Susan's Place Transgender Resources

If our physical self was immortal, would we ever have had the need to create religion?  To take that one step further, if we were invincible, would we need religion or faith at all?

So much of what I've heard from the "faithful" speaks of life everlasting.  The promise is always there.  I've often wondered if that belief wasn't there - if when this life on earth ended, that was the end of their life, physically and spiritually - would their faith be as important to them?

My faith would still be just as important.  Immortality is something I don't understand.

I imagine religion would still exist, though it may take different forms. Religion is also good for social cohesion, and to explore concepts about the purpose of life as well as its end.

What would be interesting is whether we would be more or less callous if we were immortal, more I imagine. I bet there would be more war because of less space, and that war would be brutal - enemies captured and eternally starved/tortured. Without death I imagine the world would be horrendous in most every way - we might have  really needed religion then to tame and civilise.

We would be trying to find a way for god to make us mortal. Too much life is too much of a good thing.

Sounds like  the movie "Groundhog Day" to me.  If we were immortal would there be the same desire to breed?  People might put it off for a Century or so, and then die in an accident.  Maybe we would go extinct as a result? I assume we are talking about immortality as regards disease and old age here, effectively eternal youth. 

On the other hand if we just kept breeding, then kept getting older forever, I think we would end up with a religion that sanctioned human sacrifice of the senile  to make room for the young.

Karen.

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 30, 2011, 01:48:28 PM
I bet there would be more war because of less space, and that war would be brutal - enemies captured and eternally starved/tortured.

But if you couldn't kill or even hurt your enemy, why bother to put in all that effort and expense?  One of the determining factors in who wins a war is which side has the most personnel losses, either by death or injury.  Two warring armies where no one dies will go on forever.  That would get pretty old.

Quote from: Lisbeth on August 31, 2011, 01:08:24 AM
We would be trying to find a way for god to make us mortal. Too much life is too much of a good thing.

But most of us want immortality in a spiritual world.  Will we get too much of a good thing there too?

Quote from: justmeinoz on August 31, 2011, 02:30:59 AM
I assume we are talking about immortality as regards disease and old age here, effectively eternal youth. 

For this thread I'll define immortality as aging ending at physical maturity.  You are immune to disease, starvation, physical harm, and anything else that could maim, impair or kill a human. 

As far as population explosion, let's say we have the ability to move to other places or dimensions.  This is kinda necessary for this mental exercise because the earth would be hard to move around in if humans never died.

All that aside, the question is if we weren't mortal, would we still need a faith in a higher power?  Based on what I've heard and read, an awful lot of people with strong faith do things here to get a better deal in the afterlife.

Well if we had "eternal physical maturity", and were invulnerable we would be gods, so I guess everyone would worship themselves.
There wouldn't be any great concern over the deep eternal questions asked by religions now, because we would be around long enough for somebody to have figured out the answer and told everyone else.
I think life would get very boring in a relatively short time. Actually it would be a fair approximation of Hell!

Karen.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 31, 2011, 12:14:52 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on August 31, 2011, 01:08:24 AM
We would be trying to find a way for god to make us mortal. Too much life is too much of a good thing.

But most of us want immortality in a spiritual world.  Will we get too much of a good thing there too?

You've got the idea.

Quote from: justmeinoz on September 01, 2011, 07:51:03 AM
Well if we had "eternal physical maturity", and were invulnerable we would be gods, so I guess everyone would worship themselves.

There you go.

That's the two sides of the question. Only god(s) is(are) eternal. For us to eternal and not gods is a complete contradiction. Time-space is four dimensional. To be eternal without being omnipresent makes no sense. A snake infinite in one direction only? Sounds pretty uncomfortable to me. Being eternal and not being all powerful and all present sounds like hell. Just ask the Q from Star Trek.

And if you pay attention to the story in Genesis, the essence of Adam and Eve's sin was wanting to be like god. That's what wanting to be immortal is, wanting to be like god.

If we were immortal, we could just go ask Jesus himself what he meant by this or that.  We wouldn't need priests, ministers or any other religious official to interpret what someone wrote about Jesus a couple thousand years ago.

If we were immortal, we could ask the eye witnesses of ancient disasters exactly what happened and if maybe the explanation written at the time might be a little off, considering all that we've learned about things like locusts, meteorites, tsunamis and such.  Maybe they wouldn't be saying it was God's wrath.

If we were immortal, Ask Adam & Eve, "Exactly what did happen way back and was there really a talking snake?"

And all this knowledge would eliminate the need for faith, at least in all things earthly.

I don't think immortality would eliminate our desire to know our creator(s), although it would certainly change our perception of the world.

Though immortality wouldn't necessarily mean there would be no death. You would still have accidents, murder, etc.

My religious faith/belief is not about afterlife but about the here and now. About how loving others improves my life today. I know a lot of Christian people seem to focus on the whole everlasting life thing but that has nothing to do with why I am a Christian. I honestly think people looking to religion as a way to "live forever" are missing the whole point but if it makes them love their neighbor just a bit more, I'm not going to argue with them about it.

So to answer your question, I would have my same faith/belief even if we never died.

Perhaps...

I posit that if we were truely immortal we would seek out the one thing denied us:


Death.

Kia Ora,

::) But if we were truly immortal we would have no concept of "death"...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Lily on September 01, 2011, 09:03:36 PM
I don't think immortality would eliminate our desire to know our creator(s), although it would certainly change our perception of the world.

Though immortality wouldn't necessarily mean there would be no death. You would still have accidents, murder, etc.

Kia Ora Lily,

::) Immortal=Not subjected to "death" !

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 30, 2011, 01:19:19 PM
If our physical self was immortal, would we ever have had the need to create religion?  To take that one step further, if we were invincible, would we need religion or faith at all?

So much of what I've heard from the "faithful" speaks of life everlasting.  The promise is always there.  I've often wondered if that belief wasn't there - if when this life on earth ended, that was the end of their life, physically and spiritually - would their faith be as important to them?

Kia Ora Julia,

::) Interesting topic....Well from what I gather.........

::) If we were immortal/invincible, life would be empty-free of all desires-we would neither want nor need anything including a belief in a god... However if such a belief did happen to arise, it would differ greatly from the belief many now have of a god/creator...

One should ask themselves why would there even be such a thing as "faith"[in the religious sense] ?
To have "faith" in what and what for ?

::) But as usual I could be wrong...

Metta Zenda :)

A more interesting question would be if we were immortal, or our ancestors were also immortal, why would we want to reproduce?

Would there really be any need to have children?  Why have a next generation?

Quote from: Zenda on September 01, 2011, 11:24:40 PMIf we were immortal/invincible, life would be empty-free of all desires-we would neither want nor need anything including a belief in a god... However if such a belief did happen to arise, it would differ greatly from the belief many now have of a god/creator...

Well, we have to suspend our present beliefs about a higher power, life, death, infinity and so on, in this mental exercise.  Then we would have to imagine we were never taught those things that are related to our mortality.  The fact everything on this earth dies creates a reality very different than if some of the species here were immune to dying.  And I'm not thinking a "Death Becomes Her" type of immortality. 

So yeah, I guess we'd become god-like, but would we even have a word for what we now think of as god?  I suppose we would never need a higher power because our own immortality would preclude that.

Mormons believe something like the men will have 100 wives in the next life and there's some correlation between achieving that and fighting against acceptance of homosexuality.  Therefore they vehemently fight any and all things that would make being gay okay.

Some Muslims believe there's 30 virgins (or something like that) waiting for them in the afterlife, so what's the big deal about blowing yourself up and killing your enemy right along with you?

Neither belief can be proven and both are therefore real only through faith.  Our belief in the afterlife causes us to do a lot of things we'd never do if we were immortal because, if we were immortal, the concept of the afterlife wouldn't exist.  There would be no reason for it.

Quote from: cynthialee on September 01, 2011, 10:13:53 PM
Perhaps...

I posit that if we were truely immortal we would seek out the one thing denied us:

Death.

That's what I've been saying.

Quote from: Zenda on September 01, 2011, 10:41:57 PM
Kia Ora,

::) But if we were truly immortal we would have no concept of "death"...

Metta Zenda :)

Perhaps not by that word, but we would long for an end to the endlessness of life.

Quote from: Lisbeth on September 02, 2011, 12:26:33 AM

Quote from: cynthialee on Today at 03:13:53 pm
Perhaps...

I posit that if we were truely immortal we would seek out the one thing denied us:

Death.

That's what I've been saying.

Quote from: Zenda on Today at 03:41:57 pm
Kia Ora,

But if we were truly immortal we would have no concept of "death"...

Metta Zenda
Perhaps not by that word, but we would long for an end to the endlessness of life.

Kia Ora Lisbeth,

::) But why would we ?

And how could there ever be a concept of "death" if we never die ?

What example would there be for an immortal to go by ?

An immortal/invincible would have no worldly needs or desires...

There would be no concept of "endlessness" life... For an immortal "life" just "is"...

Plus we would all be "asexual' and breeding [ should the need arise-possibly to colonise other galaxies ] would be by parthenogenetic means...

::) I happen to be asexual and I'm working on becoming immortal-fingers crossed XX XX  ;) :D ;D

Metta Zenda :)

I still think Immortals would want to have sex. 

If you ever saw "My Stepmother Is An Alien" with Kim Bassinger, there's a scene where her "immortals" are up in the clouds speaking to her and one sneezes.  Then he remarks about how interesting that experience was.  I'd think Immortals would seek out all sorts of experiences or we'd get very bored.

On a tangent to this, the immortal concept would allow for first person answers to a whole lot more than religion.  How were the Pyramids of Egypt built?  Why are the pyramids of the Aztecs so similar? Where did Modern Man come from and did they mate with the Neanderthals?  And a whole bunch of other stuff.

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 02, 2011, 12:58:54 AM
I still think Immortals would want to have sex. 

If you ever saw "My Stepmother Is An Alien" with Kim Bassinger, there's a scene where her "immortals" are up in the clouds speaking to her and one sneezes.  Then he remarks about how interesting that experience was.  I'd think Immortals would seek out all sorts of experiences or we'd get very bored.

On a tangent to this, the immortal concept would allow for first person answers to a whole lot more than religion.  How were the Pyramids of Egypt built?  Why are the pyramids of the Aztecs so similar? Where did Modern Man come from and did they mate with the Neanderthals?  And a whole bunch of other stuff.

Kia Ora Julia,

::) Perhaps there would be no need for "thought"...Plus boredom is what only mortals feel... ;) :D ;D

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 02, 2011, 12:58:54 AM


On a tangent to this, the immortal concept would allow for first person answers to a whole lot more than religion.  How were the Pyramids of Egypt built?  Why are the pyramids of the Aztecs so similar? Where did Modern Man come from and did they mate with the Neanderthals?  And a whole bunch of other stuff.

Kia Ora Julia,

::) As an immortal   "I am the past...I am the present...I am the future... I am "now" and "now" has always been...There never "was" only "is" !"...

::) If that makes sense  :D ;)

Metta Zenda :)

the question posited immortality for humanity, not the animals...so yes we would have the concept of death.

Further definition: In this Immortal World, one is born into this world we know as Earth, just as humans are today.  The only difference being we never die.  But for population explosion reasons, let's say we have the option to move - to another planet, another dimension, whatever.  But we can still come back here and we can still easily communicate with others on Earth.  Internet of the Cosmos?  Sure.  Why not.

Information then would be gained more first person than through word of mouth or ancient writings, something we have no way of verifying factually now.

In the realm of religion and faith, any and all questions we may have about the holy books - "Did Moses really part the Red Sea?"  "Was the Qur'an really revealed to the Prophet, Muhammed, or did something else really happen?"  "Did God really give the Ten Commandments and the Torah to Israel, or was there some stretching of the truth there?"  "Excuse me, Jesus, with all you said, did you really never write a thing?" can be answered first person.  Then it's up to us to decide how much we want to believe.  At least we wouldn't have to hear (like I did), "Don't question your faith."

In this respect, in the being able to ask eye witnesses what actually happened that fateful day, we could better answer the questions that have been asked for many a millenia.

Not being able to get scientific proof to the answers I sought, and simply being told, "Just have faith", is why I began to lose faith in the Catholic teachings.  And that was long before the priest crisis.  My mind could not accept someone telling me what to believe without some proof.  It's like a politician telling me the bill he is presenting that will reduce taxes for the rich will result in job creation.  "My dear voter, you just need to have faith in me."  You'll never hear me say, "Oh.  Okay," as I walk away contentedly.

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 02, 2011, 09:28:23 AM
Not being able to get scientific proof to the answers I sought, and simply being told, "Just have faith", is why I began to lose faith in the Catholic teachings.  And that was long before the priest crisis.  My mind could not accept someone telling me what to believe without some proof.  It's like a politician telling me the bill he is presenting that will reduce taxes for the rich will result in job creation.  "My dear voter, you just need to have faith in me."  You'll never hear me say, "Oh.  Okay," as I walk away contentedly.

Is there scientific proof Love exists? Since there isn't, I guess it isn't real either....

100 years ago science didn't know many of the things that are now seen as basic knowledge. Did that mean they didn't exist 100 years ago because there wasn't scientific proof of it back then?

My faith is strong because I don't take religious writing literally, I look for the overall message. "Did Moses really part the Red Sea?" is a question that wouldn't change my faith/beliefs if it actually happened or not. I actually believe the old testament is the example of how NOT to worship God. Of what is NOT important. If all that stuff was right, God would have had no reason to send Jesus here. His message was "Look you guys, LOVE EACH OTHER" was all he was trying to tell us.

And it seems many people think religion is mainly to deal with -afterlife- issues. As I said in my last post, I think that is missing the whole point God is trying to make us understand. I have no concern about things I have zero control over and no way I could ever find an answer to, like what happens when I die. What I do care about is what my life is like while I'm alive and THAT is why I am a religious person. It wouldn't change my beliefs nor would I consider myself a God if death wasn't part of my existence.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 30, 2011, 01:19:19 PM
If our physical self was immortal, would we ever have had the need to create religion?  To take that one step further, if we were invincible, would we need religion or faith at all?

So much of what I've heard from the "faithful" speaks of life everlasting.  The promise is always there.  I've often wondered if that belief wasn't there - if when this life on earth ended, that was the end of their life, physically and spiritually - would their faith be as important to them?

Kia Ora,

::) The insistence by some, that immortals "must" have a concept of death because other animals die, got me thinking...

::) Because of the infinite possibilities that would relate to being "immortal", it's also "possible" immortals would just view death in other animals as "The long sleep"  [ dreamtime extended indefinitely so to speak] ...

During which time to add some "meaning" to what possibly could be a somewhat mundane immortal life, [just for the "sake" of it so to speak], they might[another possibility] also start to attribute unexplained wholesome and unwholesome experiences in their lives to things these "creatures of the dreamtime" had made happen...[Not too different to what some of us mere mortals have a habit of doing]

And their fascination with this unexplained natural phenomena of death in animals could also lead some "bored" immortals to deem them "sacred" creatures of the dreamtime [The beginning of a "religious" following of a sort ] ...

By this time, because of the animal's ability to both live and die-[entering dreamtime permanently so to speak] and the immortal's  lack of ability to explain the unexplained[wholesome and unwholesome experiences] they might[yet another possibility] be inclined to revere the animal both in its life and death...Hence the practice of "worshiping" begins to evolve...

::) This I should add is about the evolution of "religion" not necessarily the creator-god centred kind....

::) As usual I could be wrong, but.... It would take a bloody immortal to prove this theory [of the "unnatural" world of immortality and how religion "might" have evolved], wrong... ;) :D ;D

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 01, 2011, 04:03:08 PM
If we were immortal, we could just go ask Jesus himself what he meant by this or that.  We wouldn't need priests, ministers or any other religious official to interpret what someone wrote about Jesus a couple thousand years ago.

If we were immortal, we could ask the eye witnesses of ancient disasters exactly what happened and if maybe the explanation written at the time might be a little off, considering all that we've learned about things like locusts, meteorites, tsunamis and such.  Maybe they wouldn't be saying it was God's wrath.

If we were immortal, Ask Adam & Eve, "Exactly what did happen way back and was there really a talking snake?"

Ahah! Caught in your own trap, Julie.  Some might assume that these mystical figures actually existed. We grew up with them in our bedtime stories. But these characters are only real in the oral traditions. In the case of the Old Testament, these oral traditions grew for centuries before they were ever written down. In the story of Jesus, it was 50 to 60 years.  Can you imagine... actually, you don't have to imagine... look at what has happened to our modern day story of a crashed nuclear weapons test detector balloon in Roswell, NM, just 60 years ago.  And we are supposed to be advanced? We aren't that far removed from the Roswell story that we can't make sense of it, yet believers in aliens is at an all time high.

So, what we are really dealing with here are a number of questions. Would mysticism still exist? Sure. Would people still have faith in a supreme being? Yes.  Would the crazies be out to seize control of our society? Yes. We must remember that until very recently in human history, religion was the means to control and govern a people. That's why King Josiah had the "books of Moses" written in the first place, from the archeological evidence.  King Hezikiah came along later and had them rewritten to suit his purposes in governance.

Imortality, by itself, does not garantee enlightenment.  Jeez, this topic is so close to the novel I'm writing, it's scary. Education is our best hope for enlightenment.  We must recognize that faith and religion can be two separate and distinct things. Faith is personal belief. Religion is a governance tool.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on September 02, 2011, 06:19:32 PM
We must recognize that faith and religion can be two separate and distinct things. Faith is personal belief. Religion is a governance tool.

Cindi

I really like this.. And to expand on this, faith can be simply how I see myself as a human being and how I should live/treat others. It doesn't have to include believing in Jonah and the whale or the burning bush etc etc.. Nor does it have to include some afterlife story...

Quote from: Cindi Jones on September 02, 2011, 06:19:32 PM
Ahah! Caught in your own trap, Julie.  Some might assume that these mystical figures actually existed. We grew up with them in our bedtime stories. But these characters are only real in the oral traditions. In the case of the Old Testament, these oral traditions grew for centuries before they were ever written down. In the story of Jesus, it was 50 to 60 years.  Can you imagine... actually, you don't have to imagine... look at what has happened to our modern day story of a crashed nuclear weapons test detector balloon in Roswell, NM, just 60 years ago.

And Ahah! back at ya Cindi...  The man who found the remnants of whatever it was said the samples the government showed the public were not what he found.  So while the government is saying they walked on water, the eye witness says "no you didn't".

But your pointing out the fact people tend to create history when it's been stored in the mind is exactly why the whole "You need to have faith" thing never worked for me.  That, and the fact they could never answer my reply, "Why?" to my satisfaction.  Just like the government was never able to answer why the eye witnesses at the Roswell incident had different stories than what the government version stated as fact.

Quote from: Stephe on September 02, 2011, 03:09:58 PM
Is there scientific proof Love exists? Since there isn't, I guess it isn't real either....

100 years ago science didn't know many of the things that are now seen as basic knowledge. Did that mean they didn't exist 100 years ago because there wasn't scientific proof of it back then?

But we're not talking about 100 years ago.  We're talking about now and all the science that comes with it.

As far as love existing, whatever one chooses to call it, I do know there's an emotional attachment humans form with certain other humans they don't form with all.  It has been recorded to such a point that proof it exists was established a very long time ago.