Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Susan invited me to be a part of this forum, and I want to publicly thank her for her friendship and all she's done for our GLBT community. I'm pastor of a small GLBT-affirming church here in Tennessee, and I wanted to start a few threads specifically geared toward the Christian walk.

I know a lot of the members here are of different faiths or of no faith, and Susan and I both respect the difference of opinion regarding our spiritual lives. These posts will reflect my own walk and convictions, and I merely invite anyone to read along and share their own thoughts.

So, without further ado, I want to present the first of what I hope to be many posts here on the forum at susans.org:

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What an exciting time it is for us at Christian Community Church of Clarksville (http://www.christiancommunityclarksville.com). We've never been more focused on our mission for Clarksville and the surrounding areas than we are right now. Sure, we're small. That's okay!

After all, how many people did it take to change the world? Twelve.

Yes, we're focused. But before I start talking about our mission, I want to take a minute to apologize. I'm sorry, dear friends. I'm sorry that the church (in general, not just us) has failed to minister to so many of you who are hungry for real, genuine fellowship. I'm sorry that we've been hypocritical. We're sorry for being a bunch of self-righteous, judgmental bastards. We've pointed fingers. We've gossiped. God knows that this goes on about anywhere you can imagine.

And yes, I'm lumping CCC-Clarksville in that mass group of churches. You see, we're all part of the body of Christ. It's not a mass collection of individual churches that we have here in Clarksville. We're all part of the same body, the same baptism, the same faith. We have ONE Lord. Some of our brethren are quick to condemn, quick to judge, and quick to point fingers. And that affects all of us. And for that, I sincerely apologize.

This is a new day. It's a new morning where the snow is still on the ground, and our eyes are fixed squarely on one thing: Jesus. So what is our focus? It's simple. We are focused on loving people, giving you a Christian church home where you can grow, be loved, sit on the sidelines, or get involved. We're all in this thing together. All we need is YOU.

Okay, so you don't live here in Clarksville. Perfect. Faith is a personal thing for everyone, and I invite anyone to participate on the discussion here. The message that I'll share is simple: GRACE. I believe it's for everyone, no matter who you are, or who you love.

Thank you.  Most of us just want to live our lives in a peaceful manner and those of us who are christians would like to participate in the christian faith without worry of ridicule or scorn.  I consider myself mostly christian (that's what my beliefs are mostly centered around), but I fear going to church in that I would be kicked out and my life made even more miserable because of it.  I consider myself a very loving individual and I don't judge people.  I don't even judge those who judge me.  I just feel sorry for them that they are unable to be loving and non-judgemental people as well and that they need to live in constant fear of us.  We don't "corrupt" or anything.  We just sought healing and want to continue (for the most part) how we lived in our previous lives. 

Nobody can really find any rock solid (without exception) definition to gender including in the bible other than how we identify.  Therefore there really is nothing in there that says we are really doing anything that isn't a generally accepted practice by most christians that defies anything in the bible.  If it talks about bodily modification, there's plenty of counter examples including things as simple as braces or laser eye surgery, not to mention a whole host of other surgeries.

Anyhow, most christians can agree we are just people too and as far as I knew, there was nothing wrong with a person attending a church regardless of gender.  Thank you for taking the time to listen. :)

Melissa

Thanks and welcome David i being the ever curious one of the battallion will read and follow with encorugament to see how your posts develope!
I have some nyclad body armor in case it gets a little wiggy, Huh-hummm not that that ever happens, hehe... :P
again welcome
Ricki

David,

Welcome to Susans!

Thank you for the apology, but there is no need.  Since Susan invited you here, you already understand that all of us are children of the Almighty.

I am one of the fortunate ones here - I have found a parish that is accepting and welcoming of the LBGT community.  St. Andrews is a place where I will be able to transition and continue my music ministry.  (St. Andrews is the place where people who have left the priesthood and sisterhood come to worship.)  It's an open secret at present.

I look forward to reading your words and interacting with you here at Susans.

Chaunte

It's not your fault.  I think most of us understand that we can't judge a whole religion based on the actions of a few people.  Some people do spectacular work, some threaten the future civilization as we know it, and most fall somewhere between the others.

That said, I'm more of an ignostic (hard agnostic on the basis of science), and miracles or God's existence seem highly improbable.  I think we can still analyze The Bible as a literary work, in the context of the culture at the time, in order to glean truths that we can apply in our lives today - the largest seems to be to love others and have civilized honest discourse instead of selfishly and hastily imposing our will and thoughts on others.

Regardless of the basis of one's beliefs, I think we can share our own perspectives on various issues and still find common ground.  If we can hit upon principles that transcend many belief systems, they will be much easier to promote and use.

QuoteYes, we're focused. But before I start talking about our mission, I want to take a minute to apologize. I'm sorry, dear friends. I'm sorry that the church (in general, not just us) has failed to minister to so many of you who are hungry for real, genuine fellowship. I'm sorry that we've been hypocritical. We're sorry for being a bunch of self-righteous, judgmental bastards. We've pointed fingers. We've gossiped. God knows that this goes on about anywhere you can imagine.

Clearly, you are not a part of this 'we' you are talking about. You are a part of the Christian Church. That doesn't make you part of the people that think Christianity is all about shouting people with different opinions will all rot in hell.
(If I remember my gospels correctly, Jesus Christ would probably burst into tears if he were to be confronted by those people...)
But as you yourself clearly prove, not all Christians feel that way. My father doesn't, and he's a reverend. (Don't know if I spelled correctly; in Dutch it's called a Dominee.) I know many people who don't feel that way, many people who are members of the Church my father preaches in. Most of them don't. His church was the first church in the NL that had gay marriages, for example. This church works in perfect harmony with catholic churches, baptist churches, and even wants to work together with some pagan groups. (However, due to prejudice from both sides, the latter is a bit tricky still.)
They think God is not just a shepherd for them alone, but for all people, whatever gender, race, sexual preference or spiritual persuasion. So for me, this has proven that móst christians aren't spiteful 'fundies.' It's just that the spiteful fundies have the loudest voices.
So again, me, too: You have no reason to offer your apology.

Instead, I thank you for all the effort you have made!

Welcome David.  As with your church, the one I attend here in Atlanta is small and is the only More Light Presbyterian church in Georgia.  I look forward to future posts from you and if I may, I want to use your comment about taking only 12 to change the world.

BeverlyAnn

Quote from: BeverlyAnn on February 25, 2007, 10:28:10 AM
Welcome David.  As with your church, the one I attend here in Atlanta is small and is the only More Light Presbyterian church in Georgia.  I look forward to future posts from you and if I may, I want to use your comment about taking only 12 to change the world.

BeverlyAnn

Hi BeverylyAnn... of course you can use it. Thanks for the welcome!

David

David i want to ask... (since i was posting a touch ago and stated it in a post)
"why doesn't my God acknowledge my pain and help me"....??
I ask for the extreme and often times just for the next place to put my next foot step..He's answered in some ways but i cannot see all...
I know without preaching too much and disturbing the bats that are resting, can you offer some insight for me? (maybe others that ask the same question to themselves?)
Thanks
Ricki

Dear David,

First of all, thanks for coming here. I am sure there are others here that would appreciate having the spiritual perspective. I appreciate your candid and direct manner.

Secondly, I'm one of the ones you've injured deeply. In my opinion there is nothing you or any other Christian could say to compensate for what your people have done to us. In that same vein I won't hold you up to obloquy for their actions.

Christianity made me hate myself before I could think critically. Christianity took my family away and judged me an abomination. I say this because I want you to understand - I'm not interested in being proselytized to.

Those are my boundaries, which I would want you to respect. In turn, I'll respect your belief that Christianity is compatible with GLBT rights

Bri.

Quote from: Ricki on February 25, 2007, 06:35:57 PM
David i want to ask... (since i was posting a touch ago and stated it in a post)
"why doesn't my God acknowledge my pain and help me"....??
I ask for the extreme and often times just for the next place to put my next foot step..He's answered in some ways but i cannot see all...
I know without preaching too much and disturbing the bats that are resting, can you offer some insight for me? (maybe others that ask the same question to themselves?)
Thanks
Ricki

Hi Ricki,

It is, of course, extremely difficult to answer questions like this without knowing the situations, and certainly without sounding trite. You've got real frustrations, real struggles, and real problems. I know better than to answer any of that with anything that starts with, "Well, the Bible says..."

One of the realities of life is that it will suck. >-bleeped-< happens. And for those of us who are in the GLBT community, it goes even beyond that. I know that the gay teen suicide rate is three times of straight kids. And transgender people have a suicide rate several times higher than gays. Times like this even '>-bleeped-< happens" is trite.

But I'll tell you what I *think*. I've always seen God as an intimate part of my life, and in all of our lives. If that were so, you might ask, why does all this happen? Well, it's like I said. Life happens. >-bleeped-< happens. So many times, we're alone, frustrated, bitter, and can't really talk to anyone. And when we do, we're rejected, cast out, told that we're abominations... you know the story all too well.

I think that the peace and hope that God gives isn't the absence of turmoil or the absence of frustrations. We always want to be in control, but we're not. I think that God's peace is in the middle of those struggles. It's the kind of peace that doesn't make any sense at all, and makes everyone around us think we're nuts because we're dealing with it. It's the kind of peace that we get when we finally overcome or stand strong in the middle of that storm.

I submit that it's possible that even when he doesn't provide the extreme, he's still there... even providing for that next step. Even if it's a tiny speck of a glimmer of hope, he's there. If there's even an ounce of love, he's there. And when you have only enough faith to say, "why the hell is this happening to me?" he's there. Because sometimes that speck, ounce, or prayer of agony, is just what it takes for us to finally break through.

There's power in numbers, though. I know that through places like this, we can all bond. We can all support each other. It doesn't have to be a "church." Where two or more are gathered in his name, even to cry out of sadness, he's there.

I think faith is built through relationships... with each other, and with God. So often, we feel like we have to go it alone. But imagine what would happen if even two people prayed over a cup of coffee for each other, without judgment, without condemnation, just a mutual love and respect for each other as people of faith. It's incredible, really. It's also scary since it requires enough freedom and transparency to say to each other, I need help."

There are countless people out there who have asked the same thing. Why doesn't God acknowledge your pain? I think he does. I think he IS helping you. The frustrating part is that you can't see it. God knows I understand what that is like.

I pray that you'll find that peace you desperately need. I pray that His arms will embrace you in ways you've never experienced. And I pray that you'll find hope, even when it seems impossible.

Quote from: Brianna on February 25, 2007, 08:05:04 PM
Dear David,

First of all, thanks for coming here. I am sure there are others here that would appreciate having the spiritual perspective. I appreciate your candid and direct manner.

Secondly, I'm one of the ones you've injured deeply. In my opinion there is nothing you or any other Christian could say to compensate for what your people have done to us. In that same vein I won't hold you up to obloquy for their actions.

Christianity made me hate myself before I could think critically. Christianity took my family away and judged me an abomination. I say this because I want you to understand - I'm not interested in being proselytized to.

Those are my boundaries, which I would want you to respect. In turn, I'll respect your belief that Christianity is compatible with GLBT rights

Bri.

Hi Bri.

First of all, I want you to understand that I have no intention of proselytizing on this forum. After all, Susan knows where I live... she'd kick my ass if I did.

I remember hearing one of the Beatles.. Lennon, maybe?... "I think Jesus is okay, but I don't care much for his followers" or something like that. Another bumper sticker I love says, "Lord, save me from your followers." Sadly, so many Christians have more in common with the hateful religious leaders who demanded the crucifixion of Christ than with Christ Himself.

His message was simple: "Love God, love people." Too often, we Christians have forgotten that. As a result, we've deeply wounded and even killed people... physically and metaphysically... to the point that even calling myself a Christian makes me one of the "bad guys." I'm keenly aware of the deadly words that have been hurled by my brethren.

As I'm keenly aware of the extreme bitterness and anger in your words. You have a right to be angry. You SHOULD be angry. From what I can tell, your faith was abused, you were verbally abused, and you were raked through the muck that eventually drove you away from faith entirely. I'm sorry you've endured such loss because of "Christianity."

I've said it before, and I say it again. I'm sorry that the church ... and Christians ... have been self-righteous, judgmental bastards. My prayer and hope is that some of those wounds will heal enough so that you can build relationships with those of us who are of faith without letting those wounds drive you to speaking bitter words that will wound those who have themselves also been wounded.

Yes, you have boundaries. And I can understand that. I respect that. However, I do want to correct you on one thing. I do not believe that Christianity is "compatible" with LGBT rights.

I believe that true Christianity CALLS for LGBT rights. It's not an issue of compatibility, it's an issue of injustice. And where there is injustice, especially injutice in the name of "Chrisitanity," it is evil at its purest form. Such injustice has hijacked a faith centered on love and twisted it for their own bigoted hate. That's not Christianity. That's just pure evil. Many of those people, just like the Pharisees, believed they were doing God a favor. Christ called such people "den of vipers" and "bleached tombs." I think it fits.

I believe Christ preached love, tolerance, justice, and equaity. And so will I. My boundaries are narrow. Beat me up, slap me, or even crucify me. My message will remain the same: God is love.

I won't try to compensate. I'm not a fool. But I'll still write about the grace and love of God. My writings are for everyone. With that in mind, I think your boundaries will be will protected.

Thanks again for writing.I look forward to participating more on the board!

I've suffered many of the same things that Bri is currently going through and I became quite cynical.  But I still had the need to participate in a church.  I dropped by the MCC in Salt Lake City one Sunday afternoon.  I experienced true love, compassion, and total acceptance for the very first time in my life that afternoon.  I wrote about it in my book.

David, I've long maintained that Christ taught that love of God and fellow man were the principle commandments.  No, I'm not a Christian so much any more.  But those laws I can abide. They have become the mainstay in my life. I've mellowed considerably over the years concerning my "Christian" family and the environment in which I was born.

I'm glad that you are here to help those who are in considerable pain.  They need the help, support, and love that has been denied them in their world where Christ has been stripped of all the things that are good and righteous.  It's so hard to lose everything because of a birth defect.

Cindi

Quote"I think Jesus is okay, but I don't care much for his followers"

Yup, John Lennon. But it was a Mahatma Ghandi quote.

Quote from: Dryad on February 26, 2007, 05:35:23 AM

Quote"I think Jesus is okay, but I don't care much for his followers"

Yup, John Lennon. But it was a Mahatma Ghandi quote.

Great! Thanks for the tip. That's what I get for trying to quote someone after a long day. For those looking for GLBT-affirming churches, I recommend going to www.gaychurch.org to find one in their area. That site does a great job in building a national database for welcoming churches, so take a look.

Thanks David.  I think I will check out one of these churches.

Melissa

Quote from: David W. Shelton on February 25, 2007, 11:56:05 PM
Sadly, so many Christians have more in common with the hateful religious leaders who demanded the crucifixion of Christ than with Christ Himself.

His message was simple: "Love God, love people." Too often, we Christians have forgotten that. As a result, we've deeply wounded and even killed people... physically and metaphysically... to the point that even calling myself a Christian makes me one of the "bad guys." I'm keenly aware of the deadly words that have been hurled by my brethren.

And where there is injustice, especially injutice in the name of "Chrisitanity," it is evil at its purest form. Such injustice has hijacked a faith centered on love and twisted it for their own bigoted hate. That's not Christianity. That's just pure evil. Many of those people, just like the Pharisees, believed they were doing God a favor. Christ called such people "den of vipers" and "bleached tombs." I think it fits.

I believe Christ preached love, tolerance, justice, and equaity. And so will I. My boundaries are narrow. Beat me up, slap me, or even crucify me. My message will remain the same: God is love.

I won't try to compensate. I'm not a fool. But I'll still write about the grace and love of God. My writings are for everyone.

David,
Thank you so much for these words.  These read almost verbatim from some of my posts.  Please keep up the good work.  And thank you for your courage.  Please never give in to those legalisms which will dilute the gospel, and keep it from being heard by those whom Christ cared for, and still cares for today.  You are right in that there are those who need some really good news, yet feel it cannot possibly be for them, because of what some have done, supposedly in the name of Christ.  The grace of Christ is a radical thing, and except for pockets of illumination, I do not think the church understands what it means. 

Peace,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

David, thank you for being here.

I'm truly afraid of the bigots who justify their attitude and behavior towards the GLBT community as being Christian.  You will have your work cut out for you with this group.  But I hope that in the end you do convince most if not all of us w2ounded by religious intolerance that there ARE Christians out there who do care and who do live a life of love and acceptance for all.

I'm afraid you won't find me in any pews anytime soon.  But rest assured I am following a spiritual path, as unconventional as it may seem to mainstream fundavangelists.

Allow me to add my-

Welcome!

Karen

Quote from: Karen on February 27, 2007, 12:21:22 AM
You will have your work cut out for you with this group.  But I hope that in the end you do convince most if not all of us w2ounded by religious intolerance that there ARE Christians out there who do care and who do live a life of love and acceptance for all.

I don't know Karen. I don't have any doubt that there are caring Christians that are decent people. Some of the most supportive people of my transition have been Christians. I don't think that's the issue. I think the question is "What intrinsic worth lies in the Christian belief system?"

Here is my opinion.

Transsexualism is primarily a health care issue. But it's also something that really makes you consider some difficult things - harder things than even gays have to contemplate. It made me come to a strong conclusion that God is just a lie, and the people that believe in him do so out of psychological need and projection.

This belief is absolutely as valid, and should be respected - especially since it's based on evidence and not something unprovable - like faith.

I guess my question is this. What do you think transsexuals would get from subscribing to the belief system that oppresses us? It's a flawed analogy, but this seems like "Uncle Tom's Cabin" to me. Come act like the civilized Christian white man and be a house slave and we'll deem you with a modicum of respect.

It's funny. In your response to me you tell me you respect my boundaries of not wanting any part in your private beliefs. Yet you call my views towards Christians "extremly bitter" and "angry." You tell me you will pray for me. It's the same "Let me constantly insinuate that beliefs are right" song and dance, and I feel it pushes people away.

Again, I respect your belief system. For me, it was a hard lesson in being a woman - respect the right of people to have opinions that differ from yours. But I don't agree with it or want to be subjected to it.

Bri

David, while reading your post, tears started welling up in my eyes.  At a personal level I have been rejected by so-called Christians, mostly in my own family.  I didn't realize how much pain there was in my heart because of that.  And they justify their rejection of me because in their eyes I am a sinner.

I was raised Roman Catholic.  In many senses I had it shoved down my throat.  I would attend church regularly, sometimes daily, because I believed God would love me more if I did. 

As I got into my teen years I began to see a pattern that eventually turned me away from the Catholic church.  After the reading of the gospel, the priest would then begin asking for money.  I looked around and saw this beautiful ornate building I was in.  I saw real gold, expensive stained glass windows, carved marble statues all in a perfectly maintained church.  Yet every sermon they talked incessantly about needing more money.  They were barely able to get by on what was being donated.  The monsignor was the worst. 

One day I stayed after to talk to some friends.  As I was walking home I passed the rectory.  The grass was meticulously groomed, bushes perfectly trimmed.  Not a leaf or blade of grass on the sidewalks.  I heard a car approaching from the driveway and I saw a brand new Cadillac approaching.  The driver was the priest who had just been telling his flock how poor they were.  At that point I began questioning my religion.

As time went on I heard things that were far more disturbing to me than begging for money you don't really need.  They talked about the evils in the world and there was a hint of one of those evils being me.  Not me in particular but people who are "different".  They need to be eliminated! 

When I read about the life of Jesus Christ I never see him rejecting people or being intolerant of them.  He accepted all people and that's how he helped them.  He loved his fellow man unconditionally.

Today you see the religious right bashing people they don't even know.  I am a transsexual.  Those who know me will tell you I am anything but evil.  I want to help people.  That's what makes me feel alive.  I care for all living things.  I can't even kill an insect.  Yet the religious right brands me a pervert, a deviant, a child molester, a street-walker.  And not one of them has ever taken the time to get to know me.  Yes, they are hypocrites.  They long ago lost the true meaning of being a Christian.  Is it any wonder why I have no desire to join their faith?

I can't say if I'll ever become involved in organized religion again.  I believe in God and life after death.  And I believe I will be judged by the way I have treated God's creations.  For now, that's my religion.

Thank you so very much for your letter.  Your heartfelt sincerity is obvious and it touched my soul.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on February 27, 2007, 10:03:48 AM
David, while reading your post, tears started welling up in my eyes.  At a personal level I have been rejected by so-called Christians, mostly in my own family.  I didn't realize how much pain there was in my heart because of that.  And they justify their rejection of me because in their eyes I am a sinner.

I was raised Roman Catholic.  In many senses I had it shoved down my throat.  I would attend church regularly, sometimes daily, because I believed God would love me more if I did. 

As I got into my teen years I began to see a pattern that eventually turned me away from the Catholic church.  After the reading of the gospel, the priest would then begin asking for money.  I looked around and saw this beautiful ornate building I was in.  I saw real gold, expensive stained glass windows, carved marble statues all in a perfectly maintained church.  Yet every sermon they talked incessantly about needing more money.  They were barely able to get by on what was being donated.  The monsignor was the worst. 

One day I stayed after to talk to some friends.  As I was walking home I passed the rectory.  The grass was meticulously groomed, bushes perfectly trimmed.  Not a leaf or blade of grass on the sidewalks.  I heard a car approaching from the driveway and I saw a brand new Cadillac approaching.  The driver was the priest who had just been telling his flock how poor they were.  At that point I began questioning my religion.

As time went on I heard things that were far more disturbing to me than begging for money you don't really need.  They talked about the evils in the world and there was a hint of one of those evils being me.  Not me in particular but people who are "different".  They need to be eliminated! 

When I read about the life of Jesus Christ I never see him rejecting people or being intolerant of them.  He accepted all people and that's how he helped them.  He loved his fellow man unconditionally.

Today you see the religious right bashing people they don't even know.  I am a transsexual.  Those who know me will tell you I am anything but evil.  I want to help people.  That's what makes me feel alive.  I care for all living things.  I can't even kill an insect.  Yet the religious right brands me a pervert, a deviant, a child molester, a street-walker.  And not one of them has ever taken the time to get to know me.  Yes, they are hypocrites.  They long ago lost the true meaning of being a Christian.  Is it any wonder why I have no desire to join their faith?

I can't say if I'll ever become involved in organized religion again.  I believe in God and life after death.  And I believe I will be judged by the way I have treated God's creations.  For now, that's my religion.

Thank you so very much for your letter.  Your heartfelt sincerity is obvious and it touched my soul.

Julie

Julie, you are so right when you stated that Jesus loves people unconditionally. That's the whole idea of being a Christian. Matthew, one of his disciples, was a hated tax collector. Jesus forgave Peter for denying Him. Jesus forgave those who crucified Him. THAT is love. This is how I try to live my life.  I will share more of my revelations as a trans person in another blog.

Gennee

Julie, I grew up Southern Baptist so I understand what you are saying. I heard many times from the pulpit what a danger all us deviants are and it caused me to not set foot in a church except on rare occasions for about 25 years.  Then a few years ago, I was lucky to find a small church who's mission statement says in part, "a safe place to worship where you can be who God intended you to be."  Needless to say it's been a wonderful experience. 

And as for money, I know of one Southern Baptist church that when you join wants to see your W-2 form so they know how much to expect of you.  And this church already owns something like four blocks in the downtown area of a large city in Florida.

Quote from: Julie Marie on February 27, 2007, 10:03:48 AM

Today you see the religious right bashing people they don't even know. 
Julie

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "The Religious Right is neither."

Bev

thank you David for your response to my questions.
I think you were very honest and sincere in what you said.  I did not expect an answer (i mean if you are an angel and can provide it lovely :angel:) but in reality i know..
Knowing and dealing are two seperate ends of the ruler.
funny i like what you said about life i refer to a psychologist Dr Friday who set about stating rules for life in his education materials and lectures and one of them states specifically "life is hard-it's supposed to be"..
Well anyway i thank you again and add only this for now:
I do not have nearly the depth of some of the folks here do with Christianity as far as being hurt and the like.
I do not recall awful experiences at church or in sunday school, but as i got older and tried to find my way i would like to think that i have some sort of bond with my God and some sort of relationship (that is not in a house full of people), a very open one.
I do not hesitate to think to him or say to him what i feel and ask for things that i know are probably never going to happen but i do.  It's us.
I have a bound with angels and believe in them as well.  But these things (i do not even know if it would be defined as christianity) i have are faith based  with what i know and how i feel, not based on text and scripture. 
I do not think this is wrong it's just my way of trying to hold onto a faith and have that in my life.
Fellowship is a hard thing not because i have issues with Christianity per say but with the whole pickle barrel, really.  To go into a proper town church and rise up to the pastor and ask him to help me and ask the parishners to support me because i am transgendered? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :icon_help:
only then to have the pastor say he will but have to work within the limitations of his scriptures and to have the wonderful parishners (your friends, townspeople, etc..) say they do to then not be a foot off the church's step and then the gossipping starts and rumors and hurtful things...
very sad and i do not open a door for that event to happen.
Seems to me Christianity has lost or not found more good christians because of their ignorant ways and the bad ones they have fenced in.
Well anyway I'm sorry that was not a nice thing to just say i mean it in general terms not in a hateful way..
Thank you & I look forward to reading more of what you post! :-*
Ricki

Quote from: Brianna on February 27, 2007, 09:17:21 AM

This belief [that there is no God] is absolutely as valid, and should be respected - especially since it's based on evidence and not something unprovable - like faith.

On Sunday night I watched the DVD, "Jesus Camp", a documentary about a children's ministry withing the Pentecostal church.  The movie was amazingly even-handed.  So much so, that while progressives are shaking their heads in disbelief at what goes on in pentecostal ministries and the narrow-mindedness of such families, Pentecostals themselves are buying copies of the DVD to give to friends and non-believers because they are shown in such a positive, truthful light.

I watched the movie again, with the Directors' commentary turned on, to see what else I could glean.

At the end, to explain the families' beliefs in the face of evidence contradicting their beliefs, the directors said;

"Faith trumps EVERYTHING"

I will remember those words for the rest of my life -- faith trumps everything...

Karen

Quote from: Brianna on February 27, 2007, 09:17:21 AM
It made me come to a strong conclusion that God is just a lie, and the people that believe in him do so out of psychological need and projection. This belief is absolutely as valid, and should be respected - especially since it's based on evidence and not something unprovable - like faith.

But with no God(s) there can be no spirituality. Thus someone who felt that way reallly should have no reason to be in here bashing other people's faith. Right or wrong?

David;
  Greetings and welcome. Truly many have been hurt in the name of Chritianity and just as there arose a king that knew not Joseph, there are many that have arisen that know not God. It's a shame that they have forgotten they are but gentiles after the flaesh and have nothing to boast but in Christ the Lord. I hope that you can help those here who have been the subject of ridicule, hate and excommunication.
  The mainstream may look down on many here but we know the Lord weighs the thoughts and intents of the heart.
  Like Isaiah 66:5 says, Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
  Just as light manifests darkness, I think we manifest a judgmental attitude in others. Without someone to judge, the judgmental would not be known.

Ricki;
  I don't know exactly what you meant by prayers not being answered but this I do know. There are Christians on this site that do not judge others and accept you for who you are. While it can't take the place of attending a church, it looks like the Lord sent a minister when he sent David. He and the rest may at least be of some comfort. Lord knows, we need it with the mess that is called mainstream Christianity.

Tiff

Quote from: David W. Shelton on February 24, 2007, 06:20:59 PM
Susan invited me to be a part of this forum, and I want to publicly thank her for her friendship and all she's done for our GLBT community. I'm pastor of a small GLBT-affirming church here in Tennessee, and I wanted to start a few threads specifically geared toward the Christian walk.

I know a lot of the members here are of different faiths or of no faith, and Susan and I both respect the difference of opinion regarding our spiritual lives. These posts will reflect my own walk and convictions, and I merely invite anyone to read along and share their own thoughts.

So, without further ado, I want to present the first of what I hope to be many posts here on the forum at susans.org:

---

What an exciting time it is for us at Christian Community Church of Clarksville (http://www.christiancommunityclarksville.com). We've never been more focused on our mission for Clarksville and the surrounding areas than we are right now. Sure, we're small. That's okay!

After all, how many people did it take to change the world? Twelve.

Yes, we're focused. But before I start talking about our mission, I want to take a minute to apologize. I'm sorry, dear friends. I'm sorry that the church (in general, not just us) has failed to minister to so many of you who are hungry for real, genuine fellowship. I'm sorry that we've been hypocritical. We're sorry for being a bunch of self-righteous, judgmental bastards. We've pointed fingers. We've gossiped. God knows that this goes on about anywhere you can imagine.

And yes, I'm lumping CCC-Clarksville in that mass group of churches. You see, we're all part of the body of Christ. It's not a mass collection of individual churches that we have here in Clarksville. We're all part of the same body, the same baptism, the same faith. We have ONE Lord. Some of our brethren are quick to condemn, quick to judge, and quick to point fingers. And that affects all of us. And for that, I sincerely apologize.

This is a new day. It's a new morning where the snow is still on the ground, and our eyes are fixed squarely on one thing: Jesus. So what is our focus? It's simple. We are focused on loving people, giving you a Christian church home where you can grow, be loved, sit on the sidelines, or get involved. We're all in this thing together. All we need is YOU.

Okay, so you don't live here in Clarksville. Perfect. Faith is a personal thing for everyone, and I invite anyone to participate on the discussion here. The message that I'll share is simple: GRACE. I believe it's for everyone, no matter who you are, or who you love.

Hello David.  I like you.

When people ask me what faith I am, the only honest response I can ever seem to come up with is "I'm a devout Human."  I am in love with humanity.  Good people. Good, honest, loving, forgiving, beautiful people make my heart sing.  I've never felt the need to declare myself a follower of any particular religion.  I'll wave the flag of every country, bear the symbol of every faith.  I believe it's my duty to challenge people through my dress (I am partial to piercings, tattoos, and gothic styles) and personality.  I try hard to be a walking example of not judging a book by its cover.

I intend, however, to study scripture and Christianity next semester.  I would like to be able to consider myself a Christian, if only in the sense that I follow the teachings and idealogies demonstrated to us by His son, our lord and savior, Jesus Christ.  Just as I hold the teachings of Gautama Buddha and the Four Noble Truths in high esteem.  Just as I weep at the words of great men of the more recent past, such as Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi.  I am moved by all things that point towards the true nature of humanity; compassion, preservation and fellowship.  Violence, war, ignorance and hatred are perversions, I believe.

I also believe that God, the source of all life, exists at the center of the universe, among other things.

That's beside the point, though.  I would just like to say that you have my respect, and while many Christians (and other religious fundamentalists) have sown more suffering than I care to contemplate, I would be a true hypocrite if I was to judge them all based on this.  Welcome.

And thank you.

~ Blair

P.S.  I have a question.  Regarding my transition, my mother has said very plainly, "I don't believe God makes mistakes."  Of course, I haven't really had the patience to argue with her lately, but I have to ask, what would you say to her in response to this?  I'm very curious.

I dont really have anything overly meaningful to say here accept welcome aboard...

Personaly I have little to no use for organised religion in any form accept as a subject to write about in song. Usualy (Allways?) protraid as evil.  But I am actualy a highly spiritual person,  I have my own way of believeing and thats good enough for me  :)

Im glad someone of your position is willing to come on here and atleast try (if you can make it past the bashing gauntlet) to help out others on this site that have managed to maintain there faith as such.  Its a daunting undertakeing in my mind and one Im glad someone stepped up to the plate to take a swing at.  I can often be found in #Chat if you ever care to join us there and if you ever manage the time Id love to have some theological discussions with you.  As I said Im spiritual but not religious and I think it would be very interesting to actualy speak with a minister? rather than your avrage believer. :)

Enjoy your stay and thanks in advance for any good you manage to bring to those who are watching.

Quote from: Blair on February 28, 2007, 01:20:17 AM
When people ask me what faith I am, the only honest response I can ever seem to come up with is "I'm a devout Human."  I am in love with humanity.  Good people. Good, honest, loving, forgiving, beautiful people make my heart sing.  I've never felt the need to declare myself a follower of any particular religion.  I'll wave the flag of every country, bear the symbol of every faith.  I believe it's my duty to challenge people through my dress (I am partial to piercings, tattoos, and gothic styles) and personality.  I try hard to be a walking example of not judging a book by its cover.

I intend, however, to study scripture and Christianity next semester.  I would like to be able to consider myself a Christian, if only in the sense that I follow the teachings and idealogies demonstrated to us by His son, our lord and savior, Jesus Christ.  Just as I hold the teachings of Gautama Buddha and the Four Noble Truths in high esteem.  Just as I weep at the words of great men of the more recent past, such as Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi.  I am moved by all things that point towards the true nature of humanity; compassion, preservation and fellowship.  Violence, war, ignorance and hatred are perversions, I believe.

I also believe that God, the source of all life, exists at the center of the universe, among other things.

That's beside the point, though.  I would just like to say that you have my respect, and while many Christians (and other religious fundamentalists) have sown more suffering than I care to contemplate, I would be a true hypocrite if I was to judge them all based on this.  Welcome.

And thank you.

~ Blair

P.S.  I have a question.  Regarding my transition, my mother has said very plainly, "I don't believe God makes mistakes."  Of course, I haven't really had the patience to argue with her lately, but I have to ask, what would you say to her in response to this?  I'm very curious.

Thank you for your welcome, Blair. I absolutely adore the messages of Dr. King and Ghandhi. I will probably be studying them even more over the next few years. Their overall message of love even when they are put in to a position where they must speak out against the prevailing society of oppression.

Sadly, much of the evangelical and fundamentalist church has become the oppressor today. Our tiny church has to speak its message of quiet love amidst the hordes who are screaming "hate the sin, love the sinner," as if being GLBT was some horrible sin in and of itself.

Does God make mistakes? That all depends on whether or not one believes that transgender people were simply given mistaken gender. For a lot of evangelical/fundamentalist people, they hold up Scripture which says that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made" in our mothers' wombs. This naturally presents a dilemma for those of us who have to work through issues of sexual orientation or gender identity.

Is it possible that He makes mistakes? Well, me made mosquitoes... and I'm still trying to figure out that silly platypus. Was He stoned then? Like Robin Williams once said... it's as if God said, "let's piss off Darwin... here's a beaver with a duck's bill that lays eggs. HAH!"

I don't think He makes mistakes. I really don't. I think... and this is just my opinion... that God creates the very small percentage of us who are GLBT, not to test our own mettle (as some claim) but to challenge the prevailing system that limits God in their own tiny box of legalism.

I'm reminded of the Pharisees who asked Christ, "who sinned, this blind man, or his parents?" They were of the same mentality of many legalists today. They thought that a person's birth defect was not a mistake, but rather because of some unconfessed sin in the lives of the parents or even of the child.

Christ's response was one that I think is worth echoing: "Neither. He was made blind to show the glory of God." He then proceeded to miraculously heal the blind man's eyes, on the Sabbath even. The Pharisees weren't impressed, though. They wanted to arrest Jesus for "working" on the Sabbath.

People will see what they want to see. Jesus opened the eyes of one man, and revealed the blindness of others. I don't think for a second, though, that transgenderism is a mistake or a defect by any means... it just is.

What if those of us who are GLBT are here to reveal the blindness of those around us? What if God's plan all along was for us to challenge the system of hate and oppression... just by existing? The question of transgenderism literally forces legalistic people to question their own beliefs.

Now what happens when those of us who are GLBT are shown to be living happy, normal, well-adjusted lives? What happens when a TG person completes their transition, thus curing their GID? It throws everything that a legalist believes into the blender. Instead of gawking at our misery, they're faced with puzzlement at our content.

And that's no mistake.

Quote from: Susan on February 27, 2007, 10:01:17 PM

Quote from: Brianna on February 27, 2007, 09:17:21 AM
It made me come to a strong conclusion that God is just a lie, and the people that believe in him do so out of psychological need and projection. This belief is absolutely as valid, and should be respected - especially since it's based on evidence and not something unprovable - like faith.

But with no God(s) there can be no spirituality. Thus someone who felt that way reallly should have no reason to be in here bashing other people's faith. Right or wrong?

I think you're right, Susan. I was raised atheist and remain so. Not adamantly so, as in opposition to people who believe in god. It's just not my family's thing. As such, it's also not my inclination to criticize a faith in god for those who were raised differently or who choose to believe differently. I will quite happily bash fundies who think they should be telling others how to live, but that isn't inherent with a belief in god. There are non-believers who are bigots as well. The fundies just use their church as justification for it.

I've had friends and people I liked who were christians, jews, muslims, sikhs and buddhists. There are also people I dislike in any stratum of society. Judgmentalism isn't purely a christian trait.

That said, welcome to the forums Mr. Shelton. An open heart and an open mind are refreshing qualities in any person.

Dennis

Quote from: David W. Shelton on February 28, 2007, 06:50:25 AM

Does God make mistakes? That all depends on whether or not one believes that transgender people were simply given mistaken gender. For a lot of evangelical/fundamentalist people, they hold up Scripture which says that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made" in our mothers' wombs. This naturally presents a dilemma for those of us who have to work through issues of sexual orientation or gender identity.

Is it possible that He makes mistakes? Well, me made mosquitoes... and I'm still trying to figure out that silly platypus. Was He stoned then? Like Robin Williams once said... it's as if God said, "let's piss off Darwin... here's a beaver with a duck's bill that lays eggs. HAH!"

I don't think He makes mistakes. I really don't. I think... and this is just my opinion... that God creates the very small percentage of us who are GLBT, not to test our own mettle (as some claim) but to challenge the prevailing system that limits God in their own tiny box of legalism.

I'm reminded of the Pharisees who asked Christ, "who sinned, this blind man, or his parents?" They were of the same mentality of many legalists today. They thought that a person's birth defect was not a mistake, but rather because of some unconfessed sin in the lives of the parents or even of the child.

Christ's response was one that I think is worth echoing: "Neither. He was made blind to show the glory of God." He then proceeded to miraculously heal the blind man's eyes, on the Sabbath even. The Pharisees weren't impressed, though. They wanted to arrest Jesus for "working" on the Sabbath.

People will see what they want to see. Jesus opened the eyes of one man, and revealed the blindness of others. I don't think for a second, though, that transgenderism is a mistake or a defect by any means... it just is.

What if those of us who are GLBT are here to reveal the blindness of those around us? What if God's plan all along was for us to challenge the system of hate and oppression... just by existing? The question of transgenderism literally forces legalistic people to question their own beliefs.

Now what happens when those of us who are GLBT are shown to be living happy, normal, well-adjusted lives? What happens when a TG person completes their transition, thus curing their GID? It throws everything that a legalist believes into the blender. Instead of gawking at our misery, they're faced with puzzlement at our content.

And that's no mistake.

David,

My personal thought has been that the transgendered community exists to help the sexes understand each other.

Afterall, who better to be a mediator than someone who has literally walked in the shoes of both?

Chaunte

Quote from: Chaunte on February 28, 2007, 06:22:55 PM
David,

My personal thought has been that the transgendered community exists to help the sexes understand each other.

Afterall, who better to be a mediator than someone who has literally walked in the shoes of both?

Chaunte

Simply brilliant! Thank you.

Welcome to Susan's place David. I am relatively new here, but this is my favorite place on the net. It feels quite nice being around so many open, honest and caring people. In the short time I have been here I feel I have made some friends that will be friends forever, including Susan herself.

I love that you are a Pastor - as I am a Christian. I sincerely look forward to reading more of your posts.

thanx david for sharing your views.  personally i don't believe in god or any religions as they\'re currently [presented by humanity]. the more I learn about religion, the more it becomes clear that religious believers lack commonsense, logic and intelligence.
religion itself has inflicted [terrible horrors] on humanity, so much so, that it's difficult to believe and understand why any [decent moral person] could believe in god or have religious beliefs.
current evidence proves conclusively that [god and the bible] are both [fakes]. there is not one single matter discussed in the bible out of the many thousands of issues raised that has been proven true, yet many matters have been proven false. you don't really need to be a rocket scientist to deduce with practically 100% certainty that god and the bible are fake.
for me the bible is a very [dangerous book]. it\'s the biggest [load of lies] and codswallop ever [written by man], and i'm sure it will go down in history as the greatest load of [gobbledygook] ever to inflict such [traumatic mental and physical damage on humanity], but still today, some people sadly believe the bible to be true. that's very sad indeed. very sad.
if religious people are unable to apply [commonsense and logic] to develop a simple moral code to live by, then perhaps they could strip out of the bible the evil, murders, rapes, abuse, and all [traumatic] references. granted there will not be a lot left to read, but at least religious people may end up with a decent moral code to follow based on good, and not scare the living daylights out of [innocent] people.
i thank you very much for taking the time to post your ideas, yet i\'m afraid it won\'t make any difference on how i view christianity, god or the bible.

Quote from: David W. Shelton on February 28, 2007, 06:50:25 AM

Thank you for your welcome, Blair. I absolutely adore the messages of Dr. King and Ghandhi. I will probably be studying them even more over the next few years. Their overall message of love even when they are put in to a position where they must speak out against the prevailing society of oppression.

Sadly, much of the evangelical and fundamentalist church has become the oppressor today. Our tiny church has to speak its message of quiet love amidst the hordes who are screaming "hate the sin, love the sinner," as if being GLBT was some horrible sin in and of itself.

Does God make mistakes? That all depends on whether or not one believes that transgender people were simply given mistaken gender. For a lot of evangelical/fundamentalist people, they hold up Scripture which says that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made" in our mothers' wombs. This naturally presents a dilemma for those of us who have to work through issues of sexual orientation or gender identity.

Is it possible that He makes mistakes? Well, me made mosquitoes... and I'm still trying to figure out that silly platypus. Was He stoned then? Like Robin Williams once said... it's as if God said, "let's piss off Darwin... here's a beaver with a duck's bill that lays eggs. HAH!"

I don't think He makes mistakes. I really don't. I think... and this is just my opinion... that God creates the very small percentage of us who are GLBT, not to test our own mettle (as some claim) but to challenge the prevailing system that limits God in their own tiny box of legalism.

I'm reminded of the Pharisees who asked Christ, "who sinned, this blind man, or his parents?" They were of the same mentality of many legalists today. They thought that a person's birth defect was not a mistake, but rather because of some unconfessed sin in the lives of the parents or even of the child.

Christ's response was one that I think is worth echoing: "Neither. He was made blind to show the glory of God." He then proceeded to miraculously heal the blind man's eyes, on the Sabbath even. The Pharisees weren't impressed, though. They wanted to arrest Jesus for "working" on the Sabbath.

People will see what they want to see. Jesus opened the eyes of one man, and revealed the blindness of others. I don't think for a second, though, that transgenderism is a mistake or a defect by any means... it just is.

What if those of us who are GLBT are here to reveal the blindness of those around us? What if God's plan all along was for us to challenge the system of hate and oppression... just by existing? The question of transgenderism literally forces legalistic people to question their own beliefs.

Now what happens when those of us who are GLBT are shown to be living happy, normal, well-adjusted lives? What happens when a TG person completes their transition, thus curing their GID? It throws everything that a legalist believes into the blender. Instead of gawking at our misery, they're faced with puzzlement at our content.

And that's no mistake.

Yes, those are essentially my thoughts as well.  I have always considered myself more of a test for the emotional intelligence and maturity of the people around me by being transsexual.  I pretty much dedicate my life to affecting as many people as possible in a positive way, really.  My father always told me it's proper etiquette to leave the campsite cleaner than when you found it.  So that's what I intend to do, on a global scale.  It's just...  polite.

Cheers, David!

~ Blair

Quote from: Katia on March 01, 2007, 02:39:39 AM
thanx david for sharing your views.  personally i don't believe in god or any religions as they\'re currently [presented by humanity]. the more I learn about religion, the more it becomes clear that religious believers lack commonsense, logic and intelligence.
religion itself has inflicted [terrible horrors] on humanity, so much so, that it's difficult to believe and understand why any [decent moral person] could believe in god or have religious beliefs.
current evidence proves conclusively that [god and the bible] are both [fakes]. there is not one single matter discussed in the bible out of the many thousands of issues raised that has been proven true, yet many matters have been proven false. you don't really need to be a rocket scientist to deduce with practically 100% certainty that god and the bible are fake.
for me the bible is a very [dangerous book]. it\'s the biggest [load of lies] and codswallop ever [written by man], and i'm sure it will go down in history as the greatest load of [gobbledygook] ever to inflict such [traumatic mental and physical damage on humanity], but still today, some people sadly believe the bible to be true. that's very sad indeed. very sad.
if religious people are unable to apply [commonsense and logic] to develop a simple moral code to live by, then perhaps they could strip out of the bible the evil, murders, rapes, abuse, and all [traumatic] references. granted there will not be a lot left to read, but at least religious people may end up with a decent moral code to follow based on good, and not scare the living daylights out of [innocent] people.
i thank you very much for taking the time to post your ideas, yet i\'m afraid it won\'t make any difference on how i view christianity, god or the bible.

That's really unfortunate.  I find theology fascinating, personally, and whether or not the Bible is a crock of silly fairy tales is beside the point, I think.  There's so many flavors of christianity to choose from, all with shocking differences, and oftentimes, an absoloutely absurd loathing for one another (Catholics versus protestants, for example).  Unitarians I tend to find particularily interesting, really, but they're often mocked (for giving other religions a respectful nod.)  Though I'm just prattling about something I don't have any sort of substantial knowledge of.  It's like my best friend and roommate often says on the topic:

"I just think Jesus was a really cool dude, and wanted everyone else to be cool too."

Isn't that a message for the 21st century?  I think people should really internalize it.  "Be cool."

I like it.  Be cool.  Relax.  Count to ten.  Don't count down from ten, though.

~ Blair

Quotethanx david for sharing your views.  personally i don't believe in god or any religions as they\'re currently [presented by humanity]. the more I learn about religion, the more it becomes clear that religious believers lack commonsense, logic and intelligence.
religion itself has inflicted [terrible horrors] on humanity, so much so, that it's difficult to believe and understand why any [decent moral person] could believe in god or have religious beliefs.
current evidence proves conclusively that [god and the bible] are both [fakes]. there is not one single matter discussed in the bible out of the many thousands of issues raised that has been proven true, yet many matters have been proven false. you don't really need to be a rocket scientist to deduce with practically 100% certainty that god and the bible are fake.
for me the bible is a very [dangerous book]. it\'s the biggest [load of lies] and codswallop ever [written by man], and i'm sure it will go down in history as the greatest load of [gobbledygook] ever to inflict such [traumatic mental and physical damage on humanity], but still today, some people sadly believe the bible to be true. that's very sad indeed. very sad.
if religious people are unable to apply [commonsense and logic] to develop a simple moral code to live by, then perhaps they could strip out of the bible the evil, murders, rapes, abuse, and all [traumatic] references. granted there will not be a lot left to read, but at least religious people may end up with a decent moral code to follow based on good, and not scare the living daylights out of [innocent] people.
i thank you very much for taking the time to post your ideas, yet i\'m afraid it won\'t make any difference on how i view christianity, god or the bible.

Try not to be as closed minded as many, but still not most, christians are.
I've read the bible, and know what's in there. Hell; I've read it over five times. The truth is: Yes, it was written by people. And people make mistakes. Yes, religion is of the people, and yes, people will try to abuse it, when they need to.
Take the Hebrews. The Hebrews were, at first, at war with.. Oh, everyone. They were travelling around, attacking other people, for oases, other people's goats, other people's people, and cities.
Their JHWH was a volcano God. A god of war. A god that smote the unbelievers. A god for the people.
Then came the whole Babylon deal. Babylon was kind of pissed off at those people waging wars on everyone. They captured the hebrews, and brought them into slavery. And here, religious leaders got thinking. About the world. Genesis was written, a book that looks as though it's solely about how everything came to exist, but there's a lot more to genesis than just that. It offered the reason for their babylonian oppressor to act as it has done.
Cain was in Nod for the murder on his brother. A murder commited because of envy, jealousy. God couldn't have with that, and sent the man to Nod, the place for contemplation. Only after Cain had spent a long time there, on his spiritual journey of contemplation, was Cain allowed to enter the World. Not paradise, not Eden, not the place his parents lived, but the World. And in the world, he met a woman, and started a new life.
Well, the Canaanites committed murder, aswell. And Babylon was their Nod. And from that moment on, the religion started to change. Suddenly, JHWH became benevolent, kind, loving, all knowing. Not the smiting child he was before that.
And yes, when Christianity arose, or better yet, shortly after, many mistakes have again been made. But it's not too late to see the lands Nod shining just over the horizon.

Because it's PEOPLE who do this sort of thing. It's not religion; religion is merely abused; it's their excuse to go around doing stupid things, things that harm others. But religion itself didn't do it. It was people who did. But the people who didn't need not be condemned to Nod like the people who did. Because the people who didn't know better.

All in all: There are sides to this story, sides to this opinion. But if you don't wish to be harmed because of your opinion, you'll have to be able to try and respect the opinions of others. Provided these opinions aren't harmful. Beneficial opinions should be sanctified, no matter what religion gave birth to them.

Quote from: togetherwecan on February 28, 2007, 08:41:28 PM
Welcome to Susan's place David. I am relatively new here, but this is my favorite place on the net. It feels quite nice being around so many open, honest and caring people. In the short time I have been here I feel I have made some friends that will be friends forever, including Susan herself.

I love that you are a Pastor - as I am a Christian. I sincerely look forward to reading more of your posts.

Thank you for your welcome, together. I'm truly honored that so many have taken the time to welcome a nut like me, but in this world, I think we've all got to be a little nuts.

I see what you mean about the people on here. The TG people I've meet have consistently been the most self-aware, honest, down-to-earth, and genuine people that I've known. When I compare the over-the-top drama that I see with some elements of the GLBT community with the quiet resourcefulness of those who are transgender, it's a clear difference.

Susan and I have gotten to know each other on a personal level for quite some time in the last couple of years as well. My partner and I both love Susan very much, and she shares our love for sci-fi and great conversations. The fact that Susan is as much as an activist as I am, if not more, makes our friendship really beneficial. I count her friendship as one of the high points of my life, and I'm honored to know her.

Quote from: Katia on March 01, 2007, 02:39:39 AM
thanx david for sharing your views.  personally i don't believe in god or any religions as they\'re currently [presented by humanity]. the more I learn about religion, the more it becomes clear that religious believers lack commonsense, logic and intelligence.
religion itself has inflicted [terrible horrors] on humanity, so much so, that it's difficult to believe and understand why any [decent moral person] could believe in god or have religious beliefs.
current evidence proves conclusively that [god and the bible] are both [fakes]. there is not one single matter discussed in the bible out of the many thousands of issues raised that has been proven true, yet many matters have been proven false. you don't really need to be a rocket scientist to deduce with practically 100% certainty that god and the bible are fake.
for me the bible is a very [dangerous book]. it\'s the biggest [load of lies] and codswallop ever [written by man], and i'm sure it will go down in history as the greatest load of [gobbledygook] ever to inflict such [traumatic mental and physical damage on humanity], but still today, some people sadly believe the bible to be true. that's very sad indeed. very sad.
if religious people are unable to apply [commonsense and logic] to develop a simple moral code to live by, then perhaps they could strip out of the bible the evil, murders, rapes, abuse, and all [traumatic] references. granted there will not be a lot left to read, but at least religious people may end up with a decent moral code to follow based on good, and not scare the living daylights out of [innocent] people.
i thank you very much for taking the time to post your ideas, yet i\'m afraid it won\'t make any difference on how i view christianity, god or the bible.

Katia, I respect your opinion regarding the Bible and Christianity. I have no intention of trying to change your mind. However, I have to ask if it's wise to lump all religious believers in the same lump as those who lack "commonsense, logic, and intelligence."

From what I have seen, there are several wonderful TG people who have become content in their spiritual lives here. I would hardly call them dumb, illogical, or lacking in common sense. Their journeys are almost always replete with challenges and spiritual crises. These are the kind of crises that they (and I) believe that their faith brings them through.

So while I respect your views that Christians and other religious people are all a bunch of self-righteous bastards, and even apologize for them... I ask you to look for those of faith who represent the ideal, the inspired, the logical, and the sensible. Look for the positive, even of those of us who have faith. We don't have to agree, but we can... and should... learn to understand each other.

In the end, I understand your frustration and resentment. We can, however, learn to understand each other. Just because you think the Bible is the biggest load of lies or gobbledygook out there, doesn't mean you can't appreciate some of the finer points and principles that it presents amidst the "lies" and "gobbledygook."

Look for the good in all things; and you'll find it. Look for the bad... well, you'll find that too.

Quote from: David W. Shelton on March 01, 2007, 06:51:39 AM

just because you think the Bible is the biggest load of lies or gobbledygook out there, doesn't mean you can't appreciate some of the finer points and principles that it presents amidst the "lies" and "gobbledygook."

Look for the good in all things; and you'll find it. Look for the bad... well, you'll find that too.

the bible. used as [law] by some, considered [art] by others. to me, the bible is a compilations of stories which were passed through oral tradition, some of them readjusted to characters and beliefs of the time when was written. [religious syncretism]
there are clear proofs of that. for instance, [noah's arc history]: a vase with more than 10000 years, and with [ganesha] as the main character, was found. the story was [identical], and so on, and so on.
many ideas present in the bible [all of the books] show clearly a tendency to convey the ideas of that time. like women [must have a secondary role], and [men short hair].

since i don't like religious books which are [deprived of deep philosophy], the bible is [meaningless to me]. it has laws, it has advices, it has dogmas, but it fails to teach a very important thing: [to awaken answers within you]; im sure you have heard the famous advice: accept and don't question.. (how great it's that... ;))
many people try to adjust the bible and religious books to new discoveries, while others dont even try. i say, you only do that if you are [pretty lost]. The [heart and the human condition are and will be the only source of knowledge].

Want [my own bible]? try to discover about yourself, challenge yourself, and do always your best. believe me, you will be doing much more than most people do during their whole lives.  good luck!

David i wanted to share my thoughts concerning

Quotedoes God make mistakes.

It took me years to try and understand why the world works the way it does and i do not undertsand it but i had to come up with some sort of thesis for me to understand it.
here goes:
I think that God created the most perfect and imperfect aspect of what anything living could be and then turned the creation into an explosion or growth..
By creating it in a perfect vision but then letting go to allow what i would call nature to take over his creation blossomed.. This the crux to me is when things went seriosuly right and also went seriosuly wrong.  His intentions i have no clue, i do not necessarily think of it as something like a test for me or ts' or disabled people, etc.  (my thinking only) but rather just the way that nature and the world have grown and developed.
Good things and bad things happen and co-exist.
How does one explain miracles of life and giving yet horrors of disease and death.
again just my own personal theory but i truly believe God gave himself power over all these things but only exercises enough intervention when and where needed but not always?
I relay this thinking to my angels and when there were times where bad things could of and very well should of happened to me they were there!  alas not everything goes perfectly and Lord knows i've had my share of bad times as well.....(and yes i fear my angels were there watching as well)
This thinking like for examaple... a baby is born and dies within days of some complication, a shame a travesty for a mother to have carried a child and then to have lost it...then in the same lifetime a murderer or child molester is allowed to comit crimes and the most cruelest of acts against a child?  One would ask where is the justice?
Not in this lifetime is my thinking and answer...
I was asked before by a friend when i had said do not worry their judgement day will come and he said do you really think God judges, i said without much hesitation yes i do!
I have worked hard in my life to be as accepting as possible as non judgemental as possible and as free spririted as possible and to try and not be a hypocrit!
I know i am born human and frail and i will fail and i will sin, i do sin.  I am at one with my God because so far my sins i do not feel are sins of an order in which my God will be too harsh with me.  I watch this ugly world we live in (yes i find beauty and good people in it too) and quietly pass by bad people and bad events knowing in my heart there will, there must be a time of equalness and retribution...
I ask for so little in my next life.. Wholeness of what being i am (spiritual i hope) and peace....
I wish that for you and the people around us.
thanks for reading
Ricki

Hi David
Welcom to the Forum

Does god make mistakes?
I should hope so.  I just hope he learns from his mistakes.

is the bible  a bunch of gobbledygook? No, but I do think people will twist its words at every opportunity to suit their own agenda, be it good, or be it bad.

I think there are many who do not or will not view it from the right perspective. when some problem arises that they don't know how to deal with, they do not go to the bible to seek wisdom. instead they go to the bible seeking condemnation.

Kate Alice

QuoteTake the Hebrews. The Hebrews were, at first, at war with.. Oh, everyone. They were travelling around, attacking other people, for oases, other people's goats, other people's people, and cities.
Their JHWH was a volcano God. A god of war. A god that smote the unbelievers. A god for the people.

There is more than one face of G-d in the old testament. While there are many instances of the angry g-d that you mention, there was also a g-d of love and compassion. The bible was written by various different authors over time, and thus we see multiple variations in the depictions of g-d and histories of events. In the Jewish tradition, there are numerous writings (talmud) about these differences and what they might mean. It is an incomplete assessment of Judaism to only read what the old testament (torah) says, without taking into account these extensive commentaries (talmud).

zythyra

Zythyra, great post.

She is so right about there being different faces of God is the Old Testament.  Theories abound as to who wrote which parts and when.  And in a sense it does not matter so very much.  Theologian Brevard S. Childs helps us understand that what is really most important is that these text were taken as God's word in this particular form, and have thereby influenced the beliefs and faith practices of a particular people.  Therefore, it is vitally important to learn, not just the text, but the interpretation of it.  I have not read the entire Torah (and neither have the vast majority of Jews).  I have read parts of the Mishnah and found it very enlightning as to the history of interpretation.

Peace, Please!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: zythyra on March 05, 2007, 09:47:03 AM

There is more than one face of G-d in the old testament. While there are many instances of the angry g-d that you mention, there was also a g-d of love and compassion. The bible was written by various different authors over time, and thus we see multiple variations in the depictions of g-d and histories of events. In the Jewish tradition, there are numerous writings (talmud) about these differences and what they might mean. It is an incomplete assessment of Judaism to only read what the old testament (torah) says, without taking into account these extensive commentaries (talmud).

zythyra

Yes. Hence the rest of my post.

QuoteTherefore, it is vitally important to learn, not just the text, but the interpretation of it.  I have not read the entire Torah (and neither have the vast majority of Jews).  I have read parts of the Mishnah and found it very enlightning as to the history of interpretation.

I sure haven't read the entire thing! One of the things that I like about Judaism is that every single opinion matters. Both dissenting and agreeing. We don't just take the Rabbi's word for it.

QuoteYes. Hence the rest of my post.

Yes, you did point out the change from one to the other.

A few years ago I read an interesting outlook on the story of Abraham, saying that perhaps g-d didn't tell Abraham to kill his son, and it was only when g-d said to not kill him, that was the voice of g-d, all the previous was the voice of Abraham's mind... Certainly many people (of all religions) interpret the texts to suit what they want them to say...

zythyra