Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Sooo as many of you know a bit of my backstory. I've been out for years, still seen as female, on T for 9 months, no name or gender marker change, etc.

I've been unemployed for a little over a year and a half. Now I'm really pressing on the job search but I'm having difficulty negotiating finding a job that can satisfy what I need as a trans person. This for me means working as male, having the right name tag, and well...not having that be an issue.

Since I don't have my name changed and as far as I know I'm usually seen as female, I use my birth/legal name on documents like applications. When background checks are run I want that to go smoothly. Right now I have two job offers, but I never asked at the interview about transgender people. I wasn't sure if this was a good move or a bad move. But now I have two offers and I don't know how they will react, when to speak up, or even what to say!

So...has anybody else been in a similar position? What did you do and how did it go?

Well, I do know that without a legal name change all of your work documents must be in your real name. Because you need to show both your ID and SSN card and they MUST match to be hired. That's the biggest catch. Another thing is, at my work, schedules are posted with your name as it is listed in the computer. It has people's full names even if they don't actually use that name in the work setting. My work was okay with nicknames and such. (I however was not "out" at work, but stealth). I had this problem when I was first getting a job while waiting for my name change to go through. I got the job but during Orientation when they wanted me to give them my ID and SSN card I tried to explain why it was different than my application and they told me it was impossible to do my paperwork as the name change that was going through. It had to be what it was now, then changed later. After that decision, I left the Orientation, they said they'd call back with my schedule and let me know when I worked. But they never called. So... It didn't end so well.

I'm going thru the same situation right now. Unfortunately...I don't have a job yet either and I can't help but wonder if it's because I -am- out and tell them up front or they just don't want me for the job's I've applied for. One of the places I applied for, I knew a few people that worked there already and I was told later when I didn't get the job that they were worried about legal actions if anything ever happened to me while on the job. So..I dunno. I have actually been thinking of breaking down, buying some makeup and female clothing to see if I get a better reception while trying to get a job. It's frustrating as hell. But then..I also know it's hard getting a job right now. I walked up and down Boystown (A popular LGBT community here) just yesterday and walked into EVERY store to ask if they were hiring and all but one said they weren't...maybe it's just a bad time of the year or something..=/

My suggestion is to be open and honest .... my son got hired by the YMCA this summer ... he hasn't done the offical name change -- he told them in the job interview and they were fine with it.  It was in Iowa even.  Do you really want to work at a place that if they found out you were trans would give you a hard time? 

  I went to two places today I done business in the past and the owners are my friends.  One was assembling product in one room with his brother with the other rooms closed with the lights off.  The other business is up for sale.  This was my last place of employment.  I was the last hired and the first to let go just before 9-11.  He had to let go another person last week because his employees were only working 30 hours per week.  Nobody's buying products that's considered luxuries.   Both companies make high-end astronomical products for both amateurs and professionals. 
  Joelene

Employers are hesitant to hire people they feel may be a liability at some point in their employment with the company.  As it relates to what we're talking about, employers are resistant to hire people they may feel later will threaten legal action for percieved discrimination.  Further, as it relates to retail, while they may have no issues with you, they're hesitant to hire people they fear may make their customers feel uncomfortable.

I mean...I have a degree in photography and have been trying to get gigs doing editing or something. I've also been shooting lower for retail type stuff. One job that I applied for was a position at a clothing store stocking shelves and stuff. When I called asking if the position was still available I was told it was filled and that they never received my application. A friend of mine that's supportive of me works there and told me about the position and told the hiring manager about me. I can't tell if they really mean that or if it's something else (because I did come out to those people before the interview).

One place that wanted to hire me was a retail clothing store that wanted me to do all of the set up for the store's layout (mannequins, where the clothes go in the store, etc) and doing basic stuff like sales. I still haven't told them but I did accept their offer. Do I call their HR? Do I just tell the management?

The other position I said okay to is as a children's photographer where I go from school to school taking pictures for the schools. They're being somewhat annoying and not giving me info about when training will be, what I'll be making, etc.

What the heck do I do?!

Every employer has a probationary period of some sort where they're free to tell you "its just not working out" without any further explaination.

If there's any doubt, tough out the probationary period and then sort out what you need to do from there.

Quote from: regan on August 17, 2011, 07:34:15 PM
Every employer has a probationary period of some sort where they're free to tell you "its just not working out" without any further explaination.

If there's any doubt, tough out the probationary period and then sort out what you need to do from there.

But I've been myself for like...7 years. It's not that easy to go backwards with my transition, ya know?

Quote from: Nygeel on August 17, 2011, 07:40:59 PM
But I've been myself for like...7 years. It's not that easy to go backwards with my transition, ya know?

Fair enough...

It sounds like the problem is that your legal documents don't match who you are.  I'd do what I could to get that sorted out...

Regan, I can't get any of that sorted. In order to get a gender change on ID I think I need some sort of surgery and I don't want surgery. The name change...well...I'm in debt and sort of promised myself I would clear my debts before getting my name changed so creditors can't say my name change is a part of fraud.

Even if my legal documents did match there probably would be problems because as I had said before...I'm read as female the majority of the time.

Quote from: Nygeel on August 17, 2011, 07:55:44 PM
can't say my name change is a part of fraud.

It's not fraud if you have it printed in a newspaper (or other public print) as stipulated by law.  It's fraud if you get a name change, don't have it published or submit proof to the courts and then live under that name.

Quote from: Epi on August 17, 2011, 07:58:50 PM
It's not fraud if you have it printed in a newspaper (or other public print) as stipulated by law.  It's fraud if you get a name change, don't have it published or submit proof to the courts and then live under that name.

I thought that but it's still something I told myself I would do.

Quote from: Nygeel on August 17, 2011, 08:01:09 PM
I thought that but it's still something I told myself I would do.

Name changes are probably the EASIEST thing to do.

Fraud is basically intentional deception for personal gain.  If you followed the guidelines for name changes, you're not committing fraud.  However, if you were applying for a name change to cover up fraudulent behavior on your part or to commit fraudulent acts, then yes, that's illegal.

Also, if you're unemployed, you can apply for a waiver, which would cover the costs of all your court filings.  It's not difficult and you usually only have to file 1 waiver per case/docket number.

Quote from: Epi on August 17, 2011, 08:04:02 PM
Name changes are probably the EASIEST thing to do.

Fraud is basically intentional deception for personal gain.  If you followed the guidelines for name changes, you're not committing fraud.  However, if you were applying for a name change to cover up fraudulent behavior on your part or to commit fraudulent acts, then yes, that's illegal.

Also, if you're unemployed, you can apply for a waiver, which would cover the costs of all your court filings.  It's not difficult and you usually only have to file 1 waiver per case/docket number.

This doesn't solve my debt problem.

Quote from: Nygeel on August 17, 2011, 08:07:35 PM
This doesn't solve my debt problem.

Normally I recommend people don't go into debt....

Move your debt over to fixed low rate card to save money, and move it when the low rate period expires.  (Some credit card companies charge $10-$50 to transfer balances.)

Enroll full-time in a community college and apply for FASFA.

Collect aluminum cans, plastic and glass bottles for money.

Pawn/sell your unnecessary assets.

If you're concerned about your name preventing you from employment, get a name change while unemployed using a financial aide waiver.  When you become employed you will not longer qualify for that waiver and will have to pay the full amount for filing.  (You will have to pay for the paper to publish your name change though, shop around and find the cheapest one.)

Quote from: Epi on August 17, 2011, 08:15:31 PM
Normally I recommend people don't go into debt....

Move your debt over to fixed low rate card to save money, and move it when the low rate period expires.  (Some credit card companies charge $10-$50 to transfer balances.)

Enroll full-time in a community college and apply for FASFA.

Collect aluminum cans, plastic and glass bottles for money.

Pawn/sell your unnecessary assets.

If you're concerned about your name preventing you from employment, get a name change while unemployed using a financial aide waiver.  When you become employed you will not longer qualify for that waiver and will have to pay the full amount for filing.  (You will have to pay for the paper to publish your name change though, shop around and find the cheapest one.)

I'm out of college and don't qualify for FASFA. I don't have much that I own that's unnecessary (heck, I don't have a dresser or bedframe). I'm not sure what the low rate card is about. Are you saying I should get a credit card to pay off my debts then pay off that bill? Currently I can't get any more credit and have a card that's maxed out.

Quote from: Nygeel on August 17, 2011, 07:55:44 PM
The name change...well...I'm in debt and sort of promised myself I would clear my debts before getting my name changed so creditors can't say my name change is a part of fraud.

as long as you notify them of the change, they can't say it's fraud

Quote from: Nygeel on August 17, 2011, 07:55:44 PM
Even if my legal documents did match there probably would be problems because as I had said before...I'm read as female the majority of the time.

those who read you as female would probably just figure you have "hippy" parents

Quote from: Nygeel on August 17, 2011, 08:20:29 PM
I'm out of college and don't qualify for FASFA. I don't have much that I own that's unnecessary (heck, I don't have a dresser or bedframe). I'm not sure what the low rate card is about. Are you saying I should get a credit card to pay off my debts then pay off that bill? Currently I can't get any more credit and have a card that's maxed out.

No, you're not paying your debt off with more credit cards.  You're transferring your credit card balance to a lower interest rate credit card, that way you can pay down your debt easier.

While debt scares the crap out of me, it's rather necessary to maintain a good credit score ... so I maintain debt, sigh.

What I do is when a new credit card offer comes in the mail I read the small print.  Once in awhile they offer me 0.0% APR for the first 6 months, so I'll take the offer, transfer the balance from my previous card to that one and close my old card out.  That way I'm paying the principal and not the interest.  (You really should check your credit cards interest rate and see if you can at least get it lowered.)  When 6 months comes I've usually got another good offer in the mail or what the rate went to after 6 months is tolerable (something under 3.9% APR, otherwise you're not really taking a dent out of your principal debt.)

Epi, I don't get any offers for credit cards in the mail but awhile back I went to the bank and applied for a card which was denied because I don't have any income. I think my APR is 3.something%.

Then again all of this doesn't answer the original question posed by my situation of speaking up to an employer, and what to say. I'm considering telling the manager of the retail store where I would be dressing the mannequins before signing paperwork and maybe calling HR? I just don't know what a person would ordinarily do in a situation like this. Is speaking to HR more important than speaking to a manager? Can it stay between myself, HR, and the manager only?

Quote from: Nygeel on August 17, 2011, 08:50:40 PM
Epi, I don't get any offers for credit cards in the mail but awhile back I went to the bank and applied for a card which was denied because I don't have any income. I think my APR is 3.something%.

Then again all of this doesn't answer the original question posed by my situation of speaking up to an employer, and what to say. I'm considering telling the manager of the retail store where I would be dressing the mannequins before signing paperwork and maybe calling HR? I just don't know what a person would ordinarily do in a situation like this. Is speaking to HR more important than speaking to a manager? Can it stay between myself, HR, and the manager only?

Well, if the person hiring you doesn't think you're overqualified for the job and doesn't seem prejudice, go ahead and tell them.  If you really want the job and fear they might discriminate, don't say anything until after you're hired.  HR isn't suppose to go telling people what's in your file, but people gossip.  Unless these people are asses I don't think they're going to introduce you to the people you'll be working with as "everyone, this is Nygeel, he's trans, you'll be working with him."  If you're still really concerned, read the companies employment policies before applying.

When I transitioned HR changed my e-mail, contact info, etc and spoke with any individuals above me that I'd come into direct contact with.  They also offered to write out a generic letter to send to the rest of the staff but I declined and informed my department myself and only told specific individuals outside of my department whom I dealt with frequently. 

Hi Nygeel,

I think we could help more if we understood a little more what you're wanting from the employer.

QuoteThis for me means working as male, having the right name tag, and well...not having that be an issue.

I don't really know much about your situation other than what you said in the OP that you have female identification and that you're still seen as female but have been out for years, so I apologize if this is off.  If you're still taken for female, do you mean you want to be out as male to your coworkers? As trans? Are you just wanting the right name tag? If so, you could probably just tell them you want the name you go by on the tag and explain things to people on the job without outing yourself at the interview (and potentially scaring off certain types of employers).

Quote from: Forum Admin on August 18, 2011, 02:52:05 AM
Hi Nygeel,

I think we could help more if we understood a little more what you're wanting from the employer.


I don't really know much about your situation other than what you said in the OP that you have female identification and that you're still seen as female but have been out for years, so I apologize if this is off.  If you're still taken for female, do you mean you want to be out as male to your coworkers? As trans? Are you just wanting the right name tag? If so, you could probably just tell them you want the name you go by on the tag and explain things to people on the job without outing yourself at the interview (and potentially scaring off certain types of employers).

I want my employer's support.

Made long reply but it didn't post. Will respond later.

Alright sooo....those posts were made on my phone which was acting kinda buggy on various forums.

What I want from my employer is basic support and the basic stuff I feel that many if not all of us would want from our employers. I want to be respected and treated as if I were any other guy. I would like my management to know to call me he, and by doing so set an example for coworkers that calling me "he/him/his" is overall the right way to refer to me. I want a name tag with my preferred name, and if schedules are posted on a wall or something I want it to say my preferred name...or if that isn't possible just my last name.

The thing with "passing" is that I know I've changed a lot and feel I look male (even though others don't). I know that any day now, maybe in a few months (dunno?) I will be seen as male most of the time. I mean...I've been on T for 9 months so...should be happening soon.

I would call whomever offered you the job and just lay it out. It's obviously not something you can hide, it's not something you can or want to ignore. If they have any bias against transpeople, it's still going to be there 3, 6, 9 months from now. Call the person and just say something along the lines of, before i start and you process my paperwork I wanted to let you know that although my legal name is ____, I prefer to go by ____ and am hoping that my nametag and schedule can reflect this. Just ask them, "is this something we can work out?" If they say no, you have to use your legal name (as my work does because of the nature of my work), then you know this place may not be right for you. Just take it from there based on how that person reacts. Maybe they will inquire further. Maybe they have experience with trans employees. You really don't know until you bring it up. I really think you just need to wing it. You can't plan how to do something when you can't predict a person's reaction.

Why don't you "practice" your job interview and have one of your friends sit in as your potential future manager?  You could go through all the possible scenarios and find out what you would like to say and exactly how you'd like to say it.  I have to say though if I was your potential employer I'd be rather put off by you wanting to talk more about your trans identity instead of your skills as a worker and why you want the job.

Quote from: Epi on August 18, 2011, 06:16:54 PM
Why don't you "practice" your job interview and have one of your friends sit in as your potential future manager?  You could go through all the possible scenarios and find out what you would like to say and exactly how you'd like to say it.  I have to say though if I was your potential employer I'd be rather put off by you wanting to talk more about your trans identity instead of your skills as a worker and why you want the job.

I have two job offers currently. I don't know what to say or who to say it two with these two offers.

Wouldn't be okay to talk about job skills as a worker, why I want the job, etc then at the end if asked "do you have any other questions about the position?" ask about their policy on discrimination based on gender identity/expression then mention that I'm transgender...all that jazz?

Are you being offered 2 interviews or 2 jobs? A job offer is after an interview and background check and all you have to do is accept. The issue is moot at that point.

If you are talking interviews as you seem to be, then 2 isn't many. Keep your questions to the job itself, possibilities for promotion/growth, etc.

Quote from: Nygeel on August 18, 2011, 08:33:22 PM
I have two job offers currently. I don't know what to say or who to say it two with these two offers.

Wouldn't be okay to talk about job skills as a worker, why I want the job, etc then at the end if asked "do you have any other questions about the position?" ask about their policy on discrimination based on gender identity/expression then mention that I'm transgender...all that jazz?

If you're asked if you have any questions about the position and the only thing you ask is what their policy is on discrimination, they're not going to call you back, they're probably going to think you may sue them at a later point and see hiring you as a huge liability.

You should call corporate and ask them about their company policy if you're that concerned (assuming your state laws don't offer you any protections.)

Quote from: LordKAT on August 18, 2011, 08:45:28 PM
Are you being offered 2 interviews or 2 jobs? A job offer is after an interview and background check and all you have to do is accept. The issue is moot at that point.

If you are talking interviews as you seem to be, then 2 isn't many. Keep your questions to the job itself, possibilities for promotion/growth, etc.

Grrr modified this 4 times! It's 2 job offers.

Nygeel I wish I could just tell you that this is going to be easy and offer you support here but I think you're going to face a hard time. I don't think that you're asking too much (basic human decency) but let's look at it from the average company's perspective, especially for a lower-level or entry-level employee:

1. This person is making my job more difficult. Why can't they just use their real name? Now I have to go into all the systems and override things. Getting paperwork done is going to be an extra hassle. The law might actually prevent me from allowing this person what they're asking. Are they going to think I'm discriminating?
2. This person is going to be extra sensitive about things I don't have to worry about with other employees. What if I use the wrong name/pronoun? Will they sue me for discrimination? What bathroom will they use? What uniform will they wear?
3. What will the customers think? What will the other employees think? I don't want to lose good customers or employees because I'm hiring someone from such an "alternative lifestyle". I don't need this company associated with transsexuals.
4. This person is just trying to get hired so they can use up our health insurance. Are they going to want special treatment and time off for their surgeries?
5. Why should I hire this person when I could hire a NORMAL person and not have to worry about any of this crap?

Obviously I don't believe any of these things because I directly relate to your situation and the whole LGBT community but I think outing yourself right on the spot is grounds for them to not want to hire you. You look like a liability and a hassle, and honestly the "lower-level" companies like retail and food service are just trying to find someone to work their hourly shifts for minimum wage, get the job done, and not complain. I know this isn't what you wanted to hear but it's definitely true for at least some of the companies. You can't know who feels this way until you do ask, but if you really need a job I obviously recommend doing it very prudently and after you're at least a little "in the clear". It's not fair that you would have to pretend to be someone you're not to get a job and get by, but if you're in debt and can't meet your needs due to limited income, then I have to say keeping your mouth shut just this once might be worth it.

Quote from: -Ryan- on August 18, 2011, 11:10:48 PM
Nygeel I wish I could just tell you that this is going to be easy and offer you support here but I think you're going to face a hard time. I don't think that you're asking too much (basic human decency) but let's look at it from the average company's perspective, especially for a lower-level or entry-level employee:

1. This person is making my job more difficult. Why can't they just use their real name? Now I have to go into all the systems and override things. Getting paperwork done is going to be an extra hassle. The law might actually prevent me from allowing this person what they're asking. Are they going to think I'm discriminating?
2. This person is going to be extra sensitive about things I don't have to worry about with other employees. What if I use the wrong name/pronoun? Will they sue me for discrimination? What bathroom will they use? What uniform will they wear?
3. What will the customers think? What will the other employees think? I don't want to lose good customers or employees because I'm hiring someone from such an "alternative lifestyle". I don't need this company associated with transsexuals.
4. This person is just trying to get hired so they can use up our health insurance. Are they going to want special treatment and time off for their surgeries?
5. Why should I hire this person when I could hire a NORMAL person and not have to worry about any of this crap?

Obviously I don't believe any of these things because I directly relate to your situation and the whole LGBT community but I think outing yourself right on the spot is grounds for them to not want to hire you. You look like a liability and a hassle, and honestly the "lower-level" companies like retail and food service are just trying to find someone to work their hourly shifts for minimum wage, get the job done, and not complain. I know this isn't what you wanted to hear but it's definitely true for at least some of the companies. You can't know who feels this way until you do ask, but if you really need a job I obviously recommend doing it very prudently and after you're at least a little "in the clear". It's not fair that you would have to pretend to be someone you're not to get a job and get by, but if you're in debt and can't meet your needs due to limited income, then I have to say keeping your mouth shut just this once might be worth it.

Pretty much what Ryan said exactly.  Not pleasant advice and I'm sure you don't want to hear it, but it's realistic and honest.  It's really ->-bleeped-<-ty and unfair, but if you can't be stealth, you may have to just deal with the female pronouns until you're past a probationary period and/or you've proven you're a valuable worker worth keeping.   In this economy, lots of people are unemployed and competing for jobs that they're way over-qualified for, so unless you have connections and can have people higher up vouch for you or you're just really what they're looking for skills wise, it may be near impossible to be hired if they know that you're trans.  I hope I'm wrong, I really do. There are trans friendly companies and maybe you'll be dealing with someone in management who's known transgendered people, but we really aren't that common, and people are wary of the unknown and want to stick to the path of least resistance- equal opportunity be damned.

You've got the job offers, but they can retract those.  Even if yours is a state that protects from gender identity expression discrimination, it'd be tough to prove and you probably don't have the means to sue them.  It's more than a matter of pride, I understand, so I'd give talking to HR of the companies that offered you jobs and see what happens.  If both jobs fall through and they stop returning your calls and your finances get bad enough, you might just have to tough it out for a bit and accept a job as someone you're not.   

Best wishes Nygeel, I hope it works out.  I consider myself very lucky to have had stable employment during my transition, it's more than a lot of transgendered folks have and I try not to take it for granted.

casey the big difference here is you came out after a month of being on your job, and nygeel is talking about coming out before he has secured the job. but congratulations

I've outed myself at three job interviews and managed to get hired two out of three. My best suggestion is looking online for the highest rated glbt friendly companies and when you interview saying something along the lines of "I really would love the opportunity to work for an equal opportunity company like yours. I am transgender and would love for my nametag to say (male name) because that is what everyone calls me." The biggest thing I noticed was they did not want to make any bigger of a deal of it than I did and they took my lead with it.

When I got hired I had a manager who used female pronouns still so I took him aside and said I go by male pronouns sir. Afterwards he used them. Good luck Nygeel, I hope you can manage to land a good job.

Oh and like Caseyy said, if you can afford to take the chance I'd say go for it at the interview. My view on it is if they don't like you at the interview because you're trans, do you really want to work for them?

UPDATE!

I accepted one of the job offers and denied the one that didn't seem worth it. Unfortunately I was off to a bad start when I met with the manager. I got a call on Wednesday saying they wanted me to work there. I had forgotten the name of the woman who interviewed me and said that I wanted to think about it (because I still had that other offer). I forgot to call them back to say I will definitely accept and I came in 3 hours too early to fill out paperwork.

I filled out paperwork, went through a book about procedures n stuff. My manager was busy with conference calls and stuff but eventually went to make my name badge. She asked me what name I wanted and instead of going all in and giving my preferred name I gave an altered version of my last name that I use regularly (ex: if my last name were Sullivan and use the name Sully). I looked through the anti-discrimination section and saw that gender identity and expression are both protected so when I see the manager and she isn't busy I will tell her about my situation.

All in all I shouldn't have trouble with dressing as I want to and using the name I told them...plus the schedule has the name on my badge instead of my legal name. I should be alright.

So I have a question here in all this: what do you do on the actual application when applying for a job? I know legal name and sex you probably have to put female...but do you jus do it as "the female you" (even tho were not) and tell them in the interview more so?

I need a job. Lol.

Btw congrats

Quote from: Kal(eb) on August 22, 2011, 07:40:23 PM
So I have a question here in all this: what do you do on the actual application when applying for a job? I know legal name and sex you probably have to put female...but do you jus do it as "the female you" (even tho were not) and tell them in the interview more so?

I need a job. Lol.

Btw congrats

Some job applications have a place where you can list your preferred name.  I would just make sure the information you put on the job application is the same information you will put on your W-4.

One more update! :D

Today was my first day of doing actual work. One of the manager type people "slipped" and used the right pronoun only to "correct" herself. I'm thinking on Friday I will be telling the managers that it's "he."

All of it's moving pretty smoothly.

Congrats man hope your talk with the managers goes well Friday :)