Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I really dont know if anyone really knew that when I had started hormones over a year that my wife did not know.
Ive been lying all of this time.
Lying is the worst thing that anyone can do to her other than cheat.
Well, now that I had my first endo appointment and trying to do right in the medication front... I just told her about the hormones.
Well, I no longer have trust.
I've damaged her greatly.
She did not hit me.
She did not yell at me.
She has said little over instant message chat.

I have accepted that she may leave me because of the lie.

I love her more than anything and I dream that years from now I can still be married to her and start to regain trust.

Wow, that's really harsh. I can't really blame her for being upset about the lie, but she may have been equally as upset at the coming out if it had been done a lot sooner, too. No way of knowing. At least the truth is out there now.

I do hope she realizes that revealing such a big and intimate secret was an incredibly difficult thing to do and loves you enough to give you the chance to earn her trust back (which will be a long, slow process). If she can do that, I think there is hope that she *might* come to terms with your "out" identity and maybe even choose to stay with you for the long haul. Only time will tell.

If she does leave, it'll be painful but at least you don't have that Sword of Damocles hanging over you head anymore. Just know that you are not alone. *hug*

Best wishes.

Hi Jess

Would it possible for her to attend a therapy session with you? It can help if the therapist was there as a mediator.

:icon_hug:

it is best regardless of the outcome

living a lie eats at a persons soul and if left to fester for too long, it will corode ones soul indelibly

  The main reason why I never dated.  I didn't want to hurt her whomever she might of been.  Most of the single women I met in the past were 'mucho women'.   They wanted their 'macho men' anyway.  Sigh.  I still want them. 
  Jess, I hope for the best with you and your wife.  You should always be honest with your spouse, better on the long term stuff when you are dating your prospective spouse.  Your wife is hurt and in shock at this moment.  Give her space and respect her decision on your relationship. 
  Joelene

As Annah recommended, going to sessions together may be a big help, if she is willing to give it a try.  (I really should have thought to suggest it myself. *facepalm* I plead...um...sleep deprivation. Yeah, that's the ticket. ;) )

In my case, my wife and I do three kinds of sessions with our therapist: one session for only me, one session for only her, and one session with both of us. It has really helped us understand each other much better. Well, when we can afford the sessions.  Frankly, I'm of the opinion that all spouses/partners of transpeople would benefit from being involved in therapy, even if the spouse is already accepting and supportive.

It sounds like she may not be receptive to much of anything right now while she deals with the shock of the situation, but when she has had a chance to cool off enough to start speaking/chatting with you again, I would definitely approach her with the idea.

IM to exhausted to quote, please forgive me.
I can hardly think really.
Basically the outcome is.
Im selfish for forcing this for myself and letting no choise for her.
Ive ruiend our life because Im turning into a female, even though Ive said many time that Im fine with part time.
I can never be trusted, and that Ive well proved that with the year long lie and that Id still choose pills.
She is no longer my wife, but will live under the same roof for now for our children.
I am worthless.
I am a liyer.
I am selfish.
She believes that I never loved her.
She truely hates me.

I should really say that over the past year, she had more kids that I have not accepted and shes raised them on her own, everything on her own and that I caused so much pain and hurt from that that niether of us thiught we could get though.. and now theres this thats even worse.

I know Ill get yelled at for this, but I have to say it since it what I truly feel.

I hate that Im transgender! :'(

Jess,
  You will have to face this now!  You will pull yourself up and take any medicine she dishes out!  You'll be better off in the end if you take it and learn from this.  You are not the only one here on Susan's who has done this.  The pages are filled with the revelation to the spouse and the aftermath.  You have friends here by the responses here, including myself.   :icon_hug:
  Joelene

Just popping in to give a hug and to agree with the others that you did the right thing telling her the truth.

Best of luck with it all  :icon_hug:

:/ Ive seen the pages and the high rate of divorce.
I really didnt want to add to them, Im not one to really want to bring others down or burden others but... Hum... Felt I had to this time. I need shoulders.
Im hoping that Im clear ehough to actually reply to everyone clearly durring the day.
I know its going to be a long road. Well, actually it might be quite short if she gets the papers tomaorw when shes off work since she took the day off because of me.

I'm so sorry to hear this Jesse,

But I think she may be being a bit harsh, as you are also being so, on yourself. You have gone through significant physical, mental and emotional changes over the last year, which I would have thought to be pretty noticeable.

OK you didn't tell her you were on 'mones, but did she really expect the changes in your body to be from drinking OJ?

I know you love her. But sometimes these relationships are just too hard for the person who cannot understand the horror of being us.

Hugs my friend. I have a shoulder you can lean on.

Cindy

Hugs from me too Jess.

In case you don't know this, a LOT of females are VERY good at lying – mind you, it is often their only defence.

I have learned (in male-guise) to be a lot more forgiving about it, though try not to practice it if at all possible.

It struck me how merciless some females (AFAB) are when it comes to lies. Of course only when they are lied to!
Please take it all with a large pinch of salt, life is not as perfect as some would have it.

My 2 cents,
Axelle

Quote from: _Jess_ on October 17, 2011, 09:15:29 PMI have accepted that she may leave me because of the lie.

Well, it's not a lie anymore and she'll too just need to get over your "temp, forced due no other choice minor deception" for sanity's sake, just like everybody else is told? When ya mess with pre-contrived "grand plans" one must always expect grand consequences as well . . .

My father always used to say: "If ya expect the worst (in people) to begin with, you'll never be disappointed again" Remember the ultimate, final choice remains hers and, if indeed unable to "deal with it", probably means she didn't really love you in the first place!

Somebody help me.
I can't take this.

Somebody
anybody

I'm really truly sorry this had to happen. Did you discuss with her why you lied? Did you explain to her how much you still love her? You need to go through all the stops if you still want her. On the other hand, what's more important, you being your true self or her?

I'm really sorry for saying this, and I truly hate to but...sometimes when you love something, you have to let it go...

We're here for you no matter what happens. Don't lose heart.

Wife:  watch
what gender are you?
me:  I am male
born male
XY
Wife:  no. what gender do you identify with?
me:  ....female
Wife:  what gender do you act like?
me:  um
not girly
not sportsy
middle
Wife:  two options
male or female
me:  female.
Too female
Wife:  what gender do you think like
me:  I never wanted to be to female more you.
not femme, not masc.
Wife:  two options
me:  Male
I just told me that I do.
Wife:  um. no
so you consider yourself female
and sexually you want to be with?
me:  FEMALE
Wife:  my uncle switched
me:  he is not trans
Wife:  50% switch
i dont be;ieve you

you will not touch me
i am not lesbian.

Is that what really matters to her? Does the gender of the person she loved really matter that much? I'm sorry, but if she really loves or loved you then your gender shouldn't matter. Period.

Quote from: Fighter Sadie on October 18, 2011, 08:50:12 AM
I'm really truly sorry this had to happen. Did you discuss with her why you lied? Did you explain to her how much you still love her? You need to go through all the stops if you still want her. On the other hand, what's more important, you being your true self or her?

I'm really sorry for saying this, and I truly hate to but...sometimes when you love something, you have to let it go...

We're here for you no matter what happens. Don't lose heart.

I did. Because of my depression. yes.
every other word is how much I love. She says lies.
I've told her I'll stop. test my blood

I know hun. I've accepted her leaving. Its this pergatory that I can't take. The loss. The pain. The emotions.

Quote from: Fighter Sadie on October 18, 2011, 08:55:09 AM
Is that what really matters to her? Does the gender of the person she loved really matter that much? I'm sorry, but if she really loves or loved you then your gender shouldn't matter. Period.

It does.
She's a genetisist... XY = male
She is cis...
It's just that simple. (simple if you don't understand trans)

I seriously suggest trying to get some type of mediator between you two, either a therapist or a counselor of some sort. Maybe you two should have some time to yourselves to think things over. This will be much easier to handle when the dust of the initial shock settles.

I believe in you. No matter what anyone tells you, you are a human being with limitless potential, the power to withstand the pain of a thousand deaths and to bring mountains crumbling down. This pain will never last forever, and you will come out of it stronger.

Hi Jess,

Hopefully no children or property involved if this comes to divorce. Annah has a good suggestion to get her into a session with your therapist, might help to save the relationship.

Okay, now you're "Guilty" as charged! Worst punishment to be handed out...no Short-Sharp-Shock today! Long grueling and agonizing!

Could go on, and on, and on...

On the practical side, make sure you have money to tide yourself over, and keep track of what assets the two of you have acquired for whenever you end up in Divorce Court. Yes its painful, but these are inescapable practical matters you will have to face sooner or later (better sooner).

Time to go...yes it hurts and you will have plenty of time to "flog" yourself, better now than 10-20 yrs from now! There will be your family to deal with also...more support the better!

And hang on...

Hugz,

SJ

Pray for the best but plan for the worst.  Get a lawyer now.

Quote from: SandraJane on October 18, 2011, 09:05:40 AM
Hi Jess,

Hopefully no children or property involved if this comes to divorce. Annah has a good suggestion to get her into a session with your therapist, might help to save the relationship.

Okay, now you're "Guilty" as charged! Worst punishment to be handed out...no Short-Sharp-Shock today! Long grueling and agonizing!

Could go on, and on, and on...

On the practical side, make sure you have money to tide yourself over, and keep track of what assets the two of you have acquired for whenever you end up in Divorce Court. Yes its painful, but these are inescapable practical matters you will have to face sooner or later (better sooner).

Time to go...yes it hurts and you will have plenty of time to "flog" yourself, better now than 10-20 yrs from now! There will be your family to deal with also...more support the better!

And hang on...

Hugz,

SJ

.... 8yo daughter. 1yo twin males, house, cars... 11 Years of a life and 10 of marriage...
All is joint now, nothing is seperate.
There are no savings to fall on, to get though with. It all went to bills and student loans.

Quote from: tekla on October 18, 2011, 09:09:54 AM
Pray for the best but plan for the worst.  Get a lawyer now.

I have no interest in maintaining anything from his life. She will need it all to support her family.

Jess, you've done nothing intentionally to hurt your wife you must remember that.  And as a parent you must provide for your children, you are not a 'second type' parent you are a primary parent, be strong for them.  You must put your children first, and that means standing up for yourself, they need you to look after them.

And this is why she did not leave last night.
Because my income supports 80% of the house.
And that it'd damage our daugter leaving like that.
No other reason.
none
She has said that her husband is dead, that I am no longer male, that I am no longer who I was...
Well... That is the goal usually, right? But I did not want it to be at her cost, her expence. I tried to be male with her, but she wouldn't tell me she kept reading me as female.
We had a year long... damage and I was trying to get nack into the swing, back into being her husband.
I suppose I failed on all fronts. MIsserablely.
But I suppose I am no longer him, I am me.

 me:  Then the best thing that you can do for youself, is to leave. Get rid of the cancer, and find a real man that can be everything you need.
Wife:  i wish that were an option
i wish to hell that were an option

I'm sorry for you, and hope it eventually works out.  My wife is extremely important to me and my life.  Before I started any transition, I discussed everything thoroughly with her.  When I finally went on hormones she actually placed the first transdermal patch on me.  If she is completely on my side it is because I brought her in and gave her that opportunity. 
You didn't give your wife that.  I'm not trying to beat you up. Just look at her side.  You lied.  Most women are used to men lying.  But now with 3 kids, a house, no savings, and suspicions that maybe you want to stay home with the kids, or won't be able to keep a job, she is scared of her future and the kids future.  You missed that critical period when you could have made her part of the solution, rather than presenting a fait accompli.  Your lie may very well have made her position more rigid than if she had had some input, as if you forced it upon her.  Perhaps what I am trying to suggest is that allaying her fears over the future may do much to help the situation.  Of course if she has always been so rigid about you being trans, it would have been better to have walked away earlier, before the twins.     
Again, I hope you two make it.  Hopefully it is in fact worth fighting for and will have some kind of chance.

You are correct. I did not give that, but I know she's never give that either... I started when I was in a deep state of depression and saw that as the only way out. She'd never accept hormones under any circumstance.
We already discussed part time, nothing femme at work or anything.
I told her soon after I compleately accepted myself. ...Yes, I did start hrt well before I accepted but... I was just stupid.
To her XY is male, male or male. Trans is always birth gender.
She's just... That's her view. There is no gradient, no fluidity.
A woman that's been female for 30 years is still a guy to her. AND she can clock anyone.

I went through two divorces for the same reason.  It really hurt.  If your read on your wife is truly accurate, and your dysphoria is so bad, then it really does come down to an easy answer.  I have found that partial transition (facial hair removal, hormones, non-femme at work) works well for us.  I have enough for emotional satisfaction, and so does she.  Marriage is the act of compromise.  Perhaps if you give it time, and point out that you are contributing 80% financially, and intend to do so in the future, you'll get some begrudging movement on her part, then some acceptance as she hopefully acclimates to a "different" lifestyle.  That takes time.  If there is no hope, abandon ship and try again.  You look too young  to give up all hopes for a real life, with love and understanding.  I assume she is too.  Sorry if I am pessimistic.  It broke my heart when I divorced, but then, 10 years later, I found real love.  It does get better.

Makeup and hormones takes 10 years off me :)
That's what we had decided on, no femme near kids, no femme near work, (no hrt) part time.
Well... The hrt had already been in place.
and the changes, either by my acceptance of myself and relaxing and becoming feminine or the hormones... she says have changed me too much.
As for real love.. I had it. I know that everyone will say, oh there's better... No. I can't explain it. There is not.
I may date eventually, and have friends, but I can never marry again.

Quote from: _Jess_ on October 18, 2011, 09:14:41 AM
I have no interest in maintaining anything from his life. She will need it all to support her family.

God, you and I are sisters. I have one daughter and two sons too. My ex and I were married ten years and three months. I provided most of the income too and I gave everything to her but I did not have a choice. I came home one day from work and the house was utterly empty. I have not seen my children since 2009. Police reports were filed but no one's talking.

My ex did not leave because of trans issues. She had no idea I was trans. She left because of religious issues. She wrote a letter saying "God told her to leave" which sounds about right since her brother flew her to Oral Roberts house in California (her brother is a lawyer for Oral Roberts University).

It was because of this, I went back into the ministry to teach and to counsel, to show people the real love of God versus a wrathful, spiteful one.

From my experience, I suggest asking your therapist to meet you at the home because it sounds like your wife will not go with you to your therapist.  I would also suggest calling a marriage counselor and ask about emergency interventions. Your wife will be more responsive to a marriage counselor than a Gender Therapist at this point.

Right now, you have to convince her to stay with her. Marriage counselors can help with that.

If you wanna talk or vent please PM me.

I am sorry to hear this.  I will not hound you about holding in this lie, you've obviously understood the ramifications of waiting this long to tell her.  You need to remember that when a person gets angry, male or female, they say/do things they don't necessarily mean, it's an impulse and emotions get the best at the time.  Try to understand this is overwhelming for your wife.  When I first told my wife, she said nearly the same things.  We have a [now] three year old boy, and she was hysterical over what was going to happen, how he would take it, etc.  She told me without a thought that she was going to leave if I advanced towards my transition any further than I had.

Being you is the most important thing.  Children have unconditional love, not to mention you have every right regardless of outcome to be in their lives.  I understand you love your wife, and perhaps she'll relax within the next few weeks, but you need to take care of your children and YOU.  My wife said she'd leave, and yet here she is still - over a year later.  She came to terms with my being transgender, despite how hard it is/was for her.  When it came down to actually leaving, she couldn't do it because she had come to love me as a person, and not as an image [gender].

I cannot say the fate of your relationship, but please understand that she is highly confused right now and in fear.  Give her space, give her what she wants.  She may leave for a while, but perhaps she'll come back.  Then again, she may not leave at all.  She may refuse to speak to you for a while, and that's okay, let it happen.  Stay strong, if not for you - for your children.  Be yourself; self-happiness is most important in life.  I'm here for you, PM if needed.  Hang in there.

This really sucks, Jess. ɪ'm sorry you are going through this. ʏour wife should love you for who you are, and despite the breach of trust, ɪ think she is being pretty unreasonable, and talking to you in a pretty disrespectful way. By all means wait for the initial shock and anger to subside, but if she carries on treating you like that ɪ think you should get out.

All ɪ have to offer is kind of clichéd statements, but essentially dont put up with emotional abuse over this.

(ps, ɪ cant send PMs yet but thankyou for yours love)
x

:icon_hug:

I am so sorry.

Sometimes I think the trans activists and documentaries to a little too good of a job pushing their message.

I had been married 4 years when my in laws found out I was trans.  They both work for the government and were snooping into my life.  My SO knew years before we were married and we had agreed that I would not transition.

When they found out they called my SO and told her behind my back (fortunately she already knew) then tried to convince her to leave me.  Now these are two incredibly educated, intelligent, left leaning, well intentioned people.  Their argument was, "He is TS, he is really a girl, he WILL leave you and transition no matter what he says.  He doesn't have a choice."

Of course when I found out I was floored and cursed the trans political movement.

For Jess is appears her SO is buying the same story; her SO believe Jess is lying about only having a part time lifestyle, that Jess is a female so it means they cannot be together because Jess will eventually seek a male companion.

Truly I wish the best for you Jess.  Obviously this would have been far better not to have gone behind her back, I'm sure you're already beating yourself up about that, but what is done is done.  You apologize, do whatever you can to make it right, and move from there.

I will probably get bitch-slapped for this, but what about the wife?  Doesn't she get to make decisions too?  She laid down the law, expressed what she was willing to live with, then was lied to.  Her world is crumbling.  I don't think she is "buying" some story.  She has her own beliefs.  If finances (and with a house, no savings, and 3 kids I'm sure it does) are a large component of the "marriage deal"  then I'm sure she is worried about the future.  Doesn't she have a right to that?  I'm not saying it's good or right, but it is HERS.  Just as much as we have the right to our feelings and beliefs.  Unfortunately, sometimes those two sets of beliefs just don't mesh.  I am very much in favor of all types of marriage.  If you want to be poor, be single.  I am in favor of acceptance for our kind.  It just ain't here yet for everyone, or even most of us. Unfortunately, it is usually our folks that end up as road kill on the highway of life.

P.S. I usually find your posts enlightening, Interalia, but am having trouble following your logic on how your in-laws snooping into your life caused you to curse the trans political movement.  Unless it (the political movement) caused you to take fewer protections, assuming the world really is a happy friendly place for us, and that led to your outing.   

The trans show on OWN a month or so back where all the MTF went from wanting women to wanting men. Personally.. men are yucky. Sorry :)
It also didn't help that everyone that transitioned were older than I and of course had minor changes from HRT. The one they were following was going out in this grandma styled frilly thing and was clearly just so uncomfortable. The same woman was also shown at a voice and um.. walk/sit/hold yourself helping person. She was being told to basically go against 50's standards and squeak her voice. Oh the horror!
I think that most of the shows that I've seen do more damage than good. I really wish they'd do a show on someone more um... normal. Someone from here. Someone comfortable, that transitioned well, that is happy, that struggled but got though it.
I do understand where most cis come from though. Excuse the coarseness here... A ->-bleeped-<- is a ->-bleeped-<- and they are on Srpinger.
Yea.. Well, no. Most of us are just ourselves and happy. Simple.

As for my wife... after oh... 2 hours the first night + 13 hours yesterday she's running out of anger.
There are a few points that remain and have shown though.
1. She is no longer my wife. I am now wearing her wedding rings.
2. I took the option for her to have more kids away from her. Even though she's clearly said that she does not want any more kids and asked for me to get a vascetomy.
3. I took the possibility of intercourse away because Testosterone is required for an erection.
4. Her husband is dead. Well. I actually have said this exactly to my closest friends. Chris is dead. He was an angry, miserable, people hating, cursing bastard and he is long gone. I'm here now. Happy, energetic, people loving, cheerful person.
5. She will not be married to a female. She is not a lesbian.
6. I lied to her for well over a year.
7. I disallowed the option for HRT.
8. Eventually I'll out myself in male mode at work and with my daughter.

I think that's probably the current status.
On the good side, I have not been yelled at today yet and we have talked over phone and IM.

Also, on the good side... Wow. Without all of that Testosterone... With all the hate and daggers and everything else flying at me I haven't felt a single drop of anger or resentment that he would have had and fought back against. The emotional pain has been horrible but friends here and a friend at work have been really helpful. It's been intereting realiseing how feminine that I've actually become, the way that I now handle this. Hugs, consoling, talking, crying...

Okay. I'll give an update some other time. someone needs to actually do something since she did nothing for work yesterday.

Quote from: Cindy Stephens on October 19, 2011, 09:48:59 AM
I will probably get bitch-slapped for this, but what about the wife?  Doesn't she get to make decisions too?  She laid down the law, expressed what she was willing to live with, then was lied to.  Her world is crumbling.  I don't think she is "buying" some story.  She has her own beliefs.  If finances (and with a house, no savings, and 3 kids I'm sure it does) are a large component of the "marriage deal"  then I'm sure she is worried about the future.  Doesn't she have a right to that?  I'm not saying it's good or right, but it is HERS.  Just as much as we have the right to our feelings and beliefs.  Unfortunately, sometimes those two sets of beliefs just don't mesh.  I am very much in favor of all types of marriage.  If you want to be poor, be single.  I am in favor of acceptance for our kind.  It just ain't here yet for everyone, or even most of us. Unfortunately, it is usually our folks that end up as road kill on the highway of life.

P.S. I usually find your posts enlightening, Interalia, but am having trouble following your logic on how your in-laws snooping into your life caused you to curse the trans political movement.  Unless it (the political movement) caused you to take fewer protections, assuming the world really is a happy friendly place for us, and that led to your outing.

You are correct. The problem was that I started HRT a year before she put her foot down for no HRT, almost a year before I completely accepted myself and who I am.
Unfortunately she has a long list of misconceptions from anti-T papers, trans shows, and what's generally "known" about us.
I am who I was, I love her the same, I like the same things, I like cars, I like to game, all of the positive things about me are still here.
Anger, hate... T-based things are gone
Empathy, emotion, care (and physical) were added.
But the largest change is that I'm happy with myself for the first time in my life.

I've been trying to help her see that not all trans were overcompensating as males and lying about or fooling themselves about their sexuality as well as other transphobic things that she thinks from media and other places.
Of course the LGBT HATING mother doesn't help. When I say HATE, do I ever mean it. She's one that would think a kid watching Chaz dance would turn them trans too... :/
Her father is just stuck in the 60's and knows only what Fox says. Yea, so ... THAT's a great source of information right there.

I was only speaking to the fact that the wife does not believe that Jess is 1) interested in females and won't change, and 2) that Jess can only truly live part time.  Such beliefs exist because of the repeated experience of public trans-people 1) saying transition or die, and 2) changing their initial orientation once transitioned.  If the trans political community allowed for more people like me, people who are trans but do not transition, to give face time maybe there wouldn't be the all-or-nothing public perception out there like those of my in laws or Jess's wife.  The problem is, my existence damages their credibility and lends weight to the right-wingers who would be all to ready to take me as a poster child to represent all trans people when I clearly do not, so I understand why my story isn't one often told (despite that there are a very large number of us).

Concerning the lying though, truth be told I'm 100% on the wife's side in this case, but I hope her feelings do not make her blind to sympathy for Jess too.  Jess will have to do quite a bit to make up for this I'm sure and to regain her wife's trust.  Jess knows this, so no reason to beat her over the head with it.  I normally fall on the side of the SO's whose world gets turned upside down by these revelations.  Were I to transition my wife would be justified in leaving me and she ISN'T a bad person for doing so nor should she ACCEPT me.  I rocked her world, broke my vows, changed the deal - if she wanted to leave she is well within her rights to do so.

Jess, let me preface this by saying that I never got married, never had kids ( I knew long ago that when I got older as in 40's now).   I'm not against any sexual preferance for anyone...

But here it goes.  You need to make yourself happy 1st and foremost because if you aren't happy, you will never be able to make your children happy in anyway regardless of your gender and/or marital status. 

Being a woman is important to YOU.  Remember that you aren't perfect and the neither is she.  I hope that she can see things your way because you aren't going back to being a male.  You look fabulous and happy as a woman. Don't lose that for anything.  You very well know that you are a woman in your heart and your soul. 

Look at the commitment you've made to your happiness.  If you go back for her, you will be so miserable that you may never have any more happiness in your life.  At that point she will have all the rights and you will have none. 

You know that this won't have any chance of ending well if you decide to give up womanhood for the rest of your life. 

Be happy.  Live your life!

Monica.

Don;t have time for the whole thread right now but wanted to say something so i could find my way back to it.

I had a bit of a no-win situation with my wife - knowing full well if she knew about me taking hormones she would do everything in her power to sabotage it (and the method I'm getting them is easy prey to such interference) so I told her as a general statement a couple of months back (during an argument)

"When I find a way to get hormones I WILL take them but I'm not going to tell you when or answer your question if you ask because I don't want to give you the chance to interfere."

Eventually she will find out and she will be mad but I can point back and say "I told you the truth"


She knows I'm taking Spiro, and knows why I requested that specific blood pressure medicine but since my BP is slightly high she puts up with it.

Yea... I can't really say that's much better than what I did...
But, I know where your coming from.
That really sounds like a divorce waiting to happen. I know that if she had said no HRT BEFORE I started... Well, I would not have. Although, I'd be dead right now to.

I thought Id give an update as of today.
Things are... eh. Not great.
There is now a simple list of problems.
1. The original problem with the new kids.
          There has been great progress on this front. (due to the positive effects of hrt)
2. The lie, there is no trust whatsoever.
          This may take the rest of my life to fix, if I can. Ive accepted this as it was my doing.
3. HRT... Including the changes, the fem look, the mental shift, everything.
          Who knows whats going to happen here. I did shift back to 100% male over the weekend. I know a lot here will see that as bad, but Im happy part time, so its not bad for me. I still know who I am, just shift my presentation. It was quite funny though... I asked her if I was still to girly and she said "Nope, I read you as compleatly male. Everything changed, the way you talk, the way you move, even the way you walk and hold yourself." I said... well, yea? I do know what I did to shift feminine, I know how to shift back. I was just out of male so long, I needed to remember.

Eh I thought it was funny the list of things that she didnt think would change between presentations. :D

On the her whole "XY = male" rigidity bit, it sounds like you need someone (maybe your endocrinologist) to explain to her what being transgender is all about, and how it's more based on prenatal hormone levels than chromosomes. 

Quote from: Butterflyhugs on October 23, 2011, 10:22:57 PM
On the her whole "XY = male" rigidity bit, it sounds like you need someone (maybe your endocrinologist) to explain to her what being transgender is all about, and how it's more based on prenatal hormone levels than chromosomes.

While this is a comforting idea (dogma), it isn't based in reality.  Unfortunately chromosomes happen first.  They determine what hormones get produced in the body which effects the development of the fetus.

The prenatal hormone hypothesis isn't proven - there isn't even enough evidence for it to make a theory. (Hopefully) no endo will try to explain being transgendered that way.

Crap... I didnt see the red new post bit and killed my last post. Oh well.

The thing is that she sees in binary as well, as Id susspect that most non trans do. IE. woman in a mans body. She asked me three male or female questions. I kniw the first was what gender do I identify with. I said neither, but she required a binary... So I went with female.

Just think of how long it takes all of us to understand what and who we are, I wouldnt expect anyone to understand quickly.

I think it really helped that I was able to shift all the way male the past two days for her though, showed her a hint of fluidity. So, shes now seen mildly feminine, effeminate, and male. She has yet to see me fully en femme though and thats fine.

Quote from: brIAnna (interalia) on October 23, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
While this is a comforting idea (dogma), it isn't based in reality.  Unfortunately chromosomes happen first.  They determine what hormones get produced in the body which effects the development of the fetus.

The prenatal hormone hypothesis isn't proven - there isn't even enough evidence for it to make a theory. (Hopefully) no endo will try to explain being transgendered that way.

A bit off topic but, IF the hormone thesis is right and IF it has some genetic component, wouldn't it have to be the mother's genes which controlled that event and not the infants?

As I understand it, the fetus sends a signal to the mother what hormones are required and the mother supplies them, or at least tries to correctly. If it is this way, the fetus could have sent bad signals and gotten proportions that were not quite correct or the mother could have received poorly, or just have a hard time producing the correct hormones that were requested.

At any point. She understands that trans is created by something going wrong somewhere. If the purpose of animals is to reproduce then all lgbt are errors since we can technically reproduce but, I no longer can if I wanted to and gay cannot wice their choosen partner cannot supply the other half of the equation. (don't flame me for that, think if a lion is gay... would he reproduce)

Interestingly... one of the new kids is really into neacklaces, and less boyish clothing at only one year old. He's also more caring, hugging, and kissing.
I told my wife... at least I might have something in common with him! hehe :D It would be at least very interesting if he's... gay/trans/ or minimally CD...

I think your child may be too young to concretely show his sexuality at the age one ;)

Be careful with that one because your wife may feel that you are patronizing her.

Hi Baby, I am so sorry to read all about your struggle, the truth is as though you are quoting days of my life, which I have lived through not long ago.

Instead of writing an elaborate reply I will post a link to my site and diary which I have kept throughout my ordeal also I will post a link to the website I have created to explain and enlighten scientifically those who do not understand our condition and have trouble accepting biologically occurring variant on brain/body gender variation.

Hope it helps!!!

Innas site: innagurl.com (http://innagurl.com)  and go to my diary tab

transwoman.net  (http://transwoman.net)   news and information on transgender factor within newest scientific research

Quote from: Annah on October 24, 2011, 08:49:58 AM
I think your child may be too young to concretely show his sexuality at the age one ;)

Be careful with that one because your wife may feel that you are patronizing her.

Yea, she knows it's in jest because I consider the other one a jock... Everyone can just see linebacker in him :)

Inna. Thanks. I'll visit after all my meetings are over today :)

Quote from: brIAnna (interalia) on October 23, 2011, 10:37:30 PM
While this is a comforting idea (dogma), it isn't based in reality.  Unfortunately chromosomes happen first.  They determine what hormones get produced in the body which effects the development of the fetus.

The prenatal hormone hypothesis isn't proven - there isn't even enough evidence for it to make a theory. (Hopefully) no endo will try to explain being transgendered that way.

Your own chromosomes have no bearing on what hormones or hormone-altering substances might be introduced into your mother's body before or during pregnancy, or what her own hormones and genes are telling her body to release.

Manipulating prenatal hormone levels in both insects and small mammals has been proven and well-documented many times in labs to affect sexual orientation and sexual behavior in the offspring. Obviously direct human testing would be considered unethical, but it isn't hard to connect the two regardless.

I'd also advise you to look into the effects of DES given to pregnant women in the mid 20th century. Lots of prenatal hormone altering going on there as well.

Take off your blinders; it's a nice sunny day outside.

Edit: And by the way, a theory in science (as opposed to common parlance) represents the highest point of understanding of a complex subject. Theories in science are the closest things you can get to facts when drawing from many fields of study. So to say that it's "not even a theory" in an attempt at criticism is completely erroneous.

Quote from: inna on October 24, 2011, 09:34:27 AM
Innas site: innagurl.com (http://innagurl.com)  and go to my diary tab

Inna   -   Thank you; times ten to the power of a thousand.

PM following later

Love. Catherine

Quote from: Butterflyhugs on October 25, 2011, 06:13:40 AM
Your own chromosomes have no bearing on what hormones or hormone-altering substances might be introduced into your mother's body before or during pregnancy, or what her own hormones and genes are telling her body to release.

Manipulating prenatal hormone levels in both insects and small mammals has been proven and well-documented many times in labs to affect sexual orientation and sexual behavior in the offspring. Obviously direct human testing would be considered unethical, but it isn't hard to connect the two regardless.

I'd also advise you to look into the effects of DES given to pregnant women in the mid 20th century. Lots of prenatal hormone altering going on there as well.

Take off your blinders; it's a nice sunny day outside.

Edit: And by the way, a theory in science (as opposed to common parlance) represents the highest point of understanding of a complex subject. Theories in science are the closest things you can get to facts when drawing from many fields of study. So to say that it's "not even a theory" in an attempt at criticism is completely erroneous.

All we have is evidence that prenatal hormones can have effects on the fetus and have shown what some of those effects are.  Gender identity isn't one that has been shown in a lab.  It would be difficult to do granted.  My point was, (hopefully) no endo is going to espouse ideas about the origins of transsexuality with untested conjecture.  I don't accept the "hormone wash" idea of transsexuality as absolute like many do, but it is a nice idea.

I'm very versed in the scientific method, know the difference between a theory and a hypothesis, and the effects of DES.  I don't as readily accept unproven transsexual dogma though.

Quote from: brIAnna (interalia) on October 25, 2011, 10:59:00 AM
All we have is evidence that prenatal hormones can have effects on the fetus and have shown what some of those effects are.  Gender identity isn't one that has been shown in a lab.

It has been done so far with fruit flies. Researchers were able to demonstrate how a female fly's genes could be affected to make her exhibit male courtship behavior. That's about as close to gender identity as you're going to get in bugs, but it's a start. The research being done is relatively new and thus needs more time to develop, but you can't deny at least a relation between the two, even if it's currently unclear precisely how it works.

QuoteMy point was, (hopefully) no endo is going to espouse ideas about the origins of transsexuality with untested conjecture. I don't accept the "hormone wash" idea of transsexuality as absolute like many do, but it is a nice idea.

And my point was, that the wife's notion is obviously incorrect anyway, so it would be a good idea to expose her to a different viewpoint (especially one showing such promising tests).

QuoteI'm very versed in the scientific method, know the difference between a theory and a hypothesis, and the effects of DES.  I don't as readily accept unproven transsexual dogma though.

It's by no means dogma; science is a self-correcting process. Research suggests a link. To unwaveringly deny that in the face of evidence is the real dogmatic behavior.

Her view is wrong, we all here know that. Trans is not binary.
BUT.
1. If I tried to force fluidity at this point, she'd shut down.
2. Think about how long it takes all of us to understand our self, and we're in the middle of it. Now, how long do you think that a cis would take that starts with the wrong idea?

I should comment that she, as do I feel it's a in utero chemical thing.

She can think binary for a while and if we end up staying together, then maybe one day as she sees me shift from masculine to feminine she'll start to understand that I am both, that it's not an either/or type thing.