Ladies, and until then, I don't fit anywhere doesn't seem right.I understand where you are coming from
warlockmaker, but you seem to be saying that unless I know there will be a disabled/unisex toilet, then until I have "lived as a female full time, for a long enough time" dressing androgenously and using the men's is what I need to do.
That just makes me want to cry.
I feel like I am just venting right now and there is no point being made. Other than being trans sucks.
~Dee
Quote from: KimOct on December 08, 2018, 11:29:41 PM
OK I will stand slightly corrected. I spent the last 20 minutes researching this and I found 3 incidents.
1. The link that was provided was one case.
2. I found one that was posted on Breitbart (consider the source ) in 2016 in Utah. I couldn't find it anywhere else.
3. Some sketchy site that was a Walmart bashing site about a customer that was apparently arrested multiple times in public for exposing himself.
I understand your clarification that it isn't about YOU believing it - it is about the public believing it.
That is why we need to make our voices heard - not stay in hiding - be ambassadors of goodwill - and show society that 99.99% of us are good law abiding people.
I would be willing to bet that many more women have been molested in restrooms by cis appearing men than 1 or possibly 2 or 3 men wearing dresses.
Far right propaganda promoting this as a legitimate fear against transgender rights is beyond ridiculous.
I completely agree with you we for one should not need to hide and for two we should not hide in the first place we need to show everybody that we are different that we are women even if we are trapped in the wrong body that doesn't mean we're like those few people that even you found on the internet that like to go to the restrooms and harass women we honestly go to the restroom to use the restroom and then we ain't we have no ulterior motives and we do need to stand up for our rights
If you can't accept yourself, how can you expect others to accept you?
Quote from: KimOct on December 09, 2018, 01:20:13 AM
I know I am weighing in a lot on this but I think it is a big deal. It defines our ability to function in the world but it is also a big philosophical question but also a real world question.
Do we have the right to be out in the world?
Dee - If you never spoke just in passing in men's rooms I doubt you will in women's rooms either.
If someone insists on being friendly just give them a couple of words and be on your way.
If you are feeling uncomfortable about your voice there are many resources for voice training. I went to a therapist at a hospital that helped. Do I sound perfect - not at all - but a little better. There are also you tube videos - lots of them- and DVD videos. There are plenty of sources for working on your voice.
But big picture - I promise you are worrying too much about this. Until you get comfortable just hurry in and out - but at least quickly wash your hands. ;)
And if you don't quickly wash your hands at least carry a bottle of hand sanitizer on you little travel-size one will do nicely
If you can't accept yourself, how can you expect others to accept you?
Oh Dee - You are making me sad. I wish you were sitting next to me in person so I could look you in the eye and tell you it really isn't that bad. You are ruminating on this.
Believe me - NOBODY- and I mean NOBODY - was more scared than I was.
You take it a little at a time. Unisex ( single person ) bathrooms are great when you can find them. Always used them when I was first transitioning. The problem is they are not everywhere.
Not drinking anything is very unhealthy. I have read stories about other trans people doing that. Please don't. I had kidney stones 3 times. Not fun.
It will be hard for a little bit but so is transitioning. The first few times just pull up your big girl panties and do it.
You are tougher than you think you are a TRANSWOMAN !!
Courage is being afraid to do something but doing it anyway.
Warlockmaker - I am sure if we were sitting over coffee we would find a middle ground between us and might possibly agree to disagree - the downside of the internet we all talk at each other without any nuance and being able to see someone's attitude.
That said - There has to be a learning curve to this. It is not like you wake up one day and overnight - boom... you are a full fledged - full time transwoman. People have to do this and for some of us it's harder than others.
I ask this with the best intentions - would you describe how and when you started using the women's restroom during your transition?
Mine was like Dee - I looked for unisex / family restrooms - then I used one at the Univ of MN where it was acceptable because of the transgender clinic - then I used one when traveling at San Francisco airport when traveling and had to.
I had just started hormones and had my letter for my doctor in my purse. But I was still entirely legally male - name, drivers license everything. But I was obviously presenting as female. Was it hard? Sure but if you are going to live this life you have to suck it up and do it. Then it starts getting easier.
Is your position that someone has to be full time and use the women's restroom for the first time once they never live another day again as male?
I used to be the apex alpha male and I when I accepted my being TG, I imagined how I would use legal and agressive actions if there was any discrimination towards me. For me, I never used a female facility until I had my GRS, that was what made me feel I had the right and that I was a female, I believe others will have other triggers that gives them total confidence. Today, with an active foundation to help TGs in Asia and being blessed to be accepted by the cis female and listening to their views, I now feel very differentl. Its more important to win their hearts and the simple act of consideration and respect gives us the chance to develop a new perspective of TGs.
It's late and I am going to sleep soon but I want to address this to those that read and don't post. That is why I am on this site. Other people helped me figure things out when I was starting to transition so I want to say this to those of you that are scared about this and are not sure what to do.
It is extremely rare that anyone is going to give you a hard time using the women's restroom if you are at least attempting to legitimately present as a woman. I am 6'2" and built like a dude - I am not pretty. My picture on here is one of my better pictures.
Nobody has ever challenged me using a women's restroom. I used to carry whatever I had with me as a security blanket - first the letter from my therapist - then my new drivers license - eventually my revised birth certificate. But I was using the women's restroom before I had all of that stuff.
Just go in - behave - don't draw attention to yourself and people will leave you alone. I am 999 out of 1000 sure of this. And if you are the unlucky 1 in 1000 then you will have a story to tell. :D
It will be OK I promise.
Like I said courage is being afraid and doing it anyway.
Thank you
Kim for sharing your experiences.
I am ruminating on this because I know is my next big milestone. Other than one other work related person to come out to, using toilets is my main current concern.
As much a worrier I am, I have no desire to do things halfway. Most of my old clothes are now gone. And socially I go out as 100% woman.
The only time I present as male is one day per fortnight for work reasons.
A suggestion my gender therapist made was to go with a friend the first time. It seems like a good idea to me, and I will try to arrange things that way.
This discussion tapped into my own doubts. And as you say:
Quote from: KimOct on December 09, 2018, 01:20:13 AM
I know I am weighing in a lot on this but I think it is a big deal. It defines our ability to function in the world but it is also a big philosophical question but also a real world question.
Which is why I think about it a lot.
I know I will get there, with my own courage and support of people here. Thanks again.
~Dee
OK so much for sleep LOL.
Warlockmaker - thanks for your reply.
I disagree with some of what you said but I do agree with you on the point of winning hearts and minds.
While I believe in my position regarding bathroom rights and I think people should do so earlier in the transition process than you may now or did in the past I do think that when we do so we should keep in mind the comfort of others and respect that some may not feel comfortable.
Therefore I think it is our responsibility to act in a way that is considerate to those around us while at the same time exercising our rights. In short - do what is right but be polite in doing so.
You are welcome Dee. You got this !! :)
I am a worrier too but you can do this !!
Quote from: KimOct on December 09, 2018, 03:05:30 AM
You are welcome Dee. You got this !! :)
I am a worrier too but you can do this !!
Now, don't let us keep you up!
~Dee.
:D Nite Nite
Quote from: warlockmaker on December 09, 2018, 02:56:41 AM
Its more important to win their hearts and the simple act of consideration and respect gives us the chance to develop a new perspective of TGs.
Thank you for your experience and perspective,
warlockmaker. I want to clarify that what I have said here is
not about trans rights or activism. I just want a safe place to pee, and despite the talk of courage, the right time and confidence, my bladder sometimes has it's own ideas.
~Dee
:) It is not so very difficult.
Quote from: warlockmaker on December 09, 2018, 01:30:14 AM
Passing is not just the way you look its your total presentation. When you have lived as a female full time, for a long enough time, you will behave like a female and feel confident you are one. This confidence eminates and using the female facilities will be natural. If you still question yourself then you are not ready and using the female facilities is not the nice thing to do. We need to win friends not make enemies.
Yes and no. We get to where we are by going through the crap show. Yes what you are saying is true to a point, you cannot get there in a vacuum though. You have to live it.
Quote from: dee82 on December 09, 2018, 01:52:18 AM
As someone who is publicly presenting as a woman around 90% of the time, (but have only been doing so for 2 weeks) I feel like I am at the point of no longer being able to go into the men's. It is simply is not appropriate, and I no longer feel safe doing so.
But the women's restroom scares me too. I like to think I can pass, (at the very least it is clear I am trying to look like the woman I am) but there are days when the ugly 5 o'clock shadow makes an appearance or something else affects my confidence.
To date, I have 2 strategies to cope with this.
a. Be careful with my drinking, and not need to go until I am home.
b. Seek out a disabled/unisex toilet.
Thinking I need to be considerate of others feelings I totally get, but it is also a huge burden and responsibility to worry about what other people think, when I just want to do what I need to do.
Seeking out a disabled/unisex toilet makes me sad as I furtively try to find a restroom I can feel comfortable using.
Going into the disabled toilet, I also think I am drawing attention to myself.
The thought that somehow my internal confidence is a measure of whether I am ready to use the Ladies, and until then, I don't fit anywhere doesn't seem right.
I understand where you are coming from warlockmaker, but you seem to be saying that unless I know there will be a disabled/unisex toilet, then until I have "lived as a female full time, for a long enough time" dressing androgenously and using the men's is what I need to do.
That just makes me want to cry.
I feel like I am just venting right now and there is no point being made. Other than being trans sucks.
~Dee
;D Yep, being trans sucks.
Going to the bathroom though, not so bad. Walk in, answer the call of nature, wash your hands( Please wash your hands ) and leave. Not joking, most women don't care, just don't make them feel uncomfortable.
My roommate before my boyfriend asked me to move in with him was so far out of my comfort zone. My younger brother's first wife and we have been friends since childhood. Yes, everyone that knows me has always know that I have no interest in women never have, but still. She once drug me into the girls bathroom long before I came out, crowded bathroom, some of the women there looked so startled. She just said he is gay and drug me into the stall with her. Quite normal sharing the bathroom with her, it was hard for me to accept at first but that time we had lived together for over a year and privacy was never one of her priorities. None of the girls seemed to care at all that there was a guy in the bathroom, for whatever reason I was instantly deemed safe. I never let her do that again. Sharing a bathroom with her was not the problem, my fear of how the other women felt was.
Tomorrow is reached by doing the work and facing the storm today. Don't look up, don't interact, do the deed and go. ( please wash your hands ) Everything else will come with time and effort but doing it comes from actually doing it.
You do fit in, you just don't know it yet.
Every effort, every step, is one step closer. Don't deny yourself something that is going to happen anyway, okay. When everyone feels uncomfortable, you and them, when you go into a men's restroom, exchange useless discomfort for what is at worst discomfort that will get you one step closer to your goal.
Women's restrooms tend to be cleaner than men's, and I prefer women's. I have never seen any line in the men's, but a lot in women's. When women's restroom is crowded, I use that for handicapped people. Sometimes, aged women complain behind me that I am too tall, nevertheless wearing high heels. In men's? Even with seemingly men's dresses, it causes a too much fuss, and I do not want embarrass those innocent men any more. I remember that some of my female friends next to me chatted with me in a public restroom.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4818/45517354534_d9c166e850_z.jpg)
In the front of the vanity room in a hotel restroom a few weeks ago.
barbie~~
Quote from: IAmM on December 09, 2018, 03:34:15 AM
Going to the bathroom though, not so bad. Walk in, answer the call of nature, wash your hands( Please wash your hands ) and leave. Not joking, most women don't care, just don't make them feel uncomfortable.
...
( please wash your hands )
...
You do fit in, you just don't know it yet.
Well, I am feeling encouraged now.
That's one "out there" roommate you have/had.
Oh, the hand washing? Don't worry about that
IAmM, I
always wash them. Seeing men who do not is so gross, so much so, that I am one of those who always figures out how to open the door without touching it on the way out because I know many grubby unwashed hands have touched it before me.
If washing hands in the Ladies is a requirement for fitting in, I'll be right at home.
~Dee.
We also advise tg females that if they feel insecure despite all their effort, then simply ask a cis female friend to go with you, even if you get clocked, having a cis female with you seems to give cis females, using their facilities, comfort and also shows your consideration for their need to feel secure.
Its such a touchy topic and I it is not difficult to see both side, I dont even know if there is a right or wrong. I often urge new transitioners to forget your old male ego and use that new found empathy to do what is considerate and respectful. You will be female but give it time, there is just so much to learn and experience and to emerge as the special person, each and every one of us born to be.
Quote from: dee82 on December 08, 2018, 10:47:29 PM
Kathy, this is the second time, people here have said you actually may need to talk in the restrooms.
Not having used the Ladies yet, I am left wondering how common that is, and what sort of small talk goes on?
I want to be prepared.
~Dee.
Yes, it's true. Ladies like to talk in the bathroom, even while in the stalls doing their business! It doesn't happen all the time, but the first few times will seem weird. What are the subjects? It could be just about anything, from your fashion choices that day to your plans for the weekend. Women are much more social than men, and 'TMI' has a much higher threshold when only women are involved. A non-bathroom example happened a few months ago. Within minutes of my telling a new friend that I was transgender, she was telling me about her bladder prolapse issues! Women share much more personal information with one another than men do. It really is a fantastic club to become a member of!
Love always -- Jessica Rose
If I'm out and need to go to the bathroom, I always ask if there is an unisex facility nearby... I've been pointed the ladies room all the times but I just don't feel comfortable with the risk of being violated... for now. I sometime bring up that issue to other cis females especially my friends and they've offered to escort me... which I'm thankful for... but unisex restroom will always have top priority!
I live in Canada it's more LGBT friendly than down there in the US.
Quote from: barbie on December 09, 2018, 03:43:56 AM
Women's restrooms tend to be cleaner than men's, and I prefer women's. I have never seen any line in the men's, but a lot in women's. When women's restroom is crowded, I use that for handicapped people. Sometimes, aged women complain behind me that I am too tall, nevertheless wearing high heels. In men's? Even with seemingly men's dresses, it causes a too much fuss, and I do not want embarrass those innocent men any more. I remember that some of my female friends next to me chatted with me in a public restroom.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4818/45517354534_d9c166e850_z.jpg (https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4818/45517354534_d9c166e850_z.jpg)
In the front of the vanity room in a hotel restroom a few weeks ago.
barbie~~
I get that totally. I'm in a similar situation, even if I have to present as a man(which is quite andro look these days) it is very awkward for me to go to the men's restroom as it's confusing people who don't know me. There were quite a few instances when a man entered, saw me, apologized for entering the wrong restroom and went back to check the sign :D
I would never enter the men's restroom while presenting as a female, it's awkward enough as it is. When I'm presenting as a female I always go to the women's restroom and it was never a problem. I tend to pass so that helps but I don't feel that I don't belong there just because I'm not yet legally female, or because I'm not on HRT, didn't have GRS or VFS.
Quote from: dee82 on December 08, 2018, 10:47:29 PM
Kathy, this is the second time, people here have said you actually may need to talk in the restrooms.
Not having used the Ladies yet, I am left wondering how common that is, and what sort of small talk goes on?
I want to be prepared.
~Dee.
You don't
need to talk. But unlike the men's room where eye contact is to be avoided and the proper response to any speech is a grunt, women's rooms are much more social places. You don't have to talk, but you can, and people will.
If you happen to catch someone's eye, don't suddenly look away like a man would. Hold the eye contact for a beat and smile. If someone says something to you, don't grunt like a man, answer properly, like a normal conversation. Conversation between strangers in the women's room is not common, though they might exchange a few words about the weather. But if you go in with friends, expect them to continue whatever conversation they were having before. Even in the stalls! (Yeah, that took some getting used to!)
Quote from: IAmM on December 09, 2018, 12:41:00 AM
Not passing but honest effort.
Forgive me but the way I see it, if you push like that people will push back. Bull our way in and we may never find acceptance.
More bluntly, WHAT!!!??? You say it like we are a majority that can make the rules. It is very much our problem. Rights are not innate but given by a consensus of the majority. They can be given ONLY and can just as easily be taken away.
Is this the way everyone here feels? I feel like I just started to walk through waist high Jello.
Ah... good luck.
Of course we need to be considerate, as anyone should be anywhere, and people should also be to us. The trouble is if people say we don't belong there because we are not female. That is the extent of the TERF argument and we should in no way concede to that. The sign on the door says women, not vaginas.
I'm not doing any pushing by entering a space that I have a right to be in. I just need to pee. Its not like I walk in and yell "I'm trans and I have a right to be here".
Its their problem if they are perceiving us to be men when we are not. It's our problem in general in trying to educate people about that.
Being perceived as a male in the female space is what scared me most about using the ladies room when I first began transitioning. Gender neutral restrooms (when I could find them) were a blessing until I gained enough confidence to use the women's. I still have some fear of that, though I'm much more confident that I belong there. Helps that my drivers license now has the F on it.
I still have a bit of male anatomy but I am female. If no one is doing anything they shouldn't be doing, no one is going to see that. I haven't done much with my voice so I try not to speak and draw attention to myself, especially to someone that may not be able to see me.
I use the womens locker room at the gym, but only to change my shoes and hang my coat. There are curtains on the showers so I probably could use them without being seen, but I don't. If there were doors that locked and enough room to comfortably dry off and change clothes behind them, I would use the showers.
Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
Quote from: Arianna Valentine on December 08, 2018, 08:13:45 PM
Honestly I don't think it's only uneducated people it's the perverts that go in there that are not transgender that like to dress up as women and put cameras in the Stalls and try to rape women and all this other >-bleeped-< they're the ones that make us look bad they're the reasons why we're uncomfortable using the ladies were like we're supposed to
If you can't accept yourself, how can you expect others to accept you?
Or a bunch of regressive jerks made the whole thing up to avoid real debate and prey on people's base fears.
Group admits that Transgender Predator myth was a lie (http://instinctmagazine.com/post/transgender-bathroom-predator-myth-completely-made-massachusetts-group-admits)
Quote from: elle's bells on December 09, 2018, 10:15:55 AM
Or a bunch of regressive jerks made the whole thing up to avoid real debate and prey on people's base fears.
Group admits that Transgender Predator myth was a lie (http://instinctmagazine.com/post/transgender-bathroom-predator-myth-completely-made-massachusetts-group-admits)
Thank you for This elle's this give me a little hope
If you can't accept yourself, how can you expect others to accept you?
Quote from: elle's bells on December 09, 2018, 10:15:55 AM
Or a bunch of regressive jerks made the whole thing up to avoid real debate and prey on people's base fears.
Group admits that Transgender Predator myth was a lie (http://instinctmagazine.com/post/transgender-bathroom-predator-myth-completely-made-massachusetts-group-admits)
@elle's bells I've just read this full thread and I was thinking that I was sure I'd read that somewhere.
I've just written a couple of blog entries about this (I dont know what the rules are on here as to referring to your own blog so I won't).
Here in the UK this is suddenly an issue where it wasn't even just a couple of years ago. Thanks to groups like Woman's Place UK have had some luck in being heard by the public, not least because they include a number of lawyers and professors in their ranks. The outlook among woman is not necessarily binary, with the TERFs on the one side acting with indignation, through many woman who could not properly be described as TERFs who are not anti-trans, and do consider us women, but have concerns, through to the (probably majority) group on the other side who don't care two hoots about us in the ladies.
Merely because fear of some cis-woman is misfounded does not mean that as a group we shouid march into the ladies en masse. Sometimes a legal right and the right thing to do are not alligned. Jumping in without considering at all the fears (even if misfounded) could push those cis-women to be become outright TERFs, feeling that we don't care about anyone else and only ourselves. Like or not we are in a bit of a battle for hearts and minds. By and large we're winning it.
My personal view is that if you are passible you'll have no problem. If you are not passible but there is likely to be sufficient doubt you'll have no problem as non-one really wants to challenge someone if they're not sure. To be honest I think even if you make a good effort at presenting yourself as a female you shouldn't have any problems as the vast majority of women would appreciate a respectful transwoman. Go in there looking like a bloke in a dress not really putting any effort in, and you might find more of a difficulty.
At work things are often a bit different. So as not to poke the bear I offered to use the disabled as everyone obviously knew I was trans. One by one every woman came to me and told me that they didn't care if I used the ladies. They took the view there were cubicles there.
My thoughts anyway
Em x
The fear is what's hard to get over. The battle of dreaded House Bill 2 created a firestorm of debate over the bathrooms and a lot of hostility. I've been out with my less than excepting sister and even she said use the ladies room.
I will admit, I am afraid of the conversation issue. I don't sound feminine and would blow my cover if I happen to be passable in the eyes of the public. My own confidence and self esteem is trash and I don't feel confident in passing.
I do think we need a middle ground and more unisex bathrooms in public places. I think this would alleviate the dreaded bathroom issue for us to some degree. It's demoralizing I know. But what other choice is there?
For those who are lucky enough to transition at a very young age the issue is really a none issue. They pass and are excepted as female 100% majority of the time. The rest of us transitioning late in life are not so lucky to have a our bodies be as feminine as those who started hormones at their natural puberty onset.
Lisa
I honestly think that once we get rid of this annoying let's call it an object or perhaps and unwanted growth once it is gone I am completely sure that most of us will be able to use the ladies room without any issues and even if it's not gone once we actually grow breasts or for me I use a bra that gives the appearance of double the cup size so that gives me a little bit more confidence in my decision to use the Ladies Room although I do still find myself using the restroom before I leave the house that way I do not have to worry about the restrooms in public and honestly most of the time that kind of nasty anyways
If you can't accept yourself, how can you expect others to accept you?
Quote from: Lynne on December 09, 2018, 07:07:49 AM
I get that totally. I'm in a similar situation, even if I have to present as a man(which is quite andro look these days) it is very awkward for me to go to the men's restroom as it's confusing people who don't know me. There were quite a few instances when a man entered, saw me, apologized for entering the wrong restroom and went back to check the sign :D
I would never enter the men's restroom while presenting as a female, it's awkward enough as it is. When I'm presenting as a female I always go to the women's restroom and it was never a problem. I tend to pass so that helps but I don't feel that I don't belong there just because I'm not yet legally female, or because I'm not on HRT, didn't have GRS or VFS.
If we call it 'type I' error, then there 'type II' error.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=211971.0
A similar case happened here (Daegu, South Korea) this year. An aged woman at 58 forcefully touched the breasts of a young lady at 20 to check her sex at a restaurant restroom, suspecting that the lady might be a crossdresser. The court imposed a fine and ordered the woman to take a 24 hour course for preventing sexual violence.
barbie~~
Quote from: dee82 on December 09, 2018, 04:01:09 AM
Well, I am feeling encouraged now.
That's one "out there" roommate you have/had.
Oh, the hand washing? Don't worry about that IAmM, I always wash them. Seeing men who do not is so gross, so much so, that I am one of those who always figures out how to open the door without touching it on the way out because I know many grubby unwashed hands have touched it before me.
If washing hands in the Ladies is a requirement for fitting in, I'll be right at home.
~Dee.
Yes, she is way out there and so much fun. She is one of the worlds premier gossips but my life has always been better with her in it. She was actually the first person other than myself that touched my breasts. Kind of odd because I don't think she is bi or interested in women, but she is obsessed with boobs, likes to look at them and likes to touch them. We were at a giant fear fest place with haunted houses, chainsaw massacre hay rides and things like that. We were in one house and she is behind me with her hands around my waist and alternating between looking over my shoulder and burying her face in my back and a zombie grabs me out of nowhere. When I can breathe again she has one of my boobs in each hand and giving them a good grope. When we got out of the house she says,'I so felt you up in there.' Yep, I was there. 'You don't mind?' No I have been waiting for you to take your chance for months now. I usually don't mind going along with her insanity, she is one of the gems in my life.
Just playing with the washing your hands thing. :) Still ( please wa.... ) ;)
I am glad you feel better about using the bathroom. It is scary but it can be done, hopefully you will see after that is not so bad.
Sorry everyone for my one post. I feel that gaining acceptance has to come from people repeatedly seeing us as just trying to be a girl. We have been used as a way to push agendas and people don't really like having things pushed on them. Most will more than generously give us the chance to be ourselves, I see this as an opportunity to let them accept us and not put ourselves in opposition.
I have been thinking about conversation in the restroom. It is not common unless it is with a friend but it does happen.
Besides the Ren Fair. Let's see.
Stopped at a rest stop late at night and in the middle of nowhere. No one was there, a maybe 60-65 year old woman comes in as I am washing my hands. She sees all of the cow that I am and sighs in relief. Then asked if I could wait until she was done so we could go to our cars together. Of course I did and we talked as she went to the bathroom all the way until we got back to our cars. I couldn't tell you what we talked about, we were just happy having someone else there with us.
Gettysburg tour our bus stoped at McDonald's so we could get something to eat and go to the bathroom. A woman about my age from another tour bus came into the restroom with me. We talked about what we had seen and how her husband and my boyfriend were having so much fun and constantly comparing what they know (aka showing off how much they know) with the tour guide. Less than five minutes but my best laugh all day.
Maybe two months ago at the horse races. I wore a dark summer dress with tights to keep warm. I did carry my sweater but was too warm to wear it. Every race I go in to make my $5 bet there is a couple by the door and the woman is staring at me. Went to the restroom before we left and she is there. She asked me if I was cold, I rarely get cold and don't know why. She said how amazing I looked and she wished she was young enough to make a dress like that look good. I told her that I am 48 and not exactly young. No way, really? Anyway we talked about dresses and horses until she sat back down with her husband and my boyfriend and I headed to the car.
Not much after all but it does happen.
Sorry for the stories.
I have found the stories and comments here supportive and thoughful.
It so important having a place where discussions like this can occur.
Hugs to everyone.
~Dee.
Quote from: barbie on December 09, 2018, 01:40:45 PM
If we call it 'type I' error, then there 'type II' error.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=211971.0
A similar case happened here (Daegu, South Korea) this year. An aged woman at 58 forcefully touched the breasts of a young lady at 20 to check her sex at a restaurant restroom, suspecting that the lady might be a crossdresser. The court imposed a fine and ordered the woman to take a 24 hour course for preventing sexual violence.
barbie~~
And hopefully stories like this one managed to get out into the General Public so they can understand that we have rights too
If you can't accept yourself, how can you expect others to accept you?
Quote from: dee82 on December 08, 2018, 10:47:29 PM
Kathy, this is the second time, people here have said you actually may need to talk in the restrooms.
Not having used the Ladies yet, I am left wondering how common that is, and what sort of small talk goes on?
I want to be prepared.
~Dee.
It happens in my office fairly often. Mostly when touching up makeup at the sink, but sometimes it carries on if one decides to use the facilities before exiting the rest room.
Quote from: dee82 on December 09, 2018, 12:57:48 AM
Okay. As someone who has never spoken to a stranger in the Men's room it sounds daunting.
The reason for that, and maybe it relates to the current "TERF" discussion, is that if I can go in and out and not talk, in my current state I may actually pass. But if I need to talk, my confidence evaporates, as my voice draws attention to my transness. (Which is something I like to avoid.)
I find the whole restroom question tricky. I can see both sides. You shouldn't have to pass. But once there is the at least make an effort criteria it starts to get confusing where do you draw the line. I dunno know what to think on this one.
As someone quite anxious about what my first time will be like, thinking about these questions, doesn't help with the anxiety.
~Dee.
It's my theory that men don't talk in the bathroom because they don't want to acknowledge that they are aware any other men are in the stall. My guess fear of thinking they are gay or trying to steal glances at the mans equipment in the urinal next to them. I guess in short it's machoism.
Regarding your voice there are excellent voice trainers out there that can help. I have roughly a range of 165Hz to 255Hz speaking voice. Don't worry most men can be trained to be able to sound feminine so even though you where raised male and have a deeper voice with proper training it isn't an issue.
That said if you are using the rest room out in public you could always pop on headphones and people will pretty much leave you out of the conversation. It's not rude, sometimes people just are not feeling like talking.
kids
Quote from: Aceofblackdiamonds on December 08, 2018, 08:24:51 PM
The hard part is living in a state that is unfriendly toward trans people. NC had the big HB2 battle. HB2 created a lot of media attention. All this attention created a bit of hostile environment for transgender people in NC.
Lisa
I'm in NC and have always gone to the ladies' restroom. I did get a lot more relaxed about it once my gender marker was changed to 'F' on my driver's license.
Quote from: Beverly Anne on December 09, 2018, 05:09:26 PM
I'm in NC and have always gone to the ladies' restroom. I did get a lot more relaxed about it once my gender marker was changed to 'F' on my driver's license.
Some people seem to have telephone conversations in the stall. They flush sometimes when on the call. I would wait to have calls, not anywhere in the bathrooms. Not even if I was in a bathroom at my place.
Chrissy
Quote from: Beverly Anne on December 09, 2018, 05:09:26 PM
I'm in NC and have always gone to the ladies' restroom. I did get a lot more relaxed about it once my gender marker was changed to 'F' on my driver's license.
It probably has to due more with location within the state. I live in a republican conservative portion of the state in Eastern NC.
If I lived in the capital or over in Charlotte I'd be less paranoid. I here those areas are more trans friendly.
Lisa
Besides unisex one stall public restrooms, disabled persons equipped single stall public restrooms, and the family publc restrooms, has anyone seen public restrooms in the USA that truly are "all gender" and have multiple stalls and possibly urinals?
Chrissy
There is an lgbt club in Minneapolis called Lush that has fully a fully integrated restroom.
When I went to NC for hair transplants twice I carried my birth certificate, passport and of coarse drivers license. I had no issues. One thing I found interesting is the guy at the Hotel addressed me as sir the first time I went there. The second time I went was about 6 or 9 months later and the same guy addressed me as female.
I was very paranoid at the airport but had no issue. I had no issues at restaurants either.
I wonder if there was an issue and I have every federal and state document stating my name and gender on them then what would they do?
Grr! In a hurry never really works for me.
It is the only restroom that they have as far as I know. I think that there urinals, I was having too much fun to even think about it.
Okay, last edit I need sleep. My friend says that she is pretty sure that there are urinals in another room just past the sink and stalls.
Quote from: Aceofblackdiamonds on December 09, 2018, 06:41:07 PM
It probably has to due more with location within the state. I live in a republican conservative portion of the state in Eastern NC.
If I lived in the capital or over in Charlotte I'd be less paranoid. I here those areas are more trans friendly.
Lisa
True. I'm in Charlotte, and it's really progressive. In fact, Charlotte's local trans-friendly ordinance is the reason the state legislature did HB2, which has since been modified. More rural community legislators wanted to override Charlotte's trans-supportive law. Rural areas cause equity issues all over the nation.
I had a power shopping day today (I have to keep up with Barbie), and went to the restroom a TJ Max, Bealls, Marshalls and Culverts. I did not see a single woman talk with another one, and I did not see either what would make those restrooms to become a sanctuary. They seem to be identical to the male rooms, sans the urinals.
i don't feel funny or anything, i just go in and do my business, wash my hands, and leave. I also used the ladies changing rooms in the three clothing stores, again, I do not engage in conversation. My voice is pretty high, I just make the mistake to slip into male talking patterns once in awhile. Because of this I use only very short sentences or single words when I talk with cashiers, etc.
But I do not see any reason that I, a woman, who still has male plumbing, have to go into a male restroom or changing room. It is all a matter of confidence, just go in and show that this is the facility that is the right one for you. There were at least three women I saw today, that had very male facial features, but a rather high pitch voice. I wonder whether those females think it over each time if they pass or not? and if they can go to the restroom for females?
Quote from: Dietlind on December 09, 2018, 08:43:53 PM
I had a power shopping day today (I have to keep up with Barbie), and went to the restroom a TJ Max, Bealls, Marshalls and Culverts. I did not see a single woman talk with another one, and I did not see either what would make those restrooms to become a sanctuary. They seem to be identical to the male rooms, sans the urinals.
i don't feel funny or anything, i just go in and do my business, wash my hands, and leave. I also used the ladies changing rooms in the three clothing stores, again, I do not engage in conversation. My voice is pretty high, I just make the mistake to slip into male talking patterns once in awhile. Because of this I use only very short sentences or single words when I talk with cashiers, etc.
But I do not see any reason that I, a woman, who still has male plumbing, have to go into a male restroom or changing room. It is all a matter of confidence, just go in and show that this is the facility that is the right one for you. There were at least three women I saw today, that had very male facial features, but a rather high pitch voice. I wonder whether those females think it over each time if they pass or not? and if they can go to the restroom for females?
I have to say I did notice that the ladies room does smell better in the men's room most of the time
If you can't accept yourself, how can you expect others to accept you?
I want to thank Dee for pointing me to this thread. I came out TG 5 weeks and still live with my wife and kids (15 and 20), so I don't dress girly often unless I travel out of my small town to downtown Vancouver (BC). I generally look for disabled or family rooms so I'm in a private area. I appreciate the tips to take a cis-woman friend with me the first few times, to walk in without hesitation and "own it", so to speak, to be social as much as someone should be, and to ensure I am presenting female. It's still a daunting experience on the horizon.
I really appreciate the discussion and learning about other TGs experiences as I go through my own process.
Hugs Zoey
Zoey I specifically came to this thread because I saw you posted. It sounds like you gained some valuable insight from reading this topic. The reason I am chiming in is to let you know it is scary at first - but you can do it. There are going to be times during your early transition that are challenging but you will get through them. We all did.
You will be surprised it will almost for sure be a non issue, 99.999%. In my opinion just make sure that it is visible that you identify as female and it will be fine.
I will preface this comment with the fact I haven't read all the replies on this thread.
I feel entirely comfortable using the women's restroom...... as long as I'm presenting female. But often enough it's just androgynous and could cause second looks, prompting me to consider my choices.
When I am using the women's room, I am conscious of the fact that women pee differently than men. Whereas when men pee, they at the end 'squirt' out the last bit, women pee continuously through gravity. So I have to make sure I redirect the last pulse towards the side, creating no sound at that point. I don't have a clue if that last bit of interrupted sound would be noticed, but I prefer not to take the chance.
Some rest rooms are clean. Others like the restrooms at DFW are nasty and you will want to squat so your butt doesn't touch the seat. I wouldn't use the paper liner things because they shift and there is no way I'm touching that gross seat.
Quote from: NatalieRene on December 20, 2018, 11:19:44 AM
Some rest rooms are clean. Others like the restrooms at DFW are nasty and you will want to squat so your butt doesn't touch the seat. I wouldn't use the paper liner things because they shift and there is no way I'm touching that gross seat.
I mostly use two of the liners, and lay them a little offset of each other, to make sure they cover everything even if they shift a little!