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Kia Ora all,

::) This is of a sorts a social experiment...And those who participate will in a sense be rewarded for their participation ...I'm hoping ones "optimistic" self will participate- however ones "pessimistic' self is equally welcomed...

Gratitude : German philosopher Balduin Schwarz once said "The ungrateful, envious complaining man...Cripples himself...He is focused on what he has not, particularly on that which someone else has or seems to have, and by this he tends to poison his world !"

So how does it feel to be grateful ?

[In anticipation] I'm most "grateful" for your participation...

Happy Mindfulness :)

Metta Zenda :) 

This is a cynical take, but there's all too much truth to it:

"Gratitude is a euphemism for resentment." - Robert Heinlein

Personally, I think it's a little closer to guilt than resentment, but either way, I never expect anyone to feel grateful. I try to squash that as soon as it appears. I don't think it's a productive emotion. When I do something nice for someone, it's because I want them to be happy, not because I want them to be grateful. I think we'd be better off if we replaced all of the gratitude and obligation and charity and guilt with simple unconditional love.

Kia Ora Kyril,

::) Thanks...   ::) An interesting take...

However if somebody does something nice for you [a random act of kindness so to speak]...
Do you feel any gratitude towards this person ?
Or do you just take it for granted ?
Or are you somewhat suspicious of the person's motives ?

Bearing in mind being grateful does not have to involve another person, it might just be having the good fortune to sit at the beach feeling the sun's warm rays upon your body-being grateful for the sunshine[just an example]...

Remember folks the original question was "So how does it "feel" to be grateful ?" Is it a good feeling? A bad feeling ? Or is it............................?

Metta Zenda :)

Gratitude comes from being grateful for something. It is a GIVING emotion for being thankful for something and is the opposite of being jealous of someone or something.

It as poring out of the heart, it is looking at a beautiful flower, a smile, a lovely person, beautiful animal, etc. etc. and being thankful to behold - and SEE it!

It is the thankfulness for food on your plate, a roof over your head and a nice person to speak to and share your company with.

The list goes on and on. IT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH NEGATIVE SENTIMENTS, and least to do with resentment or cynicism.
Those two things are complete opposites I'm not even sorry to mention.

I is a blessing to be able to be grateful... as some of us are so dug into their never ending unachieved needs, they have lost their space to be grateful in.

Axelle
PS: I'm actually grateful to be able to post this. Thank you!
PPS: I recently had a close to death experience and it sure makes you grateful JUST TO BE ALIFE.

Kia Ora Axelle,

::) You are welcome...And I truly hope this new found appreciation of life continues  :)


Metta Zenda :)

I've been interested in gratitude for a long time (it's something I feel a lot of), and got even more interested after I got intrigued by the very specific way in which it's referred to in early Buddhist texts (because it seemed like a very accurate analysis). There are two terms that get used a lot together or interchangeably - they both basically mean "knowing what has been done", but the first points to knowing in the knowledge sense, to being able to appreciate exactly what was done and why it's valuable; whereas the second is more the gut/heart response to seeing something good happening. I like that they're both acknowledged - gratitude isn't a cold response, and it's also not an unintelligent one.

The other thing that I notice about gratitude (and which is reflected in that way of talking about it) is that I can be grateful for something that's not necessarily been done for *me* :). I value this feeling, of being grateful for kind or generous acts someone has done for someone else, that I just happen to have been a witness to.

There's something about gratitude that acknowledges the relatedness of all of us, the interconnectedness, the interdependence. I have breakfast on my plate right now, and it's there because of the efforts of a lot of people spread over a wide geographical area to grow food, transport it, make the plate...

Oh yes, and the thing that is most likely to get in the way of me feeling grateful is my own pride - being competitive, I can't appreciate what someone's done when I'm too busy thinking "I could have done that better" or "I want the attention/approval (s)he's getting for doing that." Sad but true, a mess in progress. Still, progress... :).

A rather cynical but beautifully expressed view from Goldsmith, a very proud and vain man.

Gratitude and love are almost opposite affections: love is often an involuntary passion, placed upon our companions without our consent, and frequently conferred without our previous esteem. We love some men we know not why; our tenderness is naturally excited in all their concerns; we excuse their faults with the same indulgence and approve their virtues with the same applause with which we consider our own. While we entertain the passion, it pleases us, we cherish it with delight, and give it up with reluctance, and love for love is all the reward we expect or desire.    
  Gratitude, on the contrary, is never conferred but where there have been previous endeavours to excite it; we consider it as a debt, and our spirits wear a load till we have discharged the obligation. Every acknowledgment of gratitude is a circumstance of humiliation; and some are found to submit to frequent mortifications of this kind, proclaiming what obligations they owe, merely because they think it in some measure cancels the debt.    
  Thus love is the most easy and agreeable, and gratitude the most humiliating affection of the mind: we never reflect on the man we love, without exulting in our choice, while he who has bound us to him by benefits alone, rises to our ideas as a person to whom we have in some measure forfeited our freedom.


Oliver Goldsmith: Citizen of the World, Letter LXVI. 

Quote from: Zenda on July 31, 2011, 01:24:06 AM
However if somebody does something nice for you [a random act of kindness so to speak]...
Do you feel any gratitude towards this person ?
Or do you just take it for granted ?
Or are you somewhat suspicious of the person's motives ?

None of the above, if I can help it. Any of those would get in the way of appreciating the nice thing the person did. I'd be appropriately grateful if it were obvious that it was expected, but then it would be hard to think of it as a nice thing or a random act of kindness - it becomes a transactional exchange, their kindness traded for my gratitude.

Quote from: Zenda on July 31, 2011, 01:24:06 AM
Bearing in mind being grateful does not have to involve another person, it might just be having the good fortune to sit at the beach feeling the sun's warm rays upon your body-being grateful for the sunshine[just an example]...

Grateful to whom? No, I don't think I'm grateful in those circumstances. I can be happy, and appreciate the beauty of the sunlight and the patterns of light as it sparkles on the sand, and think it's a wonderful thing that I'm there on that day to enjoy it...but grateful? No, that would spoil it. That would be burdening myself with a sense of guilt and obligation (to whom? or what? the universe?) for something that was freely given.

Quote from: Zenda on July 31, 2011, 01:24:06 AM
Remember folks the original question was "So how does it "feel" to be grateful ?" Is it a good feeling? A bad feeling ? Or is it............................?

Bad. It's something very close to guilt. It's the feeling that I owe someone something - that I've been given something I didn't truly deserve or have any right to receive, something that wasn't freely given but came burdened with demands and expectations.

I guess it's going to be another "what does the term mean to you?" something different to each of us, deal. My conception of gratitude is something healthy and very different from debt/obligation, but there's a strong tendency in our culture to pollute the idea of gratitude with debt/obligation, especially when it comes to someone telling someone else they "should" be grateful for something - pff ::). I think when true gratitude arises, it does just that - it's not constructed, it's not demanded, it's not expected, it's just a response of appreciation that arises in natural response to good action - and it inspires good action, rather than making us feel guilty.

To my mind, all that other stuff that gets called gratitude is really just like the NutraSweet version - leaves a nasty taste in the mouth, and is potentially carcinogenic.

Feeling grateful being "close to guilt"?!

For me it's being close to love, if not some form of love itself.

It only makes sense to "being close to guilt" if one is EXPECTED to be GRATEFUL.
THAT is an issue with the person expecting it! It's up to yourself entirely to buy into their expectations. There are LOTS of unreal expectations out there. We can be trained to feel guilty about just ANYTHING.
Like: "I LOVE you"  ... if you do what I want from you. It's one of those selfish notions of some "altruistic" persons. They are simply projecting their own guilt feeling onto you. That's manipulation, emotional blackmail, and despicable --- if often not understood behaviour by a lot 'expectees'. It can put you off being grateful and for that reason it is despicable, I say.

Axelle
EDIT: Padma honey, you are SO right on the money. You put it so well, thank you.

Quote from: Padma on July 31, 2011, 03:26:16 AM
I guess it's going to be another "what does the term mean to you?" something different to each of us, deal. My conception of gratitude is something healthy and very different from debt/obligation, but there's a strong tendency in our culture to pollute the idea of gratitude with debt/obligation, especially when it comes to someone telling someone else they "should" be grateful for something - pff ::). I think when true gratitude arises, it does just that - it's not constructed, it's not demanded, it's not expected, it's just a response of appreciation that arises in natural response to good action - and it inspires good action, rather than making us feel guilty.

To my mind, all that other stuff that gets called gratitude is really just like the NutraSweet version - leaves a nasty taste in the mouth, and is potentially carcinogenic.

What you're describing, I just call "appreciation."

The word "gratitude" comes with all sorts of Western European religious baggage - God's grace etc. It's fundamentally a Christian word. The original context of the word for me was being told that it was what I was supposed to feel in response to Jesus dying on the cross for my sins. And that story - even if I hypothetically grant that it's true - doesn't trigger anything like appreciation in me. It makes me feel terrible - collective guilt (original sin) and proxy punishment (Jesus dying for us) strike me as really awful policies for running a universe, and it's horrible that such a nice guy would have to be killed to sate the bloodlust of such an awful deity. If I believed that it was true, and if I believed that that was why I was saved, and if I believed that I was obliged to be grateful to God for it, I certainly wouldn't be feeling anything positive - I'd be feeling vaguely guilty, sad, and probably a little bit angry.

The other context - the social context - is just as bad. Gratitude is what you're supposed to 'show' people who do things 'for' you, even/especially if you didn't ask for them or even want them. I had to 'show' my gratitude to various family members for the nine pairs of ugly socks (and nothing else) I got for Christmas when I was 6 (my cousins got toys. I got socks. They got to play. I got to 'be grateful'.) That's not something positive. That's not something I can even remotely associate with the feeling of appreciation and joy and wonder I get from watching the sun rise over the mountains, or the smile I get when my friend just randomly decides to pay for my drink, or the warm fuzzy feeling I have when I'm snuggling with a beautiful human being who loves me.

Well that makes perfect sense - if I'd been brought up with all those negative associations with the word, I'd not want to have anything to do with it either.

I was "lucky" enough to grow up Jewish, where the god I was lucky (no quotes needed there) enough never to believe in inspired fear, not gratitude or guilt. I've been the recipient of a lot of support and generosity from others over the years (and enjoyed seeing others receive that too), and am comfortable with calling what I feel in response "gratitude", but no-one else needs to do that if it doesn't sit right with them, and "appreciation" is just as good a word for it - it's a little luke-warm to me compared to gratitude, but then I have a hot-warm response to gratitude as a word :).

The word isn't remotely important compared to the quality.

Hey Kyril, and then there's always therapy to move on past some of these "drummed in" and twisted notions.

Also, it's very OK for guys to feel genuine gratitude. Doesn't make you a soft egg, believe me :-)

It actually feels real good to be thankful even for little things --- all on your own, without any BS prompting.
Ta, ta,
Axelle

V M, life is dangerous... that includes discussions of sticky subjects, IMHO.

Axelle

Kia Ora,

::) I apologise for making some of you feel uncomfortable...Normally when a person "thinks" about how they felt when someone was kind to them, it would normally produce a wholesome feeling when recalling the experience...This was my intention when starting this thread...Hence the rewards...

My mind tends to flow in line with Padma's which includes "sympathetic joy" sharing in the happiness of others as well as being grateful for what I have in my life...

Metta Zenda :)

Gratitude is just being thankful or appreciative. No big deal.

The only thing I know is no one can MAKE you feel anything. Once that is down, you can control your feelings just fine.

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 31, 2011, 02:38:44 AM
A rather cynical but beautifully expressed view from Goldsmith, a very proud and vain man.

Gratitude and love are almost opposite affections: love is often an involuntary passion, placed upon our companions without our consent, and frequently conferred without our previous esteem. We love some men we know not why; our tenderness is naturally excited in all their concerns; we excuse their faults with the same indulgence and approve their virtues with the same applause with which we consider our own. While we entertain the passion, it pleases us, we cherish it with delight, and give it up with reluctance, and love for love is all the reward we expect or desire.    
  Gratitude, on the contrary, is never conferred but where there have been previous endeavours to excite it; we consider it as a debt, and our spirits wear a load till we have discharged the obligation. Every acknowledgment of gratitude is a circumstance of humiliation; and some are found to submit to frequent mortifications of this kind, proclaiming what obligations they owe, merely because they think it in some measure cancels the debt.    
  Thus love is the most easy and agreeable, and gratitude the most humiliating affection of the mind: we never reflect on the man we love, without exulting in our choice, while he who has bound us to him by benefits alone, rises to our ideas as a person to whom we have in some measure forfeited our freedom.


Oliver Goldsmith: Citizen of the World, Letter LXVI. 

I think what Goldy is talking about here is not gratitude, it's obligation, but you can see his point, that there is an unequal power balance that makes friendship difficult.

I think gratitude is a natural and free choice and there are a great many people I feel grateful too, but there are some I feel obliged to also.

I think you got it right Pica.

There is allot to be thankful for in life, but I thank I am most grateful for friendships  :)

Kia Ora,

Empirical findings [A Wiki snippet or if you like the lazy person's ontap teacher ] ...

Gratitude has been said to have one of the strongest links with mental health of any character trait. Numerous studies suggest that grateful people are more likely to have higher levels of happiness and lower levels of stress and depression.[29][30] In one study concerning gratitude, participants were randomly assigned to one of six therapeutic intervention conditions designed to improve the participant's overall quality of life (Seligman et. all., 2005).[31]

Out of these conditions, it was found that the biggest short-term effects came from a "gratitude visit" where participants wrote and delivered a letter of gratitude to someone in their life. This condition showed a rise in happiness scores by 10 percent and a significant fall in depression scores, results which lasted up to one month after the visit.

Out of the six conditions, the longest lasting effects were caused by the act of writing "gratitude journals" where participants were asked to write down three things they were grateful for every day. These participants' happiness scores also increased and continued to increase each time they were tested periodically after the experiment.

In fact, the greatest benefits were usually found to occur around six months after treatment began. This exercise was so successful that although participants were only asked to continue the journal for a week, many participants continued to keep the journal long after the study was over. Similar results have been found from studies conducted by Emmons and McCullough (2003)[14] and Lyubomirsky et. all. (2005).[30]

Whilst many emotions and personality traits are important to well-being, there is evidence that gratitude may be uniquely important. First, a longitudinal study showed that people who were more grateful coped better with a life transition[just thought I would add  ::) now that's interesting..could there be a connection with the "transition" we go through ?]. Specifically, people who were more grateful before the transition were less stressed, less depressed, and more satisfied with their relationships three months later.[32] Second, two recent studies have suggested that gratitude may have a unique relationship with well-being, and can explain aspects of well-being that other personality traits cannot. Both studies showed that gratitude was able to explain more well-being than the Big Five and 30 of the most commonly studied personality traits

End of Wiki snippet ...

::) I don't know about others but I'm truly "grateful" for Wiki  ;)


Metta Zenda :)

Well hon, and I am grateful for your sharing this info. Not just saying...

Incidentally, it is also of weighty importance with LAGAT (Large Group Awareness Trainings) such as EST, it's present off shoots, as well as the SA versions of I AM and Joyspring.

In that sense it is not at all new to me but surely a confirmation that being spontaneously grateful not only feel good, but in deed makes for more happiness.

Have a great day down under,
Axelle

Quote from: Zenda on July 31, 2011, 05:24:49 PM
My mind tends to flow in line with Padma's which includes "sympathetic joy" sharing in the happiness of others as well as being grateful for what I have in my life...

I also experience that delight in others' good fortune, but for me, gratitude is something more specific, which is specifically a mind-and-gut recognition of the consequences of positive actions. It's seeing how I (and others) benefit from the good actions of others, which motivates me to act well in life.

I think it's impossible to avoid having some effect in the world, and so I'd like to choose to have a good effect. Acknowledging the benefits of doing this (by seeing myself and others reaping the benefit of others acting well) helps me to live up to my aspirations - which isn't easy, because I'm a selfish bugger at heart too, so I'm grateful for any help there :).