Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I will be straight up. I am non op, I love my penis as I've never had issues with my genitals. My transition was never about it, and even if it was it would factor very small into being a woman overall. The body is just a shell, and this is worm food...so does it matter what I choose to do with it? Not really. Is it any of your business? No.

But since I came out as Non-Op. I've been called a "gay" among other insulting things. I've had my relationships put down and other insulting things. Now although I am not one to get srs...I have no problem with other people doing it. Go right ahead and do it, but respect the fact that others have not chosen your path. It doesn't make them any less than you... Society views us all in the same boat anyways. Whether we've had the surgery or not is irrelevant. It is also a petty thing to fight over.

SRS isn't for me. For reasons I've explained, from my personal perspective it won't cure TSism for me. Being a woman is so much more than that, even though I am the first to acknowledge...I was born male. Regardless of my chromsomes(which are chromounknowns) I was born male... I am not gonna deny that. However, I am who I am now...and please see me as such.

I don't care what you do with your bodies, please don't care what I do with mine.

The problem is that your very words are insulting to post-ops and restating them in a thread meant to try and mend fences will not work.

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 08:07:35 PM
The problem is that your very words are insulting to post-ops and restating them in a thread meant to try and mend fences will not work.

:>

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 08:07:35 PM
The problem is that your very words are insulting to post-ops and restating them in a thread meant to try and mend fences will not work.

How is anything here insulting?

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 08:07:35 PM
The problem is that your very words are insulting to post-ops and restating them in a thread meant to try and mend fences will not work.

WHY? why are her words insulting to post-ops? Why is her likeing her penis such a big deal?we all have diffrent levels of Dysphoria!

If you were post op you would know.

Any reply to this thread by a post op would undoubtedly lead to another locked thread.

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 08:25:03 PM
If you were post op you would know.

Maybe you could explain it?

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 08:25:03 PM
If you were post op you would know.

Any reply to this thread by a post op would undoubtedly lead to another locked thread.

well I'm not,  so please explain. What diffrence does it make if post-op or not? Why would it lead to a locked thread? It would be that bad of a response?

Quote from: Lily on November 04, 2011, 08:27:51 PM
Maybe you could explain it?

+1 please do!  I'm dying to hear it!

Generally speaking people who call themselves women but love their penises do not help the plight of TS, society see's women with penises as chicks with dicks and the porn industry is filled with what they refer to as "She Males"; deviants who make money making porn.

There aren't many women who would want to be called that, and I certainly don't believe that women in society would believe that a woman can have a penis unless it was a freak of nature.  I think that if you went out and asked, the vast majority of men and women would say that women have vaginas not penises.

I luv mai cawk.
If that makes you feel terrible, then you have issues.

It's like a proud fat girl saying she loves her curves and a fat girl who hates her body saying that it's offensive to say you love them.

There ain't nothing wrong with it.
so calm yo' vagina down, qurl.


I'm so gonna get smited for this.

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 08:39:18 PM
Generally speaking people who call themselves women but love their penises do not help the plight of TS, society see's women with penises as chicks with dicks and the porn industry is filled with what they refer to as "She Males"; deviants who make money making porn.

There aren't many women who would want to be called that, and I certainly don't believe that women in society would believe that a woman can have a penis unless it was a freak of nature.  I think that if you went out and asked, the vast majority of men and women would say that women have vaginas not penises.

why are they deviants? Most of them " chicks with dicks, ->-bleeped-<-s" are just  TS just working towards there srs! Not all but some. I'm sure they don't like to be called that either; its just a derogitory word placed on them. So your calling all pre-ops freaks of nature? Gee thanks! Who cares what society thinks; society thinks post -ops are freaks too!  Please read what you just posted, you are being as bigoted as the rest of society!

There's a section on this board, somewhere, called NON-OP!!!

Obviously, well to me at least, Susans is open to Fill in the everyone.

About being female, yet having male genitals. Ever heard of third genders? Hinduism and other pantheistic systems? Which depict their gods as being both male and female? Heck, sects that are Judeo- Christian contain mythological/spiritual representations as the creator god being male and female at the same time.

In other words. The concept of duality in gender/sex/genitalia is older than pre-recorded history.

About this whole she-male porn connection. To each is own. How do you even know about that sort of thing?
That's like a conservative Southern Baptists Preacher bitching and moaning about the debauchery he saw on Saturday night at his local honky tonk, while preaching (prolly hungover) on Sunday.

Quote from: JoeyD on November 04, 2011, 08:49:06 PM
I luv mai cawk.
If that makes you feel terrible, then you have issues.

It's like a proud fat girl saying she loves her curves and a fat girl who hates her body saying that it's offensive to say you love them.

There ain't nothing wrong with it.
so calm yo' vagina down, qurl.


I'm so gonna get smited for this.

you go girl I got yo back! We will be smited together!

It's just funny how all non-ops don't care.

We let anyone do whatever.
If it makes you feel right, it shouldn't matter what anyone else thinks.
There isn't no "your lifestyle insults me and my vagina nag nag nag"

oh and a disclaimer~
I'm not saying all post op women are like this.

Hey you can be what ever you want to be; you can feel however you want to feel; you can call yourself anything you want to; but you may have trouble convincing those in the real world that people with a penis could be a woman.

TS who are working towards their surgery are not non-ops they are pre-ops.

Hey I just stated what society would probably state.

Go out and ask them - complete strangers that is.

Oh I don't smite much either.

Quote from: Michelle. on November 04, 2011, 08:52:19 PM
There's a section on this board, somewhere, called NON-OP!!!

Obviously, well to me at least, Susans is open to Fill in the everyone.

About being female, yet having male genitals. Ever heard of third genders? Hinduism and other pantheistic systems? Which depict their gods as being both male and female? Heck, sects that are Judeo- Christian contain mythological/spiritual representations as the creator god being male and female at the same time.

In other words. The concept of duality in gender/sex/genitalia is older than pre-recorded history.

About this whole she-male porn connection. To each is own. How do you even know about that sort of thing?
That's like a conservative Southern Baptists Preacher bitching and moaning about the debauchery he saw on Saturday night at his local honky tonk, while preaching (prolly hungover) on Sunday.

there is a non op section but susans is for everyone! We are all brothers and sisters here that deal with diffrent levels of dyshoria and don't we deal enough judgement; harassment and bigotry in the real world? Why have it here? To each there own!

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 08:59:43 PM
Hey you can be what ever you want to be; you can feel however you want to feel; you can call yourself anything you want to; but you may have trouble convincing those in the real world that people with a penis could be a woman.

TS who are working towards their surgery are not non-ops they are pre-ops.

Hey I just stated what society would probably state.

Go out and ask them - complete strangers that is.

Oh I don't smite much either.

I misjudged you then.

Sorry
X:

I come here, in part, to escape the real world. I do confine my political views, for the most part, to that part of the board. My religious views, in general, as well.

Those to me should be the only truly hot button issues here at Susans.

What shouldn't be a hot topic is who qualifies as worthy.

If you have issues regarding gender, then the door ought to be open to you.

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 08:59:43 PM
Hey you can be what ever you want to be; you can feel however you want to feel; you can call yourself anything you want to; but you may have trouble convincing those in the real world that people with a penis could be a woman.

TS who are working towards their surgery are not non-ops they are pre-ops.

Hey I just stated what society would probably state.

Go out and ask them - complete strangers that is.

Oh I don't smite much either.

who cares what they think! I know I am a woman! I don't need society to prove it! I don't need to convince anyone but my S.O.! society doesn't need to know what's in my pants or under my skirt. Ok  pre-op if working towards it, non- op if not ok so back to who cares if she or they like their penis? Society only states stupidity! It depends who you ask!

And you called me (and all non /pre-ops too) a freak! what's up with that?

^agree.

Those getting inside my pants, are the only ones whose business it is what resides inside my pants.

Those includes doctors and SO.

This is pretty interesting. I'm still new to the community, so like if I ask questions please don't take offense. I'm just curious about the differences. :)

So for those who love their penis. If you had a choice to be born with a vagina or a penis, would you choose a penis? 

Like I'm kind of ok with my penis, but I don't love it; And If I had that choice I would choose a vagina. I am totally sketchy when it comes to SRS just because I want more than what the surgery does.

I would have preferred to have been born female. Though I could live without SRS.

Quote from: BrokenCode on November 04, 2011, 09:29:28 PM
This is pretty interesting. I'm still new to the community, so like if I ask questions please don't take offense. I'm just curious about the differences. :)

So for those who love their penis. If you had a choice to be born with a vagina or a penis, would you choose a penis? 

Like I'm kind of ok with my penis, but I don't love it; And If I had that choice I would choose a vagina. I am totally sketchy when it comes to SRS just because I want more than what the surgery does.

Hey start your own thread! J/k lol! no offense taken, and you can always ask me anything. I feel the same as you I'm kinda ok with mine, but don't love it! I would also choose a vagina if I had a choice, I would rather have been born bio female. I am also sketchy about the Srs surgery, because I also want more than what it offers!

Quote from: Jen-Jen on November 04, 2011, 09:11:40 PM
who cares what they think! I know I am a woman! I don't need society to prove it! I don't need to convince anyone but my S.O.! society doesn't need to know what's in my pants or under my skirt. Ok  pre-op if working towards it, non- op if not ok so back to who cares if she or they like their penis? Society only states stupidity! It depends who you ask!

And you called me (and all non /pre-ops too) a freak! what's up with that?

Nope "I" didn't call you a freak.  It would be an interesting project to go out as a woman with a penis and interact in society as a woman, doing all the things a woman does and report back on how you were treated by society.

Quote from: Michelle. on November 04, 2011, 09:23:45 PM
^agree.

Those getting inside my pants, are the only ones whose business it is what resides inside my pants.

Those includes doctors and SO.

But if women can have penises why would you hide that.  Women with vaginas don't hide that they have vaginas, in fact they flaunt it.

Now here is another question that comes to mind...

I wonder how many non-ops tuck?

Do any of the non-ops here at Susan's tuck?

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 08:25:03 PM
If you were post op you would know.

Any reply to this thread by a post op would undoubtedly lead to another locked thread.

That it would and for this reason I am going to hold my tongue, however I do sit here shaking my head and wonder.....

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 09:38:19 PM
Nope "I" didn't call you a freak.  It would be an interesting project to go out as a woman with a penis and interact in society as a woman, doing all the things a woman does and report back on how you were treated by society.

But if women can have penises why would you hide that.  Women with vaginas don't hide that they have vaginas, in fact they flaunt it.

Now here is another question that comes to mind...

I wonder how many non-ops tuck?

Do any of the non-ops here at Susan's tuck?

no but your beliefs did! why a project? Us pre-ops do it everyday! Do you want me to say " hi , i' m Jenny and I have a penis" to every one I meet? What you want me to wear nothin but chaps?

When and were do they flauunt it?? I have not seen any cis women flaunting they have vaginas! Are they wearing " I have a vigina"  t-shirts and crotchless pants?  I'm lesbian please tell me where you live I want to go there to see this!

Who cares if they tuck or not?

I am non-op, both by choice and circumstance. I don't love my genitalia, but I can live with it. If this should ever change, I will do what is necessary.

My identity doesn't invalidate your identity. We should each do what is right for us; CD, drag, full or partial transition, binary, non-binary, surgery or no surgery, etc.

I am in the minority, however I am here to give voice to a lesser chosen path, and to be there for others on this path.

Z

Quote from: Jen-Jen on November 04, 2011, 09:11:40 PM
who cares what they think! I know I am a woman! I don't need society to prove it! I don't need to convince anyone but my S.O.! society doesn't need to know what's in my pants or under my skirt. Ok  pre-op if working towards it, non- op if not ok so back to who cares if she or they like their penis? Society only states stupidity! It depends who you ask!

And you called me (and all non /pre-ops too) a freak! what's up with that?

Er I haven't called anyone anything, I have stated what I think society would "think", but I didn't call you anything.

QuoteGo out and ask them - complete strangers that is.

My genitals are not generally something I discuss with strangers. It has nothing to do with being trans, it's called not being creepy.

Quote
Nope "I" didn't call you a freak.  It would be an interesting project to go out as a woman with a penis and interact in society as a woman, doing all the things a woman does and report back on how you were treated by society.

What situation would I even be in where a stranger would know what my genitals looked like?

QuoteWomen with vaginas don't hide that they have vaginas, in fact they flaunt it.

They do? Seriously? I talk to girls all day and vaginas are never a subject. I had a 4 hour conversation today about robots though, which was pretty cool.

Quote from: Dinky_Di on November 04, 2011, 09:40:02 PM
That it would and for this reason I am going to hold my tongue, however I do sit here shaking my head and wonder.....

wow really?

I'm not post-op and I'm not non-op. I'm pre-op, and at 5 months HRT my penis is still fully functional.

I live all day every as a woman and that's how I'm treated and addressed at work, at my churches, in restaurants, cafes, libraries, etc.

I intend to have SRS in the future, and the idea of tucking totally squicks me out.

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 08:07:35 PM
The problem is that your very words are insulting to post-ops and restating them in a thread meant to try and mend fences will not work.

So my being insults you? my existence is an insult to yours? Thats life. Transsexuals already have people who hate them for simply being themselves. Yet, you get surgery and it gives you the right to judge?

I am sure as a post op...I am sure you've been called a "man with a mutilated penis", Ms. Garrison,  etc... and here you are pointing the finger at me for being different. I made a very personal decision not to get any srs...sorry, I don't meet your definition of "woman"... Just like you probably don't meets societys definition of woman.

I hope that put that in perspective for you...cuz that is how it feels for me.

Quote from: Jen-Jen on November 04, 2011, 09:56:30 PM
no but your beliefs did! why a project? Us pre-ops do it everyday! Do you want me to say " hi , i' m Jenny and I have a penis" to every one I meet? What you want me to wear nothin but chaps?

When and were do they flauunt it?? I have not seen any cis women flaunting they have vaginas! Are they wearing " I have a vigina"  t-shirts and crotchless pants?  I'm lesbian please tell me where you live I want to go there to see this!

Who cares if they tuck or not?

Where do they flaunt it... hmm you got me there :)  No wait, wearing swim suits at the beach, or at the pool.

Well a non-op who tucked is kinda contradictory, as folks tuck to imitate a vagina or hide a penis.

I used to be indifferent towards my penis. After all I don't walk naked around and for the every day life the secondary sex characteristics  play bigger role in your social life and the way people perceive you.
I enjoyed making love too although the penetration was not my preferred way to do that.

As my transition progressed I find myself being more and more bothered by it. I'd like to have vaginal sex and it drives me crazy that my brain feels that way but I don't have the right equipment to do that.

I think some people are rather prone to work with what they have and try to make the best out of  their non-op situation. Some just manage to find the comfort somewhere along the gender spectrum and not on the far end. Binary gender view is very entrenched in most of todays society and I guess some trans folks conform to it as well. But the latest development is the gender spectrum but it will take time until everyone catches up and accepts it. There is actually a google map all around the world of all the indigenous people who have at least 3 genders . "Modern" religions are the reason for this binary gender view with christianity leading the pack.   

I think some of post-ops believe if non-ops are also being called women that devalues their struggle  having gone through the SRS to be accepted as female. I personally don't loose the respect for the people who went through transition when it was much harder to do so, but I wouldn't mind making it a little easier on the future generations to be accepted for who they say there are instead of pulling their pants down to prove their identity. I find it tragic to minimize people's identity to the content of their underpants

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 10:10:25 PM
So my being insults you? my existence is an insult to yours? Thats life. Transsexuals already have people who hate them for simply being themselves. Yet, you get surgery and it gives you the right to judge?

I am sure as a post op...I am sure you've been called a "man with a mutilated penis", Ms. Garrison,  etc... and here you are pointing the finger at me for being different. I made a very personal decision not to get any srs...sorry, I don't meet your definition of "woman"... Just like you probably don't meets societys definition of woman.

I hope that put that in perspective for you...cuz that is how it feels for me.

yup yup what she said!

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 10:17:54 PM
Where do they flaunt it... hmm you got me there :)  No wait, wearing swim suits at the beach, or at the pool.

Well a non-op who tucked is kinda contradictory, as folks tuck to imitate a vagina or hide a penis.

uh.. no honey! That's just them going to the beach or pool! That's not flaunting their vaginas! That's what women wear silly!   Yes it makes us pre-ops jelous we can't but it not flaunting vaginas its flaunting hot bodys!

And no a non op that tucks is not contradictory, its not to imitate a vagina its to get a nice flat look! It just looks good in some outfits! Its not hiding the penis, there's no way to do that! Plus men hide their penis that's why they wear pants!

A woman wearing a swimsuit to a pool or beach is no more flaunting hear vagina than a man playing football wearing a jock strap is flaunting his penis. These things are appropriate attire for the situation.

Being pre-op means that I probably won't be going swimming any time soon, but I swim like a rock anyway.

Steph I like your signature "Enjoy life and be happy.  You won't be back."

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on November 04, 2011, 10:35:21 PM
A woman wearing a swimsuit to a pool or beach is no more flaunting hear vagina than a man playing football wearing a jock strap is flaunting his penis. These things are appropriate attire for the situation.

exactly!

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 10:10:25 PM
So my being insults you? my existence is an insult to yours? Thats life. Transsexuals already have people who hate them for simply being themselves. Yet, you get surgery and it gives you the right to judge?

I never mentioned anyones existence but I do believe I said "Your words"

QuoteI am sure as a post op...I am sure you've been called a "man with a mutilated penis", Ms. Garrison,  etc... and here you are pointing the finger at me for being different. I made a very personal decision not to get any srs...sorry, I don't meet your definition of "woman"... Just like you probably don't meets societys definition of woman.

I have never been call a man with a mutilated penis - sorry.

I wasn't pointing a finger at you for being different, I said your words were insulting to post-ops.

I haven't defined a woman someone else has done that.

And sorry but I do meet societies definition of a woman... They allowed me to marry a most wonderful man, it allows me to work in the public education system teaching children of all ages, The men I dated and screwed before I was married saw me as a woman as they climaxed in my vagina, and, and, oh never mind...

Quote
I hope that put that in perspective for you...cuz that is how it feels for me.

As many here have already stated... what I think doesn't matter.

But if non-ops like their penis why would they try and hide it.  If a non-op likes their penis and considers themselves to be women and thinks society should accept them as women, why would they hide it by tucking?  Why not be out and proud.  Are they embarrassed by the bulge that would show through a swimsuit, jogging suit for example?

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 10:47:03 PM
But if non-ops like their penis why would they try and hide it.  If a non-op likes their penis and considers themselves to be women and thinks society should accept them as women, why would they hide it by tucking?  Why not be out and proud.  Are they embarrassed by the bulge that would show through a swimsuit, jogging suit for example?

Good point. It's not I like I use it to top guys anymore.

But still don't want srs...

" I have never been call a man with a mutilated penis - sorry." Good for you!

" I wasn't pointing a finger at you for being different, I said your words were insulting to post-ops". you still haven't answered why they are offensive!

"I haven't defined a woman someone else has done that. "But you push it in our face!

"d sorry but I do meet societies definition of a woman... They allowed me to marry a most wonderful man, it allows me to work in the public education system teaching children of all ages, The men I dated and screwed before I was married saw me as a woman as they climaxed in my vagina, and, and, oh never mind..."         uh no you don't your just passable and was able to change paperwork! They saw you as a woman cuz you lied! And really? now your just being mean and just gross!

QuoteI said your words were insulting to post-ops.

How is someone expressing their own identity and being proud of who they are harmful to someone else?

QuoteAnd sorry but I do meet societies definition of a woman... They allowed me to marry a most wonderful man, it allows me to work in the public education system teaching children of all ages, The men I dated and screwed before I was married saw me as a woman as they climaxed in my vagina, and, and, oh never mind...

Conforming to society isn't something that impresses me. I would far prefer someone who is true to who they are inside, even if no one else ever understands.

Let me just say this. I've seen this argument grow and grow and it honestly sickens me. Do I have a side in this issue? Absolutely, but I will not express that side due to the fact that these kind of arguments lead to nowhere, and this is exactly what the OP is saying.

So angry post op people, please, give it up.

Quote from: toxicblue on November 04, 2011, 10:56:34 PM
Let me just say this. I've seen this argument grow and grow and it honestly sickens me. Do I have a side in this issue? Absolutely, but I will not express that side due to the fact that these kind of arguments lead to nowhere, and this is exactly what the OP is saying.

So angry post op people, please, give it up.

+1

Live and let live...

Caught in a state of sexual ambiguity is hell for me. (note I said for me, not for you, or you or you over there in the corner. I said me.)

I do not understand why any one would not want to be as congruent as they possibly could in one sex. However, I live with and love and am married to a wonderful person who is completly androgynous and happy to be that way.
I do not understand why my spouse could possibly think that havng a beard and breasts at the same time would be something awesome, but to hir it is.
Regardless of the fact that it is completely alien to me I must respect hir in this matter.

As we must respect our Disco Shark in this matter.
She is definatly transgender and that is all that I need to know to suport her.

Now here is where I play devils advocate:
Why should we keep denigrateing those porn actresses known as ->-bleeped-<-s as deviants. Are they truely deserving of the derision that is heaped on them? How are they harming us?

:D


hugz everyone cause this is a volitile subject

Quote from: Laura91 on November 04, 2011, 11:03:16 PM
I agree. Arguments like these pop up over and over and accomplish nothing at all. It's all so amazingly stupid.

The OP is basically my warning to the entire board for them to "mind their own s***!" when it comes to other peoples preferences.

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 10:47:03 PM
But if non-ops like their penis why would they try and hide it.  If a non-op likes their penis and considers themselves to be women and thinks society should accept them as women, why would they hide it by tucking?  Why not be out and proud.  Are they embarrassed by the bulge that would show through a swimsuit, jogging suit for example?

I told you! Not hiding! It just looks better in some out fits such a swim suits or form fitting jeans. I don't mind a small bulge in my jogging suit or in some pants! I'm still a woman!  I'm sorry I don't wear crotchless pants to show the world my penis! Why not be out and proud because society is thinks like you and doesn't understand, plus I don't have the time to explain it to everyone! Plus its harder to explain to the childrrn who are much to young to understand.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 11:07:16 PM
The OP is basically my warning to the entire board for them to "mind their own s***!" when it comes to other peoples preferences.

True, agreed! Masha thank you for being proud of who you are and standing up for the road less taken!

Quote from: Jen-Jen on November 04, 2011, 10:50:51 PM
" I have never been call a man with a mutilated penis - sorry." Good for you!

That's what I thought - good for me :)

Quote" I wasn't pointing a finger at you for being different, I said your words were insulting to post-ops". you still haven't answered why they are offensive!

Well some one did say that our vaginas were just inverted penises.  I guess that was kind of offensive

Quote"I haven't defined a woman someone else has done that. "But you push it in our face!

it's not post-ops pushing it in your face that you have to worry about.

Quote"d sorry but I do meet societies definition of a woman... They allowed me to marry a most wonderful man, it allows me to work in the public education system teaching children of all ages, The men I dated and screwed before I was married saw me as a woman as they climaxed in my vagina, and, and, oh never mind..."         uh no you don't your just passable and was able to change paperwork! They saw you as a woman cuz you lied! And really? now your just being mean and just gross!

I have never lied to any official or anyone else for that matter, including my husband, for example the screening process I had to go through was quite extensive to be allowed to teach children... police checks, finger prints, sex offender registries, background checks, they really turn your life inside out.  Oh and there's nothing gross about intercourse, it's a wonderful experience and feeling, I quite enjoy it.

So you think that all it takes to be a woman is to be passable and change paperwork... if that's the case you're in for a very rude awakening sweetie.

Don't the Wiccans have some phrase along the lines of: "if it harms no one, do as thou please"?

Yup, that would seem to work in this case.

At least seems a lot better than the old,"some are MORE equal than OTHERS".

 
    Mahsa you sure know how to draw a crowd girl.  :D



  I personally don't like my genitals, but till that day comes (meaning till i have the money) i'm kinda stuck with them.  :eusa_boohoo:

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 11:19:41 PM
if that's the case you're in for a very rude awakening sweetie.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdata.whicdn.com%2Fimages%2F1683981%2F4320308817_48675ef3f1_thumb.jpg%3F1268582803&hash=712e849775c4a1922915b5ccde9ef57ffa8abf14)

Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 04, 2011, 11:24:07 PM
 
    Mahsa you sure know how to draw a crowd girl.  :D

Thats why they call me Mahsa...actually my real name is Elle.

I'm coo with you wanting the surgery. I'd drive down to LA with a double fudge cake and romantic comedies for you when you're recovering from your surgery.

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 11:19:41 PM
So you think that all it takes to be a woman is to be passable and change paperwork... if that's the case you're in for a very rude awakening sweetie.

All it takes is a feeling inside. Nothing more than that.

 

QuoteSo you think that all it takes to be a woman is to be passable and change paperwork... if that's the case you're in for a very rude awakening sweetie.

  Well i'd rather be pretty & passable with all my paperwork changed then be one of those dude in a dress looking transexuals with a hairy vagina.  :icon_wink:

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 11:28:15 PM
I'm cool with you wanting the surgery. I'd drive down to LA with a double fudge cake and romantic comedies for you when you're recovering from your surgery.

   :D

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 11:19:41 PM
That's what I thought - good for me :)

Well some one did say that our vaginas were just inverted penises.  I guess that was kind of offensive

it's not post-ops pushing it in your face that you have to worry about.

I have never lied to any official or anyone else for that matter, including my husband, for example the screening process I had to go through was quite extensive to be allowed to teach children... police checks, finger prints, sex offender registries, background checks, they really turn your life inside out.  Oh and there's nothing gross about intercourse, it's a wonderful experience and feeling, I quite enjoy it.

So you think that all it takes to be a woman is to be passable and change paperwork... if that's the case you're in for a very rude awakening sweetie.

yes good for you...yay! Inverted penis? Ok agreed offensive! The only one pushing it in my face is you! Not post ops not society, just you! I never said you lied to officials I meant past screws! I never said intercourse was gross! Its not it wonderful! The you telling me about ejaculating inside you is gross TMI!s I didn't need to know that! I don't think all you need to be is passable and change paperwork, it takes a lot more but it helps a little.

Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 04, 2011, 11:33:02 PM
 

  Well i'd rather be pretty & passable with all my paperwork changed then be one of those dude in a dress looking transexuals with a hairy vagina.  :icon_wink:

I have a Whitney Port look on my face now...my jaw just hit the floor. Pick it up before Heidi sees it!

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 11:34:40 PM
I have a Whitney Port look on my face now...my jaw just hit the floor. Pick it up before Heidi sees it!

  I think you look great!  :-*

Quote from: Lily on November 04, 2011, 11:28:40 PM
All it takes is a feeling inside. Nothing more than that.

I retract my previous response, I'm going with this ^ now! You go girl!

Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 04, 2011, 11:37:13 PM
  I think you look great!  :-*

Damn right I do.... I would have done drag on the weekends if I wasn't 5'5", 135lbs... I am living my dream.

Let the hairy men in dresses live theirs...

Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 04, 2011, 11:33:02 PM
 

  Well i'd rather be pretty & passable with all my paperwork changed then be one of those dude in a dress looking transexuals with a hairy vagina.  :icon_wink:

A dude in a dress... That's priceless... 

Oh and many vaginas are hairy, many are bald, and the there are others neatly trimmed.  Mine happens to be neatly trimmed, just had a bikini wax :P

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 11:41:13 PM
A dude in a dress... That's priceless... 

Oh and many vaginas are hairy, many are bald, and the there are others neatly trimmed.  Mine happens to be neatly trimmed, just had a bikini wax :P

This thread is nothing without pics.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 11:28:15 PM
Thats why they call me Mahsa...actually my real name is Elle.

I'm coo with you wanting the surgery. I'd drive down to LA with a double fudge cake and romantic comedies for you when you're recovering from your surgery.

Off topic... But...

What's the translation of Mahsa and just what is and how does one become a "disco shark".

Snort coke off a hookers back behind a Compton apartment...

or so I've heard.

I'm sure Mahsa did it in a more fabulous way though.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 11:41:04 PM
Damn right I do.... I would have done drag on the weekends if I wasn't 5'5", 135lbs... I am living my dream.

Let the hairy men in dresses live theirs...

That is so funny, I'm 5'5 and 135lbs too.

Also as for the thread... I agree that people should just do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Well, it's a kind of private issue...

Quote from: Michelle. on November 04, 2011, 11:43:21 PM
Off topic... But...

What's the translation of Mahsa and just what is and how does one become a "disco shark".

I used to "shark" the gay dance floor... Basically, go up to guys and start kissing them or grabbing their parts. It also signifies my no nonsense approach to people & life...how life is basically a giant shark tank..

Mahsa is named after Mahsa Navi a Persian pop star. People actually call me Miki... But I also go by Lana...

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 11:42:44 PM
This thread is nothing without pics.

Read the Wiki Hon my Vagina is there for you to look at, but ya gotta find it...  It's not the best picture as it was still just fixed... But why would you want to look at it?

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 11:41:13 PM
A dude in a dress... That's priceless... 

Oh and many vaginas are hairy, many are bald, and the there are others neatly trimmed.  Mine happens to be neatly trimmed, just had a bikini wax :P

Why is your fb link broken? Please fix it.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 11:48:13 PM
Why is your fb link broken? Please fix it.

Oops... That's right when I got married I took my husbands name, have to fix it.

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 11:49:58 PM
Oops... That's right when I got married I took my husbands name, have to fix it.

It is like dead.... I want to see your fb.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 11:48:13 PM
Why is your fb link broken? Please fix it.

Fixed.

Quote from: JoeyD on November 04, 2011, 11:46:12 PM
I'm sure Mahsa did it in a more fabulous way though.

Pink mirrors...

Yes I have a history of drug use...Isn't anyone surprised?

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 11:41:04 PM
Damn right I do.... I would have done drag on the weekends if I wasn't 5'5", 135lbs... I am living my dream.

Let the hairy men in dresses live theirs...

Your 5'5",135ilbs? Hey, Mahsa haters!!! Gots room for one more??
I kid...

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 04, 2011, 11:52:41 PM
Pink mirrors...

Yes I have a history of drug use...Isn't anyone surprised?

Same here.
No judgement on my part.

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 11:41:13 PM
Mine happens to be neatly trimmed, just had a bikini wax :P

  That's wonderful Steph! Look i want SRS/GRS but i think appearance is so much more important to a trans woman. I mean whats the point in getting bottom surgery if your too ugly to attract a man? I'd so rather pass and blend in with other women then have a vagina, isn't that the point of transition?


  Just my opinion guys...

 

Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 04, 2011, 11:55:47 PM

  That's wonderful Steph! Look i want SRS/GRS but i think appearance is so much more important to a trans woman. I mean whats the point in getting bottom surgery if your too ugly to attract a man? I'd so rather pass and blend in with other women then have a vagina, isn't that the point of transition?


  Just my opinion guys...

I attracted this bro who had hot girls all over his fb...what? He wasn't after my penis, but rather my non existent vagina. It's a matter of attracting a guy who is open minded and not a dick... Straight men are a new concept to me.. still learning their ways.

but damn...He wanted to do me so bad...Until I clued him in I was trans... then it was judgement day.

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 11:41:13 PM
A dude in a dress... That's priceless... 

Oh and many vaginas are hairy, many are bald, and the there are others neatly trimmed.  Mine happens to be neatly trimmed, just had a bikini wax :P

again TMI!

Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 04, 2011, 11:55:47 PM

  That's wonderful Steph! Look i want SRS/GRS but i think appearance is so much more important to a trans woman. I mean whats the point in getting bottom surgery if your too ugly to attract a man? I'd so rather pass and blend in with other women then have a vagina, isn't that the point of transition?


  Just my opinion guys...

ill jump on that opinion! I agree.

Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 04, 2011, 11:55:47 PM

  That's wonderful Steph! Look i want SRS/GRS but i think appearance is so much more important to a trans woman. I mean whats the point in getting bottom surgery if your too ugly to attract a man? I'd so rather pass and blend in with other women then have a vagina, isn't that the point of transition?


  Just my opinion guys...

Well that depends on the woman.  Women come in all shapes and sizes, pretty, not so pretty.  While it would be naive of me to say that looks do not play an important role when attracting a man, there is a man out there for everyone, you just have to find him, which can be half the fun.

Quote from: Jen-Jen on November 05, 2011, 12:02:40 AM
again TMI!
ill jump on that opinion! I agree.

I agree with you agreeing with her opinion.

This is who was responsible for creating MAHSA:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc4%2F150837_173020956053871_100000379048523_434029_4332088_n.jpg&hash=6df28e46eaad7f29f57423443c696cea18ca647d)

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 08:07:35 PM
The problem is that your very words are insulting to post-ops and restating them in a thread meant to try and mend fences will not work.

Thing is?  I agree with most of your posts in the opening.  I'm not a nice person nor am I in a good mood soo... Ya, I don't want to be put under the same umbrella as the OP.  I really don't and wether you like it or not?  You make the boat for those of us trying to go the whole way a ->-bleeped-<- ton harder OP.

Quote from: Steph on November 05, 2011, 12:07:00 AM
Well that depends on the woman.  Women come in all shapes and sizes, pretty, not so pretty.

This is true.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 05, 2011, 12:07:27 AM
This is who was responsible for creating MAHSA:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-snc4%2F150837_173020956053871_100000379048523_434029_4332088_n.jpg&hash=6df28e46eaad7f29f57423443c696cea18ca647d)

  You looked like a girl even as a boy!  :o  :D

Quote from: Steph on November 04, 2011, 08:39:18 PM
Generally speaking people who call themselves women but love their penises do not help the plight of TS, society see's women with penises as chicks with dicks and the porn industry is filled with what they refer to as "She Males"; deviants who make money making porn.

There aren't many women who would want to be called that, and I certainly don't believe that women in society would believe that a woman can have a penis unless it was a freak of nature.  I think that if you went out and asked, the vast majority of men and women would say that women have vaginas not penises.

Well, Steph hit the nail on the head.
Wagging your dangle, declaring how much a great thing it is, and THEN expecting to be accepted a female will not even wash in the porn industry. There you a chick-with-a-dick, a ->-bleeped-<-, and good to serve some prevy cliental. Period.
Never mind post-ops would find this stance any more appealing.

IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? REALLY?

It just FEELS so wrong, and THAT - not only to post-ops.
You think a female born with an abnormality will keep rubbing it in, as some great thing to have, and bragging with it?!
It's something that some here just do not seem to get - ever.

You obviously can not FEEL it, so you do not UNDERSTAND it...

But there you go,
Axelle

Good night all have fun...

Quote from: Axélle on November 05, 2011, 12:22:53 AM
Well, Steph hit the nail on the head.
Wagging your dangle, declaring how much a great thing it is, and THEN expecting to be accepted a female will not even wash in the porn industry. There you a chick-with-a-dick, a ->-bleeped-<-, and good to serve some prevy cliental. Period.
Never mind post-ops would find this stance any more appealing.

IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? REALLY?

I showed up to meet a guy in SF and I was like, "You want my penis, right?" and he was like, 'what the hell are you talking about?" and then I explained to him what I was and he was like, "I was after your vagina...But not anymore since you don't have anyone"

Quote from: Axélle on November 05, 2011, 12:22:53 AM
Well, Steph hit the nail on the head.
Wagging your dangle, declaring how much a great thing it is, and THEN expecting to be accepted a female will not even wash in the porn industry. There you a chick-with-a-dick, a ->-bleeped-<-, and good to serve some prevy cliental. Period.
Never mind post-ops would find this stance any more appealing.

IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? REALLY?

It just FEELS so wrong, and THAT - not only to post-ops.
You think a female born with an abnormality will keep rubbing it in, as some great thing to have, and bragging with it?!
It's something that some here just do not seem to get - ever.

You obviously can not FEEL it, so you do not UNDERSTAND it...

But there you go,
Axelle

That's mischaracterizing non-operative transsexuals in the extreme.

They're not "wagging their dangle", and even if they were, there wouldn't be anything wrong with it, because people are allowed to be proud of their genitals, and proud of their sexuality, and proud of their identity.  To suggest otherwise, that they should hide their genitalia because it offends some peoples' sensibilities, is slut-shaming.

I'm a pre-operative transsexual and I'm sexually active.  I'm not ashamed of that fact, and whether or not I choose to have sex right now is my business.  It's not an abnormality, it just is, and for others acceptant, satisfied or even happy with their genitalia, to call their genitalia abnormal is offensive.

I don't think my mentality is going to change through some magic nervous transduction from my vulva to my brain after SRS.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on November 05, 2011, 12:33:33 AM
That's mischaracterizing non-operative transsexuals in the extreme.

They're not "wagging their dangle", and even if they were, there wouldn't be anything wrong with it, because people are allowed to be proud of their genitals, and proud of their sexuality, and proud of their identity.  To suggest otherwise, that they should hide their genitalia because it offends some peoples' sensibilities, is slut-shaming.

I'm a pre-operative transsexual and I'm sexually active.  I'm not ashamed of that fact, and whether or not I choose to have sex right now is my business.  It's not an abnormality, it just is, and for others acceptant, satisfied or even happy with their genitalia, to call their genitalia abnormal is offensive.

I don't think my mentality is going to change through some magic nervous transduction from my vulva to my brain after SRS.

+1

You just offended some people by being yourself. *slaps you on the wrist*

Clientele, as I said.

I had this situation in reverse on the The Reeperbahn in Hamburg some many years back.
I had compassion for the person, she also was an excellent stripper, and well presented - but a NO THANK YOU - for me (for paid intercourse in the back room to be more precise).
Yet of course NOT for her clientele, she told me as much, as much you told just now.

All it makes you, is some 'speciality' attraction to some folk - now what does that mean?

You go provide your own answer if you wish,
Axelle

Quote from: Axélle on November 05, 2011, 12:46:55 AM
Clientele, as I said.

I had this situation in reverse on the The Reeperbahn in Hamburg some many years back.
I had compassion for the person, she also was an excellent stripper, and well presented - but a NO THANK YOU - for me (for paid intercourse in the back room to be more precise).
Yet of course NOT for her clientele, she told me as much, as much you told just now.

All it makes you, is some 'speciality' attraction to some folk - now what does that mean?

You go provide your own answer if you wish,
Axelle

Just because some people have kinks and fetishes that involve someone's genitalia doesn't mean that someone who doesn't want surgery can't completely validly identify however they want.

So what does it mean?  Pretty much nothing, actually.

Quote from: Axélle on November 05, 2011, 12:46:55 AM
Clientele, as I said.

I had this situation in reverse on the The Reeperbahn in Hamburg some many years back.
I had compassion for the person, she also was an excellent stripper, and well presented - but a NO THANK YOU - for me (for paid intercourse in the back room to be more precise).
Yet of course NOT for her clientele, she told me as much, as much you told just now.

All it makes you, is some 'speciality' attraction to some folk - now what does that mean?

You go provide your own answer if you wish,
Axelle

Cool story sis....

Quote from: Jen-Jen on November 04, 2011, 10:21:18 PM
  uh.. no honey! That's just them going to the beach or pool! That's not flaunting their vaginas! That's what women wear silly!   Yes it makes us pre-ops jelous we can't but it not flaunting vaginas its flaunting hot bodys!

And no a non op that tucks is not contradictory, its not to imitate a vagina its to get a nice flat look! It just looks good in some outfits! Its not hiding the penis, there's no way to do that! Plus men hide their penis that's why they wear pants!

Not to imitate a vagina but get a flat look, common now isn't that flat look because that's what a vagina looks like under clothes - no bulges.

Yes men wear pants but they don't tuck to 'get a nice flat look'.  All the men I know couldn't give two hoots if there is a bulge, infact most want to project a bulge as it's a sign of malemess.

common now isn't that flat look because that's what a vagina looks like under clothes - no bulges.

fat vaginas.
they exist.

Quote from: Axélle on November 05, 2011, 12:22:53 AM
Well, Steph hit the nail on the head.
Wagging your dangle, declaring how much a great thing it is, and THEN expecting to be accepted a female

yeah, because you know all non ops and pre ops do that.  ::)

QuoteIt just FEELS so wrong, and THAT - not only to post-ops.

You are not in an authority to declare what feels right and what feels wrong for other people. You can only say what is right and wrong for you. Do not impose that morality on others.

QuoteYou think a female born with an abnormality will keep rubbing it in, as some great thing to have, and bragging with it?!

Intersex people have a complete authority on to know what an abnormality is. So are the blind and the deaf.  So many of them are proud of their bodies and they are an encouragement to others. You would learn well to understand not everyone born with an abnormality is ashamed of their bodies or what life dealt to them.

People respect and understand that there are trans girls who absolutely need the surgery. That same consideration should be met on all spectrum.

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 01:04:40 AM
common now isn't that flat look because that's what a vagina looks like under clothes - no bulges.

fat vaginas.
they exist.

That they do but it still looks very different to a bulge.

Wow! United much?

Do the Boys fight like this? Holy $&:%..
First of all, let me get this out in the open since we are all sharing.
I'm non-op but that's because I'm not trying to get a man, my family is more important to me than this thing between my legs and that situation changes, then I might start saving for SRS. But I WILL NOT Judge wether my Sisters are invalid because they chose not to have SRS. Wether it be they are happy with their Disco Stick or can't have SRS for medical reasons or you don't like the risks, I will not make someone feel inferior because of it. It's bad enough the ignorant people who think we are all a bunch of sissies, men in dresses, etc. Without my Sisters doing that to me. I mean how are we going to get basic rights if we can't even be unified among ourselves?
If you have SRS, great. But don't ever forget your roots and where you came from. We come from every walk of life and you should appreciate that your Sister didn't commit suicide and has the conviction to carry on without SRS. Let's face it, once you are Post-Op, life gets a little easier. Your are free to marry and be a wife if you choose to. In the eyes of the law, you are a woman and judged as such.

So can we please just get along? I've not seen the guys posting anything that says " you ain't no man unless you have a dick!"

Have a nice day! Sheesh!

Calling yourself a "woman" with a penis is a delusion, but hey people can call themselves whatever they want.  Just don't expect the world to accept your definition of "woman".    Women don't have penises, only men do. 

Also by claiming publicly that you enjoy your penis, you're jeopardizing the lives of true transsexuals (those who really need surgery, those for whom surgery is a matter of life and death) 

You claim our birth condition, then you post that since surgery isn't important to you, it must not be for anyone with true transsexualism. That is not just offensive, it already has put GRS, a lifesaving treatment for actual sufferers of true transsexualism at risk. That's reality.

& then you wonder why post-ops and true transsexuals oppose you?  seriously, what planet are you people from anyway?

Oh lord Jesus.

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 01:04:40 AM
common now isn't that flat look because that's what a vagina looks like under clothes - no bulges.

fat vaginas.
they exist.

Joey, your awesome!  I love you! I couldn't breathe I laughed so hard when I read this!

Quote from: Dinky_Di on November 05, 2011, 01:01:08 AM
Not to imitate a vagina but get a flat look, common now isn't that flat look because that's what a vagina looks like under clothes - no bulges.

Yes men wear pants but they don't tuck to 'get a nice flat look'.  All the men I know couldn't give two hoots if there is a bulge, infact most want to project a bulge as it's a sign of malemess.

like Joey said! Yes all men you know couldnt give a hoot, duh! Their men! I'm not!

Quote from: Wonderdyke on November 05, 2011, 12:33:33 AM
That's mischaracterizing non-operative transsexuals in the extreme.

They're not "wagging their dangle", and even if they were, there wouldn't be anything wrong with it, because people are allowed to be proud of their genitals, and proud of their sexuality, and proud of their identity.  To suggest otherwise, that they should hide their genitalia because it offends some peoples' sensibilities, is slut-shaming.

I'm a pre-operative transsexual and I'm sexually active.  I'm not ashamed of that fact, and whether or not I choose to have sex right now is my business.  It's not an abnormality, it just is, and for others acceptant, satisfied or even happy with their genitalia, to call their genitalia abnormal is offensive.

I don't think my mentality is going to change through some magic nervous transduction from my vulva to my brain after SRS.

+1 totally agree

Quote from: Jen-Jen on November 05, 2011, 01:41:50 AM
Joey, your awesome!  I love you! I couldn't breathe I laughed so hard when I read this!

:laugh:
<3 !

Quote from: Lilith on November 05, 2011, 01:34:06 AM
& then you wonder why post-ops and true transsexuals oppose you?  seriously, what planet are you people from anyway?

Last I checked, I was down to Earth.

I am sure people who hate transsexuals wonder what planet you're from or what species "It"(you) is. How does that feel?

A community divided against itself will not stand.

But if the true transsexual community is filled with people like you... I am so not gonna join. I am gonna have my cool party elsewhere... You know and give you fake directions to it.

Quote from: Lilith on November 05, 2011, 01:34:06 AM
Calling yourself a "woman" with a penis is a delusion,

That's exactly what those who are against transsexualism would say. Now we are having transsexuals saying it to transsexuals.

Tragic.

Quote from: Annah on November 05, 2011, 01:48:35 AM
That's exactly what those who are against transsexualism would say. Now we are having transsexuals saying it to transsexuals.

Tragic.

Tragically ironic.

So much for trans right, if you want to have a party in my pants....that none of you were invited to. Oh, that wasn't meant to be slutty...I like dudes.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 05, 2011, 01:51:52 AM
Tragically ironic.

So much for trans right, if you want to have a party in my pants....that none of you were invited to. Oh, that wasn't meant to be slutty...I like dudes.

the only peace I have out of the whole pre and non op attacks is that those trans who attack pre and post ops by saying they aren't women is a diminishing group of people.

Even the latest revision on WPATH states that non ops and pre op are ...as they call it "true trans."

So the only people who are only bitter at this are those against it and the only ones who will pat their backs and say "you are right" are growing smaller everyday.

Quote from: Annah on November 05, 2011, 01:56:01 AM

So the only people who are only bitter at this are those against it and the only ones who will pat their backs and say "you are right" are growing smaller everyday.

This is people being themselves. Last I checked there wasn't a right way to do things...

There is a larger enemy out there and it's not whether someone wants the surgery or not...

 :police:
Give me a reason why this thread should continue. It is, in my opinion, non-productive, a total waste of time and just leads to more hostility.

Cindy

I'm going to paint a big ol' target on my back here because I'm sickened by what I'm seeing.  I wrote this elsewhere and think it's time for me to air it publicly.  Please note that this is about the definition of transsexual, not about anything else.

--------------------------------------------

The view being espoused by some post-op women of late does not, for the most part, define penis=man and vagina=woman so simplistically.  It has to do with desire: if you desire to surgically alter your physical organs, you're transsexual, but if you do not desire to alter your physical organs, you're simply not transsexual.  It has nothing to do with whether you're a man or a woman because, as we all know, sex does not equal gender.

So if sex does not equal gender, then why are we forced to accept transsexual and transgender as synonymous?  The way we see the transsexual condition is that our desire to alter our bodies to match how we feel inside burns to the point of having to choose either death or surgery.  And since, at least in America, surgery is financially out of the question for many transsexuals, too many of us choose death since we see it as the only option.  We'd LOVE to drive the point home to the populous, to bureaucrats, to insurance companies, that our condition is not a choice or a lifestyle option.  Surgery is NOT optional when the only alternative is death.

But our voice is drowned out as we're told to conform to the TG umbrella and say that we're no different than people for whom death isn't a viable alternative to total physical transition.  That's where our passion comes from.  And yes, we have compassion.  Yes, we have hearts.  Yes, we have feelings.  We're human beings and imperfect as a result.  You want to know why transsexual men aren't included in what appears to be a rigid demarcation of surgical-based terminology?  Because if a transsexual man desires surgery, then he is transsexual.  If he chooses not to accept the current methods because of functional or aesthetic reasons, that's okay.  Trust me: your transsexual sisters' hearts bleed for you because we don't know what it's like to have these passions for physical change and no option that produces a result where nobody could tell the difference between you and someone born with the right genetics.  Not to mention the cost, which is exorbitant compared to our surgeries!  To us, that's unthinkable pain.

Likewise, we have deep compassion for those who desire a surgical option but are unable to go under the knife due to health reasons.  It once again comes down to the desire to surgically change one's sex organs.

So what about those who don't desire a full change or for whom their thoughts don't scream "surgery or die" on an hourly basis?  Sorry, but we don't see how that can be called transsexual, because sex does not equal gender and so not wanting to change sex organs doesn't really fit our terminology.  And here's the point of contention: everyone under the transgender umbrella gets to call themselves what they are.  Crossdressers can call themselves crossdressers.  TVs are TVs.  Androgynes are androgynes.  They even get to discuss why other groups aren't like them.  But woe to the transsexual who stands up and says "I am transsexual and here is why."  No, we're forced to call ourselves the umbrella term, thus forcibly being told that we're no different than anyone else.  Our need to choose surgery or suicide is completely negated by people who blissfully continue life with the body parts they're born with.  When's the last time you told a suicidal person that their feelings simply didn't matter and that they don't need specialized care or an extra lifeline?  Well, we're fighting for that care and those lifelines for all who wish to reach for them, regardless of income.

But without a clear and defining public message, we'll NEVER see those lifelines materialize.  Our stance isn't one of saying "screw the rest of you" but instead is fighting for what we need for our survival.  If we muddy the message with the agendas of people who don't have the suicide rate of transsexuals, then we won't see results that cause those rates to dip.  It's like saying people with major depressive disorder are no different than people with narcissistic personality disorder simply because both disorders are in the DSM.

Is this making any more sense?  It goes way beyond penis=man and vagina=woman.  That's both an oversimplification and demonization of our message and our goals.  We have no intention of telling anyone how to transition or who they are, just please don't say you're one of us if you're not because what good is terminology otherwise?  If you have blonde hair, blue eyes, and pale skin, do you call yourself black?  See?  It doesn't work that way.

Quote from: Lilith on November 05, 2011, 01:34:06 AM
Also by claiming publicly that you enjoy your penis, you're jeopardizing the lives of true transsexuals (those who really need surgery, those for whom surgery is a matter of life and death) 

You claim our birth condition, then you post that since surgery isn't important to you, it must not be for anyone with true transsexualism. That is not just offensive, it already has put GRS, a lifesaving treatment for actual sufferers of true transsexualism at risk. That's reality.

   I hate when people try' n label themselves "true transsexuals" when there is no such thing. We're all transsexuals here, just because you would rather die then keep your balls doesn't make you a "true transsexual" it just means your gender dysphoria is mainly focused around your genital area, nothing more. For some it's their facial hair for others it's their deep voice and for some it's their genitals - point is we all experience gender dysphoira differently.

  Why is this so hard for some people to understand?  ::)

Quote from: Cindy James on November 05, 2011, 02:08:44 AM
:police:
Give me a reason why this thread should continue. It is, in my opinion, non-productive, a total waste of time and just leads to more hostility.

Cindy

As an older transitioner, this may not be stuff you want to hear. But it is vital in creating a dialogue between the generations and those who have different views on the subject.

I'll reply to this as Cindy and not as a moderator.

I totally and completely agree with Zoe's comments.

There is nothing wrong or weird in being whatever sexual identity you have, there is nothing wrong with being the gender you identify with.

I identify as female and for me to be complete I need my surgery. There are enormous problems facing me in that respect.  I have total respect for people who do not want to follow my path. But please there are differences. The differences should not be a point of such aggressive misunderstanding. I do not hold to the thought that some TG are more TG than others. But I do know that some people need to have corrective surgery to keep their sanity, while others do not. There is a difference between us and we need to appreciate that difference and keep together as a larger community. This continual bickering does not do anyone any good, unless it educates. Education needs an open mind.

JMO

CJ

Why is everything being repeated!
Most of us here know it's okay to wanna keep your junk.

Can we just point out Lilith's (and others) ignorant comments and do something about THAT?

Zoe, I think the real crux of the problem is when someone says "you're not a woman because of this and this and this." 

Even WPATH is now interchanging the words transgender and transsexual now because they know that there simply is not a simple meaning. The spectrum is too diverse.

What matters the most to me is not whether someone calls me a transsexual rather if someone has the audacity of saying I am not a woman.

I define myself as a woman because that is who I am. To hell what anyone else thinks or say who I am. If anyone else says they are a woman or a man then who I am to say they are right or they are wrong? I am not God. I am not about to start telling someone that their gender identification is wrong because of what they look like. Society does that already to the trans people (regardless of what panel of the umbrella one belongs to).

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 02:34:50 AM
Why is everything being repeated!
Most of us here know it's okay to wanna keep your junk.

Can we just point out Lilith's (and others) ignorant comments and do something about THAT?

How about we stop publicly targeting people, hmm?

By the way, with the exception of Lilith's first sentence, her argument is identical to mine.   How about I remove my post too?  Is our point of view not allowed anymore?  Is transsexualism illegal here?  Funny, I thought this was a support site for everyone.

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 02:34:50 AM
Why is everything being repeated!
Most of us here know it's okay to wanna keep your junk.

Can we just point out Lilith's (and others) ignorant comments and do something about THAT?

So what your trying to say is everything you have said is right......

That's a bit rich and not being open to other peoples views.

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on November 05, 2011, 02:42:55 AM
Funny, I thought this was a support site for everyone.

It is but it is hardly support when some feel that they have the moral superiority to tell someone else they are not a woman or a man. How is that supportive?

Quote from: Cindy James on November 05, 2011, 02:31:27 AM
This continual bickering does not do anyone any good, unless it educates. Education needs an open mind.

There have been a few individuals pushing the opinion that those not intending to get GRS do not qualify as women.  They are specific enough that I do not think this is a misunderstanding.  This always results in some form of controversy.  I doubt many of the non-op position are that concerned with being called transsexual vs. transgender, when many of the pre- and post-op don't even care about that.

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on November 05, 2011, 02:42:55 AM
How about we stop publicly targeting people, hmm?

By the way, with the exception of Lilith's first sentence, her argument is identical to mine.   How about I remove my post too?  Is our point of view not allowed anymore?  Is transsexualism illegal here?  Funny, I thought this was a support site for everyone.

Lol maybe it was a bit mean.
But she was smited 3 times for what she said.
What she said wasn't right.

Quote from: Dinky_Di on November 05, 2011, 02:43:44 AM
So what your trying to say is everything you have said is right......

That's a bit rich and not being open to other peoples views.

Of course, I'm Jesus.
Everything I say is right.

Nah, I'm open to everything.
I don't have any views.

Everything I've said makes sense and is nice.
that's the difference.

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 02:49:17 AM
Lol maybe it was a bit mean.
But she was smited 3 times for what she said.
What she said wasn't right.

What was said my not be right to you, however that doesn't mean it wasn't right to others and smiting her for posting her opinion was really uncalled for.  Maybe I should go back through this thread and smite everyone who has posted a comment I don't agree with.  Not likely, I'm not that juvenile.

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on November 05, 2011, 02:12:50 AM
I'm going to paint a big ol' target on my back here because I'm sickened by what I'm seeing.  I wrote this elsewhere and think it's time for me to air it publicly.  Please note that this is about the definition of transsexual, not about anything else.

Alrighty, as someone who readily accepts the labels of trans* and transsexual but has serious issues with the term "transgender", this should be interesting.

I may disagree strongly with some points you make, but I won't flame you, I promise.  I like having rational, reasonable debate that doesn't descend into chaotic accusation on both sides.

Quote
The view being espoused by some post-op women of late does not, for the most part, define penis=man and vagina=woman so simplistically.  It has to do with desire: if you desire to surgically alter your physical organs, you're transsexual, but if you do not desire to alter your physical organs, you're simply not transsexual.  It has nothing to do with whether you're a man or a woman because, as we all know, sex does not equal gender.

See, I'm not opposed to a categorization of transsexual as the amplified, surgically-tracked or surgery-desiring incarnation of trans* people.  But some on this board have been making statements like "women do not have penises" or "a trans woman who does not wish to remove her penis is not a woman".  In addition, I'm a strong believer in the right of people to self-identify, so to exclude people from claiming a label because of something they can't help hardly seems fair.

Quote
So if sex does not equal gender, then why are we forced to accept transsexual and transgender as synonymous?  The way we see the transsexual condition is that our desire to alter our bodies to match how we feel inside burns to the point of having to choose either death or surgery.  And since, at least in America, surgery is financially out of the question for many transsexuals, too many of us choose death since we see it as the only option.  We'd LOVE to drive the point home to the populous, to bureaucrats, to insurance companies, that our condition is not a choice or a lifestyle option.  Surgery is NOT optional when the only alternative is death.

I agree that sex and gender are separate, but there are transsexual-identified people for whom their definition of the term is different from yours.  I'm not in any position to unilaterally declare one right, nor, really, is anyone.

Quote
But our voice is drowned out as we're told to conform to the TG umbrella and say that we're no different than people for whom death isn't a viable alternative to total physical transition.  That's where our passion comes from.  And yes, we have compassion.  Yes, we have hearts.  Yes, we have feelings.  We're human beings and imperfect as a result.  You want to know why transsexual men aren't included in what appears to be a rigid demarcation of surgical-based terminology?  Because if a transsexual man desires surgery, then he is transsexual.  If he chooses not to accept the current methods because of functional or aesthetic reasons, that's okay.  Trust me: your transsexual sisters' hearts bleed for you because we don't know what it's like to have these passions for physical change and no option that produces a result where nobody could tell the difference between you and someone born with the right genetics.  Not to mention the cost, which is exorbitant compared to our surgeries!  To us, that's unthinkable pain.

Likewise, we have deep compassion for those who desire a surgical option but are unable to go under the knife due to health reasons.  It once again comes down to the desire to surgically change one's sex organs.

So what about those who don't desire a full change or for whom their thoughts don't scream "surgery or die" on an hourly basis?  Sorry, but we don't see how that can be called transsexual, because sex does not equal gender and so not wanting to change sex organs doesn't really fit our terminology.  And here's the point of contention: everyone under the transgender umbrella gets to call themselves what they are.  Crossdressers can call themselves crossdressers.  TVs are TVs.  Androgynes are androgynes.  They even get to discuss why other groups aren't like them.  But woe to the transsexual who stands up and says "I am transsexual and here is why."  No, we're forced to call ourselves the umbrella term, thus forcibly being told that we're no different than anyone else.  Our need to choose surgery or suicide is completely negated by people who blissfully continue life with the body parts they're born with.  When's the last time you told a suicidal person that their feelings simply didn't matter and that they don't need specialized care or an extra lifeline?  Well, we're fighting for that care and those lifelines for all who wish to reach for them, regardless of income.

And again, I agree with you in certain respects— I think there are differences, but I think they're between those who have a polar gender identification and those who have a spectral identification, or a lack of gender identification at all, not between those with penises and those with vulvas.

Quote
But without a clear and defining public message, we'll NEVER see those lifelines materialize.  Our stance isn't one of saying "screw the rest of you" but instead is fighting for what we need for our survival.  If we muddy the message with the agendas of people who don't have the suicide rate of transsexuals, then we won't see results that cause those rates to dip.  It's like saying people with major depressive disorder are no different than people with narcissistic personality disorder simply because both disorders are in the DSM.

Is this making any more sense?  It goes way beyond penis=man and vagina=woman.  That's both an oversimplification and demonization of our message and our goals.  We have no intention of telling anyone how to transition or who they are, just please don't say you're one of us if you're not because what good is terminology otherwise?  If you have blonde hair, blue eyes, and pale skin, do you call yourself black?  See?  It doesn't work that way.

I understand your goal and I know where you're coming from, how a binary identification and a desire not to be falsely categorized by a frequently intolerant public.  But that doesn't mean you get to disenfranchise other trans* people of an identity they may wish to hold as well (and certainly not of the gender as which they wish to identify).

It was an ugly opinion.

Calling yourself a "woman" with a penis is a delusion,

  what planet are you people from anyway?


That's why she was smited.

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 02:34:50 AM
Why is everything being repeated!
Most of us here know it's okay to wanna keep your junk.

Can we just point out Lilith's (and others) ignorant comments and do something about THAT?

  Lol yeah i just didn't like how she preached about being a "true transsexual" if such a thing even exists. I think post-op's just have a strong dysphoria feeling towards their genitals so for them it's death or surgery, for non-op's it's other male things (voice, facial hair, body shape etc) that cause them severe dysphoria with their gender.


  That's my opinion on this. 

"Calling people out publicly"

Yeah, can we not pretend what was said was horrible.
Do something about it.
Or else I might not stay on this site, holy crap~

*** by the way I'm not really taking anything seriously.
It's ridiculous to make an actual argument when the same things been done about one million times.
no wonder all of you sound so ~rational~ about this.
I'm sure you've done this more than once.

Redonkulous, I say.

As I said in my previous post, I am non-op because my family is the most important thing to me. I am on Hormones and I started because I was almost ready to die because of my Dysphoria. I don't like my genitals, I think they are probably the worse thing on any body. But for now, I'm finally at peace. I've started to love who I am, not loath myself. Just getting that far has Been an accomplishment. And it really hurts that because I finally feel at peace and want to enjoy life with my family rather than see my kids once every 2 weeks and every other holiday I'm invalid. And by the people that I look to for support no less.
I don't go waving my giblets around, I have bigger problems than worrying about what I don't choose to share with the general population. So if you want to be like those ->-bleeped-<-s who think because you got your nuts cut off your still a guy, then all I can say thank you!
Thanks for topping the ->-bleeped-<-tiest day I've had in months! I am just as much a woman as anyone else here and no one else is in a position or has the right to tell me otherwise. 

Quote from: Wonderdyke on November 05, 2011, 02:57:58 AM
I understand your goal and I know where you're coming from, how a binary identification and a desire not to be falsely categorized by a frequently intolerant public.  But that doesn't mean you get to disenfranchise other trans* people of an identity they may wish to hold as well (and certainly not of the gender as which they wish to identify).

How did I disenfranchise anyone with my post?  See, that's the other thing that's been going on lately.  Anytime anyone talking about the transsexual position opens their mouths (er... keyboards?) we're supposedly denying everyone else their identity.  That's total and utter rubbish.  We're describing OUR experiences, which doesn't mean you don't have the right to your own experience.  Our presence doesn't invalidate anyone else, but that's been the current attitude.

And what's up with the whole invalidation argument anyway?  Are people's senses of self-identity so weak that someone talking about their personal experience threatens to tear you apart?  (I mean the royal "you," not you personally, WD).

It doesn't seem to matter how nicely we put it.  See my long post... I worked VERY hard not to disenfranchise or deny anyone the right to anything, and yet I'm still being accused of doing just that merely because I hold a certain opinion, an opinion that's apparently taboo now.  Face it: some of us believe in the gender binary.  If that's so hard to accept, then I'm at a loss.  I have no hard time believing people are third gender or gender neutral, or all manner in between.  No skin off my rosy nose.  One of my good friends is VERY much genderqueer and I'd never deny his identity and his right to express it.  But apparently those of us who live in the binary need to shut up?

Or, we can accept the fact that we're different and move on instead of militantly digging our knives into the other side's backs.

Oh, my. Hot topic.

Non-ops are transgendered, in that they fall under the umbrella. You may call them transsexual, as that's a medically correct term, however the technicality of it... is that you aren't going from one sex to the other in every sense of the word. That is, your sex isn't being changed. In either case, it's sort of a petty argument... definitions and classifications... our time could be better spent. But I suppose a little drama can be fun.

Pre-ops fall under that category too...

Now, then there's the woman and man thing. Again, definitions and classifications. If a woman is defined by her brain, then a non op or a pre op can be properly labelled as a woman. Most people here would agree with that, I imagine. On the other hand, if we are arguing man and woman as being defined by society's expectations or a man or woman, a non-op or pre-op would not always fit in the category they're transitioning to. But any argument with society is bound to be extremely variable... We're an extremely diverse race, a fact that I like more than I don't.

Now, arguing over what words to use for people is fun and all, but it's not terribly... productive. There are solid definitions, and there are technicalities - which also have solutions. I'm happy that our Disco Shark is happy with herself. And I'm happy for anyone that's happy about themselves. Genuinely. There is nothing to argue here... this thread is supposed to be about pride. Pride in oneself, and, it'd be nice if we were all proud of each other too.

Are we all proud of this thread? :p

Lets stop and recuperate.

Deep breathes and feelings of tolerance and good will.

No one has said anyone is more or less gender identified as any one else. The people who have gone to the level of full time life, surgical reconstruction, change all documents, erase the past, feel a bit different. Why shouldn't they? I'm not demoting anyone's genderism I'm commenting on how others feel. We need to see that and we are not. I do not know why.

I have it from close friends, when they had surgery, which may have taken years to get to, they feel different. They may have lived as a woman for years and accepted into society, but they feel different; this raises several questions. The first is why.  We seem to be stumbling over that at the moment.

From a personal point of view I like this debate but if people have problems let me know as a Mod. In this debate I am not a Mod.

Quote from: Jordan R.T. on November 05, 2011, 03:20:48 AM

Are we all proud of this thread? :p

I know I am...But I'm a vain narcissist... Hey, just being honest.

I'm proud for being one of the few on here who's made sane and reasonable comments.

lolsrsly.
I'm migrating to the FTM side.

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 03:26:56 AM
I'm proud for being one of the few on here who's made sane and reasonable comments.

I am proud of that too. We need to get together with Rukio and have a party...

In order to be a woman, you have to earn that title, and I don't mean just surgery, you have to go out there 24/7, 365 days a year every day of your life and live it as the woman you say you are.  You have to live, love, cry, work, study, be discriminated against, be exposed, as a woman in order to understand what a woman is.  If you don't do any of those things, calling yourself a woman is a bit of a stretch.   "Weekend" women or playing dress up on Saturday nights doesn't make you a woman.  Putting on a mini skirt once in a whilst and returning to your comfort zone (that of manhood, husband, father) when convenient doesn't make you a woman.

People calling themselves women when in reality they are nothing of that sort...and no I'm not attacking anyone here, I'm talking in a general sense.  It's the same bullcrap everwhere.  Sad to see how women who have been post op longer than some of you have been alive get bullied & silenced all the time.  Pathetic.

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 03:26:56 AM
I'm proud for being one of the few on here who's made sane and reasonable comments.

lolsrsly.
I'm migrating to the FTM side.

Haha. I value your comments. :)

Sometimes it's more about the drama than the debate... a little spice in the meal every now and then tastes good, y'know. I just wish some people didn't have to burn their mouths on it.

Quote from: Cindy James on November 05, 2011, 03:23:50 AM

No one has said anyone is more or less gender identified as any one else.

People have very literally said just that many times, even within this thread.  They don't say "I'm transsexual and you are transgender."  They say "I am woman and you are not."  Not everyone, but a few specific people.  There are direct quotes on this page, and all one has to do is go through any previous threads on this topic to find similar comments.

Quote from: Yvonne on November 05, 2011, 03:30:46 AM
In order to be a woman, you have to earn that title, and I don't mean just surgery, you have to go out there 24/7, 365 days a year every day of your life and live it as the woman you say you are.  You have to live, love, cry, work, study, be discriminated against, be exposed, as a woman in order to understand what a woman is.  If you don't do any of those things, calling yourself a woman is a bit of a stretch.   "Weekend" women or playing dress up on Saturday nights doesn't make you a woman.  Putting on a mini skirt once in a whilst and returning to your comfort zone (that of manhood, husband, father) when convenient doesn't make you a woman.

People calling themselves women when in reality they are nothing of that sort...and no I'm not attacking anyone here, I'm talking in a general sense.  It's the same bullcrap everwhere.  Sad to see how women who have been post op longer than some of you have been alive get bullied & silenced all the time.  Pathetic.

+1

I've been living this way since summer of 2009... I am also a transgender performer... But thats me out of face in my avatar...

Quote from: Yvonne on November 05, 2011, 03:30:46 AM
In order to be a woman, you have to earn that title, and I don't mean just surgery, you have to go out there 24/7, 365 days a year every day of your life and live it as the woman you say you are.  You have to live, love, cry, work, study, be discriminated against, be exposed, as a woman in order to understand what a woman is.  If you don't do any of those things, calling yourself a woman is a bit of a stretch.   "Weekend" women or playing dress up on Saturday nights doesn't make you a woman.  Putting on a mini skirt once in a whilst and returning to your comfort zone (that of manhood, husband, father) when convenient doesn't make you a woman.

People calling themselves women when in reality they are nothing of that sort...and no I'm not attacking anyone here, I'm talking in a general sense.  It's the same bullcrap everwhere.  Sad to see how women who have been post op longer than some of you have been alive get bullied & silenced all the time.  Pathetic.

AMEN SISTER. SPEAK YOUR PIECE, YOUR ENTITLED TO IT.

IF YOU DONT WALK THE WALK. YOU CANT CLAIM ANYTHING.

SOME PEOPLE LIVE IN FANTASY ISLAND, THEIR OKAY WITH THEIR PENIS SO WHY DO THEY TUCK IT AND HIDE IT AND NOT TELL THE GUYS OR GIRLS THEY FLIRT WITH THAT THEY HAVE ONE? LMFAO. OH BOY WHAT A MESS.

JUST SAYIN THE OBVIOUS TRUTH.

I honestly don't care what people do to their bodies or how they identify. I would just really, really desperately appreciate it if people could keep their comments confined to their own experience, their own lives, and their own identities.

I am sick of reading posts that tell me that I'm male until my surgery, that I was born male, etc. Feel free to say whatever you want about yourself, but it has nil to do with me.

Same goes for those who've said that SRS is unnecessary for me, or that really it should be called gender euphoria rather than dysphoria, or that I'm not allowed to call my transsexualism a birth defect.

Get your paws off my identity and out of my pants. :P

Quote from: winter88 on November 05, 2011, 03:47:08 AM
AMEN SISTER. SPEAK YOUR PIECE, YOUR ENTITLED TO IT.

IF YOU DONT WALK THE WALK. YOU CANT CLAIM ANYTHING.

SOME PEOPLE LIVE IN FANTASY ISLAND, THEIR OKAY WITH THEIR PENIS SO WHY DO THEY TUCK IT AND HIDE IT AND NOT TELL THE GUYS OR GIRLS THEY FLIRT WITH THAT THEY HAVE ONE? LMFAO. OH BOY WHAT A MESS.

JUST SAYIN THE OBVIOUS TRUTH.

Holy crap, you missed the point.

Quote from: JoeyD on November 05, 2011, 03:49:26 AM
Holy crap, you missed the point.

oh no im not in this im out of here im over this rant, bye. lol

 Some of these posts are reminiscent of Trade Chat from World of Warcraft. It's not easy to tell if some are serious, or if it's just for the thrill.

My bet? Well. I'll keep that to my tiny self.

Quote
oh no im not in this im out of here im over this rant, bye. lol

See you.  :)

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on November 05, 2011, 03:16:00 AM
How did I disenfranchise anyone with my post?  See, that's the other thing that's been going on lately.  Anytime anyone talking about the transsexual position opens their mouths (er... keyboards?) we're supposedly denying everyone else their identity.  That's total and utter rubbish.  We're describing OUR experiences, which doesn't mean you don't have the right to your own experience.  Our presence doesn't invalidate anyone else, but that's been the current attitude.

And what's up with the whole invalidation argument anyway?  Are people's senses of self-identity so weak that someone talking about their personal experience threatens to tear you apart?  (I mean the royal "you," not you personally, WD).

It doesn't seem to matter how nicely we put it.  See my long post... I worked VERY hard not to disenfranchise or deny anyone the right to anything, and yet I'm still being accused of doing just that merely because I hold a certain opinion, an opinion that's apparently taboo now.  Face it: some of us believe in the gender binary.  If that's so hard to accept, then I'm at a loss.  I have no hard time believing people are third gender or gender neutral, or all manner in between.  No skin off my rosy nose.  One of my good friends is VERY much genderqueer and I'd never deny his identity and his right to express it.  But apparently those of us who live in the binary need to shut up?

Or, we can accept the fact that we're different and move on instead of militantly digging our knives into the other side's backs.

I'm not saying y'all can't identify within the gender binary.  Who am I kidding: for the most part, I identify within the gender binary as well.  When I was talking about disenfranchising people, I wasn't really specifically referring to you (again, royal "you"), so much as the people who think that someone can't identify as female because of x or as transsexual because of x when their identity is just that.

In the same way that trans men and women "challenge" most societal assumptions of what being a man and woman really is, I think we should welcome non-operative trans* people challenging assumptions of what being trans* or transgender or transsexual really means (and I think that includes non-operative trans people identifying within the gender binary, if they so choose!)

I don't want fights, I want open discussion and thoughtful debate.  And I'm glad you're engaging in that too.

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on November 05, 2011, 02:12:50 AM
I'm going to paint a big ol' target on my back here because I'm sickened by what I'm seeing.  I wrote this elsewhere and think it's time for me to air it publicly.  Please note that this is about the definition of transsexual, not about anything else.

--------------------------------------------

The view being espoused by some post-op women of late does not, for the most part, define penis=man and vagina=woman so simplistically.  It has to do with desire: if you desire to surgically alter your physical organs, you're transsexual, but if you do not desire to alter your physical organs, you're simply not transsexual.  It has nothing to do with whether you're a man or a woman because, as we all know, sex does not equal gender.

So if sex does not equal gender, then why are we forced to accept transsexual and transgender as synonymous?  The way we see the transsexual condition is that our desire to alter our bodies to match how we feel inside burns to the point of having to choose either death or surgery.  And since, at least in America, surgery is financially out of the question for many transsexuals, too many of us choose death since we see it as the only option.  We'd LOVE to drive the point home to the populous, to bureaucrats, to insurance companies, that our condition is not a choice or a lifestyle option.  Surgery is NOT optional when the only alternative is death.

But our voice is drowned out as we're told to conform to the TG umbrella and say that we're no different than people for whom death isn't a viable alternative to total physical transition.  That's where our passion comes from.  And yes, we have compassion.  Yes, we have hearts.  Yes, we have feelings.  We're human beings and imperfect as a result.  You want to know why transsexual men aren't included in what appears to be a rigid demarcation of surgical-based terminology?  Because if a transsexual man desires surgery, then he is transsexual.  If he chooses not to accept the current methods because of functional or aesthetic reasons, that's okay.  Trust me: your transsexual sisters' hearts bleed for you because we don't know what it's like to have these passions for physical change and no option that produces a result where nobody could tell the difference between you and someone born with the right genetics.  Not to mention the cost, which is exorbitant compared to our surgeries!  To us, that's unthinkable pain.

Likewise, we have deep compassion for those who desire a surgical option but are unable to go under the knife due to health reasons.  It once again comes down to the desire to surgically change one's sex organs.

So what about those who don't desire a full change or for whom their thoughts don't scream "surgery or die" on an hourly basis?  Sorry, but we don't see how that can be called transsexual, because sex does not equal gender and so not wanting to change sex organs doesn't really fit our terminology.  And here's the point of contention: everyone under the transgender umbrella gets to call themselves what they are.  Crossdressers can call themselves crossdressers.  TVs are TVs.  Androgynes are androgynes.  They even get to discuss why other groups aren't like them.  But woe to the transsexual who stands up and says "I am transsexual and here is why."  No, we're forced to call ourselves the umbrella term, thus forcibly being told that we're no different than anyone else.  Our need to choose surgery or suicide is completely negated by people who blissfully continue life with the body parts they're born with.  When's the last time you told a suicidal person that their feelings simply didn't matter and that they don't need specialized care or an extra lifeline?  Well, we're fighting for that care and those lifelines for all who wish to reach for them, regardless of income.

But without a clear and defining public message, we'll NEVER see those lifelines materialize.  Our stance isn't one of saying "screw the rest of you" but instead is fighting for what we need for our survival.  If we muddy the message with the agendas of people who don't have the suicide rate of transsexuals, then we won't see results that cause those rates to dip.  It's like saying people with major depressive disorder are no different than people with narcissistic personality disorder simply because both disorders are in the DSM.

Is this making any more sense?  It goes way beyond penis=man and vagina=woman.  That's both an oversimplification and demonization of our message and our goals.  We have no intention of telling anyone how to transition or who they are, just please don't say you're one of us if you're not because what good is terminology otherwise?  If you have blonde hair, blue eyes, and pale skin, do you call yourself black?  See?  It doesn't work that way.

I agree with being able to call things what they are but using suicidal tendencies as an emotional strawman makes no sense. You are implying that for a transsexual there are only the options of achieving genital satisfaction or desiring suicide.

People can feel bad or very bad about things without commiting or wanting to commit suicide over them. You need to take a step back and realize that not everything you say is something you have in common with other transsexuals. The desires are by definition something you have in common. Your reaction to not satisfying those desires is a totally different issue that is based on your own personality. So the suicide stuff is not rigidly related and it has no place in the point you are trying to make. These are not by definition "issues of survival."

Quote from: winter88 on November 05, 2011, 03:51:28 AM
oh no im not in this im out of here im over this rant, bye. lol

Nah nah nah...hey hey...good bye!

Quote from: pretty on November 05, 2011, 04:12:48 AM
I agree with being able to call things what they are but using suicidal tendencies as an emotional strawman makes no sense. You are implying that for a transsexual there are only the options of achieving genital satisfaction or desiring suicide.

People can feel bad or very bad about things without commiting or wanting to commit suicide over them. You need to take a step back and realize that not everything you say is something you have in common with other transsexuals. The desires are by definition something you have in common. Your reaction to not satisfying those desires is a totally different issue that is based on your own personality. So the suicide stuff is not rigidly related and it has no place in the point you are trying to make. These are not by definition "issues of survival."

Some of what was said better fit the context of where it was originally posted than as a standalone commentary.

And I never meant to imply that every case was the same, but the vast majority of transsexuals I've talked to both online and in person went through at least one period of existential crisis like I described.  An overwhelming majority, to be honest.  Not saying some people never care about this matter, but my sampling of what's at least 70 to 80 surgery-tracked transsexuals reveals a significant presence of suicidality either pushing the drive to surgery or at least the need to start transition.  When I bring up the suicide issue, it's very much a valid part of my argument because the transsexual position fights for things like surgical equality with insurance companies and government legislation that might facilitate such action.  See, we want easy access to surgery for all who desire it, not just those who have a good enough job or some other good fortune.  It's hoped that tearing down barriers to surgical access might reduce the suicide rate.

Those who aren't feeling bad to the point of suicidality?  Good for them!  Our fight will help them too.  I was merely discussing the worst-case scenarios in my post.  And for the worst-case scenarios, these are definitely issues of survival.

+ 1
Axelle

Locked! Not for expression of opinions, but for the constant insults and misgendering of other people!

Z