Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I was reading wikipedia about the definition of vagina and it is defined on that site and various others as a "fibromuscular tubular tract, leading from the uterus to the exterior female body". So basically the vagina is a entire structure which includes the female reproductive organs including the uterus, fallopian tubes, cervix, and everything on the outside which is defined only as the vulva. So i was wondering since the vagina is a entire complex structure that includes the internal organs, why do we refer to SRS procedures as Vaginoplasty? since technically the surgery would only construct the outside which is referred to only as the vulva. Would it be more correct if we referred to vaginoplasty as vulvaplasty? and im not going to get into the whole argument of "some gg's also have certain problems" im only referring to the majority of females who have normal function of their sexual organs and correct female chromosomes XX only. The reason why i ask this because i didnt really know the actual definition of the word until read it, i always assumed vagina was simply the outside.

As your wikipedia definition states, the vagina is the tube that leads "from the uterus to the exterior", so it doesn't include the uterus or any of the internal organs, it just connects the uterus to the outside world (and to the vulva).

A vaginoplasty uses existing tissue to create a vagina, i.e. a tube that runs into the body from the outside - and also involves some sculpting of the exterior to produce a vulva and sometimes labia too. In the case of a vaginoplasty, the created vagina doesn't lead anywhere inside, so the internal end of the tube is closed off.

It's not an ideal word, but then "vagina" itself is ambiguous these days, since people do more generally use it to refer to both the vagina and the vulva/labia collectively, which is maybe what caused your confusion about it being "simply the outside". It's an inexact term used inexactly :).

I think that vagina is commonly used incorrectly. It actually is only the hole itself leading to the uterus, so vaginoplasty is actually constructing a vagina. The vulva is only the exterior.

I think the definition of vagina is changing, because so many people do use the word for the vulva as well. If enough people make a linguistic mistake consistently, the mistake becomes the new meaning.

I knew about the vulva, but I thought it was all just an umbrella term.  Hmmm...  Mia has learned something new tonight.

The vaginal canal is the vagina. The labia minora and majora comprise the exterior, surrounding the entrance to the vaginal canal. At the end of the vaginal canal is the cervix, followed by the uterus and fallopian tubes. The vagina begins at the external opening to the vaginal canal and ends at the cervix.

The etymology of the term "vaginoplasty" probably lies in the construction of a faux-vaginal pocket by the process. The term does fail to account for construction of the vulva, but then again the term serves its purpose in that everyone understands what is meant.

SRS creates the look of a vagina. But the vagina is technically false, as it does not have the cervix, ovaries, ova etc... It technically is just a reconstructed penis/scrotum in the configuration to resemble a vajajay.

However, not even doctors can tell the difference between a neovagina and a gg vagina.

i dont think we can redefine what the medical community has already defined....I had vaginoplasty which if you break the root word from the suffix.......vagino=vagina  plasty=surgical correction   taken directly from Stedmans medical terminology

Medical terms change too, but yeah anatomical terms change a lot lot slower, if at all. But I wasn't referring to vagina as a medical term, but as a word in the english language. Once Stedman's has a different (not just more specific) definition of a word than the OED, then the Stedman's version becomes professional jargon.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 30, 2011, 04:05:35 AM
SRS creates the look of a vagina. But the vagina is technically false, as it does not have the cervix, ovaries, ova etc... It technically is just a reconstructed penis/scrotum in the configuration to resemble a vajajay.

However, not even doctors can tell the difference between a neovagina and a gg vagina.

Technicalities aside, a vagina is a vagina. Would you tell a woman who had a hysterectomy that she no longer has a vagina just because it doesn't lead to a uterus?

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 30, 2011, 04:05:35 AM
SRS creates the look of a vagina. But the vagina is technically false, as it does not have the cervix, ovaries, ova etc... It technically is just a reconstructed penis/scrotum in the configuration to resemble a vajajay.

However, not even doctors can tell the difference between a neovagina and a gg vagina.

doctors can't tell the difference because a penis and vulva really aren't hugely different. they are just formed differently. they have the same nerves and material.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on November 01, 2011, 11:12:18 PM
doctors can't tell the difference because a penis and vulva really aren't hugely different. they are just formed differently. they have the same nerves and material.

If they have the same material...where is my ova and ovum?

There is something called polymorphism where the organ changes over time to be exactly what it was constructed to be- a real vagina.  The tissue actually changes.  Here is an interesting article, with references you can check, that explains a little about this process (the emphasis is mine):

QuoteNeo-vaginal Lining Becomes Indistinguishable from "Normal" Vaginal Tissue

by M. Italiano

Recent attempts at vaginoplasty for transsexuals have utilized a variety of techniques, including split-thickness and full-thickness skin grafts, penile inversion procedures, and sigmoid-colon methods.

Although the advantages and disadvantages of each continue to be debated, many stated advantages are clearly exaggerated or are erroneous. For instance, Masters and Johnson's (1966) pioneering work on the artificially-constructed vagina clearly demonstrates that "the method of creating an artificial vaginal barrel is incidental, since the functional reaction patterns of artificial vaginas are identical regardless of how they are constituted" (p.101). This statement includes behavior during arousal and orgasm as well as lubrication, a subject steeped in controversy.

Some surgeons opt for the use of sigmoid-colon methods in the belief that this provides an advantage of lubrication secreted by colon mucosa. Other surgeons employ mucosal flaps from the urethra to supplement penile inversion for the purpose of providing lubrication. They believe lubrication can't be achieved by the use of skin grafts or penile inversion. This is untrue.

There is much to be learned from non-transsexual women who have had surgery for "inadequate" vaginas. From months to sometimes years after skin grafting, the graft loses all of its skin properties and adapts to its environment, becoming a mucosa which takes on "the exact cytology, gross and microscopic, of a normal vagina" (Sherfey, 1973). Masters and Johnson state, "Suffice it to say that on the basis of pure cytologic evaluation, it is impossible to differentiate the epithelial cells taken from the artificial vaginas of Subject 'A' (when under the influence of adequate hormonal replacement) or Subject 'B' from those of a normal vaginal mucosal smear" (Masters & Johnson, 1961, p. 203).

Some surgeons disagree, stating that the tissue is not mucosa, but only resembles mucosa. They are only partially correct, since the normal female vaginal tissue is not truly mucosa either. It is called mucosa only because it lines a body passageway. It contains no mucous-secreting glands (Fawcett, et. al., 1995). That is why lubrication is a transudate phenomenon, the source being dilation of the capillaries that surround the barrel and the subsequent squeezing out of fluid through the vaginal walls, which in normal and artificially constructed vaginas have been shown to be a functioning two-way membrane. (Masters & Johnson, 1966). Although Masters & Johnson note that production of lubrication usually takes longer in the artificial vagina, they also showed that some artificial vaginas are capable of lubricating as well and as rapidly as any normally constituted vaginal barrel and that two of their patients had "lubricated, in fact, more effectively than many women with normally constituted vaginas" (Masters & Johnson, 1966).

Pierce ET. al. (1956) demonstrated the conversion of skin to vaginal epithelium, which after twenty years, included normal vaginal PH levels, complete loss of hair, complete loss of pigment, complete loss of sweat glands, and normal vaginal epithelial glycogen levels. They proposed, "the process is not one of metaplasia, for no new cell types are produced. Rather, there is alteration of existing cell layers and the loss of the skin organs." (p.6)

Those post-operative male-to-female transsexuals who amuse themselves with the peculiar statement that they still have a penis, but that it's just turned inside-out should note that not only do they not have a penis, but they don't even have skin of the penis any more. The histology of the tissue has changed. It also responds to hormones in an identical way as does a normal vagina, with "cyclic cornification and mucification" (Sherfey, 1973). The presence of ovaries is not a necessity. For instance, "The estrogenic and early luteal effects demonstrated by Subject 'A' are obvious, and serve as a clinical indication of adequate steroid replacement in this surgically castrated female" (Masters & Johnson, 1966, p. 203).

More impressive is a recent report by Alessandrescu et. al. (1996), who did biopsies on twelve artificially constructed vaginas and found an epithelial structure identical to that of a normal vagina. Two examples are shown in the form of pictures using electron microscopy.

Although it may be suggested that transsexuals may respond differently than non-transsexual females with regard to the results of vaginoplasty, it is my opinion that the burden of proof that this is the case rests with the surgeons who employ such procedures as colon usage and mucosal flaps for the purposes they intend. Since the nature of their work is clinical and generally not investigative, they should at least advise their patients that future study may be necessary before the value of their technique can be substantiated.

REFERENCES

Alesandrescu, D., et. al. (1996). Neocolpopoiesis with split-thickness skin graft as a surgical treatment of vaginal agenesis: Retrospective review of 201 cases. American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology, 174(1), 131-138.

Fawcett, D.W., et. al. (1994). Textbook of histology (12th ed.). New York: Chapman & Hall.

Masters, W.H. & Johnson, V.W. (1961, May-June). The artificial vagina: Anatomic, physiologic, psychosexual function. Western Journal of Surgery, Obstetrics, & Gynecology,69,192-212.

Pierce, G.W., et. al. (1956, July). Changes in skin flap of a constructed vagina due to environment. American Journal of Surgery, 92,4-8.

Sherfey, M. (1973). The nature and evolution of female sexuality. New York: Random House.

Quote from: FairyGirl on November 01, 2011, 11:40:48 PM
There is something called polymorphism where the organ changes over time to be exactly what it was constructed to be- a real vagina.  The tissue actually changes.  Here is an interesting article, with references you can check, that explains a little about this process (the emphasis is mine):

Fairygirl, you worked your magic in this post.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 01, 2011, 11:39:31 PM
If they have the same material...where is my ova and ovum?

as of now, there's nothing you can do as far as gonads are concerned, but genitals you can. i don't consider the reproductive organs to be the same as genitals. i've noticed you are one who would not get srs through several posts. i share some of the same opinions as you as far as not being the sum of parts, but i don't have a clear cut decision on whether i will get this surgery or won't. the only areas having a penis seem to affect me are not being able to have sex with a male the way i would want to, not being able to find a male who is understanding. since i'm virgin, and i just can't realistically see an opportunity for sex coming my way anytime soon, genitals are very seldom on my mind.

Okay, I know I've mentioned this before, but my mother had hair and teeth growing in her ovaries. If that's somehow more womanly and natural than the inner parts of a woman who was born with a penis and its accouterments, then the world is not at all what I thought it was.

I don't think internal organs need be part of a "real" vagina.

Quote from: Felix on November 02, 2011, 01:17:57 AM
Okay, I know I've mentioned this before, but my mother had hair and teeth growing in her ovaries. If that's somehow more womanly and natural than the inner parts of a woman who was born with a penis and its accouterments, then the world is not at all what I thought it was.

I don't think internal organs need be part of a "real" vagina.

Not sure if you're serious or not..

Nonetheless that would be scary. :o



Anyways OT - It's just a definition, it doesn't define you.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lt6pk6JZMj1qe15yz.gif&hash=0f30f97d320686dd8b10fda25c3bfcd1d45aa362)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermoid_cyst (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermoid_cyst)

Lol I'm going to go cringe and twitch for a bit now.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on November 02, 2011, 12:57:14 AM
. since i'm virgin, and i just can't realistically see an opportunity for sex coming my way anytime soon, genitals are very seldom on my mind.

They aren't on my mind as much as they used to be... You know men have like personalities and feelings and stuff.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on November 02, 2011, 12:57:14 AMbeing able to have sex with a male the way i would want to

How do you want to? Getting penetrated? Because if that's the case, you can use your ass for that, for now at least.

Quote from: JenJen2011 on November 02, 2011, 09:19:56 AM
How do you want to? Getting penetrated? Because if that's the case, you can use your ass for that, for now at least.

that is true, but it seems like it could be overwhelming if you don't know what it feels like. i didn't really think it was a real erogenous zone that would allow anyone to have sex that way. but, like i said. i'm a virgin, and i've only started masturbation 2 years ago. the concept of sex is pretty new and unexplored to me. your reply made me crack up a little at first, but i see what you mean.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 01, 2011, 11:55:28 PM
Fairygirl, you worked your magic in this post.

No magic Masha, just sience, you know the facts so well, don't you?
Well, maybe you should google evidence based medicine.
While you are doing that, take a look at embryology, you can find what's happend to your ovaries when you were in the uterus.
This is very refreshing stuff, special for you because you always want to know the facts, well, there is your chance.

Quote from: FairyGirl on November 01, 2011, 11:40:48 PM
There is something called polymorphism where the organ changes over time to be exactly what it was constructed to be- a real vagina.  The tissue actually changes.  Here is an interesting article, with references you can check, that explains a little about this process (the emphasis is mine):
[

How can a biologically male body imitate a vagina? it seems odd honestly. Even if a person with a neo vagina gets a vaginoplasty their body is still biologically male so how can a neo vagina start functioning as a real one? In other words how can a male body know how to make the neo vag work as a real one? it is an interesting article but it doesnt really answer my question about that. Also i dont believe every that every transwoman who gets srs is lucky enough to have that result after some time. Again that is my opinion since i dont have one yet, but if it worked as a real vagina entirely than i dont think it would require life long dilation. But very interesting article indeed!

Quote from: FullMoon19 on November 02, 2011, 06:13:22 PM
that is true, but it seems like it could be overwhelming if you don't know what it feels like. i didn't really think it was a real erogenous zone that would allow anyone to have sex that way. but, like i said. i'm a virgin, and i've only started masturbation 2 years ago. the concept of sex is pretty new and unexplored to me. your reply made me crack up a little at first, but i see what you mean.

Actually, it's an especially erogenous zone in people with a male prostate.  It can be a little painful at first and it's not always the cleanest part of your body, but yeah, it's really, really, really nice.  You could always get a toy if you're nervous about having sex with a man.  That or your fingers (but make sure you trim your nails!!!).

I don't have a prostate, but I use my ass for that all the time. I don't have a lot of bottom dysphoria, either, so I'm not just avoiding "female" bits. In my experience, anal sex is an acquired taste just like beer or coffee. Kinda repellent to begin with, but it's got it's subtleties, and there's nothing else like it. 

I use enemas and general cleanliness to insure that it's not a traumatically dagnasty experience, though. No santorum on my sheets.

Whether JenJen's comment was serious or facetious, she has a point. Penetration is nice and doable no matter what your body situation is.

Quote from: Elsa.G on November 02, 2011, 08:38:06 PM
Even if a person with a neo vagina gets a vaginoplasty their body is still biologically male so how can a neo vagina start functioning as a real one?

When you start female hormones, your body stops being 'biologically male'. From there on, your body is producing the exact same cells that a female would produce, and it starts to function as a female body.

This is why your skin changes, the hormones tell your body to develop a 'female skin' instead of a 'male skin'. This is also why you are getting breasts. And this is also how your body knows what to do with that vagina.

Quote from: Felix on November 03, 2011, 02:24:30 AMWhether JenJen's comment was serious or facetious, she has a point. Penetration is nice and doable no matter what your body situation is.

I was serious. And thanks for mentioning the enemas. That's very important.

actually when you think about it it is logical that penile skin and other external skin grafts used to line a neovagina will take on the appearance and workings of natural vagina lining as of course all babies start out female and its only a dose of hormones that alters the skin to male in the first place, remove the testo and the body will revert to female to some degree which is why natural and young manmade eunuchs are noted for having very soft skins and no body hair.
non-ops who elect for orchies will not get this softness if they went through the testo bath of puberty.

I was looking at nipple enlargement techniques the other day as mine stayed quite small despite the boobs growing out to 40Bs and there is a youtube of a pump being placed on a clitoris and drawing it out to make quite a mini penis so maybe some of the FtMs can enlighten us on how big their clitorii have grown with the testo regime and if sucked out with a pump (sorry for contradiction in terms) the outer skin would harden off to be like penis skin.

Quote from: Felix on November 03, 2011, 02:24:30 AM
I don't have a prostate...

So I always thought, too...

but then...

"In 2002 the Skene's gland was officially renamed the prostate by the Federative International Committee on Anatomical Terminology." - Wikipedia 

It's located in a different spot in XX people and while it reacts in the same way, I don't think it can be stimulated from anal sex.  Linguistically, it seems sexist to decide that the same gland should adopt the "male" name, but at the same time, I think the gland probably comes up most often in medical situations involving XY people.

The flip side here is that XY people have a G-Spot!  Enjoy it!

Quote from: Joandelynn on November 03, 2011, 07:13:27 AM
When you start female hormones, your body stops being 'biologically male'. From there on, your body is producing the exact same cells that a female would produce, and it starts to function as a female body.

This is why your skin changes, the hormones tell your body to develop a 'female skin' instead of a 'male skin'. This is also why you are getting breasts. And this is also how your body knows what to do with that vagina.

Correct but what if you stop taking hormones? would it still send that message or will it just stop.
I understand that if you removes the testicles the main source of testosterone is gone so u lessen the hormones but im pretty sure that u still have to take them. I hate the fact of having to dilate and and take hormones forever. Anyway i understand most of what ur saying but if it functions like a real vagina why does it still close up if it starts the same function as a natural female vagina? That would mean it doesn't really function exactly as one because if your body becomes female it would know not to close it up especially with all those cells and stuff that are there.

some GGs do find their vaginas close up if not used.
plus they get dry and tight and need estrogen creams to soften and open it again.

Quote from: lilacwoman on November 03, 2011, 05:16:47 PM
some GGs do find their vaginas close up if not used.
plus they get dry and tight and need estrogen creams to soften and open it again.

Quote from: lilacwoman on November 03, 2011, 05:16:47 PM
some GGs do find their vaginas close up if not used.
plus they get dry and tight and need estrogen creams to soften and open it again.

r u referring to all women? cuz ive never heard of that happening? i have heard of the dryness though but i dont think natural vaginas close up with no use

Quote from: Elsa.G on November 03, 2011, 04:38:19 PM
I hate the fact of having to dilate and and take hormones forever.

Yes, me too. But I need that surgery, so I'll deal with the consequences.

Quote from: Elsa.G on November 03, 2011, 04:38:19 PM
Anyway i understand most of what ur saying but if it functions like a real vagina why does it still close up if it starts the same function as a natural female vagina?

Because surgery isn't perfect (yet). I really wish it was, but I am glad that we already have the options that we have now.

And you are right, your body does try to close it up if you do nothing, but that's not because it's trying to make a penis from it again. It's because your body sees it as a wound that needs healing. After all, it is invasive surgery, and that will definitely trigger healing processes. Telling the body exactly when to stop healing is still a bit tricky.

there was a surgery show on telly a couple of weeks back and a GG was getting hers opened up as a web of skin had grown across to practically seal it up.  there was mention that it is quite common.
but its one of those things that don't get talked about.

That could very well be true, dilators were not invented for transsexual women.

I remember in Middle School they tought us about the vagina being a whole organ so i think wikipedia is right. And i never heard of a vagina closing up because of non use, if that's true it would have happened to me like in my teens years or something. Anyway thats crazy 0_0

Quote from: lilacwoman on November 03, 2011, 05:39:06 PM
there was a surgery show on telly a couple of weeks back and a GG was getting hers opened up as a web of skin had grown across to practically seal it up.  there was mention that it is quite common.
but its one of those things that don't get talked about.

That's weird, i gotta figure more of that out since a gg vagina is not an open wound i cannot imagine how that happens.

Quote from: Marta on November 03, 2011, 07:37:41 PM
I remember in Middle School they tought us about the vagina being a whole organ so i think wikipedia is right. And i never heard of a vagina closing up because of non use, if that's true it would have happened to me like in my teens years or something. Anyway thats crazy 0_0

During sex ed in my school they seperated the boys and the girls so they can learn more about their own sex than about the other. Im kinda assuming they do that in all schools.

Quote from: Elsa.G on November 03, 2011, 07:40:40 PM
During sex ed in my school they seperated the boys and the girls so they can learn more about their own sex than about the other. Im kinda assuming they do that in all schools.

Yeah actually they did that in my school too, and they do that in my sister's school so it might be true.

I know a vagina can tighten especially during sex but i never heard of it closing up, i hear it can tighten during menstruation too but again ive never heard of it closing. Also i dont think the body would actually do that since there would be no way for menstrual blood to come out.

Quote from: Marta on November 03, 2011, 07:46:28 PM
I know a vagina can tighten especially during sex but i never heard of it closing up, i hear it can tighten during menstruation too but again ive never heard of it closing. Also i dont think the body would actually do that since there would be no way for menstrual blood to come out.

i agree. it could've just been extra hymen tissue. some genetic females are born like that. some of them are even born with a layer of hymen completely covering the vaginal opening.

You know Maya I have read about skene's glands. Thanks for bringing them up. Yeah different placement, but similar function.

Somebody on an ftm board linked this and I found it a pretty neat springboard - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_homologues_of_the_human_reproductive_system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_homologues_of_the_human_reproductive_system)

the simple fact that you lot need to get your heads round is that the GG did have a vagina that had sealed itself up as the inner labia had fused together.
believe it or not there are lots of women who perhpas due to childhood brainwashing dislike their vaginas for various reasons and apart from peeing out of them don't take much care of them especially after menopause.

believe it or not there are genuine TS who dislike their penisses to the extent of never touching them as they including me sit to pee and didn't play with their male bits because to a genuine TS the penis is the source of the dysphoria.

a sealed up vagina is just like a UFO - until you see one you don't believe they exist.

And there is also something like vaginal prolapse (http://urology.med.nyu.edu/conditions-we-treat/vaginal-prolapse).

While the discussion is going on or a vagina of a trans girl is (almost) the same of a cis girl, I would bring something up.
I had a neighbor, a young lady who had a lot of troubles with her genitals.
There was a lot of adhesion near the ovaries and uturus, she had have several treatments but at the end of the day the docters had to remove the ovaries and uturus.
From that day she had to take hrt (premarin), she couldn't give birth and  she used sometimes a cream because her vagina wasn't that wet as it was before.

Did she have a real vagina?

I met her when I moved to this neighborhood and after some time she tells me her story and after some time I have told my story.
We were both married and the guys could get along very well together.
it were her words that we were in the same position of womanhood.

And now some people tell me that mine isn't real?
Well, my husband or I didn't have complains about it, we had a good sex life and he was tripple hetero.
These experiences are more worth to me than the words of people who read something and think they have expertise, just by reading, not one single experience as a woman in a heterosexual relationship.

As a nurse I have seen a lot of women who had trouble with their genitals, don't they have real vagina's? are they not real woman?
It's a fact, there can be so much wrong with female genitals that we do have a special doctor for it, they are calles gyneacologists.

There are people here who read a bit more and keeped their knowledge in a good shape.
But people who just say that a transgirl vagina is actually a penis are talking crap. Nothing but crap.

Felix -

That's a really interesting set of information!  I wonder why they would bother to change the name of the Skene's gland if pretty much every part has an analog like that...

Lilac -

Interesting.  I never knew that my having touched my penis meant I am not a genuine TS and that I have no dysphoria with that part of my body.  Great to know I can stop pretending to be upset about it and stop worrying about trying to save up money for GCS!

Quote from: annette on November 04, 2011, 01:38:55 PM
But people who just say that a transgirl vagina is actually a penis are talking crap. Nothing but crap.

It's a construction from the penis. Like if I take some legos and build an eiffel tower, then I take the same number of Legos on build a HOOTERS, then it's still the same amount of legos.

Leggo my eggo.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 02:03:57 PM
It's a construction from the penis. Like if I take some legos and build an eiffel tower, then I take the same number of Legos on build a HOOTERS, then it's still the same amount of legos.

Leggo my eggo.

Mahsa i agree it is something created from a penis, that is something that ive come to terms with but at first couldn't cope with. And honestly i am better now that i accept that i will never have a natural vagina. Id love to have a real one complete with all the organs but i cant and comparing my man made one to a woman who has health problems doesn't make a difference to me i still realize that it's different and i can never comprehend what its like to have a real one and to be in a naturally female body. It hurts to feel that way, it hurts to forever take hormones, forever dilate and but id rather have a fake vagina than none and that's what helps me cope. Many TS's compare themselves to women with health issues but i realize that it doesnt do any good its still not the same thing.

Many TS's compare themselves to women with health issues but i realize that it doesnt do any good its still not the same thing. (http://many%20ts's%20compare%20themselves%20to%20women%20with%20health%20issues%20but%20i%20realize%20that%20it%20doesnt%20do%20any%20good%20its%20still%20not%20the%20same%20thing.)

I certainly consider myself a man with health issues. Lol, some crazy crazy health issues. Weird growths, missing body parts, whatever. :P

Elsa I'm sorry you feel like your vagina is fake. That must be hard to live with. I don't think your vagina is fake. My daughter had to have her nose, mouth, and sinuses worked on because they were too narrow and compressed for her to breathe properly. I don't think she has fake sinuses. I had to get my throat dilated after some nerve damage, but my throat isn't fake. My ankle has undergone extensive surgical repair, had to be rebroken twice, sawn through, and bolted together with plates and screws, and it's not as good as a normal ankle but it's not fake.

I'm not sure how much I believe in the idea of a "naturally female" or "naturally male" body. There are so many factors that make us female or male, and most of those factors are on a spectrum, not either/or. Also some of those factors are fluid, and can change as a person evolves (either physically or mentally).

Anyway, sorry to jump in like that. I'm not trying to berate you about your beliefs. Everybody has a right to conceptualize themselves the way they want to. I just wanted to say I see you as a natural woman.

Quote from: Elsa.G on November 04, 2011, 04:25:52 PM
Mahsa i agree it is something created from a penis, that is something that ive come to terms with but at first couldn't cope with. And honestly i am better now that i accept that i will never have a natural vagina. Id love to have a real one complete with all the organs but i cant and comparing my man made one to a woman who has health problems doesn't make a difference to me i still realize that it's different and i can never comprehend what its like to have a real one and to be in a naturally female body. It hurts to feel that way, it hurts to forever take hormones, forever dilate and but id rather have a fake vagina than none and that's what helps me cope. Many TS's compare themselves to women with health issues but i realize that it doesnt do any good its still not the same thing.

You had srs?

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 02:03:57 PM
It's a construction from the penis. Like if I take some legos and build an eiffel tower, then I take the same number of Legos on build a HOOTERS, then it's still the same amount of legos.

Leggo my eggo.

Like I said before CRAP.
Talking that the vagina is technically a penis but on the otherhand saying I don't want srs because I love my penis so much.
Hey what that's it matter, it's all the same to you, so, why don't you, after all you're keeping your penis isn't it?

Well, Masha, as you can read I lived the life of a woman and I still do.
My sexpartners do like my anatomy bits, can you say the same? Apparently not, as I could read in your last tread, straight guys running away when you talk about your penis.
It's okay with me how you see yourself, really, be happy and do what you like, you have all my good wishes for that, but I have build on my life again as a woman, with a vagina and I don't have to live as a gay with a skirt.

Quote from: Felix on November 04, 2011, 04:42:46 PM
I'm not sure how much I believe in the idea of a "naturally female" or "naturally male" body. There are so many factors that make us female or male, and most of those factors are on a spectrum, not either/or. Also some of those factors are fluid, and can change as a person evolves (either physically or mentally).

I like your brain.

this website is seriously turning into a jerry springer episode with this srs vs non op zeal.

It's not the intention to insult the non ops, there are a lot of people who can't have srs due to personal circumstances or medical condition and I can feel their pain.
They do have my sympathy, no doubt about that.

But, self called women who are so proud on their penises and telling that the people who are cured.....yes cured, are technically men, well I think I have to answer to that, because that's insulting.
Insulting the people who had the guts to take the steps that were needed.
BTW, you didn't take my good advice to google embryology, did you?
Otherwise you should know better.
But, do what you want, call yourself a woman while in another tread your are talking about your six inch penis, I think in your world you are very feminine but society has quite a different look about it, don't you think?
Maybe you must stop dreaming and take a step into the real world.

BTW, I don't go to hell, I am a good girl.

A reminder of Rule 15.

15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.

If fighting continues after this warning, I will lock topic!

Quote from: annette on November 04, 2011, 05:28:56 PM
But, do what you want, call yourself a woman while in another tread your are talking about your six inch penis, I think in your world you are very feminine but society has quite a different look about it, don't you think?
Maybe you must stop dreaming and take a step into the real world.

Not really. Damned if you do, damned if you don't... You're as much of a freak as I am by society's standards. You were still born with XY chromosomes... You still have male bone structure, etc... As if what is in the pants matters, it doesn't. Pre or post op....we're all considered freaks by some outsider standards or another.

You're still a ->-bleeped-<- doesn't matter which way you "cut" and change it. Therefore, what I choose to do with my body is none of your damn business.

You're also a homophobe...but we won't talk about that.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 05:38:27 PM
You were still born with XY chromosomes... You still have male bone structure, etc... As if what is in the pants matters, it doesn't.

What's in the pants matters a whole lot more than what chromosomes you have. When was the last time you had your chromosomes checked, and when was the last time that you dropped your pants before somebody else?

Quote from: Joandelynn on November 04, 2011, 05:54:04 PM
What's in the pants matters a whole lot more than what chromosomes you have. When was the last time you had your chromosomes checked, and when was the last time that you dropped your pants before somebody else?

from my standpoint, i had my chromosomes checked once. how many times i dropped my pants for someone else, zero. i am a virgin.

Too bad you react this way. Too angry.
If possible i would choose a intelligent discussion.
Just talking as adults, you know.
But you keep on saying, that I am actually a man, so i would like to compare our lives.
Smiting, curshing and having a crap list with my name on it, is a bit childish and won't have any effect on giving my point of view.
Like I said, talking as adults, that shouldn't be too hard is it?

So relax a little, just think before you write, writing from emotions is never a good idea.
You'll see the conversation will go much better than.

Masha, do you have a new hobby.....smiting?

I will repeat because I think you didn't read well.

Smiting, curshing and having a crap list with my name on it, is a bit childish and won't have any effect on giving my point of view.

I hope I have made myself quite clear now

Can somebody lock this already?

Quote from: FullMoon19 on November 04, 2011, 05:56:57 PM
from my standpoint, i had my chromosomes checked once.

That is probably more than most people. And besides, I assume that was for yourself. People on the street usually don't ask you what kind of genes you are having :)

It's also funny Masha that you call me homophobic.
Some of my best friends are gay or lesbian, doesn't matter to me, I look to the person.
Sometimes I go out with a gay friend, why not? it's nice and cozy, having a drink and a nice conversation with good people.
So, that homophobic thing is also not one of your facts.

Just wanted to put this in the right perspective.

Quote from: annette on November 04, 2011, 06:02:23 PM
Masha, do you have a new hobby.....smiting?

I will repeat because I think you didn't read well.

Smiting, curshing and having a crap list with my name on it, is a bit childish and won't have any effect on giving my point of view.

I hope I have made myself quite clear now

So um... I've been here about one week and I'm already tired of the stupid non vs post discussions.

Sweet, if we can't all get along can we at least be cordial in attacking one another.

I ask myself WWGGD: What Would the GG do?

Incidentally, if you want to call out someone for not understanding your point, perhaps you should consider working on your grammar and voice. I'm a professional reader and I find your posts difficult to understand.

Quote from: Joandelynn on November 04, 2011, 06:11:18 PM
That is probably more than most people. And besides, I assume that was for yourself. People on the street usually don't ask you what kind of genes you are having :)

well i don't think people on the street would ask on the street what genitals you have either. that seems like sexual harassment. i never was asked "hi miss, do you have a vulva?"

Quote from: Felix on November 04, 2011, 06:10:35 PM
Can somebody lock this already?

Also, this ^^

Quote from: Felix on November 04, 2011, 06:10:35 PM
Can somebody lock this already?

but that's too easy  ::)

Sweet, if we can't all get along can we at least be cordial in attacking one another.

I ask myself WWGGD: What Would the GG do?

So, this is English?

Quote from: FullMoon19 on November 04, 2011, 06:14:56 PM
well i don't think people on the street would ask on the street what genitals you have either. that seems like sexual harassment. i never was asked "hi miss, do you have a vulva?"

Ah, but what about all the pervs on internet forums?  :P

Quote from: annette link=topic=109036.msg825828#msg825828 date=1320448604

So, this is English?
/quote]

Well, vamos a ver, I speak several languages and to my recollection I've only ever seen (albeit of the poor variety.) and posted in English on this forum.

And yes, acronyms are apart of the English language.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on November 04, 2011, 06:14:56 PM
well i don't think people on the street would ask on the street what genitals you have either. that seems like sexual harassment. i never was asked "hi miss, do you have a vulva?"

Do you know the saying "Always wear clean underwear in case you get hit by a truck?"

Quote from: Joandelynn on November 04, 2011, 06:22:09 PM
Do you know the saying "Always wear clean underwear in case you get hit by a truck?"

Interesting my girlfriends have always told me 'wear clean underwear in case of a random hook up with a hot boy.'

Although I can't decide which seems more dangerous.  :P

Quote from: Felix on November 04, 2011, 06:10:35 PM
Can somebody lock this already?

Your wish is my command. Done!

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