General Discussions => Spirituality => Christianity => Topic started by: David W. Shelton on March 03, 2007, 01:29:03 AM Return to Full Version
Title: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: David W. Shelton on March 03, 2007, 01:29:03 AM
Post by: David W. Shelton on March 03, 2007, 01:29:03 AM
I wanted to take a minute and thank the many of you who responded to my posts, and especially for the welcome you've given me. It is my hope that I can share a few things that will be an encouragement to the many people who come through this board. My posts will indeed be from a Christian perspective, but I hope that anyone can glean a speck of truth from them, no matter their faith or belief.
We're all on a journey, and my path happens to be to follow Christ and His teachings. I invite anyone to come alongside for a few minutes, and maybe we can share with each other a nugget of truth, or even a grain of hope in a life that is far too often replete with frustration and turmoil. We'll always find some things that will make us smile, reflect, dream, and hope.
A walk of faith is never easy, to be sure. But the more of us that walk side-by-side, I think we can strengthen each other, even if we might not even speak the same "language" of faith or even agree as to the relevance of faith. We're all in this thing called life... even if it sucks sometimes!
So.. without further ado...
After my recent posts and our church's message of "we're sorry for being self-righteous, judgmental bastards," I was hit with a few irritated emails. Yes, it was expected. Quite frankly, I was hoping to get a few people riled up. After all, if we're so comfortable in our Christian recliners while we watch our Christian TV and read our Christian magazines as we send our children to Christian schools, then I question whether we're being the salt of the earth that Jesus called us to be. Clearly, we find it far easier to be salt in someone's wound than anything else.
I believe God is stirring our collective "Christian" nests, and that He is bringing us out of our complacency to reach a world that is sick of religious tripe. They've seen the big churches, the polished pews, and the fancy preachers, and they are not impressed. To be sure, Christian TV is as hokey as it is self-centered in its presentation of the Gospel: "Give money to us and God will bless you!"
In all reality, most of us are far more comfortable in crowds than in small groups. After all, we can hide in a crowd. We can be lost in the masses. We have become, as one pastor I know said, "a bunch of porcupines trying to live close to each other." We barely know our neighbors. In truth, we really don't WANT to know our neighbors. If your neighborhoods are anything like the ones in Clarksville, they'll probably move away soon, anyway.
And it is out of that nest...that comfort zone...that God is calling us. By "us," I mean those of us who are Christian. I believe that He's calling us out of our comfort zone, out of our recliners, and, in many cases, out of our religious traditions. He's calling us out of the mindset that we must follow a certain set of rules to be "Christian." After all, what's the point of Christ's fulfilling one law if we're going to just replace it with another?
In a word, He's calling us into GRACE. It's a word that instantly invokes the classic John Newton hymn, "Amazing Grace." We were indeed all once blind, and we now see... that Jesus Christ is Lord. Grace will lead us home, and grace will bring us to eternity with the Father where time is without meaning.
Strangely, grace usually goes out the window when we deal with our fellow man. Far too often, we replace grace with judgment, mercy with wrath, and love with hate. After all, some say, "grace isn't a license to sin." This is a line that is often used against those who are eventually kicked out of churches for whatever reason. Maybe a pregnant girl is kicked out because she chose to have her baby instead of an abortion. Or a divorcee is shunned because they wouldn't stay with an abusive spouse. Perhaps a gay teenager is ostracized because of who they are.
But what is grace? For this post, I'll stick to the commonly regurgitated evangelical definition: "unmerited favor." It is literally a divine overlook of all of our faults, weaknesses, and sins. He looks past all of that to give us the free gift of eternal life. It is the kind of grace that we're all quick to embrace for ourselves. Sadly, we're also quick to deny it to others, since some believe that sin shouldn't be encouraged or supported.
Dietrich Bonheoffer once coined the phrase "cheap grace." In his mind, grace could easily be abused and reduced to being nothing more than an excuse for sinful behavior. He thought that the liberty that we have in Christ should never be spat on by someone who just flat-out refuses to repent of habitual sin, which would do nothing more than "cheapen grace."
Bonheoffer understood what it was like to suffer. He understood the high price of discipleship, and was eventually killed in a Nazi death camp for his "crimes" of preaching against the evils of Hitler's regime.
There's another word that must come into this discussion of grace. There is also "love." Love is tightly woven into the cord that binds all of us into the covenant which God made for us. Neither can exist without the other. Grace without love becomes a wall of separation between people, and between men and God. Love without grace becomes a recipe for disaster, where we can cut too close to a person's soft spot, only to set off wrath.
But when grace and love are truly operating in a person's life, they create an entirely new way of life. If a person who has been given much grace, and has been given much love, then their response is both grace and love to the One who gave it in the first place. Okay, I've lost you. Let me clarify a little bit.
God has given each of us an eternal amount of grace. Through the cross of Christ, all of our sin is forgiven. It is forgotten. Since Scripture teaches that sin is as much a state of being as it is an act, His great sacrifice has revealed this eternal grace for all of us. But wait, there's more. There's His love.
Jesus said, "Greater love has no man than this, for a man to lay down his life for his friends." He also said that we are His friends if we follow his commandment: "love one another." The message that Christ gave to all of us was a simple dual commandment: Love God, love people."
Now, what would happen if we were to realize this level of love and grace that God has given to us? The cross wasn't so that we could get into heaven by the skin of our teeth. Just because our lives were steeped in sin doesn't mean that we are wretched. In fact, God was so crazy about us, loved us SO much that he gave His very best.
Jesus didn't die on that cross so that we could be saved from hell, my friends. He went to the cross because of God's passionate and complete love for all of us. And that means you, too. He valued us so greatly, loved us so completely, and desires us so passionately, that He planned to have Christ crucified from the very beginning of time!
When we start to realize this, even just a little bit, then I believe that we'll begin to take on an entirely new paradigm in our faith. We don't serve Christ because we want to get into heaven. In fact, Ephesians 2:4-6 seems to indicate that we're already there:
As Christians, we don't serve Christ because we want to gain His favor. We already have it. We have His completely and totally undeserved favor. We have His love. He can never love us more or less than He already does.
He's never shocked by our actions, never disappointed, and he's never surprised. Scripture says that nothing will separate us from the love of God. His love is complete, whole, and without limit. It has never changed, and it never will. Grace isn't a license to sin. It's simply a message that our sin will not stand in the way of His love.
But, you might be thinking, "You don't know what I've done! There's no way that God could love me, or forgive me."
Do you think that your sin is greater than God's love? Is that it? Or do you think His love isn't good enough for you? My dear friend, it is good enough. It's good enough for you and over six billion others just like you. We can't let a false sense of humility stand in the way of the ultimate grace: God's eternal, complete love.
I believe that God is calling us to stop looking out our own faults and look to His perfection. When we go from naval-gazing to gazing at the beauty of God Himself, suddenly, we're exposed to the clear reality that His love, His glory, and His grace surpass everything. It surpasses our sin, it surpasses our confusion, and it surpasses our own utter lack of grace and love.
Let's "fix our eyes on Jesus" as it says in Hebrews 12:2. When we do, we'll begin to be consumed by His love rather than by our own sin, or the sins of others. Instead of pointing fingers in judgment, we're lifting hands in worship. And better yet, we're encouraging each other in their walk, rather than pointing out each others' faults.
When we walk in grace, and walk in love, we begin to adopt a new way of living. I don't choose to remain faithful to my partner because of legalism. I made that choice because I love him. I made that choice because I know how much he loves me. There's great grace in that simply because we know it's not a matter of not cheating. I just couldn't imagine breaking his heart like that.
With grace, it's not the law that keeps us from sin, it's love. If we truly love God, then our desire is to show our love for Him in all ways. If we truly love Him, then we love those whom he loves. Grace then takes its full effect. Liberty then takes root. Yes, we have complete freedom in Christ. But when our hearts are so captured by grace and love, then our desire is God Himself.
When we begin to walk in this level of grace, my friends, I believe that we'll finally start to see just exactly how much He is really crazy about us. We can explore grace in every way; and we can explore the passion of God for His people.
As we enter into this Easter season, let's meditate on this powerful message of grace and love for all of His people. It is truly amazing grace, in every way imaginable.
We're all on a journey, and my path happens to be to follow Christ and His teachings. I invite anyone to come alongside for a few minutes, and maybe we can share with each other a nugget of truth, or even a grain of hope in a life that is far too often replete with frustration and turmoil. We'll always find some things that will make us smile, reflect, dream, and hope.
A walk of faith is never easy, to be sure. But the more of us that walk side-by-side, I think we can strengthen each other, even if we might not even speak the same "language" of faith or even agree as to the relevance of faith. We're all in this thing called life... even if it sucks sometimes!
So.. without further ado...
After my recent posts and our church's message of "we're sorry for being self-righteous, judgmental bastards," I was hit with a few irritated emails. Yes, it was expected. Quite frankly, I was hoping to get a few people riled up. After all, if we're so comfortable in our Christian recliners while we watch our Christian TV and read our Christian magazines as we send our children to Christian schools, then I question whether we're being the salt of the earth that Jesus called us to be. Clearly, we find it far easier to be salt in someone's wound than anything else.
I believe God is stirring our collective "Christian" nests, and that He is bringing us out of our complacency to reach a world that is sick of religious tripe. They've seen the big churches, the polished pews, and the fancy preachers, and they are not impressed. To be sure, Christian TV is as hokey as it is self-centered in its presentation of the Gospel: "Give money to us and God will bless you!"
In all reality, most of us are far more comfortable in crowds than in small groups. After all, we can hide in a crowd. We can be lost in the masses. We have become, as one pastor I know said, "a bunch of porcupines trying to live close to each other." We barely know our neighbors. In truth, we really don't WANT to know our neighbors. If your neighborhoods are anything like the ones in Clarksville, they'll probably move away soon, anyway.
And it is out of that nest...that comfort zone...that God is calling us. By "us," I mean those of us who are Christian. I believe that He's calling us out of our comfort zone, out of our recliners, and, in many cases, out of our religious traditions. He's calling us out of the mindset that we must follow a certain set of rules to be "Christian." After all, what's the point of Christ's fulfilling one law if we're going to just replace it with another?
In a word, He's calling us into GRACE. It's a word that instantly invokes the classic John Newton hymn, "Amazing Grace." We were indeed all once blind, and we now see... that Jesus Christ is Lord. Grace will lead us home, and grace will bring us to eternity with the Father where time is without meaning.
Strangely, grace usually goes out the window when we deal with our fellow man. Far too often, we replace grace with judgment, mercy with wrath, and love with hate. After all, some say, "grace isn't a license to sin." This is a line that is often used against those who are eventually kicked out of churches for whatever reason. Maybe a pregnant girl is kicked out because she chose to have her baby instead of an abortion. Or a divorcee is shunned because they wouldn't stay with an abusive spouse. Perhaps a gay teenager is ostracized because of who they are.
But what is grace? For this post, I'll stick to the commonly regurgitated evangelical definition: "unmerited favor." It is literally a divine overlook of all of our faults, weaknesses, and sins. He looks past all of that to give us the free gift of eternal life. It is the kind of grace that we're all quick to embrace for ourselves. Sadly, we're also quick to deny it to others, since some believe that sin shouldn't be encouraged or supported.
Dietrich Bonheoffer once coined the phrase "cheap grace." In his mind, grace could easily be abused and reduced to being nothing more than an excuse for sinful behavior. He thought that the liberty that we have in Christ should never be spat on by someone who just flat-out refuses to repent of habitual sin, which would do nothing more than "cheapen grace."
Bonheoffer understood what it was like to suffer. He understood the high price of discipleship, and was eventually killed in a Nazi death camp for his "crimes" of preaching against the evils of Hitler's regime.
There's another word that must come into this discussion of grace. There is also "love." Love is tightly woven into the cord that binds all of us into the covenant which God made for us. Neither can exist without the other. Grace without love becomes a wall of separation between people, and between men and God. Love without grace becomes a recipe for disaster, where we can cut too close to a person's soft spot, only to set off wrath.
But when grace and love are truly operating in a person's life, they create an entirely new way of life. If a person who has been given much grace, and has been given much love, then their response is both grace and love to the One who gave it in the first place. Okay, I've lost you. Let me clarify a little bit.
God has given each of us an eternal amount of grace. Through the cross of Christ, all of our sin is forgiven. It is forgotten. Since Scripture teaches that sin is as much a state of being as it is an act, His great sacrifice has revealed this eternal grace for all of us. But wait, there's more. There's His love.
Jesus said, "Greater love has no man than this, for a man to lay down his life for his friends." He also said that we are His friends if we follow his commandment: "love one another." The message that Christ gave to all of us was a simple dual commandment: Love God, love people."
Now, what would happen if we were to realize this level of love and grace that God has given to us? The cross wasn't so that we could get into heaven by the skin of our teeth. Just because our lives were steeped in sin doesn't mean that we are wretched. In fact, God was so crazy about us, loved us SO much that he gave His very best.
Jesus didn't die on that cross so that we could be saved from hell, my friends. He went to the cross because of God's passionate and complete love for all of us. And that means you, too. He valued us so greatly, loved us so completely, and desires us so passionately, that He planned to have Christ crucified from the very beginning of time!
When we start to realize this, even just a little bit, then I believe that we'll begin to take on an entirely new paradigm in our faith. We don't serve Christ because we want to get into heaven. In fact, Ephesians 2:4-6 seems to indicate that we're already there:
Quote...because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus... (Ephesians 2:4-6, NIV)
As Christians, we don't serve Christ because we want to gain His favor. We already have it. We have His completely and totally undeserved favor. We have His love. He can never love us more or less than He already does.
He's never shocked by our actions, never disappointed, and he's never surprised. Scripture says that nothing will separate us from the love of God. His love is complete, whole, and without limit. It has never changed, and it never will. Grace isn't a license to sin. It's simply a message that our sin will not stand in the way of His love.
But, you might be thinking, "You don't know what I've done! There's no way that God could love me, or forgive me."
Do you think that your sin is greater than God's love? Is that it? Or do you think His love isn't good enough for you? My dear friend, it is good enough. It's good enough for you and over six billion others just like you. We can't let a false sense of humility stand in the way of the ultimate grace: God's eternal, complete love.
I believe that God is calling us to stop looking out our own faults and look to His perfection. When we go from naval-gazing to gazing at the beauty of God Himself, suddenly, we're exposed to the clear reality that His love, His glory, and His grace surpass everything. It surpasses our sin, it surpasses our confusion, and it surpasses our own utter lack of grace and love.
Let's "fix our eyes on Jesus" as it says in Hebrews 12:2. When we do, we'll begin to be consumed by His love rather than by our own sin, or the sins of others. Instead of pointing fingers in judgment, we're lifting hands in worship. And better yet, we're encouraging each other in their walk, rather than pointing out each others' faults.
When we walk in grace, and walk in love, we begin to adopt a new way of living. I don't choose to remain faithful to my partner because of legalism. I made that choice because I love him. I made that choice because I know how much he loves me. There's great grace in that simply because we know it's not a matter of not cheating. I just couldn't imagine breaking his heart like that.
With grace, it's not the law that keeps us from sin, it's love. If we truly love God, then our desire is to show our love for Him in all ways. If we truly love Him, then we love those whom he loves. Grace then takes its full effect. Liberty then takes root. Yes, we have complete freedom in Christ. But when our hearts are so captured by grace and love, then our desire is God Himself.
When we begin to walk in this level of grace, my friends, I believe that we'll finally start to see just exactly how much He is really crazy about us. We can explore grace in every way; and we can explore the passion of God for His people.
As we enter into this Easter season, let's meditate on this powerful message of grace and love for all of His people. It is truly amazing grace, in every way imaginable.
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: BeverlyAnn on March 03, 2007, 06:43:00 AM
Post by: BeverlyAnn on March 03, 2007, 06:43:00 AM
Thank you David. Wonderful words (and my favorite hymn).
Never more evident that when the pastor of Lighthouse Baptist in Largo, speaking to the City Commission regarding firing of City Manager Steve (Susan) Stanton said, because she is transitioning from male to female, "If Jesus was in the room tonight, I guarantee He would would want him fired, too."
Bev
QuoteStrangely, grace usually goes out the window when we deal with our fellow man. Far too often, we replace grace with judgment, mercy with wrath, and love with hate.
Never more evident that when the pastor of Lighthouse Baptist in Largo, speaking to the City Commission regarding firing of City Manager Steve (Susan) Stanton said, because she is transitioning from male to female, "If Jesus was in the room tonight, I guarantee He would would want him fired, too."
Bev
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Dryad on March 03, 2007, 01:25:29 PM
Post by: Dryad on March 03, 2007, 01:25:29 PM
I have too often wandered across the type of christians that claim Jesus has saved them, they have been Forgiven, and are Forgiven each time they say they are devoted to Jesus.
So.. They sin all week, and by the end of the week, on their sunday mass, they're miraculously forgiven again.
So.. I think Jesus' Saving is a bit different in nature.
People who follow Jesus are not saved by his sacrifice. Instead, Jesus sacrificed himself so that people could be saved from sin.
Jesus knew people hated his guts for what he said. He was a heretic; he threw away much of the dogma of the time, many ideals. He knew people wanted to kill him, and still he went on with his quest; telling people of universal love, self-sacrifice, and actual values.
He could have stopped, and lived. He chose not to. Because him getting killed would make him a martyr, and people would know what he stood for. And the people who knew could be saved from committing sins, because they'd ask themselves: What of that Jesus fellar? He died for his opinions, and we all know he did what he did for the best of everyone!
So.. people would realize that, and start loving one another.
That's why Jesus saved us, even if we weren't alive when he was. Because we know who he was. At least we know what he stood for. So we've been shown a better part of life, and thát is what can save us.
Grace... I think, David, that by this, the ways of Jesus, you mean Grace. I can be wrong, of course, but tossing this out of the window makes christianity easy; just claim Jesus is your Savior, and voila; you're saved. But it doesn't work like that, now does it? You've got to live the part.
Now; I'm not a christian. As far as religions go, I think I'm pagan over anything. But Jesus still is a great example to everyone. Because he was a holy man in what he did, and what he thought. In his actions; not just in name, or title. It's his love that made him holy; not anything else.
Is being saved, then, salvation, really about making your way to heaven, after you die? Good doggy; here's your reward? Or is being saved, and salvation, really an act of placing some more bricks in the palace of the Kingdom of God that Jesus told about; not the afterlife, but a more friendly, loving, more perfect world?
I hope you can answer this, David, because allthough it might not look it, I'm quite confused by it.
So.. They sin all week, and by the end of the week, on their sunday mass, they're miraculously forgiven again.
So.. I think Jesus' Saving is a bit different in nature.
People who follow Jesus are not saved by his sacrifice. Instead, Jesus sacrificed himself so that people could be saved from sin.
Jesus knew people hated his guts for what he said. He was a heretic; he threw away much of the dogma of the time, many ideals. He knew people wanted to kill him, and still he went on with his quest; telling people of universal love, self-sacrifice, and actual values.
He could have stopped, and lived. He chose not to. Because him getting killed would make him a martyr, and people would know what he stood for. And the people who knew could be saved from committing sins, because they'd ask themselves: What of that Jesus fellar? He died for his opinions, and we all know he did what he did for the best of everyone!
So.. people would realize that, and start loving one another.
That's why Jesus saved us, even if we weren't alive when he was. Because we know who he was. At least we know what he stood for. So we've been shown a better part of life, and thát is what can save us.
Grace... I think, David, that by this, the ways of Jesus, you mean Grace. I can be wrong, of course, but tossing this out of the window makes christianity easy; just claim Jesus is your Savior, and voila; you're saved. But it doesn't work like that, now does it? You've got to live the part.
Now; I'm not a christian. As far as religions go, I think I'm pagan over anything. But Jesus still is a great example to everyone. Because he was a holy man in what he did, and what he thought. In his actions; not just in name, or title. It's his love that made him holy; not anything else.
Is being saved, then, salvation, really about making your way to heaven, after you die? Good doggy; here's your reward? Or is being saved, and salvation, really an act of placing some more bricks in the palace of the Kingdom of God that Jesus told about; not the afterlife, but a more friendly, loving, more perfect world?
I hope you can answer this, David, because allthough it might not look it, I'm quite confused by it.
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Julie Marie on March 03, 2007, 03:02:24 PM
Post by: Julie Marie on March 03, 2007, 03:02:24 PM
David, if I had a pastor like you growing up I never would have lost interest in the church. Thank you.
Julie
Julie
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Omika on March 03, 2007, 04:19:38 PM
Post by: Omika on March 03, 2007, 04:19:38 PM
Truly wise.
David, I have always believed that to love God is to love humanity, and vice versa. I believe that God is the heartbeat of mankind, and all things born of the heart, born of love and understanding towards our fellow man is ultimately the will of God. Is it so heinous to believe this? To believe that religious boundries and differences are unimportant if the universal message is one of fellowship, love, and enlightenment?
I don't believe that God cares for religious semantics. I believe God cares about humanity, and that's all there is to it.
Those who use the scripture and "the will of God" as a pretext to further their own ends and to reinforce their own petty fears or prejudices are the truly wretched, the truly sinful. Not only are they opposed to humanity's progress as a collective, but they are perverting the image of God while remaining completely deaf to His word. Miserable and sad to see.
Sir, you are an enlightened Christian. Touch as many hearts as possible. Don't stop for anything, and fear nothing!
~ Blair
David, I have always believed that to love God is to love humanity, and vice versa. I believe that God is the heartbeat of mankind, and all things born of the heart, born of love and understanding towards our fellow man is ultimately the will of God. Is it so heinous to believe this? To believe that religious boundries and differences are unimportant if the universal message is one of fellowship, love, and enlightenment?
I don't believe that God cares for religious semantics. I believe God cares about humanity, and that's all there is to it.
Those who use the scripture and "the will of God" as a pretext to further their own ends and to reinforce their own petty fears or prejudices are the truly wretched, the truly sinful. Not only are they opposed to humanity's progress as a collective, but they are perverting the image of God while remaining completely deaf to His word. Miserable and sad to see.
Sir, you are an enlightened Christian. Touch as many hearts as possible. Don't stop for anything, and fear nothing!
~ Blair
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: David W. Shelton on March 03, 2007, 07:04:39 PM
Post by: David W. Shelton on March 03, 2007, 07:04:39 PM
Oh, stop it you guys. I blush easily.
Seriously, thank you. If anything I post encourages you, then I'm delighted. Again, thank you.
What a great question! I love the way you put it. Maybe I can rephrase the question this way: Does Christianity mean that I can be self-centered and get my fire insurance, or am I called to something more... to impact the world today?
One theologian said once that the "kingdom of God is the already, but not yet." In my mind, true Christianity is feverishly working to impact the world around us, to bring hope, healing, and love to those who don't have it. To a Christian, he (or she) is not working to "go to heaven." It's a certainty. Like I said in the original post, Scripture indicates that to a point, we're already "in heaven."
Those bricks in the palace of this great Kingdom are a reality, my friend. They are people. When people stand together and show the kind of selfless love that Christ called us to share, that's another brick being put into place of the Kingdom.
Seems to me that the bricks are already being put in place. It's too bad that so many within the Kingdom want to tear it down.
Seriously, thank you. If anything I post encourages you, then I'm delighted. Again, thank you.
Quote from: Dryad on March 03, 2007, 01:25:29 PM
Grace... I think, David, that by this, the ways of Jesus, you mean Grace. I can be wrong, of course, but tossing this out of the window makes christianity easy; just claim Jesus is your Savior, and voila; you're saved. But it doesn't work like that, now does it? You've got to live the part.
Now; I'm not a christian. As far as religions go, I think I'm pagan over anything. But Jesus still is a great example to everyone. Because he was a holy man in what he did, and what he thought. In his actions; not just in name, or title. It's his love that made him holy; not anything else.
Is being saved, then, salvation, really about making your way to heaven, after you die? Good doggy; here's your reward? Or is being saved, and salvation, really an act of placing some more bricks in the palace of the Kingdom of God that Jesus told about; not the afterlife, but a more friendly, loving, more perfect world?
I hope you can answer this, David, because allthough it might not look it, I'm quite confused by it.
What a great question! I love the way you put it. Maybe I can rephrase the question this way: Does Christianity mean that I can be self-centered and get my fire insurance, or am I called to something more... to impact the world today?
One theologian said once that the "kingdom of God is the already, but not yet." In my mind, true Christianity is feverishly working to impact the world around us, to bring hope, healing, and love to those who don't have it. To a Christian, he (or she) is not working to "go to heaven." It's a certainty. Like I said in the original post, Scripture indicates that to a point, we're already "in heaven."
Those bricks in the palace of this great Kingdom are a reality, my friend. They are people. When people stand together and show the kind of selfless love that Christ called us to share, that's another brick being put into place of the Kingdom.
Seems to me that the bricks are already being put in place. It's too bad that so many within the Kingdom want to tear it down.
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Ricki on March 03, 2007, 09:58:29 PM
Post by: Ricki on March 03, 2007, 09:58:29 PM
Thanks david..That was nice
I lack enough love for myself right now but would like to think i exhibit enough grace in my day to day living!
xo
Ricki
I lack enough love for myself right now but would like to think i exhibit enough grace in my day to day living!
xo
Ricki
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Kate on March 03, 2007, 10:10:23 PM
Post by: Kate on March 03, 2007, 10:10:23 PM
Quote from: David W. Shelton on March 03, 2007, 01:29:03 AM
But when grace and love are truly operating in a person's life, they create an entirely new way of life. If a person who has been given much grace, and has been given much love, then their response is both grace and love to the One who gave it in the first place.
There ya go! THERE it is.
BIG hug :)
Kate
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Ricki on March 03, 2007, 10:14:40 PM
Post by: Ricki on March 03, 2007, 10:14:40 PM
Side note:
I apply grace and love to my cooking always!
gotta have that, this is the secret spice you cannot buy in the store!
Ricki ;D
I apply grace and love to my cooking always!
gotta have that, this is the secret spice you cannot buy in the store!
Ricki ;D
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Suzy on March 03, 2007, 10:59:27 PM
Post by: Suzy on March 03, 2007, 10:59:27 PM
Thanks for the good words, David. I could not agree more.
As far as grace being a license to sin, I believe it is just the opposite. When we truly realize how much we have been forigiven, we will turn around and show that love to others. This is why I have reason to doubt so much of what I see in Christendom today. It has more to do with baptized selfishness than it does with Christinity is its purest form: As you put it, love God, love people.
I am so excited to see another Boenhoffer fan on here. Never thought I'd see the day!
I like one definition of grace that puts it this way:
God's
Reconciling
Action
Caressing
Everyone
And I agree that it is love that is our greatest motivation, not fear. And it starts with God's initiative.
True "agape" love is, in my opinion, best defined in John 15:9
"Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love."
It is quite amazing for me to attempt to fathom the depth of the love the Father has for the Son. It is perfect. It is infinite. It is completely devoid of hypocrisy. And this is the very the same love with which Christ has loved us. Our only response? Turn around and abide, or live, in that deep, all-penetrating love. That means that we show that same love to those who need to experience it. That is what Jesus did while on earth. Which leads me to doubt a lot of the junk out there usually paraded as Christianity.
Thanks again, David.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
As far as grace being a license to sin, I believe it is just the opposite. When we truly realize how much we have been forigiven, we will turn around and show that love to others. This is why I have reason to doubt so much of what I see in Christendom today. It has more to do with baptized selfishness than it does with Christinity is its purest form: As you put it, love God, love people.
I am so excited to see another Boenhoffer fan on here. Never thought I'd see the day!
I like one definition of grace that puts it this way:
God's
Reconciling
Action
Caressing
Everyone
And I agree that it is love that is our greatest motivation, not fear. And it starts with God's initiative.
True "agape" love is, in my opinion, best defined in John 15:9
"Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love."
It is quite amazing for me to attempt to fathom the depth of the love the Father has for the Son. It is perfect. It is infinite. It is completely devoid of hypocrisy. And this is the very the same love with which Christ has loved us. Our only response? Turn around and abide, or live, in that deep, all-penetrating love. That means that we show that same love to those who need to experience it. That is what Jesus did while on earth. Which leads me to doubt a lot of the junk out there usually paraded as Christianity.
Thanks again, David.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Kimberly on May 28, 2007, 05:13:37 AM
Post by: Kimberly on May 28, 2007, 05:13:37 AM
More of a response to the title, "Grace: a license to sin?" Absolutely NOT!
When Dryad said "You've got to live the part.", I think he is right and perhaps that is enough, but it is worth expounding upon. You have to think the part, feel the part, BE the part. That may sound hard but once you are there it really is not.
Anyway, just 'thoughts'.
Sand in the wind...
When Dryad said "You've got to live the part.", I think he is right and perhaps that is enough, but it is worth expounding upon. You have to think the part, feel the part, BE the part. That may sound hard but once you are there it really is not.
Anyway, just 'thoughts'.
Sand in the wind...
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Seshatneferw on May 28, 2007, 06:38:59 AM
Post by: Seshatneferw on May 28, 2007, 06:38:59 AM
Well, yes, kind of.
It's not that living the part is a condition for grace; rather, it's the other way 'round. Once you believe God will accept you unconditionally, you will start to extend a similar attitude towards your fellows (although in a humanly imperfect way). It's a kind of leading by example thing.
In somewhat cynical terms, you also have to. If God's going to accept anyone who comes to Him, then in order to be with Him you must be willing to be with the others He'll have. Still, it is unconditional in the sense that He'll let you in if you want in.
Nfr
It's not that living the part is a condition for grace; rather, it's the other way 'round. Once you believe God will accept you unconditionally, you will start to extend a similar attitude towards your fellows (although in a humanly imperfect way). It's a kind of leading by example thing.
In somewhat cynical terms, you also have to. If God's going to accept anyone who comes to Him, then in order to be with Him you must be willing to be with the others He'll have. Still, it is unconditional in the sense that He'll let you in if you want in.
Nfr
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: cindianna_jones on May 28, 2007, 12:56:12 PM
Post by: cindianna_jones on May 28, 2007, 12:56:12 PM
I think that from purely a doctrine perspective, you receive the grace of God by accepting him. It is freely offered, all you need do is take it in. And you can't "take it in" by mouthing the words. For God would know your soul.
I've had a hard time dealing with the concept of "sin". I believe that the pure in heart need not worry about "sin", for this person does not deliberately commit these acts. If so, they are not intentional. God has no need to forgive, for the person will self rectify and resolve his/her problems. This truly is grace. It is a natural product of love and charity.
Cindi
I've had a hard time dealing with the concept of "sin". I believe that the pure in heart need not worry about "sin", for this person does not deliberately commit these acts. If so, they are not intentional. God has no need to forgive, for the person will self rectify and resolve his/her problems. This truly is grace. It is a natural product of love and charity.
Cindi
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: rhonda13000 on May 28, 2007, 09:49:50 PM
Post by: rhonda13000 on May 28, 2007, 09:49:50 PM
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Romans 6:1,2.
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
Romans 6:1,2.
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Hazumu on May 28, 2007, 11:00:51 PM
Post by: Hazumu on May 28, 2007, 11:00:51 PM
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 28, 2007, 12:56:12 PM
I think that from purely a doctrine perspective, you receive the grace of God by accepting him. It is freely offered, all you need do is take it in. And you can't "take it in" by mouthing the words. For God would know your soul.
That pretty much defines the nurturing Christians. All you have to do is really accept God. And it matters not if your neighbor doesn't accept your God, or god in general. It's okay...
Karen
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Suzy on May 28, 2007, 11:08:12 PM
Post by: Suzy on May 28, 2007, 11:08:12 PM
Heb 12:1
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us."
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us."
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: The Middle Way on May 29, 2007, 08:04:06 PM
Post by: The Middle Way on May 29, 2007, 08:04:06 PM
My question is this:
Once there is this quality, 'grace', and one is forgiven, is it considered (you know, theologically) that the person is hence operating with a clean slate, more or less?
Say you're A. Hitler, and the deeds are done, you know how that went down, but nonetheless, the Pope has the secret word for tonight, and you're feeling it; Everything's cool, now, between you and your 'creator', your 'universe'...?
I have spoken at some length with 'one or more' persons of your faith, and what I tend to get back by way of an answer is 'No, there is Judgment, in such cases', or some sound like that.
(the devil in the details which I am pointing to is 'whither karma*'?)
Any thoughts?
tmw
(*: you can just use 'natural law', or 'actions begetting like actions', if you prefer, to sub for this term)
Ok this does figure into it, then: For God would know your soul. Does this, by grace, get to be some kind of a new soul - magic wand time, now, let's be honest - or, & this is really my thrust: is there going to be work involved.
See, it is difficult for me to get the magic bullet concept; each one of us has invested in a life, and there are pluses and minuses, more subtle than ary scorecard, and this *poof* factor - "hey, now I'm golden, grace was just the ticket!" - seems somewhat childish to me.
Once there is this quality, 'grace', and one is forgiven, is it considered (you know, theologically) that the person is hence operating with a clean slate, more or less?
Say you're A. Hitler, and the deeds are done, you know how that went down, but nonetheless, the Pope has the secret word for tonight, and you're feeling it; Everything's cool, now, between you and your 'creator', your 'universe'...?
I have spoken at some length with 'one or more' persons of your faith, and what I tend to get back by way of an answer is 'No, there is Judgment, in such cases', or some sound like that.
(the devil in the details which I am pointing to is 'whither karma*'?)
Any thoughts?
tmw
(*: you can just use 'natural law', or 'actions begetting like actions', if you prefer, to sub for this term)
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 28, 2007, 12:56:12 PM
I think that from purely a doctrine perspective, you receive the grace of God by accepting him. It is freely offered, all you need do is take it in. And you can't "take it in" by mouthing the words. For God would know your soul.
Ok this does figure into it, then: For God would know your soul. Does this, by grace, get to be some kind of a new soul - magic wand time, now, let's be honest - or, & this is really my thrust: is there going to be work involved.
See, it is difficult for me to get the magic bullet concept; each one of us has invested in a life, and there are pluses and minuses, more subtle than ary scorecard, and this *poof* factor - "hey, now I'm golden, grace was just the ticket!" - seems somewhat childish to me.
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: cindianna_jones on May 29, 2007, 09:21:47 PM
Post by: cindianna_jones on May 29, 2007, 09:21:47 PM
TMW... god works in mysterious ways. ;)
Okay.. from purely a doctrinal perspective.... Christ actually physically suffered for our sins in the garden of Gethsemane prior to his crucifiction. He was the only one who could suffer the anguish and pain for the sins of the world for he was the son of God. So to accept this vicarious gift, we need accept him and take upon us his name. Now this isn't to say you can get the get out of free jail card. If you don't repent and accept this gift in the true spirit it is offered, it is void. This period he spent there is called the "atonement". When you hear that Christ "died for our sins", that isn't quite actually correct, according to the scripture. For anyone can die. Christ's actual suffering for our sins preceded his death.
Now the second part of the "miracle of Christ" is the resurection. He rose from the grave and through this miracle enabled the same for every person ever born. This gift is unconditional. Now some Christian faiths believe that somehow his corporal state no longer exists for some reason... making me wonder just what it is exactly we are to expect from the resurrection. Anyone care to comment?
Golly gee whiz, you're turning me into a preacher!
Cindi
Okay.. from purely a doctrinal perspective.... Christ actually physically suffered for our sins in the garden of Gethsemane prior to his crucifiction. He was the only one who could suffer the anguish and pain for the sins of the world for he was the son of God. So to accept this vicarious gift, we need accept him and take upon us his name. Now this isn't to say you can get the get out of free jail card. If you don't repent and accept this gift in the true spirit it is offered, it is void. This period he spent there is called the "atonement". When you hear that Christ "died for our sins", that isn't quite actually correct, according to the scripture. For anyone can die. Christ's actual suffering for our sins preceded his death.
Now the second part of the "miracle of Christ" is the resurection. He rose from the grave and through this miracle enabled the same for every person ever born. This gift is unconditional. Now some Christian faiths believe that somehow his corporal state no longer exists for some reason... making me wonder just what it is exactly we are to expect from the resurrection. Anyone care to comment?
Golly gee whiz, you're turning me into a preacher!
Cindi
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: rhonda13000 on May 29, 2007, 09:22:57 PM
Post by: rhonda13000 on May 29, 2007, 09:22:57 PM
Quote from: Kristi on May 28, 2007, 11:08:12 PM
Heb 12:1
"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us."
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)
:)
[Smiling and nodding...]
Very good. :)
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: The Middle Way on May 29, 2007, 09:31:39 PM
Post by: The Middle Way on May 29, 2007, 09:31:39 PM
DISCLAIMER:
These are the questionings of a questioner. Neither this station nor its sponsors necessarily endorse these remarks...
First of all, ye is a borned preacher and ye knows it...
"this isn't to say you can get the get out of free jail card. If you don't repent and accept this gift in the true spirit it is offered, it is void. "
I get that, only it does not answer the question. It is STILL the get out of jail free card, only, now, depends on the Mystery of The Secret Word For Tonite.
Same problemo, doctoro:
Whither karma.
tmw
&, just for the sheer heck of it:
Purely from a doctrinal perspective... Marilyn Monroe's actual suffering for our sins preceded her death.
Are we having redemption yet, Zippy?
These are the questionings of a questioner. Neither this station nor its sponsors necessarily endorse these remarks...
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 29, 2007, 09:21:47 PM
TMW... god works in mysterious ways. ;)
Okay.. from purely a doctrinal perspective.... Christ actually physically suffered for our sins in the garden of Gethsemane prior to his crucifiction. He was the only one who could suffer the anguish and pain for the sins of the world for he was the son of God. So to accept this vicarious gift, we need accept him and take upon us his name. Now this isn't to say you can get the get out of free jail card. If you don't repent and accept this gift in the true spirit it is offered, it is void. This period he spent there is called the "atonement". When you hear that Christ "died for our sins", that isn't quite actually correct, according to the scripture. For anyone can die. Christ's actual suffering for our sins preceded his death.
Now the second part of the "miracle of Christ" is the resurection. He rose from the grave and through this miracle enabled the same for every person ever born. This gift is unconditional. Now some Christian faiths believe that somehow his corporal state no longer exists for some reason... making me wonder just what it is exactly we are to expect from the resurrection. Anyone care to comment?
Golly gee whiz, you're turning me into a preacher!
First of all, ye is a borned preacher and ye knows it...
"this isn't to say you can get the get out of free jail card. If you don't repent and accept this gift in the true spirit it is offered, it is void. "
I get that, only it does not answer the question. It is STILL the get out of jail free card, only, now, depends on the Mystery of The Secret Word For Tonite.
Same problemo, doctoro:
Whither karma.
tmw
&, just for the sheer heck of it:
Purely from a doctrinal perspective... Marilyn Monroe's actual suffering for our sins preceded her death.
Are we having redemption yet, Zippy?
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: rhonda13000 on May 29, 2007, 09:53:09 PM
Post by: rhonda13000 on May 29, 2007, 09:53:09 PM
Quote from: The Middle Way on May 29, 2007, 08:04:06 PM
My question is this:
Once there is this quality, 'grace', and one is forgiven, is it considered (you know, theologically) that the person is hence operating with a clean slate, more or less?
Say you're A. Hitler, and the deeds are done, you know how that went down, but nonetheless, the Pope has the secret word for tonight, and you're feeling it; Everything's cool, now, between you and your 'creator', your 'universe'...?
I have spoken at some length with 'one or more' persons of your faith, and what I tend to get back by way of an answer is 'No, there is Judgment, in such cases', or some sound like that.
(the devil in the details which I am pointing to is 'whither karma*'?)
Any thoughts?
tmw
(*: you can just use 'natural law', or 'actions begetting like actions', if you prefer, to sub for this term)Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 28, 2007, 12:56:12 PM
I think that from purely a doctrine perspective, you receive the grace of God by accepting him. It is freely offered, all you need do is take it in. And you can't "take it in" by mouthing the words. For God would know your soul.
Ok this does figure into it, then: For God would know your soul. Does this, by grace, get to be some kind of a new soul - magic wand time, now, let's be honest - or, & this is really my thrust: is there going to be work involved.
See, it is difficult for me to get the magic bullet concept; each one of us has invested in a life, and there are pluses and minuses, more subtle than ary scorecard, and this *poof* factor - "hey, now I'm golden, grace was just the ticket!" - seems somewhat childish to me.
As repulsive to perhaps most this will sound, if you truly are sorry for what you have done [and not just because you happened to get caught] and you truly are determined to repent of the act committed and wish not to repeat it and you have met His conditions for initial entry into His Kingdom, He will indeed forgive you and the sin will charged to you in the Judgment to come,
"This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
1 John 2
"My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."
I John 1:5-10; 1 John 2:1-6.
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Kimberly on May 29, 2007, 10:37:29 PM
Post by: Kimberly on May 29, 2007, 10:37:29 PM
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 29, 2007, 09:21:47 PMDon't be too surprised if it is on going, albeit the context is different.
Christ's actual suffering for our sins preceded his death.
Two other thoughts, you guys so do not give yourselves any credit. What makes you think someone else thinks you should 'suffer for your sins'? Do you think you are so unrighteous?
*shrug* Consider that you are blind to so much right now.
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: rhonda13000 on May 29, 2007, 11:13:59 PM
Post by: rhonda13000 on May 29, 2007, 11:13:59 PM
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 28, 2007, 12:56:12 PM
I think that from purely a doctrine perspective, you receive the grace of God by accepting him. It is freely offered, all you need do is take it in. And you can't "take it in" by mouthing the words. For God would know your soul.
I've had a hard time dealing with the concept of "sin". I believe that the pure in heart need not worry about "sin", for this person does not deliberately commit these acts. If so, they are not intentional. God has no need to forgive, for the person will self rectify and resolve his/her problems. This truly is grace. It is a natural product of love and charity.
Cindi
No.
That equation is incomplete and there are more elements to it, than mere acceptance and assent.
This discussion is necessarily contingent upon what standard is being employed for comparative analysis and authority.
And it surely is not you nor I, beloved sister:
"Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth."
John 17:17
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: cindianna_jones on May 30, 2007, 12:02:17 AM
Post by: cindianna_jones on May 30, 2007, 12:02:17 AM
Hey, I don't necessarily believe what I preach! ;) But this was my interpretation way back when in another life when I was caught up in the study of the doctrines. Mind you, I do not take light what others may believe. Certainly there are many interpretations of the good book. I have heard far too many interpretations to take any of it too seriously one way or another. I'm not so sure that minor differences in how we understand it are that important if we are true believers. After all, if God wanted us to all believe the same thing, don'tchya think he would have made it a teency weency bit more clear? ;)
Peace be unto you.
Cindi
Peace be unto you.
Cindi
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Kimberly on May 30, 2007, 12:34:29 AM
Post by: Kimberly on May 30, 2007, 12:34:29 AM
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 30, 2007, 12:02:17 AMAfter all, if God wanted us to all believe the same thing, don'tchya think he would have made it a teency weency bit more clear? ;)
*chortles quietly* Find your own truth my dear. Enlightenment can not be taught.
Either that or it isn't; I do know that you won't be told, no more so than I. (Heh, not that that means anything to you.) I am not sure if there are 'road markers' along your path, but I do know there are in mine. *grin* Trust yourself.
*shrug*
Something discovered is of more value than something taught.
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: cindianna_jones on May 30, 2007, 01:13:07 AM
Post by: cindianna_jones on May 30, 2007, 01:13:07 AM
Hey Kimberly,
I've found my own way to be sure. And no, I do not "feel guilty for my sins". That sin thing is hard for me to grasp... sort of like the native American getting the idea of property ownership. I'll never latch back on to it. It is something that I cast aside as a matter of survival once and I'm glad that it has buried in the dust.
I like your thought of discovering something for yourself. This is the way that I see it:
Being taught < reading and learning it < experiencing first hand < teaching to others
I've found that when I teach, I really have to give the topic of consideration some real introspection.
In any case, the doctrinal aspects of religion are mostly ignored by most people. They aren't entirely sure what the dogma is that they follow. And I really think that is just fine.
Cindi
I've found my own way to be sure. And no, I do not "feel guilty for my sins". That sin thing is hard for me to grasp... sort of like the native American getting the idea of property ownership. I'll never latch back on to it. It is something that I cast aside as a matter of survival once and I'm glad that it has buried in the dust.
I like your thought of discovering something for yourself. This is the way that I see it:
Being taught < reading and learning it < experiencing first hand < teaching to others
I've found that when I teach, I really have to give the topic of consideration some real introspection.
In any case, the doctrinal aspects of religion are mostly ignored by most people. They aren't entirely sure what the dogma is that they follow. And I really think that is just fine.
Cindi
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Kimberly on May 30, 2007, 03:00:07 AM
Post by: Kimberly on May 30, 2007, 03:00:07 AM
Ah, I don't know. Willful ignorance is never a good thing. But in the same vein I do not think blindly following the leader is any better. Look at the leader to find the path yes, but walk it yourself. In the context of this thread, leader could be pastor.
But this goes back to the experience to learn idea I suppose. You are right though by the way, teaching is a wonderful way to really know a subject. But, I do not think enlightenment can be taught. *shrug* I suppose the .. state is too far removed from anything the majority of people understand to be able to grasp it sufficiently. It's not that they can't, just that they don't see the path. (and to be fair I do not speak of a religious path to 'God'; albeit the goal is similar. But I think the majority of ideas of that being are very... confused. Religion in general has not helped matters any, in my opinion.)
But even so, as long as we all live nice, happy, productive lives everything is a-ok right? ;)
*grin*
The keyword is actually missing from that. As long as we LEARN everything is a-ok... Or at least something similar to an a-ok :P
In the context of this place one could look at transsexualism (etc) and see quite a bit of learning going on...
But I digress, what is, is not quite as relevant to religion as religion would like; I feel.
An please keep in mind I could be all wrong; This human context is confusing, lol.
;) But as long as we learn it is all right. :P
But this goes back to the experience to learn idea I suppose. You are right though by the way, teaching is a wonderful way to really know a subject. But, I do not think enlightenment can be taught. *shrug* I suppose the .. state is too far removed from anything the majority of people understand to be able to grasp it sufficiently. It's not that they can't, just that they don't see the path. (and to be fair I do not speak of a religious path to 'God'; albeit the goal is similar. But I think the majority of ideas of that being are very... confused. Religion in general has not helped matters any, in my opinion.)
But even so, as long as we all live nice, happy, productive lives everything is a-ok right? ;)
*grin*
The keyword is actually missing from that. As long as we LEARN everything is a-ok... Or at least something similar to an a-ok :P
In the context of this place one could look at transsexualism (etc) and see quite a bit of learning going on...
But I digress, what is, is not quite as relevant to religion as religion would like; I feel.
An please keep in mind I could be all wrong; This human context is confusing, lol.
;) But as long as we learn it is all right. :P
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Suzy on May 30, 2007, 10:19:34 AM
Post by: Suzy on May 30, 2007, 10:19:34 AM
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 30, 2007, 01:13:07 AM
I've found that when I teach, I really have to give the topic of consideration some real introspection.
I've found that Cindi is quite good at explaining doctrines, even the ones she does not agree with. And because she can explain them does not necessarily mean that she believes them.
I've tried, for the most part, to stay out of this. This discussion has gone outside the bounds of the question asked. Good discussion, just not responsive to the issue at hand. But the original question:
1. assumes that there is such a thing as sin
2. assumes that those who ask are forgiven (grace)
So within those parameters, scripture is very clear that the answer is NO. In fact, it is those who have experienced the grace of God who have a larger responsibility to live lives that are different, and constantly grow in faith and good works. This is called "sanctification." There is no license to sin, ever. Not before grace and certainly not after.
Peace!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Lisbeth on May 30, 2007, 01:17:00 PM
Post by: Lisbeth on May 30, 2007, 01:17:00 PM
This whole subject is tied up with lots of other pieces. One of them is "forgiveness." Specifically, how do you forgive someone who has harmed you deeply? In some ways forgiving is more important than being forgiven. If you do not forgive, resentment festers inside you, maybe for years. Does the person who hurt you even care? "You forgive me? Gee, I didn't know you thought I needed to be forgiven." That's how alot of Christians deal with grace, as a pro forma ritual that has little personal significance. "Ya, ya, god, I sinned. Thanks for the grace."
This whole grace transaction is the main reason I have been paying attention to what happened in South Africa whan Apartheid ended. They formed a body called The Truth and Reconciliation Board. It's function was to facilitate both sides in the conflict telling the other that they accept responsibility for the harm they had caused, and to be reconciled to the others. When someone can say to you, "I hurt you badly," then it becomes possible to say, "I forgive you."
In the church there is a thing called Confession and Absolution. It is intended as a way to say, "I have done hurtful things, and I am sorry," and to hear the words, "You are forgiven." It is supposed to be in this context that grace happens. But grace doesn't just happen. Christianity says that grace cost god dearly, and if we are to honor that cost, we must work at it too.
This whole grace transaction is the main reason I have been paying attention to what happened in South Africa whan Apartheid ended. They formed a body called The Truth and Reconciliation Board. It's function was to facilitate both sides in the conflict telling the other that they accept responsibility for the harm they had caused, and to be reconciled to the others. When someone can say to you, "I hurt you badly," then it becomes possible to say, "I forgive you."
In the church there is a thing called Confession and Absolution. It is intended as a way to say, "I have done hurtful things, and I am sorry," and to hear the words, "You are forgiven." It is supposed to be in this context that grace happens. But grace doesn't just happen. Christianity says that grace cost god dearly, and if we are to honor that cost, we must work at it too.
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: The Middle Way on May 30, 2007, 01:51:46 PM
Post by: The Middle Way on May 30, 2007, 01:51:46 PM
Quote from: rhonda13000 on May 29, 2007, 09:53:09 PMQuote from: The Middle Way on May 29, 2007, 08:04:06 PM
See, it is difficult for me to get the magic bullet concept; each one of us has invested in a life, and there are pluses and minuses, more subtle than ary scorecard, and this *poof* factor - "hey, now I'm golden, grace was just the ticket!" - seems somewhat childish to me.
As repulsive to perhaps most this will sound, if you truly are sorry for what you have done [and not just because you happened to get caught] and you truly are determined to repent of the act committed and wish not to repeat it and you have met His conditions for initial entry into His Kingdom, He will indeed forgive you and the sin will charged to you in the Judgment to come,
"This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
1 John 2
"My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."
I John 1:5-10; 1 John 2:1-6.
This still does not answer the question, and does not appear to begin to. You're Hitler. (Or Bush, pick your villain.) You've done some damage on a planet that will span generations and continents to say the very least. (I am using an extreme example for argument's sake, but NB: this applies to Everyone.)
But now, You Get Right With God, through the special agent, and now, virtually in an instant, it appears to be clean slate time. The only exception you state to this is the one I always get: and the sin will charged to you in the Judgment to come, but then I see language like 'Jesus cleanses you of all sin' and 'perfected in God', and it just sounds like magical thinking.
See, in my view our time on a planet is inextricably tied in with all those we have contact with, have thus impacted, and is all probably tied in with all our ancestors, et cetera...
So, it's somewhat complex. My idea is that all 'souls' are part of the same origin and are all of a piece. In the same boat. Let me contrast a different 'religion's' idea at the risk of appearing a proselytist (I am not, I do not practice): Nirvana is the 'Heaven'. The highest aspiration is that of the Boddhisattva. One defers her liberation unto Nirvana until every other part of the puzzle, every being, has that capability. Can also get there from here.
This 'personal' salvation, well it seems so glib, do you know what I mean?
The other real problem I have with this, is that the whole idea appears to lead to a sense of No Responsibility, that as the topic title suggests, gives license.
I can feel grace. I get, more or less, what you guys speak of in that word. I am not getting that 'this Bud's for You' aspect of it, however. Is there the same quality of grace for Mother Theresa as for Adolph H.? How does that work, exactly?
Hey, I've seen quasi-miraculous stuff happen, even in me, and, guess what? There was work involved, it may have been subtle, but work was making stuff happen, all over the place. This other business seems childish, to me. That impression is only reinforced by a phrase like: "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin."
I get the comfort factor, I get the idea of forgiveness, I just cannot imagine this working. Independent Mysterious Redemption, no one has to do any work but just there for the asking.
Maybe it's a Religious Experience kind of deal and you can't explain it. (I am skeptical of that, but that's another topic.)
tmw
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: cindianna_jones on May 30, 2007, 03:17:41 PM
Post by: cindianna_jones on May 30, 2007, 03:17:41 PM
TMW,
In the faith that I was reared, there were a couple of things for which "grace" or the atonement would not cover you. Murder is in there. "Sons of perdition" don't receive forgiveness. That title is earned.
Cindi
In the faith that I was reared, there were a couple of things for which "grace" or the atonement would not cover you. Murder is in there. "Sons of perdition" don't receive forgiveness. That title is earned.
Cindi
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Hazumu on May 30, 2007, 10:20:20 PM
Post by: Hazumu on May 30, 2007, 10:20:20 PM
How can you 'earn' something by doing something you can't choose not to do -- or at least not-doing has larger personal consequences than doing?
Back to the concept of grace. I believe there are (at least) two definitions of grace.
One is that God loves you so much that he just gives you grace -- it's free for the taking. You don't have to 'earn' it or 'work for' it -- you just accept God and you are filled with God's grace. You can choose not to take it, though, and God isn't upset with you. It's a personal thing between you and God. There's an endless supply -- take as much (or as little) as you need. You can even lose it, for a while. God understands. People go through these periods, and might even benefit from the experience in the long run. There's more when you're ready. God loves you as you are.
Another is that God bought this grace dearly. It's your ticket to the eternal afterlife in heaven. But you better be good, and you better be sorry when you do bad, because you've angered God for squandering it and getting your grace plussed back up will cost you. And if you haven't yet made your deal with God for enough of a share of grace when Gabriel blows that trumpet and signals that the grace-acquisition period is over and now we're going to count up each and everybody's grace-points and really see who's going to heaven and who's not, then you should'a been gooder, you should'a been sooner making your grace-deal with God. Also there's a concept of deserving-ness I see more heavily in this group. That one deserve wealth, the one over there deserves poverty. People who don't toe Gods (and our) line deserve no-grace.
It's interesting that one group sees grace as being unlimited, while another sees it as something scarce and valuable (and is coveted...)
And, Cindi -- The Pearl of Great -- what? ;) >:D
Karen
Back to the concept of grace. I believe there are (at least) two definitions of grace.
One is that God loves you so much that he just gives you grace -- it's free for the taking. You don't have to 'earn' it or 'work for' it -- you just accept God and you are filled with God's grace. You can choose not to take it, though, and God isn't upset with you. It's a personal thing between you and God. There's an endless supply -- take as much (or as little) as you need. You can even lose it, for a while. God understands. People go through these periods, and might even benefit from the experience in the long run. There's more when you're ready. God loves you as you are.
Another is that God bought this grace dearly. It's your ticket to the eternal afterlife in heaven. But you better be good, and you better be sorry when you do bad, because you've angered God for squandering it and getting your grace plussed back up will cost you. And if you haven't yet made your deal with God for enough of a share of grace when Gabriel blows that trumpet and signals that the grace-acquisition period is over and now we're going to count up each and everybody's grace-points and really see who's going to heaven and who's not, then you should'a been gooder, you should'a been sooner making your grace-deal with God. Also there's a concept of deserving-ness I see more heavily in this group. That one deserve wealth, the one over there deserves poverty. People who don't toe Gods (and our) line deserve no-grace.
It's interesting that one group sees grace as being unlimited, while another sees it as something scarce and valuable (and is coveted...)
And, Cindi -- The Pearl of Great -- what? ;) >:D
Karen
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: cindianna_jones on May 30, 2007, 11:29:08 PM
Post by: cindianna_jones on May 30, 2007, 11:29:08 PM
Karen wrote:
The correct answer is "Price", but I prefer airheads myself.
Karen, I like your first description of grace. This is how I see it. I would prefer to have a god who loved me as opposed to one who held a carrot beyond reach in front of my face all my life.
Cindi
QuoteAnd, Cindi -- The Pearl of Great -- what?
The correct answer is "Price", but I prefer airheads myself.
Karen, I like your first description of grace. This is how I see it. I would prefer to have a god who loved me as opposed to one who held a carrot beyond reach in front of my face all my life.
Cindi
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Kimberly on May 31, 2007, 12:44:15 AM
Post by: Kimberly on May 31, 2007, 12:44:15 AM
If it means anything the first description is closer to what I know of truth.
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: Suzy on May 31, 2007, 09:51:39 AM
Post by: Suzy on May 31, 2007, 09:51:39 AM
Actually I like the first definition better than the second. But taken to its extreme it is a pretty good definition of what Dietrich Bonhoeffer termed "cheap grace." In other words, it's free but it's not cheap. It did cost Christ his life.
While the supply may indeed be endless, most of us need more than we realize, and receive more than we could ever imagine. If we could earn it somehow, it would no longer be grace. And receiving God's grace does not mean that we are now simply on trial in a new and stricter way. It means that we have received. Period. I do not agree that we can lose it. But I do believe that our awareness of it is sometimes greater than at other times. Now I do believe, as I said earlier, that those who receive should want to live lives that are different. But this does not happen due to fear of some kind of retribution. That, again, would not be grace. It happens because of our loving response to the God who loved us first. Our hearts are changed, not by being afraid of God, but by experiencing love in its highest form.
Here is my favorite definite of grace:
God's
Reconciling
Action
Caressing
Everyone
Peace, all!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
While the supply may indeed be endless, most of us need more than we realize, and receive more than we could ever imagine. If we could earn it somehow, it would no longer be grace. And receiving God's grace does not mean that we are now simply on trial in a new and stricter way. It means that we have received. Period. I do not agree that we can lose it. But I do believe that our awareness of it is sometimes greater than at other times. Now I do believe, as I said earlier, that those who receive should want to live lives that are different. But this does not happen due to fear of some kind of retribution. That, again, would not be grace. It happens because of our loving response to the God who loved us first. Our hearts are changed, not by being afraid of God, but by experiencing love in its highest form.
Here is my favorite definite of grace:
God's
Reconciling
Action
Caressing
Everyone
Peace, all!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Title: Re: Grace: a license to sin?
Post by: rhonda13000 on May 31, 2007, 05:38:01 PM
Post by: rhonda13000 on May 31, 2007, 05:38:01 PM
"This still does not answer the question, and does not appear to begin to."
In fact, I did.
You simply prefer to designate yourself as a [or the] source of spiritual authority.
In other words, 'possible' [it's Actual, in reality] moral and spiritual guidance and directives, from any external source, are excluded as irrelevant and unacceptable, in deference to your own intuitions, feelings and desires.
I did answer your query, but you are not interested in the answer.
In fact, I did.
You simply prefer to designate yourself as a [or the] source of spiritual authority.
In other words, 'possible' [it's Actual, in reality] moral and spiritual guidance and directives, from any external source, are excluded as irrelevant and unacceptable, in deference to your own intuitions, feelings and desires.
I did answer your query, but you are not interested in the answer.