Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Just what the title says.

The more time I spend on this forum, the more creeped out I get by the constant, casual sexism in just about every thread. The majority of it seems to be directed at cisgendered men. Stereotype after stereotype gets tossed around, and rarely does anyone object. I understand a lot of people here have had bad experiences (at the hands of all kinds of people), but for chrissakes please think before you make broad, sweeping, derogatory comments about an entire gender. I hate it when people stereotype me by my gender--real, perceived, or as a trans person--and so it makes me extremely frustrated to see so many people, who have no doubt been on the receiving end of sexism at least once in their lives, turn right around and perpetuate it without a second thought.

Thank you for reading. I needed to get that off my not-so-flat chest.

I don't think it is as bad as all that, though I can't claim to have read every thread. I usually qualify things with something like "but not everyone is like that", though really that ought to be implied all the time because of basic logic. We know that all people of whatever group aren't all the same. Statistics will tell you that much. I have seen other posts that point this out too in response to some generalization.

Quote from: Wolfsnake on August 28, 2011, 05:45:30 PM
and so it makes me extremely frustrated to see so many people, who have no doubt been on the receiving end of sexism at least once in their lives, turn right around and perpetuate it without a second thought.

I can't really blame people for fighting back against oppression though, and for many complaining online is all they can do. When a person faces hostility her whole life, it is only natural to be quick to return it. Shoot first and ask questions later is often the way the world works. I agree that we ought to work for a higher standard than that, but higher standards don't keep people safe and off the street. Most hostility here I think is a reaction to broader social problems.

Cisgendered men are usually the most intolerant people we mtfs encounter.   It is only human to seek a little indirect payback.   Trying to suppress your feelings is a foolish thing to do, as what is suppressed festers and grows within the psyche.   I could say to myself 'S try and rise above some men's comments, and take the moral high ground.'   That is all fine and dandy if that is your true position but I won't pretend to think/feel or be something I am not just to live up to some culturally conditioned belief.

Quote from: Wolfsnake on August 28, 2011, 05:45:30 PM
Just what the title says.

The more time I spend on this forum, the more creeped out I get by the constant, casual sexism in just about every thread. The majority of it seems to be directed at cisgendered men. Stereotype after stereotype gets tossed around, and rarely does anyone object. I understand a lot of people here have had bad experiences (at the hands of all kinds of people), but for chrissakes please think before you make broad, sweeping, derogatory comments about an entire gender. I hate it when people stereotype me by my gender--real, perceived, or as a trans person--and so it makes me extremely frustrated to see so many people, who have no doubt been on the receiving end of sexism at least once in their lives, turn right around and perpetuate it without a second thought.

Thank you for reading. I needed to get that off my not-so-flat chest.

Love it : ) I'm a hardcore feminist so It's good to see this sort of thing being recognized. I will call it out when i see it but the dialogues can be rather short. I believe when I go on forums like this, I understand that there are alot of people who are depressed and tend to go off on emotional tangents that may not intend to be sexist but are. I consider that and try to be more gentle with how I interpret the sexism here as well as how i respond to it.

A way that I choose to limit my own sexism as a transgendered woman is to be aware that even though i am a transitioning trans woman, I still have male privilege.  I also like to encourage body positivity and self-acceptance during our transitions.

I just went back to my previous responce and changed it to SOME men

But i use to think i was a man and well that was a cisgendered male  and well i was a jerk and was what i hated a lot so when i transitioned and lost my crazed male sex drive i finally saw the other side and well i am much happier that i am not like that person i use to be who was controlled by that drug running thru my body from my testes which made my life a living hell.. i was a letch..i hope you can see why many of us who are or were MTF's do not like cis men because we didn't like ourselves or that person we saw ..

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on August 28, 2011, 07:19:54 PM
i hope you can see why many of us who are or were MTF's do not like cis men because we didn't like ourselves or that person we saw ..

I understand that, believe me. I catch myself being sexist towards women sometimes, because I hate the part of myself that I see in them. But that kind of thinking is not fair. Not every cisgendered man is a sex-crazed jackass. The vast majority of them are pretty much normal, nice people. The only male-bodied people I've met who had serious issues with testosterone after puberty were...guess what, trans women. Same way that I, as a trans man, have a ridiculously bad relationship with my uterus and monthly cycle compared to my cisgendered female friends. So yes, I understand where you're coming from. I just wish we could all stop for a moment and decide that instead of being feminists or masculinists or whatever, we could just cut the crap and be humanists when it comes to gender.

Quote from: Wolfsnake on August 28, 2011, 05:45:30 PM
Just what the title says.

The more time I spend on this forum, the more creeped out I get by the constant, casual sexism in just about every thread. The majority of it seems to be directed at cisgendered men. Stereotype after stereotype gets tossed around, and rarely does anyone object.

Thank you so much for bringing this up. While I haven't personally seen a whole lot of it on this site (not to say it does not exist) I recently left another trans support site because of the overwhelming hatred they had for cisgendered men. It was very disgusting.

People like to create excuses that all men are scum because it seems to be the easy way out and they assume just because they had some bad experiences it has to be like that across the board; which is prejudice stereotyping. To say all men are scum, in my opinion, is just as damning to say all lesbian trans women aren't real trans. Both comments are just as ugly and extremist to me.

I have dated many men and so many of them were very wonderful people. They treated me well and no...they were not ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-s as many of them did not know I was trans until they asked me out.  I mentioned this because those who hate men usually tells me "oh well they like you because you're a chick with a dick."

It's sad to see some trans women stoop to this level of belitting the male gender.

I just ignore them now and feel sorry for them.

Some men I know have had a hard time with my transition. A few are just having a heard time with the name and pronouns.

Some people do tend to lash out against Cisgendered men. How often have they been beaten up in school for trying to be themselves by other males? I know I was.  Just the other week my Brother-in-law told me to "Drop dead you Queer" because he feels embarrassed by me when all I did was ask him how he liked his new job. I dont condemn all men. It just seems like there are more ->-bleeped-<-s in the world these days and it's harder to weed out the good ones because these other ones have caused us a lot of heartache. So we dont bother trying to find them. I dont feeling like every guy who looks at me funny might be a potential predator but I cant help it.

Quote from: Torn1990 on August 28, 2011, 07:13:44 PM
Love it : ) I'm a hardcore feminist so It's good to see this sort of thing being recognized. I will call it out when i see it but the dialogues can be rather short. I believe when I go on forums like this, I understand that there are alot of people who are depressed and tend to go off on emotional tangents that may not intend to be sexist but are. I consider that and try to be more gentle with how I interpret the sexism here as well as how i respond to it.

A way that I choose to limit my own sexism as a transgendered woman is to be aware that even though i am a transitioning trans woman, I still have male privilege.  I also like to encourage body positivity and self-acceptance during our transitions.

I'm a bit of a feminist as well, though I wouldn't call myself 'hardcore'. That's another thing: men can be feminist just as much as women. I am a man, perhaps not a cisgender man, but still a man. Obviously, I don't like the slander towards men, since I am one, but am certainly not a stereotypical pig. At the same time, women aren't the ditzy chatterboxes the social stereotypes are touting either. Sexism goes both ways, and neither is good.
     I call people out on it when someone around me in person says something, but I suppose I haven't delved deeply enough into these forums to see much sexism outside of the emotional tangents.

I now realise I have been a feminist from childhood, just didn't have the word for what I felt. I also deplore double standards as well, so when people apply any 'ism' I am offended.

On the other hand don't forget that there are a fair few people here who are from the UK, NZ and Aus where ironic humour is common.  Americans never seem to understand us and think we are serious, when we are actually showing how silly it is.

Karen.

There is a positively stunning amount of sexism towards women (both cis and trans) as well, at least on the trans women's side of the forum. Honestly, I'm finding that some trans folk are among the most sexist people I've ever encountered. The enforcement of gender roles and stereotyping is frequently... extreme and for me, who was raised by a couple of ex-hippy feminists, rather disturbing. I mostly just stay away from it. I come to these forums for information and to talk about GID, not to get into pointless fights with people whose life and experiences I know nothing about.

There does seem to be a much higher level of Kinder, Küche, Kirche then you would be able to find in the general population since, say, 1900 or so.

Quote from: tekla on August 29, 2011, 01:31:15 AM
There does seem to be a much higher level of Kinder, Küche, Kirche then you would be able to find in the general population since, say, 1900 or so.

Children, Kitchen, Church? I've never heard that saying before..

TBH, I am proud of the effort the guys at work have put in. I know it isn't easy for them after calling me by my male name for 3 years. Some have even surprised me with how much they know about us. My old Manager had an uncle-in-law who transitioned and my wife knows someone else who's father did too. But I work with some real ' Meat and potatoes' kind of guys. Bearded with arms the size of battleships, etc. And coming out to them was really scary. But they've been really supportive. In a way, I kind of feel bad for my wife though because She has to feel like we are surrounding her.

But, I am trying to change my way of thinking. Not all men are out to kill me or beat me up.

I haven't really noticed much of this type of sexism here. Either I'm reading different boards or I'm oblivious (maybe both!).

It was refered to as the 3Ks, (sometimes a 4th K, Kleider (clothing) was added), basically the conservative German cultural version of "A woman's place is barefoot in the kitchen and pregnant."  The Nazi's, no big fans of church shortened it to "Kinder and Küche." But the same deal really.

That contrasts with the 3Ks for men which were Kaiser, Krieg, Kanonen, (emperor, war, cannons).

I'm cis-male, maybe I'm not completely typical, but I'm certainly someone who has the benefit of male privilege in this society.

I've not noticed too much sexism directed at cis-males.  Of course I don't read everything here, so I'm probably missing things, but the general attitudes here I've felt towards me was not particularly sexist.

Yes, some people make universal statements about groups of people - and cis-men are one group stereotyped here.  But I've also seen MTFs and FTMs stereotyped, intersexed people stereotyped, spouses stereotyped, etc, here.  And I probably see way more *here* directed at subgroups of the gender community than towards cis-men.  So with that in mind, the occasional stereotype about cis-males doesn't particularly bother me (although I may speak up!).  The idea of stereotypes on the other hand *does* bother me, whether directed at me or someone else.

Quote from: Keaira on August 29, 2011, 02:25:02 AM
Children, Kitchen, Church? I've never heard that saying before..

It's an expression that's pretty well gone out of use.

It's an expression that's pretty well gone out of use.

In mainstream Western society, it's alive and well on the fringe here, and in several non-western societies.

I totally agree. If you want to be accepted you need to accept everybody else but I can understand why people might want to put a harsh comment about a cisgendered person, particulary males. I find that women are quite open to most things these days but guys still have that need to be masculine and so MTF's to them are quite threatening and even if they are ok with them they wouldnt openly admit that as they think it would effect the way other males view them. Even the most open minded cismale will occasionally act like a jackass to defend their masculinity so I can see why a MTF would have a lot of anger towards guys.  I think its ok to voice your frustration and anger just as long as it doesnt get too personal or to the point where you are indeed being sexist and bullying another for something they cant control.

Personally, I think that no matter how much we discuss the fact that sexism is wrong and that we shouldn't generalize, there will always be at least one person who won't listen or who just needs to express themselves. It doesn't matter that certain people are racist, that others are sexist, or that still others stereotype like you wouldn't believe. It's going to happen whether we want it or not (although I don't know why we would want it to happen). The best we can do is educate both ourselves and others about WHY doing these things is bad and let them make decisions on their own.

IMO. :)

I sure I've been guilty of it...sexism.  I don't like being a man and I'm probably overly critical of them.  I do lump the gender into a group.  I do hold females in general in a much higher regard than males in general.  I do know there are terribly nasty women and really good men.  I will try to keep that in mind in the future.

Wow!
REALLY? Maybe I'm also badly humour challenged, but I am stunned to read so much steamed up posting about sexism at Susan's!?!

We have moderate moderators and I for one am just fine with that.

What I am hearing seems a stronger drive to more detailed censorship --- and I do not like it. Not a bit.

People have emotions and some times just need to 'spit it out'. If it's too much, our moderators have done a good job this far, in my humble opinion. I have been moderated and it just fine by me.

Let me say thank you to them.

I'm so not, on this hyper sensitive page. Often folks, include me, would say something and are simply not aware of SOME sensitive soul out there with his/her or own agenda.
...
Axelle

Meh... Was on this forum a few years ago and have to say I'm pleasantly surprised about how it has changed for the better in regards to sexism and arguments about transitioning/non transitioning and trans/not trans but end gender, binary extremism and so on.

If sexism exists it's inexcusable and sorry to say this but IMO doubly inexcusable in the case of people who have transitioned. We feel or have felt the pain of prejudice so it would be beyond despicable to be guilty of it ourselves. I admit I'm not much attracted to men and they have given me a horrible time in life but they're not all b*stards despite this. People are people at the the end of the day, men, women or whatever we all have our faults. Live and live and be there for each other is all we can aspire to do.

So happy this forum has moved on, felt really isolated politically and gender wise here in the old days.

I would not encourage mods to censor sexism, I just think we should all be aware of sexism and continue to have dialogues about it.

Honestly, there are real stereotypes in the world, and statistics to back them up. That doesn't mean discrimination or rude behavior should take place, but if someone wants to tell a joke or make a generalization in sake of conversation, this is a free country. However, I surprise myself so often at how multi-layered I see men and women as being. I've never seen men as all brawny and brass, and I've never seen women as all cute and petite, though the most comedic and unreal stereotypes truly do exist in both sexes, by a large amount. Really though, there's so many sub-genres of people, it's exactly like music, film, or art. And every one of those people deserves to be free from standard; no one person has to do something someone else does unless it is the simple act of following the law, which includes defamation laws, harassment laws, and discrimination laws.

I believe I'm very good at not being discriminatory though, unless it comes to supernatural beliefs, which aren't protected by law in a court, criminal, and legal system, as opposed to science, evidence, and fact, which is. I will bash religious beliefs in a heartbeat, because, after years upon years of research and just meeting thousands upon thousands of people, I myself haven't found one religious person who doesn't use a bias toward others, somewhere down the line, to feel more powerful about themselves. There's lots of science fanatics who do the same thing and would cling to the DSM and cling to every discriminatory line in it, but at the same time, real science fanatics track down the studies that contradict what is obviously discriminatory and not well studied. A truly non-discriminatory person is one who tries to justify every single person's needs and wants out there, the needs of every person who deserves equal rights because they follow the law.

For instance, I don't have government assistance for my transition, both hormonally, physically, and mentally, because there are documents that discriminate against my needs (or elsewise the process of getting on government assistance is complex to the point of complete lunacy), and I find it shocking just how many people on this forum want to keep it that way.

Stereotyping isn't xyz-ism. It's merely observing characteristics regarding behaviour in certain human sub-categories and realising a trend. The sad fact is humans are easy to stereotype. We shouldn't be, because we're suppose to have our own brains and act upon our own rational thinking as opposed to instincts like animals. But it's really not always the case. I see women, men, punks, metalheads, whatever you feel like naming with remarkably similar trends in behaviour. Do I think I'm wrong for noting these? Hell no, in fact, I feel proud for noticing them - it means I'm not an amnesiac and can draw links between objects.

The problem lies in the group being sterotyped. Don't like being stereotyped? Don't act the part. I love it when a woman knows how to fix a car, or a man knows how to cook. But deviations like these can be rare. Feminists are always putting the blame on the wrong thing - why is there a lack of women in the trade? Feminist answer: because it's harder for them to get employed. Logical answer: Because they simply aren't interested. Trade employers get government grants, incentives to employ female apprentices, yet there are still so few. You would have to resort to some serious brainwashing to force a certain group to act how you want. Why do people act a stereotype? Partly genetics, partly upbringing. But no one has a right to tell others how to bring up their kids and even that can't guarentee success in them being harder to stereotype, so the best you can do is accept these trends exist and move on; don't shoot the messenger who's only crime was to have eyes, ears and a brain.

rational thinking as opposed to instincts like animals.... with remarkably similar trends in behaviour.  If your working your way though a problem in accordance with the principles of logic or reason you should get the same answer everybody else does.  Rational thinking should produce the same results in most people.