Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Transgender VS Transsexual: Round 3
     
http://www.cristanwilliams.com/b/2011/06/27/transgender-vs-transsexual-round-3-2/ (http://www.cristanwilliams.com/b/2011/06/27/transgender-vs-transsexual-round-3-2/)

So, I just wanted to share an 1985 article in which out transsexual woman, Christine Jorgensen states the following:

    I am a transgender because gender refers to who you are as a human.

Oops! I guess we can't go blaming non-transsexuals for using the word "transgender" to describe transsexual people anymore. Looks like the most popular transsexual in the world may have been responsible for that one...

dead link...or at least not viewable to the general public.  No surprise with that particular site though...

spify

I'm getting it Ann.

for me, it's doesn't really matter if it is transsexual or transgender. Both makes sense if you look into the word and, at the same time both do not make sense if you look into the word.

Transgender:

Good --> It makes more of a connotation that one goes from one gender to another during transition
Bad  --> It may connotate that you were that one gender and then made a switch. To many of us, we felt the other gender for a very long time

Transsexual:

Good --> It is the official medical term to describe us who feel that we are in the wrong gender and are taking steps to correct that.
Bad --> It connotates a sexual objectification such as Heterosexual=Different sex gender arousal, Homosexual = Same sex gender arousal, Transsexual = Crossing genders sex gender arousal.

In all honesty both labels are correct and incorrect. Where people mess up is when they judge one person for using a different label than what another person uses. You can run into issues of "superiority" when one starts judging basing on labels. I've read a very interesting set of blogs where one girl is dead set against the word "transgender." In my opinion, she lost her audience because all I saw was "complain, complain, complain" rather than her explanations of why she chose one label over the other.  Likewise, the same is true for anyone who is dead set against the word "transsexual."

It really is a silly topic to be so upset about.

For me...if I had to pick a label it would be: female.   If someone needs me to be more specific (like at an airport or something or at a rally or an activist gathering), I say: Transgender.

But really, to each their own. I just walk away from people who become ridiculous with labels.

How about we just aknowledge the real label bigots hang on all of us who dare to violate the preconcieved notions the bigots hold so dear:

Quote from: spacial on June 28, 2011, 02:35:48 PM
I'm getting it Ann.

I'm getting a 403 error...

QuoteThe website declined to show this webpage
HTTP 403 
   Most likely causes:
This website requires you to log in. 

The link worked fine for me.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 28, 2011, 02:48:03 PM
How about we just aknowledge the real label bigots hang on all of us who dare to violate the preconcieved notions the bigots hold so dear:

TARGET.

so true


Also, the link works for me too

Quote from: Annah on June 28, 2011, 02:41:15 PM
[...]
In all honesty both labels are correct and incorrect.
[...]
It really is a silly topic to be so upset about.

(Hope you don't mind me cutting your quote down)

I couldn't agree more.

I've always wondered if all the trouble is because people forget that we all have different values in life. Some things that are dear to us are things other people don't care about much at all.

I used to be a real stickler for "transsexual", mostly because I was used to defending the gender variance of cissexual people. I used to wield "sex is between your legs, gender is between your ears" like a mallet and I wouldn't rest until everybody understood! Then I met a very conservative trans woman who strongly preferred "transgender". Her reason: "transsexual" has "sex" in it and that just makes it sound lurid! I've never taken the subject so seriously again, and I couldn't be more grateful to her.

If people actually took the time to learn what SEX, TRANS- and GENDER mean instead of coming up with their own definitions then there would be no mix up or confusion or silly debates. When you have one person saying "it means this" and another saying "NO it means this", then it's only going to end in tears. imo.

personally i like Transgender better.

The way the term transgender is used in the media and by cis gender people I wonder if we actually even get to have a say. In the media the two terms usually seem to be used synonymously. 

My doctor calls us her "transgenders" and "transgendered". I have not figured that one out.. Some people have said that I am "transgendering"  or "transing".

My daughter really dislikes the term transexual, because of the sexual part. And really when she is explaining me to friends (and  my partner and I are trying to explain to their parents)  transgender seems a little softer and less threatening. So I pretty much use transgender even though I often do want to defend that I am a transexual and feel like not using the transgender label anymore. Then I feel like not using either one. sigh.

I don't know. But it can be interesting reading all the debate, sometimes it is hard because it becomes so divisive within the community and people take it so personally. Ten years from now  who knows.

10 years from now there will be a new improved phrase that pisses off a bunch of folks.

::)

Quote from: Sarah7 on June 28, 2011, 10:45:36 PM
Um... I think that would require sex and gender to actually have specific and widely agreed on definitions.

Well that's my whole point, I think it's possible because they do have a particular meaning already, it's not like they're complicated words or anything. It's just some disagree with them because they want them to mean something they don't instead of using other more suitable words. A rose is a rose is a rose.

The broad definitions, philosophies, and perspectives of sex and gender is so diverse that I have taken 3 courses of it in undergrad, 4 courses in graduate work and another 3 or so in Post Graduate work and I have yet remotely even skimmed the surface.

To see people ....trans people no less, argue, fight and create websites of blogs to viciously attack other trans people is the greatest tragedy out of all of this.

We often talk about how suppressed we are by people who are bigots or anti lgbt people and we are genuinely upset from it. We loose jobs, families, loved ones and sometimes our very own lives because of our gender identity and yet we bicker and fight among ourselves within the trans community.

I've been an activist and a transgirl for a long time and long enough to know that so many of us will argue about anything without taking responsibilities for our own selves. But it happens and its human but that doesn't mean we can show respect to people who has differ opinions. If we bicker among ourselves over the words "transgender" and "transsexual", then do we really expect people who don't understand trans people to accept us when we cannot even accept ourselves or labels?

My advice is this: laws are not going to dramatically change or be struck down because one label is used over the other, a label is just a label and it does NOT dictate your destiny unless you want it too, and stop arguing about which label is better....Palestine and Israel has a better chance of mutual and unadulterated peace before the debate of "transgender" and "transsexual" is settled.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 28, 2011, 11:19:45 PM
10 years from now there will be a new improved phrase that pisses off a bunch of folks.

::)

^--- this :).

What works for me is that sex is the state of being male or female. How does one determine this? Well I feel that the world is obsessed with one word answers and often fail to see the problems this pov causes. Genitalia is but one of many factors that give shape to primary sexual characteristics and with knowing hormones are largely responsible for secondary sexual characteristics missing one of these factors doesn't override all the others. Gender is simply the state of feminine and masculine. It's when the word is hyphened that it's meaning extents and I think this is where a lot of people get confused. This is a point of view where putting trans in front of these words makes such simple sense that I feel baffled by how anyone could kick up a fuss. BUT alas as it's been said no matter how much even I consider these to be common sense definitions that have been set in stone for a long time someone is always going to shake their head at them, all I can say is this works for me... and without expecting them to work for anyone else I'll still post it.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 28, 2011, 11:19:45 PM
10 years from now there will be a new improved phrase that pisses off a bunch of folks.

Linguistics is serious business.

Everyone's opinion is equally valid. If something matters to a person then it matters, and trying to write it off isn't helpful.

That being said, it should be understood that opinion is just that, and stating it is perfectly fine... but when it goes beyond that, to trying to prove why your opinion is right and someone else's is wrong, that's when the trouble starts. Unfortunately, the case is often such that it turns into the irresistable force meeting the immovable object. Disagreeing with someone is part of a healthy debate, and once it's been stated why that disagreement exists, and if no compromise can be reached, then maybe the best thing to do is just to agree to disagree.

I don't think Annah was implying anything about a specific viewpoint, Val, because all sides of this issue are expressed equally forcefully. It takes two (or more) to argue. ;)

Quote from: cynthialee on June 28, 2011, 11:19:45 PM
10 years from now there will be a new improved phrase that pisses off a bunch of folks.

::)

Well, the way things are going, I rather think it will still be the same one, lol. This issue was going on when I joined Susan's back in '08 and is no more resolved than it ever was. I'm not holding my breath.

Quote from: Annah on June 29, 2011, 02:41:02 AMMy advice is this: laws are not going to dramatically change or be struck down because one label is used over the other, a label is just a label and it does NOT dictate your destiny unless you want it too, and stop arguing about which label is better....Palestine and Israel has a better chance of mutual and unadulterated peace before the debate of "transgender" and "transsexual" is settled.

I've always wondered how this type of thing breaks down age-wise. Not by how they identify, but by how much they care about how they and other people identify. Way too much of trans history (at least in the US) is marked by different factions of trans* people loudly exclaiming that they and only they are deserving of dignity and respect. It might take another generation or so before we put those times completely behind us.

I get the same 403 error.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 29, 2011, 11:51:36 AM
Words are important and hold meaning for all of us. To simply call it bickering implies that those who disagree with the majority opinion dont have a right to speak up or their differing opinions are somehow keeping everyone back because there is no clear ONE voice. It sounds like it is annoying to some to have people disagree with the majority and they should just stop it.

Respectfully, calling it bickering is kind of disrespectful/belittling. I think a better term is discussion. We are all having a discussion which I think is healthy.

Respectfully, I think you do not understand what I was trying to convey :)

I presented both sides of the issue. I was not trying to direct any attacks on anyone, and yes, I do stand behind my word "bickering" because that's what it is.

When two sides of the fence fights endlessly, I call that bickering.

I am not trying to downplay the action of debating as I find debating to be very healthy, but my post was not about debating. It was concerning those who attack others based on their identification of a label. There is a difference between attacking and debating. I am not even saying this thread is attacking anyone. I merely brought up examples of how trans people transcend debating and then go all out dirty glove fighting over something so silly as a label.

So yes. I am calling people who fight with others because they do not agree with another person's label as bickering. I am sorry if that offends you personally as I had no intention on making my post towards you. It was an neutral post aimed at anyone who goes to the 9nth degree and beyond the civility of debate to attack people.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 29, 2011, 12:43:50 PM
I am sounding so argumentative, im sorry.
So are you saying once us older trans people die out the world is going to be a better place?

Valerie, i really think you read too much into things. You get the worse ideas out of some of these comments! I am sure she was not saying the world would be a better place when older trans people die.

What Raya is saying is that once a controversy is put onto the table, it is a natural course of human evolution for people to become more socially acceptable of that specific contraversy which was considered out of societal norms. This is a true statement.

For example, when women were being considered to be able to vote it stirred an outrage. Through the progression of evolved generations where they were born and raised in the environment of women voting, it became a society norm of outrage to a society norm of acceptance.

The same can be said with the continual evolution of African Americans and their civil rights. 80 years ago in the South it was an outrage, now through the progression of time, it has been getting better and it is a society norm that African Americans in the South has every right as a white person.

The same is true for Gays and Lesbians

The same will be true for trans people

She was not indicating that once you die, things will get better. :)

Bickering is different than debating. This is why I stated you did not read my original post closely. I already explained myself to you twice. I feel no need doing it a third time.

Blessings

Annah

Quote from: Annah on June 29, 2011, 03:54:02 PM
Bickering is different than debating.

If opposing sides cannot agree on what they are talking about, a debate cannot take place.

I fail to see how defining terms is bickering.

I am getting a little tired of the Round and Round we seem to get on this topic.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on June 29, 2011, 04:58:15 PM
I am getting a little tired of the Round and Round we seem to get on this topic.

Yes but if you reread the thread closely you will see that positions softened and some points were conceded.
Granted the tone is turning again but it has been sorta like a wave curve in the rhetoric.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on June 29, 2011, 04:49:27 PM
If opposing sides cannot agree on what they are talking about, a debate cannot take place.

I fail to see how defining terms is bickering.

Actually, you can debate on issues where the opposing sides cannot agree before during or after. I would be safe to say that the vast majority of debates never end with both sides agreeing but that is the sense of a debate; to place different viewpoints on the table and explain why you believe in your convictions of argument and why the opposing party believes in their conviction. usually it does not end with two parties agreeing and debating really isn't meant for two sides to agree to certain terms of the opposing arguments: that is called diplomacy. ;)

In my opinion, defining terms is not bickering at all. It is when one descends from the civility of sportsman(women) debating to a hostile viewpoint is when it becomes bickering.

For example, one can debate with respect why they like the word transsexual and why they don't agree with transgender (or the other way around). It becomes bickering when someone says "I'm a transgender (or transsexual) because I am a real trans and not a fake girl living out a fetish so those who label themselves as transgender (or transsexual) are destroying the true image of trans people."  I use this example because it is very prevalent in blogs that bicker about what labels are right and what are not(as opposed to debating labels).

Next people will be debating the word Blue, "no blue is for things that are green! ..idiot". *facepalm*. A rose is a rose is a rose.

they didn't invent the dictionary for nothing.

Kia Ora,

::) I just leave this kind of thing for "trans-people" to argue about...It's nothing to do with me  ;)

Metta Zenda :)

Wowa, what a lot of the most erudite inputs I dare say!
If sometimes being a bit "blond"? let me say this though:

"Transsexual" has the word *sex* in it and it makes folks get knocked a jolly bit harder when using it.
The word "Transgender" --- has the word *gender* and it's pretty mellow compared to *sex*, right?

So if you want to drive home a point about "us" with no uncertainty of impact, use transsexual (I mostly do if not always),
If a bit more "shy" and you like our listener be spared the full impact? Use Transgender --- and I also like teddy bears, cuddly things, and am actually such a nice girl (but watch out for my "bitch" also). Giggle.

Don't overlook a known fact that there is *POWER* in words. Aye!
Some 2000 years back St. John started is epistle with: "In the beginning there was the WORD and the word was..." etc. etc.
The man actually knew what he was talking about, um.
Greetings,
Axelle

if people are too shy or whatever to use the correct word because it has the word 'sex' in it then they have serious mental issues and should perhaps look no further.

Quote from: Muffin on June 30, 2011, 01:32:56 AM
if people are too shy or whatever to use the correct word because it has the word 'sex' in it then they have serious mental issues and should perhaps look no further.

that's just a tad bit overreactive and unnecessary. This is exactly what I meant with my earlier post. Those who disagree with a specific type of label or who has a difference in opinion is attacked. In this case, the person is classified as having a serious mental issue.

Hard for us to demand respect from other people outside the trans perspectives when we cannot even have respect for each other.

Quote from: Annah on June 30, 2011, 01:44:27 AM
that's just a tad bit overreactive and unnecessary.

lols not really, I mean it's a word that has a meaning and there is nothing wrong with it, if they can't use it for whatever lame reason they cling on to then they only have their self to blame. If they're going to swear black and blue about using an inappropriate word because they're not grown up enough to handle using the word 'sex' in public then what is a sane person going to do? Bow down to their child-like ways?

If you mean transsexual then say transsexual if you mean transgender say transgender if you mean female then say female. Seems pretty strange forward to moi! ^___^

When we reach for a dictionary definition, we have to be willing to accept that a dictionary is a polaroid snapshot of a word's meaning, in a particular context. Current usage is sometimes ahead (and at least subtly different) from dictionary definition. And it depends where you are in the world of people who speak the language your dictionary is for.

Just to cite an example, the US medical profession (and therefore Americans in general) tends to use the term "transsexual" where the British medical profession tends to use "transgender" to mean pretty much the same thing. I've already seen (and even, I'm embarrassed to say, once participated in) arguments online about usage of these terms which boiled down to a Brit and an American both digging in their heels and saying "no, it means this!!" Word usage is much more contextual than we're led to believe.

The point I'm making is that a word means whatever a significant enough group of people thinks it means, and therefore often ends up with multiple or shifting meanings. And the history of language is the history of people arguing over the meanings of words (there have been wars in the Islamic world over the meaning of one word in the q'ran).

So I think in the trans debate, the focus of attention should not be on "does this word mean that?" but on the much more significant issue of why groups of people want to use language to exclude each other.

Thanks girls, it is what the word *sex* MEANS to *OTHERS*!
I personally can talk just about anything but what's the use if your audience is getting very uneasy? Not gonna help you one bit for sure.
So one has to be aware if you want those *others* come along you and have to consider their feelings and notions also. BIG TIME.
Nobody is an island, and as for that SA goes, it has most of it's words usages from Brittan.
Also the British are somewhat uneasy to talk about SEX, and so are South Africans (white or black).
Maybe this did not come across to clear in my post?
Luv,
Axelle

I prefer the label: ME, PERSON, HUMAN.

But I like to tell some people: I'm not a can of beans so dont label me.

It hadn't occurred to me before, but here in Britain, the meaning of the word "transsexual" is coloured for a lot of people by its use in the cult film The Rocky Horror Picture Show. Through that film, it's associated in people's minds here more with bisexuality/cross-dressing than anything specifically "gender". That's one reason why I'm reluctant to use that word to describe myself here.
Weird how these things can lurk under the surface.

but regardless of location sex means one thing and gender means another, by definition. And that seems to be pretty universally know. At least in my experience. It's sad when a bunch of people want to try and change the meaning of a word and then for other people to say "that's just the way it is", or something etc. Blah.... why am I in this thread anyway? My bad mood/need to vent has passed? :S

Quote from: Muffin on June 30, 2011, 05:01:44 AM
but regardless of location sex means one thing and gender means another, by definition.

Yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you? ::) But part of the problem is exactly the changes in language over time. Looking at dictionary definitions of Transsexual, for example, you get:

A person born with the physical characteristics of one sex who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex.

or

Having the physical characteristics of one sex but a strong and persistent desire to belong to the other.

Now to me, the word "sex" there should be updated to be "gender", since it seems very old-fashioned to me to talk about "the sexes" when referring to men and women (as in "battle of the" and so on). But a look on the net at all these blazing blogs and discussions show that there are thousands of slightly-to-extremely differing views on what these terms mean (or "should" mean). Go figure.

In a way, I can understand how people get so passionate about all this. For one thing, no-one likes being pre-emptively labelled by someone else. But conversely, no-one likes being told "you can't call yourself this, we have dibs on this label and its definition."

Not sure it's considered dibs but just respect for a language, like I said it seems like there are people that want to confuse the meaning of words once they are hyphenated. If you respect the meaning of these words.. trans, sex and gender then there should be no mix up at all. It's when people decide to put their own twist on them and for me personally I refuse to dignify a response to their existence when they do so. People are going to use these words incorrectly it only becomes a problem when people pay attention to them. Just like a lot of issues/news articles that get posted here. So many I feel are posted to bait people into discussion that is really unnecessary. Doesn't get anyone anywhere and just gives the abusers-of-language the attention they want, so why post it? Ditch the bad news and bring on the good news already!!!! xP

Quote from: Muffin on June 30, 2011, 05:33:06 AM
Just like a lot of issues/news articles that get posted here. So many I feel are posted to bait people into discussion that is really unnecessary. Doesn't get anyone anywhere and just gives the abusers-of-language the attention they want, so why post it?

I don't post articles such as this to bait anyone, that would be both unproductive and counter to the rules of this forum. I post them simply because the opinions expressed in them exist, and people might want to be aware of these and/or discuss.

QuoteDitch the bad news and bring on the good news already!!!! xP

We do post good news (when we find it). Interestingly, those stories seem to get less views and less comments.

Z

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 30, 2011, 06:04:44 AM
The transgender community defines everyone as transgender, whether post-op or not. That is how I and some other post-ops were initially drawn into the conversation. They attach your status to their definition and believe they have a right to represent and lobby for you whether you agree with it or not. They believe they have a right to define and label you in the media, whether you like it or not.

Even if you are not trans-ing anything any longer. When describing 'you' publicly, they believe they have the right to prefix your gender with the word transgender, instead of just woman.

Sorry... unfortunately, that is where we stand. It is not just an argument of whether to use transsexual or transgender. It's deeper than that.

To them, you are a transgender woman, and always will be. This is why there are so many trans blog articles denouncing transgender.

and to carry Val's comment one step further, it would be to add that when those of us who object, we get told we are making much ado about nothing (as we have now seen time and again).  Talk about a group marginalizing OUR experiences...

Ditch the bad news and bring on the good news already!!!! xP

As veteran left-wing reporter Scoop Nisker used to end his broadcasts:

And if you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own.

In today's breaking news... Tekla is a twat!


now there's some good news I can get my chops around!!

</making of own news>

So what is the lobiest too say..."Senator I stand before you today to give voice to this group of people.....But definatly not those people over there."

???!!??

?

That's not breaking news, it's established historical fact.  It's also a fact that Scoop was right.  Bad news only gets changed to good news because people work to make it happen.

C'mon folks, no more personal attacks please.

Good girl Padma, thank you.
now a question to the experts, plenty with this thread there are, um.

1) When I firstly learned about my condition I thought it was called being transgender(ed).

2) Learning some more going to the gate-keeper shrink, going on RLE and HRT I then understood I was a transsexual, mainly because I insisted to have GRS? I guess that was it.

3) Now........ it may turn out I can not have GRS ($$$ blown on brain-ops) and also I just turned 65 with the earliest GRS date after I will have turned 66. One year moratorium after brain-ops.

4) Just for more of same ->-bleeped-<-e, I have high blood-pressure issues and I THINK is due to E!

So, that makes me now transgender(ed) once more? Really?

If so, then this whole discussion seems pretty dang silly to me in the first place. Yet I have been wrong before and am very willing to learn.
Pondering,
Axelle

I would think that post-transition would be valuable information to have on one's medical records (in a suitably confidential way) solely in case of medical complications later in life - but I can't see any other reason why anyone should be considered or labelled trans once they've trans-ed, unless they choose to be called that.

"So, that makes me now transgender(ed) once more? Really?"

changing only your genitalia does not decide whether you're transsexual or not. Sex is determined by more than just what is between your legs! Changing your secondary sex characteristics and physiological make up with HRT holds as much if not more weight than that in the bigger picture. Though most law systems require some form of surgery unfortunately.

Quote from: Padma on June 30, 2011, 10:13:49 AM
I would think that post-transition would be valuable information to have on one's medical records (in a suitably confidential way) solely in case of medical complications later in life - but I can't see any other reason why anyone should be considered or labelled trans once they've trans-ed, unless they choose to be called that.

sounds good to me

Just keep in mind that unless you transitioned before digital records or pre-puberty the prosepct for true stealth is basicaly non existant.
The children that transition before they make a digital foot print and people like Ann, who transsex'd back in the day need not worry about being outed. But for the majority, even the ones who pass flawlessly the potential to be outed exists.

(forgot where I was going with this one, I will post it anyways....maybe it will come back to me)

It's only a personal attack^* if I take it personally.  And I don't.  Ever.  I was called worse things than that all day at work, and that was by people who like me, usually.^**

Years ago, someone at work who didn't much care for me (shocking I know) said some bad words, actually rather creatively.  The steward who had running problems with this guy (and face it, he had to be a jerk if he didn't like me) gets all hot to trot that he's going to write him up (and the fines are heavy) for 'personally insulting' me.  But I stepped up, and with blazing solipsism firmly applied with keen Jesuitical logic and said: "It's only personal if I take it personally, and I didn't and don't.  And its only an insult if I feel insulted by it, and I don't.  And I want you to make that the first line of your report - that I do not feel personally insulted."  So much for the report.  And while I don't know about 'twit' I'm pretty much sure that from some angles that was a total prick move on my part.  But, years later now, that guy is great with me.  When he works for me, he works.  I've even heard that he's been caught defending me, or at least saying nice things about me.  He hasn't dashed out to get girls sox with pink stripes to wear to work as a salute to my sartorial splendor, but oh well.  Whatever small temporary satisfaction I might have gained from his 'punishment' (and the fine goes to the Union, not to me) was far outweighed by the long term gain of changing my status and relationship with this guy.

In the end, my sense of self-actualization trumps whatever vocabulary he would choose to employ anyway.  Once you know that the opinions of others does not, and can not, change who you really are, then it's pretty easy to get over the hump.

And, I'm also pretty sure that what Scoop was saying was a prick type statement too.  A zen trickster prick perhaps, but a prick none the less.   That's why I love it, use it and have had it follow me around for 30 years now.  It's not that the news is bad, the news is bad because your not doing anything to change it and make it better.  It's not the fault of people doing 'bad things' it's really mostly the fault of good people doing nothing.  And good people hate hearing that because they know it's true.



* - It's not even an attack, 'attack' is a very strong verb, very deliberate and with physical manifestations.  That was only an insult, and only a grazing one as I find the use of the word 'twit' to be very British and Monty Pythonesque, and outside of Monty Python I never hear it used.  It's kind of quaint and archaic to my ears and not something that anyone on the West Coast would ever say.

** - I always thought I should be in the Guinness Book of World Records because I bet the word 'bitch' has been used toward me more than toward any other male-bodied person on this planet.  They think it's an insult, I think they're just pissed that I got my way, and they didn't. 

Tekla is right.
Calling a douche a douche loses it's effect when the douche happily confirms their douchebag status.
:D

plus I don't expect anyone to take my words too seriously! especially when I'm obviously having a ->-bleeped-<-house day and posting ->-bleeped-<- in a ->-bleeped-<- thread. etc.

Quote from: tekla on June 30, 2011, 10:21:58 AM
* - It's not even an attack, 'attack' is a very strong verb, very deliberate and with physical manifestations.  That was only an insult, and only a grazing one as I find the use of the word 'twit' to be very British and Monty Pythonesque, and outside of Monty Python I never hear it used.  It's kind of quaint and archaic to my ears and not something that anyone on the West Coast would ever say.

Just meant as a gentle reminder - I'm exercising my duty to remind us that use of strong language to have a go at each other here is against the TOS. Perhaps 'attack' was an overstrong word, but I don't want to encourage the use of strong language to batter each other with (no matter whether the battee has mysterious personal immunity :)). For the record, the word used was not "twit" and in some cultures would be considered harsh as an insult - I'm protecting the "ears" of the general public here, nothing to hear, move along :).

Would there be Transgederqueers? Or Transandrogyn's?

Words and phrases that fly on their own, work.
If you have to keep throwing it up to make it look like it's flying, it's just not flying.
It's just being flung. There's one...it's transflunging.

Quote from: Elise on June 30, 2011, 11:05:21 AM
Transsexual havealwaybeen postop periodit is amedical term .

I respectfully disagree with that... in my opinion, transsexual is not a term exclusive to post-ops.  Transsexual is any person who seeks to alter their bodies through irreversible surgical means, including those who have a burning desire to do so but can't for whatever reason (such as poor general health or medical history).  I consider myself transsexual because the second I have enough money cobbled together--which will be in about 25 years at my going rate--I fully intend to have surgery to correct what I strongly dislike about my body.

Also, I'd like to add my gentle reminder to Padma's: can we please tone down the attacks, both overt and passive aggressive?  It won't lead to anything but thread closure.  Muchas gracias, my friends! :)

Quote from: Axelle on June 30, 2011, 09:13:54 AM
Good girl Padma, thank you.
now a question to the experts, plenty with this thread there are, um.

1) When I firstly learned about my condition I thought it was called being transgender(ed).

2) Learning some more going to the gate-keeper shrink, going on RLE and HRT I then understood I was a transsexual, mainly because I insisted to have GRS? I guess that was it.

3) Now........ it may turn out I can not have GRS ($$$ blown on brain-ops) and also I just turned 65 with the earliest GRS date after I will have turned 66. One year moratorium after brain-ops.

4) Just for more of same ->-bleeped-<-e, I have high blood-pressure issues and I THINK is due to E!

So, that makes me now transgender(ed) once more? Really?

If so, then this whole discussion seems pretty dang silly to me in the first place. Yet I have been wrong before and am very willing to learn.
Pondering,
Axelle

In my opinion, pick something that you are comfortable with :) Transgender, transsexual; whatever you want. At the last session with my Therapist, she told me,

"labels do not make the woman nor does it dictate her status; her heart does."

I think a great rule of the thumb for the whole terminology arguement is in fact sexuality and the word transition together.  For the record, sex and gender is used interchangably, sex usually being used in more formal areas for some reason.  I see its usage pop up for gender a lot. o.o;
Anyway~ Transexual: We have a body gender, so sexuality will be heterosexual/homosexual according to the from/to of the body.  The mind comes into play and shifts the situation because it's the opposite gender.  It transitions from a homo/hetero situation into being a hetero/homo situation respectively for the individual.
Transgender: The mind is off the body's sex, so it's a transition-ish kind of thing, but whether sexuality is put into question/reverse is not considered, therefor it is an apt umbrella term.

I think that's a really good way to think about it, and IMO clears a lot of questions.  Now, the idea of if a post-op is transexual.  Well, yes, I seriously believe so.  Why?  Simple.  When you say 'cis' or 'trans' it's always about the physical body's birth.  Can anyone post-op seriously say they're cisgender?  That doesn't make sense at all, because the quality that's always been argued that the only thing that makes a cisgender different from a transgender is that they had a natal birth of their gender o_o; But the two terms are the only terms we have to work with.  There was a transition of the situation in the first place, so a post-op is closer to the criteria of transsexual...thusly, the person is trans still. o.o;
"Oh hey!  This is in our past!" Oh...well, ok.  Fine. o.o; I can understand this wasn't something you went through all for nothing.  If you REALLY want to dump your past stuff, then we have an identity for that still.  It's simple.

Woman.  (Or man, respectively) Ultimately tran/cis is just about dealing with the past, so they're qualities from the past.  If you want to refer to only the present, it's only appropriate to say woman/man respectively, not tran/cis/omegeaigol/whatever.
If you want to argue about non-ops and pre-ops, I have a big problem with that.  Simple, transition is an incomplete process.  SRS does NOT give you a full, naturally your body naughty bits. (Especially if you're FtM) As seen in understanding what exactly the naughty bits of a SRS patient is, it is 'the best we could do' literally.  If a pre/non-op cannot dismiss them in 'that they are not a woman', I not only find it a snobby nobleman thing, but also fridge logic, because that gives SRS patiants no room to stand on themselves. :\

That's just how I see it, I apologize that I do not actually mean to offend anyone...I'm just...trying to state my understanding of this situation and figuring out how it can be seen to with updates, S: because I"m getting quite confused here about it all...

I agree. There should be an exist clause.
But that is on the doctors who write the DSM not the law makers.

We need to get that exit clause first....

Knowing what I do about profit motivated medicine I wouldn't hold your breath for that exist clause any time soon.
The doctors will always demand their piece of you Val.

addendum: I hate to sound like a pessimistic ->-bleeped-<- but I don't see a positive future at this point.

To be honest...I wish that there was something to keep it from being such a huge ordeal that we NEED an exit clause in the first place :'(

Quote from: Sabriel Facrin on June 30, 2011, 05:10:34 PM
To be honest...I wish that there was something to keep it from being such a huge ordeal that we NEED an exit clause in the first place :'(

If you have something in the DSM, then you always want to have some semblance of an exit criterion at which point the diagnosis ceases to be applicable...and there is a very bright line for the transsexual.  At the point that the genitals conform with the mental indices, then the diagnosis of GID no longer exists.  The same cannot be said for someone who is not surgery tracked, which begs the real question of whether/why those persons should even WANT a mental diagnosis in place...

A reminder about refraining from personal attacks, or even insults. Also, please keep the discussion to the point of the OP. The article linked was specifically about when various terminology was first found in print.

News Admin

Quote from: Sabriel Facrin on June 30, 2011, 12:48:21 PM
For the record, sex and gender is used interchangably,

this is a huge part of the problem that leads to misunderstanding, maybe it's stupidity or plain ol' laziness. If someone uses the wrong words then it passes on to someone else and spreads like a viral meme to the point where people claim "their" version they heard on the grapevine is the correct one instead of double checking with the dictionary first. I don't think we should encourage the misuse of words... or consider it to be "ok" or "just the way it is".

damn canadians ..well considering we're speaking english here let's pop over to hhmmm ENGLAND? makes sense?....

ENGLISH oxford dictionary....

"The word gender has been used since the 14th century as a grammatical term , referring to classes of noun designated as masculine, feminine, or neuter in some languages. The sense 'the state of being male or female' has also been used since the 14th century, but this did not become common until the mid 20th century. Although the words gender and sex both have the sense 'the state of being male or female', they are typically used in slightly different ways: sex tends to refer to biological differences, while gender refers to cultural or social ones"

lols this is laughable but anyway I'm 100% English. IF you don't think sex refers to the biological side and gender refers to the masculine and feminine then ...... go and write a blog about it ...or something. *over it*.


For bonus lols:

I'm just going to do this....

Mirriam-Webster:
1 a : a subclass within a grammatical class (as noun, pronoun, adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms
b : membership of a word or a grammatical form in such a subclass
c : an inflectional form showing membership in such a subclass
2 a : sex <the feminine gender>
b : the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

American Heritage:
gen·der  (jndr)
n.
1. Grammar
a. A grammatical category used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms.
b. One category of such a set.
c. The classification of a word or grammatical form in such a category.
d. The distinguishing form or forms used.
2. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
3.
a. The condition of being female or male; sex.
b. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender.

Collins English Dictionary:
gender [ˈdʒɛndə]
n
1. (Linguistics / Grammar) a set of two or more grammatical categories into which the nouns of certain languages are divided, sometimes but not necessarily corresponding to the sex of the referent when animate See also natural gender
2. (Linguistics / Grammar) any of the categories, such as masculine, feminine, neuter, or common, within such a set
3. Informal the state of being male, female, or neuter
4. Informal all the members of one sex the female gender
[from Old French gendre, from Latin genus kind]


my bolds are higher in the lists than yours, I win! The end.

Seriously...?  :icon_raving:  This isn't even a discussion.  This is just petty garbage and the type of snide passive aggressive attacks that we've begged and pleaded to have checked at the door.

It ends here.  Thread locked.