Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Someone commented on Chaz Bono's "It Gets Better" video saying:
"I have cancer. My chances of surviving depend on finding a GYN/ONC whose specialty is surgery for "female" cancers. Only 1000 of these surgeons in the US means only 30% of women get the right surgery. I'm angry watching a surgeon remove healthy breasts and choosing to cater to people like Chaz who won't die if they have to live with breasts while women with cancer will die. I realize people may kill themselves who can't get sex changes but that's their choice. Dying of cancer isn't a choice."

And I said:
"You have cancer.
Sorry to hear that. But that related to transsexualism how?? You should get over yourself."

Do you think I was a bit too blunt? I mean c'mon though, this person is selfish as hell to think just because she's dying of breast cancer that a man should be forced to keep his breasts.

That's not nearly as bad as what I would have said.

cancer or not I find it extremly rude of her,

that would be for me like saying if your having a serious sickness then thats the only thing we cant help people with and everyone ells who wont die of it just has to suffer untill we can prove they actually can die.
----
and to say there the own choice, whos choice is it in the end,
I know kiling yourself is yourself a desision but when I where trying suicide it wasnt because I wanted to kill myself but because I felt a presure from people outside not to fit in there world, so who is the blame when we come to an end..

beside, the thing about you cant die of it, I wont agree neither would I disagree..
I dont think I am the only ftm who have health problems with lungs and my bag,
I have been binding since I where young, and I have been awared of the posibilatys that it would kill me because my lungs got very hurt and still are pretty weak compared to my young age and so on.

I don't see that as cruel at all. Blunt, sure, but there's nothing wrong with that.

Also, I wasn't aware oncologists were flocking to the oh-so-booming business of FTM chest surgery.
Especially considering it's usually done by plastic surgeons (from what I know)  ::)

The part where you said 'you should get over yourself', sounds a little harsh considering she's got cancer and we all know cancer is not totally beatable in all cases and she's probably venting from the fear she's feeling about possibly dying.  Prejudice comes from fear.  I like how you questioned her about how the two (her cancer and Chaz) are related because she might as well yell at all the people getting knee replacements and face lifts.

Quote from: Renard on September 14, 2011, 02:00:28 PM

Also, I wasn't aware oncologists were flocking to the oh-so-booming business of FTM chest surgery.
Especially considering it's usually done by plastic surgeons (from what I know)  ::)

Yeah, that's why aside from just being selfish and wanting to blame someone for her situation, her trans hate just doesn't make sense.  I replied to her with the bit about plastic surgeons doing FTM mastectomies. 

And Scarlet, I don't think your reply to her was cruel, she was being more than a little ridiculous.  Spreading around more bad feelings when you feel like ->-bleeped-<- surely won't help you or anyone else, and while cancer is awful, it isn't particularly fun to be transgender either.  I refuse to get into who has it worse, but while I personally constantly remind myself to be grateful to not have crippling dysphoria or a life-threatening disease, I know a lot of trans people who have suffered horribly for many years.   You can be sick and still have a positive attitude, or you can be self-pitying and try get some company for your misery.  Research shows that the former may help you beat cancer or serious illness, and at the least, the latter surely won't win friends or sympathy.

I agree with the general consensus that it wasn't a bad response.  I can understand the person's frustration because cancer is... well... cancer.  What can you say about it?  But their argument is as ridiculous as being angry with a cardio surgeon for not taking up oncology as their specialty.  They went to med school, they trained to be a surgeon, it's a wasted resource, right?

Basically, the person had the right tone, the right emotions for her situation, but the wrong outlet.

I don't think you were being crule. She had it coming. Alot of people in my family dies of cancer. Just buried an uncle a few months ago. Have an aunt who has only a few months left. And another aunt who's on radiation and what not and is doing ok. Being trans is not a choice any more than getting cancer is. Actually some of your choices can give you cancer. My uncle thinks some of the jobs he did put him at a higher risk. He used to get rid of anything no questions asked. Some companies would give him hazardous stuff. He also mentioned asbestos removal. Plus he was a smoker.


Having 1000 surgeons to pick from sounds like a fortunate thing to me. Is there a country with more? Sounds like 70% of those women should have researched their choice of doctor more. She should be happy she has choice of who to see and that she has access to a higher standard of health care that the majority of women in the world don't even get.

I would have gone with "then hurry up and die already, your cancer is bumming out my lifestyle", but I'll give you a B+.

thats kind of mean. but she is really wrong trans guys can get breast cancer too, if their not breasts arent removed. transsexualism and depression are not a choice, so suicide not really a choice.

Less mean that what the OP wrote, at least I didn't try to cover it up by drizzling fake sympathy all over it.  And if you don't think that what the OP wrote was mean, then OK, let's test drive it ...   depression are not a choice, so suicide not really a choice  - Oh get over yourself!  Now is it mean?

I don't perceive your answer as cruel.
I do perceive her comments as stupid.

Maybe those of us who have to pay out of pocket for everything should be mad at cancer patients who have insurance coverage.
No, that would also be stupid.

I think it may have been a bit rude, but honestly, she brought it upon herself.

After all, she did say it was their choice if they killed themselves. I don't know about anyone else, but when I was on the verge of suicide it wasn't like a choice. My mind was so messed up from being depressed that I couldn't think straight.

Hey, if you're not going to cut slack for someone with cancer who is looking at a terminal situation, if you think it's somehow OK to tell someone in that situation to 'get over themselves', then wow.  I mean I wouldn't even go that far, as I was trying to illustrate above.

Yea, your response was probably just as screwed up as hers.

I agree with Nygeel and Tekla

You are not going to stop someone being mean and thoughtless by being mean and thoughtless to them.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  One bird in hand is better than two in the bush.  A thousand other cliché's.

Now you've just given her ammunition to go off and talk about how heartless trans people are.  Right now we need better PR than that.  Although I could point out that many people Do think cancer is a choice.  You choose to eat all those foods with corn syrup, right?  You choose to not breastfeed your baby.  You choose to inhale carcinogens into your lungs. 

I could also point out that her surgery will most likely be covered by insurance.  Whereas with trans people in this country, it is not.  However putting people on the defensive usually doesn't work out well.   

How would I have responded?  "I'm very sorry to hear about your struggles with cancer.  I can't even imagine what it must be like in your shoes.  I'm transgender and I have my own difficult road.   I'm not Chaz but I can tell you the question of surgery is always a hard decision.  No one takes it lightly.  It is a step people make because it is what they need to do.  I wish you the best and a speedy recovery." 

The "get over yourself" was pretty messed up..

BUT, her relating being trans to having breast cancer was completely <expletive deleted by moderator>. That's like saying we shouldn't eat because people are starving in other countries

I agree with what the person said above me as to what I would have said ^^^

Well she replied to my comment:

@Bahzi23 - It will only be a matter of time before we all have to pay for this type of surgery because people like Chaz will fight for insurance coverage. We'll all have to pay for this type of unnecessary surgery. As I stated before, Chaz Bono can get through life with tits. My cancer is now considered cured because my Oncologist is one of the best and he made the selfless decision to try to save women from dying from female cancers instead of choosing a frivolous career lobbing off breasts.

I can't figure out how to reply because my original comment nor her reply are showing up for me on the Youtube comment page, this was just in my messages.  It doesn't matter though, she's just shouting from a soap box.   Why even argue?  She's clearly not interested in any viewpoint but her own, and me pointing out that most surgeons who do top surgery had their plates full with boob jobs for cis-women and tummy tucks without our business wouldn't make a difference.   ALL NON ONCOLOGY SURGEONS ARE SELFISH GAIZ!!111   That sort of obnoxious feminist used to really bother me, but I've come across so many that I can barely manage indignance anymore.   Argue with them and you're vindicating them.   Her latest comment is just bashing Chaz for his weight, so I really don't care what else she has to say.   

Quote"I'm angry watching a surgeon remove healthy breasts and choosing to cater to people like Chaz who won't die if they have to live with breasts while women with cancer will die. I realize people may kill themselves who can't get sex changes but that's their choice. Dying of cancer isn't a choice."

I disagree with this assessment.  Emotional damage is just as real as physical damage.  If the source of that damage is out of your control (which GID seems to be) then someone driven to suicide because of body dysphoria is not entirely different from someone about to die of cancer.

It's like I said before, the argument of "choice" is a very stupid argument.  You have a choice to die, a choice to live out your lifetime in a damned hell where you are miserable all of the time, or a choice to transition.  It would be like a criminal holding a gun to your head and instructing you to give him your cash.  You have to choice to hand over the cash, or get shot in the head.  Anyone with an ounce of understanding knows that there is no good choice in this scenario, and the ONLY solution is to get out of the predicament in the first place.  GID is the same way.

If I didn't have a way to become more feminine, I would probably already be dead.  It's not that I would have made a choice to die.  Rather, I would have made a choice not to continue a living hell that made me hate life every single day.  That is the "choice" which this woman is so callously dismissing.

i'm sorry if I sound very hard on this but I dont see people even should be friendly to her.

I knew way to many of these kind of people who feel its okay to let other down because there felling down themself, and NO its not, I understand if the person has something to do with it but to make it clear
Transgender and cancer dosent have anything to do with each other.
yeah ftm makes surgery, but so do people having there breast lager, smaller or so on, is there also to blame for having cancer? no, no one is to blame for getting cancer, its not really something you deside, neither is being trans.

I am not sure if people would consider being friendly to her if she didnt had cancer,

sure she can be frustated but litterally teling people that "its just there own fault they die"
is over my words,
if I die or any other transgender then it just themself to blame. I cant even show the smallest respect for a person saying that no matter how horrible the persons situation is, if people think I can just go and die then they can go and die as well.

when thats said I once got a very dear friend who where trans, he was scared of comming out and when he did his whole famely didnt want to see him again, and his boyfriend wanted to devorse,
the last thing I heard from him where he got on the hospital for cancer, and I asume he died cause I never got to hear anything more from him.

the person where living under a horrible situation in so many ways, and still I always remind the person as a loving person,
so you see its posible to be friendly even if your down,

It's just the Internet. You don't even know if she has cancer or not. So many people make ->-bleeped-<- up online because they're messed up.

Either way, if she is going to get mad at gender reassignment surgeries because she somehow thinks it takes up surgeons time who could be curing cancer then she should at least be fair and get mad at ANYone who has any kind of surgery that isn't related to anything 'life threatening' ie. wisdom teeth removed, corrective eye surgery, nose jobs, blaw blaw blaw and what about even breast reduction for those with back problems? I don't get her point?

Da Monkey makes some good points. She might be lying. Even if she really does have cancer, she is using it to add more weight to her narrow minded view. Cancer stinks, but it didn't make her say that stuff. She just doesn't like what Chaz is doing.

QuoteEmotional damage is just as real as physical damage.

I have read quite a few articles that support this. Based on personal experience, it would not surprise me if this woman was an emotional abuser masquerading as some sort of poor victim.

Quote from: Kentrie on September 14, 2011, 01:54:18 PM
That's not nearly as bad as what I would have said.

This.

OMG.

Sure, I can understand where she's coming from. But in complete honesty that's very selfish of her. I'm sure she knows that many of us have to move or travel pretty huge distances to be able to access those doctors, just like she might need to.
It's really annoying to me that people will take things like this to the extreme, but also I think that in the right circumstances she could be right.

Sure, we're being "selfish" by wanting the same surgeries that she needs to live, but don't we need them to live too? There are so many trans people out there killing themselves over this issue that it's rediculous. But people with breast cancer die too. Not all of them, but some.

People die whether they want to or not. It would suck to be the one to die, but that's how life works. If we can do something about it and we want to use our time and hard-earned money to have the surgery, then how is that different from what she wants? We all live, we all have to work, and we all have the choice to do what we want to with our money.

She should shut up about it and get her butt to work so she can pay for the things she needs, just like we have to. Equality? No. Life.

I know my opinions may be harsh, but that's why it's my opinion. :)

I taught for years at a super huge state university, one with a Division I sports program in all it's testosterone and money soaked glory.  You think the jocks you know in HS are self-centered, entitled little ego trips?  Wait till they are winning championships and talking million dollar signing bonuses.  I've spend about half my life in Iowa (the other half in California), and there ain't a whole lot to do in Iowa.  Matter of fact, nothing.  But, every four years the political circus comes to the state, and over the years I worked for a number of failed campaigns (Jerry Brown - twice, Jesse Jackson, John Anderson - I gave the Pubs a shot, yeesh -  Bill Bradley, and Bruce Babbit), and when I wasn't doing stuff for my candidate I went out and did the 'retail politics' thing, so I met most of the people who've run.  Sat up past midnight with Jimmy Carter in our dorm, put up Jerry Brown in our house several times, had several lunches with Jessie Jackson when I drove him around, and I also met Pat Buchanan, ShrubII, and all the opposition dudes.  And, if your looking for some really horrible people who demand things out of other that they wouldn't dream of doing themselves, well there you have them.  And, as y'all know I've worked with all your favorite rock stars, and all the ones you don't like so much too.  Some of them have so much ego that it requires a separate truck to move it, and it seeming has it's own gravity field too as people get sucked into it all the time - and once your in there you begin to realize that for these people not a single other thing on this planet - living or dead - that matters the least bit, it's really all about them, all the time.  Rock Star is just a cool way to say "douchenozzle' as far as I can tell.

I point all that out - the Big Time Jocks, the Political Scum and the Rocktards - to give you some scale for my next remark.

Really, some of you are pretty much the worst people I've ever met.  With the sickest, most nauseating, soul-sucking trait there is - that there is one rule EVERYone better follow when it comes to you, but anytime you find it convenient to blow the rest of the world out your ass you'll do it in a heartbeat.  People who would demand from others that which they are unwilling (or unable) to give themselves is one of the things that day in and day out makes the world a worse place to live in.

You don't even know if she has cancer or not.  So many people make ->-bleeped-<- up online because they're messed up.
Pot meet kettle?  (By the way, people make up all sort of ->-bleeped-<- in the real world too, when you actually get there, you'll find that out.)  How do we know you have GID, or are trans?  Or hell, maybe you are a real monkey.  Maybe you are some Jr. High kid who's mom ain't paying attention, or maybe your some Old guy in a nursing home having some fun at our expense in your last days.  Perhaps your a cop.  Or a plant - an agent provocateur - sent over from the God Hates ->-bleeped-<- church.  How do we know?  After all, all sort of messed up people are making all kinds of ->-bleeped-<- up.

If you would not take the world of a person who says they are dying of cancer (a pretty popular disease by the way, it's hardly rare), why in the hell should anyone take yours?  At least she can prove she has cancer (or a doctor can).  You don't even have that going for you.  Everyone must take you at your word, but you think everyone else is lying.  Wow.  I can't imagine how messed up the world you see is.

it would not surprise me if this woman was an emotional abuser masquerading as some sort of poor victim.
Pot meets kettle part duex.  I hear a litany of emotional abuse, one on top of the other in here every day.  Hell the site could be called "AbuseStack" there's so much of it.  Lots of victims too.  Victims of society, victims of their family, victims of thier church, victims of their government, their culture, their schools, of their kids, spouses - hell it's almost an endless list.  Lots easier to just list off who your not a victim of: yourself.  Nope none of this is due to any choice you make, nah.  Perish the thought.  You are not in here masquerading as totally superior TS person, nah.  Only cancer people do that.

She might be lying
Sure, prove it.  Or better yet, prove you're not lying.  After all: so many people make ->-bleeped-<- up online because they're messed up.

it didn't make her say that stuff
It sure could.  You're facing your own death, finding a hard time getting the right care, and taking enough meds everyday to make Keith Richards high for a month.  People in that kind of situation say all kinds of things exactly because of the way the illness takes over your life, your soul, and your mind.

I have read quite a few articles
Have read, or half read?  Or is that the same difference?  Quite the expert now that you've read something on the net.  In theory of course (which is where you are, you are abstractly studying it) there is no difference between theory and practice.  In practice (the reality of actually doing, or going through it, or being with real people who are doing it), of course there is.  And, is not the advice for dealing with such people not to engage them in the first place?  (Yes, it is.  I did read the stuff to the end.)

I dont see people even should be friendly to her.
Why not just ignore her?  But picking on her makes you look like a lightweight, and insensitive lout, someone with less than zero understanding of social manners, and someone who is so completely and utterly self absorbed that they are totally unaware of the suffering of others - or how you are coming off to others.  I'm surprised you are all not running for the Republican nomination for President.  Really.  Because turn it around - substitute 'trans' or "chaz' for cancer and your posts sound straight off of RedState or FreeRepublic. 

See, I hope you're satisfied, you've turned out just like them.


So, now I'm stuck, and see if you can help me out.  For the life of me I can't figure out why in the hell you would even engage in that kind of argument with that kind of person on-line.  It's can't be because your a stalwart defender of trans rights, because no one in their right mind is going to think that picking a fight with a cancer patient is going to further the cause.  If you think you're helping, you are not.  Just about everyone has lost someone close to them to that illness, and you just alienated every single one of them.  Thanks for nothing.

Or is it that at the end of the day you just want ever so bad to be that cheap thug, some low-rent bullies (because all bullies are low-rent)?  Does it make you feel like more of a man to go out and beat up on some sick person?  What, there wasn't a cripple around so you could kick their crutches out from underneath them?  School's not in session so you can pick on the Special Ed kids?

Or are your social skills really that bad?  Do you really have no idea how horrible you sound?  How mean that all seems?  Can't you hold a bake sale or a car wash and buy some empathy?   

If you plant ice, you're going to harvest wind.  Sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind.  You get what you give.  If you want respect, you best be giving it.  If you want people to believe you, you best believe other people.

I'll just leave this little curse: I just hope that all the people you meet and have to work with are just like you.

Just saying why get so hung up over what a person online says (or yes even in the real world (Christ, I'm not 5 years old))  OR even worry so much about what you said was 'cruel' or not, who cares.

Also, my point about her lying is that she could just be using it to make you feel sorry for her so you automatically want to believe her point and feel like a dick for wanting gender reassignment surgery. That's why people are getting so defensive about it because it's working. Just because she may or may not have cancer doesn't mean she can say whatever she wants and we're not allowed to disagree with her.

Either way, I disagree that we need these surgeries 'as much' as someone with cancer. I find that to be a bit conceited. If you want to kill yourself because of your trans, that sucks, but cancer literally kills you whether you want to die or not.

I dont get your point, it not like I want to put people down but I dont feel like respecting people putting me down just because there felling bad for themself or whatever reason they have,
like I shouldn't put anyone down just because im felling bad about me. and when people litterelly say its my own fault and I just can go on and die then I have no way of respecting these people not when im not responsible for it, and I am NOT responsible for her having cancer.

yeah your right thats the diffrent between us,

people want to help her because she got cancer
people want me dead because im a freak

she cant get help for all the other people who wanna help her, but when she want me to die then I wont help her, that sound as suicide in my ears.

tekla, I admire your compassion, in the respect that you completely acknowledge that fear of death can make people say things they might not otherwise have said.

But surely you can also understand that it's a natural reaction for members of a community to feel hurt when anyone, healthy or sick, erroneously accuses them of using up resources that could help sick and dying people.

We all have our trials, and of course we should try to understand that sometimes people say things out of hurt or anger or fear, but at the same time surely we shouldn't be allowed to unjustly vent our anger or fear onto targets that don't deserve it - targets who are facing their own trials, entirely separate, and so different that they can't possibly be held up against the trials of a person with cancer for someone to say - 'this one's better' or 'this one's worse.'   

The lady who commented on Chaz Bono's video seems to be in a lot of distress - she appears to be speaking emotionally and not entirely rationally.  There is an obvious logic behind her feelings - if you think about it in the simplest terms, it does seem unfair that people want or need to have healthy breasts removed in order to achieve quality of life, when others would give anything to have those healthy breasts.  What the lady, perhaps understandably, is missing, is that transsexual people don't actually have the impact she thinks on cancer surgery.

She also seems to be overlooking, or not grasping, the fact that though suicide might seem like a choice to those not suicidal, to the suicidal it is not so much a choice as a course of action that at the time seems like the only alternative to pain, which is why it is so vital that other alternatives to pain - alternatives that assist continued LIFE - are offered for everyone - cancer patients, people with chronic back pain, people with mental illnesses & people who are born into wrongly gendered bodies.  Because surely this is what all humankind strives for - it's what she seems to be striving for - to find solutions and alternatives to pain so that life is bearable and, if we're lucky, even enjoyable and occasionally wonderful.

Her anger's mid-directed.  Perhaps she's really angry at chance, or fate, or a Higher Power, or irony, or happenstance, or coincidence, or simply the facts of life - whatever thing it is that makes one person despise their breasts and need to get rid of them and another person long for healthy breasts, or indeed makes one person wish desperately to have been born into a female body when another born into just such a body wishes desperately to be physically male.  But because of her distress she's directed her anger at the wrong target.

I wouldn't have the faintest idea what her prognosis is, but it's awful, just awful, that she has a potentially terminal illness.  But, she's alive at present, and I don't think it's necessarily acceptable that during her time on this Earth she should spread bad feeling amongst complete strangers who are simply trying to live their lives in the best way they can.

Whether we're dying or not, we all have humanity in common - shouldn't we all try to bear in mind that everyone's a person, with their own unique difficulties, pains and problems, and saying 'mine's worse' isn't going to make anyone's any better.

True, it's not always easy to remember this.  But I reckon we should at least try.

Oh my God.  That was just the sappiest post I've ever written.

A round of 'Kumbya,' anyone?

Quote from: Clive on September 15, 2011, 04:20:00 PM
tekla, I admire your compassion, in the respect that you completely acknowledge that fear of death can make people say things they might not otherwise have said.

But surely you can also understand that it's a natural reaction for members of a community to feel hurt when anyone, healthy or sick, erroneously accuses them of using up resources that could help sick and dying people.

We all have our trials, and of course we should try to understand that sometimes people say things out of hurt or anger or fear, but at the same time surely we shouldn't be allowed to unjustly vent our anger or fear onto targets that don't deserve it - targets who are facing their own trials, entirely separate, and so different that they can't possibly be held up against the trials of a person with cancer for someone to say - 'this one's better' or 'this one's worse.'   

The lady who commented on Chaz Bono's video seems to be in a lot of distress - she appears to be speaking emotionally and not entirely rationally.  There is an obvious logic behind her feelings - if you think about it in the simplest terms, it does seem unfair that people want or need to have healthy breasts removed in order to achieve quality of life, when others would give anything to have those healthy breasts.  What the lady, perhaps understandably, is missing, is that transsexual people don't actually have the impact she thinks on cancer surgery.

She also seems to be overlooking, or not grasping, the fact that though suicide might seem like a choice to those not suicidal, to the suicidal it is not so much a choice as a course of action that at the time seems like the only alternative to pain, which is why it is so vital that other alternatives to pain are offered for everyone - cancer patients, people with chronic back pain, people with mental illnesses, people who are born into wrongly gendered bodies.  Because surely this is what all humankind strives for - it's what she seems to be striving for - to find solutions and alternatives to pain so that life is bearable and, if we're lucky, even enjoyable and occasionally wonderful.

Her anger's mid-directed.  Perhaps she's really angry at chance, or fate, or a Higher Power, or irony, or happenstance, or coincidence, or simply the facts of life - whatever thing it is that makes one person despise their breasts and need to get rid of them and another person long for healthy breasts, or indeed makes one person wish desperately to have been born into a female body when another born into just such a body wishes desperately to be physically male.  But because of her distress she's directed her anger at the wrong target.

I wouldn't have the faintest idea what her prognosis is, but it's awful, just awful, that she has a potentially terminal illness.  But, she's alive at present, and I don't think it's necessarily acceptable that during her time on this Earth she should spread bad feeling amongst complete strangers who are simply trying to live their lives in the best way they can.

Whether we're dying or not, we all have humanity in common - shouldn't we all try to bear in mind that everyone's a person, with their own unique difficulties, pains and problems, and saying 'mine's worse' isn't going to make anyone's any better.

True, it's not always easy to remember this.  But I reckon we should at least try.

Oh my God.  That was just the sappiest post I've ever written.

A round of 'Kumbya,' anyone?

im not religious but AMEN :angel:

Quote from: Natkat on September 15, 2011, 04:34:28 PM
im not religious but AMEN :angel:

I'm not religious either but... bless you ;)

I'm rather cringing at my post now, to be honest - it sounds really self-righteous and sickly to me, LOL!  But I suppose I meant all of it :)

Looks like the whole damn world prefers to walk around with their heads up their butt

The person who posted that is just stupid. You can't fix that. I might have left out the get over yourself part but clearly to OP doesn't understand the difference between a plastic surgeon and an oncologist or surgeon that treats people with cancer. The people doing boob jobs aren't the same people doing cancer surgery.

@Tekla - Completely agreed.

@Clive - I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you also.


Let that woman have her opinions, and let us have ours. We all come from somewhere different, and we can't possibly know where any other person comes from. We can't magically know whether she actually has cancer or is lying about it, but why does it matter? So what if she's completely wrong about the kinds of doctors that do these surgeries? She's made her point. As someone else (I believe Tekla said it) she could see it more like people who were born female are "giving up" healthy breasts or whatever when she could be willing to give anythingto have back what she has lost (or might lose in the future).

Imo.

Isn't it great that the same people who are spouting off about other people saying things are those ones who usually run around themselves saying that everyone should be entitled to their opinion ...

Right now, I'm sitting back with a bowl of pop corn and watching what I like to call the, "internet backlash" happen.

To the OP - would you say, "get over yourself" IF you were physically standing in front of a emaciated women who lost all her hair and doesn't have the money or insurance to do anything else but die? My guess is the answer would either be a sheepish "no" or a snotty "yes" (because you know that situation will most likely never present itself, and hey this is just the internet and we can all say whatever the fu*k we want because we're all entitled to an opinion).

People do and say awful things in the real world too, but the internet is like a no-holds-bared cage match where no one actually gets a scratch (or do they?) because it's all just words typed into a machine and then put out in "cyber space".

Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. What everyone usually messes up on is seeing past their nose. Everyone is all about free speech and free thought and freedom to do what you want with your own body and myriad other "entitled" freedoms unless of course someone else has an opposing viewpoint, or you don't like what they say or how they say it - then it's pretty much an all out assault. And I'm not talking about healthy debate amongst thinking individuals expressing themselves.

Entitlement culture, misguided notions of "freedoms", random hordes, obsessive "fandoms" ... it's like the internet is the fuel for all these fires ... and I think enough of us are out there now with our single buckets of water, starting to give a sh*t about how ridiculous it's all become.

And I'm half as bad, because I'm anonymously posting on an internet message board. But I still have some tact, I still put some brain power into thinking, and I'm well aware of how the "backlash" is progressing where the internet mob of self-important, entitled twats are going to to screw up one too many times.

Do I think that there's plenty of people out there who have prejudice against trans people? Of course ... stupid question really. Everything that exists there's people out there that have prejudices - they're as wide spread as opinions as a matter of fact (and based on them). And if you're going to take every one of people's dumbass opinions on something to heart, you're going to spend your life angry and trying to fight futile causes.

Also, like Squirrel said, it's just plain bad "pr". It's like the internet "fandom" of trans ... everyone rallying to the cause to tear apart a single person who said something messed up. This is what the internet has bred ... angry mobs looking for a Frankenstein as well as disgruntled individuals who most likely would never have the guts to get in a real life, in your face confrontational knife fight of words. And no matter what "side" you think you're on, you still lose because both sides are doing the same crap.

Now, I really think it would be awesome if people could just accept gender issues, trans folks, gay folks, etc. etc. AND that there weren't people out there who have trouble getting life-saving surgeries. I really wish there was a freely available cure for cancer and blah blah blah. But, a long time ago I clued in on the real world and the people in it and had some thoughtful realizations, the first one being that since I'm not a charismatic cult leader I can't control anyone else but myself. I can set my own moral compass, but I can't set anyone elses. I can do what I think is the "right" thing to do. I can set my own personal boundaries. I have a lot of freedoms in my life and happily I think I'm a well-adjusted, functioning, caring, contributing member to society. And yes I have my opinions and spout off occasionally but I certainly do not buy into that poorly designed "entitlement" trap. Sometimes I actually shut the fu*k up about some things (or just keep them to myself) because I don't believe having the "right" to say anything to anyone any time should actually be enacted all of the time.

Quote from: Da Monkey on September 15, 2011, 03:45:51 PM
Just saying why get so hung up over what a person online says (or yes even in the real world (Christ, I'm not 5 years old))  OR even worry so much about what you said was 'cruel' or not, who cares.

Also, my point about her lying is that she could just be using it to make you feel sorry for her so you automatically want to believe her point and feel like a dick for wanting gender reassignment surgery. That's why people are getting so defensive about it because it's working. Just because she may or may not have cancer doesn't mean she can say whatever she wants and we're not allowed to disagree with her.

Either way, I disagree that we need these surgeries 'as much' as someone with cancer. I find that to be a bit conceited. If you want to kill yourself because of your trans, that sucks, but cancer literally kills you whether you want to die or not.

I agree with this completely

Quote from: tekla on September 15, 2011, 02:42:36 PM

You get what you give.  If you want respect, you best be giving it.  If you want people to believe you, you best believe other people.

Why give something that is completely pointless to feel if you wont even get it in return? I believe that if no one shows me understanding or empathy, then there is no need for me to do so in return.  Those are just things that I do not feel, so no, this random woman who I do not know at all says she has cancer and then becomes transphobic, nah I'm not gonna feel bad for her, or worry about her stuggle. I dont even know her.

It's not a choice to be born trans.
It's not a choice to get cancer.
It's unfortunate that this person has to find a special doctor, but so do we, and we have to find the money, and go through all the hell and torment from others, and dysphoria, and etc, and they have to deal with cancer. Neither of us chose to have cancer or be trans. I would've given this ignorant person a piece of my mind and then some. Sometimes I hate everyone and everything for being born the right way, and I'd honestly rather be a biological man with any sort of cancer than be trans and deal with this crap. But We have our reasons for thinking as we do. I have the odd ability to see things from different perspectives and well...this person is in teh wrong...but...yeah. Whatever

I don't think you were cruel at all.  She was being ignorant and frustrated, I'm sure.  I mean, she probably feels that life is unfair because she has cancer.  If she knew more about transgendered people she would understand their needs.  I think you were good to stand up for yourself.  Maybe it would be even better if you could send her a personal message educating her comprehensively about how you feel, and that your issues are as deep as hers.  Maybe she's actually a decent person, who will open her mind, or maybe she's an ->-bleeped-<- who's narrow-minded, but that's what transgendered people are dealing with every day, I think.  I'm not transgendered, but I am a supporter and a sympathizer.

I think you were good to stand up for yourself and more should do so.  I know it's hard for individuals to do this in their personal lives, but I think if more mainstream people meet transgendered people and see that they are just like everyone else, they will be more accepted.  There will always be ->-bleeped-<-s, no matter what or who you are, but it would be nice if transgendered folks would be accepted by the majority of people.  Right now, they are not, because most people never encounter transfolks (that they know of), so they only think that it is bizarre and that something is wrong with you.

Keep fighting for yourselves and your rights.

Any sympathy was wasted on that lady, big surprise.   Another commenter had said:

I -3 chaz!!!

I am a bisexual female who in a relationship with an FTM and happily engaged! And to everyone out there..ignore all of the imature people and live your life. At the emd of the dau youre not tryn to make them happy youre not livin for them youre livin for you and take it from me..IT GETS BETTER :)


and the delilah woman replied

@jjduces - I'd love to know where you two freaky little lovebirds are going to get married. Since you'll have sex with anyone male or female you'll need to give up your slutty ways now. Remember, you are an engaged woman. IT GETS BETTER because waiting for you in bed is your female to male honeybunny. Correct me if I'm wrong but you both have vaginas and you have the boobs. That's going to cause a major problem because you do like a good penis once in a while. This marriage is doomed.


Yep, pretty disingenuous (and disgusting) to speak of this need for surgeons to be selfless and save women while telling other women what they need and want in a relationship and that they're sluts for being bisexual.  Judgement much?  That and the comments about Chaz's weight making him worthless piss me off far more than the transphobia, really.   The faux feminism makes me ill.   Men can be truly awful, no doubt, but they're clearly not all that's keeping women oppressed, not with attitudes like that coming from breast cancer survivors, of all things.

I totally agree with you, Bahzi.  I think there is a lot of faux feminism and faux Lgb in general.  It's strange to me that there is discrimination within discriminated groups.  For some reason, I've always been sympathetic to all minority groups, maybe because I am asian, and was discriminated against and I was always a feminist, but in a way that I thought women were equal to men, and nothing else. I just think that we are all equal, whether it's race, gender, sexual orientation, or whatever else presents itself.  As long as we all treat each other with respect, what else is there.  Why do people care what other people do, if it doesn't affect them?

I am really outraged by those who fight against gay marriage.  Why do they care?  I mean, it doesn't affect them in any way whatsoever or their children or grandchildren, so why are they so adamant against it that they are going to go out of their way to fight against it?  I just don't get it.  Ugh, I  could write a book (and maybe I will), but for now, I'm too tired to express all my opinions on this.

She is not facing death or having a hard time finding a doctor. She said in her later post to Bahzi that her cancer had been cured by her outstanding doctor. She used the Big C to gain sympathy to make her voice louder. And it worked.


I am not a victim. I am a survivor. Yes, part of that path is reading stuff, including people. It tends to make them uncomfortable at times, but I don't care.

At this point, all I can say is wowwwwwwww.

Let's assume--and I know that's risky, given that this woman was online rather than IRL--that she really is a cancer patient in remission. Like many people, she is clearly ignorant about trans issues, and she seems to be royally confused about what type of surgeon habitually performs top surgery on FTMs. ETA: Or maybe not. Maybe she's just mad because she wants her parts and we don't want the same parts.

It's almost always a lost battle, but you might try to educate her a little. Ask questions. Be sympathetic. Cancer isn't a freaking hangnail.

Telling her to get over herself? Smooth move, Ex-Lax.

I think this is one of those situations where it's better not to respond. A woman losing a breast to cancer is not going to be very sympathetic towards 'elective removal of breasts' as seen through her eyes.
Yes, she is ignorant and angry but there are better battles to fight than with a recovering cancer survivor. There seems to be bitterness on all sides here, 'who has it worse?' Better not to go down that track, IMO.

Well said Hermione01.

Well it's not just the one poster, it's everyone who has ever had their life impacted by cancer, which is a hella lot of people.  Like many others when I see that word I don't think of some thing rare, or even of it as a disease, but 'as the thing that killed my mother.'  And several other people I like.  It's not abstract.  It's personal.

Quote from: tekla on September 19, 2011, 08:09:47 PM
Well it's not just the one poster, it's everyone who has ever had their life impacted by cancer, which is a hella lot of people.  Like many others when I see that word I don't think of some thing rare, or even of it as a disease, but 'as the thing that killed my mother.'  And several other people I like.  It's not abstract.  It's personal.

I watched my mom die of breast cancer and my childhood friend has a brain tumor.

Quote from: Hermione01 on September 19, 2011, 06:46:42 PM
I think this is one of those situations where it's better not to respond. A woman losing a breast to cancer is not going to be very sympathetic towards 'elective removal of breasts' as seen through her eyes.
Yes, she is ignorant and angry but there are better battles to fight than with a recovering cancer survivor. There seems to be bitterness on all sides here, 'who has it worse?' Better not to go down that track, IMO.

This.

Quote from: Hermione01 on September 19, 2011, 06:46:42 PM
I think this is one of those situations where it's better not to respond. A woman losing a breast to cancer is not going to be very sympathetic towards 'elective removal of breasts' as seen through her eyes.
Yes, she is ignorant and angry but there are better battles to fight than with a recovering cancer survivor. There seems to be bitterness on all sides here, 'who has it worse?' Better not to go down that track, IMO.

Agreed. Most women want their breasts. I haven't seen the video or where the comment was made, but I probably would have read it and kept going along on my internet journey. I think everyone has it the same amount of badness, just in different forms.

Quote from: tekla on September 19, 2011, 08:09:47 PM
Well it's not just the one poster, it's everyone who has ever had their life impacted by cancer, which is a hella lot of people.  Like many others when I see that word I don't think of some thing rare, or even of it as a disease, but 'as the thing that killed my mother.'  And several other people I like.  It's not abstract.  It's personal.

Yeah ... I watched a very close friend die of it (who was barely over 30 no less - cancer knows no age limits! whee.) and my partner's mom ... and 3 friend's moms now. It is personal.

Quote from: xxScarlettxx on September 14, 2011, 01:15:39 PM"I have cancer. My chances of surviving depend on finding a GYN/ONC whose specialty is surgery for "female" cancers. Only 1000 of these surgeons in the US means only 30% of women get the right surgery. I'm angry watching a surgeon remove healthy breasts and choosing to cater to people like Chaz who won't die if they have to live with breasts while women with cancer will die. I realize people may kill themselves who can't get sex changes but that's their choice. Dying of cancer isn't a choice."

Wow, that's a pretty dumb thing to say. Pretty rude and illogical or maybe just ill-informed.

That said, if I were you I would not have commented at all. You did not help anything.

QuoteLike many others when I see that word I don't think of some thing rare, or even of it as a disease, but 'as the thing that killed my mother.'  And several other people I like.  It's not abstract.  It's personal.

So, that explains it. Why didn't you say that before, instead of lashing out at people?
I'm sorry for your loss.


I don't think the guys in here are such rotten apples or even unsympathetic when we can see that a person is truly suffering. We might come across as insensitive jerks at times...we might even really be insensitive jerks at times. But I would hope that at the end of the day we can learn to tolerate, or even love each other warts and all instead of judging people based on one or two comments made from their perspective that day.

Many of us have been touched by someone with cancer and no, it's not funny. It's awful. None of the people in my life have acted like that woman, though...including a friend who had a double mastectomy a year before my transition.

Sometimes we take things in a different way than how they're intended. Sometimes we get upset because the perceived issue at hand is close to our hearts. For some of us, the issue of suicide may be as close as cancer. Not just because we've tried it ourselves or thought about it or care about the kids the "It Gets Better" project is reaching out to, but because some have also lost loved ones to it.

This is a support forum. Our stuff is not worse than/better than anything else needing support. It just is. Nor is anybody in here worse than/better than because of their particular view. We just is. Sometimes we disagree. That's life. No big deal.

I don´t think it was cruel but I feel sorry for that person :( You know lots of "common" people don´t know what it means to be an FTM/MTF and that we usually don´t have a choice too. I am FtM and if I couldn´t go through the transition I would have killed myself. But those people can´t understand this and they usually say - you´re healthy, why aren´t you satisfied??? They don´t see our souls are suffering from being in the wrong bodies. I can´t be angry with them and if they don´t have enough understanding for us I do have enough for them.
PS - sorry for possible mistakes, my mother tongue is not English

people dont really understand some do, and I must say the future start to get better for us,
but either we are seen as not ill meaning we are healthy and just crazy or otherwise we are sick people but sick as in our mind again. its also been a discussion if we should be healthy or sick in my country being transexesual is a mental illness, some are aganst because they think it will put us down to be mental ill and it give us less right (yeah sure it dose ex you cant adopt if your mental ill/transexual) and some like it to stay because they think people wouldnt help us or take us seriously if we claim to be healthy.

I am aganst being mental ill cause I dont see it as an illness to be diffrent, what I think is hurting is that we arnt accepted, homosexual have also been seen as mental ill people, because sociaty made them to be, I think its the same for transgender people..

anyway it went a little of topic.

tomas; its okay my first languarge isnt english as well and I think alot of people here are non-english speakers.
where are you from? sorry be to offtopic agian.

Hi Natkat! I had no idea how many people are English and non-English speakers here, I though most of them are English. I am from the Czech Republic, a state in central Europe. And you?
Our people have the same problem you write about. Transsexuality is consider as a mental illness and some people want to change it. I don´t think we are ill but this determination guarantee us that the surgery will be paid by health insurance. And that´s much more important for me. If they decided we are healthy, we would have to pay for the surgeries. And most of us don´t have enough money. It could lead to suicides :(

Quote from: Tomas on September 21, 2011, 04:51:31 PM
Hi Natkat! I had no idea how many people are English and non-English speakers here, I though most of them are English. I am from the Czech Republic, a state in central Europe. And you?
Our people have the same problem you write about. Transsexuality is consider as a mental illness and some people want to change it. I don´t think we are ill but this determination guarantee us that the surgery will be paid by health insurance. And that´s much more important for me. If they decided we are healthy, we would have to pay for the surgeries. And most of us don´t have enough money. It could lead to suicides :(

im from Denmark and its pretty sumular, however the state dosent really pay for surgery in most caises its people themself.

I cant give a exactly word on how everything is with all small details, but we got 1 hospital who dignose you transexual and who also make surgyes, its very hard to get permission there so most people go to other countrys and use there own money to do so since its faster, better, more easy, and in some caises also more cheap.
there still things you must go thought there to get or not get, ex chancing your gender-name or gender on you ID card.

Wow, I finally got around to tackling this thread, and in the beginning I had stuff to say. But then the rambling and justifications started filling up my screen and now it seems pointless to even bother.

Needless to say, is any of this really that important in the long run? She doesn't like us, woop-di-doo, we don't like her either. What does it matter if she's a cancer-riddled, emanciated tumble of disjointed limbs or an internet troll who's only objective is to tear forums like ours appart from the inside out?

Either way it's fun, chillax guys; the popcorn's warm and buttery and you're all just getting frazzled over nothing.

Quote from: MaxAloysius on September 22, 2011, 09:50:03 AM
Wow, I finally got around to tackling this thread, and in the beginning I had stuff to say. But then the rambling and justifications started filling up my screen and now it seems pointless to even bother.

Needless to say, is any of this really that important in the long run? She doesn't like us, woop-di-doo, we don't like her either. What does it matter if she's a cancer-riddled, emanciated tumble of disjointed limbs or an internet troll who's only objective is to tear forums like ours appart from the inside out?

Either way it's fun, chillax guys; the popcorn's warm and buttery and you're all just getting frazzled over nothing.

I guess it somehow is influencing because we dont want to be evil people, and we all know its best to help the ones who need so,
beside that I think most people know at least 1 person or will know one who had dealth with cancer if not themself.

Quote from: Natkat on September 22, 2011, 08:51:21 AM
im from Denmark and its pretty sumular, however the state dosent really pay for surgery in most caises its people themself.

I cant give a exactly word on how everything is with all small details, but we got 1 hospital who dignose you transexual and who also make surgyes, its very hard to get permission there so most people go to other countrys and use there own money to do so since its faster, better, more easy, and in some caises also more cheap.
there still things you must go thought there to get or not get, ex chancing your gender-name or gender on you ID card.

Wow:( I didn´t know how much difficult is the transition for TS people in Denmark... In our country you must go to a sexuologist. You can choose any of them but there are about three sexuologists who specialize in transsexuality and it´s better to visit one of them. If you know who you are and don´t doubt about it, s/he sends you to psychologist, endocrinologist and internist. If everything´s ok, you must visit the sexuologist once a month for about a year ad have a small talk about how you are, how you feel etc. At the same time you take testosterone (pills and shots). After one year, if you want, you can ask the special committee for giving a permission for surgeries. They don´t usually have problems with that. And then you can choose the doctors who will operate you and arrange the date of surgeries. For mastectomy and hysterectomy there are a variety of doctors, but if you want the phalloplasty, there is only one or two doctors in the republic. After hysterectomy you can change your name and gender on your ID. All the surgeries are paid by health insurance company, you must only pay for pills, shots and charges for doctors - sexuologist, endo and internist. So TS people have good conditions for transition here. In fact, lots of TS people from Slovakia, our neighbor country, move to our country and undergo the transitions here because they have terrible conditions in Slovakia. There are lots of thinks I don´t like about our country but I appreciate we have had one of the best health systems in the world so far. But our politicians want to make some changes and it is not so good for our people...

Quote from: Hermione01 on September 19, 2011, 06:46:42 PM
I think this is one of those situations where it's better not to respond. A woman losing a breast to cancer is not going to be very sympathetic towards 'elective removal of breasts' as seen through her eyes.
Yes, she is ignorant and angry but there are better battles to fight than with a recovering cancer survivor. There seems to be bitterness on all sides here, 'who has it worse?' Better not to go down that track, IMO.

This.