Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Kia Ora,

::) I had better explain what I mean by acceptance and blending in/passing :

By acceptance, I mean regardless of whether one actually "passes" or not, one's gender identity  is "accepted"  by family, friends and local community, that is one is treated as their newly acquired affirmed gender...

As for blending in/passing, one blends into society as their affirmed gender and for the most part strangers have no idea of their former gender identity/birth sex...

From what I gather [for obvious reasons] there's no statistics to show how many fully transitioned trans-people have actually blended into society...Most info floating around is based upon trans-identifiable people...If there is a guesstimate floating around and you happen to know please come forward with it... 

The reason why I'm starting this thread is to get some idea of what it will take for some trans-people to find contentment in their lives...

Remember...What one wants and what one actually gets might not be the same thing....

Metta Zenda :)

+1

Also I'm not quite sure about your wording in that poll.

In line of priority:
1. to pass for my self
2. to dress according to my current mood, never mind what passes.
3. to pass with others, that did not know me from before
4. to have folk that knew me from before transition use correct pronouns

:-)
Axelle

Kia Ora,

::) Thanks for reminding me...I had forgot the most important option "Self Acceptance"...Without this none of the other options would really matter...

However Self Acceptance is not the same as "passing for yourself" it's about accepting the condition you were born with and then finding the confidence to do something to fix it...

Sarah, I'm not sure where you voted, I hope this new addition to the options didn't mess up your voting option...

Metta Zenda :)

I said non of the above. I want the same as I always have, to have a body that doesn't drive me nuts, that matches the way my brain says it is. Packing helps and T helps but I still have panic attacks when i wake and reach for something that isn't there or put on a shirt I really like and the mirror says it hangs wrong and I realize that I have breasts in the way.

I sometimes feel I am alone in this feeling. I rarely see it expressed here unless someone is just agreeing with a post of mine.

BTW, the 'passing/acceptance' would be no issue if my body were as it should be.

it's a bit tricky but let me sort of parse it out a bit.

What I want for myself, ideally, is to blend right in to the point no one would ever suspect I had a trans history - I'm pretty confident that "passing to myself" will have been accomplished if that is (with the acknowledgment that no woman is ever completely satisfied with their looks)

to the extent that the above is not physically or practically possible, it's important to me to be accepted as a woman despite any shortcoming in my appearance. But that would only and always be a consolation prize for completely passing.


None of which is to suggest that I'd sacrifice general societal acceptance of all trans people for the sake of my own passing - i speak here only of the issue of acceptance as it applies specifically to me.

Perhaps I'm superficial but passing/blending in is my number one concern. To the point where my therapist has OKed me for HRT but I have yet to make an appointment with endocrinologist he's referred me to because I'm worried I won't pass.

I accept that the best I can hope for from those that know me now whilst I'm presenting as a man is acceptance, and I think I will get that from my close friends and family, but passing/blending in effects one's future social prospects and howmone is treated by others. I don't want to transition only to be treated as an other or as an outsider. I wouldn't hide my medical history from a potential partner nor would I abandon my close friends that know me now but it scares me that because I went through a testosterone fueled puberty I will be treated as an other on a daily basis.

I'm finding it difficult to articulate my thoughts on this but as I said, it's this fear that's preventing me from starting HRT.

Kia Ora,

     This is a multi-step process.  In my case, I delayed my transition for decades because I believed I'd only be an ugly man in a dress.  I'd never be accepted, I'd never fit in, I could never get a job and I'd die homeless under a bridge with no friends.

      The pain of the dysphoria had to finally reach the point where I said that I know I could lose everything I've ever worked for in my life, but I didn't care.  It hurt too much to live one more day as a lie.  That girl refused to stay locked up any more.  It was literally transition or die (lose the will to live).

      I found many sites where I could see others who'd gone before me and succeeded.  I realized it was possible, so I took the first steps several years ago.

      That was the first step--self acceptance.  Accepting in my heart that I was female.  That was the hardest step.  Next was gaining some acceptance from others, although it was difficult in the beginning.  I went full time within a few months of my first therapy session and long before there was any development from hormones. 

      The final step (for me) was learning how to present as my true self so I could blend in.  Learning mannerisms, speech, dress, hair and makeup.  As I caught on to each of these, I got more and more "blending in" time. 

      Probably my biggest turning point was my legal name change and getting my gender marker changed on my driver's license.  That was my ultimate moment.

      Now, years later, I'm a woman everywhere I go and am not questioned.   Blending and passing is a nebulous term.  Casual encounters are not the same as working with the same people every day, so please understand the terms.

      I am accepted as female by the other women who work with me, and the guys, too.  I can't talk to the guys when they're together doing "guy talk".  I am accepted by the women doing "girl talk".

      So, I should check "all of the above".  It's a process.

      Metta,

     Re:Joyce

Re: Joyce, your reply interested me.

So as you mention in your post, you're fully accepted amongst your colleagues but what about 'casual encounters'? For example people on the street or in shops or that you've just met.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is whether or not you find that you pass or, to be more specific, you are treated unequivocally as a woman by those that don't know you.

If you are, is it because people don't recognize that you were born male bodied or because they accept you in the gender you are presenting in?

Other - I'm assuming that by "psycho-sexual identity" here, something is meant that's not related to sexuality but to sex in it's medical sense of male/female? I'm a little confused by the choice of language in the poll, but my vote there is still clear.

Either way, my appearance does and will continue to reflect my identity to some extent, but that always has been and always will be open to individual interpretation by people from different backgrounds and in different subcultures. So I'm mainly interested in accepting my own identity (of which sexuality and gender, for example, are but two aspects), and ensuring that I associate at least some of the time with other people who accept it too. Some people have never "fully accepted me" anyway, because I've tended to be an alternative person living in largely mainstream society. I don't expect that to change. I just intend to keep up the inward and outward nourishing flow of acceptance with the people who can and do give it. If "blending in" entails not being your true self, it's a hefty price to pay, and it's worth considering what that really is costing you.

Quote from: caitlin_adams on August 15, 2011, 08:14:11 AM
Re: Joyce, your reply interested me.

So as you mention in your post, you're fully accepted amongst your colleagues but what about 'casual encounters'? For example people on the street or in shops or that you've just met.

For a long time, I studied other people's reactions to me.  I don't see "double takes", stares or even a casual glance more than normal.  In casual encounters, I pass (blend in) flawlessly.  I've been called a beautiful woman many times and I am pleased to be so.  I've worked hard at understanding fashion and coordinating clothes, jewelry, shoes, hat and purses.  When I started out, I never dreamed I would end up like this. 

I guess what I'm trying to get at is whether or not you find that you pass or, to be more specific, you are treated unequivocally as a woman by those that don't know you.

Beyond any question, I'm treated as a woman because I am.

If you are, is it because people don't recognize that you were born male bodied or because they accept you in the gender you are presenting in?

They don't have a clue that I'm not a born female.  I'm post-op, I have a nice figure, I can wear snug jeans and I've had many compliments from women on how nice my jeans look from behind (if you get my meaning).

     As I said, those are casual encounters.  Those who've been transitioned longer than I will tell you there's more to this than casual encounters.  I have no illusions that I'm stealth and not detectable.  However, I blend in well enough to suit me and that makes me happy.

      I'm still going through electrolysis treatments and I often stop at a neighborhood bar afterwards.  I've confided in the female bartender about myself and we've become friends.  One week, she leaned in close to me and asked me if I had any pictures of me "before".  She said, "You're a beautiful woman and I just can't comprehend how you might have looked before..."

     That told me what I needed to know.  I can blend in, integrate and be accepted as a good looking woman.  I feel great about it.

Quote from: caitlin_adams on August 15, 2011, 03:52:59 AM
Perhaps I'm superficial but passing/blending in is my number one concern. To the point where my therapist has OKed me for HRT but I have yet to make an appointment with endocrinologist he's referred me to because I'm worried I won't pass.

I'm finding it difficult to articulate my thoughts on this but as I said, it's this fear that's preventing me from starting HRT.

Believe it or not, I think your feelings are completely normal.  Passing, really, is a benefit of the HRT, but its not the only reason for it.  Someone else said it in a different thread, and it was referring to T not E, but the feelings are the same "it just agrees with my body (chemistry)".  Listen to what others have said about the calming effects of having the right hormones in your body, etc.  Reasons for HRT, that don't involve passing, abound.

Personally, I like having breasts, soft skin and a generally female body.  None of that has to do with passing, its solely how I feel about myself.

If nothing else, try a course of AAs and see how you feel.  It may not be E that you need to be happy, but a lack of T.  Though as my doc explained to me, he has yet to have a patient (in 20+ years of practice) start AAs and not want E within 2 months.

To back up what I think Joyce is saying, some reach a point where you just "are." Society takes you at face value.  You don't generally give things a second thought.  For those that are not a walking stereotype, the societal masses tend not to give people a second thought on appearance...their brains process one of two things: man or woman.  They then proceed accordingly...

And even where we know we have flaws that we are sure others are picking up on, such is not always the case.  Even with my tangential involvement in one particular case that resulted in far more media websites having images and film footage of me than I ever wanted and that was viewed in my office, my medical history remains unknown to the staff.  And these are people that work with me day in and day out...and still knew the nature of the case I had been on the fringes of. 

     

What I have: Blending in/passing/acceptance as a cis male.

What I have in my dreams: Acceptance as a male who just happens to have been assigned female at birth and still possesses a certain genital configuration.

Acceptance is more important to me but I don't believe it's attainable. I'm not overly pleased with the current stealth arrangement but it's better than the alternative - being seen as something less than a man or worse, as a woman wanting to be a man... I don't want to be treated any differently than any other guy and this is why I don't just do what I want and come out to everyone. I was never accepted as a woman, now that I'm finally accepted as a normal man, I don't want to lose that.

Quote from: Forum Admin on August 15, 2011, 01:50:42 PM
Acceptance is more important to me but I don't believe it's attainable. I'm not overly pleased with the current stealth arrangement but it's better than the alternative - being seen as something less than a man or worse, as a woman wanting to be a man... I don't want to be treated any differently than any other guy.

I feel very similiar! Passing is very important, but should someone find out that i'm trans I want to be accepted as a woman not as a man wanting to be a woman. Most people who say they "understand" or accept me for "who I am", don't truly accept as a woman. Only someone who really feels they should be one.

I feel it's something that will follow me always. If I could go stealth now I would!!!! I have too many friends that know I'm trans and they would just end up spreading it.

Passing/ It's more important for me , I don't care what they think

If I see a woman in the mirror, I will be happy

I selected other...because skating > everything.

I don't really care what people think as long as I can just live in peace. When they try to keep you poor and thus no food or anything else it is a big problem. This body will never have the appearance I would like to see, so fine, I can live with that, we can't all be models. I would like these anatomical problems to be fixed just because it is such a pain to live with. That is really more about alleviation of pain and suffering than wanting to "blend in".

So really just leave me the f alone and let me work and pay the bills in peace.

Quote from: LordKAT on August 15, 2011, 01:00:44 AM
I sometimes feel I am alone in this feeling. I rarely see it expressed here unless someone is just agreeing with a post of mine.

Definitely not alone. I think most people, including myself, just don't like to think about it, let alone talk about it. I hate getting dressed, hate taking showers, or anything else that requires giving attention to living in a body that is not my own. It's gross, disgusting, depressing, infuriating, and a bunch of other things. So I try to avoid considering it any more than I am forced to.

Quote from: Sarah7 on August 14, 2011, 11:50:17 PM
Other:

"Passing" to myself is the most important - being gendered female by strangers is a useful side-effect, but it won't cure my dysphoria. Acceptance is also important, but if I can't learn to live in my own body it's kinda irrelevant.

Sanity first. Everything else comes second.

+1

Quote from: Forum Admin on August 15, 2011, 01:50:42 PM
What I have: Blending in/passing/acceptance as a cis male.

What I have in my dreams: Acceptance as a male who just happens to have been assigned female at birth and still possesses a certain genital configuration.

Acceptance is more important to me but I don't believe it's attainable. I'm not overly pleased with the current stealth arrangement but it's better than the alternative - being seen as something less than a man or worse, as a woman wanting to be a man... I don't want to be treated any differently than any other guy and this is why I don't just do what I want and come out to everyone. I was never accepted as a woman, now that I'm finally accepted as a normal man, I don't want to lose that.

Early in transition while at my therapist's office two trans men decided to start "guy talk" while I was the only other person in the room, and during that conversation I realized that, even back when I was for all intents and purposes "male," I sucked at guy talk. When they picked up I was slightly intimidated, I was removed from the conversation, I FELT like the men didn't want this girl in their convo...  (I should tell you I was in full femme during this instance). Of course, I left.

It's odd how the gender divide opens so fast during active transition, and we don't even realize it happening until we're put in certain situations. These guys were, at that moment, GUYS; accepted amongst each other, medical history a non issue, free to be what they needed to be, and I was experiencing total exclusion from the men's club (which was new for me). I'm sure they didn't even realize it. It was both validating and infuriating.

Acceptance can be attained, just keep swimming :)

Acceptance from close friends. Passing/blending from acquaintances and strangers. And acceptance for myself. Acceptance and validation from others helps my confidence, but nothing beats just reminding myself that I'm proud of who I am.

I personally believe that every Trans, wether they want to admit it or not, has a certain level of characteristics from the desired sex that they want to obtain before they can walk out into public with sanity and confidence still attached - that is, unless they actually take pride in appearing strange or contradictory, something that some Trans do take pride in for sexual, personal, or religious reasons. In this day and age though, harassment, discrimination, and fear cause most Trans to still want to be passable at least to the "confusing" level, a point where strangers at least have to do a double-take, or at least where people do not point and laugh. I believe most of the Trans out there do want to eventually be confused for the sex they want to be, even eventually being always taken for the chosen gender. Many also want to be seen as handsome or pretty, two descriptions that make up some of the most important romantic emotions in sexual identities themselves.

Wether this level of characteristics is simply a wig, dress, and heels, or reaches farther into both facial and body surgery or hormonal changes, every Transperson obviously partakes in some sort of physical change, and every Trans obviously has a different level of innate passability concerning physical features. As in the psychiatry of 'normal people', the importance of appearance to a human being directly involves a person's history of trauma, current sociological age and society, and family-career surroundings, all of which are things that are no less important than the identity of being Transsexual. The simple facts are that most people want to wake up in the morning and see the person they are on the inside represented on the outside. Where as "normal people" live a constant merging of soul and appearance (and thus, with ease, feel that their body and face well-represents their soul), Trans-people live a lifestyle where, because of the way native hormones work, the soul divides with the body's growth and appearance every day the person is living; that is, until they get hormone therapy or various surgeries, many of which many Trans can't afford.

A Transperson usually wants to pass for many reasons; my personal reasons are that, in my age group, trans who do not pass are constantly bullied and threatened, that in my age group, trans who do not pass are not considered physically attractive even by Trans-friendly people and potential partners, and that I simply feel suicidal and depressed if I cannot start my day passing, or at least encompassing in a personal way, the gender I prefer. As my face and body continue to age (balding, hair grown, facial structure, ect ect), the strength to do this has all but vanished and I, for some time now, have been literally forced by my emotions and physical defects to live as the man my body wanted me to be. I still try to socialize with people my own age (early 20's) and simply no one my age, not even the most trans-friendly person, can "see" a balding, hairy male as female, no matter how hard they try.

I want to be the person in my head, not what others see and I am working towards that goal.  I accept myself as I am but I want to improve what I am.  Friends and Family accepting me for who I am is important and I couldn't think of being without them.  What I am really concerned about is that they will not accept the real me.  However, I an aware that sacrifices have to be made during transition and life will not be like it was before (thank god).  I just hope that one of the sacrifices I don't have to make is my family.

(Bigender unicorn here)
The sad reality is, although the people in our lives may accept our transgender nature, once we come out to them, we will never be treated as cisgender again. That is vital for keeping my dysphoria at bay, regardless of whether I am presenting as a guy or a girl and it is the reason the only people who know about my gender are my close family, therapist and the doctors who take care of my routine health care/prescribe my HRT. But the price of stealth is a big one; living a lie to everyone we know and never being accepted for who we truly are. Your choice; Scylla or Charybdis.

The only thing that matters is your happiness, for if you can't be happy what's the point.  Many people here where I live know about me and my past it couldn't be hidden, my friends know about me, my fellow workers and those I supervised know of/about me, I accepted.  However on the other hand (Four fingers and a thumb) the vast majority of folks in this city of 120,000 know nothing of me, I blend in.  I was married June 25th this year to a most wonderful man, at Pub we frequent with our family and friends and anyone else who happened to be at the pub during the ceremony consequently there were those who knew and the rest didn't have a clue.

Simply put, find a balance, live your life and most important of all be happy otherwise you'll drive yourself crazy.

Acceptance Is definitely something I want from the people I know, but blending in with unfamiliar people who would simply see me and id me as 'girl' is also something I long for. I really dont like conflict of any kind, and if they simply see me as a taller than average female, then it would make everything much more bearable.

Quote from: TheAwesomePrussia on August 19, 2011, 01:59:37 PM
Acceptance from close friends. Passing/blending from acquaintances and strangers. And acceptance for myself. Acceptance and validation from others helps my confidence, but nothing beats just reminding myself that I'm proud of who I am.

Pretty much same. And if acquaintances and strangers find out, I really dont care as long as they respect it. I dont care if people know Imma transguy, as long as they respect it.

I am proud of who I am. I identify as a straight male but I know that Im trans. The majority of people I know know me as full male and dont know Im trans anyway. :)

I voted for Blending in/passing It's more important for me to look the part without question
That's because I all ready have Self Acceptance - I fully accept myself.
But I do care what others think and want them to see me as a women.

try to do all because its hard enough to live in times like this

If i have to choose I would go for passing. why, i just think its more logical. if you can blend in, what really is the need for acceptance. first off, must you even tell them what you originally were? if they cant tell anyway. yeah maybe thats a fiendish way to look at things but tahts how i feel honestly about this.

without blending in theres just too much room for unwanted things. is that worth the trade for a little bit of acceptance? sure acceptance is good and needed but not from everybody. to our loved ones and people that we care about, yeah acceptance is important. but from these strangers who dont care whom we may never see again ever... i dont care what they think i just dont want their bull->-bleeped-<- being thrown at me thats all.

Quote from: Kal(eb) on August 23, 2011, 08:03:18 PM
Pretty much same. And if acquaintances and strangers find out, I really dont care as long as they respect it. I dont care if people know Imma transguy, as long as they respect it.

I am proud of who I am. I identify as a straight male but I know that Im trans. The majority of people I know know me as full male and dont know Im trans anyway. :)

Most of the people I've met after I came out and started living full-time just know me as male (I'm pretty glad for my dad's genes, even pre-t I pass most of the time). And most of my friends from before say that they really never actually saw me as female, just "me".
I've had a few acquaintances and strangers who found out, usually because family slipped up with pronouns or because I'm with a few of my other friends who are trans, some of whom don't really pass yet and sometimes need a little help explaining to someone who's unfamiliar with trans issues why they should be referred to as "he" when they read as the other gender.

But other than that, later down the road I'd like for close friends that I make, as in, real friends, to know and accept me. Like it or not, my past, my trauma, and my experiences are all part of what helped shape my personality today. And I feel when I have a friendship like that, the other person deserves to know that.

I put all of the above because I think those things are interrelated and all important to me.  Acceptance and self acceptance though has the most impact on my day to day happiness. 

Quote from: TheAwesomePrussia on August 19, 2011, 01:59:37 PM
Acceptance from close friends. Passing/blending from acquaintances and strangers. And acceptance for myself. Acceptance and validation from others helps my confidence, but nothing beats just reminding myself that I'm proud of who I am.

I couldn't have worded it any better myself.

Would be fantastic and greedy to have both though, although confidence is a huge part in passing, aswell as looks. If you don't let people get the vibe that your worried about how people think of you, i think thats half the battle to passing.