Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Not to be sexist but it has been like that for me.....  Maybe you had a different experiences dont feel shy just share and vote to that always helps find out the average belief :D :D

IME girls/females/women are a lot more accepting to us TGs then are cismales.
It is one very big difference in deed, and I have a theory about it.

If cismales are not so secure in their sexuality (and many are NOT)  they get threatened by us by feeling possibly attracted and then get this fear of being gay --- OMG!
So to handle the situation they react offish and reject us.

It takes quite some time longer for THEM to feel OK with us.
I seen it over and again.

Best with them is, not to dress really sexy and be as natural as possible without getting dragged into their cismale "THING".
They initially tend to do this, more so if they knew us pre-transition, and then turn around and tell us that we just a guy in girls cloths, a perv or freak and such.

It can be tricky to maintain some cismales as friends, that's for sure.

Axelle

I have found myself a lot more comfortable coming out to girls also (and generally seek them as friends over males). Basically, if they see me as a guy... they probably see me as potentially attracted to them (so they are guarded, but generally friendly as women are). Me being gay or trans or anything else is probably just a relief for them from needing to have to keep their guard up and the natural sexual tension. If they see me as a guy, my joking around or being friendly or even just interest is probably seen as flirting (even if that isn't the first thing they think, they still would have it in the back of their mind).... but, once they realize I don't have any interest, they can relax. And, then the conversation can move from "a guy and girl talking" into "2 girls talking" , where we have lots in common (for example, I chat with girls a lot about diets and the "ohh I need to lose 10 pounds" thing... something I'm not sure many "guys" do or focus on....and definitely not chat about it with a girl their same age unless they are very close).

Now males on the other hand have the exact opposite issue. Once they find out I am more feminine (and date guys), suddenly me being "just a guy" turns into an uncomfortable "what if he is attracted to me?!" type of situation. Suddenly, my natural playfulness and joking nature goes from just funny and relaxed...into possibly "flirty". They realize they don't have as much as they thought in common with me. ..while I would go along with their jokes about women before, them knowing that I can't really relate suddenly turns those moments into a little more awkward. ((For example, I have a friend I was hanging out with before he knew I was trans. We were joking around and somehow we started talking about "how much would it cost for you to do ~insert whatever~" ... after some joking around, he asks how much it would cost for me to sleep with a guy! I replied with a much lower number than the "bazzillions of dollars!!!" type of answer a guy would normally give. At the time he just thought I was messing with him, but after I came out to him I was like "Uhhh yea, you asking me that was like me asking how much it would cost for you to sleep with a girl ").

Combine that with the fact that (like axelle posted) men are less secure in their sexuality, suddenly there is a potential for negative reaction or distancing themselves from me.

I haven't actually had many negative responses (the only negative one so far is from my father).... then again, I have been extremely careful about who I come out to and only have a handful of people so far that know.

Right now, if a girl asked me what was up... I would be honest and wouldn't mind telling them. If a guy asked me what was going on, I would be a bit more cautious and try to sort out what type of person / reaction he would have before revealing myself.

Quote from: LilKittyCatZoey on July 21, 2011, 11:16:16 AM
Not to be sexist but it has been like that for me.....  Maybe you had a different experiences dont feel shy just share and vote to that always helps find out the average belief :D :D

That's because guys are more observant. Girls don't usually read that we are TS but boys can see the difference more easily. But it's not a gender issue as to who is more excepting, some guys are excepting and some are not, some girls are excepting and some are not also!

Quote from: Rabbit on July 21, 2011, 12:04:31 PM
I have found myself a lot more comfortable coming out to girls also (and generally seek them as friends over males). Basically, if they see me as a guy... they probably see me as potentially attracted to them (so they are guarded, but generally friendly as women are). Me being gay or trans or anything else is probably just a relief for them from needing to have to keep their guard up and the natural sexual tension. If they see me as a guy, my joking around or being friendly or even just interest is probably seen as flirting (even if that isn't the first thing they think, they still would have it in the back of their mind).... but, once they realize I don't have any interest, they can relax. And, then the conversation can move from "a guy and girl talking" into "2 girls talking" , where we have lots in common (for example, I chat with girls a lot about diets and the "ohh I need to lose 10 pounds" thing... something I'm not sure many "guys" do or focus on....and definitely not chat about it with a girl their same age unless they are very close).

Now males on the other hand have the exact opposite issue. Once they find out I am more feminine (and date guys), suddenly me being "just a guy" turns into an uncomfortable "what if he is attracted to me?!" type of situation. Suddenly, my natural playfulness and joking nature goes from just funny and relaxed...into possibly "flirty". They realize they don't have as much as they thought in common with me. ..while I would go along with their jokes about women before, them knowing that I can't really relate suddenly turns those moments into a little more awkward. ((For example, I have a friend I was hanging out with before he knew I was trans. We were joking around and somehow we started talking about "how much would it cost for you to do ~insert whatever~" ... after some joking around, he asks how much it would cost for me to sleep with a guy! I replied with a much lower number than the "bazzillions of dollars!!!" type of answer a guy would normally give. At the time he just thought I was messing with him, but after I came out to him I was like "Uhhh yea, you asking me that was like me asking how much it would cost for you to sleep with a girl ").

Combine that with the fact that (like axelle posted) men are less secure in their sexuality, suddenly there is a potential for negative reaction or distancing themselves from me.

I haven't actually had many negative responses (the only negative one so far is from my father).... then again, I have been extremely careful about who I come out to and only have a handful of people so far that know.

Right now, if a girl asked me what was up... I would be honest and wouldn't mind telling them. If a guy asked me what was going on, I would be a bit more cautious and try to sort out what type of person / reaction he would have before revealing myself.

I  agree i mean their is a lot i did trying to be a boy which made me sad but yea. its amazing because my bff i can compliment her and tell her i love her and its just normal :D :D i can be me and not be flirting, that alone makes me feel like me  :D :D but on the other hand i had this amazing guy friend ever and so i decided to tell him :'( :'( :'( :'( it made him hit me and he hasnt talked to me since, he said i am gay and all those time we were so close now make him feel ill :'( :'( :'( :'( defo's for me boys lack understanding

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 21, 2011, 12:16:54 PM
That's because guys are more observant. Girls don't usually read that we are TS but boys can see the difference more easily. But it's not a gender issue as to who is more excepting, some guys are excepting and some are not, some girls are excepting and some are not also!

i have lost every guy i told but been accepted and now treated as a girl by every girl i have told. so for me girls are more understanding

Though, I personally have been pretty well accepted by both the men and women I have told thus far, the truth is, the way society at least works, men tend to be less accepting about things involving gender or sexual issues. Likely it is the insecurity of being forced to comply much more into a binary world than women are.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 21, 2011, 12:16:54 PM
That's because guys are more observant. Girls don't usually read that we are TS but boys can see the difference more easily. But it's not a gender issue as to who is more excepting, some guys are excepting and some are not, some girls are excepting and some are not also!

I don't agree. I've found women to generally be much more observant than men.

Men are way more accepting in my opinion.

I don't have many girl friends because they all seem to be insecure and catty.

[$0.02]

Acceptance is a matter of understanding. Transitioning MtF at the workplace... the least accepting people are the guys (not that they aren't accepting - they've been real dears about the whole thing, and I truly appreciate how they've been). There are three of them, and for them, it's not that they don't wish me the best, but they just don't understand. They really like being men (something which I don't truly understand). On the other hand, the twenty+ women I work with are all accepting, and I imagine it's because they understand better - they really like being women, and they would be very unhappy with being mtf.

[/$0.02]

In my opinion, women are more diverse in their sexual orientation and taste than men, exactly the same way that women's fashion is more diverse than men's. Little girls tend to take care of others while boys play with toy weapons. In my experience, women tend to accomodate me while men try to analyze and understand me.

Barbie~~

Hmm, I haven't really noticed much difference.
I have one guy who calls me a ->-bleeped-<- and picks on me, and one girl who asks me every single day why I can't be a girl, what my identity is, etc. (I think she has a bad memory.)

It seems like girls are more likely to ask me in-depth questions about my identity and such (although some can be shallow) and most of them are good with it. Guys tend to not ask a lot of questions. For instance, I was walking by a crowd of people once after school, and they called out hi to me with my birthname, and I corrected them. One asked if I was a girl, I smirked and said no, then they called me over for more in-depth research. XD The girls asked a bit about trans-issues, whereas with the guys it was just, "I'm a guy, I was just born with a condition known as transsexualism that makes me look like a girl. I'm also gay." "Oh, okay man, that's cool. -fist bump-" Hahaa.

Although this has just been a general experience. I have had guys want to know in-depth about transgender things, and girls who don't ask a lot/focus way too much on sex. This, from a girl I liked --> "So, you don't have testicles?" "No." "Oooh! You wouldn't be able to get me pregnant, then! Awesome!" "o///o;;"  :D

In my experience, the only men who've been weird about me transitioning have in common that they have weird or unhealthy relationships with their mothers, so they're just uncomfortable with "losing me to the women's side". One of my ex-girlfriends did mourn me getting rid of my body fur, as she liked me furry ::). But mostly it's not about trans issues so much as it's just people in general being destabilised by change in general. It's true that women on the whole accept me wanting to "be" one of them, whereas men can't understand unless they have some of their own genderqueeriosity going on.

By the way, your poll is a bit wonky - I get how men/women can be neither more accepting than each other, but they can't be both more accepting than each other :).

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 21, 2011, 12:35:22 PM
I don't agree. I've found women to generally be much more observant than men.

I agree.

If you are being 'read' by men then...

Actually I have had better luck with men than with women.

im not gonna vote cause im assuming its a poll for MTF's but just wanted to chime in what I have noticed as a trans guy.

I am more comfortable coming out to guys, although I pretty much live steath and i dont tell people anymore, but back when I needed to tell people, or they would just assume I was female, I always felt better telling guys. The way I see it, you tell a guy that you are FTM, they understand what its like to be a guy, they know why you want to "become"(thats how they see it) one.  but you tell a girl, sometimes I think they feel offended by it.

Quote from: Silas on July 21, 2011, 05:04:58 PM
The girls asked a bit about trans-issues, whereas with the guys it was just, "I'm a guy, I was just born with a condition known as transsexualism that makes me look like a girl. I'm also gay." "Oh, okay man, that's cool. -fist bump-" Hahaa.

ive noticed this too, except for once when a super brainless annoying gay guy kept asking if I had a penis and balls, and if I had had the surgery, he was so rude and dumb, i told him I only had testicles. he believed me lol, such an idiot

From my experiences, I would say that girls are, on average, more open than guys are. I think it has mostly to do with socialization.

Usually, when a girl harbors transmisogynstic feelings, it's because we make them feel insecure with their femininity. They think, "How dare that MAN even try to be as pretty/feminine as me?" It kind of shakes the very foundation on which they stand, so to speak. I find this to not be very common, and when girls harbor these types of feelings against trans womyn, I notice they are usually harboring lots of internalized misogyny.

It's a lot more complicated with guys. We make them feel insecure with their masculinity in a very big way. The reason why MTFs are so demonized by our culture at large is not only because their forsake their own masculinity, but also because they forsake the masculinity of straight men. The patriarchal society holds male heterosexuality to a sacred status. Men who are socialized into toxic masculinity are socialized to see womyn as a commodity that defines their machismo. The more the womyn meets patriachal beauty standards (thin, white, cisgender, conventionally feminine, etc.), the more "value" she has in terms of defining the man's machismo. If a womyn somehow fails to meet those beauty standards, she takes away some of his machismo. This is why overweight, non-white, butch, etc. womyn are so demonized. To put it from your stereotypical toxic masculine frat boy perspective: "Look at him, all the chicks he's scoring are ugly fat chicks. Something's wrong with him, he must be gay." When trans womyn are involved, it's a lot more extreme, because it's not that he MIGHT be gay, but rather, that he IS gay. From the toxic masculine perspective, being gay is the ultimate failure of machismo: gay men are unable to to objectify womyn into a commodity or object status, and are thus unable to live up to one of the central expectations of the toxic masculine gender role. This is why trans womyn inspire such intense fear and hatred among men who are heavily socialized into toxic masculinity. From their perspective, trans womyn "trick" them into being gay, and take away their valued toxic masculine status. The reason why hate crimes happen is because once that happens, the only way they can gain back that toxic masculine status is through violence.

Now, even though all men are exposed to toxic masculine socialization, there is a huge variation in how much they embrace it. There are plenty of men who see past all that BS and therefore are totally accepting of trans womyn. However, if you compare the extent to which men are expected to conform to toxic masculinity versus the extent to which womyn are expected to conform to toxic femininity, men are FAR more pressured to conform toxic masculinity. These differences in socialization are why I believe that girls are, on average, more accepting than guys.

Girls (woman) have seemed more accepting, certainly much less personally challenged by my sexual identity than boys (men). The males that have been confronted by my issue have fleetingly discussed it then move on rapidly, and perhaps achieving great distance as soon as possible, taking it as a personal challenge. Females are more communicative,  interested and supportive. I think female socialization does have something to do with it. Some individuals are ... well, individuals.

Susan Kay

I would say that girls/women are more accepting in general.  However, this must be qualified by saying that natal females can say one thing to your face and quite another behind your back.
They greatly value co-operation, friendship, and they fear being disliked.  So they can accept you to your face and talk about you behind your back at the same time.  The eminent Sociolinguist Deborah Tannen has written that genetic females have a strong desire to be liked and genetic males equally desire status; that is being feared and/or respected.   A man wouldn't care if he was disliked as long as others showed respect towards him.   A woman would never alienate herself from the group to seek power for its own sake, that is unthinkable.

Quote from: Susan Kay on July 21, 2011, 09:44:06 PM
Girls (woman) have seemed more accepting, certainly much less personally challenged by my sexual identity than boys (men). The males that have been confronted by my issue have fleetingly discussed it then move on rapidly, and perhaps achieving great distance as soon as possible, taking it as a personal challenge. Females are more communicative,  interested and supportive. I think female socialization does have something to do with it. Some individuals are ... well, individuals.

Susan Kay

Deborah Tannen has said that men will drop a subject if they feel that the subject being mentioned is perhaps too personal.  It is a way of being respectful, they are giving the other person the decision whether to talk about this or not.   Women, writes Tannen make the mistake of thinking that men are not interested in them or their problem when they do this.

All great opinions girls;D and boys thanks was nice from that side to ;D thanks for voting every body  :D :D :D

Dear TheAetherealMeadow,
may I congratulate you for a very well formulated precis on this girl/boy (actually more male/female) acceptance issue.
Male/female, because of the socializing that is far from complete when still at boy/girl age.

Thank you for this well thought out post,
Axelle

Quote from: LilKittyCatZoey on July 21, 2011, 11:16:16 AM
Not to be sexist but it has been like that for me.....  Maybe you had a different experiences dont feel shy just share and vote to that always helps find out the average belief :D :D

i find that both genders can accept you just the same or will not accept you. It all depends on the individual.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 21, 2011, 12:16:54 PM
That's because guys are more observant.

I have to disagree. Women (usually in their teens to 20s) can clock you while a man have no idea

      I think girls are more accepting of this issue and to be honest I feel I can be much more open around them then guys. I admit sometimes I feel uneasy being around certain guys, like if he does not like what he is hearing is he going to be violent? kinda scares me sometimes  :(

This is one reason I'm a big stealth person.

Basically, guys are complex. Right away, people assume that guys want nothing to do with gays, trans, creeps, and weirdos because guys are "anti-gay and not confident in their sexuality" but that's really not even anything near the truth. In fact, guys are simply scared of being seen with people who are considered losers. Guys pride themselves on being status symbols, they do not like human beings in general who are weak, nerdy, or unpopular. With that, I've seen many straight guys hang around the most obvious gay guys, even guys who are wearing pink and covered in make-up, as long as a particular group of people find the particular gender bender to be "cool" or "hot". A big factor in this usually seems to be plain out wether the gender bender has a high confidence and wether or not he's pretty darn physically attractive in some sort of somehow-mainstream, media-promoted accepted way that establishes the gender bender as "cool". (ex. Chris Crocker, Jeffree Star, that whole deal.)

Now, that just goes for the men who care about status and who they build their groups on, on the other end of the park bench, you have geeky hometown shy guys who'll literally accept the friendship of anyone who comes their way because hanging out at the public library all day long is just getting to be a drag.

It's really the same concept as an experiment I once did; for those here who have eyes, everyone knows I always talk about suffering from an extreme Acromegaloid facial appearance, and that no matter wether it was in a female role or male role, I always had people constantly bully me and look down upon me as a "freak", "caveman", "uncool", "ugly", or even "stupid", because of the characteristics of my facial condition. It was a universal thing and every single person treated me that way almost as soon as they met me. It never failed, no matter how many new people I tried to meet, no matter how many people I tried to approach. However, I one day decided that I would go out and try to randomly talk to some youths my age like I always try to do, but that this time, I would wear an entertaining mask that covered the problematic areas of my face. I dressed all up and made it look quite endearing.

Not one single person (including a couple people whom I were already close friends with) used a single derogatory tone with me that day. Even the friends who knew me forever seemed to have completely forgotten their rude attitudes toward me and suddenly seemed to see me as a new person, and all the new people I managed to chat with were all smiles and sunshine. Not one negative comment concerning a face that you couldn't see, not one harsh tone, not one whisper of "Ew, c'mon Janet let's go, he looks creepy..."

It was just surprising. People treated me with fellow dignity, like I was actually a human being. And it was because, quite frankly, with a mask on, people imagined that I look like a normal human being without a growth condition of the face, and thus had no negative pre-judgements. And yet with it off, people treat me like crap. And as a control, I truly don't even act different; I'm not really an expressive person either way, I'm just mature and thoughtful. Nothing uncontrolled in the experiment. I wasn't moping and crying with the mask off, and smiling with it on. It was just a truly shocking experiment of mine and why I'm a big supporter of a "If you can't beat em, join em...at least to some extent, and then show who you really are once you make that first good impression." type mentality about life.

I have found acceptance from both men and women, but I voted 'women' because their acceptance has been more openly expressed, even enthusiastic.  That may be because they knew me before transition, and can see that I am happier.
The guys have generally responded with a , "whatever you need to do to be happy is ok" attitude, whereas the women have been more welcoming and shared things a lot more than I expected.

Karen.

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 21, 2011, 12:35:22 PM
I don't agree. I've found women to generally be much more observant than men.

Men look at women in a different way, a lustful way sometimes, and they can see if something is not quite right very quickly, like your body shape, the size of your boobs if they are too small or if your butt is too small. Women are less interested, therefore less observant than men. Women are more friendly and will chat about personal things and have no idea I am TS.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on July 22, 2011, 05:35:03 AM
Men look at women in a different way, a lustful way sometimes, and they can see if something is not quite right very quickly, like your body shape, the size of your boobs if they are too small or if your butt is too small. Women are less interested, therefore less observant than men. Women are more friendly and will chat about personal things and have no idea I am TS.

body shapes, your boobs and your butt can be made to look feminine through clothing, surgery and prosthetic tho. Younger women have an uncannier sense of seeing through that (unless you have had FFS or transitioned like at 14 lol).

I work at the mall and I never been clocked by a guy. I get clocked about once every three weeks by a girl and its always girls who are latino and in their early 20s. Girls have an amazing trandar device

Quote from: Annah on July 22, 2011, 10:21:18 AM
body shapes, your boobs and your butt can be made to look feminine through clothing, surgery and prosthetic tho. Younger women have an uncannier sense of seeing through that (unless you have had FFS or transitioned like at 14 lol).

I work at the mall and I never been clocked by a guy. I get clocked about once every three weeks by a girl and its always girls who are latino and in their early 20s. Girls have an amazing trandar device

how can they clock you? you scream womyn not male gosh if they clock you thats scary

Quote from: LilKittyCatZoey on July 22, 2011, 10:50:37 AM
how can they clock you? you scream womyn not male gosh if they clock you thats scary

It's something they should air on the next paranormal show lol. I can't explain it personally. It's always a latino girl in her 20s that clocks me. When they do, they don't outright say anything...they just have this weird look like they are really trying to figure me out lol.

My therapist had told me there may be a correlation between girls (cis gendered) who have a poor self image of themselves who can usually clock the the most passable women (even with FFS).

Women in their 30s onwards still have an important view on their self image but it isn't chronic or go to unhealthy means (the majority) compared to girls in their late teens and early 20s. The girls who have a rather obsessive view of their body image is so good at picking out flaws and details in themselves, that they can do it in no time with even the most passable trans.

What my therapist said made a lotta sense. I cannot scientifically validate it, but my experiences with the girls certainly validates my therapist's belief.

Quote from: Annah on July 22, 2011, 10:21:18 AM
body shapes, your boobs and your butt can be made to look feminine through clothing, surgery and prosthetic tho. Younger women have an uncannier sense of seeing through that (unless you have had FFS or transitioned like at 14 lol).

I work at the mall and I never been clocked by a guy. I get clocked about once every three weeks by a girl and its always girls who are latino and in their early 20s. Girls have an amazing trandar device

I've rarely been clocked by guys but many TS's do get clocked. I'm not sure why I don't, possibly because I have small features? and I've been transitioning for over 12 years and started taking birth control pills long before that. I'm quite comfortable with myself and dress very casually and rarely wear make up. Younger girls never seem to read me or ever take any notice of me.

Women sense things other's can't, but I think A LOT of it has to do with Body Language.

Quote from: Tyler on July 22, 2011, 07:17:24 PM
Women sense things other's can't, but I think A LOT of it has to do with Body Language.

It might also have to do with hand and feet size?    I saw a programme about Princess Diana's wedding dress and they showed her ballet flats which were a British size 10(American size 11).   Diana had big feet, but her feet conformed to the very narrow foot typical of genetic women.   Genetic males have a broad foot.

It could have something to do with body proportions, but I tend to think that it has more to do with the way people move around and act. Some transgirls seem to still use the male mentality, speaking down to women in certain tones and such. I think women pick up on that.

Perhaps some are disposed to "clock" others as different, so may clock a lot of females because of deciding they have large feet or hands, not real feminine appearing facial features, a lower range voice, being tall, or any other percieved clue. And perhaps they are wrong more often then they are right.

Others are not disposed to clock others as trans. Without bragging about my non judgemental nature, I do not think I ever clocked another trans person, until I attended my first support group meeting. I am the type of person that has never been too worried other people fitting my conception of what it takes to be human.

A blank look back at them in response to clocking attitudes is a good defense - most cis-woman don't very quickly pick up on being clocked.

Susan Kay

I have gained four awesome new girlfriends, and every one of my male friends stuck around. Equal acceptance.

New people are either oblivious or don't care. I only really get to socialize with other parents and scientists though, and I spend most of my spare time around the playground chasing my insane baby.

Edit: The language of your poll seems to suggest that I choose neither, as neither one is more accepting than the other. (Of course, I'm not huge on grammar anyway, and I may be wrong)

Within my family, I think women have been slightly more accepting, although I have some super awesome uncles that reached out to me when my father decided he wanted not much to do with me.

At my school, I feel like there's been more girls that have an approachable attitude toward me and my being trans, but then I found out that a male student I didn't even know that well stood up for me behind my back (made me think he was the coolest guy ever when I found out). And the nastiest, most blatantly rude transphobic person I've encountered so far was a female instructor.

I'd say there's a lot more than just sex in deciding whether a person will be accepting. Being open-minded is probably way more important.

Quote from: EmmaM on July 23, 2011, 01:31:38 AM
I have gained four awesome new girlfriends, and every one of my male friends stuck around. Equal acceptance.

New people are either oblivious or don't care. I only really get to socialize with other parents and scientists though, and I spend most of my spare time around the playground chasing my insane baby.

Edit: The language of your poll seems to suggest that I choose neither, as neither one is more accepting than the other. (Of course, I'm not huge on grammar anyway, and I may be wrong)

I think it sound like you find both more accepting  :D :D sorry the grammar is my fault i never have been great with English

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on July 22, 2011, 07:26:52 PM

It might also have to do with hand and feet size?    I saw a programme about Princess Diana's wedding dress and they showed her ballet flats which were a British size 10(American size 11).   Diana had big feet, but her feet conformed to the very narrow foot typical of genetic women.   Genetic males have a broad foot.

Wow!  :o I didn't know that! Princess Diana's feet were size 10!  I thought my feet were big at size 7!

i'm not mtf but I think girls often turn out more understanding,
I also have alot of accepting guys, but I tend to get way more annoying questions from guys.

I am not really qualified to say whether men or women are more accepting, as I don't know any males.  The only females that I am in regular daily contact with are my mother, sister and her friends.   Naturally my family are pro me, and my sister's friends either care for me or want to remain friends with her.

I say girls are

As an ftm, I've found guys tend to be more understanding and accepting than girls.  The girls tend to be horrified.  When it's come up about me being trans, I've had more than one girl be like "OMG, you want a penis?!"  They can't understand why I don't want to get pregnant, why I want a hysterectomy, why I want to get the chest appendages cut off.

Perhaps males are more accepting of FTMs because their default attitude is 'who wouldn't want to be male?'  Perhaps females welcome mtfs on the whole because they think 'who wouldn't want to be a girl?'

Genetic males might be less welcoming to FTMs who say that they are gay.   Heterosexual FTMs will find greater acceptance.   I wonder if genetic females automatically assume that we mtfs are attracted to men?

I have found both my male and female friends to be equally accepting...obviously I can't see inside their heads so I don't know exactly what they're thinking, but then who does.

On the subject of being clocked/read/whatever you want to call it...unless you are clearly mis-gendered the the chances are the person giving you an odd look hasn't clocked/read/whatever you want to call it you. There are lots and lots of reasons why people give other people funny looks and 95% have absolutely nothing to do about gender...I think that the more you worry about being clocked/read/what ever you want to call it, the more likely you are to react to an odd look in a way that really causes the person looking to re-evaluate what they see and you then end up being mis-gendered.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on July 24, 2011, 04:43:12 PM
Perhaps males are more accepting of FTMs because their default attitude is 'who wouldn't want to be male?'  Perhaps females welcome mtfs on the whole because they think 'who wouldn't want to be a girl?'

Very good point.

Also, perhaps, just perhaps you understand, and ignoring potential sexual partner feelings, M-2-Fs are more accepting of girls and F-2-Ms are more accepting of boys for buds, thus their accepting aura is more likely to attract those persons.

Susan Kay

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 21, 2011, 12:35:22 PM
I don't agree. I've found women to generally be much more observant than men.

this a million trillion times. absolutely in my own experience and everyone i have talked to, women are more observant. i can walk into a mens room with visible breasts and not be noticed, but get funny looks in the womens by having short hair alone, as if they're trying to "figure me out".

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on July 24, 2011, 04:43:12 PM
Perhaps males are more accepting of FTMs because their default attitude is 'who wouldn't want to be male?'

the first person i came out to's first words were "welcome to the club bro"

I dont know where to put my answer on this cuz so for out of the ppl i have came out to the only one i have got a neg response from is my x girlfriend like when i got my navel done awhile back she is and still is the only one that has said anything neg about it and her fav thing to say is your weird or thats weird and i get it form her all the time but i mostly ignore her or leave when she starts talking to me like that when we have talked about it she say she was really hurt that i hid it from her for three years and really the only thing i have been able to say to her is i hid it from myself and family for 23 years its not like i was just hidding it form her i just wasnt ready to come out till i did this is also part (mainly) the reason she left me

My experiences...It feels like it ultimately comes down to the free-thinkingness, not always the gender of a cisgender.
My transgender friend warned me very early into my decision to accept my transsexuality that women are bad because they can pick me out as a transsexual and because that things will go down from there... D:! In my cisgender friend group, when I told them I'm glad that they were helpful, or something like that, they told me to be careful and that plenty of women are really unaccepting of transsexuals, and I just had a shot of luck to end up with a group that wasn't like that.  My friend in VA knew it was coming, and has a distressing fascination with how a mentality gets affected by transition. XD
As far as my male friends went, all of them were pretty accepting up-front and everything.  If anything, it's been something to open a better comfort zone, as much as I don't do any crossdressing or anything at my own expense... D:
Almost all the women at my work who know have been pretty cool about it, a couple found it interesting but they've been at least ok with it.  The men have not been gossiped to, so the couple that overheard about it have a very 'go for what you want' attitude.

On the other hand, it's been pretty much all women who haven't taken to me well so far.  My mother was of course the most significant woman hurt by this and at first was very mean, but when she was calmed down she realized how she reacted and apologized, but she's clearly uncomfortable with it and the next few weeks are gonna be preeeetty rough.  One of my managers takes me under her wing as a mother-figure in the workplace, and she reacted pretty badly too.  Finally, there's my ex-girlfriend.   She might be a denying FtM but she venomously opposes the idea of me transitioning despite 'being' best friends with an MtF already. (I have a state of disbelief that she's honestly so friendly with that MtF though.)  My transsexual friend and her teacher, both women, have not really accepted much of how I want to be as being a woman, mostly in the sense of romance-related.

And of course, finally me, yeah? x3 Even before accepting my transition, I have really been welcoming of whatever walk of life someone chooses.  It's just always been the right thing to do.  ---I always had a small half-joke that I could befriend a serial killer who wasn't busy trying to kill me, even.

Quote from: RyanThomas on July 24, 2011, 08:42:04 PM
the first person i came out to's first words were "welcome to the club bro"

Haha, knock the 'bro' off the end and you have the exact response I got from one of my female friends. :D Methinks Princess of Hearts might have a point.

I've experienced pretty much equal acceptance from my friends, with both males and females treating me well. I'd say on the whole the girls have taken more of an active interest in my transition, while the guys have been a little more "Cool, no problem! Now let's talk about something else" about it, but neither reaction is really better than the other. Though it's nice when people take an interest in something that will be a big part of my life for the forseeable future, it can be just as nice to have people not make a big deal out of it, and to be met with nothing but a change of name and pronouns and some subtle changes of conduct. I really couldn't ask for more of either my male or female friends, and though there have definitely been differences in their reactions, all that matters is that both have shown complete acceptance, and no end of willingness to treat me as a girl.

In terms of people I don't know so well, though... I've definitely seen more acceptance from girls. Boys I don't know generally range from showing begrudging tolerance to looking at me like I'm a freak, but I'm yet to have anything but warm, positive reactions from girls. When I came out the news spread like wildfire around our department, and I had tons of girls in my university that I had hardly spoken to before adding me on Facebook just to send me messages of support and offers of assistance with everything from makeup to bra shopping. :) Later on, when my friends organised a little coming out party on my behalf, a good eleven or twelve of said girls came along offering presents and hearty hugs. I'd be lying if I said I've been met with outright hostility from boys I don't know on any more than a few occasions, but the vast majority of unexpected helping hands and comforting words I've been offered since coming out have come from girls.

Girls maybe more accepting of us than males, but have you encountered Christian conservative Republican women?   I have encountered them only online and they are not accepting at all, at least they weren't to me.

So far I've not met anyone who was openly hostile, but women tend to be more understanding of it. Men tend to be more confused.

Both have been equally accepting as I prepare to move along with my transition, I will say that I inherently feel more comfortable coming out to my female family and friends... but both have been awesome.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on July 29, 2011, 04:31:24 PM
Girls maybe more accepting of us than males, but have you encountered Christian conservative Republican women?   I have encountered them only online and they are not accepting at all, at least they weren't to me.

That's OK, I'm not very accepting of them either!

Susan Kay

I love for FTM to vote in survey posted by MTF but distictions need to be made in tabulations.  I find females "tend" to be more accepting of me than males.  I do find some females must have a bad hair day or just find me disgusting, likewise, I find some males very nice to me.  I also find myself more comfortable expressing myself around females so that I may influence females with my mannerisms.  Today I picked out some floral panties and pretty camis at store and a lady just had a big disarming grin on her face.  I had to smile.  Dudes tend to get annoyed at what appears to be a "dude" doing girly things. 

Now in reverse a pretty girl doing manly things might be a big turnoff for other women and they might say,  "My that girl is acting like a man!"   While guys might say, "Hey this girl is cool and is like one of us!"  Also a FTM might have some trouble relating to women and might share with men.
.......

Another generalization is that females tend to see me as trans and men tend to see me as "super gay"; however this is a generalization as I heard an old man tell his friend there is an old tran when I walked by.
....
Finally one more distinction:  A big liberal city tends to be more accepting than a small rural town.  Wow I have traveled to a small southern town and women at convenience store were very vocal when I entered store.  My goodness did I feel uncomfortable from women of small town.  Men seemed to try to diffuse caddy remarks of women.

r e

Quote from: RyanThomas on July 24, 2011, 08:39:53 PM
this a million trillion times. absolutely in my own experience and everyone i have talked to, women are more observant. i can walk into a mens room with visible breasts and not be noticed, but get funny looks in the womens by having short hair alone, as if they're trying to "figure me out".

In my experience, I've found it to be a personality trait than a male or female trait. There are some men that pick up if anything is amiss while some women seem to be oblivious to it and visa versa. 

It's just that women are more open to commenting on a new haircut or clothes as a way of socializing, and the other stuff they find odd or dislike, is behind a woman's back.  ::) 

Guys do notice women very much, they check a woman out from head to toe, just aren't so interested in clothes or new nails etc. That's the big difference.

It has been my experience that, speaking numerically, women are more accepting.  But the ones that are not, are much more hostile than hostile men.

However, that data may be skewed by women who hate me because I am prettier than they are.  If I was a hag, I might not get that.

Growing up I always had gal pals.  I think they don't have anything to fear from us, as they might from guys.  Even now I have gal pals.  Guys can sense something different about us and I think that it set their teeth on edge, they just don't seem to want to be associated with us as friends.

Hi Gina,
thank you for bringing up that point: ...if women do not like you, they do so with a passion. Thankfully they seem in the minority.

I never had such hostile reactions from non-accepting males, so I really agree with you.

I think you are right it has to do with jealousy, but in my case not with looks, rather with my "place" in life, and the perceived place of theirs.

My son's gf (and mother of his daughter) is such a case. She just hates it when he has a good rapport with me --- I'm always more important then her is her notion. He speaks about 2x a month to me! She acts a complete brat and utter bitch towards me, not easy to deal with for sure.
I think it has more then anything else to do with THEIR own insecurities. Something that WE can't fix.

Edit: Janet,
* they just don't seem to want to be associated with us as friends.*

It's very simple. They're afraid to be seen by themselves AND of course by others as having a gay inclination in being friends with "us".
NERVER MIND being a bf!
The more insecure in their sexuality the more that's the case IME.

Greetings,
Axelle

I have always found it easier to make friends with women than men, even before coming out.  Now that I am starting to come out to some of the people in my life, I'm finding that the women have all been very accepting and supportive, while the men tend to respond with a subconscious shake of the head. "Well....if that's what makes you happy..."  In fact, my female friends frequently respond to the news with a hug and "Oh! That explains so MUCH!"  :o  I guess for all that I have a balding, male-shaped body and am pre-HRT, I don't pass very well as a guy emotionally.

I have not had anyone react poorly yet, but I do expect it with some family members.

I will also agree that, in my experience and from all I've heard frome tg friends, unaccepting women can often be far more vicious than their male counterparts.  Thank goodness they seem to be more the exception than the rule.  :)

from my experience both guys and girls were accepting (maybe I'm just lucky), well I transitioned right before college, so I guess guys by that age are pretty much mature, but I would say girls are a bit more understanding of it

Just a perspective from the FTM side: guys seem a lot easier.

For the 65 five posts it seems one thing is clear               If your a boy=boys accept you more and visa versa, but not always the case

Oh, just wait until you run into one of those "womyn born womyn" types that see you as a threat to all femininity.

Talk about an overreaction to the extreme. ::)

I have chosen, neither

Girls think that we are GAY   >:(

Quote from: Narela on August 03, 2011, 03:31:12 AM
I have chosen, neither

Girls think that we are GAY   >:(

maybe your girlfriends not mine

Quote from: LilKittyCatZoey on August 03, 2011, 04:03:19 AM
maybe your girlfriends not mine

I think they believe you're ''Super Gay''
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2532%2F3799320381_04023d00cc.jpg&hash=b812926ef67cbae958f864592eda334d7a261c4d)

Quote from: Narela on August 03, 2011, 04:28:34 AM


I think they believe you're ''Super Gay''

Thats a unjustified attack at me narela.  I dont think you have the right to tell me who you have never met that my friends you have never met either are lying to my face.

Quote from: LilKittyCatZoey on August 03, 2011, 04:38:38 AM
Thats a unjustified attack at me narela.

Nop, this is the reality for all us , girls think that gay=trans trans=gay 

This is the reason I am against the union of transsexuals and homosexuals in the same motion (LGTB)

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,99819.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,99819.0.html)

Quote from: Narela on August 03, 2011, 04:46:06 AM


Nop, this is the reality for all us , girls think that gay=trans trans=gay 

This is the reason I am against the union of transsexuals and homosexuals in the same motion (LGTB)

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,99819.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,99819.0.html)

your just putting your own situation as everyone elses and assuming.

Actually, my female friends were really surprised when I told them I was starting to have feelings for guys. :) As a boy, I had never really shown any interest in anyone, male or female, so they were pretty shocked when I suddenly revealed that I might like to find a boyfriend someday.

Quote from: Eleanor on August 03, 2011, 06:39:40 AM
Actually, my female friends were really surprised when I told them I was starting to have feelings for guys. :) As a boy, I had never really shown any interest in anyone, male or female, so they were pretty shocked when I suddenly revealed that I might like to find a boyfriend someday.

Mine were also shocked about that lol  :)

Well, hormones open up the "gates of perception".
You now can see 'past your male nose' so to speak.

Men can be sexy (and dangerous) for a girl. Girl-on-girl is more 'fluffy', though nice too.

I was myself also quite rattled once I noticed some REALLY SEXY MALES.
I'd have put a bet on my mother's grave to be not gay.
I'm still not gay because gay males really bore me.
But yeah, no question there are some VERY sexy males about, AND WHAT IS WRONG TO TAKE NOTE AS A GIRL?!
No one says we have to turn out lesbians - only, or?

Axelle

Quote from: Narela on August 03, 2011, 04:46:06 AM


Nop, this is the reality for all us , girls think that gay=trans trans=gay 

I'm a girl and I don't think gay=trans.

Quote from: Narela on August 03, 2011, 04:28:34 AM
I think they believe you're ''Super Gay''
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2532%2F3799320381_04023d00cc.jpg&hash=b812926ef67cbae958f864592eda334d7a261c4d)

Too funny!  My "gaydar"not not work well but one mid-thirties older male friend was very effeminate and not trans called me "super gay" in teacher's lounge.  He had a big grin and I thought it rather humorous.  Students always called me "gay" since I worked in an inner city and they had no filters and no diplomacy. I tended to dress male; however, male clothes were feminine and female clothes were masculine.  Girls complemented my clothing and would say "Mr._ , I wear that sweater with leggins."   Boys shook their heads and mumbled "gay".  Girls were more accepting but both boys and girls liked me.

Sexual orientation is still confusing.  In my own way I do like company of ladies and to most part do not like advances of men.  Yesterday I was walking to store and a young muscular Hispanic man in twenties pulled along side in his pick-up truck and asked me "How you doing?"  He said some other things with a smile that I did not understand.  These are some of good things when you get old in that you can not see, you can not hear, and your judgement gets clouded.  Weird thing is I liked attention from good looking young muscular guy.  He probably said "Go to Hell" or "Do you want to go to Jail".  Hey it seemed like Hello and flirting!  I had a negative experience when I arrived at auto store in that store manager just left counter.

Overall most people are nice to me.  I know a lot of trans people and I have on occasion felt they were very belittling, condescending, and mean but on flip side a number go out of their way for me.  Brutal trans people were MTF not FTM.  That is opposite of what I would have expected since genetic females tend to be more accepting!

My sister just assumed that I was heterosexual.  In our sister chats she used to talk about 'hot boys' and say things like 'this is what boys like'.    She was being tactful and encouraging.   She was letting me know that it was okay by her if I liked boys without actually coming out and asking me and risking potential conflict and a lessening of sisterly solidarity.    She was giving me the opportunity to say ' oh hot boys are so scrummy. There is like this one boy who is like soooo cute.'   
  To be honest and potentially controversial, both my mother and sister were rather taken aback when they found out that I didn't like boys.   They said to me indirectly and in so many words 'you're a girl now its alright to like boys .'   I suspect that they think that I am still holding on to some small male part of me.   I think that there is some small truth in this.  Because I spent a lot of time being with boys and mixing with them, boys have no delicious air of mystery about them that I think attracts genetic females.   To girls, boys really are inscrutable, mysterious and this unknown quality, along with raging female hormones these things make boys highly attractive to girls.   Perhaps if I had been out 10 years ago and hung out with girls, I might be saying to my sister today' oh my goodness Johnny is so hot.  What can I do to get him to ask me out?'


What to you think of this?   Are early transitioners those who go through their actual teenage years as girls and being socialised as a girl more likely to be heterosexual?    Are we post teen transitioners who where never socialised as female more likely to be gay as a consequence?    You might argue that people are born heterosexual and homosexual and I believe that is true for genetic males and females who aren't transsexuals/transgendered.     I really don't know if this applies to us though.   

Why would our sexuality operate differently than other people's?

No, I'm quite certain I was born this way. I knew I was gay - was ashamed and afraid to be gay - before I knew I was trans. And I assure you, it's not because of any 'air of mystery' that boys had. It's the girls I found inscrutable. Still do. But I don't find them attractive. Just incomprehensible.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on August 03, 2011, 04:53:56 PM


?   Are early transitioners those who go through their actual teenage years as girls and being socialised as a girl more likely to be heterosexual?    Are we post teen transitioners who where never socialised as female more likely to be gay as a consequence?    You might argue that people are born heterosexual and homosexual and I believe that is true for genetic males and females who aren't transsexuals/transgendered.     I really don't know if this applies to us though.   

Not sure I would concur...I would not have described my socialization as having been that of a girl, although it was very much a gender-neutral background.  Despite that, I was lesbian-identified by the time I got to high school (this was the VERY early 80's) and had known I was 'different' since the 70's.  And in the 25-ish years that have passed since high school, no amount of HRT or surgery has ever prompted me to have any manner of sexual thought about guys...some people are just wired to be gold-stars  ;D

Hmmm so what if we weren't born that way? So what if, indeed, one's teenage years affected their sexuality? I mostly stuck around with other girls in my teenage years and I like boys. However, correlation does not imply causation, so one cannot conclude at all that influenced me to like boys—in fact, they never asked me directly if I thought a guy was hot (though I never told them either I liked boys, despite having told them "just treat me like another girl"). On the other hand, guys never discussed girls with me either...

But actually, it would seem to me that trans people are considerably more likely to be homosexual, so I am somewhat hesitant to say that trans people's sexuality is the same as other people's in general. I feel there's definitely something different.

Quote from: apple pie on August 03, 2011, 06:10:46 PM
But actually, it would seem to me that trans people are considerably more likely to be homosexual, so I am somewhat hesitant to say that trans people's sexuality is the same as other people's in general. I feel there's definitely something different.

Just because the prevalence is different doesn't mean the mechanism has to be different. It could just be that the mechanism is the same, but the frequency of exposure to it is different. One of the working hypotheses for the origin of homosexuality is an exposure to cross-sex hormones/atypical hormone levels at a specific time in fetal development. Trans people have a known history of exposure to cross-sex hormones/atypical fetal hormone levels for our identified gender.

Quote from: kyril on August 03, 2011, 06:31:11 PM
Just because the prevalence is different doesn't mean the mechanism has to be different. It could just be that the mechanism is the same, but the frequency of exposure to it is different. One of the working hypotheses for the origin of homosexuality is an exposure to cross-sex hormones/atypical hormone levels at a specific time in fetal development. Trans people have a known history of exposure to cross-sex hormones/atypical fetal hormone levels for our identified gender.

Well stated!  I was definitely gay before transition, but I forced myself into doing everything heterosexual in hopes that my sexuality and gender problems would go away.  Yeah, that worked like a charm, didn't it? :laugh:  Of course, now that I'm transitioning, I don't have to do any mental acrobatics anymore: I like guys, I'm a girl, therefore I really am straight.  Funny how that plays out.  Now I'm just desperate to be with a guy because it's virgin territory for me even though it was my lifelong natural urge.  So many years to catch up on!

Now as for being accepted more by girls than guys?  I've found that to be the case, as much as I didn't think it would be.  My family reunion last week was a prime example.  It was my first reunion since coming out and all the men avoided me, but the women embraced and spoke to me.

Quote from: kyril on August 03, 2011, 06:31:11 PM

Just because the prevalence is different doesn't mean the mechanism has to be different.

An excellent point! Well pointed out.

Though I am sort of thinking that even for non-transsexuals, perhaps their sexuality would also be influenced by their earlier life. So it might be the same for us too with the same mechanism.

Quote from: apple pie on August 03, 2011, 08:30:50 PM
An excellent point! Well pointed out.

Though I am sort of thinking that even for non-transsexuals, perhaps their sexuality would also be influenced by their earlier life. So it might be the same for us too with the same mechanism.

It's theoretically possible, but so far there's been absolutely no evidence found to support this idea. Despite the efforts of thousands of anti-gay groups, a number of psychology/child development professionals, and parents around the world, nobody has ever been able to reliably prevent children from growing up to be gay. They have ruined a lot of lives trying, though.

And then one of them might come here, read this and then somehow conclude that "members at a GLBT forum also support the notion that sexuality might be changed" :laugh:

I just thought about it a little more; I think what I just said earlier isn't quite right. Instead of influencing the actual sexuality, it affects one's expressing of their sexuality instead. If you grew up somewhere where everyone you knew told you that homosexuality was wrong, you might suppress it (not express it) without even consciously knowing it and try to be heterosexual, because we all tend to do what everyone else does. You might get married, have children, and 30 years later supposing you still haven't come across the notion that homosexuality might be alright, the whole world, including your own self, would think you are heterosexual... That might seem to be a "success" in changing one's sexuality to some. (I have in mind sort of how genes are also selectively expressed depending on the physiological environment)

Oops a bit long winded :laugh: dunno if it makes sense...

Going through transition, MtF (don't know about FtM of course) I started to notice men from a female perspective point of view. Sexy! (some of them, eh)

I grew up in post war Germany where you got about 4 years prison for being MALE homosexual, girls just didn't count --- maybe still don't?

Yet, my male perspective was formed from my boy-guise point of few. Though I never really was homophobic toward neither male or female, being female inside may have quite something to do with that being OK.

If I was confronted about being a homosexual in the closet it just did not connect, as little as it connects now.
I had a long term friendship with a homosexual male and gave that an "intimate try" -- it left me bored and so very clear it was not my cup of tea at all.

Yet, I can fantasize about having sex with a straight male IF IT INVOLVES MY NEO-VAGINA and me being bottom, mostly?

BTW the male gay friendship just ran out of interest on his side. Once I transitioned, he lost interest. A pity, but so it is and it can not be revived because I know having now lost my "male attraction".

In some folk's books that would now make me a trans-homosexual?
I'm too much of a girl to take that on board, and yet it only changed once I'd become more comfortable in being the female that I am (in my head).

Axelle

my theory on the increased prevalence of homosexuality, bisexuality, and pensexuality is that trans people are more likely to express their true sexuality because they are generally better in tune with matters of gender and sexuality in the first place. i think the percentage of people who are actually not heterosexual in the "real world" (referring to straight, cis, normative people) is a lot higher than the number of people who are acting upon their non-heterosexuality.

Quote from: RyanThomas on August 04, 2011, 01:33:13 PM
my theory on the increased prevalence of homosexuality, bisexuality, and pensexuality is that trans people are more likely to express their true sexuality because they are generally better in tune with matters of gender and sexuality in the first place. i think the percentage of people who are actually not heterosexual in the "real world" (referring to straight, cis, normative people) is a lot higher than the number of people who are acting upon their non-heterosexuality.

There also might be a lot of gay-identifying individuals who might have heterosexual tendencies but don't acknowledge it because society tends to only offer two choices.

Quote from: Sunnynight on August 04, 2011, 01:37:09 PM
There also might be a lot of gay-identifying individuals who might have heterosexual tendencies but don't acknowledge it because society tends to only offer two choices.

I've speculated for a long time that there are a lot more bisexual people than it would seem.

I don't know if it's still like this in the "gay community" (because I resigned a while back :)) but when I was first coming out as "gay" (and still being attracted to women too) I had to be in stealth over liking girls, because the gay men I was around collectively assumed no-one liked girls and were quite dismissive of/threatened by anyone who did. To be honest, it sort of reminded me of being 10 ::). Of course, I now know gay men who are not like this. But I wonder how much it's a group thing, rather than what people individually believe?

I've worked many years with numbers.  At least 10% of population only is attracted to same gender.  Do you really think being attracted to both genders would be smaller than 10%?  Millennium ago Roman soldiers slept in pairs.  One solder put blanket on ground and other solder put blanket on top.  They snuggled together to keep warm and they really snuggled to generate heat.   It was rather accepted and many had wives.  Society dictates what they want us to believe.  Nature loves diversity and society does not.  Bisexuality is far greater than 10%.  Many males in college slept with males when a female was not available.  They told me they were not gay.  (I think that is openly bisexual.  What you think?)

Statistically half males that only like females like both genders or only opposite gender when they transition.   A lot more than 10% of population is bisexual.  It is difficult to hide being gay but it is not difficult to hide bisexuality.

"Millennium ago Roman soldiers slept in pairs.  One solder put blanket on ground and other solder put blanket on top.  They snuggled together to keep warm and they really snuggled to generate heat.   It was rather accepted and many had wives."

OK, if you're trying to impose modern homosexuality on the Romans, you're going to get a fight.  No ancient culture.  Let me repeat: No ancient culture knew anything like modern American homosexuality.  Did some know of same-sex sexual activity of various kinds?  Yes--but none knew of adult men who preferred the sex with other adult men and formed same sex partnerships or "marriages."  This was completely unknown until modern times.  What was practiced in Greece in Classical times was pederasty.  In Rome, pederasty was not tolerated.  There were various types of same sex sexual activity in several cultures, and some did know of transgender expressions, but this was in a cultural context that is completely foreign to what is occurring in America today.  That's not saying good, bad, or indifferent--but that is how it was.

Don't get me started on Sparta.

Quote from: Narela on August 03, 2011, 04:46:06 AM


Nop, this is the reality for all us , girls think that gay=trans trans=gay 

This is the reason I am against the union of transsexuals and homosexuals in the same motion (LGTB)

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,99819.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,99819.0.html)

That's not true.

The simple fact that every girl that knows me who knows I am trans does not label me as a gay man negates your assumption that all girls think that.

Quote from: Annah on August 08, 2011, 01:26:05 AM
That's not true.

The simple fact that every girl that knows me who knows I am trans does not label me as a gay man negates your assumption that all girls think that.

exactly

Quote from: Annah on August 08, 2011, 01:26:05 AM
That's not true.

The simple fact that every girl that knows me who knows I am trans does not label me as a gay man negates your assumption that all girls think that.

I'll second that!  All of my female friends see me as a straight woman, not a gay man (and yes, all of my female friends know about me because they all knew me before transition).  My ex-wife even made some comment to me a few weeks back that she'd offer to hook me up with this one guy, but that he was gay and gay men aren't into women.

I find it very difficult to tell guys. Usually girls think it's cute, and guys think it's weird. However my sister says she's all so excepting and supportive and whatever: calls me girl and such, but still calls me her brother. My sister in law hates it and so does my brother "because of their kids". Family can be the most stubborn and non-understanding of them all.

Quote from: mechakitty on August 02, 2011, 11:18:54 PM
Oh, just wait until you run into one of those "womyn born womyn" types that see you as a threat to all femininity.

Talk about an overreaction to the extreme. ::)

I've had some online run ins with those types recently.

Started to converse with one... was quite respectful and everyone, simply asked if she was interested in dialog and to try to understand where both sides are coming from.

You would have thought I threatened to kill her or something... she went off on this lengthy tangent about male privilege and how I was anti woman and contributed to women being oppressed and all sorts of things.

Honestly it was almost like the lady was insane or something and read things that weren't even there in my comments.

Quote from: Annah on August 08, 2011, 01:26:05 AM
That's not true.

The simple fact that every girl that knows me who knows I am trans does not label me as a gay man negates your assumption that all girls think that.

This is because Girls think Gay='Almost' Woman, so for them Trans = men who want women body to attract guys, or ''Super Gays'' , or directly mental ill , even PERVS

Plus, they can be hypocrites

Quote from: Narela on August 10, 2011, 05:36:48 AM

This is because Girls think Gay='Almost' Woman, so for them Trans = men who want women body to attract guys, or ''Super Gays'' , or directly mental ill , even PERVS

Plus, they can be hypocrites

What are you talking about? (that was a rhetorical question, no need to clarify)

Only the completely idiotic girls think gay = almost woman. Super Gay? I've never heard that one before. Me thinks you're just being rude to stir up attention so you can get a laugh :P

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on August 10, 2011, 07:19:22 AM
Me thinks you're just being rude to stir up attention so you can get a laugh :P

Ohh!yes,  i'm not transsexual and i want to laugh at them 

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on August 10, 2011, 07:19:22 AM
Only the completely idiotic girls think gay = almost woman.

I have heard many call to ''tipical gays''  - ''She'' 

(Plus, this is only my opinion, and what i see)

It's a little late for me to sound off on this whole discussion, but it's been my perception that while most men tend to simply not accept us at all. Like women, the ones that do accept us, accept that we FEEL that we're SUPPOSED to be women, not that we ARE women.

They don't accept us as women period. The only people that seriously accept us as women are the ones that don't know we're trans. If anyone says differently, i'd never believe them.

I have always found it easier to come out to females, then males. Guess it's just natural. My feeling always has been that a girl is more likely not to be bothered with it, as they can at least get the attraction to being a female. Can't say it's fake, but it always seems that way.

Quote from: JennaNicole on August 10, 2011, 11:45:30 AM
I have always found it easier to come out to females, then males. Guess it's just natural. My feeling always has been that a girl is more likely not to be bothered with it, as they can at least get the attraction to being a female. Can't say it's fake, but it always seems that way.

tHANKS FOR KEEPING ON TOPIC YOUR A STAR  :D :D

Quote from: JennaNicole on August 10, 2011, 11:45:30 AM
I have always found it easier to come out to females, then males. Guess it's just natural. My feeling always has been that a girl is more likely not to be bothered with it, as they can at least get the attraction to being a female. Can't say it's fake, but it always seems that way.

That was definitely the case with my extended relatives.  Almost every one of the males stopped talking to me or making eye contact with me, and only one of my female relatives did likewise.  With friends, I only knew two guys, both of whom were always as open-minded and conversationalist as I was (why we got along so well) and both said they could have told me before I ever told them.  They just couldn't figure out if I was gay or trans.  All my other friends were female and embraced me fully... not to mention getting excited about taking me shopping. :laugh: