Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Kia Ora Guys,

::) Just thought I'd start a similar topic here...So you don't feel that you have missed out  ;)

::) I have some lesbian friends who dress, look and behave very masculine, but they have no wish to 'become' men...Why do you think they do this? What makes them tick? Does gender identity/expression play a part ?

I'm under the impression there are similarities with the effeminate gay and the M2F, but for the most part it would seem to be quite a common thing to dress and behave 'manly' for many in the lesbian community...

Metta Zenda :)

Lesbians  foreign concepts to me.

I won't be replying in this thread...except I just did!!!!

IDK why are there some FTMs who act, dress and look very femme?  Why do some cis men act similarly?  Why are there some MTFs who look, act, and dress very masculine? 

Personal preference is why I think it is.  That is how they act naturally, that is how they wish to dress and look.  I don't think gender identity plays a part at all.

I'm not super-familiar with the lesbian community, but I have lots and lots of experience with trying to force myself to be a woman and make peace with the way the world treats women.

I'm not sure why some women deviate from the script (any more than I know why some men do), but I remember the struggle I had and still have with understanding what the rules are. There's some kind of unspoken thing about how to act female or male, and a lot of lesbians either instinctively don't fit the mold, or consciously reject it. Same for guys.

That didn't come out near as coherent or insightful as I thought it might. xD
Well. I'm a gay dude who got labeled a lesbian no matter how many times I failed to be attracted to girls, and I can only imagine the frustration of a real woman who is expected to act "womanly" and doesn't want to or disagrees with the definition.

Humans are really fascinating creatures.

I think it's simple as the whole gender identity=/=gender expression. The terms aren't synonymous and I believe we all have "masculine" and "feminine" traits. Everyone chooses to express themselves differently and if someone is doing that in a way that doesn't effect the liberties of another then it's fine. I figure it's just a preference and assuming things is ridiculous. It happens all the time and not just with trans issues. Correlation isn't causation and being a snoop is just weird.

>WHY U HAVE MOHAWK, U WANT TO FEEL BADASS THE 70S ARE OVER LOL.
>I actually like the aesthetic appeal and enjoy the hairstyle, and it suits my current needs.

QuoteWhy do some lesbians act[and dress] like F2Ms

Males (transsexual or not) and butch lesbians share the common property of wearing male clothes. They're not dressing/acting like or emulating eachother.

They do it because it comes naturally to them and feels comfortable; the same reason everyone dresses the way they do.

Another thing. A trans male at the beginning of transition may appear similar to a butch lesbian, but the difference is the lesbian feels that is an accurate portrayal of herself. The male in most cases hates his androgynous/feminine qualities and changes them therefore. Back when I looked like a butch lesbian, I was suicidal because of it; it wasn't me. A lesbian, however, would be completely comfortable and does not experience dysphoria.

I knew some 'lesbian(s)' that insisted on STP, and binding --- now to this looks like a trans-man in denial? 'cause as for partners both lesbian & trans-men would insist on female ONLY, yes?

Axelle

I think that fashion and gender identity are completely different. If a woman dresses in boyish clothes it's a fashion statement, not a gender statement. Someone may prefer the look, but not the body.

Quote from: Axélle on November 07, 2011, 11:53:28 PM
I knew some 'lesbian(s)' that insisted on STP, and binding --- now to this looks like a trans-man in denial? 'cause as for partners both lesbian & trans-men would insist on female ONLY, yes?

Axelle

A gender non-conforming woman does not automatically equal a trans man in denial.

Some butch women feel that using STPs and binding makes them feel more comfortable with themselves. They have a gender identity of woman and trans men obviously have a gender identity of man. Some enjoy playing with gender expression and gender boundaries, and may use STPs and packers and such, and others may not enjoy doing that. Some wear their hair short because it's more practical, others do it because it looks good. And so on and so forth. All butch women are different, sorry for painting people with a broad brush here. I hope you get my point, at least.

Kia Ora Guys,

::) Thanks for your responses so far...I realise it can be quite hard for some pre-transition F2Ms when being lumped in with lesbians by society...I guess that's another thing some M2Fs and  F2Ms have in common-being 'mis-identified'...

Metta Zenda :)

Because they are in touch with their masculine side.

Quote from: Sharky on November 08, 2011, 12:10:48 AM
Because they are in touch with their masculine side.

Kia Ora Sharky,

::) Good answer +1

Metta Zenda :)

QuoteThe male in most cases hates his androgynous/feminine qualities and changes them therefore.

I love my androgynous and feminine qualities. They are a major and authentic part of who I am. I love being rough and strong and practical, but I also love silliness and empathy, and feathers and rainbows. I love machinery, and androgyny to me is both a beautiful distillation of what it is to be human, and an approximation of science fiction androids and all manner of other cool humanoids. We are fantastic animals, and I struggle always with how to balance my need to pass with my appreciation of our non-masculine aspects.

I recognize, Gifted, that you did say "in most cases." I still had to answer. It's fun to answer.

It seems like men's clothing tends to be more comfortable, cheaper, and more versatile than women's clothing.  I can see why women who identify with a group that doesn't push as much of the "be a perfectly feminine woman or nobody will love you" image would choose to dress that way.  It's definitely not just lesbians though.  I have several (straight, cis) friends who prefer men's clothing, think makeup is ridiculous, and like the ease of short hair.

You say that butches behave masculine but they are not disphoryc at all and trans men are and both wear male because they like it but I am afraid is not that simple.
I believe our brain can be more or less masculine. We all know homosexuals often have traits of the opposite gender and all that things are determined by hormones before birth. It's testosterone what makes a woman be lesbian and behave masculine, so I think there's nothing bad in considering being lesbian a masculine trait. Same for gays. That hormones usually make more changes in their brains, so I believe that gender really is a spectrum with all degrees of gray. Sometimes for people that's closer to the middle, life can be really hard. There are people identified as bigender that are always doomed to disphorya no matter what they do. Some spend some time presenting as male and some as female, some present androgynous.
The term "genderqueer" is often used for people that consider themselves androgynous, but it's not so easy as saying: "they are happy being in the middle and that's how they are" No, it can be harder than that. Some of them never feel 100% satisfied with their bodies but they don't feel trans enough to take hormones.
And there are people that find hard to determine their our gender. I follow a youtuber, born female that's having a lot of doubts about being FTM. She is very masculine, as an average man, and she is lesbian. She envies flat chest and have binded. She feels disphorya towards her body but doesn't know if she is trans enough or not. Currently she has identified as a butch but she is not sure.
Some genderqueers and bigenders take hormones to get an androgynous body. Some transition because they feel their identity is closer to the other gender and don't want to be in the middle.
I myself am having doubts, that's why I know some things about this subject. If any of you is interested I can tell you about my own experience and feelings.

Ehr...there is no one way to dress or present as a trans man so I don't see a connection. People wear the clothes they want to wear. Some trans men (dare I say it) wear dresses and make up. There is no real point besides that person wanting to dress and present themselves as they like.

Gender identity and gender expression are two different things. It is possible to identify as one gender, and to have a preference for expressing as another gender, or any place in between.

Z

Quote from: beyondlabels on November 08, 2011, 02:25:16 AM
We all know homosexuals often have traits of the opposite gender and all that things are determined by hormones before birth. It's testosterone what makes a woman be lesbian and behave masculine, so I think there's nothing bad in considering being lesbian a masculine trait.

LOL no.  Where are you getting this info? How do you account for all the very femme lesbians if being lesbian is a masculine trait?  Testosterone is not what makes women be lesbians. 

I've just seen lesbian "studs" who act and dress like FTM's. And they get upset when you refer to them as FTM and vice-versa I suppose.

The ones that leave me scratching my head and serriously intriqued are the straight butch women.

I knew some 'lesbian(s)' that insisted on STP, and binding ---  Axelle

I agee, if they are going as far as using STP's and binding, they are acting like transmen.

Quote from: cynthialee on November 08, 2011, 10:05:01 AM
The ones that leave me scratching my head and serriously intriqued are the straight butch women.

'cause gender expression and sexual orientation are totes linked.

Quote from: Jayr on November 08, 2011, 11:32:49 AM
I hate threads like these.
Why can't everyone just act like they want without being questioned.
Theirs no one way to act gay, lesbian, like a man or a woman.
Just do whatever the hell you want.

And I agree with Nygeel.

This this this.

Kia Ora,

  Why can't everyone just act like they want without being questioned ?

::) Why do you think that is ?

Metta Zenda :)

I think the whole 'wearing male clothes' thing transcends lesbians, and could go for pretty much anyone. Why does anyone wear any type of clothes? There's a myriad of answers anyone could give.

the answer here is the same as I answered in the Mtf one,
because we are all diffrence, only thing I see as diffrence is the steryotypes we have,
for lesbians it often more okay to be maculine, and for straight guys as well, where on the other hands its kinda accepted to be gay, and femenine where if your straight its harder, but it has really nothing to do with gender or sexualety.

I honestly turn alittle tired of those topic, for me it seams alittle ignorant, and sorry to say it but I somehow feel its not needed,
and just made because the Mtf got these topics.

my opinion is pretty much the same as jayr

Quote from: Andy8715 on November 08, 2011, 09:40:18 AM
LOL no.  Where are you getting this info? How do you account for all the very femme lesbians if being lesbian is a masculine trait?  Testosterone is not what makes women be lesbians.

There are some parts of the brain that are different size in people attracted to women and people attracted to man and that brain areas respond to sexual hormones in the womb. I think I even studied that in university.

http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/readings/homofinger/homo_finger.html (http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/readings/homofinger/homo_finger.html)

I'ts even in wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation)

If you don't believe this is true. What is your theory? What makes woman be lesbians?
My answer to your question: Very femme lesbians are not so masculine as butch lesbians. As simple as that. On one hand testosterone might affect more directly some part of the brain and not others (I guess), and on the other hand there are also environmental influences. If you are biologically determined to have a male identity or to be attracted to women in a very strong way, there will be no way to change that, but more ambiguous people can be more easily influenced by experience. At least that makes sense to me.

These are my assumptions but I believe in tha scientific research that says that sexual hormones determine sexual orientation, masculine or femenine behaviour and gender identity.

beyondlabels, i really hope you're using sarcasm when you say "its even in wikipedia"  ;)

Quote from: Jayr on November 08, 2011, 11:32:49 AM
I hate threads like these.
Why can't everyone just act like they want without being questioned.
Theirs no one way to act gay, lesbian, like a man or a woman.
Just do whatever the hell you want.

And I agree with Nygeel.

Of course you can do whatever you want, but that doesn't change the fact that's has to do with sexual hormones before birth, and due to that fact we can describe some behaviours as TIPICALLY male as they are associated with testosterone in the womb.
The fact that some things have an explanation is not against personal freedom. It doesn't even limit the spectrum of human gender of sexual orientation. In fact I think it explains the variety that we see and makes it more rightful to the eyes of most conservative people. You know time ago homosexuality was treated as a mental illnes and psychollogist tried to cure it. Now that the medical comunity thinks is biologically determined in our brian and we can't change it is much more widely respected.

Quote from: Sam- on November 08, 2011, 09:02:37 PM
beyondlabels, i really hope you're using sarcasm when you say "its even in wikipedia"  ;)

Why? Wikipedia says:

"Fetal hormones may be seen as the primary determiner of adult sexual orientation, or a co-factor with genes and/or environmental and social conditions."
"In a 1991 study, Simon LeVay demonstrated that a tiny clump of neurons of the anterior hypothalamus—which is believed to control sexual behavior and linked to prenatal hormones—was on average more than twice the size in heterosexual men when contrasted to homosexual men."
"Girls with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (an autosomal recessive condition which results in high androgen levels during fetal development) have more masculinized sex role identities and are more likely to have a homosexual sexual orientation as adults than controls"

I am really sorry If I am bothering someone or If I am wrong. Everyone can be wrong. But I was told all this long time ago in university and I have always believed it's true. I don't think we should consider science as a religion. Science is always changing to theories that explain reality better, so If there's another theory I really be greatful that you share it with me.

Quote from: Andy8715 on November 08, 2011, 09:40:18 AM
LOL no.  Where are you getting this info? How do you account for all the very femme lesbians if being lesbian is a masculine trait?  Testosterone is not what makes women be lesbians.

Yeah, I have to agree with Andy here.
Most of my friends who are lesbians are actually more on the femme side, too :laugh:

I said the Wikipedia thing because it is a peer edited site and thus should in no way be used as an educational/scientific resource, you should see some of the things people write into that site, it's hilarious. Don't worry I'm just poking fun, not looking to fight or anything.

Quote from: Sam- on November 09, 2011, 09:45:22 AM
I said the Wikipedia thing because it is a peer edited site and thus should in no way be used as an educational/scientific resource, you should see some of the things people write into that site, it's hilarious. Don't worry I'm just poking fun, not looking to fight or anything.

It's also cited. I don't see why you couldn't use it as a resource as long as you check the citations.

I don't think the Wikipedia comment was even directed at this certain post, but it was just to state that you shouldn't believe everything that's on it.

And about the topic.. I'm with Jayr

oh! of course, I agree wikipedia is not the most reliable site in the world. I said "even in wikipedia" meaning that information is so popular that's even in a site that's not very scientific and specific about gender. But you are right.

Quote from: Sam- on November 09, 2011, 09:45:22 AM
I said the Wikipedia thing because it is a peer edited site and thus should in no way be used as an educational/scientific resource, you should see some of the things people write into that site, it's hilarious. Don't worry I'm just poking fun, not looking to fight or anything.

So hey, um, I don't want to stand up and defend wikipedia, really (I watch Colbert, I've been on 4chan, I'm not stupid), but peer review is the gold standard for most professions and areas of expertise. In my experience, wikipedia is more accurate and up to date than Encyclopedia Britannica. Most topics are policed pretty heavily.

Again, though, I don't want to put myself out there as championing the integrity of that source. Just defending the idea of a site that is "peer edited."

That's true, and I suppose all the things I knów to be true are on it.

But I'm still not allowed to use it as a source in a paper for school haha.

Why do I dress like a guy sometimes?

Because I'm queer!  And being queer means you get to do stuff like that, and people look at you funny, and you give them a smug smirk because you know you challenge their assumptions and make them uncomfortable.

A lot of people here have some excellent points.

Actually I have also been wondering about this question for a while. I have a few friends who identify as butch lesbians, having a lot of friends who are gay/lesbian/bi, their sexual orientation doesn't bother me one bit. But it does baffle me sometimes when butch girls insist on other people treating them as male. They get upset when e.g. at a wedding the photographer says "Let's have a photo with all the pretty girls together!", I observe this kind of awkward situation, but they seem to have no intention to transition or identify as ftm.

Maybe it has something to do with stereotypes,
I somethime hate when people put me into male groups because I am suposed too,
ex, "so your a man then watch soccer with us, you like that rigth (since your a man)"
Just because I am a gender dosent mean I nessesarry like to follow the rules, I am to lazy for it.
--

I am just happy those types of women don't hit on me any more as I am obviously a 'guy' which to them is akin to the anti christ....lol!!

Cuz female androgyny is better accepted in lesbian culture. Women have no problem with other women lookin like men. I know it took me a long time to admit I wanted to bone KD Lang. But I've come to terms with it.

Not so much in gay culture, where femmie guys are often ignored.

See the definition of irony.

I also want to bone kd lang. Sadly, I have no bone.  ;D

Though honestly yes lesbians are allowed so much more gender fluidity than gay men. That's pretty silly.

And I've spent a long time learning to be nice to lesbians, even though I've always had simmering confusion and unhappiness about being repeatedly pushed in their direction.

Quote from: Felix on November 10, 2011, 10:22:03 PM

Though honestly yes lesbians are allowed so much more gender fluidity than gay men. That's pretty silly.

No fats, no femmes hun.

Oddly when my ex was boning me, they all called me the "gay boy dyke" or something.

cisGay men are now ultra masculine, but still behave like spoiled divas.

I've noticed the elevation of "straight-acting" guys, and the devaluing of the more feminine ones. What the hell? I've gotten shunned or even called names when I'm passing as a femme gay guy a lot more than I have when people take me as a masculine dyke.

To be fair, it's mostly gay guys who shun me and straight guys who call me ->-bleeped-<-got. But still. Stupid double standard.

And I've noticed the whole phenomenon of being out of the club once you cease to be a gym bunny, or if you never were one.

Quote from: Felix on November 10, 2011, 10:56:28 PM
I've noticed the elevation of "straight-acting" guys, and the devaluing of the more feminine ones. What the hell? I've gotten shunned or even called names when I'm passing as a femme gay guy a lot more than I have when people take me as a masculine dyke.

To be fair, it's mostly gay guys who shun me and straight guys who call me ->-bleeped-<-got. But still. Stupid double standard.

And I've noticed the whole phenomenon of being out of the club once you cease to be a gym bunny, or if you never were one.

I dated gym bunnies. I don't know why...I think it was because I was a kink twink. Gay men love femininity, if it's subtle.

Most clone gay men are in the middle though.... not hairy enough to be bears, not hairless enough to be twinks, into weird fetishists like kinks, and into fitness.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 10, 2011, 11:00:04 PM
I dated gym bunnies. I don't know why...I think it was because I was a kink twink. Gay men love femininity, if it's subtle.

Most clone gay men are in the middle though.... not hairy enough to be bears, not hairless enough to be twinks, into weird fetishists like kinks, and into fitness.

I, um, should just admit right now that I can be pretty shallow and silly myself. I like kink, twinks, and healthy muscley people.

I do really try to give everyone a chance, though. I've enjoyed fat guys, ugly smart guys, dumb and ugly but fascinating guys, etc. I don't want to be mean.

Quote from: Felix on November 10, 2011, 11:16:27 PM
I, um, should just admit right now that I can be pretty shallow and silly myself. I like kink, twinks, and healthy muscley people.

I do really try to give everyone a chance, though. I've enjoyed fat guys, ugly smart guys, dumb and ugly but fascinating guys, etc. I don't want to be mean.

Straight boys are a new experience. Everyone is welcome assuming they aren't super ugly. transMen are cute, but not into ts's usually.

Straight boys are a whole other world from gay boys. There are more of them, for one thing, and they don't really have a "culture" to speak of.

Quote from: Felix on November 10, 2011, 11:39:16 PM
Straight boys are a whole other world from gay boys. There are more of them, for one thing, and they don't really have a "culture" to speak of.

Being a bro is a culture. Sometimes ya wanna get laid, sometimes ya don't. Straight men are the chillers of this world.

Every straight guy I've met has the same archetype... Easy going, relaxed, kind of an ->-bleeped-<-, etc.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 11, 2011, 12:00:25 AM
Being a bro is a culture. Sometimes ya wanna get laid, sometimes ya don't. Straight men are the chillers of this world.

Every straight guy I've met has the same archetype... Easy going, relaxed, kind of an ->-bleeped-<-, etc.

I agree with this more than I want to admit. The straight guy I currently sleep with is neurotic, anxious, not an ->-bleeped-<- at all...but he's not really all that straight, to be honest. He's kind of genderqueer, and intellectual enough to kind of turn sex into an abstraction. So he's not a good argument against the stereotype you just offered.

Quote from: Felix on November 11, 2011, 12:23:46 AM
I agree with this more than I want to admit. The straight guy I currently sleep with is neurotic, anxious, not an ->-bleeped-<- at all...but he's not really all that straight, to be honest. He's kind of genderqueer, and intellectual enough to kind of turn sex into an abstraction. So he's not a good argument against the stereotype you just offered.

I'm very mainstream. I tend to go for guys who wouldn't normally be into me...and so far I've been right!

Men persue me constantly... But it takes a special guy to get outside of what society calls "straight"

I tend to find a "masculine" woman (like a butch, or tomboy, or similar) more attractive than a femme one. I also frickin' LOVE girls with shaved heads, I think it is truly beautiful and often wish that more girls should shave their heads. It's not an usual sight, sadly. I can find femme girls visually appealing, in a "you're very pretty/your clothes look great" kind of way, but butchier women appeal to me in a "I'd like to date you" kind of way.