Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello,
I would like to have your opinion on pregnant transmen.

I don't want to be rude, but I'm against it.
Why do you want to get pregnant when you want to be a man? It's the most feminine thing you can do, including breast growth, wider hips and a lot of female hormones.
I don't think any guy in the world (who isn't mtf) wants to get pregnant and give birth.
And if you really want a child, there's adoption, surrogate mothers etc...
I just don't understand that some ftms want to use their female reproductive organs.

This is my opinion, I don't want to offend anyone.
What do you think, are you for or against it?

Ok, first of all, most FTMs that get pregnant do it to keep the genetics in the family, you can't do that if you adopt.

Second of all, most doctors REFUSE to remove the uterus and/or eggs unless a woman has had at least two kids, as it's considered "unethical" to remove a "perfectly good reproductive system just because you want to be a man"

Third: Accidents happen

Fourth: I know TONS of cisgendered, straight men who would love to get pregnant just to know what it feels like first-hand. So your statement that no man except MTFs wants to get pregnant is bull->-bleeped-<-.

The only reason I don't want to get pregnant is because it wouldn't be fair to my children.

How one person defines themselves is up to them. FtM doesn't translate to every single one of us wanting to be completely biological, genetic male who can only reproduce a certain way. To some, yes, being FtM means that's what you want. But for others being a transman has a different meaning and they want something else for their life.

Personally, I would never want to go through with it. I would love to know I could get a woman pregnant and father a child, but I'm also perfectly happy knowing I won't ever biologically reproduce.

But I won't go and say that in order to be a "real" FtM you have to be exactly like me, or you have to be exactly like a biological male.

It's perfectly understandable not to understand, but it's wrong to look down on someone or question their identity based on what you can't understand.

Quote from: VakarianPride on August 24, 2011, 02:37:05 PM
Fourth: I know TONS of cisgendered, straight men who would love to get pregnant just to know what it feels like first-hand. So your statement that no man except MTFs wants to get pregnant is bull->-bleeped-<-.

Also, this ^.

Even if you a biological male, you don't know what every biological guy thinks and feels. You can't speak for half of the world's population.

Frankly, I don't understand why ANYONE would want to get pregnant. Obviously, I still have issues to work through. ::)

Having done a lot of thinking about this and having read quite a lot of science fiction that plays with gender, sexuality, and, yes, reproduction, I realize that other people's choices are not my choices. What's right for them is not right for me. So, while guys like Thomas Beatie who PLAN to get pregnant give me the heebie-jeebies, I try not to judge their authenticity by those choices. It's bloody hard, and I'm not quite successful.

But think of this: A lot of folks tell us that because trans men don't have regular-size natural-born penises, we aren't real men. A lot of folks say that trans women aren't real women because they were born with a penis--or because they still have one. Is that different from deciding that a trans man who has a baby isn't a real man? If so, how? If not, why not?

Quote from: comatose on August 24, 2011, 02:25:39 PM
Hello,
I would like to have your opinion on pregnant transmen.

I don't want to be rude, but I'm against it.
Why do you want to get pregnant when you want to be a man? It's the most feminine thing you can do, including breast growth, wider hips and a lot of female hormones.
I don't think any guy in the world (who isn't mtf) wants to get pregnant and give birth.
And if you really want a child, there's adoption, surrogate mothers etc...
I just don't understand that some ftms want to use their female reproductive organs.

This is my opinion, I don't want to offend anyone.
What do you think, are you for or against it?

You are saying a lot of f'd up stuff here.

1.  wanting to reproduce is a natural thing and some of us want to have kids that are genetically ours.
2.  there are a lot of cismen out there that would love to be able to have a pregnancy.
3.  MTFs aren't men they are women
4.  everyone's experience is different.  there is no one way to be a man who also happens to be trans. 

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 24, 2011, 02:44:22 PM
You are saying a lot of f'd up stuff here.

1.  wanting to reproduce is a natural thing and some of us want to have kids that are genetically ours.
2.  there are a lot of cismen out there that would love to be able to have a pregnancy.
3.  MTFs aren't men they are women
4.  everyone's experience is different.  there is no one way to be a man who also happens to be trans. 

you are entitled to your own opinion but please don't go around spewing hate on people who do or want to do things you can't understand.

Dude, he's not spewing hate. Spewing hate would be him coming on here saying we're ->-bleeped-<-ed up. He's asking a legitimate question because he wants to understand.

He could have phrased it far better than he did. There's a difference between being curious and being cruel.

Quote from: Synkronic on August 24, 2011, 02:57:25 PM
Dude, he's not spewing hate. Spewing hate would be him coming on here saying we're ->-bleeped-<-ed up. He's asking a legitimate question because he wants to understand.

I'm so glad someone pointed this out. I don't think he was being cruel, I'm fairly certain he was just expressing an opinion. Can we not attack people for what may or may not be considered poor phrasing, please? =/

Personally, I wouldn't want to get pregnant even though I really want to be a dad. I may donate my eggs and have a surrogate, but I personally wouldn't want to be pregnant because I think it would increase my dysphoria because it shouldn't biologically be possible (in my mind, obviously the physicality is still there). However, I do want to be a dad and I'm a little disappointed that my child will, in all likelihood, not biologically be my child. I can totally see other guys wanting to do this, and whether they do or not isn't much of my business, but I personally don't understand why a guy (cis OR trans) would want to be pregnant when surrogacy and adoption (or, if they're with a female, they could be pregnant) are also options.

Quote from: Synkronic on August 24, 2011, 02:57:25 PM
Dude, he's not spewing hate. Spewing hate would be him coming on here saying we're ->-bleeped-<-ed up. He's asking a legitimate question because he wants to understand.

You're right.  I changed my post.  This is just a sensitive issue for me.

My opinion is that people can do whatever they want with their bodies.

Is it really your place to be "against" it? If it's not for you, it's not for you. But, why should you really give a crap if another FTM wants to do it? How's it hurting you in anyway?

I don't think anyone, including women, really want all the things that go with pregnancy, they just want a child that shares their DNA. I bet most FTMs that decide to get pregnant would rather be able to father a child the way any cis guy could, but they have to work with what they got. Wanting a child isn't intrinsically a feminine thing to do. Most FTMs have already struggle with breasts, hips, and female hormones, they may not want these things increasing, but their want for a child outweighs that.

MTFs aren't guys. I bet a lot of guys would like to have the special connection that mothers and their babies have. Some guys really want a child, even if it means they would have to go through the pregnancy like a woman.

Adoption isn't an easy process and some people want to have their own biological children. Going the surrogate route opens a whole other can of worms. Even if you found a willing surrogate, who says she wont decided to get an abortion, or decided she wants the child.

It's pretty simple why they use their female reproductive organs. They really want a child that is biologically theirs, and they have to work with they got.

For myself, I am highly against it. That is all I'm saying on the matter.

Just my input, but I would rather give birth than father my children, but it's not because it's "the womanly thing to do" or whatever.

I agree that people can do whatever they want, but I don't want children. Period. People have a right to do whatever they want with their bodies. This goes for women AND men. If someone wants to carry a child, so be it. I'm personally choosing not to.

Sorry, I didn't want to be rude and I may have expressed some things wrong. But English is not my mother language so sorry for my grammar mistakes.

Quote from: VakarianPride on August 24, 2011, 02:37:05 PM
Third: Accidents happen

Fourth: I know TONS of cisgendered, straight men who would love to get pregnant just to know what it feels like first-hand. So your statement that no man except MTFs wants to get pregnant is bull->-bleeped-<-.

I wasn't talking about accidents - I was talking about ftms who WANT to get pregnant.

And okay, there may be some cisgendered men who would love to get pregnant. But, I don't think there are many of them.

Quote from: Arch on August 24, 2011, 02:42:51 PM
But think of this: A lot of folks tell us that because trans men don't have regular-size natural-born penises, we aren't real men. A lot of folks say that trans women aren't real women because they were born with a penis--or because they still have one. Is that different from deciding that a trans man who has a baby isn't a real man? If so, how? If not, why not?

I didn't say ftms and mtfs aren't real men or women, I just wonder why anyone would use something he/she hates?

Quote from: Synkronic on August 24, 2011, 02:57:25 PM
Dude, he's not spewing hate. Spewing hate would be him coming on here saying we're ->-bleeped-<-ed up. He's asking a legitimate question because he wants to understand.

Quote from: TroyTransistor on August 24, 2011, 03:05:40 PM
I'm so glad someone pointed this out. I don't think he was being cruel, I'm fairly certain he was just expressing an opinion. Can we not attack people for what may or may not be considered poor phrasing, please? =/

Thank you, it was indeed not my intention to spew hate.

I'm tired now and I'm going to bed, tomorrow I will respond more.

Firstly, ->-bleeped-<- is a spectrum.
Secondly, no one, including trans people fit into specific categories, we have enough of the whole fitting into a 'male' or 'female' category shoved in our faces throughout our lives.
Thirdly, even if you are against transmen getting pregnant, at the end of the day, who really cares? Another trans person getting pregnant isn't going to have an impact on you. Well, unless it is you who's getting pregnant.

Our bodies are ours and not anyone elses...why can't people just...accept?

Also, I doubt that ALL transmen hate their ovaries, etc. Like I said, ->-bleeped-<- is a spectrum. Not a list of certain criteria.

I don't think it's womanly or feminine to carry a baby. I see it more as maybe something people need to do, or really want to do. Some people can't adopt because adoption agencies might not be okay with a couple where one of them is trans.

There have been many biological parents where one or both are trans. There's also a documentary called trans parent. It's about several trans men who have birth. I don't think it's available anywhere but it's something to watch.

Some of us had children before we realized that our feeling male meant we were transsexuals.  I had no idea.  I wanted kids, I had the parts, I had a male partner.  It was a foreign experience, I never ID'd as a mom, though I'm a darn good parent.

I personally could not have gone back and had children after transition; some decide to do it early in transition, some later, understanding the risks involved.

Jay

I am not a seahorse.

But if you wanna have a child more power to ya.

Quote from: comatose on August 24, 2011, 04:18:39 PM
I just wonder why anyone would use something he/she hates?

because you know every single trans or gender variant person's relationship with/feelings toward their reproductive parts? 

Quote from: Mr.Rainey on August 24, 2011, 05:09:52 PM
I am not a seahorse.

:icon_lol:

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 24, 2011, 05:17:06 PM
because you know every single trans or gender variant person's relationship with/feelings toward their reproductive parts?

This.

I actually don't hate my bottom half. I just wish I had different equipment.

I banked sperm. Technically speaking I used the parts I had despite my feelings toward them. I don't have the option of having genetic children any other way, since human cloning is kinda taboo.

I know the situation is a little different there for FTMs, since the technology exists to transplant fertilized eggs to a surrogate. But so what? It's expensive, time consuming, risky, and can fail. The consequences of failed implantation in a typical pregnancy are what? The need to try again next month? Minimal cost, minimal fuss.

For those who are actually willing to do it, more power to them, I say. Saves time and money, and keeps the effort of bearing the child in the family. If self sacrifice for your family's wellbeing isn't a manly thing to you, I don't know what is.

I've always had a serious phobia of pregnancy in general - like I can't even really be around pregnant women without having an anxiety attack. You know that scene in the Alien movie?? LOL yeah ... just can't even wrap my head around something growing inside of you and dealing with it moving around and effecting your health and then having to go through getting it out of you and the aftermath of that *shivers*

Glad there's people out there that don't think like me though, huh!

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 24, 2011, 02:44:22 PM
You are saying a lot of f'd up stuff here.

1.  wanting to reproduce is a natural thing and some of us want to have kids that are genetically ours.
2.  there are a lot of cismen out there that would love to be able to have a pregnancy.
3.  MTFs aren't men they are women
4.  everyone's experience is different.  there is no one way to be a man who also happens to be trans.

this

also...
i would give anything, even being pregnant, to have kids that are actually part of me AND my wife. it kills me that some foreign random sperm is going to knock her up, and i cant. :/ everyone's situation is different. and unfortunately there's no amount of surgery that will fix my problem of not being able to physically impregnate my wife.

It seems a bit irresponsible for someone who's been on T for a long time to then intentionally try to get pregnant.  There's probably a lot we still don't know about the risks this could pose to both the pregnant person and the developing fetus.

As for the social, non-medical side of the issue, to each their own; it's not my place to judge.

Thomas Beatie actually went off T for two years prior to trying to get pregnant.  at least that is what I heard.  I think you should be off of it for a while till your T level lowers and then you are good to go. 

Quote from: insideontheoutside on August 24, 2011, 07:43:54 PM
You know that scene in the Alien movie?? LOL yeah ... just can't even wrap my head around something growing inside of you and dealing with it moving around and effecting your health and then having to go through getting it out of you and the aftermath of that *shivers*

I'm glad I'm not the only one to think of Aliens and get creeped out when discussing this topic

Quote from: Mr.Rainey on August 24, 2011, 05:09:52 PM
I am not a seahorse.

You just summed up my entire thoughts on the topic in five words.  Congratulations.

Rainey is right.  We live in a real world, not a fantasy.  Since we live in a real world, it means that it is only human beings with a womb and uterus who can give birth.  Since people with a womb and uterus rarely have the ability to produce sperm, it means that if they want children who carry their genetic traits then the most realistic option is to become pregnant themselves.

I suspect that being a "man" or a "woman" has almost nothing to do with why people want children who share their genetic structure.  The argument that a man should not become pregnant is specious at best, and completely ignorant at worst.  People have various interests in life.  Sometimes, these interests conflict.  In the case of transsexuals, bearing genetic children and transition are almost always conflicting desires since the fulfillment of the latter frequently makes the former impossible.

First of all, I want to make clear that I don't hate pregnant transmen. Everyone should do what they want to do. This is a discussion and I want to know the opinion of others and I want to share my opinion with others.

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 24, 2011, 05:17:06 PM
because you know every single trans or gender variant person's relationship with/feelings toward their reproductive parts?

I thought that the definition of transsexualism was having an aversion of the sex parts you're born with (ftms: breasts, hips, vagina, female reproduce organs. mtfs: penis, testicles, broad shoulders etc...), wanting to remove them and wanting to have the parts of the person you really are. I don't think that "ftms" who LIKE their vagina and female reproduce system are men. The same as I don't think "mtfs" who LIKE their penis are women. They can be transgender, but definitely not transsexual.

Quote from: sneakersjay on August 24, 2011, 04:47:30 PM
Some of us had children before we realized that our feeling male meant we were transsexuals.  I had no idea.  I wanted kids, I had the parts, I had a male partner.  It was a foreign experience, I never ID'd as a mom, though I'm a darn good parent.

I understand this. I know a lot of mtfs who married with a woman, did a masculine job and had kids before they became a woman. I think that is a part of trying to be the sex in which you are born and to fit in the society.

I think Thomas Beatie makes other transsexuals look crazy and weird while they aren't. When you say the word transsexual, most people will think of Thomas Beatie (aka that crazy pregnant woman who thinks she's a man - not my words but that of a friend). I'm stealth so I don't care, but this bugs some people who present as transsexual.

By the way, I don't like children and I don't understand why anyone would want something like that, but that's my personal opinion and very offtopic.

I tried my best to be polite. This post will probably make me very hated here, but I'm fine with it. :-*

Quote from: comatose on August 25, 2011, 06:47:50 AM


By the way, I don't like children and I don't understand why anyone would want something like that, but that's my personal opinion and very offtopic.

i think this is the problem with the discussion you're having here. If you don't like and don't want kids of your own, how could you understand that someone else would go through an unpleasant, complicated time to have them. For your information, pregnancy is equally annoying for many, many women going through it - it's not like if you're a woman you like being pregnant, it's not like that at all. It's about wanting to have kids - it's about the "result".

Someone who doesn't understand the wish to become a parent judging others who do have that wish is like my mom who always wanted to be a woman judging my wish to be a man. It is very natural for her not to understand why anyone would want to go through all the ftm-related troubles when "living life as a woman" is the preferable option in her mind. It is very natural for you not to understand why anyone wold want to go through all the ftm-pregnancy-related troubles when "living life without biological children" is the preferable option in your mind.
We ask others to respect us, pretty much asking "I know my problem isn't yours, and I know you can't relate to this in any ways. But please don't judge what I'm doing with my life, because I need to do this to be happy, or make peace with myself." I think we should grant this same "don't judge" to those whose motifs we may not understand. And this goes beyond trying to understand the motifs of an ftm if your mtf and vice versa.

Thomas Beatie's wife, by the way, could not get pregnant, that was the first thing they tried ;) While I'm not a big fan of people going public with their lives, in general, I am inclined to believe he may have had the same desire to show that there are alternative ways to lead your life out there and that these are just as "right" (or wrong, at times) as the "common way" to live. So he's not so far from Balian Buschbaum (the dude that keeps talking about his phalloplasty on TV) or Erik Schinegger (the intersex guy who once was a women's world champion skiier).

As for your comment on transsexuals who "like" their female parts being transgender, but not transsexual - there are so many therapists out there who tell their ftm patients to try and "redefine" their parts as "male" (since it is a part of a male body, because an ftm is male, and thus it's a MALE body part), in order to enable them to have a sex life.
Also, I am guessing you're European, and that phalloplasty is covered by insurance where you live, but that's just a guess, correct me if I'm wrong. Because e.g. in the U.S., unless you are very lucky, you may never (or not for many years) be able to afford bottom surgery, so the "trick" to define your parts as male, whatever their outer appearance may be, is actually a vital step for many people.

As an ftm, I think it is a very bad idea to say "you are not truly this and that because you don't have this and that feature" - "you are not an ftm because you don't hate your womb" (wtf, i don't even see my womb, why would i hate it?), is not very different, in its reasoning, from "you are not a man because you can't ejaculate/don't naturally have male testosterone levels/because your penis and chest are the work of a surgeon/etc.)".

Ftms are men by their own definition. We are men because we define ourselves as men, whether we still have or always will have or no longer have a vagina and whether we have made peace with out body parts or loathe them does not matter. If it were not for our own definition, there wouldn't be any ftms. We do not "become" male because others judge our decisions or our looks to be male. We are male because we feel so and say so.


unrelated side note: while i am not and probably never will be a seahorse, i am sympathetic to seahorses, because they don't adhere to the most fundamental biologistic principal, and they don't even care.

Quote from: comatose on August 25, 2011, 06:47:50 AM
I thought that the definition of transsexualism was having an aversion of the sex parts you're born with (ftms: breasts, hips, vagina, female reproduce organs. mtfs: penis, testicles, broad shoulders etc...), wanting to remove them and wanting to have the parts of the person you really are. I don't think that "ftms" who LIKE their vagina and female reproduce system are men. The same as I don't think "mtfs" who LIKE their penis are women. They can be transgender, but definitely not transsexual.

I just can't even...

Transgender is transexual without going through a medical process! Not every guy has the option of bottom surgery, and not every guy is satisfied with the results of previous surgeries. Not every guy is willing to spend so much cash on something they don't necessarily need when it won't perform as well as desired. Not every guy gets intense bottoms dysphoria. Some guys are okay with using a packer. Some guys are okay with their "female" reproductive system after T because their menstrual cycle's stopped. Some guys learn to think of their reproductive system as "male" because they identify as male, and therefore they don't need to change it. Some guys are non-op/non-T, that doesn't make them any less of men.

My mind is just thoroughly blown that you have that mindset.

Quote from: emil on August 25, 2011, 07:13:22 AM
unrelated side note: while i am not and probably never will be a seahorse, i am sympathetic to seahorses, because they don't adhere to the most fundamental biologistic principal, and they don't even care.

That very well may be the single best thing I have ever read.

Seriously.

I dont want to be pregnant and I dont understand people who do want to, neither male or female..
but I have noting agenst people who want it and who do so.
only thing I think about is as being trans I think you must be abit more carefull, in some ways.

I don't understand it.

But am neither for nor against, because it's none of my business.

QuoteI am not a seahorse.

But if you wanna have a child more power to ya.

LOL...good one.

My mind is just thoroughly blown that you have that mindset.

Actually, I bet a solid 90%+ of the MtF TS people on here think exactly that way.

Transgender is somebody whose gender does not match what they were assigned at birth. Transsexual is a person who identifies their bodies differently from what they were assigned at birth and want to transition. Many are unable to do so physically.

QuoteI thought that the definition of transsexualism was having an aversion of the sex parts you're born with (ftms: breasts, hips, vagina, female reproduce organs. mtfs: penis, testicles, broad shoulders etc...), wanting to remove them and wanting to have the parts of the person you really are.

That's what I thought, too.
It was what helped me understand what/who I am.
But, that's just me.

I like kids. Would love to be a father if I ever grow up.
Having children pre transition seems like a whole different (understandable) topic.
Choosing to produce them with original equipment after transition is what I cannot wrap my mind around.
Not about it being right or wrong...just hard to comprehend.

Quote from: comatose on August 25, 2011, 06:47:50 AM
I don't think that "ftms" who LIKE their vagina and female reproduce system are men. The same as I don't think "mtfs" who LIKE their penis are women. They can be transgender, but definitely not transsexual.
I understand this. I know a lot of mtfs who married with a woman, did a masculine job and had kids before they became a woman. I think that is a part of trying to be the sex in which you are born and to fit in the society.

I was going to leave this alone but I just can't. While I am not happy with the parts I was born with I accept and use them because they are what I have. I don't feel like I am any less of a man because of this. You saying that I (and many others) are not men is offensive and closed minded. I am sure the ladies here that use their original equipment would disagree with you saying that they are not women as well. I understand your intent was not to offend but, I would tread carefully with your word choice. Some opinions are better left unsaid... remember everyone experiences their body and their identity differently.
As far as having children I know I would not be able to emotionally/physically handle it. I would love to bank fertilized eggs and use my partner as a surrogate but that is expensive and you have to take female hormones and go off of T to do it so I don't see that happening.

Any transman who gets pregnant and keeps the baby is a bamf in my opinion.

There is an almost Yuppie-like sickness in here along the lines of 'I really want a child as a lifestyle-designer option or as a validation.'  I trust people a lot more who talk about wanting to be a parent, as opposed to having a child.

Quote from: tekla on August 25, 2011, 10:36:22 AM
There is an almost Yuppie-like sickness in here along the lines of 'I really want a child as a lifestyle-designer option or as a validation.'  I trust people a lot more who talk about wanting to be a parent, as opposed to having a child.

But babies are so in right now. I know the movie Bruno is old news but it shows in some bits how kids are fun acessories.

QuoteI thought that the definition of transsexualism was having an aversion of the sex parts you're born with (ftms: breasts, hips, vagina, female reproduce organs. mtfs: penis, testicles, broad shoulders etc...), wanting to remove them and wanting to have the parts of the person you really are. I don't think that "ftms" who LIKE their vagina and female reproduce system are men. The same as I don't think "mtfs" who LIKE their penis are women. They can be transgender, but definitely not transsexual.

Just because you hate certain body parts doesn't mean they can't ever be used.  I was 10 when I discovered I had a 'hole' down there.  I wanted to vomit.  Then I had sex ed in school and learned what was in that hole and what it did every month and wanted to vomit.  Then puberty hit and I was horrified, disgusted, and did vomit.  I still wanted to be a parent, though, and I figured if I had to put up with that disgusting thing it might as well be of some use.

Hated those parts and threw a party when they were gone.  Icing on the cake was having the hole closed up.  Pure joy.

Ladies have also used their parts and created kids; doesn't mean they really enjoyed doing so (though they could, sex is pleasurable!).  Enjoying sex and procreating doesn't negate the fact that one is trans.


Jay

Quote from: comatose on August 25, 2011, 06:47:50 AM
First of all, I want to make clear that I don't hate pregnant transmen. Everyone should do what they want to do. This is a discussion and I want to know the opinion of others and I want to share my opinion with others.
I thought that the definition of transsexualism was having an aversion of the sex parts you're born with (ftms: breasts, hips, vagina, female reproduce organs. mtfs: penis, testicles, broad shoulders etc...), wanting to remove them and wanting to have the parts of the person you really are. I don't think that "ftms" who LIKE their vagina and female reproduce system are men. The same as I don't think "mtfs" who LIKE their penis are women. They can be transgender, but definitely not transsexual.

Who died and made you the gender police? Honestly, I think it's pretty hypocritical when other trans people try to gatekeep and decide who is/isn't a "real man/woman." How many people out there think we aren't "real men/women" because we were born with a certain reproductive system. Think what you like about yourself, but why do you feel the need to form opinions about other people and what they choose to do with their own bodies? The way I see it, it really doesn't concern you.

Quote from: comatose on August 25, 2011, 06:47:50 AMI think Thomas Beatie makes other transsexuals look crazy and weird while they aren't. When you say the word transsexual, most people will think of Thomas Beatie (aka that crazy pregnant woman who thinks she's a man - not my words but that of a friend). I'm stealth so I don't care, but this bugs some people who present as transsexual.

:o Some bigoted cis people might think we're crazy?! Oh noooeezzz!!! The horror!!![/sarcasm]

Many in society already think we're a bunch of whack jobs. I really don't care. As far as I'm concerned it's society that needs to dump its whole dependence on maintaining a rigid binary that doesn't fit a heck of a lot of people, and which is completely illogical in the context of human history and society. We shouldn't allow that rigidity to affect us to the point of judging other trans people. We each have enough to deal with without trying to tell each other what we should or shouldn't do in order to be "trans enough" or "male enough" or "female enough." Screw that. If a transguy happens to pop out a baby, and the idea disgusts me in the context of myself and my relationship with my body, why should that affect my perspective of him? How exactly is it hurting me to accept him as the man he says he is, unless he tells me otherwise.

Quote from: Berserk on August 25, 2011, 04:01:29 PM
:o Some bigoted cis people might think we're crazy?! Oh noooeezzz!!! The horror!!![/sarcasm]

Those people would think we are crazy even without Thomas Beatie.

Haters gonna hate.  If Thomas Beatie did not exist, the haters would just find some other reason to judge us.

Okay, this is my last post, then I leave this forum.
In my country, the requirement to change your sex at your passport and birth certificate for ftms is top surgery and a hysterectomy (mostly, this is done in one intervention) and the requirement for mtfs is a vaginoplasty, and the surgeries are completely covered by insurance. I didn't know that being sterile isn't the requirement to legally change your sex in the US, and that the surgeries aren't covered by insurance. Sorry for that. I'm very interested in psychology and I want to know why someone that want to change his/her sex want to keep his/her female or male parts and likes them.

Quote from: emil on August 25, 2011, 07:13:22 AM
Ftms are men by their own definition. We are men because we define ourselves as men, whether we still have or always will have or no longer have a vagina and whether we have made peace with out body parts or loathe them does not matter. If it were not for our own definition, there wouldn't be any ftms. We do not "become" male because others judge our decisions or our looks to be male. We are male because we feel so and say so.

Imagine that you know a girl named Stephanie. She has blonde with pink dyed ponytails, likes glitter makeup, dolls, skirts, pink and tiaras. At a day, she tells you she's ftm and wants you to call her 'he' and Stephen. She doesn't want to get on hormones or getting any surgery. And even she presents as a ftm now, she still has pink ponytails, wears glitter makeup, collect dolls, likes to dress up, wears pink skirts and still acts very feminine. Would you call her 'he' and Stephen? Would you consider her as male just because she wants it?
This is an extreme case, but I think this whole gender thing goes too far. There aren't any guys (unless they want to be a girl or are ->-bleeped-<-) who do like to wear glitter makeup, love to dress up, want pink ponytails or want to reproduce as a female.

Quote from: Berserk on August 25, 2011, 04:01:29 PM
Who died and made you the gender police? Honestly, I think it's pretty hypocritical when other trans people try to gatekeep and decide who is/isn't a "real man/woman."

I didn't invent this. This is reality. If you think it is my idea that guys don't wear glitter makeup etcetera just to make you angry and tell me that I'm narrow minded, go outside and look at the people that are walking on the street. It's how nature (or God for the believers) made men and women (I didn't invented this too, this is scientifically proven). I didn't decided what are 'real men' and 'real women'. Nature and society did.
There are some stereotypically 'men' and 'women' things that are invented by society and are totally wrong, like all women must have long hair, short skirts, makeup and high heels to be sexy and attractive and that men must be cool, macho, drink beer and watch football to be a real man.
But some stereotypically things are determined by nature. Somebody with a female brain is in general more caring, emotional and less aggressive than somebody with a male brain (scientifically proven too). And someone with a female brain loves her female characteristics and don't want to think about having male characteristics and reversed (all scientifically proven).
You can have a male or female brain. If you have a male brain and a female body, you can make your body male so it fits with your brain or if you have a female brain and a male body, you can make your body female so it fits with your brain. I'm happy that the technology of today let people adjust their body to their brain.
But like I said before, some gender related things are going too far. Like that school in Sweden who educates children gender neutral. Most people, and especially children are needing clarity. It's a wrong way of educating to don't tell them their sex and let them think they can choose. They're born male or female (or intersex in exceptional cases). If they don't know that, it can lead to confusion and depression. On the other hand, maybe it's characteristic for humans to screw up and edit everything that's natural. Without humans, there wouldn't be cars, animal cruelty for stupid and ridiculous things like makeup and fur, destroyed forests, dumped chemicals, beef cows and milk cows and any dog or cat breed.
Also, I don't understand the selfish thought (of both men and women, both cis and trans) why you MUST have a biological child that carries your gen. Why is a biological child more worth than an adopted child? What's the value of a child that carries your gen? And if none of your children will want to reproduce, then your gen is extinct! What a disaster, now you don't gonna have grandchildren that will carry your superior gen and will look like you!
Ask yourself, in this time, is it responsible to throw another worthless person at the pile? By 2050, there are 10 billion people on this planet. Where's space for all that people? Who will feed them? What's the planet gonna look like? And most of the people will drive a car, eat meat and will use environmental damaging things. Just think about it.

I said what I wanted to say now. Congratulations if you've read all this text. I've learned that everything that has to do with babies, pregnancies and biological children is a very sensitive subject here and that most people react like you have attacked them personally when you say that you're against it. It wasn't my intention to attack anyone.

Oh yeah, before I forget, one more thing:

Quote from: Berserk on August 25, 2011, 04:01:29 PM
:o Some bigoted cis people might think we're crazy?! Oh noooeezzz!!! The horror!!![/sarcasm]

If you want to be funny or sarcastic, you're doing it wrong.
When you want to say something sarcastic on the internet, you must place [sarcasm] in front of you text, and [/sarcasm] behind your text. You did the last step right, but you missed the first step.
This is the same principe if you want to make your text bold, in front of your text, you place two square brackets with 'b' in it. At the end of your text, you place two square brackets too, but before you type the 'b' in it, you must add an angled bracket before you type 'b'.

So, this will be the right way to do it:
[sarcasm]:o Some bigoted cis people might think we're crazy?! Oh noooeezzz!!! The horror!!![/sarcasm]

I don't need a thank you.

Berserk, although I don't like your improper use of HTML, I really like the manga called Berserk.

Now I'm going to leave this forum forever, I don't wanna bother you guys anymore.

Best regards,
Comatose

Honestly, comatose, I think you came here just to fight.   

Gender identity =/= gender presentation so your little "example" which you took to the extreme btw, means nothing.  I'm sorry that you have taken society's idea of gender binary so far and cannot accept that not everyone subscribes to one strict set of feelings regarding their own relationship with their bodies. 

Russell Brand seems to like glitter and make up. Eddie Izzard wears dresses sometimes just because he wants to. Guys from twisted sister had big hair and wore tons of make up. Feminine men exist. Heck, when gay marriage passed in NY I was at Stonewall...a historical lgbt landmark. When it passed people threw glitter everywhere.

I personally love glitter and pink... Comatose, if you are interested in psychology, perhaps you should read more into empathy and understanding as well as having the ability to accept things which fall out of any binary or category that you feel is 'natural'.

Quote from: comatose on August 26, 2011, 10:07:02 AM
I didn't invent this. This is reality. If you think it is my idea that guys don't wear glitter makeup etcetera just to make you angry and tell me that I'm narrow minded, go outside and look at the people that are walking on the street. It's how nature (or God for the believers) made men and women (I didn't invented this too, this is scientifically proven). I didn't decided what are 'real men' and 'real women'. Nature and society did.
There are some stereotypically 'men' and 'women' things that are invented by society and are totally wrong, like all women must have long hair, short skirts, makeup and high heels to be sexy and attractive and that men must be cool, macho, drink beer and watch football to be a real man.
But some stereotypically things are determined by nature. Somebody with a female brain is in general more caring, emotional and less aggressive than somebody with a male brain (scientifically proven too). And someone with a female brain loves her female characteristics and don't want to think about having male characteristics and reversed (all scientifically proven).

I love how people like to throw around the word "scientifically proven" as though it proves the point. While science has been able to create generalizations on women = more caring, emotional, less aggressive etc., this certainly isn't the rule. It's like those who say that females are "naturally" weaker than men. While men certainly have an advantage as far as building strength/muscle faster than women, there are still women out there are by far stronger than the average man. For example, the max female bench press record at the moment (without use of performance enhancing drugs or with more than a basic lifting shirt) is 520 lbs. So again, we have people misinterpreting what science is saying. As far as your statement, there are many female-bodied, woman identified people who do not naturally have these characteristics (caring, less aggressive etc.), nor do they want to be men. If this were the case, women's team sports (just looking at the recent women's World Cup that went by) would not be achieving the same level of aggression and professionalism as it is today. Science can tell us about the tendencies of the female brain or the male brain, but by no means can it claim, at this point, to know the diversity of each. There are extremely masculine women in the world (much more masculine than some transguys) who have no problems with their female bodies. There are transguys who don't mind using the sex organs they were born with, while others have extreme dysphoria surrounding it. Being trans is not defined by the extent of dysphoria you have.

Quote from: comatose on August 26, 2011, 10:07:02 AMYou can have a male or female brain. If you have a male brain and a female body, you can make your body male so it fits with your brain or if you have a female brain and a male body, you can make your body female so it fits with your brain. I'm happy that the technology of today let people adjust their body to their brain.

And this the point where I know your "it be teh scientifically provenz!!111" statements are bull. Even a basic survey of what we know of the human brain shows that there is quite a bit of diversity when it comes to gender characteristics and the human brain. A person can have a tendency toward certain characteristics that may or may not be congruent with their sex organs/chromosomes, but not all brains are as stereotypically "sexed." For example, it's been found that one of the things the stereotypical male brain excels at is increased spacial ability. Yet there are women who have better spacial ability than some men, and viceversa. As far as the awareness of ones body as interpreted through the mind, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few gay male couples who wished they could bear one of their own biological children.

And, in fact, science has made this possible. The problem with your interpretation of what is and isn't natural, is that what is "natural" is technically anything that is possible. If the laws of nature didn't allow it to happen, then it wouldn't happen. As such, human technology is entire natural, if it weren't, the natural laws would not exist for it to be possible. And human technology has already allowed the creation of female sperm and male eggs, created by using the stem cells of an individual. As such, they foresee that in the not so distant future, lesbian couples will be able to produce their own biologically children using the female sperm of one partner to impregnate the other. The same goes for male eggs and gay couples. The technology will also help infertile couples. The only real problem I've read of them encountering is that the female couples would only be able to produce xx children (actually, it's already possible to create xx children only using female DNA, but hey, I suppose that doesn't make the rich white men of the world all that happy, and, in fact, there are already species where only "females" are responsible for reproduction and the males have been bred out or almost completely bred out), although there has been some written on mutating chromosomes to also allow for xy children. So as far as what you say is "natural"...well, science can only function through what nature allows. Your rigid gender rules and those of society (which are slowly being forced to change) really have no place in the vast possibilities of the scientific world.

Quote from: comatose on August 26, 2011, 10:07:02 AMBut like I said before, some gender related things are going too far. Like that school in Sweden who educates children gender neutral. Most people, and especially children are needing clarity. It's a wrong way of educating to don't tell them their sex and let them think they can choose. They're born male or female (or intersex in exceptional cases). If they don't know that, it can lead to confusion and depression. On the other hand, maybe it's characteristic for humans to screw up and edit everything that's natural. Without humans, there wouldn't be cars, animal cruelty for stupid and ridiculous things like makeup and fur, destroyed forests, dumped chemicals, beef cows and milk cows and any dog or cat breed.

Actually, I approve very much of what the Swedish pre-school is doing. Children gender themselves less often than adults gender children. Gender matters very little in the grand scheme of things. Many of the stereotypes we implement today in Europe and North America as far as gender roles descend from the christianization of Europe. Prior to this there is much archaeological and historical evidence to suggest that in some societies (particularly Germanic, Celtic and Slavic, and to some degree Greco-Roman) the rigidity of gender roles were not the same as today. It was not unusual, as far as archaeological and written record can tell us (as well as the known practices of neighbouring Saami tribes), for Shamans to crossdress and lie outside and between "female" and "male." There's also been recent evidence of even older societies with a wider range of accepted gender/sex identification, more particularly within the Corded Wear culture. Gender rigidity the way we know it today (and knew it for the past 1000 years) has not existed as long as society would have us think, and is really entirely social. As a social system it is entirely changeable.

Quote from: comatose on August 26, 2011, 10:07:02 AMAlso, I don't understand the selfish thought (of both men and women, both cis and trans) why you MUST have a biological child that carries your gen. Why is a biological child more worth than an adopted child? What's the value of a child that carries your gen? And if none of your children will want to reproduce, then your gen is extinct! What a disaster, now you don't gonna have grandchildren that will carry your superior gen and will look like you!
Ask yourself, in this time, is it responsible to throw another worthless person at the pile? By 2050, there are 10 billion people on this planet. Where's space for all that people? Who will feed them? What's the planet gonna look like? And most of the people will drive a car, eat meat and will use environmental damaging things. Just think about it.

That I can't answer. I never intend to have any children whatsoever whether adopted or others, nor marry or any other of that sort of thing. It's not something I'm interested in. You'll have to ask those who do want to reproduce. I might find the thought of myself pregnant to be absolutely disgusting (in fact, I'm one of those that detests their nether regions, though mostly today I pretend it doesn't exist), but that doesn't mean I superimpose my own feelings about my own body onto other transguys. I'm not that insecure...or at least I hope not.

Quote from: comatose on August 26, 2011, 10:07:02 AMOh yeah, before I forget, one more thing:If you want to be funny or sarcastic, you're doing it wrong.
When you want to say something sarcastic on the internet, you must place [sarcasm] in front of you text, and [/sarcasm] behind your text. You did the last step right, but you missed the first step.
This is the same principe if you want to make your text bold, in front of your text, you place two square brackets with 'b' in it. At the end of your text, you place two square brackets too, but before you type the 'b' in it, you must add an angled bracket before you type 'b'.

So, this will be the right way to do it:
[sarcasm]:o Some bigoted cis people might think we're crazy?! Oh noooeezzz!!! The horror!!![/sarcasm]

:D I smell a troll! ;D

@Nygeel, yeah glitter is a pretty common mainstay in the lgbtq community...I guess we just ain't natural, lol.

Quote from: comatose on August 25, 2011, 06:47:50 AM
I thought that the definition of transsexualism was having an aversion of the sex parts you're born with (ftms: breasts, hips, vagina, female reproduce organs. mtfs: penis, testicles, broad shoulders etc...), wanting to remove them and wanting to have the parts of the person you really are. I don't think that "ftms" who LIKE their vagina and female reproduce system are men. The same as I don't think "mtfs" who LIKE their penis are women. They can be transgender, but definitely not transsexual.

So you're saying because I refuse to look at the monstrosity that is the result of most bottom surgeries means I'm not a man? The fact that I'm not willing to go through a surgery to be unhappy with another part of me means I'll always be a woman? You honestly need to learn your terminology. How would you like it if someone told you that you aren't allowed to do the surgeries because you'll never have the money for it, like in my case? Because some of us can't afford it or don't want to be unhappy with the end results means we'll never be men? For someone who's supposed to be in an open-minded environment, that's really closed-minded. I think you need to step back and look at how ->-bleeped-<-ed up that statement really is and learn more about the community you claim to be a part of.

Quote from: comatose on August 26, 2011, 10:07:02 AM
Imagine that you know a girl named Stephanie. She has blonde with pink dyed ponytails, likes glitter makeup, dolls, skirts, pink and tiaras. At a day, she tells you she's ftm and wants you to call her 'he' and Stephen. She doesn't want to get on hormones or getting any surgery. And even she presents as a ftm now, she still has pink ponytails, wears glitter makeup, collect dolls, likes to dress up, wears pink skirts and still acts very feminine. Would you call her 'he' and Stephen? Would you consider her as male just because she wants it?
This is an extreme case, but I think this whole gender thing goes too far. There aren't any guys (unless they want to be a girl or are ->-bleeped-<-) who do like to wear glitter makeup, love to dress up, want pink ponytails or want to reproduce as a female.

Wow, this person really has no idea what they're talking about.

I know TONS of straight, cis-gendered MEN that wear glitter makeup and have pink hair. The fact that in this day and age such bigotry and stupidity still exists is beyond me. The mold of "male and female" was broken over 30 years ago in the Glam Rock era.

You know what? Good riddance. That's one less closed-minded elitist on this forum.

Quote from: VakarianPride on August 26, 2011, 12:21:57 PM
the monstrosity that is the result of most bottom surgeries

That is really unnecessary. 

Quote from: comatose on August 26, 2011, 10:07:02 AM
There aren't any guys (unless they want to be a girl or are ->-bleeped-<-) who do like to wear glitter makeup, love to dress up, want pink ponytails or want to reproduce as a female.
I didn't invent this. This is reality. If you think it is my idea that guys don't wear glitter makeup etcetera just to make you angry and tell me that I'm narrow minded, go outside and look at the people that are walking on the street.

obviously you don't live in new york city.... lol

not here to fight because my opinion is irrelevant but if half of us who live in big cities were to heed your advice and look outside, we would see men in high heels and pink makeup. who gives a ->-bleeped-<-? a person on the street who i don't know who has a penis is wearing glitter. alert the media.

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 26, 2011, 12:46:26 PM
That is really unnecessary.

How? I've seen thousands of surgeries for phalo and metoido and they're undesirable, even to most of the guys I know who have had them done. I'm not going to apologize for the truth, so don't expect me to change th epost.

Quote from: VakarianPride on August 26, 2011, 01:19:55 PM
How? I've seen thousands of surgeries for phalo and metoido and they're undesirable, even to most of the guys I know who have had them done. I'm not going to apologize for the truth, so don't expect me to change th epost.

It's not necessarily to ->-bleeped-<- talk the appearance of someone's genitals.  The results may not be up to your standards but that doesn't change the fact that many guys (some of who are here) have had these surgeries and already get enough flak from the cis people putting their surgeries down and don't need the same treatment from other trans people. 

Quote from: VakarianPride on August 26, 2011, 01:19:55 PM
I've seen thousands of surgeries for phalo and metoido and they're undesirable to me

fixed that for you

How cute, you're telling me how to think! Have you not seen the thousands of posts from transmen around the world on how horrible their bottom surgery looks to them? Apparently not. Do your homework before you tell me I need to change my opinion in a factual topic. And don't waste your time trying to reply to me, it won't change my mind I assure you.

Quote from: VakarianPride on August 26, 2011, 01:42:06 PM
How cute, you're telling me how to think! Have you not seen the thousands of posts from transmen around the world on how horrible their bottom surgery looks to them? Apparently not. Do your homework before you tell me I need to change my opinion in a factual topic. And don't waste your time trying to reply to me, it won't change my mind I assure you.

Oh I wasn't telling you how to think.  I just said you don't need to spew your hateful opinions here. 

Let's please try to maintain some civility here, hm?  Agree to disagree, move on.  Plenty of threads here on the forums and plenty of love to go around. :)

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 26, 2011, 01:48:37 PM
Oh I wasn't telling you how to think.  I just said you don't need to spew your hateful opinions here. 

...dude, are we really not allowed to express any opinion ever? If you don't agree with it, just ignore it. While I don't agree with his opinion, that doesn't make it any less valid. Really, I would have barely noticed it had you not jumped all over him.

In the immortal words of The Who, "Why can't we all just get along?"

Here's my take.

Saying things like "all bottom surgery sucks. Why would anybody get that?" Etc is screwed up. It's cissexist and invalidating. Sure you can say it, sure you can think it but that makes you sound like an a-hole.

Saying things like "real men don't like glitter or blah blah blah" also cissexist, screwed up, invalidating and makes you sound like an a-hole.

So yea, you can think these things. You can say these things but realize that you're in a place that's supposed to be inclusive. Many guys have surgery that they are happy with. Many guys like glitter, having long hair and not giving a crap about passing (cause generally "passing" is a busted concept in and of itself).

FUN READING THINGS ABOUT TRANS 101:
http://tranarchism.com/trans-basics/ (http://tranarchism.com/trans-basics/)

The guy that runs the site is pretty boss. I think in general he's very understanding and okay with answering questions. It has flaws but it's pretty well written.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1232.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fff369%2Fsummersforecast%2Fgifs%2Ffact.gif&hash=ecb1aef5e5f80c4605b34ab6425186054e8143a0)
Most trans men that have bottom surgery are happier post op.

Quote from: TroyTransistor on August 26, 2011, 02:49:32 PM
...dude, are we really not allowed to express any opinion ever? If you don't agree with it, just ignore it. While I don't agree with his opinion, that doesn't make it any less valid. Really, I would have barely noticed it had you not jumped all over him.

Just because you are transsexual does not make it ok to say that lower surgery results are ugly or inferior.  Comments about how inadequate lower surgery results are are one reason that post-lower surgery guys hesitate to share their results and their experiences, making it very, very difficult for people to get good, candid information in the decision making process.  Think about all the discussion about top surgery, and all the available images of outcomes.  These resources do not exist in the same way for men considering lower surgery.  If you have benefited from the images of and information about top surgery, imagine how much harder the top surgery process would be without that.  Please consider that men making decisions about lower surgery do not have similar resources, and understand that part of the reason for that is lazy, careless, disrespectful, ill-informed commentary on lower surgery.

I've yet to be able to get top surgery, or even start T as I'm under 18, but I'm glad for the information I can find on top surgery. I wish I could access more information on bottom surgery (I really want phallo if I get it, but I'm not sure I will) and it sucks that guys are uncomfortable with sharing the results of their procedures.

HOWEVER

As I've already stated, I don't think it was a big deal before you made it one. A simple "Sorry, but I disagree" would have been just fine, and we could have gotten on our way. I feel for the guys who are stressed about sharing, and that's not what I'm debating here. I just think you went about it the wrong way by declaring his personal opinion to be incorrect.

I have two comments about this thread.

First, if you want people to understand that you are voicing an opinion, then phrase it as an opinion, with a clear first-person qualification like I think or I believe or to me or in my opinion. Don't state your opinion as if it were fact.

Especially in written communication, there is a big difference between "Dogs are disgusting" and "I don't like dogs."

Second, everybody please watch your step here. Too much squabbling, and I will lock this thread.

I'm not against it and I can understand why it happens. I think it kind of defeats the purpose for transitioning in the first place. And if your hoping to be stealth while pregnant, is it possible?. you dont just grow and lose a beer belly in 9 months. And sometimes I see it as kind of rubbing it in to the rest of us MtF's, kind of like saying " Look, I can transition and STILL be more woman than you'll ever be." But then again I dont know, I've not met too many FtM's who have done that. does it happen alot?

I have had lower surgery and am on forums with lots of guys who have had lower surgery.  I have yet to see thousands and thousands of guys who are unhappy with their results. Quite the opposite, in fact, despite complications that have occurred.

FWIW I love my penis (as hideous as you might think it is).

I also don't mind if you think my genitals are hideous.  I used to look at pics myself and think, if that's all you get, why bother?  But it made the world of difference being anatomically correct, even if it's small.


Jay

Quote from: Keaira on August 27, 2011, 04:59:16 AM
I'm not against it and I can understand why it happens. I think it kind of defeats the purpose for transitioning in the first place. And if your hoping to be stealth while pregnant, is it possible?. you dont just grow and lose a beer belly in 9 months. And sometimes I see it as kind of rubbing it in to the rest of us MtF's, kind of like saying " Look, I can transition and STILL be more woman than you'll ever be." But then again I dont know, I've not met too many FtM's who have done that. does it happen alot?

Not every trans person sees being trans the same way. Not everyone wants to go stealth (I think this is an incorrect assumption that's often made on online support forums), not everyone wants to hide the fact that they're trans. Not everyone sees being trans as something to be ashamed of, nor necessarily agrees with the binary of what being a woman/man/something-else-entirely means. I also don't think that gay transguys should be deciding whether to get pregnant or not based on how it makes other people feel. There are many transwomen who have had their own biological children, others who have frozen sperm so that they could have their own biological children post-transition. I don't think that's an afront to transguys who can't have their own biological children the way they'd like to (meaning, impregnating somebody else). Just the way I don't think it's an afront to me or other transguys when one transguy decides he wants to get pregnant after transitioning. It doesn't make him or others who choose that path "women" or "lesser men," nor should it mean anything as far as the rest of us who don't want to are concerned.

I also think making statements like "Look, I can transition and STILL be more woman than you'll ever be" are pretty gross...both towards transguys and transwomen. The ability to get pregnant isn't the determining factor of whether or not someone is or isn't a "real" woman or man. There are a lot of infertile women out there and their infertility says nothing about their womanhood.

Sorry if this comes off as harsh, but it really ->-bleeped-<-ing bugs me when we, as trans people, sit here and judge other trans people's decisions about their bodies...as if we don't get that enough from the cis world. I think we start becoming really cissexist ourselves when we do that.

Quote from: Berserk on August 27, 2011, 08:50:31 AM
Not every trans person sees being trans the same way. Not everyone wants to go stealth (I think this is an incorrect assumption that's often made on online support forums), not everyone wants to hide the fact that they're trans. Not everyone sees being trans as something to be ashamed of, nor necessarily agrees with the binary of what being a woman/man/something-else-entirely means. I also don't think that gay transguys should be deciding whether to get pregnant or not based on how it makes other people feel. There are many transwomen who have had their own biological children, others who have frozen sperm so that they could have their own biological children post-transition. I don't think that's an afront to transguys who can't have their own biological children the way they'd like to (meaning, impregnating somebody else). Just the way I don't think it's an afront to me or other transguys when one transguy decides he wants to get pregnant after transitioning. It doesn't make him or others who choose that path "women" or "lesser men," nor should it mean anything as far as the rest of us who don't want to are concerned.

I also think making statements like "Look, I can transition and STILL be more woman than you'll ever be" are pretty gross...both towards transguys and transwomen. The ability to get pregnant isn't the determining factor of whether or not someone is or isn't a "real" woman or man. There are a lot of infertile women out there and their infertility says nothing about their womanhood.

Sorry if this comes off as harsh, but it really ->-bleeped-<-ing bugs me when we, as trans people, sit here and judge other trans people's decisions about their bodies...as if we don't get that enough from the cis world. I think we start becoming really cissexist ourselves when we do that.

I couldn't agree with the majority of this post more. I have personally given birth to a now 5 yr old son, and I would never take that back just because of my identity. Children are an important part of the world, and having one of your own genetic structure means a lot to most of humanity. I don't find my manhood is insulted by the fact that I gave life. In fact, I actually tend to think of it as a little superior... (not against anyone who may no be able to nor had the opportunity I swear! Infact, I had thought I was infertile for many years until I became pregnan, so I know how anyone who cannot have kids would feel...) My genes will not be able to be shared with the world once I do go through the changes I need...  so having them out there beforehand is a way to ensure my legacy lives on. Ask any man, and that is a huge thing to many of them. Also, it would be beneficial to have a trans-aware parent, so if my son ever approaches me and states he thinks he should be a woman, I would know how he feels and help him better than non trans aware parents may be able to.

Also, importantly, I was at a suicidal stage of my life.. I started drinking heavily and acting recklessly.. then I found out I was pregnant, so, through the sadness and depression I had at the body I'd been assigned at birth, I had something good come from it to distract that depression. I stopped cutting, stopped planning the end of my life, and for that moment, stopped dwelling on my own issues long enough to bring a healthy, strong, happy baby into the world. Now that I have done that, I can feel closure as a female and work on pursuing who I really am.. (If I was born male, I'd be far less likely to have reproduced, because no matter how hard one may try, guys can't get guys pregnant!!) So in closing, having a baby is not an unmanly thing to do to me... and if someone needs closure before shutting down their baby factory, its perfectly okay in my opinion. Other's may disagree... But that is fine, we have this paper that says its okay called the Bill of Rights.. ;)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc6%2F281434_10150246664416121_701781120_7550621_7567388_n.jpg&hash=716407abb3ca8a448bfce66030a2f16c22116167)
My son and I. I could never think that this combination was ever a mistake to make.

I can feel closure as a female

That's a wonderful way to think of it.

I once saw Bob Dylan introduce one of his old songs in concert by saying: This song used to go like that, now it goes like this.  Always thought that line works for a lot of stuff.

Quote from: tekla on August 27, 2011, 01:27:35 PM
I can feel closure as a female

That's a wonderful way to think of it.

I once saw Bob Dylan introduce one of his old songs in concert by saying: This song used to go like that, now it goes like this.  Always thought that line works for a lot of stuff.

Thanks. :) I honestly think the healthy way to deal with a lot of changes or progressions is achieving closure with/about anything that could hinder or place doubt on the intended changes... For instance, reproduction in this case. I have a strong parental instinct inside me, so if I had never had my child before transition was considered, I may have looked back in regret or felt something was missing. Of course there is adoption, which I am all for.. But considering expenses that will certainly incur with my changes, I would never be able to do that on top of it with my financial situation... So I would be left with just another unfulfilled desire/need/want....

Bob Dylan was both an intellectual and musical wonder. I love that line...

I've screwed up a lot of stuff in my life, some of it I ->-bleeped-<-ed up so bad that had I been trying to ->-bleeped-<- it up I couldn't have done any better.  So?  OK.  I don't regret it, I don't regret trying.  I don't regret the times when I had choices and picked one over the other, like when me and my friends decided that going to see the Dead play sounded like more fun that prom.  (it was).

The only stuff I regret is the stuff I didn't do or didn't try to do.  It's the 'could have, should have, would have' stuff that messes with your mind in the long run.

Hate me for my opinion, I don't give a ->-bleeped-<-. I offered it in as nice a way as possible. I'm done here.

Quote from: tekla on August 27, 2011, 02:14:49 PM
The only stuff I regret is the stuff I didn't do or didn't try to do.  It's the 'could have, should have, would have' stuff that messes with your mind in the long run.

Very very very true! I try to live my life without those things ultimately becoming my downfall......

@Mango: dear sir, your kid is adorable.

As for the topic of pregnant FTMs: wanting kids, I think, is not a "woman's want" but a human want.  Adoption is a wonderful option, but the desire to have genetic offspring is clearly a powerful thing for some individuals.  Medical science has not gotten to the point that we can father children in the traditional sense.  There really are limited options, and technology that would allow transmen to have genetic children while not carrying the child themselves can be prohibitively expensive.  I think it's entirely up to the individual to decide what they want to do with their own reproductive organs.

I do harbor some concern over pregnancies that occur after years of T, just because of the lack of scientific study in the area.  Healthy births have been reported, though.

From what I've heard one would have to be off T for quite some time actually (is it like 1-2 years) in order to produce eggs again (if at all)...and the longer one has been on T the higher the chances that the factory's been closed down in the meantime.
I'm guessing as soon as hormone levels are within "normal female range" it's pretty safe, or at least it's not more of a gamble than receiving fertility treatment.

Concerning adoption I just wanted to add that adoption sounds like a nice idea to many people - but being FTM doesn't exactly secure you a top spot on their lists...of course there's foster care, but I personally believe that's a whole different situation - providing a home for a teenager is different from raising a child from birth - it's not the same kind of attachment and it's a different way of building a family.

Another option that was mentioned are surrogates. While the concept is simply illegal in many countries (including where I live), I don't see how it's any more "natural" to make someone carry someone else's child (and taking the child from the woman who delivered it).  If surrogates are in accordance with "nature", then so are pregnant FTMs.

Quote from: Keaira on August 27, 2011, 04:59:16 AM
And sometimes I see it as kind of rubbing it in to the rest of us MtF's, kind of like saying " Look, I can transition and STILL be more woman than you'll ever be."

I'm pretty sure most people don't get pregnant just to make someone/MTFs feel bad  ;)

I think that pregnancy is a beautiful thing. It doesn't matter who it is that is going to have a baby. It's an intensely personal choice I think (unless it was unplanned but really keeping the baby would be a choice too!) and who are we to say that it's wrong?
I may be an FTM but I have thought about having a child. I can honestly tell you that I would much rather legit father a baby than to carry the child (I think about that a lot actually) but when it comes down to it I think that if I'm going to have a child in the future I would rather carry it than adopt. Now I have nothing against adoption or surrogates. I was adopted myself. I just think I would like a biological child. Who wouldn't?

So I guess I'm not really for or against. I thin that it's a choice and that we can't say whether or not it's wrong - or else we would be just as bad as all those people out there who say that there's something wrong with US.

Just my thoughts.


~Jasper~

Kia Ora,

::) Not sure whether trans-America have access to this interview on local TV...

http://tvnz.co.nz/20-20-news/my-pregnant-dad-part-four-14-33-video-4367338/video (http://tvnz.co.nz/20-20-news/my-pregnant-dad-part-four-14-33-video-4367338/video)

::) I'm happy for them and hope all goes well...

Metta Zenda :)

we would be just as bad as all those people out there who say that there's something wrong with US.

Well I've been here in the US all my life and I don't know a single person who does not thing that something is seriously wrong with the USA these days, we don't seem to be able to agree on what it is however.

I think that was more of an emphasis on us as a group, not the States ^_^

Quote from: Ender on August 27, 2011, 05:17:07 PM
@Mango: dear sir, your kid is adorable.

As for the topic of pregnant FTMs: wanting kids, I think, is not a "woman's want" but a human want.  Adoption is a wonderful option, but the desire to have genetic offspring is clearly a powerful thing for some individuals.  Medical science has not gotten to the point that we can father children in the traditional sense.  There really are limited options, and technology that would allow transmen to have genetic children while not carrying the child themselves can be prohibitively expensive.  I think it's entirely up to the individual to decide what they want to do with their own reproductive organs.

I do harbor some concern over pregnancies that occur after years of T, just because of the lack of scientific study in the area.  Healthy births have been reported, though.

Why thank you!! :)

I totally am glad others are on teh same page. Its not necessarily inferior to want offspring of ones own genes... especially when persuing a change that will absolutely nullify the option to go back... because FTM are not able to start producing sperm and semen and so forth, then I find no fault in the economical option of bearing children before transition... since surrogates and other options are financially draining, on an already expensive path of life. I don't think everyone has to agree, but it is how I feel...

I read/scrolled through most of the thread, then it got off topic and I skipped a part so bear with my if it's already been said.

There's a guy (gay ftm) on Youtube who posted a vlog with a similar question not too long ago. He is married with another ftm, both (I believe) have been on T for a longer time and had top surgery. Also, he lives in Sweden.

Now in Sweden, gay couples are not allowed to adopt kids yet he would love to be a parent one day. Meaning his only option of getting a child would be to get pregnant himself (or move out of the country). I don't have the right answer to it, and I hardly care really 'cause I think each should do it's own. But just my two cents ;)

Quote from: Nathan90 on August 28, 2011, 12:52:20 PM
I read/scrolled through most of the thread, then it got off topic and I skipped a part so bear with my if it's already been said.

There's a guy (gay ftm) on Youtube who posted a vlog with a similar question not too long ago. He is married with another ftm, both (I believe) have been on T for a longer time and had top surgery. Also, he lives in Sweden.

Now in Sweden, gay couples are not allowed to adopt kids yet he would love to be a parent one day. Meaning his only option of getting a child would be to get pregnant himself (or move out of the country). I don't have the right answer to it, and I hardly care really 'cause I think each should do it's own. But just my two cents ;)

See, and being as my preference is also toward men, I am okay with having my own child... I feel for those Swedish men though, that is just sad that they can't even adopt just because a country has a specific mindset on same sex couples. I think all that should be required for adoption should be a background check, references, and an evaluation to only rule out being psycho...

yeah it's not as if there's not enough children waiting for parents to go around....... why do they rule out loving, responsible people in favor of letting those poor children rot in orphanages and flawed and abusive foster care systems

And then the foster kids are turned loose at eighteen with the clothes on their back.

It can be legally/socially risky to have your own kid if you're FTM. Look at what Jeatyn went through--and he was pre-transition. So if you can pull it off and are willing to go through it and run the risk, I say do it.

I don't like the fallout FTMs get from the "Thomas Beatie isn't a real man because he's pregnant" crowd--I don't think Beatie is doing us any favors right now--but it could be that, in the long run, cutting-edge actions like his will help to educate more people and even mess with the binary a little so that it matters less in the future. Who knows?

But, yes, it gives me the screaming heebie-jeebies because I would never choose it for myself.

Quote from: Arch on August 28, 2011, 04:06:39 PM
I don't like the fallout FTMs get from the "Thomas Beatie isn't a real man because he's pregnant" crowd--I don't think Beatie is doing us any favors right now--but it could be that, in the long run, cutting-edge actions like his will help to educate more people.

I second this almost exactly. I don't mean to offend any of you guys here who are more creative or exploratory with gender expression than I am, but I'm a pretty normal stereotypical guy. I wear cargo shorts and I can't match colors and I'm happier in front of the tv with a beer when football is on than any other time. So just keep that in mind when reading what I'm about to say.

It's a shame that there aren't many normal people to give trans men a good name. Seriously? I mean, for number one, you can count on one hand the number of trans men society has even heard of, Cher's kid being one and Thomas Beatie as the second. They're more in the know than I if there are more....

So that means 50% of general knowledge of trans men comes from someone who was publicly identified as a lesbian for a couple decades and the other 50% comes from someone who had 3 children in his own uterus while sporting a beard. I don't actually have anything against men who first identified as lesbians or men who choose to get pregnant, but I think all of us can agree that these two people have definite potential to confuse such an undereducated society.

This calls into play the debate of "stealth vs out" for the benefit of the community which I would prefer NOT TO BRING UP IN A LENGTHY DISCUSSION ON THIS THREAD. I for one am not willing to be as publicly out as some men for the benefit of the community. Call me selfish, call me immature, call me a coward, but that's my decision and mine alone. At the same time, I wish there were more "normal" men to be the faces of the community... I guess that makes me both a hypocrite and a binary-stereotype pusher. Oh well. Life is confusing.

Who is Jeatyn?

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 28, 2011, 04:24:18 PM
Who is Jeatyn?

was that something i said? i've never heard of a person by that name.

I don't think Beatie is doing us any favors right now

The whole going on welfare deal ain't helping that's for sure.

And to be sure that was Jeatyn's problem too.  If he had not been on public assistance, then the government would not have cared.

I definitely come out on the opposite side as far as Beatie and Chaz. If anything, I think that Chaz and the image he presented to the mainstream were damaging to the trans community because of his own personality and generally blaming T for being sexist and generally acting like an arse, lol. He's kind of what I mean when I talk about guys who try to create women into these "strange beasts" that they want to completely separate themselves from because all they care about is overcompensating as far as their own masculinity. I don't think it's damaging at all that Chaz identified as a lesbian before hand. If society gets "the wrong idea" from that, then it's on society to learn something on their own. I see wanting "normal transguys" as the representatives society sees in the same light as I see the comments about how Pride should be more about showing "normal" lgbtq folks to society. I really don't care much for "normal" and "abnormal." The way I see it, it's society that has to change its views, and it's slowly doing that as generations come and go. I just don't think guys like Beatie or any other transguy that might not look "normal" to society should have to take into consideration some in the community's squeamishness before they do something that affects their own lives and their own bodies. I also think that when we say that Beatie isn't doing "us" any favours, that we also have to realise that we're fairly divided in our community as far as what is and isn't good for us as a community. That Beatie is happy is really all that matters, imo.

On the whole stealth thing, to each their own. The way I view it for myself, I'm not ashamed to be trans and I feel like if I hide the fact that I'm trans then I'm also telling society that there's something wrong with me that needs to be hidden. I guess I just don't care to be a "normal guy" or not. I'd rather be visible to society and remain active within the trans community so that one day society as a whole can send the binary toppling to the ground. I guess I feel like stealth, for me, implies that I need to constantly compare myself to society's view of what cisguys should be as what the "real way" to be a guy is. And coming back to transguys who decide to get pregnant, I guess that's another reason I support them even though I'd never want to do it myself. It just shows society that there are different ways to be a guy; that the stereotypical way is not the be all and end all.

Oh and yeah, I'm also wondering on the Jeatyn thing...I think I've missed something.

Jeatyn was a former member who was a pregnant transman.  He had quite a few troubles including the state wanting to talk away the baby right after it was born.  If I remember correctly.  I'm wondering what happened to him?  I'm sure the baby has been born by now?   I really hope he's okay. 

As to where I fall on this whole topic, it is my personal opinion that I owe people the respect of addressing them as they want to be addressed.  If a person was pregnant and identified as male I wouldn't hesitate.  We could laugh over male pregnancy in fan fiction if he wanted.  If someone with pink pigtails and glitter and dolls and so on wanted to be called Stephen then I would.   

Before I had my daughter I was thinking seriously about transitioning.  Not long after she was born and weaned I started T.  Does that make me a pregnant transperson?  Since I had the thought of transitioning in my head?  I'm not sure why anyone would be against it.  The biological possibilities of my body have nothing to do with the gender of my mind.  I'm not trying to define what it means to be transgender through my own experience.  I'm just living my life the best way I can.

I am happy being stealth now.  If someone asked than I wouldn't deny it but I'm not going to be the one who brings it up.   

Quote from: tekla on August 28, 2011, 04:40:49 PM
I don't think Beatie is doing us any favors right now

The whole going on welfare deal ain't helping that's for sure.

I'm confused--Thomas Beatie is on welfare?

Plus side of Thomas Beatie: people don't always assume I'm a CD/TV when I say I'm a trans man.

think that Chaz and the image he presented to the mainstream were damaging to the trans community

You ain't seen nothing yet, wait till he gets out and gets fat all over Dancing With the Stars.  The publicity has been 90% negative already (and HIGHLY negative at that), starting with the fact that not only is he not a 'star' he's not even a D-List celebrity.  His attention whoring ways - failed rock band, failed self-appointed 'lesbian' spokesperson - will now succeed at becoming the self-appointed FtM spokesman and he's going to be the big fat face of TransMen everywhere now.  Normally a group seeks out a person for that position because of specific qualities like being sympathetic, being successful, and a having at least base level of physical attractiveness.  Chaz is 0-3 and in the Big Leagues, that's a strike-out.  Really, his last outing before the trans thing was being on Celebrity Fit Club 3 (2006) - that was obviously a whale of a success.

He's the Trans Bristol Palin.  Great.

I'm confused--Thomas Beatie is on welfare?

A Google search for 'Thomas Beatie is on welfare' - highlight the phrase, then right click and choose the option, 'google search' - will yield about a quarter of a million hits.

@Nygeel: Agreed. Even though I've only really told a few people, I feel like maybe having Beatie in the world was a good thing for us in that it made the rest of society more aware.

To be entirely honest, the first time I heard about Beatie I didn't like the thought of a pregnant trans man. But now after I actually put some thought into it, as long as he is happy then what more is there to say? Isn't what we all want from life just that - happiness?

Who are we to deny each other and ourselves the happiness that we deserve?

Quote from: -Ryan- on August 28, 2011, 03:59:24 PM
yeah it's not as if there's not enough children waiting for parents to go around....... why do they rule out loving, responsible people in favor of letting those poor children rot in orphanages and flawed and abusive foster care systems

EXACTLY!

In fact, if you want a HWB (that's a healthy white baby in adoption lingo) from a drug/alcohol free mother, as most people do, there is in fact far fewer babies then people who want them.  However, if your willing to take a non-white baby, or an older child, or one with physical or emotional problems, there are tons of them.

Quote from: Squirrel698 on August 28, 2011, 08:47:04 PM
As to where I fall on this whole topic, it is my personal opinion that I owe people the respect of addressing them as they want to be addressed.  If a person was pregnant and identified as male I wouldn't hesitate.  We could laugh over male pregnancy in fan fiction if he wanted.  If someone with pink pigtails and glitter and dolls and so on wanted to be called Stephen then I would.   

Before I had my daughter I was thinking seriously about transitioning.  Not long after she was born and weaned I started T.  Does that make me a pregnant transperson?  Since I had the thought of transitioning in my head?  I'm not sure why anyone would be against it.  The biological possibilities of my body have nothing to do with the gender of my mind.  I'm not trying to define what it means to be transgender through my own experience.  I'm just living my life the best way I can.

I am happy being stealth now.  If someone asked than I wouldn't deny it but I'm not going to be the one who brings it up.   

thanks for posting squirrel. This is exactly how I feel. I was considering transition before I got pregnant with my son. I put the whole idea on the back burner so we could have a child. The pregnancy was very difficult; I was depressed a lot of the time, feeling very de-masculinized, but I love my son and it was worth it. I wont ever have another child, I couldn't ever do it again. I haven't started T yet, but I've been full time for about a year now. Like squirrel said, I'm just living life exactly how I feel.

Quote from: tekla on August 28, 2011, 11:16:30 PM
I'm confused--Thomas Beatie is on welfare?

A Google search for 'Thomas Beatie is on welfare' - highlight the phrase, then right click and choose the option, 'google search' - will yield about a quarter of a million hits.

Sorry, I forgot to delete my post. I did a Google search right after and found out way more than I ever wanted to know about Thomas Beatie.

found out way more than I ever wanted to know about Thomas Beatie

I'm sure most people feel this way.

Quote from: Squirrel698 on August 28, 2011, 08:47:04 PM
I'm wondering what happened to him?  I'm sure the baby has been born by now?   I really hope he's okay. 

Squirrel- Jeatyn posted a few months back I believe it was saying that he and his daughter are doing okay. If I remember correctly they dropped the case against him too.


As for the original topic honestly I'm a lot like Ryan, basically I'm the "stereotypical guy" or whatever so I can't say much but I will say that I think gender is a lot different than society classifies it and It's not my job to judge what is right or wrong when it comes to self expression, so I don't.

Personally, I wouldn't want to give birth. But I have to admit, my hardest dysphoria comes from not being capable of fathering my own child.
I don't just want a child that's mine. I want a child that's mine and my partner's. I want to be able to see my wife pregnant and know that that's her and me in there. It's something I've actually cried against my girlfriend's chest because of...
I don't even know whether or not I definitely want a child one day, but I just wish I were able to father a child.

I was reading about how same sex reproduction could be possible by removing the DNA from a donor egg or sperm and replacing it with one of the would be parents's DNA. There's some limits, like lesbian/ftm couples would only be able to have daughters, and male/mtf couples might produce a YY embryo, which wouldn't live. Kinda interesting, but weird.

I had heard about a study done on lab mice where they used a certain drug to completely change female mice to males. It's gene therapy, rather than hormone therapy. But as far as human studies, they're only trying to develop it to work on XY intersex men... It kind of felt like a harsh blow when I read that the researchers said specifically they had no interest in broadening their research to include ftm transsexuals....

But what you mentioned would be interesting... Do you know how far they've gone with this in research?

Nope, it doesn't seem like anything that's going to happen in the immediate future. Conservative groups would be all over that.

I'm pro-cloning, so I'm definitely for this cloning cousin. :P

Quote from: TheAwesomePrussia on August 29, 2011, 05:52:44 PM
Personally, I wouldn't want to give birth. But I have to admit, my hardest dysphoria comes from not being capable of fathering my own child.
I don't just want a child that's mine. I want a child that's mine and my partner's. I want to be able to see my wife pregnant and know that that's her and me in there.

i feel exactly this way. me an my wife are going to have kids... but they'll only biologically be hers. :'(

My girlfriend says if we decide to be parents, she'd want to adopt. One thing she's very adamant about is that she thinks a child should be proud of being adopted. She gets really angry with kids who get upset when they're told they were adopted. She told one girl, "You were wanted! How is that a bad thing?!"
She's been reminded all her life that she was an "accident", I know it's something that bothers her. So I think I'd like to adopt a child with her if we decided to have kids. Seeing it the way she does, I feel like my getting so depressed over not being able to have a biological child is kind of silly... >n>

I have no problem with adoption since I can't have kids on my own any way (and the whole pregnancy phobia I mentioned earlier!) There are plenty of kids already born and those to be born that can use better, loving families. The only problem with adoption, at least here in the U.S. is all the hoops they put you through. I mean, I understand why they do, but between that and the costs it makes it prohibitive for many people who would make great parents.

About a week ago, two of my friends were talking about a local adoption agency especially for LGBT kids/parents. I missed the details--in fact, I'm not even sure whether it was a real agency, a proposed agency, or wishful thinking on the part of my friends. But later we were talking about how cool it would be for unwanted queer kids to be able to be adopted by queer parents.

It just blows my mind that people could throw their own child out of the house just because the kid is gay or trans. People can tell me the reasons, but I will never quite get it.

Quote from: Arch on August 30, 2011, 01:03:30 AM
About a week ago, two of my friends were talking about a local adoption agency especially for LGBT kids/parents. I missed the details--in fact, I'm not even sure that it was a real agency, a proposed agency, or wishful thinking on the part of my friends. But later we were talking about how cool it would be for unwanted queer kids to be able to be adopted by queer parents.

It just blows my mind that people could throw their own child out of the house just because the kid is gay or trans. People can tell me the reasons, but I will never quite get it.

The agency we looked at in Eugene, OR accepts LGBT couples who want to adopt and they have pretty good placement. They also place older children (even though of course everyone wants babies). You just have to have about $20k and go through all these hoops ... which like I said is kinda cost prohibitive.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on August 30, 2011, 01:06:10 AM
The agency we looked at in Eugene, OR accepts LGBT couples who want to adopt and they have pretty good placement. They also place older children (even though of course everyone wants babies). You just have to have about $20k and go through all these hoops ... which like I said is kinda cost prohibitive.

I was born in Portland and I was adopted. I hear the process went smoothly and was easy after they ha all the paperwork sorted out.

I'm definitely pro adoption!

Quote from: insideontheoutside on August 30, 2011, 01:06:10 AM
The agency we looked at in Eugene, OR accepts LGBT couples who want to adopt and they have pretty good placement. They also place older children (even though of course everyone wants babies). You just have to have about $20k and go through all these hoops ... which like I said is kinda cost prohibitive.

There are numerous agencies that will help LGBT parents, but this one specifically matches LGBT kids with LGBT parents. That's why I'm wondering if my friends were just speculating about the perfect adoption agency instead of talking about a real agency. I wasn't paying full attention, I'm afraid.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on August 30, 2011, 01:06:10 AM
The agency we looked at in Eugene, OR accepts LGBT couples who want to adopt and they have pretty good placement. They also place older children (even though of course everyone wants babies). You just have to have about $20k and go through all these hoops ... which like I said is kinda cost prohibitive.

I would really like to adopt from Russia. I plan to live in Germany, but I'm still trying to figure out whether or not my pre-transition history would have to emigrate with me... I would think that if my U.S. Birth Certificate and important documents all say 'male' (which they should by then), then I wouldn't be subject to the legal requirement of bottom SRS for a male legal identification marker in Germany. Bottom surgery is just something I don't think I'll be able to afford until I get a job over there.

Edit: Reason being that Russia doesn't allow LGBT adoption yet...

About Germany: you no longer need to have bottom surgery, nor any kind of surgery,  to get your gender marker changed. If it's been changed already and you have male on your documents, you'll be fine anyways.
You cannot adopt in Germany as an LGBT couple - one partner can adopt the child and the other can then have a step child adoption later.

I am not against it, but I would never get pregnant myself. If other guys want to, then they should! Everybody should be entitled to do what they want (within reason, of course.....) But I could never deal with being pregnant. I want children someday, but I want to adopt.

However, I am concerned that because some of the only ftms that are really in the news were  "Pregnant Men," which I think could possibly make people think of trans men as nothing more but women. And that is a false opinion which could damage the guys' self esteem.

But overall, it's not for me to judge....

Hi Emil,
to my knowing THAT (no more bottom surgery) always and ONLY applied for FtMs.

It is considered to be too "much in asking" by the State for a FtM to have bottom surgery (Phalopasty or Metoidioplasty)

For MtF the bottom surgery SRS is still a requirement, unless that has changed most recently.

I'd love to know if that actually HAS changed!

Lastly it needs to be proved (by 2 doctors letters) that for both (MtF, FTM) we are sterile i.e. hysterectomised and SRS for MtF.

If you have noticeable breasts (FtM) it means to got to do something there too (breast reduction) as you just would not pass otherwise --- right?

Just my 2 cents :-)
Axelle

Hi Axelle, it actually has changed, about half a year ago. No surgery whatsoever is required anymore to get your gender marker changed in Germany (nor HRT or sterilization). That paragraph was dropped after a decision by the highest German court. The requirements for the gender change and the name change are now virtually identical - two therapists need to write a report stating that the person is trans (they usually do so after one 1-4 hour appointment).

Quote from: emil on August 31, 2011, 03:35:29 PM
About Germany: you no longer need to have bottom surgery, nor any kind of surgery,  to get your gender marker changed. If it's been changed already and you have male on your documents, you'll be fine anyways.
You cannot adopt in Germany as an LGBT couple - one partner can adopt the child and the other can then have a step child adoption later.

I would hope that, if nothing else, when adopting from Russia we should be able to adopt as a straight couple, without being classified as LGBT. If I live as male, look male, sound male, and have a male marker on all my legal documents (including U.S. Birth Certificate, since Iowa gives you a completely new BC), and I'm married to a woman, I wouldn't think they'd require me to drop my pants just to prove that I'm male. :/

Quote from: emil on September 01, 2011, 03:55:05 PM
Hi Axelle, it actually has changed, about half a year ago. No surgery whatsoever is required anymore to get your gender marker changed in Germany (nor HRT or sterilization). That paragraph was dropped after a decision by the highest German court. The requirements for the gender change and the name change are now virtually identical - two therapists need to write a report stating that the person is trans (they usually do so after one 1-4 hour appointment).

Yippie!
Thanks dude, that might be light at the end of my TS tunnel.
Though I'll have to go to the German Embassy in SA to figure out what exactly I have to do.
I'll do it after SRS, thinking it may just help.

Thanks again,
Axelle

you're very welcome, glad I was of help!