Susan's Place Transgender Resources

If You Don't Like The Word Transgender, Please Don't Let The Door Hit Ya...

Posted by Marti Abernathey on Jun 14th, 2011

http://www.transadvocate.com/if-you-dont-like-the-word-transgender-please-dont-let-the-door-hit-ya.htm (http://www.transadvocate.com/if-you-dont-like-the-word-transgender-please-dont-let-the-door-hit-ya.htm)

I wrote this on a Facebook friend's page after she complained about getting attacked for posting a link to this post. But I'm reposting my response here for anyone who erases my transsexual identity because I also self identify as transgender.

    I'm one of those people that are just sick to death of you and those like you. Ranting about "transgender" people as if they are not or cannot be transsexual. Erasing our existence to justify your own. So much irony in that. You claim that you are being erased, yet YOU erase other people by claiming to speak for all transsexuals.

I guess this debate is going on in a number of places...

The whole idea of labeling, hating labels then fighting about which labels apply to you seems an effort in futility.

Be mindful with your posts on this one, folks. Learn the lessons of the past. That's all I have to say on the matter.

Oh to hell with that. I'm making popcorn and will be checking in throughout the day.  But for now I'm off to swim, hot tub and tan.

Quote from: Sephirah on June 15, 2011, 12:09:59 PM
Be mindful with your posts on this one, folks. Learn the lessons of the past. That's all I have to say on the matter.

If its any consolation, I won't be stirring the pot...too much other stuff to do before a flight out west for a few days of fun in the sun and far cooler temps than I have here... 

I think that we have allot of people argueing over semantics. Over propriety of terms.

Those who do not wish to be represented by the transgender umbrela should not get upset when those of us who do want that association.

No one is forcing anyone to attend fund raisers or rallys. If the desire to not be seen as transgender is your motivation then avoid trans politics.
As it is there is a large number of transsexuals willing to stand under the transgender umbrela. Where we stand does not in any way threaten or invalidate anyone else. Those who agree with the umbrela have just as much right to self identify as anyone else.

(I know I wasn't going to post in these threds but I couldn't help it.)

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 15, 2011, 05:13:04 PM
Yeah, I know, its tough. But since its all argued out we're probably safe ...unless an innocent visitor happens upon us and we tear them to shreds like piranhas, hehe. j/k.

One difference we have going for us on this site that outsiders dont have is we care about each other.

:icon_hug:
Just brought a tear to my eye.

Family.

At the core is fear or ignorance or both.

Fear that the "other" are going to cause me to loose the opportunity to gain some rights

Ignorance that the law cannot discriminate between "us and them," we are all but one

Kate D

Transgender, transsexual, transcendental meditation... Whatever floats your boat, I'm happy for you  :)

Peace and Love dear friends

Hugs

- Virginia

I'm starting to think that this is something visceral, this is like "kids in the playground" stuff. It's like when you don't want to be seen with the uncool kids in the playground because you think that'll reflect badly on you and then you'll get rejected by the cooler kids.

I've been trying to figure out why it is that when I've been to trans women's groups, presenting (for the moment) as something more androgynous male than femme female, I've got the coldest shoulder from the trans women who are trying hardest to pass - and I think this is it. It's not a reaction based on reason (though people can dress it up to look like reason), it's some kind of playground survival mechanism kicking in or something.

So my theory: some post-transition women (for want of a better term) are afraid of being identified with mid-transition and non-transitioning transgender folk (because they want the "cooler kids" i.e. cisfolk to accept them), and that fear manifests as anger. If this is the case (and this is just a new-born theory on my part), how does one address such a fear in people?

[Disclaimer: in case it isn't blaringly obvious enough, I don't think anyone is inherently "cooler", that's why the quote marks are there]

Quote from: Padma on June 15, 2011, 06:41:39 PM
I'm starting to think that this is something visceral, this is like "kids in the playground" stuff. It's like when you don't want to be seen with the uncool kids in the playground because you think that'll reflect badly on you and then you'll get rejected by the cooler kids.

I've been trying to figure out why it is that when I've been to trans women's groups, presenting (for the moment) as something more androgynous male than femme female, I've got the coldest shoulder from the trans women who are trying hardest to pass - and I think this is it. It's not a reaction based on reason (though people can dress it up to look like reason), it's some kind of playground survival mechanism kicking in or something.

So my theory: some post-transition women (for want of a better term) are afraid of being identified with mid-transition and non-transitioning transgender folk (because they want the "cooler kids" i.e. cisfolk to accept them), and that fear manifests as anger. If this is the case (and this is just a new-born theory on my part), how does one address such a fear in people?

[Disclaimer: in case it isn't blaringly obvious enough, I don't think anyone is inherently "cooler", that's why the quote marks are there]

Dear Dr. Padma,

You hit the nail in the head. Te solution is to reassure that their fears are based on ignorance. By extending the umbrella we become stronger not weak

Kate D

Quote from: kate durcal on June 15, 2011, 06:53:42 PM
Dear Dr. Padma,

You hit the nail in the head. Te solution is to reassure that their fears are based on ignorance.
By extending the umbrella we become stronger not weak

Kate D

I think "ignorance" might be just a touch strong on the terminology.

If another trans-person (you pick the flavor), wishes to not associate with another type trans-person, there could be
many factors involved.  However, lets give Padma's theory a whirl. So, a transitioned transsexual whom is attending a
trans social event, group therapy, or women's group is hesitant to associate with someone more androgynous? Well,
there might be a perfectly fine explanation for it, yet let's give the benefit of doubt over to the idea that the
transitioned individual is simply not comfortable with being seen associating with the more androgynous person. First,
I'd be wondering why a fully transitioned transsexual is going to a trans-women's support group or social event
in the first place if she's indeed transitioned and integrated into a normative life. I rather suspect most transwomen
whom are fully transitioned do not go to these gatherings unless they still are experiencing issues within their own
lives. Second, if she's at said gathering emitting a vibe of 'stay away from me', she could just be shy, but more likely she's
something that most people would term with a word beginning with the letter "B".

Some people are just flat out unfriendly, no matter the situation. We'd have to know a lot more about said situation
before labeling someone as ignorant.


Dawn

For me, it's WHO they are, not WHAT they are, that matters.  The idea that we are both (fill in the blank) does not mean we'll get along famously.  Nor does the absence of that commonality mean we won't.  It's the person that matters.

Quote from: Sephirah on June 15, 2011, 12:09:59 PM
Be mindful with your posts on this one, folks. Learn the lessons of the past. That's all I have to say on the matter.

With respect Sephirah, that will effectively kill this discussion yet again. As mature adults, we should be able to discuss any issues without losing personal control. Once we lose that control, we should stop.

We had this discussion a while ago. One member, sadly, did lose her cool. She isn't here now. (Also sadly).

But issuing such warnings, effectively as a condition of the topic, makes it almost impossible to proceed.

Meh, you have to pay attention to the warnings before they matter.  LOL

And pretty much - and after SO much gain - there seems to be a splintering going on over something that once was pretty well understood - the basic vocabulary.  And, because law is a matter of vocabulary more than almost anything else, as long as we can't agree on what the words mean, who they apply to, and who they don't - then any more forward progress in going to be stalled.  If we can't discuss them here, and agree, then what's going to happen in a larger debate?

I think I can offer a fairly objective opinion from the peanut gallery (2nd time I've used that to describe myself) that calling the trans community a "borg collective" seems like a position of ignorance.  Just from the posts here, it seems pretty obvious that trans people are incredibly individualistic, as much so as anyone else certainly, and it seems like the communities that are forming around this shared challenge are all about recognizing and respecting that about each other.  The tone of that piece is of someone who feels they've got all the answers figured out and wants to belittle anyone who disagrees.  Like, if you just stop using labels and become individuals, all the problems will just vanish.  I'm not a fan of collectivism, but that's just naive.  I know people like this!  I've heard them described as vulgar libertarians and I wouldn't be shocked to discover that this person self-describes as libertarian (another very limited label).  I deal with them regularly, but fortunately have had some productive communication with them.  These are people who say "Why do you dwell on your gayness?" because they don't care that I'm gay, which is great, but they haven't experienced the B.S. I have all my life and my response, way oversimplified into too few words, is something like "Because bigots are obsessed with me being gay and people mess with me and/or hetero-normalize the world I must live in and the problem isn't going to go away by ignoring it."

Labels bug me too but they are an introduction with the understanding that you can't sum up all that a person is with one or two words.  I tell people I'm panentheist knowing they will immediately form a bunch of preconceptions about my spiritual beliefs based on discussions with others who use the label which may or may not actually apply to me.  It's just the best label I can come up with and it's just an intro until (or more likely unless) I expound on the details.  But it still says a lot for one word, like it eliminates me as a Christian fundamentalist or a member of a number of prominent and common organized religions.  I've tried rejecting labels but it's just not that helpful.  As long as we are using words to communicate, we are stuck with their limitations.  I actually like that I'm discovering new labels for various flavors of trans people in this forum.  They're limited, certainly, and can't tell me everything, but it's a starting place for getting to know the individual.

P.S. Damn, the captchas are hardcore on this forum!

I am going to say it....

The moderators are being much too gunshy with the warnings.

Seriously. If a topic is hurting your feelings talk to anouther mod or admin and then make the descission to play the heavy hand tactics.

As it is, as soon as someone starts to make a valid point, we have warnings issued and then we have to worry about a lock thred, a ban or suspension.

Not condusive to an adult conversation at all.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 18, 2011, 10:00:47 AM
As it is, as soon as someone starts to make a valid point, we have warnings issued and then we have to worry about a lock thred, a ban or suspension.

Not condusive to an adult conversation at all.

No one is preventing anyone from having adult conversations here. As long as a discussion doesn't violate the TOS, it is permitted. We have just posted Guidelines for the Opinions & Editorials Forum, please read them. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,100382.msg741352.html#msg741352 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,100382.msg741352.html#msg741352)

Also, a reminder of Rule #2

Quote
2. Any attempts to stage protests, dispute the site policy, the TOS/rules, or actions of the staff; in the public areas of this site will not be tolerated and will result in your removal. If you have issues I suggest you contact susan@susans.org and not bring your issues into the public spaces on this website. For the proper way to raise issues see term #20 below.

Zythyra (News Admin)

I wasnt staging a protest. I was complaining. I asked no one to raise a banner with me in solidarity to what I see as heavy handed tactics.

JHMO

There is a positive side to letting these discussions continue unabated and unmoderated: distillation. The 7,000+ members of Susans who aren't involved get to see exactly who wants, is willing to, or feels compelled to argue endlessly. Sorry to interrupt, carry on! Hugs, Tracey

Quote from: cynthialee on June 18, 2011, 11:15:36 AM
I wasnt staging a protest. I was complaining. I asked no one to raise a banner with me in solidarity to what I see as heavy handed tactics.

JHMO

Well, it is nice remainder that this site is not a democracy but rather a dicatoship. BTW I have no proble with it. From tiem to time I loose my "midfulness" and so I have to get a spank.

We should not be distracted by egos and prima donas, the law should cover all of us or none That is my banner  >:-)

Kate D

Quote from: kate durcal on June 18, 2011, 09:45:09 PM
Well, it is nice remainder that this site is not a democracy but rather a dicatoship.

The site belongs to Susan, we are all invited guests here.

At this point, the discussion has derailed from the OP and is in violation of both Rule 2, which I posted a reminder of earlier in the thread, and Rule 20. I am locking it.

Quote
20. The staff of this site exist to provide support to our members and visitors and to provide a safe environment by enforcing the TOS and rules of this web site and chat server. If you disagree with their actions or in regards to a specific situation feel free to contact Susan at her email address susan@susans.org with the details of the situation. She will review your complaint and take any corrective action that may be required by the situation. All user complaints and issues are taken seriously and investigated thoroughly.