Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I can certainly see the importance of the "Do I pass" thread and I think it is a very important thread to have. I know when I was transitioning, I would def want to post in there to get honest feedback.

However, I have noticed somewhat of a trend in the thread. I didn't know if I was the only one; but there seems to be some people who respond "oh you def pass" when it is clearly evident that the person posting those pics would not.

Now, don't get me wrong or misunderstand me. The great vast majority of all the girls posting in there will pass one day. I can def see their features become more feminine when undergoing hrt, etc etc but I would assume when you tell a girl "oh you def pass" would be damaging if they currently do not. To me, this could be a very bad thing because the girl can become very confident in their ability to pass (confidence is great) but what happens when they go out in the world and gets clocked or has a bad experience? It could really effect them in a negative way.

With that said, No one should ever say "no you don't pass" without offering any suggestions to help them approve their appearance, clothing, etc etc. As I came to understand that thread, people with experience in living real life experience or who has done things better their reflections could pass their words of wisdom down to other girls who are just starting the process.

There are some girls who do offer honest feedback on what to do to help the girl out. I have seen excellent suggestions that would help the girls out but mostly this thread i am creating is about those who pretty much pastes a copied "oh you pass" after every pic laid down.

To me, telling a girl "you pass" when they clearly are not there yet is just as damaging as telling a girl "you don't pass" without offering suggestions to better their look.

I don't know....maybe it's just me but if I was in the beginnings of transition, I would feel a little "belittled" if someone told me I passed without any explanations when I knew down in my heart I had a long ways to go.

One of my best friends were very honest with me when I was transitioning. She would say "you are getting there! But you may wanna trim those eyebrows a bit" or "sweety, you just started HRT, you need to give yourself some more time before features change." Those were very critical comments to me. One friend was even honest to me and told me that my hair would clock me everytime. She gave me suggestions and after a hair transplant in the forehead region I became more confident and I tryly appreciated her honesty. If you look at the thread that has our before pics...look up mine. You'll see exactly what I am talking about.

When someone comes to me and asks if they pass I always tell them that I look at these features to determine if someone can blend in.

1. Their voice. You can be the most beautiful woman in the world but if your voice is masculine, no amounts of FFS or makeup or HRT will help.
2. Hair. Your hairline is very important. If you have a very receding hairline (like I did), that will get you clocked pretty easily too.

Fortunately, both of these steps can be easily fixed. Voice can be fixed if practiced. And your hair can be fixed through transplants and if you cannot afford that,  you can find an awesome inexpensive wig that looks extremely lifelike. (When it comes to wigs, there is a good inexpensive wig and there is the expensive wig that really looks fake..it just takes a lot of research and what hair style conforms to your face better).

But yea, for the most part. If someone really looks like they may not pass to well, don't just say "oh you pass!" Be honest! But with that honest show respect and offer suggestions that would help her!

This is a support forum and so people like to give out positive response whether or not it is actually true.

Quote from: girl_ashley on June 30, 2011, 02:25:46 PM
This is a support forum and so people like to give out positive response whether or not it is actually true.

I would have to 100% disagree with this. A place for support is not a place where people will give out false responses. I am sure the girls who post in the "Do I pass?" thread wants honest feedback. One would assume the "You look fabulous darling" thread is about positive responses so if they want just positive responses then they could there.

One of the biggest assets of a support group is the ability to be honest with each other and to help each other on this journey and to hold each other accountable. To lie in a support forum negates the very essence of why support even exists. So I have to respectfully disagree with your ideals on this matter.

I just posted there recently and the input I got was that I didn't pass due to my hair line and forehead.

Working as intended.

Quote from: girl_ashley on June 30, 2011, 02:25:46 PM
This is a support forum and so people like to give out positive response whether or not it is actually true.

for all of the other disagreements I have had with annah, I have to agree with her on this one...I would opine that making a positive response even when it is NOT a true statement is the very antithesis of support.  One would be doing the poster a tremendous disservice and, potentially, placing them in harm's way. 

I understand that nobody wants to make negative comments, but the reality is that some of those who have posted will be clocked no matter what they do (I am reminded of the scene from A League of Their Own where the suggestion for how to help one of the girls was 'lots of night games').  Is it fair to them, especially in an anonymous setting, to give false senses of security? 

There also exists the fact that there is more to 'passing' than a head shot...voice, mannerisms, overall body structure and a host of other cues that are not readily apparent in a few online photos factor into the equation.  Further, there also exists the fact that characteristics picked out quickly by those on the board may be cues missed by the general public.   

 

Quote from: cynthialee on June 30, 2011, 02:42:24 PM
I just posted there recently and the input I got was that I didn't pass due to my hair line and forehead.

Working as intended.

I just read the responses to you, Cynthia. One girl said you didn't pass because of your hair line and another said you did pass. Now, if I were you, I would be like "huh?"

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that we are all trans and sometimes what we see can be different on what other people see. Like I always tell my friends.....you wanna know if you pass or not? Go to the mall and strike up a conversation with some teenage girls in the food court.

Quote from: Annah on June 30, 2011, 02:51:00 PM
I just read the responses to you, Cynthia. One girl said you didn't pass because of your hair line and another said you did pass. Now, if I were you, I would be like "huh?"

I would like to point out, not everyone has the same opinion, and judging passing from a photo is an opinion, there isn't a set of criteria that are absolute in determining if someone does or doesn't. Basically it is totally legitimate for two people to see the same photo and have a differing viewpoint on it. If nothing else, I wouldn't assume someone was lying in the name of being supportive, even if they are, it is hardly tactful to assume that they are.

That being said, if someone asks for critical opinions then I would give it, but otherwise I would not lie, nor would I say something negative.

Quote from: Annah on June 30, 2011, 02:51:00 PM
Like I always tell my friends.....you wanna know if you pass or not? Go to the mall and strike up a conversation with some teenage girls in the food court.

Annah, I did make the same point you've made very early on in the "Do I pass"thread.

Quote from: Hikari on June 30, 2011, 04:11:29 PM
I would like to point out, not everyone has the same opinion, and judging passing from a photo is an opinion, there isn't a set of criteria that are absolute in determining if someone does or doesn't. Basically it is totally legitimate for two people to see the same photo and have a differing viewpoint on it. If nothing else, I wouldn't assume someone was lying in the name of being supportive, even if they are, it is hardly tactful to assume that they are.

That being said, if someone asks for critical opinions then I would give it, but otherwise I would not lie, nor would I say something negative.

Hikari

I completely agree with you. One should give suggestions and never be rude of brash.

Also, I do agree that everyone's views on how they see someone else can be different. My thread was really for the same ones who keep saying "oh you pass" over and over and over despite the situation given.

There might just be a lot of people who really aren't very good judges of this.

I completely agree, I see it on the FTM thread too, I think people are just trying to be nice, but I agree that's its better to nicely tell someone that you don't think they pass, and what to do to try and fix it.

I think we can all see who passes and who doesn't pass but we want to be politically correct and not upset the forum police!

No one responded to me in the thread, however I did get a message with some links to before and afters. This was enough to placate my anxiety.

To me I care less about satisfying someone elses perception of beautiful, and more about satisfying mine.

Dont get me wrong, I am terrified that I will look like a monster, but I am working out dilligently and dieting so we will see.

I agree though Annah. All I care about is the truth. Please do not lie to me to try to make me feel better. Thats what I call bull->-bleeped-<-, and if I am already stressed out, nothing makes me more stressed that people trying to bull->-bleeped-<- me. 

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 30, 2011, 02:45:07 PM
for all of the other disagreements I have had with annah, I have to agree with her on this one...I would opine that making a positive response even when it is NOT a true statement is the very antithesis of support.  One would be doing the poster a tremendous disservice and, potentially, placing them in harm's way. 

I understand that nobody wants to make negative comments, but the reality is that some of those who have posted will be clocked no matter what they do (I am reminded of the scene from A League of Their Own where the suggestion for how to help one of the girls was 'lots of night games').  Is it fair to them, especially in an anonymous setting, to give false senses of security? 

There also exists the fact that there is more to 'passing' than a head shot...voice, mannerisms, overall body structure and a host of other cues that are not readily apparent in a few online photos factor into the equation. Further, there also exists the fact that characteristics picked out quickly by those on the board may be cues missed by the general public. 

I think the last sentence is quite important. There are times when I wonder why the hell people think I'm female when I'm not even trying to present myself as one. I spotted a few T* girls who passed easily otherwise, but I know what to look for.

I agree that it is not support to suggest that someone who does not pass does.

I also agree that there are cultural and age based judgments going on that affect how we view things. Someone who lives in one region will have different assumptions than someone who lives in another - this doesn't really help the OP in those threads. On the other hand, someone who is a different age may have a different judgment, and this really MAY help. I think it is common for people to be able to pass among one age group and NOT among another.

Last, I agree that these threads are misleading - even if we were to be perfectly honest and perfectly 'nice' - in giving people any sense of whether they really pass in public. This is why I don't even reply to them at all. Whether I think someone passes or not in a 2D pic on the internet bears so little resemblance to whether someone passes or not in real life, that I don't think it's either supportive or productive for me to comment. If someone posts a video and says, "I know I'm not passing, can you help see why?" or "I pass 50/50, here is when I often don't, what can I change?", then I might have something useful to say about it.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on June 30, 2011, 04:44:36 PM
I think we can all see who passes and who doesn't pass but we want to be politically correct and not upset the forum police!

Totally agree.

I've made this point myself at times. I think people just want to be unequivocally supportive and not offer any critical advice. I remember back in January when I started posting my videos, the best advice I got was from Cyndi who basically said I looked good, but my voice was andro and needed a little more work. So I did work on it. One of the few times I was read back then was when I spoke.

Anyway, my major problem with that thread is that a photo does not tell the whole story. Video does a much better job of giving us, not just voice, but presentation. By that I mean, does the person move and express herself like a woman? That can be important too.

Quote from: Rabbit on June 30, 2011, 04:51:39 PM
People who post honest thoughts are often attacked on this forum. You claim to want the truth... but even in that very thread, you attacked the person saying 25 percent of the people posting didn't pass (and probably requiring some FFS) as having "some pretty biased philosophies of what a beautiful woman is".

I was responding to a person saying that everyone should get FFS. That's a rather big difference than giving good solid directions on passing, etc etc. Even her name meant nose surgery.

Not everyone can afford FFS. Her views were "everyone who wants to pass should have it."

That is an entirely different topic than what I suggested here.

Quote from: Annah on June 30, 2011, 04:59:46 PM
Not everyone can afford FFS. Her views were "everyone who wants to pass should have it."

not to mention that not everyone needs it...

This is one reason I have never posted in these "do I pass" threads.

Its highly prejudice, its like a drug addict asking another "do you think I have a problem with drugs"

I have posted some pics on another forum very early on in my transition, I recieved nothing but compliments and words of encouragement to go full time. I was nowhere near ready to go full time (still am not) but if I based going full time or even part time on what everyone thought, I'm sure I wouldn't of done so well accumulating female back then.

I have recieved so much good advice and support from Susan's and another forum but I still have a hard time taking advice from other people going through the same same fears and struggles as me. I have found out as my transition keeps moving forward many of things said to me or what I may have read are very true. I tend to think "well she's trans also so she's just saying that to help me cope better". thats not necessarily true.

As for passing! No one will ever pass to anyone that knew them before or knows there birth gender. Yes, they may be excepting but at best they will always see a hint of "him".

Want to know if you pass? just tell someone your (very) male name and then listen while they still ask if your the childs mother  :o. I also have even been asked how to spell it, (male name)I don't think a first grader could spell it wrong!  :D

I believe there are people that use face recognition to gender people or remember them better. I also believe people like this are rare, most people couldn't even say what looks different about a freind that just shaved his mustache he had for over ten years.

Shelly

The reason why i disagreed with Rhino because her post made the appearance where FFS can fix anything...which is just as bad thinking as telling every single person you pass.

The simple truth is that FFS can help one pass but it is not the magic pill. There are so many attributes to a person that needs to be considered when "passing." FFS does not fix all those attributes.

I personally knew of a girl who spent 25K on FFS, 14K on her butt and hips, 4K on voice surgery, 7K on Breast Augmentation, 20K on SRS and after all of that, she was still getting clocked. Well, in her pictures she looked perfect however, in real life I could see why she had a harder time passing; while she accounted for all the physical features she did not take any importance in the other features that makes us female.

So, FFS is not the end all be all and when someone suggests it is, I will naturally disagree with them.

To me alot of this has to do with the viewpoint of the person-are they emotional or rational? Someone that is rational will appreciate and welcome the truth no matter what form it takes. They will be able to look beyond the comments and take it for what it is worth. Someone who is emotional will NOT appreciate the truth if they do not pass. Why? Because when you interject reality into an emotional situation the response is never positive and your opinion will not be appreciated. When someone is emotional you have to respond with emotion to get a favorable response. It isn't always easy to tell the difference is it?
I'm with some of the others-I don't respond if I can't tell what the poster wants to hear.

Annah, your face looks like a girl I work with-you could be her sister or cousin.

I am one of those who will need FFS eventually if I want to pass-in my own opinion. I look like my mother with the brows from hell. I have to admit they look better since I started plucking them. I studied martial arts for several years and have major cutting/scarring to the brows which even looks odd on a guy. I think that now I am pleased with the result. I pluck everything from the line upward from my iris outward to the end of the browline which eliminates the scar lines from the brow. It doesn't get rid of the brow but gives some relief from the darkness I get if I do not pluck them. I haven't yet started drawing my brows as others do so for now-I am satisfied. As for me, give me the truth.

Randi

I call it the "lie to me" thread, that may seem a bit harsh, but that's the way it's gone. So I normally just stay out of it unless I happen to catch someone that I can confidently say passes.

I 100% agree with the sentiment that lying to them does no good, and can potentially put them in a harmful situation. Not necessarily physically harmful, although that is a possibility; but emotionally and mentally damaging. It's not fair to the person who is asking for advice.

"I'm going to go out today in a miniskirt, I know I'll be fine because the girl's on Susan's said I pass!"

I've had friends who do not pass, built like a linebacker. And people have gone as far to chase them out of public bathrooms and harass them until they leave the area.

This is not something anyone should have to endure, and lying to someone, even if you mean well, can put them in a potentially harmful and dangerous situation.

There have been allot of good points made during this thread, many things I have been thinking about for quite awhile

Gals that post themselves on the "Do I Pass" thread are usually looking for an honest critique and advise on how they may better pass... Giving them a false pass is not only rudely patronizing, but it also runs the risk of possibly damaging the person's psyche from a bad experience and/or worse, put them at risk of physical danger

If you see a reason someone would not pass you should tell them

It is possible to give good advise without being rude, just as it is possible to disagree without being confrontational

Villanizing someone for giving an honest opinion helps no-one... Make sure you understand what they are saying and why

And if you don't blow enough wind up my skirt should I post a pic.... I'll have your heads  :laugh:

*Sorry, had to throw one dinger in there to lighten things up*

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on June 30, 2011, 04:44:36 PM
I think we can all see who passes and who doesn't pass but we want to be politically correct and not upset the forum police!

As long as it doesn't fall into the personal attack category, you're perfectly free to be honest here.

Quote from: Forum Admin on June 30, 2011, 06:23:52 PM
As long as it doesn't fall into the personal attack category, you're perfectly free to be honest here.

I agree. I give people honest opinions all the time, including the occasional "You don't quite pass hon" post. I never lie to make someone feel better. I choose my words carefully though. Honest doesn't have to be blunt or hurtful.

I dont look at all the posts on those threads but when I do look I try my best to be honest and offer a good evaluation.

I have never just made a sweet reply to make someone feel good. If I have a particularly harsh evaluation I contact the personal privatly via the PM system and tell them privatly.

Yes I have seen some cases where others have blown smoke up a posters ass but for the most part I have seen good advice.

People put to much stock in other peoples opinions of their apperance when in truth they need to accept that they don't pass at all, because why would a girl/woman need to pass as female in the first place?

Anna, I'm not going to say anything negative toward you (and I haven't read what you posted on the other thread, I assume it's about me) because I think you truly misunderstood what I read, or even worse, I may have typed something in a very confusing way!

What I meant was that in 25% of MTF cases (I've studied these cases for many years, both MTF cases and plastic surgery cases in general) and I will tell you outright that 50%+ of the men and boys out there do not need FFS, and when it comes to the face, that same percentage usually doesn't even need hormones. Look at Justin Bieber, plenty of pictures have been edited of him where people have put a wig on him, and without changing a single feature, he passes as a girl (and a very hot girl) entirely, without question. These same "good genetics" are given to the majority of young boys out there, I've studied adolescent faces very passionately, and adult faces as an extent of that. Many young boys are twins of Justin Bieber quite normally, and in later years, most men look just slightly more masculine than that. It's not a new thing, craniofacial studies of skeletal remains over thousands of years prove this same time of common unisex look.

However, the next percentage is that 25% of men beyond that have minor traits that cause them to look more toward truly male (believe it or not, computer analysis studies has proven that the most "common face" for men and women is actually a naturally unisex face, and that less people than not look like "truly boys or girls.") and by "more toward either sex", I mean that they do have subtle male traits caused by slight imbalances in hormonal growth process (yes, the more masculine a man looks, the more his hormones "flared up out of control" in his teenage years, and this is proven unhealthy, both mentally and interally). These traits consist of slightly harsh noses, a bit of a brow prominence, chin or jaw clefts or misalignments, slightly shiny or unhealthy skin, noticeable stuble, ect ect - sometimes hormones do wonders on these features, and surgery is usually not needed for these rather minor imperfections. (Or just needed in ever so slight amounts.) Many girls apply to these features as well, I'm not saying that there aren't strong-featured girls in the world, and many of them are indeed beautiful! Look at your avatar, you seem to have a round-shaped face and features that reflect that (a slightly common look among husky men) but all of your features - skin, nose, forehead, chin - seem to show of every identity of being a girl, the softness, the accessibility, the harmony, the health, the beauty. I would never guess your a boy unless your voice or something else gave it away!

However, the next percentage is the 25% of men who indeed have extremely male features, often caused by very extreme or damaging imbalances of hormones and chemicals. Diseases like Acromegaly can often be the cause of this appearance, it's a very, very underdiagnosed disease because of current discrimination against men. I do fall into this percentage myself, it's possibly why I've bothered to study faces in depth in the first place. Let's face it; we've all seen the "Andre The Giants" of the trans world and without extensive surgery, these girls will not be able to pass or lead a lifestyle outside the "drag queen" world without escaping negative comments - while it's not always the most comfortable option, some of these trans do have to settle with more of a "drag queen" identity; the only reason I say this is because medical science, with many types of surgery, is not always up to stuff. Not everything is possible, though many things are, and all I meant by "everyone should have it if they want it" is that "the government should pay for this." Same about hormones. It's a choice that some people do require for their confidence or to pass as the softer, accessible female they want to be - even father than that, I believe it should be cheap. The end idea in my mind is that I am a realist and I've studied psychology as extensively as I can to at least form my own beliefs, and I believe that an extremely masculine man cannot pass in the eyes of the public without Hormones and/or Surgery and/or Being Reliant On A Daily Therapist To Hug And Wash Every Insult Away. (Which is just as expensive as getting Hormones or Surgery in the first place.)

I'm simply explaining this because I believe a goal of almost everyone here is to pass without having daily hateful comments. I could go out and dress like a girl right now, but I've tried it before, and, because I look so extremely masculine, I'll have teenagers and even young adults shout everywhere I go "Look at that ogre dressing like a woman!". It's easy to say that we are all beautiful because we're brave enough to be ourselves and face the world, but that's not going to stop everyone else from saying things if we do attract attention in our workplace or public life. Quite frankly an astounding number of young boys and even older men pass perfectly or almost perfectly without having been on hormones or having got FFS at all. That's the reality that, believe me, I am so extremely jealous of - I do also hate when people (professional doctors, other trans) downplay the severity my features because to me, that says I must have BDD.

Another concept is that of confidence - many of us here, including myself, only want to have the features that give us confidence. I'm the type of person where if I'm at least comfortable and confident with my features, I would not care if they were a "little masculine". But again, I am in the most masculine of the masculine category, I just cannot pass or even start my Real Life. I feel like it's impossible for me, I feel like I look like a circus freak or some sort of bad comedy sketch. This is what I feel like:

I am an Ugly Person (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYLc7hcinNQ#)

Only, to be honest, I look 10x more "masculine" than that actor. To be honest, in terms of what's relative and an acceptable appearance to many trans, this actor passes somewhat well. I'd be lying if I said most of the middle aged gals around me in the real world don't have imperfections like weight around the neck and chin, slightly large foreheads, bald hairlines ect ect. I certainly wish I looked at least even more in the direction of this sketch actor, and trust me, this sketch enrages me! It hurt my feelings so much!

I truly don't think any thread will be good enough to function as a real life test on passability. In fact the only way to truly tell if someones face/head is passable. The 3D technology where we could examine the head in rotation would be just a tool, but it is too expensive to obtain and too expensive to create an image one can post, there is just not enough technology out there yet. So as for most of us we can look pretty passable from the head on view, when we walk around the image and profile emerges then masculinity usually is evident. So you look this or you look that, will not truly work, for now it just is a feel good thread that's all.


I suppose the truer opinion would need to encompass head on view, profile view and perspective view of the side of face view.

Good thread of total honesty, shame some people seem to not appreciate that. oh well. But yeah I totally agree and it's why I stopped going into such threads. When you do it's just a case of "BS.......BS......yeah maybe.....BS....BS.....BS.....oh wow you're right pretty....BS......BS.....BS". It's kind of like a "what do you think of my highly unrealistic best angle that I took a hundred photos to find thread".. I love honesty but I know people don't always wanna hear it such threads, and I'm not going to take the time to sift those that don't.
And so true about the if you want real evaluation go into a food court of teenage girls, I've said it before myself... the general public have nothing to lose in being completely honest with you, whether it's constructive or not it's still the same truth. The point is more important than the delivery, if you get hung up on the delivery then you're just deluding yourself of the point.
If you are posting in threads like that then you surely deep down know people are most likely going to smear you in butter... so that thread could of been titled better but such is life! "smear me in butter thread". Catchy! ^__^

Quote from: Muffin on June 30, 2011, 09:52:51 PM
if you want real evaluation go into a food court of teenage girls

Or the women's restroom in the food court of teenage girls! :laugh:

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on June 30, 2011, 09:55:38 PM
Or the women's restroom in the food court of teenage girls! :laugh:

So true, girls talk to each other in the bathroom and the first time that happened I was like (on the inside) "aarhhhhhh!".. followed by the shortest most nervous reply. The good ol' days? >_<

Quote from: inna on June 30, 2011, 09:07:50 PM
I truly don't think any thread will be good enough to function as a real life test on passability. In fact the only way to truly tell if someones face/head is passable. The 3D technology where we could examine the head in rotation would be just a tool, but it is too expensive to obtain and too expensive to create an image one can post, there is just not enough technology out there yet. So as for most of us we can look pretty passable from the head on view, when we walk around the image and profile emerges then masculinity usually is evident. So you look this or you look that, will not truly work, for now it just is a feel good thread that's all.


I suppose the truer opinion would need to encompass head on view, profile view and perspective view of the side of face view.

absolutely!

There is so much more than 2d pics to see if a girl passes. For me, i have to see someone's video to get an idea. I have to hear them talk. I have to see their body language and gestures. Pics just don't cut it for me.

I doubt any of us can be "pretty" women. We all have had too much of the wrong hormones when we were young, our bones, features, skin are all wrong. I know I'm frustrated. I've always been a girl since early childhood but stuck in this ugly male body with too much facial & body hair, etc.... Now in my mid 50's, passable for a short period of time til all this hair grows back & just kills me, reality sets in, etc.. On & off HRT so many times however I just never felt comfortable living full time with too much facial/body hair that would just not go away.

I hope all younger real women do not delay in HRT. Do not delay if you are a woman at heart, stop the wrong hormones as soon as you can, be as pretty a woman as you can. Be proud of yourself even if you are not a beauty/model. Enjor being a pretty woman as best you can, take care of your body/mind improve each day, become prettier each day like a young girl developing. It takes years for the changes to occur.

Wish I had followed through when I was in Junior High School, always knew then I was a girl but there was just no way to really change long ago unlike today.

My best to all you girlfriends, have fun, enjoy being yourself


 

Quote from: Francis Ann Burgett on June 30, 2011, 10:33:51 PM
I doubt any of us can be "pretty" women.

why the absolute? I've seen plenty of really attractive women who have transitioned. :S
Not to mention those that pass so well you can't even tell! For all you know there could be more of those that appear stealth than those that stand out.

I personally am jealous of all the gals on this forum (and I've counted over 50 just by casual browsing) and all the people in my real world life (2,000) who can pass 100%, no matter what they have done. Let's all be honest; the majority of people on here pass so well that they could be fashion models, or at least could hold other media careers because of equally beautiful looks. People who look so extraordinarily like a real girl that you have to accuse them of lying about being trans! We also have to admit that, a little bit less often (or because these folks aren't fond of posting pics), some folks just do not pass. We love them equally and treat them no differently here (I wouldn't at least), but sometimes we do know what the outside world sees in that person; it makes me personally feel so much empathy for them, and makes me hope that in their heart's heart, they have found the keys of happiness that work for them (these keys are not the same for everyone.)

I guess in my heart of hearts, I aspire to be somewhat near a very beautiful girl because I want people to judge me automatically, where I don't literally scare little children and all of my "potential" friends and coworkers away (it happens every day with me.) I want people to see me as a girl. I don't want to have to be that "strong resilient proactive gal who scares off all the men like a overprotective-of-myself lesbian because I'm constantly trying to be proud of my personality while I look like Shrek." It stems partially from my desire to be the cute, cuddly, soft gal who can be in the arms of a straight (acting) man. I know the psychology of gay men extensively and I can tell you right now that not even a gay man or an experimental man will treat a masculine man like a girl unless he truly looks like one to at least some extent (even if it's just softer features). The psychology of looks and sexual attraction is just stronger than what our personalities can accomplish in a sexual relationship (especially in a one night stand!) In the words of Lady Gaga's new song The Queen, "I can [want to] be the Queen that's inside of me."

Though to be honest, right now, I just don't feel like a Queen. I don't even feel like a King. I feel like a loser. :[

But then again, I know what it feels like to have lived in transition full time. I used to be extremely attractive and very passable (after a FFS nasal procedure), and that's when I lived life as a female. I was happy, I discovered the dramas and sexual lives of a teenage girl, and everyone loved me beyond the normal drama that a normal teenage girl was supposed to face. Then a car accident disfigured my face and it had to be rebuilt with grafts, and then I developed Androgen Oversensitivity Syndrome/potential Acromegaly, where family and health prevented me from getting on Anti-Androgens and Estrogen, and because of the nature of my hormonal disease, my craniofacial skeleton has grown dramatically. I know what this process feels like and I know it makes me happy to look beautiful, no doubt in my mind because I've already been there. I'm walking proof of every single one of my theories.

However, I'm probably one of the only transsexuals who've been through FSS, discovered happiness, then developed diseases on top of severe craniofacial injuries from a car wreck, and have had to deal with the post-traumatic effects of both my currently deformed appearance (male or female) and the identity/age group (female, younger than 30). No matter how extreme of subcultures you dive into (medical transsexualism) there will always be an even more extreme individual and well....my process has been pretty darn different than most, I must say!

Quote from: Muffin on June 30, 2011, 09:52:51 PM
And so true about the if you want real evaluation go into a food court of teenage girls...

I see your mall food court, and raise you to the local A & F store on a slow weekday. If you walk thru A & F (my friends and I call it the "mtf valley of death") and don't get read... you're passing honey!
;D  :D

Claire's is another good one ;).

"Passing" doesn't involve looking like a model... It is being

Quote from: JennX on June 30, 2011, 10:47:11 PM
I see your mall food court, and raise you to the local A & F store on a slow weekday. If you walk thru A & F (my friends and I call it the "mtf valley of death") and don't get read... you're passing honey!
;D  :D

Claire's is another good one ;).

i work right next to A & F ...that is also a good testing ground lol

Another good spot is to work where I work. I work in the juniors (teenage girl) section of JC Penney. That's a proven ground for ya!

Quote from: Annah on June 30, 2011, 02:18:23 PM
I can certainly see the importance of the "Do I pass" thread and I think it is a very important thread to have. I know when I was transitioning, I would def want to post in there to get honest feedback.

However, I have noticed somewhat of a trend in the thread. I didn't know if I was the only one; but there seems to be some people who respond "oh you def pass" when it is clearly evident that the person posting those pics would not.

Now, don't get me wrong or misunderstand me. The great vast majority of all the girls posting in there will pass one day. I can def see their features become more feminine when undergoing hrt, etc etc but I would assume when you tell a girl "oh you def pass" would be damaging if they currently do not. To me, this could be a very bad thing because the girl can become very confident in their ability to pass (confidence is great) but what happens when they go out in the world and gets clocked or has a bad experience? It could really effect them in a negative way.

With that said, No one should ever say "no you don't pass" without offering any suggestions to help them approve their appearance, clothing, etc etc. As I came to understand that thread, people with experience in living real life experience or who has done things better their reflections could pass their words of wisdom down to other girls who are just starting the process.

There are some girls who do offer honest feedback on what to do to help the girl out. I have seen excellent suggestions that would help the girls out but mostly this thread i am creating is about those who pretty much pastes a copied "oh you pass" after every pic laid down.

To me, telling a girl "you pass" when they clearly are not there yet is just as damaging as telling a girl "you don't pass" without offering suggestions to better their look.

I don't know....maybe it's just me but if I was in the beginnings of transition, I would feel a little "belittled" if someone told me I passed without any explanations when I knew down in my heart I had a long ways to go.

One of my best friends were very honest with me when I was transitioning. She would say "you are getting there! But you may wanna trim those eyebrows a bit" or "sweety, you just started HRT, you need to give yourself some more time before features change." Those were very critical comments to me. One friend was even honest to me and told me that my hair would clock me everytime. She gave me suggestions and after a hair transplant in the forehead region I became more confident and I tryly appreciated her honesty. If you look at the thread that has our before pics...look up mine. You'll see exactly what I am talking about.

When someone comes to me and asks if they pass I always tell them that I look at these features to determine if someone can blend in.

1. Their voice. You can be the most beautiful woman in the world but if your voice is masculine, no amounts of FFS or makeup or HRT will help.
2. Hair. Your hairline is very important. If you have a very receding hairline (like I did), that will get you clocked pretty easily too.

Fortunately, both of these steps can be easily fixed. Voice can be fixed if practiced. And your hair can be fixed through transplants and if you cannot afford that,  you can find an awesome inexpensive wig that looks extremely lifelike. (When it comes to wigs, there is a good inexpensive wig and there is the expensive wig that really looks fake..it just takes a lot of research and what hair style conforms to your face better).

But yea, for the most part. If someone really looks like they may not pass to well, don't just say "oh you pass!" Be honest! But with that honest show respect and offer suggestions that would help her!

I agree with you 110%! patronizing someone does no good.  as bad as it may seem, the truth, even if brutal, is best

Quote from: Annah on June 30, 2011, 11:24:47 PM
i work right next to A & F ...that is also a good testing ground lol

Another good spot is to work where I work. I work in the juniors (teenage girl) section of JC Penney. That's a proven ground for ya!

Yep. Teenage girls are the litmus test for many. Especially where they congregate in groups.

The first time I was able to go in to A & F (full femme mode with my two friends along checking to see if anyone read me), and not only tried on, but then bought a super kewt denim mini... and was never looked at twice... well lets just say it was a good day and a great feeling. Really satisfying to say the least. The girl at the fitting room even complimented my butt, and I was like... WOW... uh, thanks.
:D ;D

People...please realise It's not a test! And you don't get marks

why on earth would any woman need to pass some sort of female test?

Quote from: RhinoP on June 30, 2011, 10:44:56 PM
I personally am jealous of all the gals on this forum (and I've counted over 50 just by casual browsing) and all the people in my real world life (2,000) who can pass 100%, no matter what they have done. Let's all be honest; the majority of people on here pass so well that they could be fashion models, or at least could hold other media careers because of equally beautiful looks. People who look so extraordinarily like a real girl that you have to accuse them of lying about being trans! We also have to admit that, a little bit less often (or because these folks aren't fond of posting pics), some folks just do not pass. We love them equally and treat them no differently here (I wouldn't at least), but sometimes we do know what the outside world sees in that person; it makes me personally feel so much empathy for them, and makes me hope that in their heart's heart, they have found the keys of happiness that work for them (these keys are not the same for everyone.)

I guess in my heart of hearts, I aspire to be somewhat near a very beautiful girl because I want people to judge me automatically, where I don't literally scare little children and all of my "potential" friends and coworkers away (it happens every day with me.) I want people to see me as a girl. I don't want to have to be that "strong resilient proactive gal who scares off all the men like a overprotective-of-myself lesbian because I'm constantly trying to be proud of my personality while I look like Shrek." It stems partially from my desire to be the cute, cuddly, soft gal who can be in the arms of a straight (acting) man. I know the psychology of gay men extensively and I can tell you right now that not even a gay man or an experimental man will treat a masculine man like a girl unless he truly looks like one to at least some extent (even if it's just softer features). The psychology of looks and sexual attraction is just stronger than what our personalities can accomplish in a sexual relationship (especially in a one night stand!) In the words of Lady Gaga's new song The Queen, "I can [want to] be the Queen that's inside of me."

Though to be honest, right now, I just don't feel like a Queen. I don't even feel like a King. I feel like a loser. :[

But then again, I know what it feels like to have lived in transition full time. I used to be extremely attractive and very passable (after a FFS nasal procedure), and that's when I lived life as a female. I was happy, I discovered the dramas and sexual lives of a teenage girl, and everyone loved me beyond the normal drama that a normal teenage girl was supposed to face. Then a car accident disfigured my face and it had to be rebuilt with grafts, and then I developed Androgen Oversensitivity Syndrome/potential Acromegaly, where family and health prevented me from getting on Anti-Androgens and Estrogen, and because of the nature of my hormonal disease, my craniofacial skeleton has grown dramatically. I know what this process feels like and I know it makes me happy to look beautiful, no doubt in my mind because I've already been there. I'm walking proof of every single one of my theories.

However, I'm probably one of the only transsexuals who've been through FSS, discovered happiness, then developed diseases on top of severe craniofacial injuries from a car wreck, and have had to deal with the post-traumatic effects of both my currently deformed appearance (male or female) and the identity/age group (female, younger than 30). No matter how extreme of subcultures you dive into (medical transsexualism) there will always be an even more extreme individual and well....my process has been pretty darn different than most, I must say!

you seem to be hung up a bit on fashion models.....facial appearance is only a fraction of what it takes to pass

Quote from: Gravity's Child on July 01, 2011, 12:06:32 AM
People...please realise It's not a test! And you don't get marks

why on earth would any woman need to pass some sort of female test?

why? because if she isnt beyond a doubt female, in the eyes of the rest of society, she could be discriminated against, harassed, raped, assaulted, or even killed. Time to face the harsh reality.  If you cant fix it, then work around it.

Quote from: JennX on July 01, 2011, 12:05:48 AM
Yep. Teenage girls are the litmus test for many. Especially where they congregate in groups.

The first time I was able to go in to A & F (full femme mode with my two friends along checking to see if anyone read me), and not only tried on, but then bought a super kewt denim mini... and was never looked at twice... well lets just say it was a good day and a great feeling. Really satisfying to say the least. The girl at the fitting room even complimented my butt, and I was like... WOW... uh, thanks.
:D ;D

does it turn the blue litmus red or the red litmus blue? lol :)

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on July 01, 2011, 12:15:11 AM
does it turn the blue litmus red or the red litmus blue? lol :)

Periwinkle blue... with sparkles.  ;D  ;)

Quote from: Gravity's Child on July 01, 2011, 12:06:32 AM
People...please realise It's not a test! And you don't get marks

why on earth would any woman need to pass some sort of female test?

because not everyone is understanding or sympathetic to trans people. It's not a perfect world so, yes, some people do find passing as a female is crucial to blend in to society where they are less understanding or even violent. The real world is less accommodating than a trans support site.

Quote from: Elijah on July 01, 2011, 12:15:00 AM
why? because if she isnt beyond a doubt female, in the eyes of the rest of society, she could be discriminated against, harassed, raped, assaulted, or even killed. Time to face the harsh reality.  If you cant fix it, then work around it.

exactly

Seriously, if you think it's a test you're doing it wrong and at some level you expect to fail so when you do it ends up turning your day upside down and then you don't leave the house for a week. I see some utter mingers when i walk through town, and i could guarantee that none of them have any trans history and no one questions their femininity (yeah they might be called ugly but that's a whole different kettle of fish), so why does apperance become so important for women of transexual history?

Apperance is about 30% of the overall package and i'm incliding voice in that, you could be stunningly beautiful but if deep down you still worry that people will see you as a man in a dress then that is what they will see. Attitude is everytingng

Appearance is important for another reason. While is not against any law, police men can be very unpleasant if they want to be. I explained my true reasons to be dressed normal/female when stopped for a minor reason however these type men are kind of mean spirited. Please look your best & be safe.

Quote from: Gravity's Child on July 01, 2011, 01:21:28 AM
Seriously, if you think it's a test you're doing it wrong and at some level you expect to fail so when you do it ends up turning your day upside down and then you don't leave the house for a week. I see some utter mingers when i walk through town, and i could guarantee that none of them have any trans history and no one questions their femininity (yeah they might be called ugly but that's a whole different kettle of fish), so why does apperance become so important for women of transexual history?

Apperance is about 30% of the overall package and i'm incliding voice in that, you could be stunningly beautiful but if deep down you still worry that people will see you as a man in a dress then that is what they will see. Attitude is everytingng

You are the only one calling it a test.

To me, passing or blending in is not a test but a way of life for me and it is something that I am part of both physically and spiritually. Me looking like a female, doing my daily activities as a female is not a test but it is me.

Your last paragraph is everything I also have been explaining about so I agree with you there. Appearance is not everything; however, it is part of one of many important assets to many transpeople.

You mention it is not a test. I agree. However, passing is a way of life for those who desire to work in environments that do not understand or appreciate transpeople.

If you can show me a society that would let transpeople be whoever they want to be without any recourse of action or any other negative responses, then the who issue of "passing" or "blending in" would not be as important.

However, at this time, the world's societies are not there yet. And even if the world's society was understanding, I will still continue to "blend in" because for me it isn't a test; rather it is who I am.

"Seriously, if you think it's a test"

the thread in question is "Do I Pass" so with that no one is saying "you have to pass", they're asking a particular question. You are more than free to look like an eyesore if that is the look you're going for. Of course if you feel unsure whether you actually can pull off a particular look and really and honesty want to know then PM me a pic or go to a food court/A&F etc. If you prefer the random chance of being covered in butter then press on to the "Do I Pass" thread. ;)

Wow so much has happened in this thread. I have a couple notes, and I will make them fast.

I agree with OP, it does no good to lie to the posters in the do I pass thread. However, it happens A LOT. And we all know it.

That just takes me to the idea of, why the heck are people arguing over it? Or arguing over what part of passing is the most important or if you can really judge, etc? The idea of THIS thread is not rather or not people can or do pass, but rather or not people are overly nice and give crappy feedback because of it. They do, it is true, people have admitted to it, we have all seen it and that's that. Hands down. There is no argument or debate here.

We all seem to agree that there is far more to passing than can be seen in a 2d picture, but that is not the point of the Do I Pass thread nor is it the point of this thread.

Rather or not most women or few women or any women could use plastic surgery is also not the point here, so let it go and move on. Who cares if you've seen the OP post something you think is stupid or goes against what they are saying right now? Who here honestly can say that they have never once posted something that later they may have thought was dumb, or no longer agreed with, or whatever? Unless you've only posted like 5 times you probably can't honestly say you've never fallen guilty to being too nice, too mean or just down right dumb every now and then. None of us are perfect, so lets stop arguing about that too.

The point of this post is that it isn't cool for people to lie in the Do I Pass thread and rather or not we've noticed. Fact is most of us have noticed, most of us seem to think it's crappy and in the long run most of us will lie one more time. The end.

Quote from: Gravity's Child on July 01, 2011, 01:21:28 AM
so why does apperance become so important for women of transexual history?

This is not and should not be limited to women of trans history. Having spent a majority of my life being raised as a woman I will tell you, cisgirls are just as effing bad about it. They are just as wrapped up and tormented by the idea of appearance as transwomen are. Men are as well, both cis and trans, and for whatever reason we all like to act like it's some unique thing that trans community handles in some crazy fashion.

It is a universal preoccupation, not a transsexual one.

Quote from: Annah on July 01, 2011, 01:35:52 AM
You are the only one calling it a test.

But y'all the ones saying "if you really want to know that you pass do x,y or z". Even the term passing has overt connotations of passing a test, and really, if you can't see that if you're worried about passing means that deep down you're worried that you don't then i can tell you all the things I've learnt the hard way to my hearts content, but it won't help you. Grasshopper must reach understanding on her own.

All this passing angst is just pointless, let it go, stop being scared that you won't and guess what, you'll end up passing the "female test" even on ugly thursdays when you have your weekly electrolisis and a bunch of sketchers take an interest in you and start up the converstaion and one notices that you have facial hair, but they still call you love and darling.

I don't need to pass as female because I am female, regardless of my outward presentation.

Quote from: Cowboi on July 01, 2011, 01:59:18 AM
This is not and should not be limited to women of trans history. Having spent a majority of my life being raised as a woman I will tell you, cisgirls are just as effing bad about it. They are just as wrapped up and tormented by the idea of appearance as transwomen are. Men are as well, both cis and trans, and for whatever reason we all like to act like it's some unique thing that trans community handles in some crazy fashion.

It is a universal preoccupation, not a transsexual one.

We are not talking about beauty, we are talking about passability.

I've avoided the "do I pass" thread entirely. Passing is far too complex and situational to look at a picture and say this person passes and this person doesn't. appearance, dress, voice and how you hold yourself all play a role, but so does context. I pass pretty well at work because all of the staff know me as Rachel and She. Patients meet me that way and maybe they assume I am a fairly "masculine" looking woman or maybe they figure I am transsexual, but they are introduced me as a woman and they treat me that way. In day to day life most people don't look twice. If you present yourself as feminine they just assume. In another context, like if co-workers are bad about names or gender markers, it can make it hard for even the most feminine looking MTF.

My point is that the prettiest trans woman out there will have trouble passing in the wrong context, and they most masculine will pass easily in the right context. Looking in a mirror or posting pictures online and asking "do I pass?" isn't a very productive use of time whether the answers are honest or not.

This whole thread and indeed the one it refers to is one reason why I am slowly withdrawing myself from this place. I agree 100% with Gravities-Child. In fact if I may I will relate a small incident which happened when she was seeing the surgeon for here SRS pre-checks.

Gravities-Child enquired about a tracheal shave. She doesn't have a big apple but it is just about there. His response was "You don't need one. Only trans people ever use that as a marker for gender. Very few other people will even notice it."

Likewise eyebrows, likewise vocal pitch, likewise height, likewise just about ANY thing you all get so darned obsessed about!

NONE OF IT MATTERS!

You are what you know yourself to be. In my case that is female. All the rest is just eye candy and window dressing.

Sure it is nice to look attractive and feminine, but it isn't obligatory and judged by your standards about 50% of the natal females that I see everyday DONT PASS either! So passing is a delusion, and obsession with a dubious and superficial standard of outward femininity.

While I have sympathy with the plight of FtM's who feel that their options for surgery are limited, on the whole, for me sex is defined by what is between your legs. Gender is different. You can be whatever gender you like but it doesn't follow that your body has to look female for your personality and identity to be of female gender.

In the final event the only people who care about whether they pass or not are transpeople. Therefore to care about passing is by definition to fail.

So to all of you who have to ask the question my answer has to be no. If you have to ask then I am afraid to say that to me you don't pass, and indeed you wont ever until you stop asking. Sorry if that seems harsh, by all means disagree with and/or ignore it, but it is my genuine and honest opinion.

Quote from: rejennyrated on July 01, 2011, 05:11:39 AM
NONE OF IT MATTERS!

You are what you know yourself to be. In my case that is female. All the rest is just eye candy and window dressing.

Sure it is nice to look attractive and feminine, but it isn't obligatory and judged by your standards about 50% of the natal females that I see everyday DONT PASS either! So passing is a delusion, and obsession with a dubious and superficial standard of outward femininity.

I agree.  How you are perceived has much more to do with how you feel and how you present yourself, than how you look.  Unless someone is obviously masculine (a ridiculously square jaw, for example) then there's a good chance that working on presentation and feeling comfortable with themselves will do a lot more than make-up or changing clothing styles.

Why do I come on a thread like this after Jenny?

I assure you it is coincidence.

Who gives a ->-bleeped-<-.

It is confidence in being you. no level of make up. boob jobs etc will make you look like a superstar. And if you are you will be picked out. Meaghan Gale was insulted (today) in Australia by a bad ID person for being ordinary.
She may be but why do we insult people anyway.

What does it matter how I look? What does it it matter how you look?

Isn't the question; Who am I?

Accept you.

Cindy, I wish I had not logged onto this post

Quote from: Cindy James on July 01, 2011, 05:25:55 AM
It is confidence in being you.

I've been called "ma'am" thrice while in guy mode, with facial hair.

No shens.

I don't think there is anything wrong with someone who is in the early stages of transition or even slightly further in to ask... let me repeat that ASK for someone else's outside opinion on a picture of them self. And it's just that a picture of their physical form or dress sense that is what they're asking to be rated so rate it! ..but that to me is beside the point... it's about people's honesty in regards to what they see in that picture. Maybe they really do think they look fabulous and passable and maybe they're the only one in a billion to think so but the important think is honesty and that is the point here. Nothing is gained by telling someone a lie in fact in this instance it can be dangerous as you all know.

Different people have different reasons for wanting to pass, different senses of what it means to pass, or don't see things in terms of passing. Can we please respect each other's differences whilst sharing our own perspectives. [This isn't aimed at any one person, just another gentle reminder not to get sidetracked by "I'm right so you're wrong!!" arguments when we could be listening more to each other's experience.]

Perception is so subjective anyway, that how I think someone else (or myself) looks is just going to be my own take on it. As a dykey-tomboy hippy, I find a lot of mainstream women's fashion and makeup a real turn-off, so I know I've got very little useful feedback to give anyone (except to say they look hot if I think they look hot - ans a lot of that is often down to their smile :)).

OK Sorry gone back to a few early posts.

But this thread seems to have been hijacked  more than a few times.

How good or bad do you look?
Look in a mirror. I do not mean that rudely!! Look at yourself. If you do not accept you, why do you expect anyone else to?

Cindy

Quote from: Cindy James on July 01, 2011, 05:55:39 AM
Look in a mirror. I do not mean that rudely!! Look at yourself. If you do not accept you, why do you expect anyone else to?

there are times when I think I look ->-bleeped-<- and I'll be all down and my parents will ask why and they'll be all like "don't be silly you look fine!", like as if to say I'm just looking to close at the mirror.. and I sometimes do and all I see is the old me or the parts that have similarities. There is a name for it, I was talking to a friend about it a few weeks ago. But anyways I think it's possible to hate yourself but for others to think you're ok, they see your good points even if you're temporarily blinded to them. Sometimes it takes a simple outside opinion to snap you out of your own over analysing destructive views. Though sometimes you may think you look ->-bleeped-<--hott in a new outfit and then someone will be like "bitch please!".. and you'll be like..... "aawww yeah I guess so". xP

The point I'm trying to make (possibly badly) is that of you have to ask the question, then at some level you all ready expect to fail...basically asking the question is seeking validation about yourself. So even if the person questioning is genuinely stunning, the fact they need to ask means that any reply is the equivilent of a piece of two by four proping up a wall and isn't a particularly healthy thing at all (even if the replies are genuine and honest).

I remember ages ago I posted a pic to see if I looked ok enough to show online friends (that didn't know)... I could see my old self in the pic and I was really unsure if others also could. I had no idea what the reply was going to be... well...that's not completely true.. I was expecting at least someone to say "looks a bit dudish". But nope it got the all clear. I was shocked and elated, it made me feel good about myself and helped evaporate my uncertainty. I then posted it on other webpages and I never got any troll action. So I feel that the thread was effective. IF I had been trolled and called a ->-bleeped-<- etc then I may of felt like I had been lied to.

Sometimes a bit of validation is good and can help you gain confidence, but if you're posting a new picture everyday/week then that speaks of insecurities. Everyone likes to be told once in a while that they look nice...it's just if it's all the time.

Affirmation is a hell of a drug :). It's good stuff (if it's pure, and not cut with affirm-me-back), but it's not nutritious enough by itself if we can't grow our own, and it's definitely habit-forming.

The days when I feel good, looking in the mirror, are not the "you look good!" ones, they're the "I like you!" ones. My idea of how good I look is so strongly influenced by my state of mind at the time, I know I need to pay more attention to my emotional outfit than my sartorial one.

I've learnt to take what i see in the mirror with a pinch of salt because I have body dismorphia issues that have sweet fa to do with being trans. some days I genuinely struggle not to see how fat i think I am...but then I have a history of anorexia so I think being 60kg is drastically overweight and could happily lose 4 or 5 kilos (despite at a concious level knowing doing so would be a very bad thing indeed)

Personally I prefer longboarding as my drug of choice as opposed to affirmation, despite all the bumps, scrapes and bruises I've collected in the last 3 months it's a lot better for me.

Quote from: Gravity's Child on July 01, 2011, 02:58:04 AM
But y'all the ones saying "if you really want to know that you pass do x,y or z". Even the term passing has overt connotations of passing a test, and really, if you can't see that if you're worried about passing means that deep down you're worried that you don't then i can tell you all the things I've learnt the hard way to my hearts content, but it won't help you. Grasshopper must reach understanding on her own.

All this passing angst is just pointless, let it go, stop being scared that you won't and guess what, you'll end up passing the "female test" even on ugly thursdays when you have your weekly electrolisis and a bunch of sketchers take an interest in you and start up the converstaion and one notices that you have facial hair, but they still call you love and darling.

I don't need to pass as female because I am female, regardless of my outward presentation.

It is easy for you to dismiss these concerns because you have the benifit of looking completely natal. Not everyone is as lucky as you.

That may be so, but I still get mis-gendered from time to time. The point is because i am comfortable with who I am and don't need external validation to know I'm female, I can shrug them off with a laugh. There are a few people here who I think are far far prettier than I will ever be who don't have my surety of self, who in a similar situation would possibly get flustered and defensive causing the person who (most likey) mis-gendered them completely inadvertantly, to question exactly why they got so upset and start putting pieces together and to probably read them as being male (which is the one thing they fear in the first place).

You say I look like a natal female, but even with that, if I was scared about being percieved as male then I would give myself away in the situations where people misgender me. To me, desperately needing validation is just as damaging (if not more so) as not being honest with someone about their outward appearance.

Quote from: Gravity's Child on July 01, 2011, 09:25:10 AM
You say I look like a natal female, but even with that, if I was scared about being percieved as male then I would give myself away in the situations where people misgender me. To me, desperately needing validation is just as damaging (if not more so) as not being honest with someone about their outward appearance.

I would probably have to concur with those sentiments...we are all obviously our own worst critics, and yeah, insecurities are a part of life.  But when one is reduced to posting pics on a forum that seeks a 2D-based validation that does not incorporate all of life's other cues, it becomes more difficult to simply function in society.

it becomes more difficult to simply function in society

I'd assume that's putting the cart before the horse, if you were functioning in society you wouldn't be asking in the first place.

in all honesty, what does it really matter if we "pass" or not?  If someone doesnt pass are they going to halt their transition and stay in the closet forever or only live as female within the confines of their own home?  Likewise, it doesnt do anygood to patronize others and give them a false sense of security.  In regards to the "do i pass" thread, take a pic and look at it.....you'll know whether or pass or not

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on July 01, 2011, 10:13:10 AM
in all honesty, what does it really matter if we "pass" or not?  If someone doesnt pass are they going to halt their transition and stay in the closet forever or only live as female within the confines of their own home?  Likewise, it doesnt do anygood to patronize others and give them a false sense of security.  In regards to the "do i pass" thread, take a pic and look at it.....you'll know whether or pass or not

Maybe it could be (for some) do I pass wearing this outfit? Or does my hair look good like this? etc etc.

Quote from: Muffin on July 01, 2011, 10:16:21 AM
Maybe it could be (for some) do I pass wearing this outfit? Or does my hair look good like this? etc etc.

I think, and this is just my personal opinion, that if such a question was asked, it's probably a good idea that maybe the particular outfit need not be worn?  From what I've seen, the biggest problem that some have with passing is what they wear.  Being female does not automatically mean we wear miniskirts, spaghetti tops, heels and tons of makeup.  when it comes to dressing, we gotta compliment and work with what we have.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on July 01, 2011, 10:13:10 AM
in all honesty, what does it really matter if we "pass" or not?  If someone doesnt pass are they going to halt their transition and stay in the closet forever or only live as female within the confines of their own home?  Likewise, it doesnt do anygood to patronize others and give them a false sense of security.  In regards to the "do i pass" thread, take a pic and look at it.....you'll know whether or pass or not

Exactely,  ....or go out in the street among everyday folk . You'll soon know whether you pass or not.

:police:

May I please interject a friendly reminder that this is a support site and different people need support in different ways.  Just because one person has no problem working from the inside out doesn't mean that everybody can do it, and passing threads are a starting point to building the outer confidence they need to start working on issues within.  The beauty of life is the breathtaking variation of the human condition, and calling people shallow or directly attacking the type of support they need is only going to hurt them, and it will hurt us all in the long run when they leave the site and can't bring their valuable perspectives to the discussion.

Do you really want to be in the echo chamber?  Because I assure you it's deafening.

Please lighten up a bit and don't forget that we're talking about people who need support.  We all need it from time to time, we need it in differing amounts, and how would you feel if you got shut down and insulted in your own time of need?

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on July 01, 2011, 10:31:11 AM
:police:

May I please interject a friendly reminder that this is a support site and different people need support in different ways.  Just because one person has no problem working from the inside out doesn't mean that everybody can do it, and passing threads are a starting point to building the outer confidence they need to start working on issues within.  The beauty of life is the breathtaking variation of the human condition, and calling people shallow or directly attacking the type of support they need is only going to hurt them, and it will hurt us all in the long run when they leave the site and can't bring their valuable perspectives to the discussion.

Do you really want to be in the echo chamber?  Because I assure you it's deafening.

Please lighten up a bit and don't forget that we're talking about people who need support.  We all need it from time to time, we need it in differing amounts, and how would you feel if you got shut down and insulted in your own time of need?

I agree with you, but at the same time we shouldn't just be politically correct which doesn't always help the individual who's going out in the big wide world who may need advise or support. When I first started transitioning my friend ripped me to pieces with her comments and it really hurt but it was good for me and she helped point out all the things that needed improvement.

maybe the "do i pass" thread needs to renamed to the "how do i look" thread because surely "passing" is not limited to just facial appearance.  Someone could be the most beautiful woman in the world....but walk like John Wayne..what then? Or, have a voice like Lemmy from Motorhead?  just a thought

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on July 01, 2011, 10:23:25 AM
I think, and this is just my personal opinion, that if such a question was asked, it's probably a good idea that maybe the particular outfit need not be worn?  From what I've seen, the biggest problem that some have with passing is what they wear.  Being female does not automatically mean we wear miniskirts, spaghetti tops, heels and tons of makeup.  when it comes to dressing, we gotta compliment and work with what we have.

yeah I totally agree.. but sometimes one may have doubts and feel an outside opinion is required. Does my bum look big in this? YES! *takes it off and wears something more flattering*.

Does my bum look big in this?

It's really unfair to blame the clothes for this problem.

It matters if you pass!!!! if you say it doesn't then thats BS.

It may not bother some (as much) because maybe their fortunate to not be misgendered much, but see what would happen if they were sirr'ed consistently. I feel many MTF's may bring this on themselves by rushing full time, I cannot imagine going full time without at least 80% hair (face) removal, but I have talked with some that say no one really notices the whiskers they are growing out before electro. Why! because no one said any thing (not going to happen!) and trans on a forum said they didn't notice. I am at that 80% hair removal, I still feel it hinders me. Thats me though!

The difference between a trans and a cis person is a trans is thinking do I pass as a female/male. It may not bother them much and sure and hell isn't stopping there transition, but in the back of there head, its always there.

A cis person never questions if they pass as there gender, they might wonder if they look good but never is there a thought hmmmmmmmmmm.......do I look like a natural male or for the MTF do I look like a natural female.

Think about this! If passing didn't matter to some of you why not just get grs and don't worry about how your dressed or facial hair or............

For me it matters that I want that thing between my legs GONE! in reality though no one knows its there. I want to live my life as it was meant to be, that is female. To do this I will have grs in the mean time I want to assimilate, present, show, pass or what ever term one may use female as best I can.

Shelly

Quote from: Just Shelly on July 01, 2011, 12:15:51 PM
Think about this! If passing didn't matter to some of you why not just get grs and don't worry about how your dressed or facial hair or............

An obvious answer to this is that for almost everyone, the guidelines require RLE before surgery, so some kind of visible move in the direction of the "target gender" is required by the medical establishment before they're willing to okay SRS/GRS. So even someone like myself with little interest in passing per se knows that there may be some things we have to do to get there, like those things that you have to do to pass a driving test that you then never do again in normal day-to-day driving :).

I think it's important to accept that for some people it doesn't feel that important, and for some it feels very, very important, and both those experiences are valid.

Quote from: Just Shelly on July 01, 2011, 12:15:51 PM
A cis person never questions if they pass as there gender, they might wonder if they look good but never is there a thought hmmmmmmmmmm.......do I look like a natural male or for the MTF do I look like a natural female.

The thing is, neither should you, peoples perception of you is really based on your perception of yourself...question your gender and others will follow you.

Finally as I don't question my gender I guess that makes me a cis female, so I'll bid you all fond farewell and I wish that everyone who questions themselves could find at least a bit of my surety in myself, because it really is that simple, but unfortunately I can't teach anyone that, it's an understanding you have to reach on your own.

I really didn't mean to come across as patronising, but trust me, when I tell you it is just as simple as letting go of the fear...while at the same time being utterly terryfing to do. I had to bounce off the road at 30mph to get here, hopefully y'all find slightly less uncomfortable ways of doing it.

Quote from: Just Shelly on July 01, 2011, 12:15:51 PM
It matters if you pass!!!! if you say it doesn't then thats BS.

It may not bother some (as much) because maybe their fortunate to not be misgendered much, but see what would happen if they were sirr'ed consistently. I feel many MTF's may bring this on themselves by rushing full time, I cannot imagine going full time without at least 80% hair (face) removal, but I have talked with some that say no one really notices the whiskers they are growing out before electro. Why! because no one said any thing (not going to happen!) and trans on a forum said they didn't notice. I am at that 80% hair removal, I still feel it hinders me. Thats me though!

The difference between a trans and a cis person is a trans is thinking do I pass as a female/male. It may not bother them much and sure and hell isn't stopping there transition, but in the back of there head, its always there.

A cis person never questions if they pass as there gender, they might wonder if they look good but never is there a thought hmmmmmmmmmm.......do I look like a natural male or for the MTF do I look like a natural female.

Think about this! If passing didn't matter to some of you why not just get grs and don't worry about how your dressed or facial hair or............

For me it matters that I want that thing between my legs GONE! in reality though no one knows its there. I want to live my life as it was meant to be, that is female. To do this I will have grs in the mean time I want to assimilate, present, show, pass or what ever term one may use female as best I can.

Shelly

that's not entirely true......the thought of wondering if I pass or not is never in the back of my head.  I've been living full time for 4 years.  In fact, I transitioned when my son was 9 years old.  He is very active in youth activities, plays baseball and football, has many friends of which all knew me before as well as the parents of his friends and I'm still friends with all the parents and still socialize on the sidelines during games and practices.  The only thing that mattered to me was my ex and the thought she'd drag me to court and I'd never see my son again.  However, I am very fortunate as my ex already knew I was trans before I told her and is very supportive.  When it comes to dressing and appearance, I dress and do what I do for me, nobody else.  I make absolutely no secrets about who I am or who I used to be.

Quote from: Padma on July 01, 2011, 12:41:15 PM
An obvious answer to this is that for almost everyone, the guidelines require RLE before surgery, so some kind of visible move in the direction of the "target gender" is required by the medical establishment before they're willing to okay SRS/GRS. So even someone like myself with little interest in passing per se knows that there may be some things we have to do to get there, like those things that you have to do to pass a driving test that you then never do again in normal day-to-day driving :).

I think it's important to accept that for some people it doesn't feel that important, and for some it feels very, very important, and both those experiences are valid.

Yes, thats why I put for some of you.

I never said I don't accept that for some passing doesn't matter.

I cannot relate with how you feel at all! I have no understanding of how you feel and I'm sure its the same for you about me.

I do want this thing gone, but I also enjoy being me physically, mentally, socially, verbaly ME, this is as big a part as grs. In saying this though I do not feel I could stay non op for more then a couple of years.

Padma, thank you for your insight even though its like asking a cat how a dog feels. Me-ow don't know ;)

Shelly

Quote from: Gravity's Child on July 01, 2011, 01:02:43 PM
The thing is, neither should you, peoples perception of you is really based on your perception of yourself...question your gender and others will follow you.

Finally as I don't question my gender I guess that makes me a cis female, so I'll bid you all fond farewell and I wish that everyone who questions themselves could find at least a bit of my surety in myself, because it really is that simple, but unfortunately I can't teach anyone that, it's an understanding you have to reach on your own.

I really didn't mean to come across as patronising, but trust me, when I tell you it is just as simple as letting go of the fear...while at the same time being utterly terryfing to do. I had to bounce off the road at 30mph to get here, hopefully y'all find slightly less uncomfortable ways of doing it.

that is the 100% truth!!!  If you want others to accept you for who you are, you have to first accept yourself for who you are.  If you are 100% comfortable and confident in your own skin, then others will be as well.  and, in reality, that's all it boils down to.

Quote from: Gravity's Child on July 01, 2011, 01:02:43 PM
The thing is, neither should you, peoples perception of you is really based on your perception of yourself...question your gender and others will follow you.

Finally as I don't question my gender I guess that makes me a cis female, so I'll bid you all fond farewell and I wish that everyone who questions themselves could find at least a bit of my surety in myself, because it really is that simple, but unfortunately I can't teach anyone that, it's an understanding you have to reach on your own.

I really didn't mean to come across as patronising, but trust me, when I tell you it is just as simple as letting go of the fear...while at the same time being utterly terryfing to do. I had to bounce off the road at 30mph to get here, hopefully y'all find slightly less uncomfortable ways of doing it.

Very good for you! I sincerely mean that.

Maybe one day I will get that far, for me I feel I will need grs, I am more binary and when I see that thing, I can't help but think I don't see to many cis woman with one. I have read about some other trans that have felt "cured" and even contemplated putting off grs. I never completely believed them, but in what you say and in how I am feeling more and more comfortable in my skin I am becoming a believer. (somewhat)! 

I don't question my gender on a minute by minute basis, there are times when I do but they are become fewer and fewer. I do still feel others are! maybe because I am not 100% secure with me. I hope that is the case and I feel I am getting to that point.

Good luck wishes with your travels in life.  :)

Shelly

All of you have provided and contributed wonderfully to this thread. I really did enjoy reading all of the wonderful viewpoints here!

For me, the word "passing" or "blending in" is def a very sensitive subject. I have seen very many different viewpoints on the subject from one end of the spectrum (you are not a girl unless you pass) to the other end of the spectrum (i have a beard post srs because gender doesn't define how I look) and then everything in between.

The bottom line I had learned in this process is that the topic of sexuality and gender is different for everyone. What may be an appropriate definition for one may not be the appropriate definition for another. The same is def true on how we present ourselves.

For me, I find passing to be an important thing in my life. While I do have a very strong sense of self confidence and self esteem along with self respect, I also have a strong desire to not only look feminine but to have my body (as best as it can) to emulate how I feel on the inside.

Also, being a Church Pastor and Professor, my desire to have my physical look to emulate my inner look is very important to me. It transcends just the realm of how I feel about myself but also how my future students and congregants will emulate around me.

In a perfect world and a perfect society (even the word "perfect society" is subjective depending on the person), the issue of passing and blending may not be as important of a subject as it is right now. If everyone on this planet could accept another regardless of gender orientation, then the importance of having to pass or blend in would not be as important (although the notion of projection of your inner self image to your outer self image will always be there).

However, this world still belittles, harass, taunt, bully and kill those who have a different view of gender identity so the issue of "passing" and "blending in" still remains and will remain until, at which time, the world can better understand us.

Quote from: Annah on July 01, 2011, 02:06:04 PM
All of you have provided and contributed wonderfully to this thread. I really did enjoy reading all of the wonderful viewpoints here!

For me, the word "passing" or "blending in" is def a very sensitive subject. I have seen very many different viewpoints on the subject from one end of the spectrum (you are not a girl unless you pass) to the other end of the spectrum (i have a beard post srs because gender doesn't define how I look) and then everything in between.

The bottom line I had learned in this process is that the topic of sexuality and gender is different for everyone. What may be an appropriate definition for one may not be the appropriate definition for another. The same is def true on how we present ourselves.

For me, I find passing to be an important thing in my life. While I do have a very strong sense of self confidence and self esteem along with self respect, I also have a strong desire to not only look feminine but to have my body (as best as it can) to emulate how I feel on the inside.

Also, being a Church Pastor and Professor, my desire to have my physical look to emulate my inner look is very important to me. It transcends just the realm of how I feel about myself but also how my future students and congregants will emulate around me.

In a perfect world and a perfect society (even the word "perfect society" is subjective depending on the person), the issue of passing and blending may not be as important of a subject as it is right now. If everyone on this planet could accept another regardless of gender orientation, then the importance of having to pass or blend in would not be as important (although the notion of projection of your inner self image to your outer self image will always be there).

However, this world still belittles, harass, taunt, bully and kill those who have a different view of gender identity so the issue of "passing" and "blending in" still remains and will remain until, at which time, the world can better understand us.

very good! in order for the world to better understand us, we must first educate the world  :)

Quotevery good! in order for the world to better understand us, we must first educate the world 

...And, for the world to accept us, we need to blend into the world to dispel the extreme image that is portrayed and held by those unfamiliar with us.

Quote from: Just Shelly on July 01, 2011, 01:12:38 PM
Yes, thats why I put for some of you.

I never said I don't accept that for some passing doesn't matter.

I cannot relate with how you feel at all! I have no understanding of how you feel and I'm sure its the same for you about me.

I do want this thing gone, but I also enjoy being me physically, mentally, socially, verbaly ME, this is as big a part as grs. In saying this though I do not feel I could stay non op for more then a couple of years.

Padma, thank you for your insight even though its like asking a cat how a dog feels. Me-ow don't know ;)

Shelly

I wasn't directing what I wrote at you in particular, just pointing out (again) that it's okay for a bunch of trans folk from all over the planet to not all feel exactly the same way about this, without feeling threatened by each other.

And you and I, we're not that different :). It's just that there are millions of different kinds of woman to be, and the kind I am is very female, but not very feminine (according to most people's scale of "visible" femininity, anyway). I want very much for my body to reflect my gender, but that's about anatomy, it's where my homesickness lies. I just want to pass as me. The women I've always felt most kinship with have generally turned out to be bi or gay, and are also more ambiguous in their gender characteristics. So ourselves may be rather different, but you and I both want to be ourselves :).

I prefer the terms "being read correctly" or "being read as...." to "passing." Your presentation is your gender expression, not your gender. Being read is how other people are perceiving you. You can make presentation choices that influence how you will be read, but there are some aspects of presentation that we can not choose (e.g., your height). It would be more accurate to ask, "How would you read me?" or "How do you think others will read me?" rather than "Do I pass?"

Otherwise, forgive me for intruding further into the MTF thread on this, but as an FTM, a lot of the comments here that "it's really just about how you see yourself" or "who cares how you are read" strike me as what some people call, "passing privilege" - people taking for granted being read correctly, because they typically are & not having empathy for those who do not (and care about it). If you routinely are perceived as you would like and are not misgendered - even if this was not always the case for you, then please consider that your perspective on how other people should act and whether they should care about how they are read is influenced by your own privilege.

It is human nature that leads us to take more credit for the things we have control over than the things we do not, and we then try to attribute our "success" to things we have done and our failures to bad chance or luck or other people's actions. (And we do the opposite for other people).  Yes, inner confidence is important and how you feel about your own identity does affect how people perceive you. Being insecure or anxious or unsure about whether you are sufficiently male/female seeming can cripple efforts to be read as you wish. However, it is only human nature that people who are read correctly come to believe that it is the things they have done (or are doing) that allow this to happen for them, and they tend to discount the natal advantages they have had. Likewise, they can be unsympathetic to the natal disadvantages others have, and believe that other people could get what they wanted if only they tried harder or had a better attitude. Please try to be empathetic to others who may not share your privilege, and please do not 'blame' their attitude or confidence for how other people perceive them.

Kia Ora Annah,

::) Interesting topic BTW.......................

::) Slightly off topic but not by much....Do I pass[blend in] or am I just "acceptable" ?

::) Sadly it's a fact there are some trans-people who will always be identified as trans, no matter what surgeries or amount of HRT they might have to correct their birth sex characteristics...

No doubt there are some who live in an environment/community where the majority of cisgender people are pretty laidback and "accepting" of diversity....So even though they don't "blend in" in a physical sense,  their somewhat androgynous appearance[dress sense, long hair make-up, etc ] is "accepted" and they are given the honouree status of "female" within that particular cisgender community...Outside this community well that could be another story...

However, even though we like to "believe" we do....I believe no one "passes" 100% all of the time...and in a lot of cases because we don't "greatly" challenge society's concept of gender, we are given the "benefit of the doubt"...

If a cisgender person pays attention to detail "anatomy" they will notice the tale, tale signs of the former birth sex of some, for example, a combination of the following = Height, hands & feet size, arm lengths, shoulder width, etc...There are a number of things that subconsciously a cisgender person will pick up on and if these things aren't poking too much outside their socially constructed "gender identity box" they will be dismissed, hence given the "benefit of the doubt"...

Oooopsss sorry for being slightly off topic.....   

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Padma on July 01, 2011, 02:23:32 PM
I wasn't directing what I wrote at you in particular, just pointing out (again) that it's okay for a bunch of trans folk from all over the planet to not all feel exactly the same way about this, without feeling threatened by each other.

Wait we are allowed to not ALL feel the same way? I am outraged by this accusation :P

Quote from: rejennyrated on July 01, 2011, 05:11:39 AM
Gravities-Child enquired about a tracheal shave. She doesn't have a big apple but it is just about there. His response was "You don't need one. Only trans people ever use that as a marker for gender. Very few other people will even notice it."

How does he know? For real, I mean just because he is a surgeon doesn't mean he's right about what people notice and what they don't notice. The only thing that my wife used to get pegged on (when she was on hormones) were her hands and her adams apple. Even on many occasions/days where I knew she felt perfectly happy with how she looked and even I thought she was doing great and seemed all bubbly and thrilled about herself and her femininity.

I cannot tell you the number of times people meet my wife and weeks later it comes up that she happens to be trans (typically because the people I'm talking with know I am trans so it's natural for them to find out about her too), first thing out of their mouths are comments like, "Well I thought something was off... she's so pretty, but (and now insert 'her hands' or 'her adams apple')"

I'm not intending to personally attack or anything, just the first thing I thought when I read that particular line was annoyance with one of those challenging "Say it to my face" moments lol.

This thread has gotten a bit off topic. This was a discussion about being truthful in the "do I pass" thread. Somehow this got evolved to a debate on whether passing is necessary and how to pass.

Whether or not someone wants to "pass" is their business.
Whether or not someone wants to post pictures and get feedback is their business.
No one should really judge a person if what they care about is "passing".

Yes they're posting on a public forum, if you don't approve of the idea of "passing" then it's simply better to not get involved on the topic. If you feel someone is wrong for wanting to pass, then you should keep it to yourself, because that's their own business.

Can we get back on topic now?

Quote from: Cowboi on July 01, 2011, 03:45:49 PM
Wait we are allowed to not ALL feel the same way? I am outraged by this accusation :P

I'm outraged at your outrage! ;D

It is hard to sit with the tension between unity and diversity - there's something about our individual experiences that draws us strongly together on this forum, and yet we're all so different too. We humans are often both afraid of being alone, and afraid of losing our identity to the group (and being "different from the norm" has shown many of us the darker side of both those). But they're both optional.

I find it interesting that on a support forum with many people in similar situations, there are still so many biased views and controversy. I guess that means its simple to state that everyone is different, whether you have something in common or not. So, while there is the freedom to point out your view on a subject, it doesn't mean everyone will agree or change their view and there will never be one exact way people reply to posters.

Quote from: Samantharz on July 01, 2011, 03:55:35 PM
This thread has gotten a bit off topic. This was a discussion about being truthful in the "do I pass" thread. Somehow this got evolved to a debate on whether passing is necessary and how to pass.

You are so much nicer than I am. I made this same point in a more harshly worded post last night, which got completely ignored.

It feels so silly to me being in this convo because I totally agree with the idea that passing and attitude have a lot to do with one another, but I'm also trying to stick to the idea that this post is not actually about those two things or the idea of rather or not passing=/=bad. All of the good roller coaster threads become this strange jumble of off topic things around here. Sometimes I like it, but other times it wears on the nerves that we can't talk about even one thing serious and stay on topic lol.

Being a transvestite, cross dresser, or drag queen is the identity where a man dresses in drag or female clothing, but is "proud" of his masculine features and has no desire to change them. A transsexual or transgender is a person who wants to entirely blend in with a female culture WITHOUT being suspected or insulted. That is simply the definition of it. There are facial features that are proven to evoke a masculine or female response in a viewer (these studies have been conducted at world renowned universities), and most transgenders want their masculine features to, if they have them, be improved. Sexual looks also do play a part; even if a trans has relatively female features, if the trans is still considered very odd or ugly looking in a female role or to normal society (obese, misaligned features, skin problems, ect ect), they often want improvements to these sometimes negative features or health problems as well. Trans are people who want to blend positively into a society like a normal attractive girl would, and this includes dating and social roles. A drag queen is someone who wants to "be proud" of masculine features, to flaunt those masculine features while dressing like a woman. A drag queen is the "shock value" version of a transgender. Most of us here do not want to be drag queens.

And studies conducted by leading universities world-wide prove that appearance is important to a young adult, no matter if they are straight, bi, gay, trans, boy, or girl. This importance diminishes with advanced age. If you are a young trans, you naturally care more about looking sexy because you are still on the dating scene with sexual hormones running through your body. This diminishes as one enters into later years (40+), and studies prove that once a person of any identity reaches an older age where sexuality is less importance, they often "forget" how important that drive is to a young teen or young adult. My experience with adolescent psychology has caused me to come to the conclusion that young adults DO need to look sexy in their chosen identity to build a sense of confidence that will help them survive happily the modern world of technology, fashion, and media. This importance amplifies if a person has a career in media fields, studies show. By no means should a person block themselves from seeking surgical or aesthetic improvements just "for the heck of it", and anyone who is opposed to improvements of any sort is doing so for religiously-inspired reasons. There's just no scientific evidence out there that confidence or "swagger" makes a difference in people of any identity or orientation. Current studies show that looks play the bigger part, as these studies have been done using very complex controls that were not obtainable even just decades ago.

Quite frankly, the case is that if anyone begins to want surgery, they probably are doing so because they've received negative comments already. If someone has not thought of FFS, then chances are, they already pass very well or have somehow found a way to make themselves confident in other ways. There is no 'set cure' for everyone and confidence has the right to come from all sorts of things. Because of sociology and family upbringing, people have the right to base their confidence in a physical image just as much as they have the right to base it on what genitals they have or what career, car, hobbies, or house they have. We're all different and the world would be pretty stale if we weren't.

It's really the same thing as getting the appropriate haircut or finding the appropriate clothes. Surgery is not always meant to give one a "sexy, model" look; surgery is oftentimes done to simply balance out the face or body, and I know the purpose of plastic surgery because I've been a plastic surgery consultant for over 4 years and have underwent procedures myself. I'm usually not the person who brags about experience (I hate when therapists do the same thing) but at the same time, I do not tell people what is required of them or what is right or wrong for them. I simply give people the descriptions of options like a true therapist does, including what I feel to be modern studies that support the freedom of choice, as opposed to the opposition.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 01, 2011, 10:53:32 PM
And studies conducted by leading universities world-wide prove that appearance is important to a young adult, no matter if they are straight, bi, gay, trans, boy, or girl. This importance diminishes with advanced age. If you are a young trans, you naturally care more about looking sexy because you are still on the dating scene with sexual hormones running through your body. This diminishes as one enters into later years (40+), and studies prove that once a person of any identity reaches an older age where sexuality is less importance, they often "forget" how important that drive is to a young teen or young adult.

That's rather misleading... many young people in relationships let their looks go to pot while many single older people dress to impress.  Then again, young people in relationships may dress to impress and single older people may not give a toss about how they look.  My grandfather, up until two months before he was hospitalized for dementia, would never leave the house without his hair oiled back, impeccably groomed, clean and pressed clothes, the whole nine yards.  When he had to go on oxygen, he refused to leave the house ever again because of vanity, and that decision hastened his decline from congestive heart failure.

Also, let's not forget the silent epidemic of STD's spreading through nursing homes.  Senior citizens think that they don't need protection from pregnancy and so they get careless, but transmission of disease still occurs.

All the research that I've read says that sex drive doesn't necessarily diminish due to age, nor do the rules of attraction and the importance of appearance.  Looks are looks and sex is sex, regardless of how many years one has been here.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 01, 2011, 10:53:32 PM
Being a transvestite, cross dresser, or drag queen is the identity where a man dresses in drag or female clothing, but is "proud" of his masculine features and has no desire to change them. A transsexual or transgender is a person who wants to entirely blend in with a female culture WITHOUT being suspected or insulted.

I remain unconvinced that drag queens want to be insulted.

Well, there are horny old folks and no study has ever said that every person is a victim to a loss of libido with age, but the numbers just do decline. However, there's a billion factors involving it, all the way down to health problems, religious beliefs, cultural divides, all that stuff. I truly did not mean that age 40 is where sex just does not become important, but it always seems to be the age where sexuality just tends to start declining for all the reasons above.

With the psychology of sexual attraction, adolescents plain out think about sexual thoughts in a physical manner. They think of faces, they think of bodies, they think of genitals, they think of very physical and specific things; I've rarely met an adolescent who didn't think in this manner. With older age, a combination of things comes into play more frequently. While parts of our sexual system "just get used to" the fact that our dating scene ages with us (and thus we have to settle for less attractive partners), this actually tends to transfer in a complex manner; as we get older, we tend to think of sexual acts in an emotional way. For instance, while an elderly couple may be sexuality active, it is indeed pretty rare that they are attracted to the features of their partner (wrinkles, grey hair, health problems, ect ect) and the sexuality may come more from a emotional place (sexual thoughts may consist more of things like "my partner's so brave and mature" or "my partners so submissive.") It's a form of sexuality that's often noticed in gay men who are trying to become straight (where a gay man may use emotional thoughts or in-the-mind fantasies or memories to get turned on, as opposed to being physically attracted to his spouse.)

Now, I'm not bagging on forms of sexuality one bit and people can be turned on however they wish, it's just that really, it is a common thing for an older adult to say "No one cares how you look sonny, just go be a heathrob and all the girls will run to you." when that only works in much older age groups. When a person is 11-30, that technique only works if the partner they are attracting has a weak emotional complex (for example, the ugly straight guys who know to flirt with the weak girls who have emotional obsessions with sex because of a lack of a good family life.) Again, frankly, adolescence and young adult years are the most common age groups that look at sex in a physical and quite detailed mentality; with later years, sexuality is something that grows more into the emotions of a person. It's not that way for older folks who do have the lucky opportunity to date much younger and much sexier folks (Hugh Heftner?), but to most older adults, thinking of sex in an emotional way is sometimes the main coping technique and source of erection or sexual feelings; it's a technique that is entirely subliminal and some folks develop this even as soon as their sexuality develops as a teen.

And it's really the reason that older adults often forget the importance of specific appearance traits; however, studies also do prove that many folks just do have a loss of libido with age and that they can forget about the importance of sex altogether. Some people never even have sexual drives to begin with. It's just sort of a random bag that can never be taken in exact terms, but can explain many oppositions to say, aesthetic surgery or "becoming ourselves".

Quote from: VeryGnawty on July 01, 2011, 11:28:34 PM
I remain unconvinced that drag queens want to be insulted.

Why is it everyone has to pick one little thing out of a post and make it sound as if its true or written in stone.

She did not write that in her post, it may have been interpreted that way if though of reversed. I feel there are probably quite a few drag queens that if you said they look like a man in a dress they would probably say Oh I bet you say that to all the girls.

Does anybody think Rupal is really a woman and do you think he cares!

BIG! BIG! difference

Quote from: RhinoP on July 01, 2011, 10:53:32 PM
Being a transvestite, cross dresser, or drag queen is the identity where a man dresses in drag or female clothing, but is "proud" of his masculine features and has no desire to change them. A transsexual or transgender is a person who wants to entirely blend in with a female culture WITHOUT being suspected or insulted. That is simply the definition of it. There are facial features that are proven to evoke a masculine or female response in a viewer (these studies have been conducted at world renowned universities), and most transgenders want their masculine features to, if they have them, be improved. Sexual looks also do play a part; even if a trans has relatively female features, if the trans is still considered very odd or ugly looking in a female role or to normal society (obese, misaligned features, skin problems, ect ect), they often want improvements to these sometimes negative features or health problems as well. Trans are people who want to blend positively into a society like a normal attractive girl would, and this includes dating and social roles. A drag queen is someone who wants to "be proud" of masculine features, to flaunt those masculine features while dressing like a woman. A drag queen is the "shock value" version of a transgender. Most of us here do not want to be drag queens.

And studies conducted by leading universities world-wide prove that appearance is important to a young adult, no matter if they are straight, bi, gay, trans, boy, or girl. This importance diminishes with advanced age. If you are a young trans, you naturally care more about looking sexy because you are still on the dating scene with sexual hormones running through your body. This diminishes as one enters into later years (40+), and studies prove that once a person of any identity reaches an older age where sexuality is less importance, they often "forget" how important that drive is to a young teen or young adult. My experience with adolescent psychology has caused me to come to the conclusion that young adults DO need to look sexy in their chosen identity to build a sense of confidence that will help them survive happily the modern world of technology, fashion, and media. This importance amplifies if a person has a career in media fields, studies show. By no means should a person block themselves from seeking surgical or aesthetic improvements just "for the heck of it", and anyone who is opposed to improvements of any sort is doing so for religiously-inspired reasons. There's just no scientific evidence out there that confidence or "swagger" makes a difference in people of any identity or orientation. Current studies show that looks play the bigger part, as these studies have been done using very complex controls that were not obtainable even just decades ago.

Quite frankly, the case is that if anyone begins to want surgery, they probably are doing so because they've received negative comments already. If someone has not thought of FFS, then chances are, they already pass very well or have somehow found a way to make themselves confident in other ways. There is no 'set cure' for everyone and confidence has the right to come from all sorts of things. Because of sociology and family upbringing, people have the right to base their confidence in a physical image just as much as they have the right to base it on what genitals they have or what career, car, hobbies, or house they have. We're all different and the world would be pretty stale if we weren't.

It's really the same thing as getting the appropriate haircut or finding the appropriate clothes. Surgery is not always meant to give one a "sexy, model" look; surgery is oftentimes done to simply balance out the face or body, and I know the purpose of plastic surgery because I've been a plastic surgery consultant for over 4 years and have underwent procedures myself. I'm usually not the person who brags about experience (I hate when therapists do the same thing) but at the same time, I do not tell people what is required of them or what is right or wrong for them. I simply give people the descriptions of options like a true therapist does, including what I feel to be modern studies that support the freedom of choice, as opposed to the opposition.

I dont think there is any question that you are totally clueless!  I'll wire you $1000 if you can guess my age

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on July 01, 2011, 11:07:38 PM
That's rather misleading... many young people in relationships let their looks go to pot while many single older people dress to impress.  Then again, young people in relationships may dress to impress and single older people may not give a toss about how they look.  My grandfather, up until two months before he was hospitalized for dementia, would never leave the house without his hair oiled back, impeccably groomed, clean and pressed clothes, the whole nine yards.  When he had to go on oxygen, he refused to leave the house ever again because of vanity, and that decision hastened his decline from congestive heart failure.

Also, let's not forget the silent epidemic of STD's spreading through nursing homes.  Senior citizens think that they don't need protection from pregnancy and so they get careless, but transmission of disease still occurs.

All the research that I've read says that sex drive doesn't necessarily diminish due to age, nor do the rules of attraction and the importance of appearance.  Looks are looks and sex is sex, regardless of how many years one has been here.

I agree. I'm betting that RhinoP(lasty) is a college freshman home on summer break and has had a human sexuality class.

Quote from: Just Shelly on July 02, 2011, 12:04:15 AM
Why is it everyone has to pick one little thing out of a post and make it sound as if its true or written in stone.

I felt that it wasn't necessary to pick out RhinoP's other grievous stereotypes of drag queens, as they were all based on the same assumption.

If you like, I can pick out a few more of RhinoP's assumptions.  I felt this wasn't necessary as they should be obvious to anyone who read RhinoP's post.  Apparently, I was wrong.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 01, 2011, 10:53:32 PM
A transsexual or transgender is a person who wants to entirely blend in with a female culture WITHOUT being suspected or insulted. That is simply the definition of it.

For one thing, this excludes trans men from the story. For another, to me the definition is more the experience of already being another gender from the one you've been physically lumped with (if we're talking in binary terms), and there's no necessary implication of "wanting to entirely blend in with a [gender] culture". For some people that blending in is important, and for some it isn't.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 01, 2011, 11:53:27 PM
While parts of our sexual system "just get used to" the fact that our dating scene ages with us (and thus we have to settle for less attractive partners), this actually tends to transfer in a complex manner; as we get older, we tend to think of sexual acts in an emotional way. For instance, while an elderly couple may be sexuality active, it is indeed pretty rare that they are attracted to the features of their partner (wrinkles, grey hair, health problems, ect ect) and the sexuality may come more from a emotional place

So what you're saying is that nobody on earth finds older people attractive in any way, shape, or form?  Not even older people?  We just lose our looks and that's it?  Time's up?

Quote from: RhinoP on July 01, 2011, 11:53:27 PM
however, studies also do prove that many folks just do have a loss of libido with age and that they can forget about the importance of sex altogether.

Then please explain to me the plethora of advertisements showing middle-aged PGA rejects going to their TV doctors for stiffy pills.  I'm sure Pfizer's losing a bunch of money by trying to sell Viagra to an uninterested market.

I've taken human sexuality.  In the past year even.  Never heard tell of a single study that mentioned anything you're saying, which seems 100% biased on your opinion that every single person in the world wants young and pretty, and that older people are just washed up.  And if there's anything to adult sexuality, it's not that emotions overtake looks, it's that emotions compliment looks.  That doesn't have anything to do with not looking like someone on the cover of J-14 (or dating someone of that ilk) but everything to do with the emotional maturity that escapes 99% of teenagers.  And that's nothing against teenagers either, but simple biology: complete myelination of the frontal lobes, a center of emotional regulation, isn't complete until around age 25.

Off the record?  I'd do Sean Connery.  Just sayin'.

Quote from: Annah on June 30, 2011, 02:31:22 PM
I would have to 100% disagree with this. A place for support is not a place where people will give out false responses. I am sure the girls who post in the "Do I pass?" thread wants honest feedback. One would assume the "You look fabulous darling" thread is about positive responses so if they want just positive responses then they could there.

One of the biggest assets of a support group is the ability to be honest with each other and to help each other on this journey and to hold each other accountable. To lie in a support forum negates the very essence of why support even exists. So I have to respectfully disagree with your ideals on this matter.

I completely agree!

I'd MUCH rather be told "you really need to do X" as be told I was passing if I wasn't.

I can see a case for not telling the questioner about something they can't possibly practically fix, maybe, because (unless it's a thread about "what surgery do I need?") saying "OMG that's a gigantic nose!" really doesn't help them.
But it's a failure of friendship if they have big caterpillar eyebrows and you say "you pass great!" without giving the advice they are begging you for.

IMO

Quote from: cynthialee on June 30, 2011, 02:42:24 PM
I just posted there recently and the input I got was that I didn't pass due to my hair line and forehead.

Working as intended.

On the other hand, i would also argue that because we make an intense study of the finest details of "looking female" we can also over-analyze. WE notice your hairline because we realize it's an indicator, but MOST people who pass you in the aisle in the grocery are NOT going to say "I see a skirt, i see tits, i see makeup ...but i'll be darned if that isn't a masculine hairline!!!"


They are not looking that close.

now, maybe one's voice outs them and THEN people look again for clues, but in my mind "passing" is not "cannot be detected" but rather "generally goes unnoticed" - my idea of passing is that i'm just like any other (mildly homely) woman you might meet - not that i can stand up to Sherlock Holmes.

Very true Tammy

Most folks are not scrutinizing that closely... Some are, but when I went to the store this eve. the checker and bag boy were so busy flirting, I had to ask the bag boy to hand me my stuff and nearly had to walk the checker through her thing

Night crew youngsters  :P

I really think going to get attacked for this and will regret saying it the second I post but...

for ME, susans has been a great place where ive been able to get some good advice on practical things, talk with similar-minded and -predicamented people, the like..

but i think how much some people focus on the photos is a bit absurd. the "do i pass" threads are great for people who are looking for GENUINE CONFIRMATION that they can safely enter a mens/ladies room, that they can introduce themself as elizabeth/thomas and not be laughed at.

i whole heartedly believe in all the following philosophies: passing is more than a picture, confidence matters, sometimes people don't look as hard as we do for 'clues', etc and I think it all boils down to one thing:

USE THE REAL WORLD. want to know if you pass? well, do you get called sir or ma'am by every day people? when you introduce yourself as erica do people ask you if you just said your name was eric?

I'm not advocating you girls just starting out in transition to throw on a pink miniskirt and run into a public restroom because "confidence is what matters most" and I think all intelligent people reading this know that. I'm just saying that as comforting and excellent of a place susans is, were not transitioning to pass from behind our computer. of course no person in the whole world wants to look unseemly and unattractive but the reality is no matter what you look like, you have to be able to function in the real world. EVERYONE HERE KNOWS AND UNDERSTANDS THE DESIRE TO LIVE AND BE INTERACTED WITH AS THE GENDER YOU KNOW YOURSELF TO BE but being trans is not an excuse to withdraw from a society that doesn't perceive us in the same way we perceive ourselves.

posting four pictures of yourself a day to an online forum looking for people to tell you how pretty you are is equally as obnoxious coming from cisgendered people. i think we all know who these individuals are as opposed to those looking for advice and safety related concerns, so wouldn't the best thing to do be addressing the real concerns and ignoring the narcissists? thanks for listening ladies.. now attack me all you want

The trouble is, I don't think that "do I pass?" is what some people are really asking when they post in such threads. Sometimes, I suspect the question which underpins that is "do you believe I'm a woman?" (or in the case of the guys' threads "do you believe I'm a man?"), and that's why constructive criticism is sometimes taken far more... personally than is ever intended, and also why people are hesitant to give it. It becomes an indentity issue instead of an appearance issue. At least that's my take on it.

Quote from: Sephirah on July 02, 2011, 05:39:35 AM
The trouble is, I don't think that "do I pass?" is what some people are really asking when they post in such threads. Sometimes, I suspect the question which underpins that is "do you believe I'm a woman?" (or in the case of the guys' threads "do you believe I'm a man?"), and that's why constructive criticism is sometimes taken far more... personally than is ever intended, and also why people are hesitant to give it. It becomes an indentity issue instead of an appearance issue. At least that's my take on it.

If those are your pics you certainly do!

I've been thinking the same thing as the topic creator for a while now.  I do check out these threads a few times for inspiration and reminding me that, yes, lots of us can pass. But at the same time, some people just don't plain pass, and then everyone says they pass.  I think everything else that I could say has already been said, though.

This is being posted from a MTF perspective...

I think the importance of the whole passing or not thing is at least partially related to how introverted or extroverted the individual is.

I am a woman and expect to be treated as such. I'm also not ashamed of being TG. I pass as "Stephe" and feel I am a moderately attractive woman. I also feel I am "given the benefit of the doubt" in most cases and people assume I am female at casual inspection. I go by the rule "Use the rest room you are least likely to cause a riot using" and haven't caused one yet :P

I'm also a huge extrovert and really don't mind if I attract attention. I rarely have people use the wrong pronouns etc and feel I mostly blend into my chosen gender. But I have noticed people remember me and say things like "Hi, I remember you. We chat in the post office about a year ago and...." I'm sure they don't remember other people that were in the post office that day a year later lol. Or maybe they remember me because I am so extroverted and will strike up a conversation with almost anyone? Probably a combination of things. In any case I like I am "memorable".

On the other hand some people are VERY introverted and do anything they can to not attract attention. Even if they weren't transgendered. There is nothing wrong with that, it's just a personality trait.  For someone like that, I can understand how passing can be critical to their happiness. I feel I am lucky I am not introverted AND transgendered! That is a tough combination to be.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 01, 2011, 11:53:27 PM
Well, there are horny old folks and no study has ever said that every person is a victim to a loss of libido with age, but the numbers just do decline. However, there's a billion factors involving it, all the way down to health problems, religious beliefs, cultural divides, all that stuff. I truly did not mean that age 40 is where sex just does not become important, but it always seems to be the age where sexuality just tends to start declining for all the reasons above.

With the psychology of sexual attraction, adolescents plain out think about sexual thoughts in a physical manner. They think of faces, they think of bodies, they think of genitals, they think of very physical and specific things; I've rarely met an adolescent who didn't think in this manner. With older age, a combination of things comes into play more frequently. While parts of our sexual system "just get used to" the fact that our dating scene ages with us (and thus we have to settle for less attractive partners), this actually tends to transfer in a complex manner; as we get older, we tend to think of sexual acts in an emotional way. For instance, while an elderly couple may be sexuality active, it is indeed pretty rare that they are attracted to the features of their partner (wrinkles, grey hair, health problems, ect ect) and the sexuality may come more from a emotional place (sexual thoughts may consist more of things like "my partner's so brave and mature" or "my partners so submissive.") It's a form of sexuality that's often noticed in gay men who are trying to become straight (where a gay man may use emotional thoughts or in-the-mind fantasies or memories to get turned on, as opposed to being physically attracted to his spouse.)

Now, I'm not bagging on forms of sexuality one bit and people can be turned on however they wish, it's just that really, it is a common thing for an older adult to say "No one cares how you look sonny, just go be a heathrob and all the girls will run to you." when that only works in much older age groups. When a person is 11-30, that technique only works if the partner they are attracting has a weak emotional complex (for example, the ugly straight guys who know to flirt with the weak girls who have emotional obsessions with sex because of a lack of a good family life.) Again, frankly, adolescence and young adult years are the most common age groups that look at sex in a physical and quite detailed mentality; with later years, sexuality is something that grows more into the emotions of a person. It's not that way for older folks who do have the lucky opportunity to date much younger and much sexier folks (Hugh Heftner?), but to most older adults, thinking of sex in an emotional way is sometimes the main coping technique and source of erection or sexual feelings; it's a technique that is entirely subliminal and some folks develop this even as soon as their sexuality develops as a teen.

And it's really the reason that older adults often forget the importance of specific appearance traits; however, studies also do prove that many folks just do have a loss of libido with age and that they can forget about the importance of sex altogether. Some people never even have sexual drives to begin with. It's just sort of a random bag that can never be taken in exact terms, but can explain many oppositions to say, aesthetic surgery or "becoming ourselves".

Rhino

I have to agree with the majority here and this is out of complete respect. But I have no idea where you are getting these studies. Would you care to link us to these places that show the studies you are talking about?

The reason why I am saying this is because I've taken more sexuality classes in the undergraduate and graduate level than you probably have taken college electives. That wasn't meant to be an attack. I have just taken enough sexuality courses in my 10 years of education that those classes alone could probably give me enough credits for another degree.

What that said, I have to disagree with all of your statements. In my 10 years of sexual education and sexuality courses, I never heard of the studies you talked about. I only heard them from laymen people at a water cooler really but never in a professional article or paper.

Could you link your findings? Thanks! :)

Quote from: Annah on July 02, 2011, 12:53:17 PM
Rhino

I have to agree with the majority here and this is out of complete respect. But I have no idea where you are getting these studies. Would you care to link us to these places that show the studies you are talking about?

The reason why I am saying this is because I've taken more sexuality classes in the undergraduate and graduate level than you probably have taken college electives. That wasn't meant to be an attack. I have just taken enough sexuality courses in my 10 years of education that those classes alone could probably give me enough credits for another degree.

What that said, I have to disagree with all of your statements. In my 10 years of sexual education and sexuality courses, I never heard of the studies you talked about. I only heard them from laymen people at a water cooler really but never in a professional article or paper.

Could you link your findings? Thanks! :)

yeah, what Annah said.....lets see a works cited page! and it better be in the proper format!  :)

on the subject of what happens in the "real world" i had a great experience today:

I got into a conversation with a local man who is openly gay and has been well know to be so his entire adult life (and he's ~50 now). He used to dress what, i believe, was called "twink" - not explicitly feminine but definitely leaning that way, and he'd go in drag when he went out to party. the last few years he's gone more and more explicitly female, but he's NOT trans in the sense of being dissatisfied with being male.

Anyway, while he has blind spots clearly he's better qualified than most to spot a tell.

in the course of a long conversation today, he told me that the first time he saw me out after i went full time he had no idea I wasn't a cis-woman. someone who knew me had to tell him he'd misread me.

That was BIG TIME affirmation for me!

Quote from: Tammy Hope on July 03, 2011, 02:31:27 AM
on the subject of what happens in the "real world" i had a great experience today:

I got into a conversation with a local man who is openly gay and has been well know to be so his entire adult life (and he's ~50 now). He used to dress what, i believe, was called "twink" - not explicitly feminine but definitely leaning that way, and he'd go in drag when he went out to party. the last few years he's gone more and more explicitly female, but he's NOT trans in the sense of being dissatisfied with being male.

Anyway, while he has blind spots clearly he's better qualified than most to spot a tell.

in the course of a long conversation today, he told me that the first time he saw me out after i went full time he had no idea I wasn't a cis-woman. someone who knew me had to tell him he'd misread me.

That was BIG TIME affirmation for me!

That's so awesome, Tammy!!