Susan's Place Transgender Resources

The girl/wife had to be what I could not be, and she did play along for some time...
We were both unconscious of that fact, but I know today that this was the case.

Once that 'patch plaster" was ripped off after my (self initiated) divorce the jig was up.
As a saving grace I did get custody of my 8 year old son.

I still did not know that all the never ending pain and sadness (over 9 years post divorce) was based in my, what later transpired, GID.

It was a case of complete denial, despite ballet practice, earrings, aerobic dance, and endless ever failing GG relationships, and gay males going after me. With plenty people thinking I was homosexual and in the closet.
A most confounding situation if you have not figured out what is your case i.e. being transsexual!

Has anyone come to a similar realization, i.e. using ones partner as a "surrogate"?
Which is of course unfair to both parties involved IMHO.
YMMV

Axelle

Axelle,

This is difficult concept to understand and I have not seen it.

I think my wife is most wonderful woman in world.  I have always complemented her on her beauty, intelligence and sensitivity.

After I shared my feelings with her after 25 years she feels I married her because she is such a "perfect" female in my eyes.  I dismissed that concept to her.

However although we still love each other we have not been able to make either of us happy.  This is a selfish condition which is very draining and is painful to both my wife and myself. 

Sometimes I can be very silly and we have a grand time.  I am both glad and sad that my wife is still with me.  She certainly cares for me and wants "stuff" to go away.

I have often ussed a female lovers body as a proxy.
Still do on occasion.
:)

cynthialee,

Quote from: cynthialee on August 11, 2011, 01:50:23 PM
I have often ussed a female lovers body as a proxy.
Still do on occasion.
:)

Thank you hon, "proxy" was actually the better word for what I had wanted to say.

Also, whilst in such a "proxy relationship" it is VERY easily, (almost always?) explained as being "crazy" in love.
This being often not more than a very strong (immature) dependence.
Love to me means among other things, to have the best for your partner in mind. Dependence is not LOVE, it is about me, me, me. Often veiled by giving only in order to receive... i.e. conditional only and childlike immature.

Once you finally get over it, usually stopped by the "proxy partner", it starts to dawn, what is/was actually happening.

...
Axelle

Sevan and I both do it.

I don't think it is a bad thing or unhealthy if you know what your doing and why you are doing it and your mate is in on it.

Oh yes... I'm far too familiar with this.  I dated girls so that I could acceptably go into the places I wanted to go without getting strange looks.  So I could have someone in my life who understood my language (I never could speak male).  And I did it to make myself feel that everything was "normal."  It was never sexually though, because I didn't like sex.  Couldn't do it in this body without mental acrobatics that my brain could rarely muster the strength to perform.

It kind of makes me sad to think of how selfish I was.  Because truth told, I didn't even like girls sexually and I know from other stories how devastating it can be to a girl when she finds out that a guy she's with bats for the other team.  Believe it or not, 4 of the 5 girls I dated had it happen to them (for the fifth, I was her first relationship and she was mine).  Maybe that's a pattern for the types of girls I dated?  That they liked effeminate men?  Because pictures of me over the years prove that I didn't do a good job of hiding who I really was.  And every girl I was ever with asked at least once if I was gay (two of them were so convinced of it that they left me).  They were kind of right.  I liked guys, but I couldn't be with a guy as a guy.  I never saw myself as gay, but as a woman who liked guys.  And in my relationships, I may have had the male parts, but I was never the male.  Most of my girlfriends were headstrong and rational whereas I was emotional and feeling.

Surrogates?  Yeah, I'd say so.

I agree its not a bad thing ONCE YOU BOTH KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

The problem arises if both are in denial or simply don't know what they don't know.

The result will inevitably be all sort of projections in order to keep it all under the carpet, so to speak.

It happened to me, I see it now if I look back. Back then, I was just too "snowed under" to realized what was actually going on.

Axelle

Being married three times, I did live vicariously through them.  As my last ex once said, I was using her as my "Beard".  Maybe that is why I am single now. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsmileys.on-my-web.com%2Frepository%2FAnimals%2Fferret-7.gif&hash=9f27f1603b9ef76a5d4bbeedcd1615f680c36e8b)

Maybe a little wierd ....

But when the husband has the girl parts and the wife has the boy parts it is pretty easy to 'transfer' in your mind where the parts are at.

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on August 12, 2011, 09:47:09 AM
It was never sexually though, because I didn't like sex.  Couldn't do it in this body without mental acrobatics that my brain could rarely muster the strength to perform....
  And in my relationships, I may have had the male parts, but I was never the male.  Most of my girlfriends were headstrong and rational whereas I was emotional and feeling.

Surrogates?  Yeah, I'd say so.

Painful to read this stuff.  My wife as only women I ever liked sexually.  I absolutely loved talking to her because she is so intelligent.  Poor lady had to suffer for decades with me.  I could please her and after she was happy it was done for me.  I did that maybe one time a month to keep her happy.  I had no secret lovers.  My mind focused on satisfying her.  I did that exercise for a decade.

Finally she just cried when we were done.  I told her it was not her but me.  After a couple of times telling her she finally understood.

She says I always seems gay to her.  What gives with this gay stuff?  I did best I could.

If I transition I will do best I can.  No more and no less.

Since we each develop our own coping mechanisms it is difficult to categorize.

I became a girl with my wife and we shared that thing.

I would qualify for asexual but I do not think I am asexual.

Definitely my wife has kept me sane but now it just seems a cruel act of nature.

Sex with another person is a long ago memory.

I am glad my wife remains because she is a wonderful person and I am sad she remains because she is a wonderful person.

No one would want to enter mind.  I wonder if anyone else is caught in this circular reasoning pattern.

I've made this mistake and I'm still paying for it.

The person I'm with now was someone I started to have a relationship beyond friendship a year after I had met her. During the year we were friends we had become very close and one day she just blurted out "I love you!" (much to even her surprise).

I thought if I forced myself into the role of a man I might just be able to completely remove any concept of wishing I was a female out of my life.

Though here we are many years later and still have a wonderful relationship, I've told her about my feelings and my past and have told her about some of the things I've considered as ways to help make me more comfortable. Unfortunately what I hadn't thought about when I started this relationship was her feelings.

She's spent years working to help make this relationship as strong as it is, and so have I. She wants a relationship with a man. She's said, clearly to my face, if I started a transition to no longer be a man she wouldn't know how her emotions would react to that and instead of waiting for it to go wrong she would just leave me from the start in order for her to protect her plans for the future. We've agreed upon, and have put into motion plans for our future (at least her future) that would be disastrous for her at the very worst if I were to go back on what we've agreed to.

How could I do that to someone? She has invested interest in this relationship both financial and emotional.

I can't let her down like that, yet I still find it hard to be the person I am. And honestly I find it hard to be with her sometimes because I know why I started the relationship, I saw that I was starting to live vicariously through her (even though she doesn't have the most feminine upbringing) and when I was at my wits end on what to do about the situation I just let it all out to here thinking if she dumps me because of this she dumps me, at least it will be her decision.

But she didn't. At least she now knows.

She asked me, after I had told her about my discomfort as a male if I loved her. Not like the way two girls say I love you to each other but if I could look her in the face right then and there and tell her I loved her as a lover. She knew I didn't like sex (at least using my junk, I've told her in the past kids would not be good for our future yet) even before I told her about myself. It took a week for her to come up to me and ask if this had anything to do with our sex lives. I still haven't told her the truth about that yet. 

I still don't know what would be worse. Having her in my life while I'm a man or not having her in my life while I'm a woman.

LivingInGrey
Yeah hon,
what you relate is my story twice over --- not a fast learner at times.
The natal female you with, will not to quickly, if at all, see you as her female equal i.e. will tend to give you the lead/rains, also as far as breaking up goes. That is my experience TWICE.

Now being a trans-female you tend to react much the same way. So you stuck until one party bows out. And that "after the last nail breaks", will be the more 'grown-up' natal female. More 'grown-up' (emotionally) because her puberty will be longer past then yours.
Also my experience twice with minor variations.

Bottom line? Continue suffering greyness of guild and depression, or make a move. It be better, then having the 'reins' taken out of your hands eventually.
It may be your last 'act' as a 'male'...

My 2 cents,
Axelle

This sounds practically like sociopathy to me.

You know I get really upset when I read these threads where everyone gets all supportive about literally ruining other people's lives. What makes you think that just because you have problems it's okay to use people? That's awful. They spent so much of their life and emotions on their relationship only to come to the revelation that it was all a selfish lie. Now I never understood this whole "I'll pretend to be a manly man" thing because frankly I have no desire to do that and nobody even cares if you're not hyper-masculine to begin with. So I really can't sympathize when I read these stories like someone forced you all to lie to your wife, marry her, have sex with her, then lie to your children until 20 years later or whatever when you make the big reveal and tear all of that down.

I think the only reason any of you sympathize is because you did it too. Yeah, it's so easy to feel sorry for yourself and blame everyone and everything else. But if someone made a thread here about beating their wife you all would jump on that and say that it's not okay. Yet you are so open and remorseless about the emotional abuse you inflicted. I just don't get why it has come to the point that an accurate stereotype of this community would be "husbands that lie to and use their wives." All I can say is that I never did or wanted to do anything like that. You're not obligated to come out to everyone once you decide to transition, but you are absolutely obligated to tell your spouse, because that's a relationship that you chose to be in with an unwritten promise of honesty.

Quote from: pretty on August 13, 2011, 12:22:05 PM
This sounds practically like sociopathy to me.

You know I get really upset when I read these threads where everyone gets all supportive about literally ruining other people's lives. What makes you think that just because you have problems it's okay to use people? That's awful. They spent so much of their life and emotions on their relationship only to come to the revelation that it was all a selfish lie. Now I never understood this whole "I'll pretend to be a manly man" thing because frankly I have no desire to do that and nobody even cares if you're not hyper-masculine to begin with. So I really can't sympathize when I read these stories like someone forced you all to lie to your wife, marry her, have sex with her, then lie to your children until 20 years later or whatever when you make the big reveal and tear all of that down.

I think the only reason any of you sympathize is because you did it too. Yeah, it's so easy to feel sorry for yourself and blame everyone and everything else. But if someone made a thread here about beating their wife you all would jump on that and say that it's not okay. Yet you are so open and remorseless about the emotional abuse you inflicted. I just don't get why it has come to the point that an accurate stereotype of this community would be "husbands that lie to and use their wives." All I can say is that I never did or wanted to do anything like that. You're not obligated to come out to everyone once you decide to transition, but you are absolutely obligated to tell your spouse, because that's a relationship that you chose to be in with an unwritten promise of honesty.

And you know, some people had the luxury of not getting regularly beaten to a bloody pulp by their parents as they grew up.  Some people got to explore who they were instead of getting locked in dark rooms and starved half to death.  Some people got to know themselves and didn't feel the need to repress every shred of their identity just to survive at home, living in complete and utter fear of people who were supposed to be "loved ones" and "family."

Some of us got to grow up fearful and confused.  Some of us didn't mean to hurt others as we did it, because we didn't even know who we were deep inside and can only see after the fact what was really going on.  I, for one, never consciously meant to hurt anybody, especially not the girls I dated.  They were my light and my love and provided happiness to my dark and clouded mind.  They were my all.  They just didn't know what was going on deep inside of me because I didn't even know what was going on deep inside of me.  I was as afraid to explore it as I was afraid to be an ebullient child, because I got the buckle end of a belt across my face if I was heard playing or seen out of my room (unless it was when I was picking rocks out of dirt piles in the backyard).

It would help to realize that there's a difference between misunderstanding and malice.

Pretty,
not sure you taking about me when saying:
* What makes you think that just because you have problems it's okay to use people? *

Can only speak for myself here, but I didn't know in all honesty what was going on while it happened. I simply had RELATIONSHIP issues. We tend to project our issues onto others, due to lack awareness.

That realization hit me some time after those events --- a long time after actually.

If you do it all knowingly --- well, that's another call. Let me not throw stones while sitting in a glass house, eh.

Axelle

I can't really comment on not knowing because I was under the impression that most people knew pretty early in life. I have trouble understanding being a man in a straight relationship and not knowing immediately that that was wrong. But that's a different story I guess. I just feel really awful for all the wives who had everything snatched away from them like that.

Hon,
I would suggest you a more lucky one not growing up under severe repression from parental expectations AND as in my case to boot in a society that put homosexuals for 4 year in jail, and 6 for repeat offence.

A transsexual was nothing other then considered homosexual with some extra "twists" if you wish.

It is one of our issues making it hard to understand these formative backgrounds.
Repression and denial in those situations were/are par for the course.

So many young folks coming out (yet still with severe parental issues though) are a sign that society has opened up tremendously, compared to 20 - 40! years back.

Those few known transitioners then where like "astronauts" --- a very few selected to show some way ahead.

Axelle

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on August 12, 2011, 09:47:09 AMAnd in my relationships, I may have had the male parts, but I was never the male.  Most of my girlfriends were headstrong and rational whereas I was emotional and feeling.

Surrogates?  Yeah, I'd say so.

Exactly the same as me. I dated quite frequently in secondary school, trying to figure it all out. And noticing I was really just not interested. All that interested me was that I could talk more like myself to them, and we could go shopping together. My last two relationships were both "lead" by very headstrong women, which is partially why we went separate ways. That, and I towards the end of the relationship, the dysphoria hit hard. So, I haven't dated in quite a long time now because I don't want to hurt people anymore. Besides, I've "dreamt" of my marriage since I was a pre-teen... but never was it as a boy. Crazy, isn't that? That's not a good thing to hide from someone you care about.

I don't think using a surrogate is at all odd for us. And, I actually recall reading that it's just one of two reasons we end up going into unrealistic relationships. I'm sorry that you realised this so late Axelle.

Quote from: pretty on August 13, 2011, 12:44:25 PM
I can't really comment on not knowing because I was under the impression that most people knew pretty early in life. I have trouble understanding being a man in a straight relationship and not knowing immediately that that was wrong. But that's a different story I guess. I just feel really awful for all the wives who had everything snatched away from them like that.

I did know early in life.  At four years old I prayed to wake up a girl the next morning.  I cried, I pleaded, I had no love of the male world.

But at age 5, my stepmom entered the picture and my life was an endless stream of torture until I moved to my mom's house at 13.  No lights on after dark (punished by a beating), no saying you're full at dinner (punished by two days of no food), no being heard (punished by a beating), no having friends (punished by grounding and twice-daily beatings), no touching the refrigerator (beating), no looking at the TV (locked in a dark closet for the night), no playing with your toys without asking (beating), no listening to the radio (beating), no reading your books without asking (beating)... it goes on and on.

I got concussions, I got kicked backwards down the stairs, I got cigarette burns, I got falsely accused of sexual molestation, I got bruises and cracked bones.  I was told that I deserved everything bad in the world and I deserved all the bad the world could give me.  I was told that my soul was black and worthless.  I was told that I'd never make it in life and I'd be nothing.

Something about that kind of treatment can push gender issues down for decades.  Same with sexuality.  Conform, conform, conform, or the world will take you out.  That was my life for far too many years.

And in the matter of my own divorce, it had nothing to do with me being trans.  We just drifted apart (and thankfully Colorado is a no-fault state).  We both wanted it.  I didn't even accept the fact that I was trans until a year after the divorce was finalized, and didn't come out to anyone until nearly three years later.  As for my relationships, two of the girls left me for being too effeminate though I swore to them (and fooled myself into thinking) that I was just a sensitive straight guy.  Apparently they knew me better than I knew myself.  Another of the five girls I dated flat out left me because she was convinced I was gay.  But I wasn't gay.  I wasn't a guy who liked guys, because I could never be with a guy as a guy.  Somewhere inside, I knew I identified as a straight woman.  But that power to conform, that fear of the repercussions, was too strong for too many years.

So none of this was done with intent to harm anyone, especially not the five women I dated (including the one I married).  And for the record, turns out my ex-wife married me to escape Syracuse and her ex-boyfriend.  Her and I are best of friends again and we've had this discussion.  We both got married for the wrong reasons.  Had we known each other more than two months before the wedding, we would never have done it.

In the end, I see no crime that I committed, except that I hid myself away from my own self for far too long.  I ingested the poisonous messages of my dad and stepmom until they became the voice of my "consciousness" (object relations psychologists would have a field day with that).  When I think of my child self, I hate him for believing their hideous mantras, but I wish so much I could go back and just hold him, nurture him, and tell him that life isn't what they made it out to be.  He would have lived his inner she much earlier.  Perhaps he wouldn't have attempted suicide at age 11 and over 20 more times until the age of 27.  The maternal instincts inside of me bleed for that child and want to mend him.  I try every day.

My experiences made me a compassionate, kind, and loving soul, but certainly not blameless.  I accept what I did relationship-wise, but I refuse to chastise myself for it.  I've already been beaten enough times in this life.  It's time now to just love... love above all.

Quote from: Axélle on August 13, 2011, 12:56:07 PM
Hon,
I would suggest you a more lucky one not growing up under severe repression from parental expectations AND as in my case to boot in a society that put homosexuals for 4 year in jail, and 6 for repeat offence.

A transsexual was nothing other then considered homosexual with some extra "twists" if you wish.

It is one of our issues making it hard to understand these formative backgrounds.
Repression and denial in those situations were/are par for the course.

So many young folks coming out (yet still with severe parental issues though) are a sign that society has opened up tremendously, compared to 20 - 40! years back.

Those few known transitioners then where like "astronauts" --- a very few selected to show some way ahead.

Axelle

I did not intend to make this about me at all so I won't go there, but since when can other people's expectations make you not realize that you're trans? I could see why that would change your actions _if you already knew that you were trans_, but if you identified as a straight male most of your life then I do not see how it's relevant that other people were trans/homophobic. I grew up in a devout religious family and I never dared breathe a word of it to them, that didn't stop me knowing what I wanted.

Well said, Zoe. I went through the same ordeal with my step-father (must be that evil step parent thing). It's a shame how the world can perceive someone different as wrong and worthless. Especially when that "different" person has a heart of gold. The amount of courage we have to just be ourselves, and live our daily lives, I say is as encouraging as some of the greatest heroines from the past. We push ourselves through a lot of very difficult obstacles in an attempt to please the world, and coerce them into believing we're okay. I hope that is not offensive, I'm not intending it to be.

Quote from: pretty on August 13, 2011, 01:15:34 PM
I did not intend to make this about me at all so I won't go there, but since when can other people's expectations make you not realize that you're trans? I could see why that would change your actions _if you already knew that you were trans_, but if you identified as a straight male most of your life then I do not see how it's relevant that other people were trans/homophobic. I grew up in a devout religious family and I never dared breathe a word of it to them, that didn't stop me knowing what I wanted.

You're lucky. You say you lived in a devout religious home. So did I, and I didn't breathe a word of it to them either. For myself though, between society and my "devout religious" family telling me that transsexuality is wrong for so many years, I was lead to believe them to be right. We try all sort of things to "convince" ourselves that we're not. Maybe a relationship, or a new career will "keep things at bay" for a while, and eventually the thoughts will go away.

* but since when can other people's expectations make you not realize that you're trans? *

We know, but at the same time we do not know. "What is too painful - we 'choose' to forget"

All we are doing now here, is chewing on our gap in perception.

Will you ever know what a hostage feels, a prisoner, someone in a gulag?
No, you will not unless you been there.

Note and remember; "We can not understand (ultimately) what we can not feel"

Simple as that it is.

Axelle
PS: A lot of righteous attitudes are growing on just this fertile ground of misperception.

Right, as soon as someone comes along that knew what they want and acted accordingly, you only call them privileged and talk down to them, knowing nothing about their situation or things they went through. You make all the excuses in the world--everything is convenient. You say you knew from a young age to validate your feelings, then you say you didn't know so you can't be blamed for deceiving people. Maybe you should seek treatment for multiple personality disorder. Whatever. All I see is a bunch of excuses to insulate yourself from guilt. It's all society's fault. It's all your family's fault. I bet that's really comforting to the people you hurt.

Quote from: Axélle on August 13, 2011, 01:25:10 PM
PS: A lot of righteous attitudes are growing on just this fertile ground of misperception.

I love my boyfriend and I can't imagine taking so much of his life and just wasting it. So when I see people having done that and still only feeling sorry for themselves it bothers me. This is not a trans issue and being a victim doesn't give you the right to victimize.

Quote from: pretty on August 13, 2011, 01:37:49 PM
Right, as soon as someone comes along that knew what they want and acted accordingly, you only call them privileged and talk down to them, knowing nothing about their situation or things they went through. You make all the excuses in the world--everything is convenient. You say you knew from a young age to validate your feelings, then you say you didn't know so you can't be blamed for deceiving people. Maybe you should seek treatment for multiple personality disorder. Whatever. All I see is a bunch of excuses to insulate yourself from guilt. It's all society's fault. It's all your family's fault. I bet that's really comforting to the people you hurt.

I don't know who that's directed to, but I'll have you know that I never hurt anybody because of my identity.  All but one of my relationships ended for issues that had nothing to do with my being trans.

1. After five years together, she decided to start college and dumped me for a new guy a week later
2. Two-month rebound relationship that just didn't work out; she left for another guy
3. Only lasted a week because she was convinced I was gay since I shied away from sex
4. After a year together, she left because I was more effeminate than she was (and because she wanted to date another guy)
5. Divorced after 2.5 years because we were about 100% incompatible across every conceivable dimension

Perhaps you could argue that 3 and 4 were relationships heavily affected by my internal struggles, but there was much more going on.  Also, notice the trend?  I never left any of them.  So I can't see how I hurt them by being selfish and leaving.  3/5 of my relationships ended when the girl I was with found someone else.  Pretty cruddy record if you ask me.  And for the record, my issues of being trans and being attracted to males were pushed so deeply into my psyche because of years living in fear as a vulnerable child that turned into years as a timid adult.  I wasn't even out to myself, much less anyone else.  Only my last relationship (the marriage) was entered into because I was starting to understand what was inside of me.  But we both screwed up, we acknowledge that, and now we're best of friends (I'd be makeup shopping with her right this very minute if something hadn't come up, since we usually hang out several times a week).

So no, I will not allow myself for one second to believe that I hurt them because of the true self I repressed.  If I was conscious of my own identity, I would maybe entertain the notion.  But if I was conscious of my identity, I would have started living years earlier than I did.  I wouldn't have taken crap jobs that I didn't care about.  I wouldn't have spent 10 years trying to live apart from all humanity.  And I certainly would have transitioned and dated guys.

It takes great strength to go through this, and I didn't find strength until late in life.  And yes, I will blame my abusive parents who would have rather killed me than looked at me, thank you very much.  They did all they could to ruin my life so that the little reminder of my dad's previous marriage would just kill herself and go away.  And no, I won't forgive them either.  They can just rot as far as I'm concerned.

They're out of my life.  They no longer have power over me.

Well, perception gap as I said.

You (pretty) just fail to imagine, it's either black, or white. Sounds as if we were talking law here?

Hon you say,
* Maybe you should seek treatment for multiple personality disorder. *
You seriously suggesting such some 20 plus years ago?
YOU ARE HAVING JUST NO IDEA!

You'd have electroshock and "fly over the cuckoos nest" that's all you get.

Yet it is interesting to see how so many of a younger generation just can not seem to 'tune' into that.
All you get is a guilt trip. I, as little as Zoë would put THAT rucksack back on.

So I do understand THIS situation, some others... well, I won't hold my breath.

Learned my lesson well.

Axelle

Quote from: pretty on August 13, 2011, 01:37:49 PM
Right, as soon as someone comes along that knew what they want and acted accordingly, you only call them privileged and talk down to them, knowing nothing about their situation or things they went through. You make all the excuses in the world--everything is convenient. You say you knew from a young age to validate your feelings, then you say you didn't know so you can't be blamed for deceiving people. Maybe you should seek treatment for multiple personality disorder. Whatever. All I see is a bunch of excuses to insulate yourself from guilt. It's all society's fault. It's all your family's fault. I bet that's really comforting to the people you hurt.

I love my boyfriend and I can't imagine taking so much of his life and just wasting it. So when I see people having done that and still only feeling sorry for themselves it bothers me. This is not a trans issue and being a victim doesn't give you the right to victimize.

Hmmm, I don't recall talking down to anyone.  :-\

But, what I am doing is giving reason to why people may go through marriage, etc. There is no intent to hurt anybody in these relationships. The relationships fail because of incompatibility. Do you think that without knowing you're transsexual, that you're going to be incompatible?

I did say privileged, because you found out who you were, and acted on it. Some of us have not had that luxury, and came to realise after relationships have been started.

Am I justifying hurt feelings? No. Am I explaining why it happens? Yes. I can understand if people are doing it intentionally, but that's not what we're talking about here.

It's odd to me that you're so quick to judge, considering who we are. I thought we would need to be more open-minded people.

well this isn't in a relationship or with a partner, but often i find myself attracted to guys in a way that's very difficult to separate from sexual attraction. i'm straight, but i have serious male "body envy". i get so jealous of my friends and friends boyfriends bodies and often catch myself checking them out. it's really awkward...

Same with me, ryan. Of course in the other direction ;)
When i was younger it was quite a task for me to sort this things out..... And sadly, i failed sometimes.
For me it was a strange mix of feelings, being attracted to someone, a need for feeling socially normal,
loneliness, the need to bond emotionally with people..... To sort that out was not easy, altough i had to learn very early to be emotionally self-sufficient and "classical" patterns of relationships -straight or gay- clearly never were an option for me

From the age of nine until I was in my early 20's I lived with the fear of certain death and rape if I came out to my family.
I didn't understand that when the bible says to stone people like me that such things typicaly no longer happened. I really believed I would be killed by my family for this. I repressed as best I could for many many years.

I did not however lie to my spouse and pretend to be a man to hir. I told Sevan I had GID before we became an item.
not every one of us who came out late in life after being married kept it a secret. Allot of women here lived as men, but their wife knew for years before they came out to the world.

Also some of us have this issue so repressed they don't understand they hid it even from themselves until they have lived a lifetime as a man and have fathered children. How terrible of an expreiance these women must have to be sidelined with a disorder they didn't realise they had until they were so well ensconed in a male life that coming out will literaly ruin everything they have worked for for a life time. Yet they come out anyways, because they have to.

It isn't always a cut and dried thing.

@Zoë Natasha:your childhood sounds like mine........ Glad you survived.
@ pretty: idk how old you are,my guess would be late teens / early 20s?
I am 33 and there is no way to.compare my growing up in the 80s in provincial austria to growing up today. There is much more.inforamtion available and there is a different way of dealing with diversity in children. My deal as a child was simple as that: conform or die. You get constantly beaten to pulp and become suicidal at the ripe.age of 7? Tough ->-bleeped-<-, you are bringing it on yourself. Be normal. It was along hard road from there to a point where living,not mere survival became an issue again. Let alone dealing with relationships and so on. And that was 25 years ago. I cant imagine dealing with being a trans child 40 or 50 years ago. I think you judge too hard. Having grs at 20 after having lived as a girl since age 4 is not the only valid solution.

Quote from: versuchsanordnung on August 14, 2011, 12:49:34 PM
@Zoë Natasha:your childhood sounds like mine........ Glad you survived.
@ pretty: idk how old you are,my guess would be late teens / early 20s?
I am 33 and there is no way to.compare my growing up in the 80s in provincial austria to growing up today. There is much more.inforamtion available and there is a different way of dealing with diversity in children. My deal as a child was simple as that: conform or die. You get constantly beaten to pulp and become suicidal at the ripe.age of 7? Tough ->-bleeped-<-, you are bringing it on yourself. Be normal. It was along hard road from there to a point where living,not mere survival became an issue again. Let alone dealing with relationships and so on. And that was 25 years ago. I cant imagine dealing with being a trans child 40 or 50 years ago. I think you judge too hard. Having grs at 20 after having lived as a girl since age 4 is not the only valid solution.

My thoughts exactly (and life expereience too)...

what  was the question again? 

When I was diagnosed with GID my therapist said that I  was living my womanhood thru my wives and girlfriends.   When shopping I would find them clothes that I liked and dress them instead of myself.  I was using them by proxy. 


Donna

Quote from: Donna Elaine on August 14, 2011, 03:33:00 PM
what  was the question again? 

When I was diagnosed with GID my therapist said that I  was living my womanhood thru my wives and girlfriends.   When shopping I would find them clothes that I liked and dress them instead of myself.  I was using them by proxy. 


Donna

Seems to be a common theme amongst the late in life crowd.

It might be a bit creepy but it got us through a rough time.

Quote from: cynthialee on August 14, 2011, 03:42:42 PM
Seems to be a common theme amongst the late in life crowd.

Probably true!  Whenever my ex and I went out shopping for her, we'd both start out in the store.  But as soon as she went into the dressing room, she pretty much stayed there while I went to find more stuff for her to try on. :laugh:  To this day, she credits me with finding things she never would have worn in a million years, but absolutely loves now.

Zoe you are very pretty.  My wife is a very good person and very pretty and very intelligent.  I truly love her.  As youngster I was beat at home and so was my sister and mom.  Mom and dad are dying but dad is in charge.  He moved away from my family 3 years ago.  I call and he does not call back.  Mom is very ill and can not get out of bed.

I told wife three years ago.  She is wonderful intelligent woman.  She is ashamed of me.

Past two weeks:
1. Had pink nail polish on and she told me to stay home or take it off.  I took it off and volunteered to help her at school.
2. Wife took me to store and helped me pick out female clothes.  It was amazing!
3. Wife told me to take off scarf or stay home from Church.  I complied and wore a tie.

My wife is giving me "conditional" love.  She is ashamed of me and I am ashamed of me.  She is helping me then stopping me.  I am totally confused.  Why is she torturing me? 

I was wrong.  I tried to keep it in check but failed.  I now argue 24/7 with myself.  My wife is a wonderful woman and I should divorce her to spare both of us from pain.  I do love her.  She is my soul mate and I can not stop crying to think I will be without her for rest of my days!

* But as soon as she went into the dressing room, she pretty much stayed there while I went to find more stuff for her to try on.   To this day, she credits me with finding things she never would have worn in a million years, but absolutely loves now.*
Zoë,
Gosh that is/was SO me!
Yet, it only works for so long, being your GG partner's 'best girl friend' - after all they WERE/ARE looking for a (cis-)male with few exceptions. And who can blame anyone if things don't work out in the long run...

Axelle
PS: All those parallels in behaviour are almost spooky!

Wendy,
*My wife is a wonderful woman and I should divorce her to spare both of us from pain.  I do love her.  She is my soul mate and I can not stop crying to think I will be without her for rest of my days! *

That is the exact condition I was in with my wife (long ex now) when being my proxy, though unknown to both though.
Had this un-dieing love idea, she'd hold my hand when I be dieing one day! Heavy!!

I adored her for what she was, a GG, giving birth, JUST BEING THE FEMALE I SO YEARNED TO BE MYSELF, yet she actually despised me by that time.
Getting irritable if I wanted to touched her, same with # 2 (gf) years later, BTW.

"Girl friends" (MtF) just make for crap husbands most all of the time, and who can blame any straight GG?!
Took me years and years to let go of that 'proxy' I gave her (she NEVER had asked for!).
Since that time, when I got over it finally --- we ARE friends now, girl friends, and very good ones.

Axelle

Quote from: Axélle on August 15, 2011, 12:07:11 AM
I adored her for what she was, a GG, giving birth, JUST BEING THE FEMALE I SO YEARNED TO BE MYSELF, yet she actually despised me by that time.
Getting irritable if I wanted to touched her, same with # 2 (gf) years later, BTW.

"Girl friends" (MtF) just make for crap husbands most all of the time, and who can blame any straight GG?!"
Took me years and years to let go of that 'proxy' I gave her (she NEVER had asked for!).
Since that time, when I got over it finally --- we ARE friends now, girl friends, and very good ones.

Yes I do want to touch my friend and she flips out.  She does not care if I wear those clothes just not with her.  She does not care if I do not go with her to church, or teach Sunday School, or volunteer.

I do not think she will legally divorce me.  We are spiritually divorced.

We would be very good friends if we divorced and maybe she would feel comfortable with me.  However she expects that I would become a model woman and all my bad habits would magically disappear.  Financially it is not good to split.

Axelle wrote, "Girl friends(MtF) just make for crap husbands most all of the time, and who can blame any straight GG?! "  Axelle you are getting 10 negative points from me.  That statement is so true.  I definitely am not a man.  Almost no wife stays with a MTF that kept it from her (about 5% stay).  Now I need to divorce her and I am an emotional mess?

I have a nightmare of being a "whatever" that is homeless, unemployed , and divorced.  I am not a bad person.  Why must we lose so much to live as we feel?  Why is there such a push to find a solution? Why not just let it go?  Many must just let it go.

Quote from: wendy on August 15, 2011, 02:41:09 PM
I do not think she will legally divorce me.  We are spiritually divorced.

She can contest it to her hearts content, but she can't stop you from divorcing her.

If the relationship is toxic to your wellbeing, then why are you still in it?

Quote from: regan on August 15, 2011, 03:04:51 PM
She can contest it to her hearts content, but she can't stop you from divorcing her.

If the relationship is toxic to your wellbeing, then why are you still in it?

I totally agree. Obviously only you can decide what's best for you, Wendy. But, I can't imagine any good coming from it. And, I'm wondering if your need for the drink comes from not being "allowed" to be yourself. It certainly can't be helpful. That's for sure. I'm really sorry for what you're going through here. I really hope you can sort this out, and my heart goes out to you. Please talk to her.

Wife would grant me a divorce if I wanted one.

We are together because it is financially beneficial.

We have a role reversal at home.

It is my fault that we are together.

We still love each other but both of us have lost respect for me.

I have so much anger inside me.
..............................

I find myself sometimes studying a pretty lady at store while I'm shopping.

I catalog details in my head.

Never wanted to lose anything let alone everything to transition.   I am sure my big breasts and flaming style got me fired at last job.  However I was good just different.  Now I don't work.  Finances are deteriorating so that house will not pay for itself.  Wife wants a man which I am not.  So I am at a crossroad and appear to be moving slowly ahead.

I realize there is more to life than transitioning.

I am problem.

The bottom-line?
No one other then yourself can make that decision for you - to be who YOU are. Never mind what everyone and his uncle has in mind for you!

Note: change is hard and painful - BUT ALSO creates new opportunities!

Both of you have not yet suffered enough, - else there would have been change already.

Just bear in mind honey --- you are not 24 any more and can go on procrastinating as if there was no tomorrow.

Would you want to de-transition?
Have a boob reduction?
ONCE AGAIN try that old worn out number, being that male you not?
Only you can answer that. ONLY YOU!

Emotional growth cometh with pain, and then some... the way things always been.

Thoughts from the far South,
Axelle

Quote from: Axélle on August 18, 2011, 11:27:45 AM
The bottom-line?
No one other then yourself can make that decision for you - to be who YOU are. Never mind what everyone and his uncle has in mind for you!

Note: change is hard and painful - BUT ALSO creates new opportunities!

Both of you have not yet suffered enough, - else there would have been change already.

Just bear in mind honey --- you are not 24 any more and can go on procrastinating as if there was no tomorrow.

Would you want to de-transition?
Have a boob reduction?
ONCE AGAIN try that old worn out number, being that male you not?
Only you can answer that. ONLY YOU!

Emotional growth cometh with pain, and then some... the way things always been.

Thoughts from the far South,
Axelle

No I have no plans to go back.  I wish these pills would have worked magic.  Remember I shared with you my unrealistic expectations.  I do not think I am male in my mind.  It has been difficult for me to get half way up hill and I am not going back.

Wendy,
good to hear you say that.

Coming back from my afternoon meeting with cis-friends was one of those: "Do you really have to do this...???" occasions.

One can start to feel rather lonely, spiritually, in friendly but essentially unsupportive environments.
Even if I'm now good to be told - HOW MANY PEOPLE ALWAYS THOUGH ME BEING GAY.
Ain't that ever so funny? Yet, to be a gay queen would suit most just fine (not me), if intersex --- oh, my, really you poor thing, ... but transsexual?!?

That is SO LIFESTYLE honey, and elective to most everyone - they just can't/won't get it.

So... we move on and talk about the latest TV soap episode.

Though baby, nobody said it be easy, eh.
Hug,
Axelle

Quote from: Axélle on August 19, 2011, 11:42:01 AM
Wendy,
good to hear you say that.

Coming back from my afternoon meeting with cis-friends was one of those: "Do you really have to do this...???" occasions.

One can start to feel rather lonely, spiritually, in friendly but essentially unsupportive environments.
Even if I'm now good to be told - HOW MANY PEOPLE ALWAYS THOUGH ME BEING GAY.
Ain't that ever so funny? Yet, to be a gay queen would suit most just fine (not me), if intersex --- oh, my, really you poor thing, ... but transsexual?!?

That is SO LIFESTYLE honey, and elective to most everyone - they just can't/won't get it.

So... we move on and talk about the latest TV soap episode.

Though baby, nobody said it be easy, eh.
Hug,
Axelle

I only tell CISgender with a need to know.  Do not expect them to understand.  I find being transgender confusing to me.  Community argues among its exceedingly small population.

Axelle you have suffered enough.  Might you send me a note from Thailand?  Tell me if you woke up and said, " Wow!"

Big shots I wrote never got back to me.  Guess business is too good.  Did not write your surgeon.
....................

Really feel bad for wife.  She now cries when I am silly.  I used to make her laugh.  I do love and miss her. 

Hi hon,
* Axelle you have suffered enough.  Might you send me a note from Thailand?  Tell me if you woke up and said, " Wow!" *
Will do babe!

* Did not write your surgeon. *
Plenty of times --- and ALWAYS was grated a salient answer.

* I do love and miss her *
Actually, ever asked HER a simple question: "What can I do for you, being who I am?"

Facetiously speaking --- she just might hate your pink nail polish?!? Eh.
If she hates your fabulousness, yes, you in sh*t-street.

Axelle

Quote from: Axélle on August 20, 2011, 06:41:51 AM
* I do love and miss her *
Actually, ever asked HER a simple question: "What can I do for you, being who I am?"

Facetiously speaking --- she just might hate your pink nail polish?!? Eh.
If she hates your fabulousness, yes, you in sh*t-street.

Thanks Axelle. 

Actually there is much I can do.  First my wife expects me to go out and earn a good living.
Second she expects me to fix cars and repair home.
Third she expects me to present male when I am with her.

She is not interested in a sexual relationship at any level.

To some extent her expectations are reasonable.

.........................
Hot pink finger nail polish is too "out" for me.  I use a clear pink tone on my fingernails.

My wife rarely does nail polish on her nails.  She is very pretty and feminine but not frilly more Tomboyish.

I am not very masculine or feminine.  I am more gender neutral in my presentation and mannerisms.

..................
I am finding it useful to "test" things.

.............
I find I am uncomfortable  doing new things and some things I do become comfortable.  This seems a reasonable reaction since I move out of my comfort zone and have to be prepared for "negative" reactions if and when they come.

...............

My wife has been a great friend and one week I want to get away from her and get on with my life and next week she is such a great friend.

My slightly autistic behavior has complicated my relationships and resolution of gender issues.  I have reached a crossroad and sitting at intersection is not a good choice. Staying "somewhat" male seems easier but does not feel right.  Taking other path feels right but is very scary.  I have a very good wife and she has allowed me to cope with my gender issues for years even though she did not know I had gender issues.  Life's little hiccups have somehow caused my coping mechanisms to fail and I have shut down.

Quote from: Axélle on July 31, 2011, 09:20:42 AM
Has anyone come to a similar realization, i.e. using ones partner as a "surrogate"?
Which is of course unfair to both parties involved IMHO.
YMMV

Axelle

Ironically, quite the opposite. Getting that close to a woman was what made me realize that I might just be one.