Susan's Place Transgender Resources

How many people agree that a Transsexual/Transgender is someone who usually wants to pass as a normal woman (ex. a woman who has a husband, kids, house, and career, not the "gay pride parade" type), where a Drag Queen/Crossdresser is more the person who doesn't care about passing as a woman in terms of lifestyle or body/facial features, but just cares more about wearing the wigs, make-up, and clothes instead, and even "gets her kicks" by just belonging to gay clubs and intense-trans-culture events?

For instance, Transsexuals/Transgenders usually are the ones who beg for FFS, Sex-Reassignment, and Hormones, while Drag Queens/Crossdressers usually are the ones who care less and simply wear the clothes/make-up?

My therapist, and many users on here, don't really seem to know the difference from this (especially the very masculine looking Trans who are trying to "brainwash" themselves into thinking they can realistically pass while looking like Andre The Giant.) but it's a very detrimental mindset when it comes to supporting the members who do want surgery and hormones to improve and change their idenitity appearance. Simply "joining a drag bar" isn't a solution for all of us, some of us want to look like we were born normal women because we want to lead normal lives.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 15, 2011, 09:34:07 AM
How many people agree that a Transsexual/Transgender is someone who usually wants to pass as a normal woman (ex. a woman who has a husband, kids, house, and career, not the "gay pride parade" type), where a Drag Queen/Crossdresser is more the person who doesn't care about passing as a woman in terms of lifestyle or body/facial features, but just cares more about wearing the wigs, make-up, and clothes instead, and even "gets her kicks" by just belonging to gay clubs and intense-trans-culture events?

For instance, Transsexuals/Transgenders usually are the ones who beg for FFS, Sex-Reassignment, and Hormones, while Drag Queens/Crossdressers usually are the ones who care less and simply wear the clothes/make-up?

I do not think it's fair to make such broad generalisations grouping all transgender/transsexuals into one group and crossdressers/drag queens into another. It reinforces untrue stereotypes and takes away from the amazing diversity of being human. The assumption that "normal" women want a husband, kids, house, etc is just as harmful. I know many cis-women that don't want those things and to assume that "real" transwomen want them isn't helpful.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 15, 2011, 09:34:07 AM
My therapist, and many users on here, don't really seem to know the difference from this (especially the very masculine looking Trans who are trying to "brainwash" themselves into thinking they can realistically pass while looking like Andre The Giant.) but it's a very detrimental mindset when it comes to supporting the members who do want surgery and hormones to improve and change their idenitity appearance. Simply "joining a drag bar" isn't a solution for all of us, some of us want to look like we were born normal women because we want to lead normal lives.

I'm willing to bet that if you met me, you'd think I was one of those Andre the Giant types. Six foot tall, 245 lbs, broad shoulders. I'm not "brainwashing" myself into anything. In my brain, heart and soul I am a woman and always have been. I didn't make out well on the feminine appearance. I am on hormones and I've already had some surgery. More than anything I just want to be who I am and live my life.  I have been supported here and support others. Placing us into categories and judging who is most deserving of what does nothing but harm those who need help.

I believe that a mindset of embracing the diversity of humanity, understanding that we are all people and supporting each other in our times of need is the most helpful approach.

I don't agree with your terminology, but chiefly because it seems to be based on an assumption that a 'normal woman' is heterosexual, for a start ::) (yes, I know that was just an 'example', but it's a telling one). There are billions of different kinds of woman to be - with different possible lifestyles, sexual orientations, ways of wanting to look, etc. etc. I think your conception of what makes a 'normal woman' is rather narrow and heteronormative, and unrealistic when one looks at the world of women in general, never mind trans women.

But I'm interested to understand better in what way you find other people's choices (that are different from yours) unsupportive?

in short: nope.

Some ciswomen look like Andre the Giant.  :-\

Hahah.

In all seriousness I agree with Padma.

another vote no.

I sure as heck don't want to pass as a normal woman.  >:-)

Also, just because someone has never heard of a drag queen being referred to as "->-bleeped-<-" does not mean they don't know the difference between a drag queen (or king) and a transsexual. We don't all live in the same house.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 15, 2011, 09:34:07 AM
My therapist, and many users on here, don't really seem to know the difference from this (especially the very masculine looking Trans who are trying to "brainwash" themselves into thinking they can realistically pass while looking like Andre The Giant.) but it's a very detrimental mindset when it comes to supporting the members who do want surgery and hormones to improve and change their idenitity appearance. Simply "joining a drag bar" isn't a solution for all of us, some of us want to look like we were born normal women because we want to lead normal lives.

Basically what you are saying is: Unless someone needs to hide from everyone that they are/were transgendered and become a stealth TS (like it sounds like is your goal), they are not and can not live a "normal" life and are detrimental to people here? Good luck chasing the endless surgeries etc trying to erase any evidence of ever being male. You weren't -too- insulting until the Andre the Giant comment.

Like Hannah_Irene, I probably don't fit your ideal "passing as a natal female"  person but I do live my life as a woman and 99.99% of the time, people treat me as such. I have done what I can to improve my appearance but don't obsess on passing. I am VERY happy now and live a "normal" life. I go to work, church, belong to civic associations etc. I don't live in some trans friendly complex, attend trans meetings and or go to drag bars etc. None of my friends are trans but I know a few TS's at church who seem nice enough. I don't focus on being trans anymore but I'm not ashamed of it either. Do people who call me "ma'am" clock me? I have no idea and honestly don't care as long as I am respected and treated like a woman.

So are you really saying that if someone is 6'4" and broad shoulders they shouldn't ask for support here and only dainty framed males who would likely be able to be surgically changed to stealth mode should be posting here? I REALLY get sick of the people preaching: Pretty & Stealth TS > any other form of being trans. And then you complaining we are "detrimental" to you and YOUR perceived needs.

I feel people who promote being stealth and passing as the only option to "lead a normal life" are more detrimental to most of the people who come here looking for help than what you are complaining about.

No, I dont agree.

Mostly because its too narrow.

Too many labels for me.

"Normal" is a setting on my dishwasher.

I just want to be me.  Nothing more, nothing less.

NO

Quote from: RhinoP on July 15, 2011, 09:34:07 AM
How many people agree that a Transsexual/Transgender is someone who usually wants to pass as a normal woman (ex. a woman who has a husband, kids, house, and career, not the "gay pride parade" type), where a Drag Queen/Crossdresser is more the person who doesn't care about passing as a woman in terms of lifestyle or body/facial features, but just cares more about wearing the wigs, make-up, and clothes instead, and even "gets her kicks" by just belonging to gay clubs and intense-trans-culture events?

Assuming that you use the word "normal" in the statistical sense, I would agree somewhat, with the following changes to the above:

I don't agree with the term "pass". People either get it right or wrong. I don't try to pass as something I'm not.

Not all of us are straight ("a woman who has a husband"), but being a lesbian doesn't mean I don't want a normal life. I don't know if I'd want kids, but I wish I had the choice. Actually some may be perfectly normal without being in any committed relationship too.

There is also only so much stressing over appearance that a person can do. We aren't all going to be supermodels. I don't believe that not buying into the cultural obsession with appearance means that someone doesn't want a normal life. This also begins to point to the serious flaws in just what is normal in present society, but that was not the subject of this thread.

Also keep in mind that "normal" has a different meaning when applied to an individual than when applied to a large group. "Normal" for one person I would define to be what feels comfortable and familiar to said person. If that does not fit the higher level statistical norm, it does not necessarily mean that the individual in question is not normal.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on July 15, 2011, 04:37:32 PM
I just want to be me.  Nothing more, nothing less.

This is what I mean by normal for one person. Attempting to be something other than who a person naturally is (person, not body) would be abnormal.

Add another "no" to the list, since I also disagree.

I don't have a problem with labels per se. I think that words like "transgender" and "cisgender" (or, for that matter, "gay" and "straight") can be helpful shortcuts in our language to get ideas across somewhat quickly without having to go into huge, long explanations about gender expression and sexual orientation every time you talk to someone about these issues or your personal feelings.

However, when dealing with things that are as complex as sexual orientation, gender identity, and how we express them, these tidy little labels are still lacking in something. As a transgender person (MtF) who has feelings mostly for men, you could call me a heterosexual trans woman. I, however, reject the label "heterosexual" simply because, for my entire life so far, I have been seen and treated as a homosexual male. And this is so entrenched in my personal politics and private history that I think I will always have more solidarity with gay men than I do straight women. Does this make me a "bad" MtF? I don't think so. A lot of us aspire to make our gender presentations and our bodies match the way we feel inside, but that doesn't mean we erase our past and how it shaped us.

Call me a femme fairy boy. Call me a Halloween ->-bleeped-<-. I don't care. I know that I am ME, and that my path is justifiably right.

And another No here.

And redefining terms to suit your point or beliefs or needs does not make your self-created definition any more accurate than the already defined meaning of the term.

This applies to any term you feel you can define "Better" than it's already defined as.

(I've repeating this three times today!)

You know what else you've missed in your post?
TRANS MEN!
That's right, transsexuals who were assigned female at birth, but are MEN!
I'm a trans man in a polyamorous relationship with my genderfluid husband. I'm also a mother to my daughter and an artist and a student and a politically minded individual. I'm a million tiny little things.

Suggesting that the "definition" of transsexual is a woman is blatantly dismissive of my very existence, let alone this nonsensical idea of a "normal" woman.

All women are "normal" women.
My mother who runs her company with her husband, flies planes, rides motorcycles, and dresses more smart than most younger women I've ever seen is a "normal" woman.
My husband's girlfriend who wears a mish-mash of hippy and grungy styles of clothing, walks everywhere, and likes to play first person shooters is a "normal" woman.
My lesbian friend who wears high heels and work clothes and loves bacon and wrestling and watching cheesy horror movies is a "normal" woman.
My trans woman friend who likes to go barefoot in brightly coloured clothes and wants to learn to be a veterinarian is a "normal" woman.

The suggestion of otherwise is very very rude!

while Drag Queens/Crossdressers usually are the ones who care less

How can I tell you've never known a drag queen and don't understand the first thing about it?

Nope!

Who knew that as a former transsexual who happens to be lesbian that, because I frequent the lesbian bars, I really wasn't a transsexual after all...after all of these years (none of which included ANY measure of FFS) that I learn I was something else. 

And yeah, that was sarcasm used to point out that, NO, I do not agree with OP's attempts at terminology...I also concur with tekla's observation.

Quote from: Miniar on July 17, 2011, 10:50:26 AM


You know what else you've missed in your post?
TRANS MEN!
That's right, transsexuals who were assigned female at birth, but are MEN!

Thank you, thought i was the only one who noticed!!

Ans its a big NO from me too. Padma summed it up for me.

I'm another NO.  I think everyone has already covered all the reasons why.   

I have to agree, that makes me just want to scream NO.

<<<This post has been killed off due to a...erm...late rejudgement of its content.  Apologies to those who this post hurt ._. >>>

A big fat no.

You can't foist your stereotypical definitions on the rest of the world.

I'm a lesbian, I march in pride parades and I'm not having FFS.

Here's my thing:

I preach Stealth Transitioning because I'm an actor, author, media host, musician, activist, consultant, and I once had dreams of being a teacher in Public Schools. I do not conform my life to my image (aka literally living a lowkey life out of fear, shyness, or addictively involving myself into Trans-friendly events/religions) and because of that, I have had extreme discrimination, hate, abuse, and failure in my life directly based on how I am brave enough to try for mainstream and public careers despite my appearance. I do need realistic transitioning because of those given careers, and I will not accept that I do not need that transition until I meet at least one other person who has succeeded in these particular careers while belonging to an unrealistic Identity Appearance (aka the "Andre The Giant" look.)

That's certainly different from any users here. I state this all the time quite plainly: I have not, and I repeat, have not met an Identity Person who could not realistically pass but still has succeeded at the careers I describe above. Most of these people (including the ones on this very thread) that admit "I do not pass" specifically say "so I instead immerse myself into Church, Community, and/or Trans-Friendly Events." That's just what users have said, and it reflects the Transsexual population across the country from what I've seen; Trans who do not pass well tend to give up major Surgery or Hormone steps in favor of immersing themselves in a Religious or Trans-Event lifestyle out of needing a type of support that only passable Trans tend to get from non-Religious / non-Event sources.

However, Passable Transpeople, wether naturally Passable or Surgically/Hormonally Passable, often seem to succeed at a higher rate in very large careers or even public careers like Modeling, Acting, CEO positions, Pornography, and even careers that many of us would not dream possible, such as Public School-Teaching or Politics. It's a typical psychological pattern that exists outside of the Transworld as well, it's nothing Trans specific. It's been a concept across time that the more physically attractive or physically healthy a person is, the higher their chances are at a career that involves a professional, realistic, attractive image - if that is the career they personally choose from the bottom of their heart, such as what I have done. I chose all my careers back when I was 6 years old - they are a part of my Identity just as being Trans is. I'm not going to go march in a Pride Parade just because I don't Pass, I'd rather Pass and live in Stealth.

That's my choice and I believe everyone should have the freedom to make that choice. Quite frankly, it seems many people here do not have the mental freedom to make that choice, and have let their bodies control their choices instead. How many people here are brave enough to admit that they choose Event or Religious lifestyles because they cannot realistically pass? I'm personally brave enough to say that I've never once given up my real-world dreams of succeeding in my career fields just because I don't pass, and I'd like to see more people make that choice. And if a person needs hormones or surgery to succeed in that choice, then it's simply an option that thousands of members here have chosen. There's official sections of this website labeled "FFS", "Hormone Therapy", and "Transitioning" after all. I have a "watched" label under my Username because I preach concepts that this very website endorses.

I don't care what the users here think, I don't care what the moderators here think, but Susan herself seems to support my opinions on medical transitioning or else she would not have created the specific sub-forums. She would not have created them if she had a Religious or Personal reason why she thought Medical Transitioning is not a valued or positive option for the people who choose it. And that's simply what I said in my original post. Medical Transitioning has been proven to be a positive tool for the people who choose it, and Religion and Event lifestyles are proven to be a positive choice for people who choose them. Many people choose the first lifestyle instead of the second, and there's nothing wrong with that by law of the United States. This means that yes, these two choices tend to create a person who falls under one label or another, and I believe that, at least from what I have seen, Gender people believe that Transgender categorizes people who do not medically transition, and Transsexual seems to categorize people who do.

What does that have to do with terminology?

Quote from: LordKAT on July 19, 2011, 12:07:52 AM
What does that have to do with terminology?

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PM
These two choices tend to create a person who falls under one label or another, and I believe that, at least from what I have seen, Gender people believe that Transgender categorizes people who do not medically transition, and Transsexual seems to categorize people who do.

However, we all have Gender Identity Disorder, that is the big umbrella term.

I mean really, Susan herself specifically put the medical transitioning sub-forums under Transsexualism, and did not add these sections to the Transgendered, Androgynous, or Crossdressing sections. Bet you if she had a word in this, it would be "I didn't add it to those sections because those are the people usually do not want, or only minimally want, medical changes."

A big deal with me is how this works into Therapy and Psychiatry. I believe there's a very serious difference between how Transsexuals should be able to transition verses how Transgenders should be able to transition. I believe professionals should realize that Transsexuals are people who seem to more often than not feel suicidal without physical changes being able to take place, while Transgenders seem to be the people who quite literally have no problem holding on to their natural genitalia or facial features for extended periods of time. It's not so much that the labels have to be strict, but that types of people need to be taken into account for really un-thoughtout things like Real Life Processes.

Well, "being unrealistic with yourself and simply coming to terms with being unhappy" and is in my opinion a religious concept, because I've seen the most extreme M-T-F and F-T-M transitions in the world, literally cases where people will spend thousands and thousands of dollars on surgery (or if their genetics are lucky enough, only spending $20 a month on hormone therapy) and for thousands of patients, this method has worked wonders. Please see the links in my signature for direct sources and examples on that topic.

Now, quite literally, one of the few surgeries that does not exist is height-reduction surgery for men who are very tall, but Anti-Androgens could have prevented that person from being tall if they received hormone therapy at a young age, the way it's done in the UK. Any person who limits their lifestyle based on an overbearing height or facial appearance is the victim of growing up in 1972. If they grew up in parts of the UK in this current age, and with accepting parents, they would have been put on Androgen blockers and they would have grown up to be around the size and appearance of their mother instead of their father. It's very simple.

And also, Muffin, you describe the difference between an Identity disorder and a Cross Dresser. People with Identity Disorder do not easily accept that they can't dress-or-identify-or-pass as female, without becoming suicidal. However, if the person is simply a Cross Dresser and only has a sexual fetish for dressing like a woman, the consequence of not passing is much less severe and usually does not cause them to commit suicide. Transsexuals aren't the people who can easily accept not being who they want to be, while identities like Cross Dresser, Drag Queen, and such usually do not hold the Identity to a suicidal point, which is what causes them not to have the passion for transitioning with medical means. I personally wish I could bring back all the people who have committed suicide over the inability to pass or identify, so they could speak their mind about it, but they're dead. I simply carry on the wishes they've expressed before their death.

Also, all of this holds true for people who cut off their own legs: most patients of that identity/disorder tend to either chop of their own legs or end their life. It's really quite extreme what these types of people do if you leave them to their own devices (many patients of this end up injecting Feces into their knee-caps), and many doctors in the UK support amputating the legs and getting it overwith for the person (or else locking them up in an extreme mental disability home). I mean, maybe this forum is primarily American, I'm not sure, but I do know what goes on in the UK (and in many parts of the US too) and I do know that starting years ago, teenagers are being put on hormones not only to make them "mentally" align with Female, but to stop extreme masculinity such as height, facial changes, hair growth, ect ect.

I agree with all those definitions Muffin, and those definitions are what make your statement of "If you want to look unrealistic and out of place, then that's your fault" downright foolish.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PM
Here's my thing:

That's my choice and I believe everyone should have the freedom to make that choice. Quite frankly, it seems many people here do not have the mental freedom to make that choice, and have let their bodies control their choices instead. How many people here are brave enough to admit that they choose Event or Religious lifestyles because they cannot realistically pass? I'm personally brave enough to say that I've never once given up my real-world dreams of succeeding in my career fields just because I don't pass, and I'd like to see more people make that choice. And if a person needs hormones or surgery to succeed in that choice, then it's simply an option that thousands of members here have chosen. There's official sections of this website labeled "FFS", "Hormone Therapy", and "Transitioning" after all. I have a "watched" label under my Username because I preach concepts that this very website endorses.

I don't care what the users here think, I don't care what the moderators here think, but Susan herself seems to support my opinions on medical transitioning or else she would not have created the specific sub-forums. She would not have created them if she had a Religious or Personal reason why she thought Medical Transitioning is not a valued or positive option for the people who choose it. And that's simply what I said in my original post. Medical Transitioning has been proven to be a positive tool for the people who choose it, and Religion and Event lifestyles are proven to be a positive choice for people who choose them. Many people choose the first lifestyle instead of the second, and there's nothing wrong with that by law of the United States. This means that yes, these two choices tend to create a person who falls under one label or another, and I believe that, at least from what I have seen, Gender people believe that Transgender categorizes people who do not medically transition, and Transsexual seems to categorize people who do.

Well hun your "thing" is just plain wrong PERIOD. You really have a binary way of thinking don't you? Just because someone isn't stealth doesn't mean their life is then destined to be a "religious or trans event based lifestyle. Obviously you can't go out wearing a pink tutu and expect to be treated normally but today, being transgendered is being accepted more and more. I find it HORRIBLE that people such as yourself who ARE trans, are still beating this nonsense stereotype crap from 30 years ago. OK, I get some people are so shy etc or can't face the reality that they are trans and have to act/pretend they aren't trans i.e. stealth. But don't try to push your "stealth or you belong in a gay pride parade" BS.

It's also HIGHLY insulting that you seem to be saying that if someone is say taller than a "normal" woman, they should just forget ever being a woman since in YOUR opinion they will look like 'andre the giant'? Today there are PLENTY of actors, musicians and every other career you listed who are OUT TG/TS's **YOU** are what is limiting what you can do with your life. AGain I have no idea why you constantly preach your stealth nonsense but it's not required to live a "normal life as a woman".

All that said, there is NOTHING wrong with altering your body as you see fit to make youself more attractive. People have been doing that since the beginning of recorded history. But don't equate -lots of people medically alter their body to be more feminine- with there being a need for stealth unless you want to spend the rest of your life hiding in a church or trans friendly events..

Quote from: Muffin on July 19, 2011, 01:40:36 AM
you quoted something I never said? wait why am I so shocked..... heaps of people do that in a seemingly desperate attempt to make someone look bad by putting words in their mouth. But because I'm bored....

If people anyone..regardless of whether they are trans, post trans, natal or... otherwise wear something that doesn't look complimentary to their 'beings' and it results in people making jokes and pointing fingers then those people are more than entitled to feel that way. If the one dressed uncomplimentary is offended then that is their issue as they have the choice to ignore the nasty comments.
Personally I like people that express themselves in unique ways though on the same hand in my opinion I do find some people do go too far or to simply have a taste I don't enjoy as much. Just because someone is trans or similar doesn't mean they can have some kind of veto or privilege of special treatment.

Right, this "not dressing complimentary" is NOT a trans specific thing. Just like if someone is over weight, there are clothes they should NOT wear. I know I shouldn't wear 4 inch heels or a skimpy bathing suit. I am very picky about what kinda clothes I wear trying to make myself look unique but also attractive and compliment my good points. I think MOST women take a while to develop a style that suits them. I look at some early shots of how I looked as a woman and cringe but back then I thought it looked fine. But the fact I didn't "dress stealthly" when I first starting living full time doesn't mean I am a different person than I am today.

I think the most insulting/nonsense thing this RhioP said is there should be two different "transition paths", one for people who are suicidal and then a different one for people who are not. Some people are just more prone to suicide and would kill themselves for a VARIETY of reasons. Note MOST suicides have absolutely NOTHING to do with gender issues. The fact that a suicidal person is also transgendered/TS doesn NOT make them "more TS" nor does that differentiate a TS from a TG. I agree with your definitions Muffin, it's really just that simple..

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMHere's my thing:

Oh dear...
I'm sorry hun, but I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of what you've said here... again.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMI preach Stealth Transitioning

The problem isn't with "stealth transitioning" the problem is with "preach".
Yes, you are preaching. I doubt you realize that's what you're doing, but you are.
The thing is, no matter how much you tell other people that unless they do things your way they aren't "really" a transsexual you are not right. You don't have the right to tell other people how to label themselves, you don't have the right to dictate anyone else's identity or transition and you certainly do NOT have the right to talk down to those that make different choices than you do.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMbecause I'm an actor, author, media host, musician, activist, consultant, and I once had dreams of being a teacher in Public Schools. I do not conform my life to my image (aka literally living a lowkey life out of fear, shyness, or addictively involving myself into Trans-friendly events/religions) and because of that, I have had extreme discrimination, hate, abuse, and failure in my life directly based on how I am brave enough to try for mainstream and public careers despite my appearance.

This is not caused by your appearance, it's caused by prejudice and misinformation.
Yes, changing your appearance will help you get out of the fires of prejudice and misinformation, but it does nothing to put those fires out.
I can understand that there are those that don't have the strength to face these fires and just want to live their lives, and there's nothing wrong with that, but most of those people don't openly "mock" those who face the fires which again, is something you do.

A little respect goes a long way.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMI do need realistic transitioning because of those given careers, and I will not accept that I do not need that transition until I meet at least one other person who has succeeded in these particular careers while belonging to an unrealistic Identity Appearance (aka the "Andre The Giant" look.)

Just in case you're thinking you might argue against being called on your mocking, here it is.
You suggest that people who don't pass belong to an "unrealistic" "identity appearance" and have the gall to call them "Andre the Giant". You are perpetuating transmysoginy. You are perpetuating inequality. You are perpetuating misinformation. You are being incredibly rude and self-righteous.

Just because "you" feel that a person doesn't look "right" does not give you any right to compare them to "andre the giant" or call their appearance "unrealistic".
Every human being should be allowed to be themselves. If that means they look in a way that "you" feel is unattractive, then you should just accept that, it's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMThat's certainly different from any users here. I state this all the time quite plainly: I have not, and I repeat, have not met an Identity Person who could not realistically pass but still has succeeded at the careers I describe above.

And who's fault is that?
The person who "can't pass" or society's for being so fixated on appearance and gender binary and gender roles and puritan and ignorant views of the human sex, sexuality, and gender?
Secondly, you should come over here, to Iceland, where trans people in any stage of transition pursue what life they want. Period.
We have a high profile trans woman, who's open about her transition and her history, who's been featured as a model in several of our magazines and is frequently on telly and so on.
A non-transitioning maab (male assigned at birth) gender-fluid person (presenting as "mostly" female) is active in politics and I voted for them to participate in rewriting the Icelandic constitution not too long ago. They've also been on telly and in newspapers.
Etc, etc, etc..

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMMost of these people (including the ones on this very thread) that admit "I do not pass" specifically say "so I instead immerse myself into Church, Community, and/or Trans-Friendly Events." That's just what users have said, and it reflects the Transsexual population across the country from what I've seen;

This however is not the case 'round here.
So, think about it, is the problem the appearance? or the country?

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMTrans who do not pass well tend to give up major Surgery or Hormone steps in favor of immersing themselves in a Religious or Trans-Event lifestyle out of needing a type of support that only passable Trans tend to get from non-Religious / non-Event sources.

Yeah, hi there.
You've met me before. I'm the person who likes to pick apart your posts when they're rude and very inaccurate.
I'm a very passable trans man.
I'm 6'2, post-chest-surgery, over a year and a half on T, deep voiced, approx 200lbs (mostly muscle), and those who "don't know" just can't guess.
I'm very active in my local gender, sex, and sexuality minority group. This means Trans, Gay, Bi, Lesbian, Pansexual, Asexual, etc, etc, etc, etc, people.
It's got NOTHING to do with whether I pass or not and EVERYTHING to do with the fact that I want to see equality in my life. It's where politics come in as a passion for me.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMHowever, Passable Transpeople, wether naturally Passable or Surgically/Hormonally Passable, often seem to succeed at a higher rate in very large careers or even public careers like Modeling, Acting, CEO positions, Pornography, and even careers that many of us would not dream possible, such as Public School-Teaching or Politics.

Again, "where you live", not here.
I'll ask you once more, you think it's their apprearance? or the country? (Hint, it's the country.)

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMIt's a typical psychological pattern that exists outside of the Transworld as well, it's nothing Trans specific. It's been a concept across time that the more physically attractive or physically healthy a person is, the higher their chances are at a career that involves a professional, realistic, attractive image - if that is the career they personally choose from the bottom of their heart, such as what I have done.

"realistic, attractive" image.
What is considered attractive changes through time.
Also, this just isn't true.
You know who's most likely to get hired these days?
The person with the best qualifications to do the job in question.

Also, since acting was mentioned..
Look up Michael Berryman for example, or DJ Qualls, or Marty Feldman, or Clint Howard, or Shane MacGowan, or Lyle Lovett (who by the by married Julia Roberts), or Iggy Pop, Courtney Love, Donatella Versace, Amy Winehouse, Kelly Osbourne, Nancy Pelosi, Kim McGuire, Rosi de Palma, Sandra Bernhard, John C. Reilly, Steve Buscemi, Paz de la Huerta, Camilla Parker-Bowles, Janet Reno, Kathy Burke, Rhea Perlman, Helen Clark.....

I'm not suggesting any of these people are "ugly", what I'm pointing out that these are people who are not considered "traditionally" beautiful, but they make up for it with ideals, skills, talents, humor, etc.
Suggesting that pretty helps may be right, but putting this much weight on pretty is dangerous at best.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMI chose all my careers back when I was 6 years old - they are a part of my Identity just as being Trans is. I'm not going to go march in a Pride Parade just because I don't Pass, I'd rather Pass and live in Stealth.

I am marching in Pride, NOT because I don't pass, but because I value what it stands for, I want to support that fight for equality, because it's "right".

Also, when I was 6, I didn't have the information required to make an informed decision to follow "any" career, how did you?

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMThat's my choice and I believe everyone should have the freedom to make that choice.

I disagree.
Everyone should have the freedom to make "their" choice. You should be free to make "your" choice. Other people should be free to make theirs.
Without us running 'round and devaluing their identity because they didn't make the same choice as we did!

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMQuite frankly, it seems many people here do not have the mental freedom to make that choice, and have let their bodies control their choices instead.

Excuse me, but did you just say that those that make different choices than you do, taking their physical ability into account, just lack the "mental freedom" to do things your way? Because if you just did, boy was that self-righteous and horribly rude!

Secondly, The suggestion that those with "mental freedom" don't let their bodies have any control over their choices is utterly disgusting for another reason.
For example, I have fibromyalgia.
I am dealing with chronic pain and chronic fatigue every day of my life and probably will be for the rest of my life.
I am in pain. Too much pain to do any, for example, "heavy running".
Does this mean that when I go "aww, I'd love to, but I'm just too effing exhausted right now" that I'm lacking "the mental freedom" to get up and run a marathon?
Seriously.
Think before you speak.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMHow many people here are brave enough to admit that they choose Event or Religious lifestyles because they cannot realistically pass?

This is a leading question suggesting that anyone that disagrees (like me) with you on the reasons for why they participate will just be brushed off as lacking brevity by you.
It's really disrespectful.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMI'm personally brave enough to say that I've never once given up my real-world dreams of succeeding in my career fields just because I don't pass, and I'd like to see more people make that choice.

So, why aren't you working on your career fields?
I'm working on mine, or, as much as I'm physically able, the pain and fatigue take a lot out of me.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMAnd if a person needs hormones or surgery to succeed in that choice, then it's simply an option that thousands of members here have chosen.

Here we agree. If a person needs hormones or surgery to feel comfortable in their skin, and they need to feel comfortable in their skin to carry on living and pursuing their dreams, then yes, they should get that help!

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMThere's official sections of this website labeled "FFS", "Hormone Therapy", and "Transitioning" after all. I have a "watched" label under my Username because I preach concepts that this very website endorses.

That is a bold faced lie right there.
You know why you're watched.
You were told.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMI don't care what the users here think, I don't care what the moderators here think, but Susan herself seems to support my opinions on medical transitioning or else she would not have created the specific sub-forums.

Excuse me, but no one here has suggested that medical transition is not something to strive towards. What people have been arguing against is your authoratative tone and exclusivism.

Go re-read the site rules. Susan wrote them. They are the reason why you're watched.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMShe would not have created them if she had a Religious or Personal reason why she thought Medical Transitioning is not a valued or positive option for the people who choose it.

No one here is arguing that a medical transition is not a valued or positive option for the people who choose it. No one.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMAnd that's simply what I said in my original post. Medical Transitioning has been proven to be a positive tool for the people who choose it, and Religion and Event lifestyles are proven to be a positive choice for people who choose them.

Er, no, that's not what you said at all.
I can quote your original post if you want.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMMany people choose the first lifestyle instead of the second, and there's nothing wrong with that by law of the United States.

The law of the US is irrelevant as this is an international site, but even if it wasn't, the law of the US is not a great tool to examine what's morally right or wrong.

NO ONE is arguing that there is anything wrong with medical transition.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PMThis means that yes, these two choices tend to create a person who falls under one label or another, and I believe that, at least from what I have seen, Gender people believe that Transgender categorizes people who do not medically transition, and Transsexual seems to categorize people who do.

HERE is what we're telling you is wrong.
Your definitions.
Your insistence that you're right even when you're wrong.
Your attitude that you can tell people who's transgender/transsexual and who isn't.

Get your facts straight.

No, you know what?  Rhino is exactly right, for if everyone gets to define these terms for themselves, this is the kind of junk you have to accept as part of that mix.

Quote from: Muffin on July 19, 2011, 09:20:40 AM
"OK, I get some people are so shy etc or can't face the reality that they are trans and have to act/pretend they aren't trans i.e. stealth. But don't try to push your "stealth or you belong in a gay pride parade" BS. "

Are you saying people that consider going or are "stealth" do so because they refuse to be considered or "acknowledge" they "are" transsexual? To me transsexualism is not strictly a form of identity as much as it is a medical condition which is why it's considered transition. For example male TO female or female TO male not male to transsexual period. It's perfectly ok for those that do pass consistently to consider themselves female only and no longer consider wearing a trans label. Just because you consider yourself a woman only doesn't mean you are suggesting you are a natal female. I mean natal women don't prefix "natal" to their sex so why be expected to prefix trans if you don't need to?
If someone feels that they are not comfortable saying they're not trans or feel they don't pass completely then sure... identify as trans or transwoman/man that is also fine. There is no hard and fast rule.

I did say  "some people" not everyone. :P

I'm sure there are many exceptions to what I'm about to say but many of the people I have talked to and read online stating they have an over riding -need- to be totally stealth, seems to hinge on: their innate shyness, their belief that they will be heavily discriminated against for being trans, or their belief -they are not nor have ever had any form of TS/TG issues- and this simply was a physical  "birth defect that needs to be corrected".

I don't ID myself as "trans" as the main adjective to describe myself either, any more than I use white or tall etc. But I am all of those. First though, I'm a woman and have no -need- to add a prefix to it. I guess I don't see the negative to being trans (or white or tall) so find no need to try to be stealth about it. I do want to be an attractive person, as most people seem to. I have done and are going to do more things to my body towards that goal. I do admit that being stealth in and of itself would make some parts of my life less complicated, but then things like the fear of discovery etc just adds back different ones IMHO of course. I totally understand why some people chose to just move, leave their old life behind and work hard to "be stealth" in their new life. Being trans isn't easy any route you choose, the hardest is trying to ignore it altogether.

I do feel as more trans people are out, this discrimination will subside and already is. People are starting to see that "trans people" are just normal people. I'm proud to feel I am a part of this change and honestly feel that is why God made me this way and is part of my purpose for being here. But I also would NEVER demand someone else makes this same choice for themselves. And yes, there are people who still discriminate against trans people. Everyone has their own personal tolerance level for dealing with rude people etc. I feel I am lucky I have a pretty strong tolerance level (thick skin) and ignore most of it as just being ignorant.

I'm not going to belittle someone who wants to take the stealth route. But I have noted that many of the people who chose that route also like to -preach- their way is the ONLY way to "be a normal woman", belittle people who don't follow their path as "freaks", that those people's actions somehow make their life more difficult and it seems to be something I see the stealth crowd saying over and over..

I think the thing that we keep on bumping into here is the arrogance of someone
making characterizations and generalizations of other people's motivations.

The world is not neat, it defies your over-simplistic boxes.

I'm politically active, I march in pride parades, I've never considered suicide.
That makes me in your book an embittered non-passing transsexual
who subjugates their feelings in pride parades/religion? Not!

there is no such thing as a "normal woman." everyone formulates their own definition of what that is, and there are no two people who would completely agree. obviously, a goal of being a "real woman" is pretty out of reach for me. just having asperger's, being 5'11, hiding male genitals under my clothing, and being 240 pounds of fat pretty much disqualifies me from that. it doesn't matter though, i know my sense of identity, and i know how to find the best in myself.

^^^ good point there is NO SUCH thing as "normal"!

My input is I see plenty of gender born women that could pass for the 'andre-the-giant' look or whatever that is, and I am way way prettier than them, and I STILL put up with tons of discrimination from people in my neighborhood and these gender females dont even know the half of what its like! Its because ppl are prejudice towards us period and even worse is right now I could care less about passing currently....dont get me wrong I wish I could with short hair and small breasts but I like wearing regular tshirts and jeans and I look good in them, better than more than half of the gender women in my neighborhood, but I still deal with more harassment than they do everywhere I go because I live my life semi-passable and people hate me and they hate LOTS of other things as well, so ->-bleeped-<- em.

Quote from: Stephe on July 19, 2011, 10:57:42 AM
I'm sure there are many exceptions to what I'm about to say but many of the people I have talked to and read online stating they have an over riding -need- to be totally stealth, seems to hinge on: their innate shyness, their belief that they will be heavily discriminated against for being trans, or their belief -they are not nor have ever had any form of TS/TG issues- and this simply was a physical  "birth defect that needs to be corrected".

I am one of those who would generally be described as 'stealth.'  I would not describe it as an 'overriding need' to be stealth.  It has nothing to do with shyness or even concerns about being discriminated against.  I *DID* have a medical condition that was associated with a defect of birth and that *WAS* corrected. 

QuoteI do feel as more trans people are out, this discrimination will subside and already is.

AND

QuoteI'm not going to belittle someone who wants to take the stealth route. But I have noted that many of the people who chose that route also like to -preach- their way is the ONLY way to "be a normal woman", belittle people who don't follow their path as "freaks", that those people's actions somehow make their life more difficult and it seems to be something I see the stealth crowd saying over and over..

I don't see most of the stealth crowd defining 'normal' in any manner.  Are there exceptions?  Sure.  However, what you may see is that some of us who basically are stealth in our lives tend not to like flamboyance in ANY walk of life.  We often DO subscribe to a binary school of thought.  And, as we have seen on the boards, some of us DO take exception to having OUR identity coopted under the banner of an umbrella school of thought that suggests everyone should be out as trans-(insert term du jour). 

My personal medical history does not come up at work, it has never been made an issue in any case where I testified as an expert and it isn't something one would expect to find if they knew my real-life identity.  They are far more likely to figure out through that search that I was lesbian, but even at that, they won't find much because there isn't much about me on the web...and for some of us, normal includes maintaining a modicum of privacy in our personal lives.

OUR identity coopted under the banner of an umbrella school of thought that suggests everyone should be out as trans-(insert term du jour)

That you found some part of yourself in that identity does not give you ownership over it, or veto power for how it's used.  Things change, words change and shift meanings, needs are rearranged and other people - with just as much of themselves in that identity - will find other ways to use it.  It's not good or bad, it just is what it is.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on July 21, 2011, 09:53:21 AM
I am one of those who would generally be described as 'stealth.'  I would not describe it as an 'overriding need' to be stealth.  It has nothing to do with shyness or even concerns about being discriminated against.  I *DID* have a medical condition that was associated with a defect of birth and that *WAS* corrected. 

AND

I don't see most of the stealth crowd defining 'normal' in any manner.  Are there exceptions?  Sure.  However, what you may see is that some of us who basically are stealth in our lives tend not to like flamboyance in ANY walk of life.  We often DO subscribe to a binary school of thought.  And, as we have seen on the boards, some of us DO take exception to having OUR identity coopted under the banner of an umbrella school of thought that suggests everyone should be out as trans-(insert term du jour). 

My personal medical history does not come up at work, it has never been made an issue in any case where I testified as an expert and it isn't something one would expect to find if they knew my real-life identity.  They are far more likely to figure out through that search that I was lesbian, but even at that, they won't find much because there isn't much about me on the web...and for some of us, normal includes maintaining a modicum of privacy in our personal lives.

No offense intended but you fit into what I was saying fits most stealth people from what I have seen. You say "it has nothing to do with shyness" but also add "tend not to like flamboyance in ANY walk of life". Maybe I shouldn't have used the word shyness but instead introverted vs extroverted personality? You do follow the "It was simply a birth defect I had corrected" part...

I am NOT and have never asked for anyone to "be out" or do anything that doesn't improve their own life. I do believe the more out trans people there are, the less "shocking" it is and the more acceptable this becomes. Not your job to do that if you don't want to.  I don't think the gender umbrella is asking anyone to do anything. Maybe the GLB group is -asking- people to come out, I don't feel the T part is.

The things that do bother me are: when TS's start explaining "Unless you are stealth you will be murdered" or implying "stealth TS > any of this other and I am shouldn't be subjected to being grouped with those nasty people" type of comments I see quite often. The one thing I won't ignore is when a TS starts fighting AGAINST my rights or are trying to reenforce old stereotypes (such as only a female can be a woman) which do nothing to improve their lives but only hurts other people. That's no different than straight couples fighting against same sex marriage. The -I got mine but I don't want you to be able to get yours- attitude is unacceptable no matter who is doing it.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 18, 2011, 11:52:52 PM
Here's my thing:

I preach Stealth Transitioning because I'm an actor, author, media host, musician, activist, consultant, and I once had dreams of being a teacher in Public Schools.

Again, do YOU HAVE sources to back up these claims because at the present time, I really do not believe you were any of these things.

Unless you can provide us with a source proving that you were an actor, media host, musician, activist, consultant, etc etc I have to call you out on this.

Your job title and background experiences as well as your statistical and expert sources changes every single week.

You may seem like you are trying to help people on these boards but you are really creating discord by your contraversal comments since you joined.

Please, show us sources that you were all of these things.

The biggest thing in my book (far beyond passing, being nice, etc) is a person's integrity. I think you are falsely credentialing yourself to make yourself look more believable to people but it is only burying you deeper in the muck and mire.

Also, you mentioned  you are being "watched" because people love your posts. Actually "watched" means you are doing things contrary to the rules and terms of service that you agreed upon following when you created an account here. It's not a good thing to have "watched" on your profile.

Look, you have your own convictions and anyone can appreciate individual convictions but when you start preaching your convictions to try to make them convictions upon other people, then that is morally wrong...especially if your convictions have a tendency to go against the norm.

And your statement about people who don't pass usually are in Pride Parades? Totally not true:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.static.flickr.com%2F6015%2F5964757174_b31dd250fc_z.jpg&hash=331faa5e104eb82802492e9303dafc9c7bcd3a95)
That's me in one of several pride parades where I carried the Human Rights Campaign flag. I think I pass just fine and I never give up the opportunity to be in a parade.

Again, what you see as factual are merely stereotypical responses based on your experience. Your experiences does not constitute mass reality.

Again, sources on your many jobs. Thanks!

Quote from: Miniar on July 19, 2011, 09:18:26 AM
Oh dear...
I'm sorry hun, but I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of what you've said here... again.
The problem isn't with "stealth transitioning" the problem is with "preach".
Yes, you are preaching. I doubt you realize that's what you're doing, but you are.
The thing is, no matter how much you tell other people that unless they do things your way they aren't "really" a transsexual you are not right. You don't have the right to tell other people how to label themselves, you don't have the right to dictate anyone else's identity or transition and you certainly do NOT have the right to talk down to those that make different choices than you do.
This is not caused by your appearance, it's caused by prejudice and misinformation.
Yes, changing your appearance will help you get out of the fires of prejudice and misinformation, but it does nothing to put those fires out.
I can understand that there are those that don't have the strength to face these fires and just want to live their lives, and there's nothing wrong with that, but most of those people don't openly "mock" those who face the fires which again, is something you do.

A little respect goes a long way.
Just in case you're thinking you might argue against being called on your mocking, here it is.
You suggest that people who don't pass belong to an "unrealistic" "identity appearance" and have the gall to call them "Andre the Giant". You are perpetuating transmysoginy. You are perpetuating inequality. You are perpetuating misinformation. You are being incredibly rude and self-righteous.

Just because "you" feel that a person doesn't look "right" does not give you any right to compare them to "andre the giant" or call their appearance "unrealistic".
Every human being should be allowed to be themselves. If that means they look in a way that "you" feel is unattractive, then you should just accept that, it's NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
And who's fault is that?
The person who "can't pass" or society's for being so fixated on appearance and gender binary and gender roles and puritan and ignorant views of the human sex, sexuality, and gender?
Secondly, you should come over here, to Iceland, where trans people in any stage of transition pursue what life they want. Period.
We have a high profile trans woman, who's open about her transition and her history, who's been featured as a model in several of our magazines and is frequently on telly and so on.
A non-transitioning maab (male assigned at birth) gender-fluid person (presenting as "mostly" female) is active in politics and I voted for them to participate in rewriting the Icelandic constitution not too long ago. They've also been on telly and in newspapers.
Etc, etc, etc..
This however is not the case 'round here.
So, think about it, is the problem the appearance? or the country?
Yeah, hi there.
You've met me before. I'm the person who likes to pick apart your posts when they're rude and very inaccurate.
I'm a very passable trans man.
I'm 6'2, post-chest-surgery, over a year and a half on T, deep voiced, approx 200lbs (mostly muscle), and those who "don't know" just can't guess.
I'm very active in my local gender, sex, and sexuality minority group. This means Trans, Gay, Bi, Lesbian, Pansexual, Asexual, etc, etc, etc, etc, people.
It's got NOTHING to do with whether I pass or not and EVERYTHING to do with the fact that I want to see equality in my life. It's where politics come in as a passion for me.
Again, "where you live", not here.
I'll ask you once more, you think it's their apprearance? or the country? (Hint, it's the country.)
"realistic, attractive" image.
What is considered attractive changes through time.
Also, this just isn't true.
You know who's most likely to get hired these days?
The person with the best qualifications to do the job in question.

Also, since acting was mentioned..
Look up Michael Berryman for example, or DJ Qualls, or Marty Feldman, or Clint Howard, or Shane MacGowan, or Lyle Lovett (who by the by married Julia Roberts), or Iggy Pop, Courtney Love, Donatella Versace, Amy Winehouse, Kelly Osbourne, Nancy Pelosi, Kim McGuire, Rosi de Palma, Sandra Bernhard, John C. Reilly, Steve Buscemi, Paz de la Huerta, Camilla Parker-Bowles, Janet Reno, Kathy Burke, Rhea Perlman, Helen Clark.....

I'm not suggesting any of these people are "ugly", what I'm pointing out that these are people who are not considered "traditionally" beautiful, but they make up for it with ideals, skills, talents, humor, etc.
Suggesting that pretty helps may be right, but putting this much weight on pretty is dangerous at best.
I am marching in Pride, NOT because I don't pass, but because I value what it stands for, I want to support that fight for equality, because it's "right".

Also, when I was 6, I didn't have the information required to make an informed decision to follow "any" career, how did you?
I disagree.
Everyone should have the freedom to make "their" choice. You should be free to make "your" choice. Other people should be free to make theirs.
Without us running 'round and devaluing their identity because they didn't make the same choice as we did!
Excuse me, but did you just say that those that make different choices than you do, taking their physical ability into account, just lack the "mental freedom" to do things your way? Because if you just did, boy was that self-righteous and horribly rude!

Secondly, The suggestion that those with "mental freedom" don't let their bodies have any control over their choices is utterly disgusting for another reason.
For example, I have fibromyalgia.
I am dealing with chronic pain and chronic fatigue every day of my life and probably will be for the rest of my life.
I am in pain. Too much pain to do any, for example, "heavy running".
Does this mean that when I go "aww, I'd love to, but I'm just too effing exhausted right now" that I'm lacking "the mental freedom" to get up and run a marathon?
Seriously.
Think before you speak.
This is a leading question suggesting that anyone that disagrees (like me) with you on the reasons for why they participate will just be brushed off as lacking brevity by you.
It's really disrespectful.
So, why aren't you working on your career fields?
I'm working on mine, or, as much as I'm physically able, the pain and fatigue take a lot out of me.
Here we agree. If a person needs hormones or surgery to feel comfortable in their skin, and they need to feel comfortable in their skin to carry on living and pursuing their dreams, then yes, they should get that help!
That is a bold faced lie right there.
You know why you're watched.
You were told.
Excuse me, but no one here has suggested that medical transition is not something to strive towards. What people have been arguing against is your authoratative tone and exclusivism.

Go re-read the site rules. Susan wrote them. They are the reason why you're watched.
No one here is arguing that a medical transition is not a valued or positive option for the people who choose it. No one.
Er, no, that's not what you said at all.
I can quote your original post if you want.
The law of the US is irrelevant as this is an international site, but even if it wasn't, the law of the US is not a great tool to examine what's morally right or wrong.

NO ONE is arguing that there is anything wrong with medical transition.
HERE is what we're telling you is wrong.
Your definitions.
Your insistence that you're right even when you're wrong.
Your attitude that you can tell people who's transgender/transsexual and who isn't.

Get your facts straight.

I think that Iggy Pop is handsome for a man who is in his sixties now and has lived the life that he did.    In his pre heroin days he was a striking looking man.