Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Ok, I apologise now if this quiestion is naive or just plain dumb, but it just popped into my head whilst I was cooking dinner, and I am interested on views and opinions.

I know many bio-women who do not care to dress effeminately, who prefer instead to wear jeans and t's all the time.

I know a few that openly detest skirts and dresses, often saying their legs are not up to it, or they dont like the look.

All these women are straight (as far as I know  :) ), are not TG's, have male partners, some are married and have kids.

In all cases they are Women, full stop.


Soooo why do transgender women HAVE to go through RLT and dress like a woman for a certain amount of time, before doctors will put them forward for HRT?

Why do transgender women have put to put themselves in a position they may not like, wear clothes they may not feel comfortable in, when many bio-women do not have to?

It seems like descrimination?



I said it might be a naive or dumb question  :P

As usual I have posted and then realised that I left most of my post in my head!

Not editing my original one, as I can see some people have already read it.


I guess what I was driving at in the original post is...

Why do we have to dress like a woman, to be the woman we know we are, especially when many bio-women don't dress like women anyway?

Yet to get HRT and SRS you have to prove to other people that you are who you want to be, but surely its YOUR own opinion that counts, no one elses?

Why is up to Drs and Councellors to decide for you that you are worthy of being the woman that you know you are?


I'm sorry, I guess I have taken in so much info over the last couple of weeks, that I am now mentally throwing up, and alas there isnt anywhere else for me to do it  :-\

If anyone wants to talk about this 1-on-1 my MSN Messenger is missplaceduk@gmail.com

I agree, the gate keepers can be a pain.  Although I do like skirts and dresses and have no problem wearing them (the only time I wear pants is when I have to crawl around in an attic or crawlspace or under a clients desk, and no, I am not playing under that desk, just fixing computer cabling problems).  It is funny that women can wear "men's" clothes anytime the want.

I used to tease my spouse about that all the time, she never saw the correlation.  She wears a skirt or dress about once a month or so.  Oh well, I guess that is life.

Sarah

I don't know if you necessarily have to wear clothes that are traditionally feminine. I think the important point is that you are presenting as female for RLT.

The latter may indicate in someone who looks somewhat ambiguous that more feminine clothing might make it easier.

Depends on your care providers I guess.

Dennis

Hey there.

QuoteYet to get HRT and SRS you have to prove to other people that you are who you want to be, but surely its YOUR own opinion that counts, no one elses?

Why is up to Drs and Councellors to decide for you that you are worthy of being the woman that you know you are?

I know how you feel.  You are echoing how I felt and still feel to a large degree.   Here in Ontario we have what was called the Clarke Institute, the ultimate Gate Keepers.  My first dr referred me to them for counseling and therapy when I came out to her a while back.  It is quite a process they put you through.  First you have to fill out a ridiculous questionnaire and mail it to them, then they contact you with a appointment to go before their panel.  The panel consists of you first meeting with a medical dr who is an "expert in the trans field, then you go before three wise men/women (pshrinks) and you have to suffer under their questions.  The next day you go through almost the same thing.   based on this they make their decision and mail it back to you in about 4 weeks.  You are either a woman or a man.  Easy huh!. 

But the truth is that while you may be sure that you know who and what you are, there are many who have gone before and mistakes have been made.  Surgeons have to be sure that they are doing the right thing to the right person for the right reasons.  It's true you are the one paying the cash, but who will pay if mistakes are made, and there have been mistakes.

I hate the thought of having to apply to the powers that be for the job of "Woman" with papers in hand, but the final results are worth it, don't you think.

Chat later,

Steph

Ooooooooo, I hope you are not using your real name!

They do not want people to know what you said!  Who do you think you are to think for yourself?  Who do you think you are that you can see for yourself what women are really like!?

Don't you know that this is not part of the program!

Why, where would all the mental health professionals be if the average person were simply allowed to spend their own money as they see fit, and modify their body any way they want?

Anarchy I say, anarchy!!!

Why before you know it, all of the gender identity centers would run out of money (and there is a LOT of it), and a bunch of over-educated folx would be out of a job.

And with little to no therapy to pay for, and saving all of their money that they would have blown on tons of clothing and make-up and whatnot they did not really want anyways, a continuous stream of peeps would be lining up at the surgeons with plenty of money to spare!

Geez, we cannot have that, now can we????

From my understanding and talking with my therapist periodically, you just have to live as a woman and present as a woman. Now think about the myriad of choices you have with that. You don't have to choose the most stereotypical way to look female, nor do you have to dress how you think women should dress. You just have to look, act, and present as female. If you don't want to wear a skirt or dress..DON'T! I wear a skirt maybe once a week if that. Any other time I am in jeans. No one I know wears skirts or dresses all the time and they're all accepted as women.

My only suggestion is to not try too hard to blend in or be accepted as a woman. Just...let it happen. I feel that if you try too hard then you'll just stand out that much more. You've got women wearing power suits, you've got women wearing mumu's and flip-flops. All you have to do is fit in somewhere between those two.

Quote from: Thundra on September 27, 2005, 10:14:24 PM

  And with little to no therapy to pay for, and saving all of their money that they would have blown on tons of clothing and make-up and whatnot they did not really want anyways, a continuous stream of peeps would be lining up at the surgeons with plenty of money to spare!

If therapy and RLT were not a requirement I can just see the headlines.

XTRA XTRA read all about it.

53rd doctor sued for malpractice by disgruntled man over sex change surgery.  Mr. XZY asserts that he was temperorarily delusional when he asked for surgery.  His lawyer is sueing on the gorunds that the Dr. should have asked for a reference.  After the other losing 52 cases of malpractice the AMA  has declared that sex reassignment surgery is not to be preformed upon penalty of censure by them, up to and including revocation of hospital priveliges.

I have no doubt if it was changed to upon demand there would be a ine up the next morning that rivaled the super bowl ticket line. 

Therapy and RLT is intended to weed out the wanna bes, deluded, fantasy players, stupid idiotic people that think getting a vagina is an instant ticket to being a woman.  You have better chances of winning the lottery.  How many broken homes, suicides, mental comitments do you think therapy and RLT have stopped?  If you can't get through therapy and RLT you sure as hell are not going to make it in the real world peeps.  There ain't nothing fun, glamorous or exciting about it.

All an open door policy would do is shut down the Dr's and deny those of us who truly needed it the means to get what we need.  If the Dr's were not put out of business then I would say go for it.  You are all big kids and could make up your own mind, but don't start crying to me about making a big mistake.  You bought in to this hand now play it out.

I agree with you Leigh. If it were not legally possible to sue over your own stupid mistake and regrets, then yeah, have at 'er. Unfortunately it would tie doctors and care providers up in lawsuits over that crap.

I really wish the law would require people to take responsibility for their own actions to a greater extent.

Dennis

Thank you all for you informative and thought provoking replies.

I think I have found the UK equivalent of the Canadian Clarke Institute, it seems to be the rather starkley named The Gender Recognition Panel (http://www.grp.gov.uk/), a UK Govt body.

Interestingly their site states "some applicants may be eligible to obtain a new birth certificate". I seem to remember reading somewhere on these forums that is something you are not entitled too in the US/Canada?

Leigh's comments....

QuoteTherapy and RLT is intended to weed out the wanna bes, deluded, fantasy players, stupid idiotic people that think getting a vagina is an instant ticket to being a woman.  You have better chances of winning the lottery.

Made me sit quietly for long time, hard words, but words that need to hard, and they certainly provided me with some contemplation material.

After a while I went back through my Mum's E-Bay stock and finally found something my size, a long dark green skirt.

I put it on, and wore it around the house for sometime, sat at my PC, did some tidying up, watched some TV.

It was a very enlightning and moving experience. I am glad to say that it didnt do anything at all for me sexually (ie it didnt turn me on, nor did I find it erotic), but I did feel this warm comfortable glow within, I was very happy, I felt very natural.

I would have liked to carry on wearing it, but I was frightened I might mark or damage it.

I have a Doctors appointment booked for next Tuesday in which I hope to get a 'referral' from him to see a counsellor.

I aim to finally finish my proper introduction post to you all today or tomorrow, and I have now decided that at that time I renaming 'Miss Placed' to a real female name.  :)

Quotewhy do transgender women HAVE to go through RLT and dress like a woman for a certain amount of time, before doctors will put them forward for HRT?

hmmm, no idea about Uk or whatever, but here in the USA it's not like that at all, in many cases, HRT preceeds RLT, often up untill development is quite evident.  The manner of dress isn't nearly as important as the commitment and identification.

HRT isn't a comfirmation of a solid belief that one is transsexual, rather it is most often used as a diagnostic tool to see if HRT improves or detracts from the desire to actually fully transition.

RLT is in no way a test of real womanhood in the beginning, as for most, thier male birth is all to evident, both physically and in mental attitude.  It is not until one is unconditionally recognized and treated as a genetic woman that one actually begins to learn and understand the full consiquences of what being a woman really is, totally aside from transsexual aspects.

Some may find at around this point that its not all the fun and glamor they thought it would be and miss the privialage they had and indeed expected as men, and may change thier minds about making the full trip.  This is the real purpose of RLT, to give one a chance to actually experience some of what they are getting into before making a final step that can't be reversed to the extend of what they gave up.  Kind of a try it before you buy it concept and considering the seriousness of whats involved, quite right and proper.

Some may feel they don't need to meet an RLT requirement, but even they could learn a lot about themselves and the world by going through it.

Terri

Oh Leigh,

You know that we are have to agree to dis-agree on this one.

My bent on this issue is, and always has been, that if it is strictly my money being spent, then no one, medical professional or not, should have the right to determine my or anyone else's course of action, regardless of the outcome.

If the medical insurance people are not going to pay for the treatment, than as far as I am concerned, the medical folx have no right to force anyone to even consult a therapist. caveat emptor.

They DO have the right to make a potential client sign a waiver against the outcome though.

If, as you put it, some guy rushed to get surgery, and later regretted it, I do not care.  As far as I am concerned, that is just one less penis in the world, and we are all better off for it.

Personally, I do not feel that the current SOC do anything to winnow out potential trouble spots from those queing up in line at the surgeon.  It has been my observation, that rather, the current SOC turn away and deny the youngest and most vulnerable candidates, and pushes thru those with the greatest income.

Which is ironic, because the system as it stands rewards those most capable of being financially successful at living in the male role, and punishes the youngest and least trained, and least successful at living in the male role.  But what the hey, no surprise there?  The system was set up by men, for men, and their exaggerated sense of female beauty.

I know that is not a popular viewpoint, but I have been around for a while, and I have seen damn near everything.

When I went in for my orchiectomy 3 yrs ago, the doctor ask me why I wasn't wearing a skirt to the interview. I told him that I do wear them every once in a while but like to wear jeans and a nice top. It was a very fem. top and the shoes, heels, to match. I told him I was off today and don't like to wear things like that unless I was going out. I also mentioned to him that in his office there wasn't one woman in there who had a skirt on or a dress, they all wore pants and some with the ugliest shoes you would ever see, but they were comfortable. I gave him my letters and he performed the surgery. Since then I have had full SRS and I'm very happy with it also. Everyone takes me for a female now. Even in my jeans and t's. You have to mow the lawn sometime and you wouldn't do it in heels and nylons. How about tennis shoes?
Sheila

Quote from: Thundra on September 28, 2005, 07:35:02 PM


My bent on this issue is, and always has been, that if it is strictly my money being spent, then no one, medical professional or not, should have the right to determine my or anyone else's course of action, regardless of the outcome.

In my post I said>>> You are all big kids and could make up your own mind, but don't start crying to me about making a big mistake.  You bought in to this hand now play it out.

Quote

If, as you put it, some guy rushed to get surgery, and later regretted it, I do not care.  As far as I am concerned, that is just one less penis in the world, and we are all better off for it.

One down and 3 billion to go.  ;D  My concern though is that with enough dysfunctional people getting surgery eventually there would be none available to those who actually need it.

QuoteIt has been my observation, that rather, the current SOC turn away and deny the youngest and most vulnerable candidates, and pushes thru those with the greatest income.

The ones that have nothing to lose by transition, they alreadty have what they reaped from male privelige.  Gave up nothing and gained the same.

I have no solution for the young peeps.  Without supporting paperwork what are their options for getting (equal?) rights in the workplace?  Its difficult enough for those who do have a skill set to remain on their job or find another.  I know some are lucky, several come to mind immediately.  I also know more than several who used transition as a disability to explain the inability to work or function in society..  There is a huge difference between living and functioning isn't there?

Do we disagree, not very much I think!

About the birth certificate issue:

In the UK, it has only been possible to amend your birth certificate since January 2005. The criteria are that you have to have been living as your new gender for at least two years. There may be other criteria. Britain was extremely resistant to this and had to be taken to an international human rights tribunal to be forced to do it. The reason for this resistance stems from the reasons for judgment in a 1935 (or thereabouts) case from the House of Lords called Corbett v. Corbett. Find it and read it if you ever want to be thoroughly depressed by ignorance. Nonetheless, the UK used it as an excuse not to allow birth certificate amendments up until they were forced to change. The case basically says you are whatever gender you are assigned at birth and you remain that gender regardless of subsequent circumstances.

In Canada, it is possible to change your birth certificate. The requirements vary province to province.

Some states in the US do not allow birth certificate changes. Most do. Again, the requirements vary state to state.

The situation in the UK means that there is a huge backlog of applicants who have been living as their new gender for 20+ years. Those of us who are fairly newly transitioned are a lower priority and are gonna have to wait. I'm hoping that by the time my 2 years has elapsed, the backlog will be reduced somewhat. Nonetheless, it's expensive and it's an application that has to be vetted by a board, so it's still not a particularly easy application to make.

Dennis

Every state allows a name change.  Currently two will not allow a gender marker change.

The only reason the UK is doing anything is due to pressure from the EU.

Oh yeah, I should've clarified. I was talking about changing gender on your birth certificate only, not names.

Dennis

I know that Ohio is one state that will NOT allow you to change the gender marker on your birth certificate.  They will change the birth name, but not the gender.  Mine says Sarah Louise R. MALE, ugh.

oh well.

Sarah

Idaho is the other state.

No state will allow a gender marker change without supporting documents from a surgeon stating that surgery has taken place.

Now, what can we do to get Idaho and Ohio to agree to changing the Gender marker "after surgery"?  I don't see any forward progress being made in this area.

I realize you don't show your birth certificate often, but it is frustrating not being able to change it.

Sarah

Quote from: Leigh on September 28, 2005, 11:07:32 PM

The ones that have nothing to lose by transition, they alreadty have what they reaped from male privelige.  Gave up nothing and gained the same.

This is the dumbest thing you've ever said.  How many people do you think this actually applies to and how many people do you think have "nothing to lose by transition"?  I don't care what your place in society is,  NO ONE goes through transition unscathed.  I know a number of people who despite great qualifications, lost plenty.  How many millionaires do you know of who've transitioned?  How many people do you know who survived the process intact?  Gave up nothing?  State ONE case you know of where a trans man or woman went through transition and gave up nothing. 

So you had it tough and you have a bad attitude, Leigh, so what?  Get over yourself.

Cailyn

Quote from: Cailyn on September 29, 2005, 07:46:53 PM
This is the dumbest thing you've ever said. How many people do you think this actually applies to and how many people do you think have "nothing to lose by transition"? I don't care what your place in society is, NO ONE goes through transition unscathed. I know a number of people who despite great qualifications, lost plenty. How many millionaires do you know of who've transitioned? How many people do you know who survived the process intact? Gave up nothing? State ONE case you know of where a trans man or woman went through transition and gave up nothing.

So you had it tough and you have a bad attitude, Leigh, so what? Get over yourself.

Cailyn

I didn't say how many now did I?

Keep the ole job, the house, all the boy toys, continue as always using what you gained living and working as a man.  You retain all the benefits accrued.  The debits are what?  A few snickers and a few less acquaintances, so what?  That happens to those who never transition.

Try starting all over again.  Attempt to do the same thing as a woman, competeing in the workplace for recodnition, acceptance and the rewards that joining the womans comminity brings.  There is a world of difference between bringing it with you and earning it!  That to me is transition.

I certainly have no problem with those who are sucessful enough to have the means ($$$$$) to finance their transition but please don't tell me how easy it was.  How easy it was to start transition just about the time they could collect their employee pension fund and have never worked a single day as a woman.

Bad attitude? Oh hell yea.  Especially when challenged.

Get over myself?  I much prefer to let the women I date and sleep with get over me.

Quote from: Leigh on September 29, 2005, 09:28:19 PM
I didn't say how many now did I?

Keep the ole job, the house, all the boy toys, continue as always using what you gained living and working as a man.  You retain all the benefits accrued.  The debits are what?  A few snickers and a few less acquaintances, so what?  That happens to those who never
transition.

You need to state a specific example, honey.  My knowledge is of professionals who were fired and denied positions and discriminated against because they were trans.  Their privilege ended so abruptly it was startling.  Not transitioning out of fear is one thing but transitioning in the face of such fundamental loss of job (and often house, wife, kids) requires great conviction and courage,  Fact is, you don't know anything about these people, the situations they face, and what transition does to their lives.  You are talking out of your anal shincter and making huge assumptions that are wrong.  A few transition without major upheaval in their lives but generally that is because they are very kind and compassionate people--people almost always respond welll to that--it has nothing to do with privilege.

A few snickers?  What planet are you on?  Try verbal threats and abuse or more often, being completely shut out. 

Quote from: Leigh on September 29, 2005, 09:28:19 PM

Try starting all over again.  Attempt to do the same thing as a woman, competeing in the workplace for recodnition, acceptance and the rewards that joining the womans comminity brings.  There is a world of difference between bringing it with you and earning it!  That to me is transition.

No, that's starting over like you said initially.  The problem with your statements are the gross generalizations you're making that all white guys are privileged and that all women are not.  Some women are born to privilege or gain it through hard work and some men are not--think short, fat, and balding for instance.  Some privilege iis predicated on appearance or age, not gender.  In reality, some white guys start out behind their attractive female counterparts.  The system still strongly favors men but determined women can now demand equality and usually get it.

Quote from: Leigh on September 29, 2005, 09:28:19 PM

I certainly have no problem with those who are sucessful enough to have the means ($$$$$) to finance their transition but please don't tell me how easy it was.  How easy it was to start transition just about the time they could collect their employee pension fund and have never worked a single day as a woman.

Don't you know the stats?  Most of us transition in our late 40s or early 50s well ahead of the pension fund.  A lot burn their pension fund to transition.  Do you have any idea what the job market looks like for middle-aged middle-class transsexuals?  What you don't know is that most professionals have to go through credentialing during the hiring process which outs them.  Big duh, Leigh, what do you think that looks like on a resume?  Thought so, you don't have any clue. 

Face it, this isn't your world you're talking about and you really don't know much about it. 

Cailyn

Cailyn

In july you wrote >> A year ago, I had no real plan to go full time, I didn't consider it an option.

So in one year you have become the fount of all knowledge?  Congratulations.

You are right!  The world of retained male privelige and power is something I have no knowlege of.

My knowlege of what has happened, and what does happen is first hand, not from reading and imaging what is real and what isn't.

You are maybe in transition a year?  I believe your last line applies to you!
Face it, this isn't your world you're talking about and you really don't know much about it.

I shall be subtle.

Quote from: Susan on May 22, 2005, 10:02:28 PM...

14. You may challenge the issue, but never the person..

...

Get the hint?

Quote from: Leigh on September 30, 2005, 09:12:45 AM
Cailyn

In july you wrote >> A year ago, I had no real plan to go full time, I didn't consider it an option.

So in one year you have become the fount of all knowledge?  Congratulations.

No one is the font of all knowledge though I have gone to great lengths to educate myself about trans issues and transition because I realized I had no choice but to go forward.  People discuss transition as a choice; it was never a choice for me so I've chosen to be well informed if nothing else.

Quote from: Leigh on September 30, 2005, 09:12:45 AM

You are right!  The world of retained male privelige and power is something I have no knowlege of.

Good.  That settled, stop dissing people because of whatever perceived advantage you think they have.  I do not come from a world of privilege--though I suspect you think I do--but I know people who have.  Transition wasn't easier for them, it wasn't a lark, and no one here  has the right to judge other transgender people based on some arbitrary concept like male privilege or socioeconomic standing.

Quote from: Leigh on September 30, 2005, 09:12:45 AM
My knowlege of what has happened, and what does happen is first hand, not from reading and imaging what is real and what isn't.

You are maybe in transition a year?  I believe your last line applies to you!
Face it, this isn't your world you're talking about and you really don't know much about it.

Uh, no, I've transitioned, Leigh.  The whole thing.  Full time everywhere.  My RLT is over in December and I have an appointment with Marci in January.  I'm living the life and so my knowledge is all first hand.  I'm a quick study.  My life is far from perfect but things are going okay, especially for a t-girl deep in GB country.  I also have connections across the community and facilitate two support groups.  I volunteer in the LGBT community.  I know what I'm talking about.

We all get there in our own ways.  If anyone makes an honest sincere meaningful transition, you ought to be applauding the fact that another one of us made it without killling themselves, without being killed, somehow keeping their sanity intact.  I apologize for any personal comments but I won't apologize for my anger at your dismissive attitude towards one part of our community.  It says you're a friend under your name; you don't sound like a friend.

Cailyn

I guess I am not sure where this thread is going.  It seems to be getting a little personal and close to being an attack.

I could always be wrong, but I thought we were supposed to share ideas and opinions without getting personal.

Sarah

Well said Sarah I'm with you.

Shelley

hmmmm, Retained Male Privialage.  Interesting subject in and of itself.  I've recently thought out just how much of that I have carried with me so long after I thought It was all gone.  Years later I am only beginning to earn privialage as a female, for myself, not that which I earned in male life which snuck into transitoin with me and me none the wiser I was carrying it around with me.

Yeah, I guess it does take a few or more years to get a real clue about things you know all about.  Thank you Leigh for keeping a focus on such things, The more I discover these things inside me and work them out, the happier I am in life and that much closer to truely being true to myself.  People like you make a lot of sense to myself and others to whom every day is a big step in life when you no longer own your home, have seen your income drop to less then half what it was and now not have much more money then it takes to keep a roof over and pay for the beans and the credit rating has been lost in the ozone, and the professional people who thought the world of you in past years don't want you in thier buildings anymore.  For those on the street I guess things simply look different then they do to those with security who have the $$$ and health  to just do what they want when they want, like FFS and SRS in the same year or so  rather then a dollar at a time  over a couple or more years. and wearing holes in your shoes before replacing them to save a few bucks, never going to movie theaters or having pizza or burgers, working two jobs for some etc. etc. etc.  and all the other little nicities of life just to be able to get there a little sooner. 

Nothing to complain about though, life can be tough sure, but you just have to scratch and claw to dig your way out instead of sitting in your overstuffed easy chair watching TV and Reading the latest new book on How To whatever.

Oh well, privialage or not, as long as you get what you wanted out of it right?  anywho, Thank you for being you and who you are Leigh, as for myself, I'll listen to anything you got time to say and consider myself outstandingly lucky to have heard it.  I know where you been and where you are and thats good enough for me above and beyond "other" opinions.

Terri

Quote from: Terri-Gene on October 01, 2005, 02:19:21 AM
  For those on the street I guess things simply look different then they do to those with security who have the $$$ and health  to just do what they want when they want, like FFS and SRS in the same year or so  rather then a dollar at a time  over a couple or more years. and wearing holes in your shoes before replacing them to save a few bucks, never going to movie theaters or having pizza or burgers, working two jobs for some etc. etc. etc.  and all the other little nicities of life just to be able to get there a little sooner. 

Interesting assumption here that the person with the $$$ came into life with said $$$.  Some people who have $$$ did not get there by privilege but by the very means you describe: going without, working two to three jobs, etc.  So perhaps those people you describe who can do what they want can do so because of considerable sacrifice before they transitioned.  Assumptions can be ugly things and this thread seems to be about the "haves" vs the "have-nots" in the trans community.  From the sounds of it, we all started in the same place (figuratively speaking).

Cailyn

QuoteInteresting assumption here that the person with the $$$ came into life with said $$$.  Some people who have $$$ did not get there by privilege but by the very means you describe:

Never said I had any problems with those who had done what they had to do to have the money before beginning transition.  More power to them, wish I had been able to develope and retain enough to get me by and see it all through.

Trouble is, like many others, I was relieved of more then enough money carrier potential when I simply could not work along those lines anymore and valued my sanity more then the money, then on a new scaled down job path, I came out in an area that wasn't exactly understanding of such things and found myself removed.  With the financial overhead I had, and an inability to find new work without identifying as male again, I went though all my savings, 401k, credit cards etc. until I went back to a very unlikely form of work.  Drywall, where they cared not what I looked like or behaved like, only my performance, which though I was by that time in my later 40's was still outstanding in an almost totally male occupation where around and usually before 35 the complaints would start about being to "old for this".

Drywallers generally work by necessity in teams, but I couldn't find anyone who would work with me because they didn't want to be associated with what I represented to them, so I took out the last of the money I had, bought a Panel Lift, or Three Toe Joe as they are commonly called to raise and hold sheets of drywall to the cieling so you can stand on a horse or climb a ladder to screw the sheets down and went to work with my new "partner" who could care less about me being "queer" and we made a living together, though it tended to cut, bruise, and callose me up as well as mess with my attitude.  I only did that for a little less then 3 years and with considerable help found and relocated to the job I have now, though I have to admitt to using a lot of male past and associations to obtain some of the information involved and assistance to get hired in the first place. Get my foot in the door so to speak, from there on, it was up to me.  It would have been so easy to simply change back to male identity and keep my nice coshy consultant job and just keep me inner self more private until I had the cash to get it all done quickly, but I found that once the decision was made, I couldn't pull back out, for any reason.

About the privialage?  As a male I found I was automatically accredited with having certain abilities which were not considered valid in females and as a female, I never would have attained the kind of trust and perceived compentcy I had achieved as male.  There are so very few females to be found in some of what I used to do, even at present.

Obtaining a job of responsibility at good wages in the first place as a woman, especially as a transsexual woman is hard enough in the first place, if not impossible given certain areas, and gaining recognition and respect in that job afterwards isn't a piece of cake either.  Doing so is the real RLT, when you are totally judged by what you are and can do on present status rather then anything you have done in a male capasity.   And there is a difference in transitions paid for by money aquired as male or with male mode pretentions as opposed to doing it with money aquired totally as female while having to legally cover up past life and establish new identity at less then the wages that could be earned with using male influence and at times impression or afilliation with the old male identity to ease through the rough parts.

And yes, it can easily come down to the "haves and have nots" when talking about taking a confirmable Full Time, no backsliding stand in life and having to find new work in a female identity and finance the transition as such as opposed to those who have built and aquired the means as male and when pressured, use male identification to obtain what they need and want.  It does kind of make for a very different mind set and greater sense of accomplishment for those who have had to make it from scratch as female rather then make it as a combination of male and female.

Having the money to transition on and a male built job or means of living before and during transition doesn't make one any less valid, it simply makes them different and not have the same view of life.  There are those who have to simply throw themselves into the fire without having any idea if they will actually be able to come out the other side or not and those who can start with full confidence in the knowledge that they will retain the comforts of life and will unquestionably, barring some extream catastrophy, obtain surgery.

If you haven't simply thrown yourself into the fire with no reasonable reason to have any security in the outcome, with only your own confidence in yourself and your conviction to let nothing stand in your way but time,  not knowing if you will be totally broken and trashed or achieve your goals, then you can have no idea of how some can feel about those who they perceive to have it easier because of male privialage influence, even if that Privialage was duly earned.

Wars fought by generals in the War Room are viewed in a slightly different context then the soldier in the field, sloshing through the mud and earning a few purple hearts on the way to the end, whatever that may be, though they both be soldiers.

Terri

Quote from: Terri-Gene on October 01, 2005, 11:46:27 AM
Doing so is the real RLT, when you are totally judged by what you are and can do on present status rather then anything you have done in a male capasity.   And there is a difference in transitions paid for by money aquired as male or with male mode pretentions as opposed to doing it with money aquired totally as female while having to legally cover up past life and establish new identity at less then the wages that could be earned with using male influence and at times impression or afilliation with the old male identity to ease through the rough parts.

No, that is YOUR RLT, mine is my real RLT, and so on for everyone.  Once out, I could not fall back on or use any male influence ease myself through the rough parts.  EVERYONE I dealt with knew the truth, that I was a transsexual woman, not a guy or even a former guy once the story was out.  My career is not male-dominated (in fact there are more women than men in graduate school in my field).  The sole requirement for entry is a GPA above a certain level.  The admissions process is color and gender blind.  Maybe some transwomen have used their former male backgrounds to ease them through transition.  So what?  More power to them.  There is no purity test in transition; we all hope to do it as painlessly as possible.  I personally know not one person who breezed through this and didn't pay substantial costs (emotional, physical, financial) in the process.  This working class hero thing you and Leigh have going may make you both feel more pure, or valid, or accomplished but you miss the point.  Why aren't you both applauding ANYONE who gets through this alive?

Quote from: Terri-Gene on October 01, 2005, 11:46:27 AM

And yes, it can easily come down to the "haves and have nots" when talking about taking a confirmable Full Time, no backsliding stand in life and having to find new work in a female identity and finance the transition as such as opposed to those who have built and aquired the means as male and when pressured, use male identification to obtain what they need and want.  It does kind of make for a very different mind set and greater sense of accomplishment for those who have had to make it from scratch as female rather then make it as a combination of male and female.

The first part is a meaningless assumption.  Not all men succeed through privilege.  In certain fields yes, in others no.  Some men and women (there are more and more women who now have access to privilege) succeed inspite of their circumstances.  And why assume these people automatically backslide under pressure?  What if they did?  What gives you the right to judge them?

Accomplishment is a subjective value.  I am certain my sense of accompishment equals yours even though we got there by entirely different paths.

Quote from: Terri-Gene on October 01, 2005, 11:46:27 AM
Having the money to transition on and a male built job or means of living before and during transition doesn't make one any less valid, it simply makes them different and not have the same view of life. 

On this much we can agree.  We are all shaped by our pasts and circumstances and that renders each of us as unique.  In an ideal world, we listen and learn from the experience of others.  We share what we know.  Will we ever fully understand each other or the world view we have?  No, but we can try.  I started into this thread when one person dismissed a certain group and their transitions as meaningless fluff, something about a few friends lost, a few snickers...

Cailyn

Cailyn, you seem to have become a very angry woman with a few bones to pick of your own since embarking on you own transition yourself.  Since you came out of the closet, you are very different then you were, it is highly evident in the way you posted then and the way you post now.

Yes, it does kind of change one doesn't it?. Anyway, I can't really understand why you are upset about male privialage views or as disturbed by leighs comments as you seem to be, and you reference myself also in allusion to many of my own posts, especially in the past.

You seem to realize that experiences are different for all and that those who come up hard will have a harder point of view, it is hard to avoid that relationship, but why so bitter about it?  As long as you are happy with yourself and your progress, what difference should it make to you how others view what transition is about other then to simply comment with your own views rather then take it so personal and make it so personal?

Ease up girl, you don't want to drive yourself nuts at the end of it.  And if it makes you feel any better, just remember that working class people have always had some resentful views of those more fortuneate, be it by luck or hard work themselves.  Its a natural thing, don't take any thing to heart that you don't feel applies to you.

You seem to focus on things you feel are personally derogitory and miss the general points being made,  repeat .... general points.

Terri

Wow! Just got threw reading the last five posts. First I'd like to compliment both of you Cailyn And Teri for some very thought provoking opinions. I never really thought about the level of male priviledge I might be carrying around as extra baggage. I have been so intent on making my new life as the woman I've always been I never considered the male influence that might still be hanging around my neck.

Cailyn, You provide another valuable aspect to this thread. The different perspective from someone in a professional position were being Trans or not isn't as great a factor, but it is still a factor and certainly shares some aspects with working class Trans, but not nearly to the extent that working class has to put up with. So there you have it. It's the people you have to put up with and in the working class they are not so quick to accept. They may give some lip service but still Teri could not get a work partner. Reality is reality and yes everyones is different. I do not doubt that the same level of I really don't want to work with that person exists in the professional world as in the "working class" but in the professional world they don't have much of a choice. In the working class world it is very much possible to say "Oh I don't have a problem with so and so but I'm not working with that freak.

Another factor is that in the professional world it is much harder to find someone who really knows what they are doing and so the willingness to accept is greater. In the working class world, well, you can always find another painter or drywaller or trash collector. I do believe that for the working class Trans it is a much tougher roe to hoe. I am not saying however that it is easy for the professional.

Both views are valid and I don't think we need to devolve into personal confrontations about my transition is harder than yours. It is difficult for all of us just in varying degrees. Cudos to those who have an easier time for whatever reason. I'm happy for them. I'd be happier if I were there already but I'm not and the struggle and the sacrifices continue.

Just my two cents,

Cassie

I think that this thread has lost it's meaning.  Now it's all about the class system, which is better, who has the harder time, who has the easiest time, who is privileged, who is not, and so on.  It's odd that no one has mentioned the "poor".

To reduce trans issues to one of class and male privtlege is redundant, for who really cares.  Yes those with money can always afford what ever, but everyone faces the same emotional issues, and we deal with those in our own ways, with or without privilege.  Yes there are those who have had a rough time, and those who have had an easy time, but no matter whether you are lower, middle, upper class, or white collar, or blue collar, red neck, royalty or serfs, rich and famous, poor and downtrodden, we are all trans.  And no matter what,  if you are not mentally able to face the issues encountered along the journey then we all face the equal opportunity of failure, misery, and heart ache.  The loss of a loved one, or close friend, because you are trans will effect everyone to one degree or another, no matter who you are, or your personal situation.  Some are able to deal with that some are not.

Even after transition, we will still face the same class, male prevelidge structure etc..., whether MtF or FtM, I just hope I get though my transition in one piece, and be able to live the remainder of my life the way it was meant to be.

Just my thoughts,

Steph.

... and that I think is a fitting end to this thread.