Susan's Place Transgender Resources

When you look back in history you see an exaggerated version of what we have today, find evil and get rid of it.  For some it's almost an all thought consuming activity.  However... they MUST find evil before they can carry out the good act of getting rid of it. 

We all see the media making up stories to report if they can't find them.  And I think that's what the evil abolitionists do.  Even when evil isn't there, they can't accept that and they look for something, anything, to satisfy their need, even if they have to demonize the good and decent people.

And the innocent suffer.

How many women were burned alive because someone claimed they were a witch?  I've heard as much as 50,000.  How many people were tortured beause someone claimed they were possessed by the devil?  How many people went to their deaths because they questioned the religious beliefs? 

What is wrong with us?!?!

Today evil abolitionists carry out their deeds in a less physically harmful way but certainly not less emotionally harmful.  And they usually cite the "will of the Lord" while they demonize innocent and good people.  The sad thing is they truy believe they are carrying out the will of God.  And God looks down on them, saddened by the abuse of the real word of God.

For over half a century I hid my real self and enjoyed total acceptance in this sometimes cruel society.  Then I could no longer continue the masquerade and I came out.  Suddenly I was thrown into the category of evil doers.  No one would have ever felt that way about me before but, now that I have admitted I am transsexual, I instantly became evil.  After all, it's all about sex, right?  :eusa_doh:

Since I see people for their actions and not their words, I see the evil abolitionists as the real evil.  What better way to disguise themselves than to paint themselves as do-gooders?  Should I carry out God's will and eliminate them?  Should I point out all the good and innocent people they have hurt?  Should I find quotes in the Bible that support my belief they are the real evil and start a movement to get rid of them?

One thing I think of often is "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves." (Matthew 7:15).  Are these evil abolitionists the false phrophets Matthew was writing about?  They pretend to be doing good but are really harming God's children.  I'd say they fit the description of wolves in sheep's clothing pretty well.

Now the question is how to we expose them?

Julie

I agree that there are false prophets all around us, ranging from the "healing touch" sorts, to the Robertsons and Dobsons, to politicians guided by their "faith," to the regular knuckleheads that try to impose their narrow bigoted beliefs on others.

Fundamentally, we need to change the framing of the discussion of religion so that people take a more active role in their faith, and to critically analyze it.  I don't think the problem is so much religion as much as society giving more credit to the novelty than to rational discourse.  It's why we love superhero movies, go to war with Iraq, and collectively carry a lot of debt.  It is okay to dabble in fantasy or other mysterious things, but doing so should not be the basis of what you expect from others, or of critical life decisions.

In order for people to best realize this, we may need to draw upon examples where their way of thinking has failed them or could fail them.  However, the challenge seems to be in gaining the ear of such people, especially if they see you as an outcast seeking personal gain -- it's not entirely their fault, because there are people around them who try to exploit them for personal gain, but they are not perfect judges of who poses a threat to them.

Very hard topic. The false prophets and hypocrites think they are doing good. They think they are on the right path, doing what they are, saying what they are for the good of all. Many at least. No doubt, many totalitarians were true believers. "you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs" (Derzhinski)
I have met people who have done grievous wrong, rapists, murderers, who have much good in them. One can see the kernel of good in evil actions. Seems Chinese, yin-yang.. good becomes evil, evil can become good. Lao Tze said, "the way that is the way is not the unchanging way".
How many times have I done wrong in the guise of trying to do right? How much of my wrongdoings have had the kernel of good in it?
Good, evil, are concepts, very human concepts. Concepts have no inherent reality. The view of a very different being would be vastly different from ours.
I try to be compassionate, honest, empathetic, respectful.. maybe that equates to good. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way. No doubt for others as well.
Blessings, Tara

Well, first of all, was there really a Mathew?  Did he right the book?  In all reality, the book was written long after the fact and it's authorship is unknown.

Second. Many religions can not exist without the preponderance of evil. It is inconceivable that reasonable moral values (like, don't steal, be nice to other people, don't rape your sister, etc) can not be taught without the vision of an empowered religious leader and buying into a religious cultism of sorts. No, atheists surely can not teach these values, for they do not believe in the values of goodness.

Yet, the atheists that I do know are the finest Christians I've ever met!  Go figure.
They are kinder, gentler, more understanding, more accepting, more GENEROUS to worthy causes... you name it, they are just nicer and more decent people than many Christians I've met in my lifetime.

Yes, religious zealots need an evil to fight. They need a battle to rally the troops. They need their master to lead them in difficult times.  They need someone to beat up.  Pretty sad huh?

Cindi

you don't have to believe in god to [know right from wrong.] what is good and what is evil is really only a perception of the person who defines it. if there were no good, then how could you define evil and if there were no evil how could you define good?. what is [good to some is evil to others], and vice versa.  i believe there has to be a balance between the two. things can not be all good and things can not be all bad; there has to be a mid point.
furthermore, ethics, morality and societal norms [dictate what is right and wrong for me as an atheist]. all of these are discussed in the public arena as well as in the home. plus everybody has a [conscience unless they are psychotic].

If you were sitting around in God's livingroom this question might never come to mind. However being on different dimentional planes, Gods being spiritual and ours being physical, we find ourselves uncomfortably far away. What is to be gained living in a world so full of evil that wouldn't be just as equally aquired if we were still hanging out in God's livingroom.
What I think we have to gain from others evil deeds is a chance to strengthen our faith, to love more maturely, to increase our personal courage and a chance to get really good at forgiving our fellow man for all the crap that gets thrown our way.

I'm reminded of the explanation of why paranoids imagine they have lots of enemies.

It's because their life becomes important and meaningful (to them) if there are people 'out to get them'.  After all, if they were truly insignificant and unimportant, who'd bother to spend time hating them?

Would Satan bother with you if you were worthless?

...just a thought...

Karen

Evil is bad.

Evil.  Evil is, in essence, all things that work against the progress of humanity.  Evil is violence towards other humans.  Evil is unnatural death.

Good.  Good is anything that helps further the interests of humanity (see humane).  Good is investing in and working towards the happiness of other humans.  Good is life.

These are the only definitions necessary.  Those are the only definitions anyone needs to know.

Any person who can't understand this is weak, petty, and a complete waste of human flesh.

~ Blair

Quote"Evil.. Evil is when we think of other living creatures as objects. That's where sin begins."-Esmeralda 'Granny' Weatherwax, The DiscWorld series by Terry Pratchett.

Because when we see other living creatures as objects, when we think of them as objects, we can use them. To our own benefit. Without considering their own benefit. Which is called 'abuse.'

Do we need evil? We need to know evil, so we can fully enjoy good, i.e. acts of benefit towards one another. Yet; do we need the existence of evil? No.
However, many people use the term 'evil' in order to justify their own beliefs. In many cases, they do just what Granny called 'Evil;' they use other living beings, other people, in order to have this 'evil' they so desire as a justification of their own belief. They máke people evil, or at least; their definitions of sin do.

It's a shame, really. All that energy, and good intention, but solely used for an egotistical desire to better than other people.

QuoteHow many women were burned alive because someone claimed they were a witch?  I've heard as much as 50,000.

Yes. But the total number is around 80,000, counting the men who got murdered for just the very same thing.(Around 30,000)

I would with great restraint, add that some individuals also cite "Allah" as the source of authority for 'visiting evil' upon the ubiquitous 'infidels' and exterminating these from the face of the earth.

Speaking generally, does the unconscionable and perverted behavior of the relative few effectively and categorically nullify a concept?

Does such stand as an indictment against the merit of a concept?

Is it expedient and proper to employ hate and violence to combat and to expose hate and violence?

Quote from: rhonda13000 on March 05, 2007, 03:49:02 PM
I would with great restraint, add that some individuals also cite "Allah" as the source of authority for 'visiting evil' upon the ubiquitous 'infidels' and exterminating these from the face of the earth.

Speaking generally, does the unconscionable and perverted behavior of the relative few effectively and categorically nullify a concept?

Does such stand as an indictment against the merit of a concept?

Is it expedient and proper to employ hate and violence to combat and to expose hate and violence?

Someone stop her, she's getting to the heart of the issues!

Gag order!  Black bag!  Missing person!  Get rid of that idea!  There is no hypocrisy!

Only obedience.

~ Blair

Au Contraire, mon cherie.

Hypocrisy is ubiquitous and not restricted to the 'spiritual' realm.

I sure wish that it was, given what my Shop Chief and I dealt with this past weekend, relative to our infamous supervision.  >:(

I, generally speaking, define evil in my head as the conservatives and the religious.

Is this a reprehensible generalization? Good lords, absolutely! And that's my point. It's always us versus them, and good is ALWAYS defined by what side you play for.

The idea of evil is so highly subjective. For me, the emitome of evil is our Christian president and war criminal George Bush. For others, it's Muslims. For many of the Republican indoctorinates and Dominionists, the epitome of evil is me, a liberal agnostic. 

This is why in trying to decide what is good and what is evil, I think human rights are a basic and fundamental place to start. International human rights organizations have identified 32 inherrent human rights. These are things like access to food, shelter and other things indemic for basic human survival.

Of course, this would end modern slavery - known as globalization. That, again would be challenged by the conservatives and the Dominionists - but it's still the basic point at which I think we could address good and evil as a human society.

Brilala

Ah, copy that.

There are no absolutes [absolutely] and one's subjective perspective augmented by [presumably] experience and empirical knowledge of the universe is an entirely sufficient and replete guide for the management of one's existence.

I knew that I should have smoked one more doobie, today.

But if I do not delay, there is still time!  ;D

I do not believe Evil exists by itself as an entity. I do believe people can be evil....and they are the root of all evil. Uneducated fearful idiots are far scarier than any other force on earth. Or perhaps people educated wrongly is just as damaging.

I look at the war being raged right now and it would seem to me history is just repeating itself. Its as if the Christians and Muslims were born to fight each other in wars and from what I see going on in Iraq, its just a continuation of history. USA (Christians) fighting the Middle East (Muslims). Religion interpreted by mankind is the root of all evil, for without heaven there can be no hell. Without good there can be no evil. Mankind sets the boundries of good and evil, therefore man is evil using religion as his tool.

QuoteI would with great restraint, add that some individuals also cite "Allah" as the source of authority for 'visiting evil' upon the ubiquitous 'infidels' and exterminating these from the face of the earth.

That's nice. What was the prime name of Allah again? Oh, yes. JHWH.
Of course, he has other names, besides that one. Strangely, all of these names contain a value of love, trust, and fellowship, along with wisdom, knowledge and insight.

Evil is the result of the fall of man. Every one is capable of evil. When I came to a saving knowledge of Jesus, I found the way in which evil can be fought. It isn't about what church, you attend or what religion you are. It is the letting Jesus helps me overcome evil with good. I don't always succeed but I go out and try again. Living the Christian life is about deed and action and not mere talk.

Gennee  
A second thought. If there wasn't evil how can God show his way to something better?

Gennee

Quote from: gennee on March 06, 2007, 03:05:23 PM
A second thought. If there wasn't evil how can God show his way to something better?

Gennee

So - we really NEED evil in order for the existence of good?

Karen

Quote from: Karen on March 06, 2007, 09:52:50 PM

So - we really NEED evil in order for the existence of good?

Karen

Yup.  That's as far as we can go as a society.  There must need be evil. And Karen, you are the one we can single out today to fill that roll.  You evil person you! Repent!

I'll take my turn tomorrow.  Do you suppose that would satisfy them?

Na, I don't either.

Cindi

It's a very childish argument.

We all love the "good is impotent without the contrast of evil" saying, but in reality, the definition of both is completely skewed.  Just see my previous post, really.

God is life, love, and satisfaction.  He encourages these things.  Whether or not this is interpreted as "good" or "evil" by men is completely irrelevant; it is the way things are. 

You might venture so far as to say evil is nothing more as a sickness of the soul brought on by overexposure to cruelty and a detachment from the suffering of human beings.  Evil, as it were, is very much a learned, taught concept.  Human beings are innately good, because we have a survival instinct that exists on a species-wide scale.

The fact is, someday (assuming we survive, which we will) evil may or may not exist in the classic sense.  Why does this make good nonexistent?

Isn't the lack of evil considered a good thing?

~ Blair

This is another one of those issues that boils down to "who's to say?". Who gets to say what is evil and what is good? I am afraid I am not going to be able to go with "social norms". That thinking brought us segregation and slavery. The persecution of the jews. The killing of intellectuals and homosexuals. We are now seeing the banning of gay marriage and firing of transsexuals without cause.

I do not beleive we need evil to offset good. The companion of good is not evil, it's love. If I were god, I would not have invented evil. There would be no child rapists. There would be no murderers. And if god indeed is all powerful, all knowing , all seeing, then god knows the outcome of all events. If god knows the outcome of all events, there can be no freewill. If god does not know the outcome, how could he have created it?

Evil is a term we use to describe our savage behavior as human beings. We do other nice neet things like legal killings of people such as executions and wars. But heaven forbid you kill someone for non political reasons without permission from the government and church. We use it to describe how those who are without will steal when the means to aquire such things are controlled by the elite wealthy, the state and the church who are all holding hands.

Evil was created as a means of control. It's nothing more than a label of something that resists the control of the state, the wealthy, and the church.

NO, we don't need evil.

Love always,
Elizabeth

This god, good, evil thing is so confusing at times. During the "SuperBowl" many players and the coach thank god for their win and without god they would not be there. Yet this same god lets some 6 year old girl step on a land mine in a foriegn country. Is it because that country is Muslim and god is punishing them and the USA is full of Christians so football teams can thank him for their win?

Whew!  Let's see.

Islam is evil because they deny that Jesus was anything more than a prophet.

Christianity is evil because they deny that Mohammad was a prophet.

The Viet Cong were evil because they would come into a village and kill the leaders plus their family as a lesson not to cooperate with the American forces.

The running dog, imperialist Americans were evil because they fought against the truth of communism in Viet Nam.

I'm evil to the so called religious right because I'm transgender and do not fit into the niche they think I should.

The so called religious right is evil because I believe they try to force their views on everyone.

Yep, looks like evil depends on where you are standing at the moment.

Bev

Maybe god just likes football  ;D

Evil?

A made-up word to dehumanize others into a label so they can be abused and stepped on to make the abusers feel superior and Righteous and Good.

It's REALLY hard to kill an individual. People have like, ya know, FEELINGS and stuff.

But killing an EVIL-DOER? Easy. Not a person. Just a label. No feelings to respect. No one home to love. You're just hurting an agenda, a symbol. And so what? They're all the same. One is as evil as the other.

People are so often pawns, having sold their souls and self-determination to huge social egregores in exchange for so-called "comfort" and "security"  within the mob mentality. Entities which care *nothing* for them as individuals, as feeling and loving and hurting hearts, and only see them as expendable cannon fodder to spread their rule and dominion.

And I KNOW they're just afraid. Afraid to let go, to venture out into the Great Spiritual Unknown and find their OWN, unique path. I get mad at them and curse and complain and hate myself for it... but I get it. And in the end, it's OK. I guess it's how things are supposed to be. A big school for the soul I 'spose.

'Tis ashame though. People are seriously cool and magical creatures once unplugged.

Kate

A friend of mine once explained the concept of 'evil' like this.

The more light you have in a room, the less darkness you have in there.
The less light, the more darkness.

The two are absolutely, directly, proportionally related.

The same with good and evil.

I guess what I am trying to say is there is no seperation between them.

Shadow is created by some light with a lot of darkness, is shadow dark or light? it's both.
There are an infinite degrees between 0 and infinity.

Light and Darkness aren't two seperate entities but one is a byproduct of the other.

It's like Good, if you don't have any good at all then it's evil.

I am not even quite sure what I am trying to say now, I am really tired.

The general idea is that they are one thing in a varying amount, not two seperate ideas.

Jessica

Quote from: gennee on March 06, 2007, 03:05:23 PM
Evil is the result of the fall of man. Every one is capable of evil. When I came to a saving knowledge of Jesus, I found the way in which evil can be fought. It isn't about what church, you attend or what religion you are. It is the letting Jesus helps me overcome evil with good. I don't always succeed but I go out and try again. Living the Christian life is about deed and action and not mere talk.

Gennee  
A second thought. If there wasn't evil how can God show his way to something better?

Gennee

So in effect, God abstractly employed 'evil' in order to conclusively prove and demonstrate that in reality, He is not evil.

NAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH, I don't think so.

I think that I will get some more milk and cookies!   :)

Just to throw my 2 cents in....

I don't think it's a matter of whether or not we "need" evil.  It exists, and in a variety of forms, but its source and its opposite is (I hate it when I have to come back and police my own grammar  :embarrassed:) are what seems to cause many consternation. 

For those who do not believe in a creator/absolute authority, it is a complicated discussion.

Definition from Wikipedia
In religion and ethics, evil refers to the morally objectionable aspects of the behaviour and reasoning of human beings — those which are deliberately void of conscience, and show a wanton penchant for destruction. Evil is sometimes defined as the absence of a good which could and should be present; the absence of which is a void in what should be. In most cultures, the word is used to describe acts, thoughts, and ideas which are thought to (either directly or causally) bring about affliction and death — the opposite of goodness, which itself refers to aspects which are life-affirming, peaceful, and constructive.

Perhaps evil is best represented in the human situation in the form of unprovoked hatred against and coupled with an aggressive impulse to cause harm to another person or group (ie. sadism). Such hatred can be aroused from within the individual or group through jealousy, wrong teachings or due to unexplained extra-personal forces.

LGF

Quote from: Bracha on March 05, 2007, 02:10:42 PM
Evil is bad.

well, since the concepts of good, evil, right and wrong are all independent of a belief in any particular deity, [atheists] can believe in them too.  unfortunately, one of the major stumbling blocks to creating one is [adherence to religion], the [moral codes] of which many people reflexively believe is [better] than the moral code of any other religion. and as you can see in the news and history, there are many people who are willing to fight and die over [their religion]. so given that, i leave the decision up to you. ;)

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 06, 2007, 10:15:05 PM

Quote from: Karen on March 06, 2007, 09:52:50 PM

So - we really NEED evil in order for the existence of good?

Karen

Yup.  That's as far as we can go as a society.  There must need be evil. And Karen, you are the one we can single out today to fill that roll.  You evil person you! Repent!

I'll take my turn tomorrow.  Do you suppose that would satisfy them?

Na, I don't either.

Cindi

While I know that wasn't aimed at me I'll be happy to accept the title of "Evil One". You'll have to wait if you want a demonstration though, I'm on sabbatical.

Karen Lyn