Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I'm a MTF transsexual who has been on hormones for a few years; and still look very male--and is not pleased about this.  What has made me even less pleased is the fact that--being in my mid-50s--I'm not the toned and fit individual I use to be, and the breasts I've grown are anything but perky; I am very unhappy about all this.  I'm rather disgusted when I take off my shirt and bra (when I wear one).  I have always been admired and been attracted to female bodybuilders. Having an attractive and fit body has always been highly important to me.  So I am thinking of taking secondarily (if I had the money I probably would have done it already), on a limited basis (perhaps only once) steroids.  I don't care about not looking like a conventional/ordinary female; I've never had any use for the ordinary in my life.  I do love being a head-turner.  Does anyone have anything offer?

That's probably not a good idea.

Quote from: Renate on October 22, 2011, 06:37:19 AM
That's probably not a good idea.

Seconded that one.

Why don't you just, you know, work out? When I can afford it I personally love going to the gym and working out. Or you could buy some weight lifting gear for home. Or that Shakeweight thing, which I hear really does wonders for arm flab. Heck, you can even get some nice results just by doing crunches, walking, and resistance training, all of which requires nothing but maybe a pair of shoes and work-out clothes.

I personally wouldn't recommend steroids ever unless they're medically needed.

That's my two cents anyway.

Steroids are  not some magic potion that will turn your figure into that of a body builder's, just like , just like estrogen won't give you one like Kim Kardashian's. If you want that toned, even ripped body there is only one thing that is going to get you there, lots of hard work and dedication to the cause. All the steroids in the world will not help Homer Simpson, except in the imaginary world of cartoons.

Uh, aren't hormones steroids?

You could talk to your endo about lowering your spiro for awhile.

All of you have valid points; but it's more than purely a fitness issue.  The problem is due to my age I no longer have the (tight) skin of a young person.  Besides estradiol and spiro, I'm also taking proscar; and the breasts ARE growing--which I like very much--but I hate the sag lines under them along with the flabbiness.  I know that being on spiro and wanting to take male steroids sounds like a big contradiction.  However, I've seen a little evidence that this paradox does indeed work for some.  I've come across quite feminine, at least one that was even passable, transsexual bodybuilding types.  I have also seen bodybuilders who have relatively very tight skin into their 70s.  No, steroids are not some magic potent; but they are probably at least one of the closest things to one.   I'm well aware that there could be danger in the combination that I'm considering.  This is why I'm looking as much information as I can find.  Yes, physical appearance IS this important to me.  All feedback is appreciated.  Thanks.

The resistance exercises required in body building upregulate androgen receptors and so does spiro. You will have better mascular development by simply stopping estradial administration and have a breast implant inspead of aiming for breast growth through the hormone's route.

Quote from: Renate on October 22, 2011, 06:37:19 AM
That's probably not a good idea.

I agree. I encourage you to consider the health risks of doing so. Not only will the extra testosterone potentially just get converted into more estrogen, but, considering all hormones are products of cholesterol, I would be worried that you're skyrocketing your chance of heart and other health issues.

I also echo what everyone else is saying--as MTF, you've already likely got much more "steroids" (i.e. testosterone) in your system than other female bodybuilders, and most female bodybuilders don't take any steroids. They just work really, really hard for a really, really long time.

not a good idea.

This is a bad idea all around. Anabolic steroids are not even close to the magic bullet you desire. You would be better served to cut back or eliminate your T-blocker temporarily rather then add anabolic steroids. You would be risking very serious health issues that could potentially mean you would have to stop HRT if it doesn't kill you outright. (google the following topics: body builders and kidney failure, body builders and stroke, anabolic steroid side effects, paying particular attention to potential cardiovascular disease, liver damage and the potential for irreversible neuropsychiatric toxicity.) Since no physician in their right mind would give you script to do this, I am assuming you will be getting them on the black market, with all the additional risks that entails. If you use injectables, be sure not to reuse needles, from yourself or anyone else. I know, you're too smart for this, right? But I think a valid argument could be made that if you are stupid enough to do this on your own, you would be _______ enough to reuse needles.

I don't know if you realize it, but body builders are probably the most intentionally unhealthy group of people in modern society. Their diet is unhealthy to the max both when they are trying to bulk up and especially before competitions. It is not steroids that makes them look extremely cut, like their skin is pulled tight--it is extreme dehydration and calorie restriction for about a week before any contest. (google body builders and dehydration). On top of an excessively high protein diet this majorly stresses the kidneys and has lead to coma and/or death of competitors over the years. Furthermore, to get the results you see in them, they spend an inordinate amount of time in the gym--4 to 6 hours daily, 7 days/week. Without that time spent lifting, you get all the risks but none of the benefits you perceive.

As others suggested, you would be way better off making lifestyle changes and beginning or increasing a regular fitness practice. If you are not very experienced in this regard, check out the P90X program--it is NOT all hype and has many good qualities, not the least of which is good diet recommendations and a nice variety of workouts. It is much cheaper than a year's membership at a club and requires pretty minimal equipment to get great results. You  would be surprised how a good chest and shoulder workout will perk the girls right up! (I am speaking from experience here.) I would also recommend getting some diet advice from a RD, or short of that, checking out the ABS Diet popularized by Men's Health magazine. They published two books on it, one targeting women and the other targeting men. It is a very doable diet that is really about making permanent lifestyle changes. The "diet" is based on good science (unlike almost ALL fad diets) and helps increase your base metabolism, helping to reduce and keep the weight off.

Finally, there just isn't that much you can do about the age-related changes in skin elasticity. It is primarily due to changes in constituent fibers in the extracellular matrix of the dermis. However, I have had several patients that have begun using Biosil (choline-stabilized orthosilicic acid, a silicate compound that promotes health of collagen throughout the body) on the recommendation of their dermatologists to help combat wrinkles. They are very pleased with the results. Also, I  hope you are aware that one of the side effects of exogenous estrogen is dry skin. The drier your skin, the more it wrinkles. In my experience most people don't drink enough water and are subclinically dehydrated. Lift a fold of skin on the back of one hand with the other. If the skin does not snap back down IMMEDIATELY, you are partially dehydrated. This will have a huge impact on your overall health as well as the healthy (or not) look and number of wrinkles in your skin.

Just so you know the knowledge base I am drawing on, I have a doctorate in physical therapy and see patients on a direct access basis. That means that while prescribing drugs is out of my scope of practice, I must be aware of drug effects in general, interactions, their effects on exercise, as well as a multitude of systemic diseases that would require a referral back to a physician or in some cases directly to the ER.

Good luck, and I hope this helps.

Dumb and Dumber,

The so called anabolic steroids are but variations of our old pal testosterone. You take T you become more masculine, jump the threshold -as in without physician supervision- and you could end with testicular atrophy, cardiovascular pathology, liver disease, and death.


The so called female hormone is estrogen. Take some E and you will turn feminine.  Unsupervised large dose estrogen consumption can and will damage your  liver.


The effects of E oppose the effects of T, taking any hormone without medical supervision is a dumb idea, taking both is dumber

Jen61

Sex esteroids (estrogens, testosterones, progesterones), glucocorticoids (cortisol) metabolism and immune system fuction, and mineralocosticoids (aldosterone) salt and water metabolism are all derived from chole-sterol

Just gonna tackle the "loose skin" point which seems to have a considerably say in this matter for you.

Just because you've seen "tight" 70 year olds doesn't mean stearoids will help.

Skin becomes loose because your diet is out of order, or because you're dehydrated, or because you've lost a lot of weight fast, or because you've put on more body fat or just because of age.
As we age, we produce less collagen and elastin and these are the materials required to make the skin "snap back" to sit tightly against our muscles, and on top of that, smoke, poor diet, and sun-exposure create damage which encourages the sagging.
Stearoids won't cause a return of collagen and elastin. What they "could" do however is encourage muscle growth and burn some of the fat out from underneath the skin, but there's a considerably safer way to do that, it's called "exercise".

So, before you start taking a "kind-of" Testosterone, how about you look into other options directed at addressing the actual causes and symptoms rather than going for "add more bulk to fill out the loose skin with chemicals!"

First of all let me say thank you for the excellent responses.  Also, let me clarify a bit.  I certainly never was intending to use steroids to the extent that bodybuilders, some pro athletes do, or even nearly to the degree that I take hormones (yes, under a doctors supervision).  No, lol, I'm NOT quite that dumb.  No what I thinking of was perhaps just a one-time use.  I absolutely had no intentions of making it an ongoing thing; and definitely going as far as needles was not what I had in mind.  Also, I am capable of and have indeed in the past done the hard work that some of you wisely mention.  Again, thanks.

Why would you want to do it for just a one time use? One time isn't enough to see or gain anything from it (which is not a drug you want to gain anything from it).

Quote from: patstar on October 22, 2011, 12:51:02 AM
I'm a MTF transsexual who has been on hormones for a few years; and still look very male--and is not pleased about this.  What has made me even less pleased is the fact that--being in my mid-50s--I'm not the toned and fit individual I use to be, and the breasts I've grown are anything but perky; I am very unhappy about all this.  I'm rather disgusted when I take off my shirt and bra (when I wear one).  I have always been admired and been attracted to female bodybuilders. Having an attractive and fit body has always been highly important to me.  So I am thinking of taking secondarily (if I had the money I probably would have done it already), on a limited basis (perhaps only once) steroids.  I don't care about not looking like a conventional/ordinary female; I've never had any use for the ordinary in my life.  I do love being a head-turner.  Does anyone have anything offer?

Quote from: patstar on October 31, 2011, 01:43:54 PM
First of all let me say thank you for the excellent responses.  Also, let me clarify a bit.  I certainly never was intending to use steroids to the extent that bodybuilders, some pro athletes do, or even nearly to the degree that I take hormones (yes, under a doctors supervision).  No, lol, I'm NOT quite that dumb.  No what I thinking of was perhaps just a one-time use.  I absolutely had no intentions of making it an ongoing thing; and definitely going as far as needles was not what I had in mind.  Also, I am capable of and have indeed in the past done the hard work that some of you wisely mention.  Again, thanks.

??? ??? ???

What you seek is Cosmetic/Plastic Surgery/FFS, and a  Workout program. No other way.

Ever play "Russian Roulette"?

That's what you would be doing on Steroids, and only ONE TIME? Please think about what you are saying!

Sounds harsh, I do apologize, but think about what you are saying...please!

Hmmm, good topic, I'd say.  I agree that hardcore exercise, with a little help, is the way to go.  The problem with surgery is that it is quite expensive (especially for those such as me).   I know what you saying about "one time".  However, few powerful drugs--of which I know of anyway--fail to have a significant impact the first time most people use them.  (Also:  Is every six months or even quarterly use so bad?)  Yes I know; there, too, is the threat of addiction.  Can I ask why, if so deadly as everyone here is suggesting, is the use of these drugs quite so widespread?  ('Well, how many people smoke?" Smoking IS a habit.)  Forget the dozens of ex-bodybuilders (including one former state governor) and pro athletes that have yet to show any ill effects.  Many people at my former (and future) neighborhood health club (and I do not live in a big city) are DEFINITELY using.  Lol, I'm not even saying that I won't take the wise advise I've received here; but I keep getting these contradictions in my head.  Lastly, I am new to these forums and I'm very impressed.  Please  :) keep the stimulating thoughts coming.

Have you done any research on your own? You might want to try that first, so that you can see the "data" for yourself. That would probably speak more clearly to you than our responses. Remember, you would be mixing different "steroids" together, could create some disastrous effects...

Quote from: patstar on October 31, 2011, 05:22:42 PM
However, few powerful drugs--of which I know of anyway--fail to have a significant impact the first time most people use them.  (Also:  Is every six months or even quarterly use so bad?)

Doing steroids once is bad. There's a reason why they "illegalized" social usages of that drug. Others here have commented very well on it's ramifications.

QuoteYes I know; there, too, is the threat of addiction.

It's not the threat of addiction that you have to worry about on Steroids. It's the threat of your body getting messed up on it (which I never ever ever ever heard of someone who wants to feminize themselves on HRT wanting to take steroids. You're gonna make yourself more masculine while severely messing up your system by throwing your hormones out of whack).

QuoteCan I ask why, if so deadly as everyone here is suggesting, is the use of these drugs quite so widespread?  ('Well, how many people smoke?" Smoking IS a habit.)

Just because meth is so widespread in the Central United States does that mean "it's ok" to shoot it up your arm? Because other people are doing it. ...I certainly hope not.

The logic you use "just because other people use it...then it can't be bad for you" is just really bad logic.

QuoteForget the dozens of ex-bodybuilders (including one former state governor) and pro athletes that have yet to show any ill effects.

Come again? Here are some famous people who died of Steroid Abuse:

Sonny Schmidt died at 46
Scott Klein died at 30
Ron Teufel died at 45
Dan Duchaine died at 48
Mohammed Benaziza died at 28
Andreas Munzer died at 30
Mike Mentzer died at 49
Ray Mentzer died at 47
Don Ross died at 55
Dr. John Tristany died
Don Peters died
Ray Raridon died
Jay Youngblood - 30
Buzz Sawyer - 32
D.J. Peterson - 33
Eddie Gilbert - 33
Chris Candido - 33
Gary Albright - 34
Yokozuna - 34
Brian Pillman - 35
The Wall/Malice - 36
Leroy Brown - 38
Eddie Guerrero - 38
Davey Boy Smith - 39
Vivian Vachon - 40
Terry Gordy - 40
Bertha Faye - 40
Larry Cameron - 41
Rick Rude - 41
Big Boss Man - 42
Curt Hennig - 44
Hercules - 45
Hawk - 46
Dick Murdoch - 49
Rocco Rock - 49
Uncle Elmer - 54
Gene Anderson - 58

I suggest you to stop taking the advice of people you know who take steroids and listen to the voices of reason from those who died from taking steroids.

Be someone important in life. Don't be a statistic.

 :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:

THANK YOU ANNAH!

Patstar,

Do so at your own risk.

  The feedback here is terrific; and thank all you guys for caring so much.  That's no cheap commodity.  I sincerely appreciate it.

Quote from: SandraJane on October 31, 2011, 07:23:30 PM
Have you done any research on your own? You might want to try that first, so that you can see the "data" for yourself. That would probably speak more clearly to you than our responses. Remember, you would be mixing different "steroids" together, could create some disastrous effects...

As someone else suggested,  have you done the research on those folks you think aren't showing the effects? In my opinion, and only from seeing him in news stories, I DO think that ex-govenor is showing the effects. He looks decidedly unhealthy for his age and supposed health-consciousness. Just my opinion of course.

As a former fatty I think I can help clear up at least one issue, loose flabby skin. I am about 100 lbs down from my high of 250. Even in my 20's when I lost most of it, I still carried around a lot of the excess skin. Of course gravity wins and it all collects right around your waist. With plenty of the right exercises I suspect some to most of the excess can be gotten rid of. I do exercise some and can notice the difference around my abdomen. Much more just wasn't worth all the time and effort to me. 

Perhaps my breasts are in pretty good shape, perky but wall-eyed  :( , because I never had a lot of loose skin or flab on (most of) my chest. Here in WV you can see plenty of guys with far bigger breasts then mine! Certainly none you would call youngish female. If your complaint is the lack of tone, diet and exercise is the best if not only approach short of surgery.

Yeah, it's a very bad idea.  Just speaking for myself, an older transitioner (around your age when I started), I know that we are by far one of the biggest risk taking groups around.  I mean, who else would risk all the family and social connections they have in this life, and almost guarantee themselves that for some period, they would be completely unemployable?  All we have to do to prevent this, is not transition.  A personal note on your skin.......yah.....thin, thin, thinner.  Women have thinner skin, and after dropping your adult male muscle mass, you might be a bit saggy here and there.
A thought......think back when you took your first dose of estrogen.......did you have a burning need to be female?  Well, you are.  And like all of us, you will be on a scale of diversity in appearance.  Mother loves diversity......insists on diversity. 
So, did you have this burning need to be a woman.......or beautiful ?
I think you are at risk of throwing everything away that you've worked so hard for. 
Have you ever read the fable about the dog on a moonlight walk, carrying a bone?......And he came upon a pool of water shimmering his reflection back.....The bone in the pool of water looked too enticing not to grab, and he wanted both bones.  You can guess the rest of this story.......He lost everything.
Sometimes I have to remind myself that I achieved what I needed to, and leave the beauty aspects to the beautiful.

                                   (All, please!.............don't make the bone a male metaphor)




(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftickers.tickerfactory.com%2Fezt%2Fd%2F4%3B10704%3B96%2Fst%2F20120220%2Fe%2FGCS%2Bwith%2BDr%2BMcGinn%2Fk%2Fe753%2Fevent.png&hash=a4447cb9c0696fe7b9b9f52fb753f79b2778450e)
(http://www.tickerfactory.com/)

a one-time dose of steroids may give a slight boost but how long will the effect last before you want to do it again and again?
don't forget that the estrogen will be adding a layer of fat under the skin.
if a really good diet won't give you nice tight skin you're just stuck with natural aging.

That's another thing. Estrogen thickens the layer of subcutaneous fat (the layer of fat just beneath the skin) so you could do some muscle building/strength building exercises WITHOUT looking more masculine for it.

A lot of girls, cis and trans, worry that lifting weights will make 'em look bulky and ripped.
Not necessarily at all! It will, more than anything, make you look more "fit", 'specially if you work on maintaining good posture and doing free weights and things like (assisted) pull-ups as that'll work your core, your deep abs and deep back muscles (and do kegel exercises too, for good measure) which make up kind of like a natural corset 'round your waist and if you get them ship-shape then the loose skin won't look as loose as your waist will appear smaller and your posture will improve.

(I've been going to the gym under the guidance of a physical therapist and doing related stuff lately, does it show?)

Thank you.   :) A lot of which all of you have said rings true and adds up.  There's no replacement for good hard, dedicated work.  I plan to get back to the gym at least by the beginning of next month. Much of what I have done there in recent years has been running and cardio.  I just need to hit the weights a great deal more than I have in many years; make that my primary.  My diet has been solid for a long time.  I'm quite aware that I can that I can no longer afford to eat the way I did when I was a man, lol (although I still pretty much look like one).  Thanks again for the excellent thoughts and information.  You guys are great.  I've received so much more here than I ever imagined.