Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Since this is the Arghhh! forum I thought this section would be appropriate.

Why are some of you giving me negative reputation for simply defending the contributions that I made for years to the post-op community? On a site I spent many years on and gave much to? Over 2500 posts in all.

The 2nd negative rep comment mentioned rudeness. What is rude is taking a post out of context and viewing only one side, then attacking the other side which you know nothing of. The person doing so does not know the context, as they are new and simply slams people in ignorance.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Val, I'm a big supporter, to be honest, because I think that labels are an inherently bad thing.  But this

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 06:26:34 PM
So you do not want a vagina? That is certainly your choice. No one should have surgery who does not need it.

This is the post-op forum, so those that are here in this forum chose surgery to have their body be congruent, want and need a female body. It is Male to Female. A vagina. A penis does not belong on a woman as it is a male appendage, male genital. That is what I did and many thousands of others have done.

is the same thing.  You're putting a label on people who don't feel that they need or feel that they can't get SRS: not women.  I am getting it, but why would my identity be any different if I weren't?

Trust me, I believe a number of things you're saying, and I find many of your posts helpful, but can't say I was happy about this one.

The whole reputation system needs to be scrapped  it is highly divisive.    People in a bad mood lash out at others.  My last negative point was given to me by a member who was very angry and upset by another and I was the one slapped in the face.    I gave another member a negative rep out of sheep petulance - which is very uncharacteristic of me but when you have a way of throwing your weight around most people cannot resist the temptation.
Also those with high reputation scores might not be what they seem for two reasons.   They are long term members that don't post much and were given rep points for length of membership.  This is likely to confuse and mislead new members who haven't developed a feel for the forum. *  Secondly, perhaps it is the cynic in me but I can help thinking that high reputation members are simply more concerned with being liked than expressing themselves.   I was tempted to go down the 'isn't everyone marvelous' route but decided against it.


* When I was 'Princess of Cups' I was given 26 points just for being a two year member, even though I had under 200 posts.

I guess what many people are saying is that Male To Female has lost its meaning these days? Thats all I'm saying underneath it all.

I make a distinction between identity and the body. A person can be a woman and female inside, there is no disagreement there. I have always felt the same as everyone else there.  But there is such a thing as physical transition of the body. There is such a thing as a vagina and a penis. Prior to transition, a person is a woman inside, but their body is not externally. Some argue that point, which is certainly their right. But I have a right to express the physical transition. That a person has a penis which is removed through surgery. That is what I have consistently said the past year.

Maybe the site needs to examine renaming the MTF and FTM forums to something else since this is so controversial. Why have them? Just merge them into one. According to the dissenters, what is MTF and FTM anyway?

Valerie, there are some trans who are non op who consider themselves just as much a woman as any other trans. And their convictions are just as real and valid as anyone else.

I find it strangely and sadly ironic that some of us can actually point at a non op and say "you're not a real or full woman because you have a penis" when a VAST majority of the world points their fingers and says the very same thing to you and me and any other trans variant person on this planet.

The days of judging gender identification based on whether they have a penis or a vagina is, thankfully, becoming old news. It's just so condemning and judgmental to base who is a real girl trans and who isn't based on if they had their penis replaced or not and I'm happy to see that trend slowly die out.

My opinion is this. I could care less what is between a persons legs. If that person says they are male or they are female, I am THE LAST person to be judging them or saying that they are wrong. I find it hypocritical to see a transsexual (any transsexual) put gender identity rule sets on another person who has different views than them.

But it's your belief and you are certainly more than happy to have it and cherish it. 

I'll keep on fighting for everyone's right to be accepted as who they are and I find labels to be as outdated as the Members Only Jackets that was sold in Sears back in 1983.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 07:43:09 PM
I guess what many people are saying is that Male To Female has lost its meaning these days? Thats all I'm saying underneath it all.

I make a distinction between identity and the body. A person can be a woman and female inside, there is no disagreement there. I have always felt the same as everyone else there.  But there is such a thing as physical transition of the body. There is such a thing as a vagina and a penis. Prior to transition, a person is a woman inside, but their body is not externally. Some argue that point, which is certainly their right. But I have a right to express the physical transition. That a person has a penis which is removed through surgery. That is what I have consistently said the past year.

Maybe the site needs to examine renaming the MTF and FTM forums to something else since this is so controversial. Why have them? Just merge them into one. According to the dissenters, what is MTF and FTM anyway?

Still, that argument suggests that someone who completes transition without surgery isn't "as much of an [identified sex]" as someone who did get surgery.  That's not a fair assumption.

I don't think anyone would suggest that you don't have a right to express your happiness with your anatomy.  You've transitioned about as far as anyone can and that's great.  I'm going to be joining you among the ranks of others who were able to do similarly, and the thought is exciting and wonderful for me.  That doesn't mean I'm going to dewomanize someone who isn't able or willing to get SRS (from a MtF perspective), suggestion that someone's body is not a woman's body included.

As much as I find the "physical birth defect" argument distasteful, if you're a man or woman or androgyne or neutrois, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks about your genitals or your breasts or your face or much of anything, it's still - from one's own perspective - a man's body, a woman's body, an androgyne's body, a neutrois body.

I don't think it has anything to do with the MtF or FtM communities or anything regarding the "controversiality" of current trans orthodoxy.  If you don't identify as transgender (and, personally, I have problems with the term, so you're not alone), that's your business and nobody should be allowed to dictate to you the terms by which you should call yourself.  Of course, by that token, you can't tell people that their bodies aren't women's bodies because they haven't had "the surgery" (which, since for many, it's not "the surgery" because they never get it, and to insinuate it makes them lesser isn't right).  It's a matter of not placing indelible labels on a person that doesn't agree with your specific ideas.

I'm not comfortable with a lot of terms that legitimately aren't intended to be used hatefully. "Girl" is one example, but I'm not going to brand someone as bigoted because they don't understand my specific preferences with regards to the labels I choose to appropriate.  Likewise, feel free to feel that you are woman foremost, forgoing the terms transgender or trans or trans* or even transsexual, but don't prevent others from having their own labels they apply to themselves, and don't denigrate their choices.

That's really all.

Quote from: Annah on October 14, 2011, 07:57:01 PM
Valerie, there are some trans who are non op who consider themselves just as much a woman as any other trans. And their convictions are just as real and valid as anyone else.

I find it strangely and sadly ironic that some of us can actually point at a non op and say "you're not a real or full woman because you have a penis" when a VAST majority of the world points their fingers and says the very same thing to you and me and any other trans variant person on this planet.

The days of judging gender identification based on whether they have a penis or a vagina is, thankfully, becoming old news. It's just so condemning and judgmental to base who is a real girl trans and who isn't based on if they had their penis replaced or not and I'm happy to see that trend slowly die out.

My opinion is this. I could care less what is between a persons legs. If that person says they are male or they are female, I am THE LAST person to be judging them or saying that they are wrong. I find it hypocritical to see a transsexual (any transsexual) put gender identity rule sets on another person who has different views than them.

But it's your belief and you are certainly more than happy to have it and cherish it. 

I'll keep on fighting for everyone's right to be accepted as who they are and I find labels to be as outdated as the Members Only Jackets that was sold in Sears back in 1983.

This, with annotations.

It's so easy for bigots to change "you're not a real or full woman because you have a penis" to "you're not a real or full woman because you had a penis".  It's good to remember that.

Labels aren't a cool thing, and make sure to mind that while your labels may be valid for you, others may have differing labels and beliefs and everyone should respect them.

because those you give you that "smite" feel as though they are superior to everyone else........when in fact, they are not.  some feel as though they have to be a "mother" to everyone on here.
Some, just like to smite everybody!

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 06:26:34 PM
Since this is the Arghhh! forum I thought this section would be appropriate.

Why are some of you giving me negative reputation for simply defending the contributions that I made for years to the post-op community? On a site I spent many years on and gave much to? Over 2500 posts in all.

The 2nd negative rep comment mentioned rudeness. What is rude is taking a post out of context and viewing only one side, then attacking the other side which you know nothing of. The person doing so does not know the context, as they are new and simply slams people in ignorance.

You should be ashamed of yourselves.

woo hoo!! very well said!! woo hoo!

Quote from: Annah on October 14, 2011, 07:57:01 PM
My opinion is this. I could care less what is between a persons legs. If that person says they are male or they are female, I am THE LAST person to be judging them or saying that they are wrong. I find it hypocritical to see a transsexual (any transsexual) put gender identity rule sets on another person who has different views than them.

maybe so but you sure as hell are quick (and often) on that smite button

QuoteI find it strangely and sadly ironic that some of us can actually point at a non op and say "you're not a real or full woman because you have a penis" when a VAST majority of the world points their fingers and says the very same thing to you and me and any other trans variant person on this planet.

The days of judging gender identification based on whether they have a penis or a vagina is, thankfully, becoming old news. It's just so condemning and judgmental to base who is a real girl trans and who isn't based on if they had their penis replaced or not and I'm happy to see that trend slowly die out.

I think this is very true. It seems to be an issue more so with older transitioners, maybe they're really angry at society but know arguing amongst themselves they receive an ear, even if it's disagreement, they still get their word in. 

Try and say this out in a public forum (non-trans people) particularly where the posters are over 40 years old, and there will be little argument, just rude and ignorant comments, and no understanding or empathy for transitioners, mtf or ftm. That is the real world. Sad to see the fighting.

Quote from: badkitty on October 14, 2011, 08:08:19 PM
maybe so but you sure as hell are quick (and often) on that smite button

if you would like discuss the ethical/moral and rational decisions of me smiting seven people in the last seven months then PM me about it. This is not the thread for it and I won't be sucked in.

Quote from: Hermione01 on October 14, 2011, 08:10:22 PM
I think this is very true. It seems to be an issue more so with older transitioners, maybe they're really angry at society but know arguing amongst themselves they receive an ear, even if it's disagreement, they still get their word in. 

Try and say this out in a public forum (non-trans people) particularly where the posters are over 40 years old, and there will be little argument, just rude and ignorant comments, and no understanding or empathy for transitioners, mtf or ftm. That is the real world. Sad to see the fighting.

Any community with more than one person is going to have some disagreements and arguments that have the potential to become heated (hell, even some one-person communities have some petty arguments ::) ).  Still, it's true that it's sad to see a community that experiences such external bigotry to have a discussion about who's "real" or "better" and who isn't.  Labels, guys: they're only for yourself and your three-ring binder.

I just figure you give out so many smites because you feel smug in your superiority, and that smugness gives way to condescension to others and your feeling that beyond being in the seminary, you get a change to actually play god and not just study it. 

tekla, who's never smited anyone, ever.

I'm still and will always be at a loss to understand how females have penises.

I understand the idea of identity. I said that clearly in my previous post. I cannot comprehend the notion of denying the physical penis on your body, as much as anyone wants to avoid it, and claiming it is a female body. It is beyond me how you can justify it physically. Without surgery, that is the definition of genderqueer for half transition or crossdresser with no transition.

Quote from: tekla on October 14, 2011, 09:22:54 PM
I just figure you give out so many smites because you feel smug in your superiority, and that smugness gives way to condescension to others and your feeling that beyond being in the seminary, you get a change to actually play god and not just study it. 

tekla, who's never smited anyone, ever.

wow!!! what a freaking awesome comment!! you rock my world!
kudos for no smites!

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 09:32:40 PM
I'm still and will always be at a loss to understand how females have penises.

I understand the idea of identity. I said that clearly in my previous post. I cannot comprehend the notion of denying the physical penis on your body, as much as anyone wants to avoid it, and claiming it is a female body. It is beyond me how you can justify it physically.

Because their identity ain't yours.  Simple as that.

You don't have to understand, you just have to accept.  It's what being trans is all about, after all.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 14, 2011, 09:35:42 PM
Because their identity ain't yours.  Simple as that.

You don't have to understand, you just have to accept.  It's what being trans is all about, after all.

Truly, you believe the trans community is genderqueer? If that is the case, then perhaps those folks should stop using the MTF forum. Did the MTF definition of Male to Female get changed?

Sigh...

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 09:32:40 PM
I'm still and will always be at a loss to understand how females have penises.

I understand the idea of identity. I said that clearly in my previous post. I cannot comprehend the notion of denying the physical penis on your body, as much as anyone wants to avoid it, and claiming it is a female body. It is beyond me how you can justify it physically. Without surgery, that is the definition of genderqueer for half transition or crossdresser with no transition.

Valerie,

You don't have to understand it or even accept it. But you do have to recognize there are people who feel differently than you do about this. Gender identity isn't cookie cutter and its so complicated.

Well okay then.

Goodnight all.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 09:39:49 PM
Truly, you believe the trans community is genderqueer? If that is the case, then perhaps those folks should stop using the MTF forum. Did the MTF definition of Male to Female get changed?

Sigh...

Uh, no.  I believe that people have the right to identify however they want.  So people can identify as male to female even if they don't want or haven't had surgery.  Nobody's "changed the definition" of male to female.

(Also, when did I come close to insinuating that "the trans community" is genderqueer?  I'm actually, literally boggled by that statement.)

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 09:39:49 PM
Truly, you believe the trans community is genderqueer? If that is the case, then perhaps those folks should stop using the MTF forum. Did the MTF definition of Male to Female get changed?

Sigh...

They are still MTF because a Non Op and a Pre ops are still women so if you use Male to Female, then they have gone through the transition of Male to Female.

Most people identify genderqueers as those who are similiar to bi gender or mixing the genders together or not acknowledging one gender or the other. Non Ops and Pre Ops are not genderqueer because Non ops and Pre Ops who identify as women are trans.

Some of us are in a lot of pain over our transitions, and we come here to feel safe with others who understand us. The last thing we need is to have someone here forcing an identity on us.

I know Lily, I'm sorry it has been painful. My transition was painful as well. It took me 4 years to transition. We live a difficult and challenging life.

Good luck on your path. I'm sorry if I caused you any real grief.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 14, 2011, 09:44:09 PM
Uh, no.  I believe that people have the right to identify however they want.  So people can identify as male to female even if they don't want or haven't had surgery.  Nobody's "changed the definition" of male to female.

(Also, when did I come close to insinuating that "the trans community" is genderqueer?  I'm actually, literally boggled by that statement.)

Well, my idea of genderqueer is a mixed body, part male, part female. So permanent half or part transition would be cause of a gender queer body. Isnt that logical? Like a bearded lady is an expression of gender queer. I've seen them. So if someone doesnt remove their body parts (for MTF), they are essentially gender queer or variant externally. part female body with a male penis. You would have breasts with a penis. Nothing wrong with that, but it is logically gender queer or gender odd or variant.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 09:56:33 PM
Well, my idea of genderqueer is a mixed body, part male, part female. So half or part transition would be cause of a gender queer body. Isnt that logical? Like a bearded lady is an expression of gender queer. I've seen them. So if someone doesnt remove their body parts (for MTF), they are essentially gender queer externally. part female body with a male penis. You would have breasts with a penis. Nothing wrong with that, but it is logically gender queer or gender odd or variant.

I mean, it could be genderqueer if they identified at all with genderqueer.  It could also not.  Someone who's "fully" female anatomically might identify with genderqueer too, and their identity is just as legitimate.

The point is that it's about identities and not at all about the physical body, which, again, is what being trans, in any way at all, whether a gender->-bleeped-<- boi or a MtA or an AFAB non-op neutrois or a MtF transsexual, is all about.

Who decides that is trans?

There have been over 100,000 SRS's completed in the past 50 years. I imagine many of those women would disagree with that assessment of what is a transsexual woman being as how they corrected their bodies to be aligned with the female form.

I disagree that just because there is a segment of the population that is gender variant, that they get to decide what trans is. That is my entire objection, at its root. There have been many tens of thousands of binary trans folks. Why does this current popularity with gender variance negate the struggles of tens of thousands of women who have successfully corrected their bodies?

I object to that. On my own behalf and the tens of thousands of women who have gone before me and are living their lives in the binary world. These dissenters do not get to decide what is trans.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 10:11:04 PM
Who decides that is trans?

There have been over 100,000 SRS's completed in the past 50 years. I imagine many of those women would disagree with that assessment of what is a transsexual being as how they corrected their bodies to be aligned with the female form.

I disagree that just because there is a segment of the population that is gender variant, that they get to decide what trans is. That is my entire objection, at its root. There have been many tens of thousands of binary trans folks. Why does this current popularity with gender variance negate the struggles of tens of thousands of women who have successfully corrected their bodies?

I object to that. On my own behalf and the tens of thousands of women who have gone before me and are living their lives in the binary world.

The person themselves decide they are trans when they feel that they are of one gender but born in another gender body.

Gender does not equate to genetalia. If that was the case, the Conservative Right Wingers would have a picnic with us.....even with post ops...cuz they'll say, "That Vagina isn't a real vagina...it's just plastic surgery."

Gender identity is almost brain recognized. Also, the sheer fact that a therapist will "diagnose" a non op as trans is also support through the medical community.

When you state there has been over 100,000 people who have had SRS surgeries, there is probably 50 times more than that who has not gotten surgery, cannot get surgery, or has no desire to get surgery. Those people are also considered trans.

You have to be careful when you say girls who has not gotten their surgeries are genderqueer like bearded ladies, then that leaves interpretation to give other people excuse that you are a man with a vagina that was surgically put it in.

Now, of course, I do not believe you are a man with a vagina but ignorant people could use your arguments against you.

i agree with you 100% Val.......the problem is, people wanna twist and tangle things to coincide with their own agenda.......and this always comes down to the restroom.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 10:11:04 PM
Who decides that is trans?

There have been over 100,000 SRS's completed in the past 50 years. I imagine many of those women would disagree with that assessment of what is a transsexual being as how they corrected their bodies to be aligned with the female form.

I disagree that just because there is a segment of the population that is gender variant, that they get to decide what trans is. That is my entire objection, at its root. There have been many tens of thousands of binary trans folks. Why does this current popularity with gender variance negate the struggles of tens of thousands of women who have successfully corrected their bodies?

I object to that. On my own behalf and the tens of thousands of women who have gone before me and are living their lives in the binary world.

Just because trans* orthodoxy is that gender binary adhesion is not imperative doesn't mean that you can't identify on one pole.  Val, you're talking to someone who identifies pretty squarely on the female pole and, in 220 days, is going to have a body that pretty accurately reflects that.  That doesn't, however, mean that I'm "more woman" than someone for whom the latter isn't the case.

I'm not negating your struggle, I'm asking you not to negate the struggles of others (who may well identify within the gender binary) who don't have the luxury you do.

Hell, in the case of FtMs, factually speaking, there isn't a surgery that conclusively acts as a form-and-function replica like MtF vaginoplasty.  Does that make all trans men "less than" trans women?  Or does that make trans men who don't take "what's there" "not men" because they're "not binary"?

Trans is everything, Val.  You're free not to identify as trans if you don't want, and I won't try to label you as such.  But don't label someone who doesn't identify as genderqueer, or indeed as anything other than "MtF transsexual", as anything beyond what they want.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 14, 2011, 10:19:33 PM
Just because trans* orthodoxy is that gender binary adhesion is not imperative doesn't mean that you can't identify on one pole.  Val, you're talking to someone who identifies pretty squarely on the female pole and, in 220 days, is going to have a body that pretty accurately reflects that.  That doesn't, however, mean that I'm "more woman" than someone for whom the latter isn't the case.

I'm not negating your struggle, I'm asking you not to negate the struggles of others (who may well identify within the gender binary) who don't have the luxury you do.

Hell, in the case of FtMs, factually speaking, there isn't a surgery that conclusively acts as a form-and-function replica like MtF vaginoplasty.  Does that make all trans men "less than" trans women?  Or does that make trans men who don't take "what's there" "not men" because they're "not binary"?

Trans is everything, Val.  You're free not to identify as trans if you don't want, and I won't try to label you as such.  But don't label someone who doesn't identify as genderqueer, or indeed as anything other than "MtF transsexual", as anything beyond what they want.

what she said lol

Quote from: badkitty on October 14, 2011, 10:19:17 PM
i agree with you 100% Val.......the problem is, people wanna twist and tangle things to coincide with their own agenda.......and this always comes down to the restroom.

What does anything in this discussion have to do with restrooms?  This comes down to identities, which, GALS AND GENTS AND GLAMOROUSLY-GENDERED GENTLEPEOPLE, you don't mess with.  It's that erasure that leads to us getting discriminated against.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 14, 2011, 10:23:57 PM
What does anything in this discussion have to do with restrooms?  This comes down to identities, which, GALS AND GENTS AND GLAMOROUSLY-GENDERED GENTLEPEOPLE, you don't mess with.  It's that erasure that leads to us getting discriminated against.

it always comes down to the restroom!

Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 14, 2011, 10:23:57 PM
What does anything in this discussion have to do with restrooms?

no idea

Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 14, 2011, 10:23:57 PM
What does anything in this discussion have to do with restrooms?  This comes down to identities, which, GALS AND GENTS AND GLAMOROUSLY-GENDERED GENTLEPEOPLE, you don't mess with.  It's that erasure that leads to us getting discriminated against.

try telling a pre-op or non-op that they should use the restroom most congruent with their genitalia and see what kind of responses you get!! lol

Respectfully, I dont see that I am messing with anyone. I am saying literally many, many tens of thousands of trans women completed their SRS's. This current popularity of gender variance does not erase those women's struggles or their voices. But because gender variant folk are out and voice their opinion openly, there is a misconception that there not is a strong, very large population of binary women, which there are. You can't simply erase them. One outspoken group of dissenters does not get to decide who and what is trans.

Our discussion is on MTF TS women, which I am qualified to speak about since I was one. I am not qualified to speak on FTM's and their bodies and have never tried. I think I visited their forum once to say hi.

And if you dont think my vagina is real, well... it is.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 10:31:27 PM

And if you dont think my vagina is real, well... it is.

I agree with the above statement wholeheartedly. You're not reading what I posted right.

What we are saying is if you use the argument that genitalia has to be the marker for gender identification only, conservative people could use your argument against you and say you were born with a penis who got it removed to get plastic surgery of a vagina and you are just a man with a vagina.

Womyn Born Womyn uses your same type of beliefs but uses it against every transwoman in their viewpoints of transsexuals....even post op ones.

Quote from: badkitty on October 14, 2011, 10:30:47 PM
try telling a pre-op or non-op that they should use the restroom most congruent with their genitalia and see what kind of responses you get!! lol

Try telling a pre-op or non-op that their identity is less legitimate.

I don't see where you're getting this from, because everything I just said points to people using the restroom coinciding with their identity.  This is literally a non sequitur.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 10:31:27 PM
Respectfully, I dont see that I am messing with anyone. I am saying literally many, many tens of thousands of trans women completed their SRS's. This current popularity of gender variance does not erase those women's struggles or their voices. But because gender variant folk are out and voice their opinion openly, there is a misconception that there not is a strong, very large population of binary women, which there are. You can't simply erase them.

Our discussion is on MTF TS women, which I am qualified to speak about since I was one. I am not qualified to speak on FTM's and their bodies and have never tried.

And if you dont think my vagina is real, well... it is.

Did I ever say it isn't?  Your vagina is just as sam hell real as any other woman's, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

Val, you could identify as a pumpkin for all I care and I wouldn't be judgin'.  All I'm sayin' is that you should let people identify however they want, even if personally your views are a little different.

Misconceptions are stupid and need to die in a hole, and I'm sure there are a bunch of binary-identified women out there, and if you or any one of them want out of the trans community because you feel they aren't reflecting your views, then you're pretty much free to do so, and anyone denying you that right is weird.  Just remember that if you wanna stick around here, you can't go around suggesting other folks' identities aren't legitimate.

GUYS AND LADIES AND PEOPLE IN BETWEEN OR SOMEWHERE ELSE WITH REGARDS TO THEIR GENDER,

Just don't 'other' people because they're non-op.  It's not cool.

Quote from: badkitty on October 14, 2011, 10:27:23 PM
it always comes down to the restroom!

Except when it doesn't.  Like, you know, for 99% of life.

Unless you spend 99% of your life in restrooms?  In which case I guess DIFF'RENT STROKES

I dunno.  I have no idea what the point you're trying to make here is.

I've enjoyed chatting with you girls tonight.

Goodnight.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 10:43:06 PM
I've enjoyed chatting with you girls tonight.

Goodnight.

good night :)

Kia Ora,

::) Does it really matter what's between ones legs or for that matter upon ones chest ?...
If a person looks and acts the part[ ie, tucking and binding ], the only people who might possibly have some concern are oneself and[if one is sexually active] the partner/s one is being intimate with[ and fortunately there are cis-gender males and females who are attracted to the person-not what they have or haven't got between their legs]...

::) If one blends in 'appearance-wise' and takes the necessary steps to avoid detection[not letting it all hang out in public so to speak] society will be none the wiser, and for the non-ops[those who choose to stay non op or just can't afford to pay for the surgery], being seen and treated as their affirmed gender is all they desire...

If the local government/state comes to the party by legally recognising ones affirmed gender [affirmed as in being diagnosed and having been living comfortably in one affirmed gender for a year or two-with no desire whatsoever to go back to living as their birth sex]  that will be the icing on the cake for the no-ops...

::) Reality is, when it comes to gender recognition society/the general public will have the last say...Surgery or no surgery...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Kia Ora Val,
I hope you're doing well and still enjoying life...Good night...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on October 14, 2011, 10:48:19 PM
Kia Ora,

::) Does it really matter what's between ones legs or for that matter upon ones chest ?...
If a person looks and acts the part[ ie, tucking and binding ], the only people who might possibly have some concern are oneself and[if one is sexually active] the partner/s one is being intimate with[ and fortunately there are cis-gender males and females who are attracted to the person-not what they have or haven't got between their legs]...

::) If one blends in 'appearance-wise' and takes the necessary steps to avoid detection[not letting it all hang out in public so to speak] society will be none the wiser, and for the non-ops[those who choose to stay non op or just can't afford to pay for the surgery], being seen and treated as their affirmed gender is all they desire...

If the local government/state comes to the party by legally recognising ones affirmed gender [affirmed as in being diagnosed and having been living comfortably in one affirmed gender for a year or two-with no desire whatsoever to go back to living as their birth sex]  that will be the icing on the cake for the no-ops...

::) Reality is, when it comes to gender recognition society/the general public will have the last say...Surgery or no surgery...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Kia Ora Val,
I hope you're doing well and still enjoying life...Good night...

Metta Zenda :)

Nope, doesn't matter.

Yep.

Yep.

Yep, you've got it.

G'night Val.  Was nice talkin'.

so why did you choose to come back? anyway, i don't know why it matters what a female body is, what a male body is. some people don't believe in genitalia as a membership card. really, i don't have much to say other than what Stephe said in her last post. she pretty much covered it. i do know that post ops born in the body of male would still have the prostate, cowpers gland, and seminal vesicles. those physical parts are no less male than the penis, but you seem to get on fine with them? i don't know, i just don't know why it has to be like this. the only reason you should've gotten srs was because it was going to make you happy. it doesn't seem like it did if you still have to validate your category.

it's obvious, the new up and coming generations of people with GID are getting more and more access to the resources that can put them in peace with their life. the SOC has just upgraded to the new revision, and the arguement of who is the "correct transsexual" is losing just about all of it's sense.

I can't see why you are getting so wound up about this Valerie, if you are happy having had SRS, that  is really all that matters.  I intend to too, but if it is prevented by a medical issue for example, I will just have to live without it. 

I think something I read by Julia Serano summed it up pretty well.  It was something along the lines of," there are women with penises, and men with vaginas, and the world is going to have to cope with it."
I would have added," and bloody well learn to like it."

Really, the moment the contraceptive pill was invented all the rules of gender and sexuality went out the window, and society still hasn't caught up fifty years later.

Karen.

Good morning ladies :-)

I came back to respond to a few posts in the Post-op forum, as there were some statements in there that were directed at me. I'm not trying to evangelize anyone. Was just upset and discouraged that contributions that I made in some areas on this site (specifically surgery) werent recognized by the people I was helping, or to put it in terms of that discussion providing leadership to.

I wont be staying to cause everyone grief. I think my presence is not helpful to many here. I wish all of you well and happiness.

Just one more comment/question Valerie.. What of us that want 'the surgery' but are unable, for various medical reasons, to have it? Do I like having male genitals, heck no, but the likelihood is any major surgery would kill me.. Where do I fit in to your beliefs? Should I run the (very high) risk of death just to conform?

Hi Kelly, good morning. No not at all. You are a woman as any other, which is your internal identity (according to my belief system). It is the physical body that does not match the identity, it is the body that has the unwanted, wrong male part(s) or unwanted features. If a TS woman does not desire to correct her body (body dysphoria), then it is a valid question is she TS woman? The key word is desire, not the actual correction.

You are a very lovely woman, as many others here are.

Another negative reputation point... wonderful. At least you are showing yourselves your opposition to the WPATH Transsexual ICD and DSM definitions for all to see. My posts always have their roots to those and the earlier versions of them. My posts always comes back and points to the many tens of thousands of women who have suffered from transsexuality and were either cured or suffered from that condition until their death ...or are still suffering today. Many here on this site.

Your negative smites simply show how you feel about that condition, formerly known as transsexuality (and still the title of many forums here) and the path to a cure.

Your smites are shameful because it reflects your feelings on those many sufferers.

If your condition is not debilitating, good for you. But dont smite and smear those that were debilitated. Dont smite those that were cured and reach out to help those other women.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 07:18:37 AM
Good morning ladies :-)

I came back to respond to a few posts in the Post-op forum, as there were some statements in there that were directed at me. I'm not trying to evangelize anyone. Was just upset and discouraged that contributions that I made in some areas on this site (specifically surgery) werent recognized by the people I was helping, or to put it in terms of that discussion providing leadership to.

I wont be staying to cause everyone grief. I think my presence is not helpful to many here. I wish all of you well and happiness.

Valerie you look fabulous and I absolutely love different opinions.  Glad you are back!

I remember first time I came to Susan's.    I was in awe!  How could a person have so much courage to survive ridicule to change their gender!  I have had no one to talk to for several decades and it has been a lonely journey and it is great therapy to just write and/or talk.

I have found nuances with several people that are not prevalent in forum.  Each of us have developed different coping mechanisms.  Fragmentation is so great that if each person must fit a mold at end of day we will have no one to talk to.

Tri Ess excludes me because I am too different for them.  Yet cross dressers have taught me a lot of tips to be more stylish.    Most other groups tend to reject me too because I do not fit their mold.

People might move slow because of a wife, job, family, health, finances, scared, etc.  (I am freaking scared!  What if I am insane?  Whole thing is illogical! )

I have two friends that have fully transitioned and tell me they are now women and not transsexuals.  In fact they tell me that I am a transsexual since I have not transitioned.  Where do we get all these labels?

I have found my label.  I am me.  I will be me if I transition, if I don't transition and if I partially transition.

Frankly I dislike female restrooms because lines are too long.  I go to restroom to pee and prefer a single room with no gender marker and lock on door.

If a person has a sense of love in their being then their form of expression is good for them.  I do not understand myself let alone everyone else.  I know I can not function and doing something seems to be only path I have.

I applaud people that come on this site and brag how everything turned out wonderful.  My goodness I sure have lost a lot and I seem to feel somewhat better in things I have done on journey.

Are gender queers people that transition slowly?

We do not know how someone feels in their head.  We only have ability to try to share our thoughts and feelings.

Thank you Wendy. It is good to see you as well. I am glad you have found your way and are happy. There is value in diversity of opinion. In any case, we all have opinions :-)

Val

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 08:23:53 AM
Thank you Wendy. It is good to see you as well. I am glad you have found your way and are happy. There is value in diversity of opinion. In any case, we all have opinions :-)

Val

Totally agree, Val.  Censorship of opinions, even those that don't necessarily align with the majority opinion of this site, are really valuable, and I don't want to drive them away. 

I'm glad you're back, too.

Quote from: Annah on October 14, 2011, 10:19:00 PM
Gender does not equate to genetalia. If that was the case, the Conservative Right Wingers would have a picnic with us.....even with post ops...cuz they'll say, "That Vagina isn't a real vagina...it's just plastic surgery."

Yes, I agree with this. We are all gender or sex queer physically thanks to the condition of our birth, with an identity of one and the body of another.

Even post-op my body isnt the same as a born female body in some ways beyond the external. Though externally and genital-wise we are now the same.

The difference I am making (that I've been arguing) is that this isnt about them, this isnt about anyone else other than me and my view of my body. The dysphoria I felt by being born with a body that did not match my view of myself. It was never about them, never about society, or anyone. Just me.

I had my surgery for myself, I had to correct what I saw as an abomination. Something hated.

This is where we have a disconnect. I am concerned about myself and my view of my body, and others here are concerned about society and rights.

I corrected my body. No one can ever take that away from me, no matter what laws are passed in the future. No matter if I am ever mobbed, stoned, or brutalized. I am at peace with myself now. I can die now happy.

The conservatives can do what they want. They can hate me, they can kill me. They cannot take my vagina away. Too bad for them.

correct me if i am wrong but it seems your trying to say your not at fault for wanting everyone to conform to your image of what a lady is ? what's wrong when i first joined here you were this lovely lady who gave me tons of advice but recently you have been quite mean ? maybe before creating threads to insult particular ppl and then justify yourself pls just think about how your actions are effecting our support forum because i to did some stuff and i didn't realise until someone told me and i am glad they did so i am doing the same for you pls just remember this is a forum for supporting everyone no matter what their choices are  :)

I dont see that I am declaring what a lady is? I am stating what a female body is, there is no argument there. That is not being mean, however.

I came back because I was upset by the comments of someone that I had helped. I had to respond to posts that were mocking and belittling women who cannot find their clitoris post-operatively due to complcations or whatever. Women who cannot orgasm and perhaps never will. Is that something to joke about or make light of? I dont think it is. Now that is being mean. That is something deserving of negative reputation points. But not because I spoke up. That is shameful giving me negative points when I am simply defneding those women with complications. I had to respond to posts about leadership when I gave leadership to women going through their surgery.

I want to be helpful and friendly. I am just defending the WPATH DSM and ICD paths for treatment for Type V and Type VI transsexual women. Any others will have to get their support from those people who have gone before them, for the conditions they suffer from.

It took me many years to get up the courage to transition, courage to have surgery. I am 53 now. I am not casting stones at anyone. I lived with a penis for 51 years. I know what it is like to have dysphoria an entire lifetime. I had a difficult life as many here have. I am not attacking anyone, or being mean to anyone. Just defending myself and the contributions I made here ...over the course of years.

Can you or anyone honestly say that is being mean?

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 12:07:35 PM
I dont see that I am declaring what a lady is? I am stating what a female body is, there is no argument there. That is not being mean, however.

I came back because I was upset by the comments of someone that I had helped. I had to respond to posts that were mocking and belittling women who cannot find their clitoris post-operatively due to complcations or whatever. Women who cannot orgasm and perhaps never will. Is that something to joke about or make light of? I dont think it is. Now that is being mean. That is something deserving of negative reputation points. I had to respond to posts about leadership when I gave leadership to women going through their surgery.

I want to be helpful and friendly. I am just defending the WPATH DSM and ICD paths for treatment for Type V and Type VI women. Any others will have to get their support from those people who have gone before them, for the conditions they suffer from.

It took me many years to get up the courage to transition, courage to have surgery. I am 53 now. I am not casting stones at anyone. I lived with a penis for 51 years. I know what it is like to have dysphoria an entire lifetime. I had a difficult life as many here have. I am not attacking anyone, or being mean to anyone. Just defending myself and the contributions I made here ...over the course of years.

well, my dysphoria over my male genitals ranges between indifference to a vulva being the ideal. i believe i am transsexual, but my lifestyle is just different. i don't love my penis by any means just because i will masturbate, which some lady has told me quite recently. the point is, i have the ability to become post op as well, which would sound like i would gain instant membership to your advocacy, even though i don't feel the same as you do. anyway, i don't understand why someone who wants srs intensely versus someone who could live non op needs to be segregated.

by lady i meant the female body and i am talking about your recent actions in general :) pls just rather pm the person you have a issue with than start threads against them mwa mwa no hard feelings between us i hope :) 'hugs' i am just making sure you don't do something you will regret

The other lady and I have resolved our issues privately in PM's.

Goodbye everyone and good luck with your lives.

you too, take care.

Definition of sex from Canadian Oxford:

Quote
1 either of the main divisions (male and female) into which living things are placed on the basis of their reproductive functions.

We no longer use that definition. Sex ceased to be a biological category for humans hundreds of years ago. It was a term used to express REPRODUCTIVE function. The end. In the strict sense a post-operative woman is neuter, not female. So is every impotent bloke and every woman post-menopause. And since the term is not used in its original biological definition, this means that sex is a social category.

Let me give an example. A male soldier steps on a landmine in Afghanistan, he suffers that injury that all blokes are terrified of. However, he is still male. He does not suddenly cease to be male due to the lack of a penis. His IDs remain unchanged, his pronouns, everything stays exactly as it was. He is a disabled guy, but he is still a guy.

Or to put it another way, if you cut a guy's dick off, he doesn't become female, and neither will I.

I do not identify as MTF. I am a female who was born with a birth defect. I am correcting that defect. In less than 6 months my birth certificate will be altered to indicate that I was born female. I have zero interest in labelling anyone who is not me.

Efforts to rewrite the definition of sex to fit a specific agenda are exactly that. Rewriting. Don't imagine there is any actual basis for the crotch-definition.

Well said, Sarah7.

Devils advocate time....

Does a woman or a man need to keep up with the latest techniques of gender surgeries to be 'real'?

For instance: Suppose in the future they are able to grow a vagina in a lab and it is available to those who can afford it or are in countries that will cover it with national health care. Are those transwomen with a sugically created vagina less women than those women with lab grown vaginas?

Then suppose 10 more years in the future they find a way to turn a testicle into an overy. Do those women who now have their testicles turned into overies become more woman than those with only the lab created vagina or the surgicaly crafted one?

Then take it anouther step further in anouther 10-20 years. Now transwomen can get an srs procedure that is a fully functional female reproductive system. Are those women who can get this surgery now the definition of a real trans woman?

At which point do we draw the line?

Cause eventually there will be lab grown organs and genetic manipulation capable of changing a human at the genetic level.

My penis is a 'male' organ. Yep granted.
However it is also a female organ for two reasons.
First, it is on my body. I am a woman and every part of me is female. If I am lucky enough to get the resourses to get SRS that penis will be the donor material to become my vagina.
Second, I have been on estrogen and have been castrated. My penis does not react exactly like a standard 'males' does. It is softer in both meanings of the term and there is a texture to my skin that is definatly female. Even the smell that my penis gives off is no longer male. It is decidedly female. I have been with enough men and women to know the differance in the pheremones between the sexs.

My body is genderf***ed. Yep definatly so. This is a stressful situation but I seem to suck it up well enough.
However my body is more female than male in spite of the penis. (It looks rather out of place when I actually take the time to look at myself in a full length mirror.)

Female and male become very muddied once we introduce the TS birth defect and cross sex hormone therapy into the equation.

Quote from: cynthialee on October 15, 2011, 05:22:22 PM
Devils advocate time....

Does a woman or a man need to keep up with the latest techniques of gender surgeries to be 'real'?

For instance: Suppose in the future they are able to grow a vagina in a lab and it is available to those who can afford it or are in countries that will cover it with national health care. Are those transwomen with a sugically created vagina less women than those women with lab grown vaginas?

Then suppose 10 more years in the future they find a way to turn a testicle into an overy. Do those women who now have their testicles turned into overies become more woman than those with only the lab created vagina or the surgicaly crafted one?

Then take it anouther step further in anouther 10-20 years. Now transwomen can get an srs procedure that is a fully functional female reproductive system. Are those women who can get this surgery now the definition of a real trans woman?

At which point do we draw the line?

Cause eventually there will be lab grown organs and genetic manipulation capable of changing a human at the genetic level.

My penis is a 'male' organ. Yep granted.
However it is also a female organ for two reasons.
First, it is on my body. I am a woman and every part of me is female. If I am lucky enough to get the resourses to get SRS that penis will be the donor material to become my vagina.
Second, I have been on estrogen and have been castrated. My penis does not react exactly like a standard 'males' does. It is softer in both meanings of the term and there is a texture to my skin that is definatly female. Even the smell that my penis gives off is no longer male. It is decidedly female. I have been with enough men and women to know the differance in the pheremones between the sexs.

My body is genderf***ed. Yep definatly so. This is a stressful situation but I seem to suck it up well enough.
However my body is more female than male in spite of the penis. (It looks rather out of place when I actually take the time to look at myself in a full length mirror.)

Female and male become very muddied once we introduce the TS birth defect and cross sex hormone therapy into the equation.

i'm thinking we might as well institute a gender point system that coordinates with how real of a man or woman you are. maybe then, people will learn how totally unfair it is.

I think this whole issue has been needlessly complicated.

A person can be trans before surgery or even before hormones in the same way a person can be gay and a virgin. It is about who you are inside, who you feel you truly are.

Some people may choose to correct their body to better fit that feeling. Some may choose not to. Some may be unable to, either medically or financially. They are all worthy of respect.

Quote from: Lily on October 15, 2011, 05:40:01 PM
I think this whole issue has been needlessly complicated.

A person can be trans before surgery or even before hormones in the same way a person can be gay and a virgin. It is about who you are inside, who you feel you truly are.

Some people may choose to correct their body to better fit that feeling. Some may choose not to. Some may be unable to, either medically or financially. They are all worthy of respect.

Absolutely, I'm a great believer in respect and equality.

Since this thread is ongoing, I've decided to continue to participate to it's conclusion.

By calling SRS simply an option has the effect of the quote from an article below, which summarizes the concern of some in the TS community about Non-op .

Quote from: ts-si.org Ms. Sharon Gaughan article: What About Non-op Transsexuals? A No-op NotionAsserting that SRS is an option for a person born transsexual, even when all other factors are favorable, promotes pseudoscientific approaches to public policy. Denying the underlying medical reality of transsexuals has the consequent effect of characterizing SRS as elective surgery that is minimally cosmetic and not reconstructive.

This unscientific denial stymies initiatives to obtain research attention for transsexuals, improve medical practices, secure legal protection, and provide a variety of needed social services.

Let transsexuals be transsexuals.

Transgenders can be themselves and garner respect for their good will if they cease trying to co-opt the space needed by transsexuals to fix their birth condition.

Quote from: mimpi on October 15, 2011, 06:46:46 PM
Absolutely, I'm a great believer in respect and equality.

What do you mean by equality? Being transsexual is a medical condition, not an identity. Or are you disagreeing with that? Are you denying the medical reality of transsexuals? Is anyone here stating that SRS is merely elective and not medically necessary?

Being TS is not a lifestyle. It is a debilitating condition.

What do I mean by equality?

That we are all human beings and our rights are equal.

You have a problem with that?

Chill, F*S

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 06:51:13 PM
Since this thread is ongoing, I've decided to continue to participate to it's conclusion.

By calling SRS simply an option has the effect of the quote from an article below, which summarizes the concern of some in the TS community about Non-op .

Quote from: ts-si.org Ms. Sharon Gaughan

    Asserting that SRS is an option for a person born transsexual, even when all other factors are favorable, promotes pseudoscientific approaches to public policy. Denying the underlying medical reality of transsexuals has the consequent effect of characterizing SRS as elective surgery that is minimally cosmetic and not reconstructive.

    This unscientific denial stymies initiatives to obtain research attention for transsexuals, improve medical practices, secure legal protection, and provide a variety of needed social services.

    Let transsexuals be transsexuals.

    Transgenders can be themselves and garner respect for their good will if they cease trying to co-opt the space needed by transsexuals to fix their birth condition.

    Link: What About Non-op Transsexuals? A No-op Notion

Val,

Does that mean you share Ms. Gaughan's opinion?

Quote from: mimpi on October 15, 2011, 06:57:37 PM
What do I mean by equality?

That we are all human beings and our rights are equal.

You have a problem with that?

Chill, F*S

I am not disputing that. Of course your statement is true. That is muddying the issue, which is medical intervention. Do you have a medical condition and if not, allow those people to obtain their treatment in peace.

Quote from: SandraJane on October 15, 2011, 06:58:36 PM
Val,

Does that mean you share Ms. Gaughan's opinion?

I share the statement that SRS is not elective. And if you say it is, you are putting down every woman who has the medical condition of transsexuality where surgery was required. Women who needed that surgery for their life.

SandraJane, are you of the opinion that SRS is elective?

My medical team says otherwise.


p.s. I am simply answering your questions. If my responses are locked, deleted, removed then so be it.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 07:00:31 PM
I share the statement that SRS is not elective. And if you say it is, you are putting down every woman who has the medical condition of transsexuality. Women who needed that surgery for their life.

I was asking if you are in agreement with all of Ms. Gaughan's opinion?

How many times do you have to repeat the same thing over and over?

What does "to its conclusion" mean to you?

Ha Ha! SRS is not Elective Surgery, please don't put words in my...uh post that aren't there. Is this your LBJ imitation...."Just get'em to deny it.." Medical Team?

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 06:59:20 PM
I am not disputing that. Of course your statement is true. That is muddying the issue, which is medical intervention. Do you have a medical condition and if not, allow those people to obtain their treatment in peace.

Actually I do have a medical condition: asthma, and I use a salbutamol inhaler.

Why you seem to have got it into your head that I'm denying anyone medical care and free medical care for all at that (I'm a communist), is totally belong my understanding.

You are coming across as extremely agitated and angry. Can't say I blame you, it's an utter disgrace the way transsexualism is treated in the feral capitalist economy of the United States. Hopefully in the not too distant future all that will change. :)

I must agree that SRS is a medicaly nescesary treatment.

However so many of us are incapable of getting our surgeries due to finance issues that it seems to me that we can not only go by penis/no penis as the deciding factor of what is male or female.
Granted I have a vested interest in being legaly female in spite of my physical reality, so anything I say on the matter must be looked at with a jaundiced eye.

Quote from: cynthialee on October 15, 2011, 07:34:04 PM
I must agree that SRS is a medicaly nescesary treatment.

However so many of us are incapable of getting our surgeries due to finance issues that it seems to me that we can not only go by penis/no penis as the deciding factor of what is male or female.

Exactly. As I have hopefully demonstrated the only true solution to all trans issues lies in a sympathetic and caring socialist solution with free health care for all.

Transphobia and homophobia could similarly be eliminated by a state sponsored re education drive.

Quote from: SandraJane on October 15, 2011, 07:12:38 PM
I was asking if you are in agreement with all of Ms. Gaughan's opinion?

I share the opinion that there are transsexual women who cannot for medical or other reasons have surgery and are in a permanent state of pre-op, now known as non-op or no-op. These are very legitimate reasons and who cannot empathize with the plight of those women. I certainly feel compassion for those ladies.

I also share the concern that some transgender people pose as transsexuals. And that some make assertions that SRS is merely an option, which has real effect on TS people.

Quote from: ts-si.org Ms. Sharon Gaughan article: What About Non-op Transsexuals? A No-op NotionWe must have a special concern about the behavior of non-transsexuals who pose as transsexuals and publicize themselves as non-op. A common assertion has it that GRS/SRS is merely an option selected by individuals at one extreme end of a gender spectrum.

I dont think we can deny this happens.

QuoteWhat does "to its conclusion" mean to you?

I meant that I would continue to discuss topics that come up here in this thread until we either get tired of talking or it gets locked.

QuoteHa Ha! SRS is not Elective Surgery, please don't put words in my...uh post that aren't there. Is this your LBJ imitation...."Just get'em to deny it.."

I wasnt trying to. What I was trying to do was to understand your concern for my quote of the article about elective surgery. Which led me to think you may agree that it is elective.

QuoteMedical Team?

Certainly. Once my letters were obtained there was a medical team to treat my condition with surgery. I have a notarized letter from my surgeon that states my surgery was medically necessary.

Maybe we are all trying to say the same thing in different ways? It can be hard to know sometimes.

Quote from: Laura91 on October 15, 2011, 07:50:20 PM
Well, while it's a nice idea in theory, I doubt it could be put into practice. There are a lot of willfully ignorant people out there.

Hehe, they will be sorted out pronto. ;)

Quote from: SandraJane on October 15, 2011, 07:12:38 PM
Ha Ha! SRS is not Elective Surgery, please don't put words in my...uh post that aren't there. Is this your LBJ imitation...."Just get'em to deny it.." Medical Team?

Oh, you didnt answer the question. Can you please weigh in on whether SRS is elective or not?

My question was:

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 07:00:31 PM
SandraJane, are you of the opinion that SRS is elective?

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 07:51:56 PM
I also share the concern that some transgender people pose as transsexuals.

Suppose we could interrogate them to find out the truth. Waterboarding sound like a good idea?

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 08:08:06 PM
Oh, you didnt answer the question. Can you please weigh in on whether SRS is elective or not?

My question was:

Already answered it Val. By the way...your link to TS-Si...

You might want to remove it.

SJ

Quote from: SandraJane on October 15, 2011, 08:15:59 PM
Already answered it Val. By the way...your link to TS-Si...
You might want to remove it.

SJ

I took your previous answer in a different context since you preceded it with a laugh and thought you were only repeating a question with a question. Glad you agree.

As far as removing the link, I'm assuming it is a banned site? And why is that, why are we banning people's words?

I will remove it since it seems objectionable. What can be objectionable about it, I have no idea.

Quote from: mimpi on October 15, 2011, 08:12:50 PM
Suppose we could interrogate them to find out the truth. Waterboarding sound like a good idea?

You are inferring that is something I agree with. This is offensive and is an attack on me.

It is inline with your smite, which is also offensive and unjustified.

p.s. This place while it has some wonderful people, is just terrible with comments like that.

EDIT: I am locking this topic since I do not wish to converse with people that have the attitude above.

Unlocking to add... Why havent you transitioned after 20+ years on HRT?  I suppose instead of doing what you suggest we could just simply ask you the question that prompted your response above. If you are TS why havent you transitioned? If you arent TS, then why are you harassing me? Others faced their fears and did what they had to do. But you have time to harass and mock those people?

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 08:26:25 PM
As far as removing the link, I'm assuming it is a banned site?

Links to that site are not allowed due to some opinions expressed therein are against the TOS.

Z