Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Mass walk-out at trans woman's funeral
The Washington Blade
By Lou Chibbaro Jr.
02 August, 2011


http://www.washingtonblade.com/2011/08/02/mass-walk-out-at-trans-woman%E2%80%99s-funeral/ (http://www.washingtonblade.com/2011/08/02/mass-walk-out-at-trans-woman%E2%80%99s-funeral/)


Remarks by a pastor who presided over the July 27 funeral service for Lashai Mclean, a transgender woman who was shot to death in D.C. last month, prompted as many as 100 people in attendance to walk out of the church in protest, according to activists who were present.

"Basically, he said that God let her get killed so that people could get saved," said D.C. gay activist and comedian Sampson McCormack, who attended the service. "And that came after somebody, I think it was a deacon, said when you live a certain lifestyle this is the consequence you have to pay."

I am too incensed for words.

Ugh, preachers.

Very sad.
Even in death we are insulted.

Just another arsehole that has this "direct" wire to God Almighty?

One of the sort that suggested it be best to: "Put on your best suit and shoot yourself in the head..." as a far better solution then to transition.

If that's the Holy Spirit at work, I'm a Holy Cow sitting at my laptop.

What can you do?
Try hard to forgive them for their insurmountable self-righteousness.

Axelle

That's christians for you.

Well I guess "christians" in inverted comas and without the capital letter.
Though they ARE believers, you can give them THAT.

Poor souls,
Axelle

Quote from: pebbles on August 03, 2011, 02:58:37 AM
That's christians for you.

I understand where you are coming from. But let us not make the same mistake. Being intolerant of others is the same insult, no matter what we are intolerant of.

Cindy

I don't care if someone totally hates the person for whatever reason, it is just wrong to disrespect the dead at their funeral  >:(  IMO

*Bad preacher, NO sacrament*  :P

Stories like these always pisses me off. To me, it's basic human respect you know? Something that everyone should know of. However, it's obvious that not even knows what respect is.

And yeah "Christians". I wouldn't say all believers in the Christian religion are like this (I know this from growing up in a White Christina Republican dominate community). But unfortunately, it seems like that most of the time, especially if you're apart of the LGBTQ community. :(

I would have walked out too, after giving him a serve.  Total lack of love and compassion.

Karen.

It does hurt and no, not all Christians are like that. It also hurts when people here make blanket assumptions like this.

Hey, welcome back Val,
re.: walk-out, and not your funeral, GREAT!

had second thoughts?

Axelle
PS: Sorry, just missed you there for a short while :-)

Quote from: Randi on August 03, 2011, 06:56:46 AM
It does hurt and no, not all Christians are like that. It also hurts when people here make blanket assumptions like this.

Unfortunately there is a very vocal segment of Christianity that has brought on that kind of assumption by their behavior. I do not condemn anyone for their opinions about christians.

It is sad that many of these "christians" turn to the Bible to justify their behavior. "Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man." (Luke 6:22) They think that by being hated, they must be doing god's will. What they forget is this clause: "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me." (Matthew 5:11) They can't see the implication if the accusations are NOT false. They do not pay attention to what Peter wrote: "But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God." ( 1 Peter 2:20) There is no justification in the Bible for doing evil to people and thinking god blesses you.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 03, 2011, 08:59:23 AM
I'm not sure I would have left the church. If there is a spirit, and she was watching, would they want everyone to leave? And be left "alone" with the fool giving the sermon?

I imagine she would have walked out too.

Now here's a religious trend I can fully support.

Thank you Lisbeth, you handle the truth very well and I for one appreciate it!!

Quote from: Randi on August 03, 2011, 06:26:13 PM
Thank you Lisbeth, you handle the truth very well and I for one appreciate it!!

You're welcome.

Quote from: Cindy James on August 03, 2011, 03:22:59 AM
I understand where you are coming from. But let us not make the same mistake. Being intolerant of others is the same insult, no matter what we are intolerant of.

Cindy

To say Christians = Bigotry is equatable to saying Birds = Flying, Sure maybe not every single one dose but they are the exceptions to the rule. Just look at your legal system things like prop 7 pass because WHAT religion organized a hate campaign against you. The republican party whitch half of your country vote for and openly dispise you are accociated with whitch religion.

It's naiive to try and defend such a religion.

I don't think Cindy was defending the religion, but defending the individual practitioners of it. There are a quiet majority of Christians who are just getting along with people and don't worship hate. It's just a pity they're so quiet. As the saying goes, religion is like a swimming pool: all the noise is at the shallow end.

[cue Tekla-Snark™ :)]

Quote from: pebbles on August 04, 2011, 02:30:05 AM

To say Christians = Bigotry is equatable to saying Birds = Flying, Sure maybe not every single one dose but they are the exceptions to the rule. Just look at your legal system things like prop 7 pass because WHAT religion organized a hate campaign against you. The republican party whitch half of your country vote for and openly dispise you are accociated with whitch religion.

It's naiive to try and defend such a religion.

I'm Australian so I'm not sure that  the USA references are relevant to me.
What I was trying to say is that 'we' have to find ways of overcoming the hate or intolerance cycle. I certainly was not 'picking' on you or your opinion.

There are many birds that don't fly, I am not in any way religious, but I think there are Christians who are not bigots, some have posted on this thread.

Cindy

Hi.

I  have had over 50 years of being involved with many  different groups  ((christian ))  & not all are like this,    tho many are , & it will depend on the individual person & yes i know many 100;s who attend meetings .

Can i say many of the teachers pastors are very dogmatic about what they have to say, & what they ....HAVE ...been taught , the person concerned shows he should not be in this postion of power. no matter what he thinks he / she should know better than to run down a person because they are different  ,,

I know what its like i have & do talk to & with these people they are blind to the truth about LOVE...kindness & accepting of others like my self who are so different ,

As one who is very well known & meets many people i can show others we are real we are people of difference & can be a part of socity as  i prove time & time again where ever i go.

My self i pity these people because of the way they are, & yes i may not like what they do & say i will still love them as i'v been taught ,

even when i'm missalined or have things said about who i am. dont hate these people,  i know its not what i'd like to see ,

So can i say,   stand tall & live life to its fullest & by doing this we can show others that we are as much a part of this place as those who say things against us .

Take heart & dont     let it get to you,

...noeleena...

Quote from: Padma on August 04, 2011, 02:36:25 AM
I don't think Cindy was defending the religion, but defending the individual practitioners of it. There are a quiet majority of Christians who are just getting along with people and don't worship hate. It's just a pity they're so quiet. As the saying goes, religion is like a swimming pool: all the noise is at the shallow end.

[cue Tekla-Snark™ :)]

Pepole talk about this silent religious majority To ask me to belive in that is the same as asking me to belive in a god. Silent undetectable but apprently everywhere Your just compelled to beliving in it without any additional evidence. it's the story the tiny minority tell themselves to not feel like oddballs.

It's not just the USA I live in the UK personally I only gave US examples. I actively sought out christians in their various enviroments after having a bad encounter, They sympathized... With my attacker.

Yes I'm aware I hold a prejudice I really don't really care, unlike them I'm not pretending to be rightous or better than a christian. My hostility is motivated by self-preservation and the experience and observations of their own biblical doctrine and behaviour.

Christians are bigots just as their bible instructs them to be. unless an indivdual overtly prooves otherwise expect them to do things like the religious figure in this story.

I'm also in the UK, and I have had plenty of experience of christians who just get on with being decent people - what I don't like is that more of them won't get off their arses and be decent enough to challenge the indecent ones. From what you say, I can see why you feel the way you do, we can only really go by our personal experiences. And I've had my share of bigotry from them too, as well as from Jews (my "own people"), muslims, buddhists, and atheists. Bigotry is sadly ecumenical.

A lot of the time, it's the peer-pressure rather than the religion that makes people close ranks in the stupid way they do, the fear of losing the "community" they're part of. My mother had a Japanese lodger years ago who committed suicide after his fiancée broke up with him on a holiday (or possibly because he was actually gay, and was about to go back to Japan and have to get married - depends whose story you hear). My mother went to the (Japanese Christian) funeral, and the lad's mother stood up in the middle of the service and said, "...and now my son is burning in hell for taking his own life." Any "community" that would make a mother think and say that at her son's funeral is not worthy of the name.

Quote from: pebbles on August 04, 2011, 02:30:05 AM

To say Christians = Bigotry is equatable to saying Birds = Flying, Sure maybe not every single one dose but they are the exceptions to the rule. Just look at your legal system things like prop 7 pass because WHAT religion organized a hate campaign against you. The republican party whitch half of your country vote for and openly dispise you are accociated with whitch religion.

It's naiive to try and defend such a religion.

That's a bit like saying, all transgender, are divorced men with big chins, enormous boobs and gawdy makup, standing on street corners, giving it away for free.

It's very sad that there are so many problems in America, but in every instance of such problems the priority is not christianity or religion, it's to maintain what these people preceive as being American traditions.

I'm no expert of prop 7 but I understand that the reason it passed was because those the backers waged a strong campaign claiming that children were at risk, while those who should have opposed it preferred to sit around arguing which end of their eggs they should crack in the morning, and who is more important. In other words, those that won, did so because they deserved to win while those those that didn't, didn't.

Any calls to religion were distinctly muted. In fact there were claims, after the event, when some who feared being exposed for the stupid frauds they are, rushed around looking for anything to launch as belated counter attack, that the principal backers of this measure were indeed the Mormons though little had been made of that issue during the campaign, leading to accusations that they tried to cover it up. (All of this information has been gleaned from a number of different sources, each reporting on this issue from a different perspective. What every report seems to agree upon is that the US conservatives won fairl and squarely, which, sadly, was true. Becuse those that should be opposing them and standing up for individual liberty for all, regardless of identity, preferr to continue arguing over who is less deserving of equality).

The Mormans are not Christians. They don't accept the Bible as definative. They don't recognise the teachings of Jesus as paramount, or at all. Prop 7 suceeded because we didn't organise. We didn't and don't organise because we can't stop arguing among ourselves.

The US Republicans are exactly the same. Their objective is to maintain what they see as American traditions. That means, their traditional religion, (happy clappy, fire and brimstone), their traditional medicine, (country doctor types), along with their traditonal freedoms, such as carrying a gun and not paying tax. Each is equally important to them.

I have a feeling this story will turn out to be yet another example of some motivated individual making up a lie because they don't have anything else to say.

Adition. I've done a quick search for some of the information I picked about proposition 8, namely the apparent ambavalance of those opposed. Sadly, I can find very little either way. I know I read it in a number of sources. Under the circumstances, I will need to conceed that I have no presentable evidence.

However, the substantive point remains, that these people won because they were better organised and the Mormons are not Christians, even though they claim to be.

Not all Christians are bigots

Sure, I have had bad experiences with Christians who are rather bigoted and look down their noses at me with judge mentally conditioned eyes... I have also been looked down upon by other groups... But there are also good experiences with Christian folks and other groups who have been understanding and accepting of me

I've taken the time to show by example that I am a kind, helpful person who means them no harm... A local hate group was plotting to bash my brains out with a sledge hammer, a Mormon woman overheard them and notified police... The haters didn't make it within 20 feet of me before the cops said hello

Being a decent person is not defined by belonging to a particular group, but by being a decent person

Actually the proposition system is very hard for people unfamiliar with the real workings of direct democracy to understand, beginning with the all important wording.  If you support gay marriage do you support prop 8 or oppose it?  Here's how the anti-marriage vote breaks down.

- Catholics and Mormons who found they both agreed on something.  They both strongly opposed something sexual.  Color me shocked.
- Gays too busy celebrating their great win and holding an election-long victory party only to lose the parts of LA they had to carry.
- Gays who wanted no part of it (a larger group than you might think) or any part of the continuing effort to make gay look all middle-class.
- Your basic evangelical/Baptist/Mega Church/fundamentalists/4 Square church types.  They were not the organized section of the religious stormtroopers,^* they never are, but they voted with them.
- Your Tea Party voters.
- Your basic (however few of them there are left) Main Street business type - insurance agency, Rotary Club, County Club, balanced budgets, no foreign wars, no special favors for another either, (especially people who are always trying to be 'different') - Republican party members.
- Weak minded people who were actually swayed by the ads, one way or the other.  (And the ads really sucked).
- For all California looks extremely liberal from far away because all you see is LA and SF,  up close we know it's LA/San Diego in the South, SF/Bay about halfway up the coast, and Oklahoma all in between.
- A lot of people who just don't like gays.  Or marriage.  Or the proposition system.  Or voting.  Or: Who knows? it's California. And I'm sure that a bunch of people voted one way thinking they were voting the other but that probably balances out with the people who did the exact opposite.

Oh, and if you supported same sex marriage you voted against prop 8.

And that covers it, pretty much don't it?  Blame the churches.  Blame the Republicans.  Blame the way the bill was written (again).  But the real reason that proposition went down to defeat is the way the voting went in the predominantly African-American and Latin areas, and it didn't get any freaking votes at all in the Latino hoods, and only very weak support in the African-American precincts.  THAT'S really where it lost.  It lost a racial war in a year of historic high turnouts in those communities. 

And everyone else in the world watches this and doesn't get it.  Why they 'got' gay marriage so simply, so easy.  Why the general Parliament of the council of ministers of the glorious republic just voted it it.  Easy-peasy.  Well, what the  the general Parliament of the council of ministers of the glorious republic voted in, they can vote out just as fast.  By the time this comes to pass in the US all of the branches will be in line and it's going to be impossible to change.  It's a different way of making law.  Prop 8 will, in the end because of the court cases, be something that those who originally supported are going to come to hate.  Prop 8 finally got the fine points of law argued in Federal Court, to wit: "Is there any difference between gay and straight marriage?"  "No"  "OK, then you can't forbid it." 


Here's a bonus for my fans who have read this far.  What really cracks me up about this - and a bunch of other fights going on in the Christian church around these issues - is that you have groups of people demanding that their behavior no longer be considered a sin.  Yet, the formation principal of Christianity is that everyone is a sinner, all have fallen short of the glory of god.  And now you really have a dedicated group(s) of people saying: Nope.  Not us.  We are not sinners.  It's the end of the line in so many ways.  When people walk out of a Christian service because they are being called sinners, well, what's left for there to be a Christian service about?  Half of the Catholic mass was to remind you that you you were not worthy, and your a sinner and all that.


* - The evangelicals in the US are not organized at all, while the Roman Catholic Church in America (and it's kind of its own thing) and the CJCLDS out of Salt Lake City are two of the most highly organized and rehearsed to within an inch of their lives organizations in the history of the world.

Quote from: Lisbeth on August 03, 2011, 04:28:51 PM
Unfortunately there is a very vocal segment of Christianity that has brought on that kind of assumption by their behavior. I do not condemn anyone for their opinions about christians.
There is no justification in the Bible for doing evil to people and thinking god blesses you.

I agree with this.  People who are like that make all Christians look bad.  About a million Aztecs and Native American peoples can attest to this as well; their blood was supposedly spilt 'in the name of God' as well.  How cruel and horrible that evil people will use God as justifications for being cruel and oppressive.

Quote from: pebbles on August 04, 2011, 04:21:47 AM
Pepole talk about this silent religious majority To ask me to belive in that is the same as asking me to belive in a god. Silent undetectable but apprently everywhere Your just compelled to beliving in it without any additional evidence. it's the story the tiny minority tell themselves to not feel like oddballs.

It's not just the USA I live in the UK personally I only gave US examples. I actively sought out christians in their various enviroments after having a bad encounter, They sympathized... With my attacker.

Yes I'm aware I hold a prejudice I really don't really care, unlike them I'm not pretending to be rightous or better than a christian. My hostility is motivated by self-preservation and the experience and observations of their own biblical doctrine and behaviour.
Christians are bigots just as their bible instructs them to be. unless an indivdual overtly prooves otherwise expect them to do things like the religious figure in this story.

This kind of talk is uncalled for and hurts me very much, not that it will matter; you've got a chip on your shoulder the size of New Zealand, so you're not going to care whether you hurt my feelings or not; you believe what you feel is justified, and I can't and won't stop you from that.  Just try to be more considerate in the future, and instead of speaking angry words, reach out, and say, "I'm hurting.  Someone has hurt me so deeply, and I could use a hand."  It seems to me that you tried to do this, but it just didn't work out.  Sometimes it doesn't, religion has nothing to do with that.   :-\ 

It hurts me that you feel this hatred out of 'self-preservation,' it should never be that way.  Hating something doesn't preserve you anyway, it only hurts you inside and makes you miserable.  Those jerks aren't gonna care if you hate them or not; obviously if they're going to be mean to other people in the first place they don't care about other people's feelings anyway.

No amount of me saying anything will make you think any differently, but know that this boy's heart goes out to you, and hopes that your wounds will someday heal, because we all hurt from something or another, and saying cruel things about others is not the way to make the pain go away.

Listen to what our very own Cindy James had to say about this.  To lump all Christians in with these horrible fools and hating them all makes you no better than these cruel and intolerant people are.  The people who do these horrible things are evil, you and I both know it.  And the fact that they wish to soil MY faith's name with their cruelty sickens me. 

And you wanna know something?  They'd still be total a-holes whether they were Christian or not.  They would still be uppity, holier-than-thou asswads who think they're better than anyone else.

Wanna know something else?  For you to say that the Bible instructs people to be bigots simply shows your ignorance of my religion; you only know what you've seen in others who claim to represent that faith.  Those people who were cruel to you were jerks and they were ignorant, too.  I study God's Word at home, in the original languages of which it was written, away from other Christians, because so many people are ignorant of their own faith, which saddens me more than you know.

Guess what?  I'm Christian, and these 'silent few' might not be so silent after all.  Here's a Christian saying we're all human, we're all oddballs, and no one's better than anyone else, and I'm not self-righteous, I'm honest. 

If you need someone to talk to when you're upset, just PM me and I'll be there for you.  Thank you for listening, if you happened to take the time to read this. 

I'm in the UK and I have seen very little of that kind of bigotry. I've seen arguments within churches over their position but I have seen people on both sides of the fence willing to help people in need.

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 05, 2011, 05:36:31 PM
I'm in the UK and I have seen very little of that kind of bigotry. I've seen arguments within churches over their position but I have seen people on both sides of the fence willing to help people in need.

A Buddhist friend of mine once helped my fiancé and I at a local church's food bank.  Other Christians who were also attending asked him (politely) how could he not feel uncomfortable helping a religious group like this?

His response has stuck with me for many years: "Charity is charity, regardless of who's doing it and for what reason.  I'm here because I want to help people, and because you want to help people, too.  Now help me get this crate of milk into that freezer over there so it'll be cold when we can give it to somebody who needs it."   :laugh:

Thank you Sage for stating the TRUTH so eloquently. No matter what kind of clothing they wear-a bigot is still a bigot and thinks he/she is right. That does not make them right in their assumptions does it? Well thought out response-thanks again!  :icon_dance: :eusa_clap:

Quote from: Randi on August 05, 2011, 08:53:28 PM
Thank you Sage for stating the TRUTH so eloquently. No matter what kind of clothing they wear-a bigot is still a bigot and thinks he/she is right. That does not make them right in their assumptions does it? Well thought out response-thanks again!  :icon_dance: :eusa_clap:

Aww, you're sweet.~   ;D

I'm a Christian, but what that preacher said was inappropriate and insensitive. He's like many people who think that being transgender is a lifestyle, and it's not.                                                                                                               Gennee

Quote from: gennee on August 07, 2011, 09:44:27 AM
I'm a Christian, but what that preacher said was inappropriate and insensitive. He's like many people who think that being transgender is a lifestyle, and it's not.                                                                                                               Gennee

Even if it were, what he is claimed to have said amounted to, at the very least, mitigation.

Even if it were, what he is claimed to have said amounted to, at the very least, mitigation.

When religions no longer dictate what is right and wrong, holy and sin - then pretty much you're left with coffee, doughnuts and building that's really expensive to heat.

QuoteIt hurts me that you feel this hatred out of 'self-preservation,' it should never be that way.  Hating something doesn't preserve you anyway, it only hurts you inside and makes you miserable.  Those jerks aren't gonna care if you hate them or not; obviously if they're going to be mean to other people in the first place they don't care about other people's feelings anyway.

It's not about these angry hostile emotions feeling good. It's about them begin the only protection I have, I was naiive before I underestimated the risk I was caught off guard made in to his/their victim, I couldn't belive someone would be so bent on harming me beyond any notion of self preservation and I couldn't belive so many would support their actions... if you ask why their answer is religious.

now I'm not so stupid. They arn't remorseful they openly endorse this hostility within these churches see this story here. My anger will ensure that when I encounter them again I will be the survivor those pigs won't be laughing over my corpse.

QuoteListen to what our very own Cindy James had to say about this.  To lump all Christians in with these horrible fools and hating them all makes you no better than these cruel and intolerant people are.  The people who do these horrible things are evil, you and I both know it.  And the fact that they wish to soil MY faith's name with their cruelty sickens me. 

As I made clear I don't pretend to be justified or more mortally rightous than them. And I know I've become more like them, but as was evident in my choice to become a transsexual in respoonce to the GID threat in the first place I'd rather live on as a monster than die naiive.

QuoteI'm in the UK and I have seen very little of that kind of bigotry. I've seen arguments within churches over their position but I have seen people on both sides of the fence willing to help people in need.

Well I live in the UK and I've seen alot of this type of bigotry and I'm happy for you that you haven't. I can only urge you caution about begin complacent so your opinion dosen't end up like mine.

Quote from: tekla on August 07, 2011, 01:47:03 PM
Even if it were, what he is claimed to have said amounted to, at the very least, mitigation.

When religions no longer dictate what is right and wrong, holy and sin - then pretty much you're left with coffee, doughnuts and building that's really expensive to heat.

Once again, you're generalising.

There is nothing in any religion's doctrine, that I know of, that could justify mitigating murder. That this man, aledgedly said such a thing is a reflection upon him and his character not what he claims to represent.

that I know of, that could justify mitigating murder.

Try Christianity, it's based on murder and one of the most gruesome tortures and executions possible, hell it's their symbol.

But hey, try Jesus: Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Not to mention that gruesome deaths are prescribed by no less than god him/her/them/they/it's self.  An eye for an eye, a life for a life?

"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" (Exodus 21:22-24)

'If a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him." (Leviticus 24:19-20)

But there were/other death penalties in the law, including:
- Adultery (Lev 20:10-12, (man and woman).
- Lying about virginity. Applies to girls who are still in their fathers' homes, who lie about their virginity, and are presented to their husband as a virgin. The accused is guilty until proved innocent. (Deut 22:20-21).
- Making love to a virgin pledged to be married to another. Applies to man who deflowers virgin pledged to be married, and to the virgin if she does not call for help. (Deut 22:23-24).
- The daughter of a priest practicing prostitution (death by fire) (Lev 21:9).
- Rape of someone who is engaged. If she is not engaged you only have to marry her and give her father 50 shekels. No mention is made of the girl's opinion. (Deut 22:25).
- Men practicing bestiality. (Both man and animal die). (Lev 20:15)[4]
- Women practicing bestiality (Both woman and animal die). (Lev 20:16) [4]
- Having sex with your father's wife, as distinct from "your mother", as it was common practice for men at the time to have several wives. (both die). (Lev 20:20).
- Having sex with your daughter in law. (Lev 20:30)
- Incest. (Lev 20:17)[5]
- Male homosexuality. The girls seem to get a free .. errrr ...ride on this one. (Lev 20:13).
- Marrying a woman and her daughter. They are all burnt to death (Lev 20:14)
(A couple of these demand that the "sinners" be burnt to death rather than stoned — which was the more usual form of capital punishment.)
- Worshiping idols (Ex 22:20, Lev 20:1-5, Deut 17:2-7).
- Blasphemy (Lev 24:14-16,23).
- Breaking the Sabbath (Ex 31:14, Numb 15:32-36).
- Practicing magic (Ex 22:18).
- Being a medium or spiritualist. (stoning) (Lev 20:27).
- Trying to convert people to another religion. (stoning) (Deut 13:1-11, 18:20).
- Apostasy - If most people in a town come to believe in a different god. (Kill everybody, including animals, and burn the town.) (Deut 13:12-15)
- Giving one of your descents to Molech. Probably refers to human sacrifice and is not now commonly practiced in the west. (Lev 20:2)
- Non-priests going near the tabernacle when it is being moved. (Numb 1:51)
- Being a false prophet. (Deut 132:5, Deut 18:20, Zech 13:2-3)
- Striking your parents (Ex 21:15).
- Cursing your parents (Ex 21:17, Lev 20:9).
- Being a stubborn and rebellious son. And being a profligate and a drunkard. (stoning) (Quite a few of us might have a problem with this one)(Deut 21:18-21)
- Murder. However if a slave is beaten to death the owner is "punished" — not necessarily killed. If the slave survives the beating then there is no punishment. (Gen 9:6, Ex 21:12, Numb 35:16-21). This is part of a wide range of slavery laws in the Old and New Testament.
- Kidnapping and selling a man. This is really a law against making an Israelite a slave against his will. (Ex 21:16).
- Perjury (in certain cases) (Deut 19:15 - 21). Deut 19:20 explicitly identifies that the purpose of this is deterrence. "The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing (malicious and false testimony by one man against another) be done among you." Presumably all the other death penalties are assumed to be for deterrence as well.
- Ignoring the verdict of a judge – (or a priest!) (Deut 17:8-13).
- Not penning up a known dangerous bull, if the bull subsequently kills a man or a woman. (Ex 21:29) Both the animal and the reckless owner of the dangerous bull are to be put to death.
- Living in a city that failed to surrender to the Israelites. (Kill all the men, make the women and children slaves.) Deut 20:12-14
(I edited a list I ripped off of Wiki)

As always it never ceases to amaze me how many people who 'believe' don't have a clue as to what it is that they actually are believing in.

I'll take that as you conceeding defeat then Tekla.  :laugh:

Though you didn't need to be quite so expressive.

I'm sure you'd know more about that then I would.  I always admired the Stamper family in Sometimes a Great Notion ... whose motto "Never Give A Inch!"

As the offences you have quoted are from the Old Testament, they do not apply to Christians, Tekla.  Anyone who tries to apply them or use them as justification has missed the point of  Jesus' mission.   

As for the penalty for what amounts to corrupting children, I take it as being a warning that it is one of the most serious crimes.  Pity the member of the Christian Brothers who got 14 years in Ballarat today didn't listen, for the sake of all his victims. Hypocrisy is the worst sin there is, in my book.

Karen.   

I have to admit Kat that you are stretching here,


Karen I went to a CB school. 14 years is not enough.

I'm sure there are good CBs, never met them. But I gave several orgasms all before I knew what they were. I was often the teachers 'pet'  I was a very cute little girl/boy and they just used to move me up and down their lap. Never knew, but I just felt dirty, and I did not want to sit on teachers lap.


I do not have a religion, but if I did it would be a hell where these people just scream.
And I do forgive them, because I cannot take what they did to me in my life.
I am stronger, but I didn't need the lessons.

Cindy

Quote from: tekla on August 08, 2011, 03:41:04 AM
- Having sex with your daughter in law. (Lev 20:30)
- Incest. (Lev 20:17)[5]

However, sometimes God commands you and your sister to get your dad drunk on succeeding nights and sleep with him. See Lot.

They haven't been popular in Ballarat for few years now. Not the first one to take a holiday in a bluestone resort either.
As regards those who want to enforce Deuteronomical laws, I'd just ask them when they are going to get circumcised. I hate hypocrites.

Karen.

Quote from: justmeinoz on August 08, 2011, 04:41:59 AM
As the offences you have quoted are from the Old Testament, they do not apply to Christians, Tekla.  Anyone who tries to apply them or use them as justification has missed the point of  Jesus' mission.   

As for the penalty for what amounts to corrupting children, I take it as being a warning that it is one of the most serious crimes.  Pity the member of the Christian Brothers who got 14 years in Ballarat today didn't listen, for the sake of all his victims. Hypocrisy is the worst sin there is, in my book.

Karen.

Indeed. The incredably selective and often fabricated citing of OT laws by those in the US, especially, claiming they are supporting their religion instead of admitting they are simply frightend political types is perhaps most evidenct in these sort of examples.

As for the millstone claim, Jesus said that anyone who corrupts the mind of a child, it would be as if they had put a mill stone around their necks and cast themselves into the deepest ocean. (Or words to that effect). I suspect that this was another of Jesus metaphores, expressing that his attitude to child abuse was the same as almost every adult who ever lived.

I also believe, from when I looked at the culture of Jews of that period, they had an obscession with what happened to their bodies after death. It's been a long time so if I'm mistaken, I hope someone more knowlegable will correct me. But I think they believed that, at resurection, they would be raised up from the ground. Since the deepest ocean would have been thought of as the most remote place of all, they would, presumably be raised last.

Those deemed rightious would be burried on the Mount of Olives since this was believed to be the place where the final coming would take place, so anyone burried there would be raised first.

Criminals and some others, tended to have their bodies cast onto, what was at that time, the city dump of Jeursalem, called Gehenna. There were a number of references to Gehenna made in the Gospels, which, in most English translations of the Bible, were changed to Hell. Hence the myth of the destination of hell for sinners which was subsequently used by many since to scare people.

While I personally wouldn't support the idea of killing someone, I do know of quite a number of otherwise decent people who would say that being drowned is a bit too easy for anyone who corrupts a child in that way.

QuoteMcCormack and Horton told the Blade that a sermon delivered by Rev. A.W. Montgomery Sr., pastor of Agape Missionary Baptist Church in Suitland, Md., who presided over the funeral service, offended many of those in attendance, including many of Mclean's transgender friends.

At least his church is properly named.  He leaves everyone's mouth agape.

QuoteIn a telephone interview on Wednesday, Montgomery disputed claims that his remarks at the service were disrespectful or disparaging toward Lashai Mclean or the transgender community.

"My perception of some things is strictly from the perception of the Bible," he said. "Sin is sin is sin. I don't care who you are. There's no perfect person on this planet. Whether you're the pope or the poorest person, all of us sin. So my remarks would never be disparaging at all. I preached the Gospel. I don't think I was harsh."

We humans have a long history of forgiving people who use the Bible to justify their hatred and prejudice.  That's why we keep seeing stuff like this.

We humans have a long history of forgiving people who use the Bible to justify their hatred and prejudice.

As opposed to it's other great use, which is as a doorstop.  Look, I'm not the villian here, had they asked me I would have had the entire situation voided from the get go buy skipping the entire funeral scene altogether - but these here, these are your coreligionists, not mine.  But taking individual responsibility has never been the faiths strong point - why not just tell me that the devil made him do it?  Ain't that the great out for Christians' personal responsibility?

It's all so disheartening.

I got thrown out of a ministry many years ago and it taught me one major lesson.
TOO MANY HUMANS CLAIMING TO HAVE A DIRECT WIRE TO THE ALMIGHTY.

So all they say is now coming directly and wholly inspired by the Holy Spirit. My foot in a fish can!

Ouch,
Axelle

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 05, 2011, 05:36:31 PM
I'm in the UK and I have seen very little of that kind of bigotry. I've seen arguments within churches over their position but I have seen people on both sides of the fence willing to help people in need.

I think that's partly a result of historical timing. The conservative christian movement is much younger in the United States and hasn't died out yet like it has in Europe. Right now the center of christian bigotry is the U. S., but it's quickly moving to Africa, because Americans have been exporting it over their for the last 50 years.

Quote from: tekla on August 07, 2011, 01:47:03 PM
Even if it were, what he is claimed to have said amounted to, at the very least, mitigation.

When religions no longer dictate what is right and wrong, holy and sin - then pretty much you're left with coffee, doughnuts and building that's really expensive to heat.

I know that's one way to look at it, but there is another. Instead of dictating right and wrong, religions can properly work to help the poor, the hungry, and the oppressed. IF religious people would only stop and think... There are one or two verses in the Bible that touch on GLBT questions; there are hundreds that talk about taking care of the oppressed. Where does their effort lie?

Psalm 41:1-2
Blessed is he who has regard for the weak; the LORD delivers him in times of trouble.

Proverbs 22:9
A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor.

Proverbs 31:8-9
Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.

Isaiah 1:17
Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow.

Isaiah 58:6-7;10
If you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday.

Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Luke 14:13-14
But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.

James 1:27
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

It is now common knowledge among those who know what is real and what is not that the new mission field is not in a third world country-it is in the good old USA!
I wholeheartedly agree the Mainstream American Christians or should I say-Bigots-haven't got a clue about how to listen to the Holy Spirit. But they will tell you they can and some put on a good show for their audiences all the while raking in huge sums of money in the process. At times the thought makes me sick to my stomach but as there is plenty of work to do-I will go to work even if what I do might seem to some as very little. I am certain that the 'little' I can do will mean alot to someone who needs it! So that is all the justification I need to continue.

"Little is much if God is in it"
Randi

Deep Throat: Follow the money.
Bob Woodward: What do you mean? Where?
Deep Throat: Oh, I can't tell you that.
Bob Woodward: But you could tell me that.
Deep Throat: No, I have to do this my way. You tell me what you know, and I'll confirm. I'll keep you in the right direction if I can, but that's all. Just... follow the money.

It was true then.  It's true now.  Just follow the money. 

Of the 300 people who attended the funeral, only 1/3 walked out.  The preacher was speaking to the 200 who stayed and who will put money in the collection basket in the future.

Can I have an "AMEN" for Sister Julie!

tax free, tax free
You'll do well in this land of
Snakebite evangelists and racketeers
You could get to be
A big wig financier
Land of snap decisions
Land of short attention spans

          - Joni Mitchell

Quote from: Randi on August 08, 2011, 05:46:54 PM
the Mainstream American Christians or should I say-Bigots-

Let me correct the technical terminology. "Mainstream" churches are the large, liberal denominations. The ones you are thinking of are labeled "conservative" rather than "mainstream." "Conservatives" hate "mainstream" churches vocally.

I think I would have stood up and said VERY loudly "WTF are you doing insulting this dead woman? Did you believe Jesus would say something like that over a dead body?"

Quote from: tekla on August 07, 2011, 01:47:03 PM
Even if it were, what he is claimed to have said amounted to, at the very least, mitigation.

When religions no longer dictate what is right and wrong, holy and sin - then pretty much you're left with coffee, doughnuts and building that's really expensive to heat.

Well when certain people try to use religion for their OWN goals, then it's not about right and wrong. Unless of course you believe interracial marriage is a sacrilege? Not that long ago conservative religious people were fighting against that one. Note it would have lost the popular vote too but the Gov had the sense then to allow the supreme  court to rule. I see no difference in same sex marriage.

Quote from: Stephe on August 09, 2011, 02:06:32 PM
Well when certain people try to use religion for their OWN goals, then it's not about right and wrong.

Unless I completely misunderstand you, I don't see how it's possible to NOT use religion for one's own goals. That's why people invented religion (and other institutions) in the first place.

Quote from: Arch on August 09, 2011, 02:16:49 PM
Unless I completely misunderstand you, I don't see how it's possible to NOT use religion for one's own goals. That's why people invented religion (and other institutions) in the first place.

You're right, we are not supposed to "use religion" on other people at all. I use religion as a way to help myself without expecting others to believe what I do.

If people would only follow the VERY simple message "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and use that for a filter ...

Quote from: Stephe on August 09, 2011, 02:22:31 PM
If people would only follow the VERY simple message "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and use that for a filter ...

Never mind that such a mantra is arguably imposing one's belief upon others...while MOST religions have some variant of such a 'message,' not ALL of them do. 

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 09, 2011, 02:25:03 PM
Never mind that such a mantra is arguably imposing one's belief upon others...while MOST religions have some variant of such a 'message,' not ALL of them do.

So you think that "mantra" is bad and hurts other people? I'm not aware of any religion that would stand on -treating others the way you would like to be treated- is a bad idea. Do you have some reference to the religions that oppose this?

A Buddhist monk stated he felt a better Golden Rule is "Do not do unto others that which you do not want done to you."  I think the intent was to eliminate the masochist type of person.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 09, 2011, 10:55:52 PM
A Buddhist monk stated he felt a better Golden Rule is "Do not do unto others that which you do not want done to you."  I think the intent was to eliminate the masochist type of person.

I like it, thanks for posting that!

Funerals are NEVER for the benefit of the Deceased!!  This pastor was preaching to the people who paid him to come and do just that, preach for the benefit of the living!  He and the immediate family of Lashai had no idea of what she had done and become to others as shown by the fact that they moved the service to a much larger church in a different city.  This was a man and family from a marginalized neighborhood where "big city" was threatening on its own behalf.  He does not represent U.S. Christianity from even the city he was in for the funeral.  From the field of clergy education on any topic, he was pretty sparse in class credit.   Lashai will be another name on the list for the Transgender Day Of Remembrance this year where she will receive her dignity from her true brothers and sisters. 

Quote from: Vicky on August 16, 2011, 07:00:42 PM
Funerals are NEVER for the benefit of the Deceased!!

Wow, I never thought about it like that.   :-\  I find this to be true, in spite of how sad I feel about this being true.   :'(

Quote from: Vicky on August 16, 2011, 07:00:42 PM
Funerals are NEVER for the benefit of the Deceased!! 

A funeral -should- be a time to show your respect for the Deceased. Or else don't come.