Susan's Place Transgender Resources

OK, so I identify as a gay male, I feel disconnected to my female body, want a flat chest but to be honest I don't want to have a penis. If T could make me grow a proper one I'd be fine with it, but I don't really feel any dysphoria about not having a penis. Having a uterus, yes, It does bother me, but the fact of not having male reproductive organs does not.

I dunno, sometimes I feel very confused. People here go on about packing and using STP devices but this just seems wrong for me to do, it would make me feel even more fake-male than a male. At least with hormones it's my own body that's changing into a male body.
So can you be a transgender male if you don't feel any need of having a penis. ??? I know these are all just labels but I was wondering how people here feel about it.

Woopsy, Light

* so I identify as a gay male * and * to be honest I don't want to have a penis. *

That sounds problematic, not sure if I'd find it confused though, because it's what you say you feel.

I guess to be a trans-male is no issue without AMAB genitals, but as for gay-males... in my experience, that seems a big no-no.
That "missing" member is one of the most cherished parts in THAT community. Where, the "bigger the better" is the rule. YMMV

Axelle

You can totally be a transdude while experiencing all of those feelings.  I am much the same way.  Didn't want a penis if it wasn't real/aesthetically pleasing, never bothered with STP/packers, never had any major dysphoria about it, etc.  Being trans is all how you define it.  If you identify as a male, regardless of sexual orientation, and you are genetically female, then it sounds like you are trans!  A lot of times people's feelings change as they align their physical appearance with their gender identity as well.

Maybe down the road you'll find yourself wanting a penis, regardless of how it's obtained or how it looks.  If you don't, that's fine too!  I wouldn't stress about the penis issue.  Very few people find out what's going on down there anyway.  Focus on making yourself happy, and it sounds like hormones and other aspects of transition might be a part of it!

Edit: And as far as your love life, while there may be some penis-fixation in the gay community, if you put yourself out there you will certainly be able to find nice guys who are interested in you regardless of your genitalia!

Of course you are. There aren't any set rules for what makes someone more or less transgendered than someone else. Some people have terrible dysphoria about what they do or don't have, others are more okay with it. I'm a lot like you, I don't like having a uterus or female productive organs (will hopefully get them removed at some point), but nor am I gagging for a penis. I don't particularly want a packer or prosthetic, it's cool. We're all different.

As they say; if it walks like duck, and quacks like a duck, it's most likely a duck.

If you identify as male, and being considered as female causes you distress, then that's a fair enough description of GID.  The state of your genitalia is a different question, simply making you non-op, which given the state of the medical art for FtM, is a reasonable position.

If you were a cis-male and lost your penis in an accident you would still be considered male. 

Karen.

the standards of care state that a patient must have significant distress over the fact that their genitals are wrong and find their existing ones disgusting and so on and so forth. i don't think the penis makes the man, but i don't understand all of the "trans" people who have no desire for one. forget the fact that the surgeries are unrealistic. have you ever met a MAAB person (that is not MTF trans or androgyne) that said "yeah I don't really care if I have a dick or not. i don't really want one."?

RyanThomas, you don't have to understand it, you just have to accept the fact that other transmen feel differently than you do, period. There is a lot of variety in how each of us feel about our bodies. As for the "standards of care", I don't agree with them. I don't think my genitals are disgusting, and neither does my partner.

Also, we can't just "forget" the fact that the surgeries are unrealistic.  That's the main reason everyone who has posted  here stating they don't care about their genitalia has given for not wanting a penis.  If we could have a fully-functioning, natural male penis, I think most transmen would want one.  It's healthy and mature to come to terms with the fact that that is not possible, though, and instead just deal with having female genitalia rather than shelling out a ton of money for unrealistic surgery or dealing with the hassle of an STP packer.

Furthermore, the standards of care present four criteria that must be met for a GID diagnosis:

Long-standing and strong identification with another gender
Long-standing disquiet about the sex assigned or a sense of incongruity in the gender-assigned role of that sex
The diagnosis is not made if the individual also has physical intersex characteristics.
Significant clinical discomfort or impairment at work, social situations, or other important life areas.

It does not say you have to have significant distress over genitalia.

We all transition differently.  Some guys are fine with just having chest surgery.  Other guys, like myself, need the complete overhaul, the complete surgery.  For myself, until I can find a way to get the bottom surgery, I will always deal with this body dysphoria.  But, my experience is not your experience. 

We all have different things that bother us, and if you're okay with not having a penis more power to you.  It seems like a lot of guys on here feel similarly.

well sure..
its very diffrent how people having it.

Quote from: RyanThomas on August 13, 2011, 08:57:18 AM
the standards of care state that a patient must have significant distress over the fact that their genitals are wrong and find their existing ones disgusting and so on and so forth.

Source please?  You've mentioned this several times (in other posts).  I still cannot find any source to back up those statements.  I've checked the DSM-IV and the WPATH SOC.

To the OP:  Your experience is individual.  It isn't necessary to need/want a penis to be a man.  Plenty of trans men are non-op (top and/or bottom surgery). 

Quote from: Quicksand on August 13, 2011, 11:40:22 AM
If we could have a fully-functioning, natural male penis, I think most transmen would want one. 

Thanks Quicksand, that's exactly how I feel.

Maybe part of the reason I'm not really bothered about not having a penis is becuase I'm mostly anxious over thing's I've
already got, like those completelly useless chest appendages.

As far as I'm concered I'm already a guy and I will only change my body enough to feel comfortable with it.

well you are in luck because bottom surgery for FTM's isnt as advanced as it is for MTF's.  (I am not bashing on any guy who wants bottom surgery, just saying its not as advanced)

just because you don't desire a penis, doesn't make you less trans.  me, yeah I would love a real penis, that doesnt make me more trans then you.  I also have accepted the reality that i wont ever have a real penis.

testosterone has made me feel less dysphoric about not having a bio penis, because I have my own flesh, which acts a lot like a penis, just smaller

You are, I don't want a vagina also (ok i want but... you understand me...)

Quote from: RyanThomas on August 13, 2011, 08:57:18 AM
have you ever met a MAAB person (that is not MTF trans or androgyne) that said "yeah I don't really care if I have a dick or not. i don't really want one."?

Word. Exactly what I was thinking...

Not having a penis does not make you less of a man. I am trans man and having bottom surgery is not on my list, although I have thought about it in the past. A lot of things must be in reconsideration as anything could happen while in surgery. The doctor can mess with your sensation nerves that causes you to not have any feeling in that area at all, and that is what I fear the most. I would LOVE to have a penis thought. Sometimes when I look at myself I often say "What the hell happen in the womb that gave me this?!??!"

I don't mean to disrespect anyone here who had bottom surgery but after seeing some of the photos of bottom surgery It's safe to say that the penis does not look realistic at all, as what Quicksand said, and I honestly don't want to be saving up a lot of money just so I can have an unrealistic penis.

Just jumping on the bandwagon...I concur with everyone here about not wanting a penis not making you less of a man.  At this point it's not very practical (no disrespect) because of the iffi-ness of the procedure and its limitations in terms of functionality and sensation, but this aside, just not wanting a penis cause you don't want a penis is completely cool and dude-ly too.  I've actually known quite a number of bio-born and identified women who didn't want to have a vagina and they certainly didn't feel or identify as anything other than a woman or less like they were less of a woman.  You are what you are and identify as :)

I agree Windmill

Quote from: Adio on August 13, 2011, 12:49:52 PM
Source please?  You've mentioned this several times (in other posts).  I still cannot find any source to back up those statements.  I've checked the DSM-IV and the WPATH SOC.

To the OP:  Your experience is individual.  It isn't necessary to need/want a penis to be a man.  Plenty of trans men are non-op (top and/or bottom surgery).

http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/benjamin_gd.html (http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/benjamin_gd.html)

his terminology applies to transwomen, so replace estrogen with testosterone, etc. types five and six are what im referring to, as the harry benjamin school of thought says true transsexuals desire surgery.

for the record, I don't care what you do or don't do with your genitalia. I'm just providing you with some of the most common medical information there is on trans people. you may not agree with it, but many of your doctors were probably taught to.

Quote from: RyanThomas on August 13, 2011, 04:55:41 PM
http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/benjamin_gd.html (http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/benjamin_gd.html)

his terminology applies to transwomen, so replace estrogen with testosterone, etc. types five and six are what im referring to, as the harry benjamin school of thought says true transsexuals desire surgery.

Thanks for the link.  Perhaps you should check out the more (but not universally) accepted DSM-IV criteria from Gender Identity Disorder.

I must caution you though; be really careful about using the term "true transsexual" or using a scale for someone's gender identity.  I won't get into it here because it's a tender subject and not the purpose of this thread.  Use the search function here or google to see arguments against the usage of that term.

Quote from: Adio on August 13, 2011, 05:06:08 PM
Thanks for the link.  Perhaps you should check out the more (but not universally) accepted DSM-IV criteria from Gender Identity Disorder.

I must caution you though; be really careful about using the term "true transsexual" or using a scale for someone's gender identity.  I won't get into it here because it's a tender subject and not the purpose of this thread.  Use the search function here or google to see arguments against the usage of that term.

I am well aware of both the DSM-IV criteria (that label us as mentally ill) and the "tenderness of the subject". it's not my term and I am not implying that anyone is a fake transsexual. I don't care how trans you are, what's in your pants, or what you do with it, but be cautioned that doctors are sometimes uncomfortable treating those that fall outside the guidelines.

Quote from: justmeinoz on August 13, 2011, 06:41:06 AM
As they say; if it walks like duck, and quacks like a duck, it's most likely a duck.

If you identify as male, and being considered as female causes you distress, then that's a fair enough description of GID.  The state of your genitalia is a different question, simply making you non-op, which given the state of the medical art for FtM, is a reasonable position.

If you were a cis-male and lost your penis in an accident you would still be considered male. 

Karen.

^ This

That thing I have gives me sexual dysphoria, but otherwise I don't really care about it.

I don't think it makes you any less of a man. Many of the guys here have said this, but it's simply an issue of what your dysphoria is. For me, I have a pretty natural male appearance (pre-T), and my chest doesn't cause me particular distress because it's small enough that light binding or semi-loose (don't even have to be baggy) shirts get rid of them, and I give myself the positive, at least they're not going to be any hassle come top surgery. But for me, that whole lower area, just doesn't fit. I use a 3-in-1, I just feel more comfortable with it than without. For me, with my particular dysphoria, the "hassle" is worth it. As for surgery, I'd like it, if it improves. And in the end, if it's to gain the proper gender status on my ID, I'll go with the surgery that has the least involved, and leaves me most open to possible improved future surgery, in order to make a legal transition.

But that's me. Not you. Many women feel the need to have their breasts remodeled after losing one or both to breast cancer. But some are fine without. Some cis-guys have gynecomastia, many feel the need to have reparative surgery, but some don't. I think we should look at this in a similar way.

Theres nothing that says you have to want certain things to be deemed anything. Considering the lack of real progress in the art that is FtM bottom surgery its not all that surprising really. To each their own on what they do and don't want to do to make them most comfortable in their own skins.

As for the gay community being focused around the penis, not always so but yes quite often that is true. I've been with my partner since March '09. Hes gay and has no issues with my lack of certain parts. Its made him more open and comfortable with other experiences.

I agree with everyone here in that if you identify as male, and you were born with a female body, you're transgender. The specifics don't matter that much; a lot is personal preference.

I mean, when I first discovered I was trans, I didn't care that much about having penis. I didn't want any female parts, but I didn't have any major desire to have a penis. Nowadays I find myself wanting one, but being asexual, the only point in having one is for myself (meaning that no one else will see it).

It's all a matter of personal preference. You may find that you want a penis later, you may not. It's different for everyone. But don't be doubtful of yourself just because of that.

Quote from: dmx on August 14, 2011, 02:03:51 AM
A big factor is your reasons for not wanting one.

If a penis itself isn't something you want, I'd say it borders on making you 'less male' to be honest.
If you don't want the ->-bleeped-<-ty one produced by FTM bottom surgery because of it's (lack of) quality and the cost then that's a different story.

THIS! That's why I said earlier "ignore the fact that the surgery is unrealistic". To say that you don't want to "settle" for an FTM penis, for lack of a better term, is just being someone that's coping well with a bad situation. To say that you don't really want a penis period raises some serious questions on my part. Again, I'll say, have you ever met a non-transwoman male who "didn't really care" whether he had a penis or not?

I assume my view on this issue comes from the fact that I find society's fixation on the penis (and other sexualized body parts) to be stupid. I like to point out to people that if a cis man loses his penis, do we not still consider him a man? The best answer to that people have come up with is "it's different in that case", even though it really isn't. To me being trans is a physical birth defect; I was born with an incorrectly formed body :) surgery fixes this in some cases, but it's fairly limited with the genitals. If I could have a "normal" penis, I would definitely take it, but I believe that the other parts of my body that don't match are far more distressful. I am okay with my genitals because at least they work. It's a penis to me, and society's rigid ideas of what makes men and what makes women is stupid, since it prevents people from being who they are. Given the options I have, I would prefer to have an unaltered but functioning set of genitals than to surgically modify it and potentially lose use of those parts.

Well Elijah ,sounds like a lot of cis-men judging by the way they behave-    "I have my own flesh, which acts a lot like a penis, just smaller" :laugh:

It's a pity that transplantation technology hasn't progressed to the point where we could just do a swap,  V for P, and vice versa.    If it was possible I'd be at the head of the queue to give mine away.

Karen. 

  I don't want a vagina either at this time.  I still don't have any animosity with my jewels either!  Give me a few more months, I may go total female and really change my mind!  Light, You are still transgendered if your mind and heart says so!
  Joelene

OK I'm not sure if this has been touched upon, but I think its worth considering...

My understanding 'transgendered' persons live more in the grey area - some surgery, no surgery, T, no T, take T and stop after a while etc etc - a mixture if you will, choosing to live somewhere along the gender spectrum. "... many of those identifying themselves as transgendered or gender-bending or gender-blending persons are attracted to the concept of a constructed gender and see themselves and their lives as evidence of it... Eschewing any strict male-female dichotomy, transgendered persons instead reach for a wide range of mixtures of male and female restructured anatomies and manifest masculine and feminine lifestyles".  Prof Milton Diamond, 2000. Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity", self-identification as woman, man, neither or both, not matching one's "assigned sex", identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex.

In comparison to "transsexuals, who I believe are intersexed, have the body and genitals of one sex and the brain of the other making reconciliation of their sexual and gender identities problematic. They solve their problems of reconciling, their disparate sexual identity and gender identity, by saying, in essence, 'don't change my mind; change my body'" Prof Milton Diamond, 2000. These terms are NOT interchangeable.

If you were to say to me 'am I transsexual if I don't want a penis?' - I would say that is unlikely, nearly impossible. The better questions for you OP is were you accurate in labelling yourself 'transgendered' which my answer would be - absolutely you can still be transgendered and not want a dick. If you were meaning to refer to yourself as 'transsexual' - then no I really don't think you can. Or is it the case like others have said, were you referring to the current variations of penis modern medicine can create for us?? In which case again - I don't entirely blame you for not wanting one!

Remember absolutely no judgement here mate, I personally have always felt something missing for me and yep that's a dick (amongst other things!). I am a man, with a transsexual past and while I can appreciate not everyone is going to 'fit the definition' and I accept your right to feel the way you do - I think we, well at least I, am just trying to understand here brother!!

j.

Quote from: Aussie Jay on August 14, 2011, 06:22:59 AM
OK I'm not sure if this has been touched upon, but I think its worth considering...

My understanding 'transgendered' persons live more in the grey area - some surgery, no surgery, T, no T, take T and stop after a while etc etc - a mixture if you will, choosing to live somewhere along the gender spectrum. "... many of those identifying themselves as transgendered or gender-bending or gender-blending persons are attracted to the concept of a constructed gender and see themselves and their lives as evidence of it... Eschewing any strict male-female dichotomy, transgendered persons instead reach for a wide range of mixtures of male and female restructured anatomies and manifest masculine and feminine lifestyles".  Prof Milton Diamond, 2000. Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity", self-identification as woman, man, neither or both, not matching one's "assigned sex", identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex.

In comparison to "transsexuals, who I believe are intersexed, have the body and genitals of one sex and the brain of the other making reconciliation of their sexual and gender identities problematic. They solve their problems of reconciling, their disparate sexual identity and gender identity, by saying, in essence, 'don't change my mind; change my body'" Prof Milton Diamond, 2000. These terms are NOT interchangeable.

If you were to say to me 'am I transsexual if I don't want a penis?' - I would say that is unlikely, nearly impossible. The better questions for you OP is were you accurate in labelling yourself 'transgendered' which my answer would be - absolutely you can still be transgendered and not want a dick. If you were meaning to refer to yourself as 'transsexual' - then no I really don't think you can. Or is it the case like others have said, were you referring to the current variations of penis modern medicine can create for us?? In which case again - I don't entirely blame you for not wanting one!

Remember absolutely no judgement here mate, I personally have always felt something missing for me and yep that's a dick (amongst other things!). I am a man, with a transsexual past and while I can appreciate not everyone is going to 'fit the definition' and I accept your right to feel the way you do - I think we, well at least I, am just trying to understand here brother!!

j.

Mentally I don't feel female at all, I want a change my body, get rid of my breasts, uterus, female looking hips,
pass as male, grow facial hair and muscle on T, it's just that for some reason I don't
feel bothered by the fact of not having a penis. I don't feel like I'm living in a grey area either, I'm a GUY.

It's terribly confusing for me as well   :P but I've read a previous poster say they treat their enlarged clitoris as their penis, well ever since I learned that the clitoris and penis are homologous organs I've been treating my clit as a penis equivalent as well.
Maybe it's why I don't feel I'm missing anything ...

Anyway, when it comes to changing my body I don't feel that anything that isn't me would help me to get rid of my dysphoria. No kind of cosmetic surgery or prosthetics or fake facial hair etc... just changes from T. My own body changing into a male body (and me removing female bits I feel uncomfortable with)

The only reason I would suggest eventually removing your female bits, at least on the inside, is for medical reasons. Don't count me as an expert or anything, I'm not even on T yet. But I've done a lot of reading up on it and one of the concerns is if you intend to stay on T or just be on it for as long as it takes to get the permanent changes. If you intend to stay on T, I would highly recommend eventually removing your uterus and ovaries. I've read multiple sources stating that post-T, even after menses has ceased, the uterus will often continue to build up small amounts of tissue. While this is fine short term, in the long run in can cause a lot of health problems if not removed.
So that's one thing to consider. But removing those bits won't make your clit function any differently.

I think its is completely okay to not want a penis, I am transgendered and I do not want a penis either.  I think I will be happy with what T will give me down there once I get on it.  Plus I think the surgery right now still needs a lot of improvements.  I also kinda think penises are ugly :/

Quote from: hexr on August 14, 2011, 02:40:14 AM
I assume my view on this issue comes from the fact that I find society's fixation on the penis (and other sexualized body parts) to be stupid. I like to point out to people that if a cis man loses his penis, do we not still consider him a man?

Yes!  This is something I think about a lot...and yeah, ppl never have a real good explanation for that diff  :P

The debate going on is why I have a personal problem with labels. If someone wants to label themselves of their own free will, that's fine. If someone has to use a label in order to get the medical treatment they need I personally feel that's screwed up, but it's a means to an end. But when someone is trying to fit themselves into a label because they feel they have to, that can definitely cause confusion. Also, in my case,  psychologists slapping various labels on me in my teens did nothing but screw up my head.

So my own advice is don't feel you have to have a label all the time to "identify" yourself. Also, realize that if you do want to get medical treatment, you will need to jump through hoops and accept the psychologist's definition - and their definition IS that you have a "disorder". Whatever path you take, just strive to be yourself.

Aside from the convenience of being able to easily pee just about anywhere, a penis would serve no practical purpose for me, so I don't particularly 'want' one, either. I really have no use for male or female genitalia. That being said, I would still prefer male organs over female ones, but I'd be quite satisfied having none at all.

So, for me, basically:
vagina = undesirable
penis = indifferent
neutral = indifferent

I don't consider myself any less male because of it. It just means I don't require bottom surgery, nor do I feel the need to wear a packer.

Upon first read of your OP, clearly I got the wrong impression that you wouldn't want a penis at all! So I think I get it now - you DO want a penis, just one that is yours (and you have that and it will be more apparent on T lol!) and not the packer or man made ones that are available now and that's awesome! Just seems you're able to accept what you have a lot easier than some other guys.. I knew a couple of guyswho started transition packing, never missing a day, didn't feel whole etc and one day woke up and didn't need to anymore.. Just had an epiphany where they grew comfortable with what they had..

Which far as I can tell is the whole point of transitioning - to feel at home in your own skin :)

What AussieJay said  :) It's your body, and it's your choice , and at the end of the day, feeling comfortable in your own skin is the most important thing- it doesn't matter if you entirely fit the traditional transsexual definitions or not. To me, people labels are like food labels - you might have 2 jars that both say "peanut butter", but it's not exactly the same stuff in each jar!  :) (I hope that slightly weird metaphor makes sense!)

Quote from: Windmill on August 14, 2011, 10:32:25 PM
Yes!  This is something I think about a lot...and yeah, ppl never have a real good explanation for that diff  :P

he has xy chromosomes?? that's a pretty legit answer. though not all men technically do it's the defining characteristic...

Quote from: -Ryan- on August 15, 2011, 08:38:02 AM
he has xy chromosomes?? that's a pretty legit answer. though not all men technically do it's the defining characteristic...

Well if the chromosomes are it, then all transmen are SOL, surgery or not. There are also chromosomal abnormalities that can occur with the sex chromosomes. Klinefelter's (which is XXY), XYY syndrome, etc., so even chromosomes cannot be the defining criteria for "maleness". Not that it really matters anyway, since chromosomes are invisible unless karyotyping is done. My point is that sure there are some characteristics that most men have, but none of them can be used as black and white criteria, since not all men are going to have everything people use to define "maleness".

Not to throw a spanner into the works, but just can't help do share this.
And not to cause any offence I hope?

If a natal male looses his penis, at least in Germany, it be called: "Er ist entmannt"
(he's de-manned).
This incidentally is also used if a natal male loosed his testicles for some reason or other, but BOTH of them to be sure. 

I mention this adding some sort a realism. After all we do live in society that had these perceptions/rules? for thousands of years, and they not that easily overcome.

Axelle

I also consider myself a gay male, I will be going on T and having top surgery and getting all the inside bits taken out. But as for the actual vagina, it can stay. I'm not bothered about having a penis, I think at this point I would actually miss what I have now if I miraculously woke up with a penis one morning.

I'm not particularly interested in penetrating anyone, other than being curious about how it would feel. I'm very much a bottom in the bedroom.

My current partner has also shown me miraculous things can be done with my current plumbing :P so I'd miss that if it was gone

The one thing I would want a penis for is peeing standing up, I've never been able to get an STP to work all that great so I always just go ahead and use the stall when I go to the bathroom which isn't ideal, but meh, doesn't affect me all that much, I tend to avoid using public restrooms anyway, regardless of the trans issue.

Someone mentioned that not having a penis will cause you massive problems in the gay community, I'm certain that isn't true. It totally depends on the person. Sure if you are the type who goes to the seedy gay bars where the main objective is to hook up with someone in the bathroom then you're probably going to run in to problems. But the gay community as a whole isn't going to totally reject you for not having a penis.

I've dated a fair bit while presenting as male and when I've told them what I have in my pants it's generally been met with "oh....ok...fair enough!" - maybe a few curious questions but never disgust or rejection. Straight women I've hit on have not been bothered either (experimenting, decided I didn't like girls after I tried it :P)

Straight men I've had issues with - but that's from them hitting on me thinking I was a girl, they wouldn't have bothered in the first place if they knew I was a transguy. It's more a reaction of "oh, you're a dude? we can't get it on then? *huffhuffsulk* c'mon I can make you feel like a woman! got a vagina right? that'll do!"

Lesbians have also gotten a bit nasty with me after I've said I'm not a lesbian, I'm a transguy. Lesbians seem to hate us o_o like we're betraying the sisterhood

I'm aware this doesn't apply to everyone, but this is what I've experienced

Quote from: hexr on August 16, 2011, 01:46:09 AM
Well if the chromosomes are it, then all transmen are SOL, surgery or not. There are also chromosomal abnormalities that can occur with the sex chromosomes. Klinefelter's (which is XXY), XYY syndrome, etc., so even chromosomes cannot be the defining criteria for "maleness". Not that it really matters anyway, since chromosomes are invisible unless karyotyping is done. My point is that sure there are some characteristics that most men have, but none of them can be used as black and white criteria, since not all men are going to have everything people use to define "maleness".

^ Second this; sorry for piggy-backing hexr.

Quote from: hexr on August 16, 2011, 01:46:09 AM
Well if the chromosomes are it, then all transmen are SOL, surgery or not. There are also chromosomal abnormalities that can occur with the sex chromosomes. Klinefelter's (which is XXY), XYY syndrome, etc., so even chromosomes cannot be the defining criteria for "maleness". Not that it really matters anyway, since chromosomes are invisible unless karyotyping is done. My point is that sure there are some characteristics that most men have, but none of them can be used as black and white criteria, since not all men are going to have everything people use to define "maleness".

not all trans people are sol. i have xy chromosomes... i am a man. i don't know how i would have turned out with a different set of chromosomes. i know that there are people with different arrangements who are still men, and i said so in the post you quoted.

Quote from: -Ryan- on August 16, 2011, 09:33:50 AM
. i have xy chromosomes

So do you have an intersex condition then?

Quote from: Matthew J. F on August 13, 2011, 04:09:22 PM

I don't mean to disrespect anyone here who had bottom surgery but after seeing some of the photos of bottom surgery It's safe to say that the penis does not look realistic at all, as what Quicksand said, and I honestly don't want to be saving up a lot of money just so I can have an unrealistic penis.

No, that is not safe to say the results "don't look realistic.   And if you need to start something with "no disrespect" you really shouldn't say it.  Have you seen every photo of every phallo done? probably not because a lot of people don't put pictures up because of the negative most everyone who sees a phallo picture says. There are guys on here who have had bottom surgery, and I mean phallo, and they don't need to hear that.  If it's your view that bottom surgery looks "unrealistic" that is fine but please keep it to yourself instead of shaming others.

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 16, 2011, 01:28:11 PM
So do you have an intersex condition then?

yes i have a chromosomal abnormality and deformed gonads

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 16, 2011, 01:41:08 PM
No, that is not safe to say the results "don't look realistic.   And if you need to start something with "no disrespect" you really shouldn't say it.  Have you seen every photo of every phallo done? probably not because a lot of people don't put pictures up because of the negative most everyone who sees a phallo picture says. There are guys on here who have had bottom surgery, and I mean phallo, and they don't need to hear that.  If it's your view that bottom surgery looks "unrealistic" that is fine but please keep it to yourself instead of shaming others.

seconded. and for the record i have seen some AMAZING phallos. if you don't want it don't get it, but offending someone else's surgery is pretty rude.

Andy has a right to his opinion as do any of you. To him, the pictures did not look realistic. He has every right to say so and I would be rather disappointed if I only heard that the phallo's all looked real when they don't. Ease up guys.

Quote from: LordKAT on August 16, 2011, 03:41:42 PM
Andy has a right to his opinion as do any of you. To him, the pictures did not look realistic. He has every right to say so and I would be rather disappointed if I only heard that the phallo's all looked real when they don't. Ease up guys.

I think you meant Matthew.  I wasn't criticizing anyone's surgery results.