Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Kia Ora,

::) This thread https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,108807.300.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,108807.300.html) got me thinking about the other side of the coin...

There are gay men who are like women in every way except for the fact, they don't crave a vagina and nor do they want to dress in women's clothes, yet they behave just like women...

I have a close friend in the UK whom I would describe in this 'gyne-co-mimic' way...His speech and mannerism are female, yet he's been in a loving 'same-sex' relationship for over thirty years-if on HRT he would make a very convincing female-he would'nt have to change a thing when it comes to his voice and behaviour...However he's happy with his maleness[body parts and 'male' privilege ]...

Food for thought......

Metta Zenda :)

I don't get it myself. I just accept it as one of the metric TON of different individual identities and relationship roles.

I really turned it on its ear when I was 'male'.

Straight male that was very girly.

Kia Ora,

::) No doubt some closeted M2Fs would be viewed by society[strangers who didn't know any better] as effeminate 'gay' men...

However when it comes to 'straight men, I once knew a guy who work at an hospital [he was a nurse] he was very 'camp' in his behaviour, yet was from what I gather 'happily married[to a female] and with children'...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: The Passage on November 05, 2011, 07:13:31 PM
I just accept it as one of the metric TON of different individual identities and relationship roles.

Yeah.  There are over 9,000 personalities.  I guess it's kinda hard to understand them all.

maybe they're confused?

For some reason, there's always been a high rate of feminine behaviour in gay men. Maybe they unconsciously think "well, my sexual orientation already pushes me off the platform of normality. So why force myself to be more manly than I actually am?" And I guess sometimes, coincidentally, those "liberated gays" are also naturally feminine men. There are probably many "feminine men" in the rest of the population, but they don't even know they are, since they modified their comportment to fit the male role and are okay with it.

Kia Ora,

::) In a sense, it would be gender expression 'only' for the gay male, and both expression and 'identity' for the M2F...

::) However there does seem to be a very fine line when it comes to gender expression and gender identity....

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on November 05, 2011, 11:13:55 PM
Kia Ora,

::) In a sense, it would be gender expression 'only' for the gay male, and both expression and 'identity' for the M2F...

::) However there does seem to be a very fine line when it comes to gender expression and gender identity....

Metta Zenda :)

Not sure it's nearly that straightforward. As far as I can tell my voice and mannerisms are pretty much the built-in factory versions - and both are very much of the female variety. I haven't messed with anything other than learning how to project a bit better so I don't sound like a mouse. It's part of why I really struggled to pass as a guy before I transitioned.

Not sure it has much to do with gender identity OR gender expression for me... Some of this stuff seems at least partly biological rather than exclusively social.

There seem to be a number of interesting points here.

Is, behaving like a man somehow learnt? Have some people simply not learnt? Is behaving like a female somehow inadequate? Are those that suggest efiminacy as a means of inuslt, (We all know what that means), attacking something innate or inadequate?

I think of my own situation. The one which brought me here. My dismorphia of my male appearance. Is that a symptom of my inability to learn to be a man? To stand up for myself? To be a tough guy, beating up those that annoy me and being socially boorish?

I am maried and have been for about 30 years. I will give up anything before I give up my wife. She is everything. It isn't sex. I don't do that. I would love to have had children. (sadly, no sex.  ::) ) Yet I am, sexually speaking gay. Is that an affirmation of my satisfaction with my male role? An acceptance of my male body? Is my apparent dissatisfaction with my maleness indicative of something more?

I make these points about myself, but they are intended generally, for the discussion.

Quote from: Zenda on November 05, 2011, 07:00:12 PM
Kia Ora,

::) This thread https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,108807.300.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,108807.300.html) got me thinking about the other side of the coin...

There are gay men who are like women in every way except for the fact, they don't crave a vagina and nor do they want to dress in women's clothes, yet they behave just like women...

I have a close friend in the UK whom I would describe in this 'gyne-co-mimic' way...His speech and mannerism are female, yet he's been in a loving 'same-sex' relationship for over thirty years-if on HRT he would make a very convincing female-he would'nt have to change a thing when it comes to his voice and behaviour...However he's happy with his maleness[body parts and 'male' privilege ]...

Food for thought......
Metta Zenda :)

---------------------
because we can,

to be simple its a question about steryotype, there are very femenine gay and straight men and very maculine straight and gay men.

however, if your straight then you have to be maculine, and so and its not much accepted to be femenine
on the other hand if your gay then its more accepting to be femenine, its actually more in your steryotype.

so for gay men it would be more okay to be like that.
I myself have been acting sorta maculine just to fit in the maculine role you sorta has to be to be a real man,
but as I got out I am pretty femenine, I sorta feel a diffrence between being with straight guys who are all like "chicks, soccer and so to be a real man!"
than being around gay guys who are more openminded and dont focus so much on the steryotypes but just as whatever you like.

the same goes for women btw. 

p.s. to be femenine or maculine dosent have anything to do with your gender or gender identety neither your sexual orientation.

Kia Ora,

Thanks for your responses...

I find it quite fascinating how opinions differ greatly on the hows and whys... 

::) If a female likes to play rugby, drink beer and sits with both feet on the ground and legs open, is she behaving in a masculine way ?

::) If a male likes to play netball, drink cocktails and sits with his legs crossed[knee over knee] and foot on the crossed leg pointing downwards, is he behaving in a feminine way ?

::) Is it nurture or nature that makes them to behave this way ?

::) Or is it a mixture of both ?

I know in the long run and for the most part it's what one feels 'comfortable' doing...

So where does this feeling of comfort come from ?

Why do we do what we do ?

Just some random thoughts...

Metta Zenda :)

These are interesting questions that you bring out :)

I think a gay have a feminine mode of perception regardling the preference of the object, where the desired object-gender is male, but he has little clinging to his subjective gender, and that his subjective gender can be easily shift according to demands of the object (partner). More like the case of pan-sexual person, except that gay has a heavy clinging to  the desired object-gender as male, that is, his perception of the subject (self-gender) can shift but his perception of the object (partner-gender) is not. Thus a gay may appeared feminine due to his physical traits, but it has little effect on him, than the physical attributes of other males that he admired, and can easily shift the subject gender perception (or role) if required to accommodate the demand of the partner.

I think gays who falsely considered themselves as MTF transsexual, one preference element that separate them from true MTF transsexual is the lack of definitive desire for the feminine organ (pussy), or show unusually high level of self-acceptance and contentment about their body with its existing male characteristics (self-acceptance and contentment due to little importance is place on one's subject-gender identity than toward the object-gender identity, thus may be showing higher passion toward having relationship with guys than to the goal of transition itself).  A typical gay will have no wish for transition (no need for hrt or srs), so these 'MTF transsexual' is very similar to them in the preference bracket.

Because they are women  >:-)

Jen61

Quote from: Zenda on November 05, 2011, 07:00:12 PM
Kia Ora,

::) This thread https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,108807.300.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,108807.300.html) got me thinking about the other side of the coin...

There are gay men who are like women in every way except for the fact, they don't crave a vagina and nor do they want to dress in women's clothes, yet they behave just like women...

I have a close friend in the UK whom I would describe in this 'gyne-co-mimic' way...His speech and mannerism are female, yet he's been in a loving 'same-sex' relationship for over thirty years-if on HRT he would make a very convincing female-he would'nt have to change a thing when it comes to his voice and behaviour...However he's happy with his maleness[body parts and 'male' privilege ]...

Whoever wrote this, needs to get out more.

They don't really. They just act fabulous and flamboyant. If it's a woman, it's a cariculture of one. Women don't act queeny...as anyone here knows by hanging out with GGs

Quote from: A on November 05, 2011, 10:22:36 PM
For some reason, there's always been a high rate of feminine behaviour in gay men. Maybe they unconsciously think "well, my sexual orientation already pushes me off the platform of normality. So why force myself to be more manly than I actually am?" And I guess sometimes, coincidentally, those "liberated gays" are also naturally feminine men. There are probably many "feminine men" in the rest of the population, but they don't even know they are, since they modified their comportment to fit the male role and are okay with it.

And I used to be one of them.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 06, 2011, 07:47:09 PM
Whoever wrote this, needs to get out more.

They don't really. They just act fabulous and flamboyant. If it's a woman, it's a cariculture of one. Women don't act queeny...as anyone here knows by hanging out with GGs

Kia Ora Mahsa,

::) It sounds like you started off like Georgina Beyer[a former NZ politician whose lead a very 'colourful' life she started out in the gay scene as a drag artist did  prostitution before realizing, she was transsexual, I think in her early twenties], however she ended up having surgery back in the early 1980s and has never looked back...

::) How long were you in the gay scene before finally accept you were trans ?

::) The friend I mentioned is not a stereotypical  over the top 'flaming' limp wrist queen, his mannerisms are more 'natural' 'gentle' and from what I gather he's only dressed in drag occasionally  [for fun]at parties in his younger days, like some gays often do[so do straights I guess, when going to fancy dress parties] but it was never a turn on for him so to speak...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Jacelyn on November 06, 2011, 06:52:42 PM
These are interesting questions that you bring out :)

I think a gay have a feminine mode of perception regardling the preference of the object, where the desired object-gender is male, yes that makes sense but he has little clinging to his subjective gender, and that his subjective gender can be easily shift according to demands of the object (partner). Again that makes sense  More like the case of pan-sexual person, except that gay has a heavy clinging to  the desired object-gender as male, that is, his perception of the subject (self-gender) can shift but his perception of the object (partner-gender) is not. Thus a gay may appeared feminine due to his physical traits, but it has little effect on him, than the physical attributes of other males that he admired, and can easily shift the subject gender perception (or role) if required to accommodate the demand of the partner.Sounds like my my friend in a nutshell...



I think gays who falsely considered themselves as MTF transsexual, one preference element that separate them from true MTF transsexual is the lack of definitive desire for the feminine organ (pussy), or show unusually high level of self-acceptance and contentment about their body with its existing male characteristics (self-acceptance and contentment due to little importance is place on one's subject-gender identity than toward the object-gender identity, thus may be showing higher passion toward having relationship with guys than to the goal of transition itself).  A typical gay will have no wish for transition (no need for hrt or srs), so these 'MTF transsexual' is very similar to them in the preference bracket.

Kia Ora Jacelyn,

::) Most gay men I know are straight acting, not macho just run of the mill men, mind you some do still retain the 'gay' voice...
There does seem to be a very fine line between the false M2F [as you put it] and the androphilic M2F whose mannerisms and behaviour are quite similar ...

Metta Zenda :) 

Quote from: Zenda on November 06, 2011, 09:52:13 PM

::) How long were you in the gay scene before finally accept you were trans ?

::) The friend I mentioned is not a stereotypical  over the top 'flaming' limp wrist queen, his mannerisms are more 'natural' 'gentle' and from what I gather he's only dressed in drag occasionally  [for fun]at parties in his younger days, like some gays often do[so do straights I guess, when going to fancy dress parties] but it was never a turn on for him so to speak...

I always assumed gay and trans were relative. My friend Adam was like, "You were so gay you became a chick". I mean I used to be a flamer...now I am hetero. But of course, gay men and het girls have similar personalities.

But really all I've done is change appearances. I'd prefer a gay man over a straight man...I feel comfortable around them. Maybe I am just too honest with myself... But I suppose I wish I was born female, but I was born male..

At least I look fabulous and that's all that matters. LOL

Quote from: Jen61 on November 06, 2011, 06:56:14 PM
Because they are women  >:-)

Jen61

Kia Ora Jen,

::) Back in the late 50s early 60s many in the mental health profession 'believed' gay men were 'women' trapped in men's bodies...Weird that...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 06, 2011, 09:59:46 PM
I always assumed gay and trans were relative. My friend Adam was like, "You were so gay you became a chick". I mean I used to be a flamer...now I am hetero. But of course, gay men and het girls have similar personalities.

But really all I've done is change appearances. I'd prefer a gay man over a straight man...I feel comfortable around them. Maybe I am just too honest with myself... But I suppose I wish I was born female, but I was born male..

At least I look fabulous and that's all that matters. LOL

Kia Ora Mahsa,

A while ago a friend [whom I came out to about my past] asked if a mutual 'gay' friend of ours was also transsexual, she like many 'out of the know' still believed when it came to gay men they were really woman trapped in a male body and some just 'chose to have GRS...It's gonna take some time for this line of thinking to dissolve...

Metta Zenda :)

Yeah when sexuality first started being studied scientifically (in Germany, in Hitler's era), trans and gay were lumped in together as "sexual inversion."

I think the OP's question is a good one, despite the fact that it will probably lead to some fighting and hurt feelings.

When I tried to be a girl, I was seen as pretty rough around the edges. I cuss too much, I dumpster-dive, I like to get dirty, I'm sexually aggressive, I carry a knife, etc.

Now that I've admitted that I'm a boy, I come across as kind of a fairy sometimes. I do sit knee over knee, my walk is slightly mincing, I'm slinky and silly, I like glitter as much as leather, and...well I'm still finding out which things I do aren't considered manly or hetero.

But I'm exactly the same person with the same habits. I was hardcore and tough as a girl, and I'm soft and sensitive as a boy. Labels change everything.

* It's gonna take some time for this line of thinking to dissolve... *

Yes!
A normal gay male will NEVER want to change his member for a vj - ever.
That's the hole attraction being gay male!
It also will never dissolve the dislike, disdain for female-bits.
Would you want to become physically what you disdain? Really?
You may provide your own answer.

That is where the major difference lies.
If the person is BI, it may be yet another story altogether.

Axelle

Quote from: Felix on November 06, 2011, 10:20:20 PM
Yeah when sexuality first started being studied scientifically (in Germany, in Hitler's era), trans and gay were lumped in together as "sexual inversion."

I think the OP's question is a good one, despite the fact that it will probably lead to some fighting and hurt feelings.

When I tried to be a girl, I was seen as pretty rough around the edges. I cuss too much, I dumpster-dive, I like to get dirty, I'm sexually aggressive, I carry a knife, etc.

Now that I've admitted that I'm a boy, I come across as kind of a fairy sometimes. I do sit knee over knee, my walk is slightly mincing, I'm slinky and silly, I like glitter as much as leather, and...well I'm still finding out which things I do aren't considered manly or hetero.

But I'm exactly the same person with the same habits. I was hardcore and tough as a girl, and I'm soft and sensitive as a boy. Labels change everything.

Kia Ora Felix,

::) I have a F2M friend who comes a cross as a 'gay' male[in his mannerism], but he has no interest in men whatsoever, he's happily married[well civil union here in NZ] to his cis-female partner...Another F2M I know [I'm not sure of his sexual orientation] however he comes across as a run of the mill new age guy...

Like yourself, I too haven't changed my habits/behaviour, only my physical appearance as changed plus the normal changes that occur with age...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Axélle on November 06, 2011, 10:25:51 PM
* It's gonna take some time for this line of thinking to dissolve... *

Yes!
A normal gay male will NEVER want to change his member for a vj - ever.
That's the hole attraction being gay male!
It also will never dissolve the dislike, disdain for female-bits.
Would you want to become physically what you disdain? Really?
You may provide your own answer.

That is where the major difference lies.
If the person is BI, it may be yet another story altogether.

Axelle

Kia Ora Axelle,

* It's gonna take some time for this line of thinking to dissolve... *

::) I was referring to the mind-set of some cis-folk when it came to gay men being 'women trapped in a male body'...

We may have gotten our wires crossed a little sorry...

Metta Zenda :)

What does this have to do with being transgendered?

Leave the gay men alone!!!! They are awesome.

* I was referring to the mind-set of some cis-folk when it came to gay men being 'women trapped in a male body'... *

Exactly what I understood. No crossed wire.
If they'd be "trapped" as in trans-folks they would want to be untrapped... right?

So, become what they are according to cis-folks ---- female??????

Joking, right?

Axelle
PS: I'm VERY fine with gay males myself "trans-fruit-fly" ?
I was speaking of cis-folks' misconceptions, - if that was not clear.

My partner and I have presented some Trans 101 workshops. We have often found that explaining the range of possibilities with this (or similar diagram) helps people really get the diversity. We look at four distinct aspects, each line is a continuum, so a person could be anywhere along that, not simply either/or.

Physical sex

Male ------------ Intersex ---------- Female

Gender identity (how we internally perceive our gender, regardless of external appearances)

Male ------------ Androgyne/Genderqueer/etc ---------- Female

Gender expression (how we externally express our gender, or how we would like to express it)

Masculine ------------ Androgynous/Genderqueer ---------- Feminine

Sexual Orientation (Who we are attracted to)

Male ------------ bisexual/pansexual/asexual/etc ---------- Female

So a person as described earlier in thread could be male bodied, gender identity male, gender expression and mannerisms between genderqueer and feminine, and attracted to males.

Try this chart for yourself. For example, I am male bodied (assigned male at birth); my gender identity is somewhere on a continuum of androgyne/female; my preferred gender expression is on a continuum of androgynous/feminine; my orientation is bisexual (I am attracted to the person, not their sex/gender).

Z

I'm sorry, but I seriously hate that chart and I've seen it way, way too many times.

How about:

Gender Assigned at Birth: (Self-evident.)

Male. Female.

Actual Gender: (The gender you experience yourself to be.)

Male. Female. Androgyn. Genderqueer. (Note, this is not a spectrum, but a galaxy of options - and picking more than one is cool too.)

Gender Expression: (How our self-expression is perceived in gendered terms within the context of our society and culture.)

Male ---- Androgynous/Mixed ---- Female.

Sexual Orientation: (Who you want to ->-bleeped-<- and/or fall in love with - which may or may not be the same.)

Androsexual ------------- bisexual/pansexual/asexual/etc. -------- Gynesexual


I was assigned male at birth. I am in actuality female. I am perceived as an androgynous-presenting female. I am romantically and sexual attracted to women (gynesexual / lesbian).

Sarah7,

... amazing, you just explained my chart... and I wonder for how many other MtFs... :-)

Jolly good show!
Axelle

Sarah,

I totally agree on calling it "Gender Assigned at Birth" rather than "sex", and also that multiple options are possible for "Actual Gender". You'll notice that I chose multiple descriptors for both my gender identity and expression, I probably would have chosen a few more if I'd had more coffee  ;D

Z

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 07, 2011, 04:13:48 AM
What does this have to do with being transgendered?

Leave the gay men alone!!!! They are awesome.

Kia Ora Mahsa,

::) Just in case you didn't know,  ;) there're quite a few trans-people who 'fear' being mistaken for 'gay' and there're quite a few cis-people[and gay-people] who see trans-people as 'gyne/andro-co-mimic' gays... Some gays[most definately not all] tend to think trans-people just feel too ashamed [because of the stigma surrounding homosexuality] to admit to their homosexual tendencies ...It's warped logic on their part, but life can be weird at time  ;)

::) You're right for the most part 'gay people' are awesome I have many gay/lesbian friends on the island where I live... We are one big 'happy' family...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on November 07, 2011, 12:25:01 PM
Kia Ora Mahsa,

::) Just in case you didn't know,  ;) there're quite a few trans-people who 'fear' being mistaken for 'gay' and there're quite a few cis-people[and gay-people] who see trans-people as 'gyne/andro-co-mimic' gays... Some gays[most definately not all] tend to think trans-people just feel too ashamed [because of the stigma surrounding homosexuality] to admit to their homosexual tendencies ...It's warped logic on their part, but life can be weird at time  ;)

Really, most gay men i've met are cool. They can easily clock most transsexuals too.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 07, 2011, 01:25:50 PM
Really, most gay men i've met are cool. They can easily clock most transsexuals too.

Kia Ora Mahsa,
 
::) Believe it or not there 'are' gay and lesbian people who still think trans-people are just gays in denial [ deeply homophobic]...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on November 07, 2011, 01:40:29 PM
Kia Ora Mahsa,
 
::) Believe it or not there 'are' gay and lesbian people who still think trans-people are just gays in denial [ deeply homophobic]...

Metta Zenda :)

Well when two crossdressers have sex with each other... Thats pretty gay. There are certainly gay tendencies.

If I have sex with a drag queen, it doesn't make me a "lesbian".

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 07, 2011, 01:57:57 PM

If I have sex with a drag queen, it doesn't make me a "lesbian".

Kia Ora Mahsa,

::) Unless the drag queen's a closeted transsexual that is, then you could be either bi or lesbian ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on November 07, 2011, 10:48:59 PM
Kia Ora Mahsa,

::) Unless the drag queen's a closeted transsexual that is, then you could be either bi or lesbian ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

If they are living as a gay male...they are a gay man in drag. I don't know what is going on in their heads.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 07, 2011, 10:57:06 PM
If they are living as a gay male...they are a gay man in drag. I don't know what is going on in their heads.

Kia Ora Mahsa,

::) So why would a 'gay' drag queen want to have sex with a 'woman' then?

"If I have sex with a drag queen, it doesn't make me a "lesbian".

::) What does it make you ?

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on November 07, 2011, 11:26:40 PM
Kia Ora Mahsa,

::) So why would a 'gay' drag queen want to have sex with a 'woman' then?

"If I have sex with a drag queen, it doesn't make me a "lesbian".

::) What does it make you ?

Doesn't make me anything. Cuz I'm not going there.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 07, 2011, 11:29:21 PM
Doesn't make me anything. Cuz I'm not going there.

Kia Ora Mahsa,

::) But you're already there girl !  ;)

Metta Zenda :)

... sex with a 'woman' as in non-, pre-op trans-woman, not as in bio-woman or post-op woman, right?

Else this makes no sense WHAT SO EVER.
A gay male is gay - BECAUSE he has no interest in sex with bio-females or anyone with a vj.
For all I know they'd find the thought of it repulsive... never mind the deed.
No dangle, no deed, yes?

...
Axelle

Quote from: Axélle on November 07, 2011, 11:41:12 PM
... sex with a 'woman' as in non-, pre-op trans-woman, not as in bio-woman or post-op woman, right?

Else this makes no sense WHAT SO EVER.
A gay male is gay - BECAUSE he has no interest in sex with bio-females or anyone with a vj.
For all I know they'd find the thought of it repulsive... never mind the deed.
No dangle, no deed, yes?

...
Axelle

I had sex with plenty of gay men...who were more on the bi-side.

BI makes plenty sense, yes --- in fact so much so, they now 'can have their cake and eat it' !

Cake, hum? Frankfurter, um! :-)

Axelle

Quote from: Axélle on November 08, 2011, 02:03:01 AM
BI makes plenty sense, yes --- in fact so much so, they now 'can have their cake and eat it' !

Cake, hum? Frankfurter, um! :-)

Axelle

Frankfurter? I HATE RHPS. and don't compare me to that disgusting ->-bleeped-<-.

Noooooooooo, I don't, shan't, won't - just no more fun to be had these days, eish!

I was not sure if Vienna, or Frankfurter, or... Russian, hum.
I mean cake was just too close to cookie, and THAT might bring on some other aversions yet?

So, ah - actually I better don't know what we talking about :-)

As for myself - I did like that RHPS ->-bleeped-<-, smoking hot, he he.

Axelle

Quote from: Axélle on November 08, 2011, 02:44:08 AM

So, ah - actually I better don't know what we talking about :-)

As for myself - I did like that RHPS ->-bleeped-<-, smoking hot, he he.

Listen, I like you. But you're eccentric and definitely a character.

Kia Ora,

::) According to Taoist philosophy of "Yin & Yang" ...It would seem gay men who act/behave like women are exhibiting too much Yin and too little Yang...

::) The Taoists use yin and yang to describe two opposing forces that make up everything that exists. And we all have yin and yang within us. Men are essentially more yang and women are essentially more yin.

::) While women are essentially more yin and men are essentially more yang, there are women and men whose inner essence is not in tune with their physical sex. There are women with a strong yang essence and men with a strong yin essence.


Metta Zenda :)