Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I wonder how many of you, FTMs, are ok with your female genitalia or at least not very dysphoric about it.

Um, the ->-bleeped-<-? That's kind of an inflammatory post title.

If you'd said it in spanish would it be maybe less crazy?

I don't hate my genitalia. I desperately wish for something better, something more accurate, but I love the hell out of what I've got. Humans don't live all that long, and we don't get a lot of say in our physical configuration. Making do is perfectly respectable.

I identify as male, thus my genitalia are male.

I'm not that bad about it, but if I could choose I'd rather not have it. And I do pack whenever I can because I need to feel and see my bulge down there.

Not really.  It's sort of out of sight, out of mind for me.  I tend to forget that it's there, so really what I'm lacking bothers me a lot more than what I have.

I don't consider it to be female... Just because it isn't the same as what cis-guys have doesn't make it any less male. I'm a guy, so that means my entire body is male, regardless of whether I'm pre-op, post-op, or non-op. 

I don't hate it, and couldn't care less about what kind of junk I have. I never pack because I just don't feel the need to. I don't plan on getting that surgery done, and probably wouldn't even if it was 100% guaranteed to end up exactly like a cis-guy's, with no complications or whatever.

Quote from: Felix on November 12, 2011, 02:33:43 AM
Um, the <not allowed>? That's kind of an inflammatory post title.

If you'd said it in spanish would it be maybe less crazy?

I don't hate my genitalia. I desperately wish for something better, something more accurate, but I love the hell out of what I've got. Humans don't live all that long, and we don't get a lot of say in our physical configuration. Making do is perfectly respectable.

Why is it inflamatory? I just want to know.  I don't think it can be any confusion in translating that title into spanish or english. It just means what it means.

I think in the sence of you calling it female while some guys don't see their genitalia to be female since they see themselves as a guy. I suppose some might be offended by it.

Quote from: Nygeel on November 12, 2011, 02:46:15 AM
I identify as male, thus my genitalia are male.

^This.
I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from labeling my junk for me.  :-\

people here get so butt hurt over things that don't really matter at all, it's a wonder they can actually survive in life being the drama queens they are
and I don't particularly care about them, not getting surgery because what they can do now just makes it looked messed up

+ 1

spoke her truth... non PC like

Axelle

No.

I hate having parts that are typically attached to a female.

I don't see what the big deal with the title is. This is the female to male area. I don't see how having a male identity makes you physically male.  Mental and physical gender are two different things. If they were the same then how could anyone be trans?

Seems you hit the nail on the head Sharky :-)
Whether one dislikes or even hates one's 'parts' will per se not change reality -  as much as at least one poster over here would like to have it.

Of course it does keep the 'wolf from the door' of all these nasty non- and pre- vs post-op MtF posts,  when every one over here (FtM) thinks they all the same pre- non- or post-op. All male genitals, easy peacy, no?

Looking at it this way this fantasy does have it's merits though, - short of creating ones own private reality, but on step away from needing some serious help.

Axelle

I used to hate it with a burning passion that paralleled the fire of a thousand suns.

Then I started using home made STPs, packing, and other methods of masturbation. Now it only bothers me when I'm on that special time of month, or when I'm in the shower.

If I did have balls down there, I think I'd probably be infertile by now because of all the horseback riding incidents and falls I've had that ave targeted that region. lol

But I don't plan on getting Bottom surgery because the end result isn't something that would help me feel more comfortable in my body.

Quote from: Sharky on November 12, 2011, 08:20:25 AM
I hate having parts that are typically attached to a female.

I don't see what the big deal with the title is. This is the female to male area. I don't see how having a male identity makes you physically male.  Mental and physical gender are two different things. If they were the same then how could anyone be trans?

This whole idea is really complicated for me to explain. When we're born doctors label us one way or the other based mostly by looks. It's not consensual, just as people saying that trans men are all really women are going the same. You should be the one defining your body.

On top of all that...if trans men are considered female, and having female parts then when are we male enough?

Nope. As someone else said, out of sight out of mind. I don't pay my nether regions any attention. This might change when I become sexually active one day, maybe then my dysphoria will heighten, but we'll see. I mean I'd rather have been born with what society deems 'male genitals', but I'm also not too bothered by the fact that I ended up with this instead. It's just there and I can deal with it.

After a year and a half on T everything down there has changed dramatically.  It all seems masculine because I can see and feel myself get hard.  In fact sometimes I get hard for no reason at all and that' kind of annoying.  But in a good way of course but nothing like that ever happened before.

I have what looks like a cock head, small sure, but definitely similar.  I literally jerk it off instead of just rubbing for hours.  So it's all male for me.  Sure it's little but quite a few guys have miniature junk.  It's not ideal but it does it's job so I can't say that I'm not happy.  :)   

Quote from: Lee on November 12, 2011, 03:32:09 AM
Not really.  It's sort of out of sight, out of mind for me.  I tend to forget that it's there, so really what I'm lacking bothers me a lot more than what I have.

same.

I hate being reminded what I don't have over what I do; I assume that tends to go hand in hand though in some cases.
My chest honestly bothers me more though since it's more readily visible.
I tend to get envious when other male-identified people go shirtless in public - I am forced to realize that this something I can't do just yet.

Quote from: Nygeel on November 12, 2011, 09:06:33 AM
This whole idea is really complicated for me to explain. When we're born doctors label us one way or the other based mostly by looks. It's not consensual, just as people saying that trans men are all really women are going the same. You should be the one defining your body.

On top of all that...if trans men are considered female, and having female parts then when are we male enough?

Pretty much everything that happens to you as a baby is non consensual. You don't even consent to your conception, but we're all stuck here any way.  We may not like the card we were delt, but that doesn't change it. The people that say trans men are really women don't understand the difference between gender identity and physical gender. As much as i would love for it to be true, self definition will never physically change me. The reality I face is that I was assigned female at birth but unknown to everyone, was born with a male brain. The physical state of your parts doesn't determine your gender identity. When you feel male enough physically is a personal thing. I just don't get why it's becoming a PC thing to ignore the reality of our struggle. I also don't get why in a trans friendly environment you should be expected to deny what makes you trans in the first place.

well, I am sorry for the poeple that felt offended. It was not my intention. I know FTM are male, because the brain is what really matters in terms of defining people's identity, but our body is female, as sharky says, so I didn't see why people would feel offended. Anyway, I will try to be more careful chosing my expressions knowing some people don't like to hear that their body is female. I think that is respectable too.
Thank you very much everyone for your interesting unswers.

Quote from: Bradd on November 12, 2011, 08:39:51 AM
I used to hate it with a burning passion that paralleled the fire of a thousand suns.

Then I started using home made STPs, packing, and other methods of masturbation. Now it only bothers me when I'm on that special time of month, or when I'm in the shower.

I still don't know what STPs are. I have heard that word a few times so I guess it's somegthing pretty basic.... What are they? What do you mean with "another methods of masturbation". What methods are they?

Quote from: beyondlabels on November 12, 2011, 11:24:12 AM
well, I am sorry for the poeple that felt offended. It was not my intention. I know FTM are male, because the brain is what really matters in terms of defining people's identity, but our body is female, as sharky says, so I didn't see why people would feel offended. Anyway, I will try to be more careful chosing my expressions knowing some people don't like to hear that their body is female. I think that is respectable too.
Thank you very much everyone for your interesting unswers.
I still don't know what STPs are. I have heard that word a few times so I guess it's somegthing pretty basic.... What are they? What do you mean with "another methods of masturbation". What methods are they?

Are you FTM? If so, because you seem pretty isolated or uninformed, how old are you? I can link you to http://www.ftmguide.org/ (http://www.ftmguide.org/) which should provide you with pretty much all the answers you need though. :3

Quote from: beyondlabels on November 12, 2011, 11:24:12 AM
I still don't know what STPs are. I have heard that word a few times so I guess it's somegthing pretty basic.... What are they? What do you mean with "another methods of masturbation". What methods are they?

Well, STPs are devices that allow you to Stand To Pee (hence the acronym). Things like the peecock, the go girl or homemade ones. As for masturbation, there are some older threads touching on the subject. This place is a wealth of knowledge, and if you look at some older things you will find what you need to know sooner or later. There's also a lot of online resources to clue you in on this stuff.

Quote from: beyondlabels on November 12, 2011, 03:57:05 AM
Why is it inflamatory? I just want to know.  I don't think it can be any confusion in translating that title into spanish or english. It just means what it means.

Oh, right. I'm sorry for cussing there. I answered very knee-jerkily, didn't I?

Using "all," "hate," and "female" in such a short sentence when asking transgender people about genitalia is a little clumsy. What I said about spanish was not that I thought you lost anything in translation, but I know that back when I could speak spanish a little, I often said things that were kinda crazy blunt or oddly put without meaning to.

I am personally touchy about my feelings toward my genitalia, and I feel robbed but still try to love what I do have. I don't like the implication that disliking our wrong parts is somehow necessary for all transgender people.

I feel my genitalia is female and I don't care that it's there. At all. I don't use it for anything but to piss and the only time I'm irritated is when it's bloody but otherwise, by now, I can't say I care and it doesn't bother me, nor do I dislike it.

I honestly hate my curves, chest and high pitched voice much more than my lower areas. I would rather I didn't have what I do, but like a few others have said, life is short and I can't spend my whole life without ever taking my underwear off. The only time I really, really hate it is when Aunt Flow comes into town, or when I have to take antibiotics and I get infections. Other than that, I try to just enjoy life.

as I said in another thread,
I dont hate my V-Jay,
I just hate how my gender are to be decided by that.

I dont really have much dysphobic of it, its only when I am nervous on how other will react, but if people have no problem
and I have no problem, then theres no problem.

I wouldn't say I hate it so much. Just that I desperately wish for it to be something else. And I'm extremely uncomfortable with it every time I try and look at it.

Quote from: Kvall on November 12, 2011, 05:16:21 PM
Referring to the bolded part: And some of us are already there, obviously, so what's the point of the rest of your post? You kind of blew up your whole argument there. It's perfectly fine for you to see your body as female, but realize that is you gendering your own body; we are doing the exact same self-authoritative act of gendering our own bodies, and we simply are coming to different conclusions about them than you.

Nobody is saying, "I'm male, therefore my parts are exactly the same as cis male parts." Folks are saying that their parts, exactly as-is, are also male even though they are different from cis men's. That is the matter of self-definition at hand, not believing that saying "I have testicles now" somehow magically makes it so. We're not stupid.

It's not a matter of being too politically correct (that phrase, by the way, is completely pointless except to use to whine about other people's realities that don't make sense to you because you're too lazy or close-minded to think much about it) but of recognizing that it's possible for bodies, not just brains, to be gendered differently from birth assignment.
Ya'll really should get a sense of nuance. Someone can see their body as male but still be uncomfortable with their set up and wish they had a cis man's body. Someone can identify as trans because they have a male identity but not hate their genitalia even while seeing it as female. Hatred of one's genitalia is hardly what "makes you trans in the first place." It's a factor for some, but it is not exhaustive.

You articulated this better than I could have ever hoped to.  :)

I hate my lower parts. I hate it as much as I hate my chest.

Quote from: Kvall on November 12, 2011, 05:16:21 PM
Referring to the bolded part: And some of us are already there, obviously, so what's the point of the rest of your post? You kind of blew up your whole argument there. It's perfectly fine for you to see your body as female, but realize that is you gendering your own body; we are doing the exact same self-authoritative act of gendering our own bodies, and we simply are coming to different conclusions about them than you.

Nobody is saying, "I'm male, therefore my parts are exactly the same as cis male parts." Folks are saying that their parts, exactly as-is, are also male even though they are different from cis men's. That is the matter of self-definition at hand, not believing that saying "I have testicles now" somehow magically makes it so. We're not stupid.

It's not a matter of being too politically correct (that phrase, by the way, is completely pointless except to use to whine about other people's realities that don't make sense to you because you're too lazy or close-minded to think much about it) but of recognizing that it's possible for bodies, not just brains, to be gendered differently from birth assignment.
Ya'll really should get a sense of nuance. Someone can see their body as male but still be uncomfortable with their set up and wish they had a cis man's body. Someone can identify as trans because they have a male identity but not hate their genitalia even while seeing it as female. Hatred of one's genitalia is hardly what "makes you trans in the first place." It's a factor for some, but it is not exhaustive.

How does that blow it up? That sentence was in response to where Nygeel said "when are we male enough" I was saying there isn't a definite point since everyone has different surgeries. I wouldn't say that a guy with a phallo has a more male body then a guy with a meta. I also wouldn't say that a guy who is non op is less of a man. Feeling comfortable in a male identity with whatever parts you have/have left that are physically female is a personal thing. It's not me gendering my body, it's how the sex determination system for humans work. Chromosomes determine if the baby is going to develop a male or female body and their gender identity doesn't change the outcome of this. My body may belong to a male so it is a male's body, but it is physically female at this point in time and only male by association to my gender identity. I know nobody is saying that. I think the whole politically correct thing can go too far sometimes. Like lowering the standards of fitness for fire fighters so women can become one easier. I don't see how it's possible and I don't think I'm close minded.

QuoteSomeone can see their body as male but still be uncomfortable with their set up and wish they had a cis man's body

This is probably how I will feel no matter what surgery I have.

QuoteSomeone can identify as trans because they have a male identity but not hate their genitalia even while seeing it as female.

I understand that.

QuoteHatred of one's genitalia is hardly what "makes you trans in the first place." It's a factor for some, but it is not exhaustive.

I agree. I am not trans because I hate my junk. I am trans because I have a female body and a male brain.

Quote from: Caseyy on November 12, 2011, 06:26:24 PM
I just ignore it. I've never used "the hole" and I have no plans to. I'd prefer it to be gone, but it's a relatively invisible organ. I imagine MTFs (generally speaking) have greater issues with their genitals because they're external and very present.

I'm now wondering if that's why Scarlett posted that other thread..

But anyway.. I don't generally have much dysphoria in that area. It's just a useless cavern to me, did nothing pleasure-wise when it did get used, in fact it was pretty uncomfortable.. and then I wonder why I went along with it anyway and end up wishing it'd just get sealed already XP

My bigger problem isn't with the hole so much, though - it's the surrounding bits. I don't mind sitting to pee usually, but when on a night out and hoping the stalls are a) not all occupied, and b) have a lock on the door, or just *a door* would be nice, then yeah, it becomes a real problem. Haven't had much luck in the STP area either, have just bought a Urinall so we'll see how that goes.

I'm sort of ambivalent to my junk. I have a hard time touching myself unless I really try hard to pretend it's a dick, or I'm finger ->-bleeped-<-ing a girl. But thankfully my meds keep my sex drive low enough for my dysphoria not to bother me.

I see my clit as a small dick and my labia as a scrotum. And personally, I have no issue referring to the medical terminology of human anatomy. I don't see an issue with saying "female genitals" because there is really no other easy way to describe the subject without dancing round a bunch of terms that not everyone will get right away. Everything anyone says or does is going to offend someone else.

I agree with the perspective that as a male, my body is inherently male.  However, I regard myself as having a serious birth defect.  As for what makes me trans, I don't have any control over what the medical community and society have labeled my condition.  I'm a man with a birth defect that medicine likes to call transsexualism.  But for the record, I do hate my "wonky bits" and will be having bottom surgery.

Quote from: Z7Z on November 12, 2011, 03:33:24 AM
I don't consider it to be female... Just because it isn't the same as what cis-guys have doesn't make it any less male. I'm a guy, so that means my entire body is male, regardless of whether I'm pre-op, post-op, or non-op. 

I don't hate it, and couldn't care less about what kind of junk I have. I never pack because I just don't feel the need to. I don't plan on getting that surgery done, and probably wouldn't even if it was 100% guaranteed to end up exactly like a cis-guy's, with no complications or whatever.

+ 9,001

Why can't this sort of awesome happen in the trans women section?

Quote from: Kreuzfidel on November 12, 2011, 08:22:01 PM
I agree with the perspective that as a male, my body is inherently male.  However, I regard myself as having a serious birth defect.  As for what makes me trans, I don't have any control over what the medical community and society have labeled my condition.  I'm a man with a birth defect that medicine likes to call transsexualism.  But for the record, I do hate my "wonky bits" and will be having bottom surgery.

This is close to how I feel.

I could care less how people label me, because I can't control that.

However, like any other person I want to correct my birth defect as soon as possible.

Speaking some realism never seems to fails getting smited over here.

Must have been running low on those, - venturing over here.

So someone found "the shoe did fit", um.

Enjoy what ever,
Axelle

Hmm. Since we seem to be edging into scandal and drama, I'll just say that I love genitalia. Mine kinda suck because they give the wrong impression, but they suck less when people suck on them. We have what we have, right?

"Hate" is a strong word. I'm kind of grossed out by it (I'm gay. I shouldn't ever have to touch one of those things.) But I don't hate it...I can get off, and it provides a really easy convenient way to get my boyfriend off too, and it's just generally fairly harmless. I had a

If it weren't slimy, I'd be totally OK with the hole part, and my only problem with my dick is that it isn't bigger.

I don't mind my genitals because most people don't go looking inside my pants to see what's there. And they work fine. It's mostly my face, voice, chest, height, hips that bother me more than anything since everyone can clock me right away.

Quote from: Axélle on November 12, 2011, 08:31:26 AMOf course it does keep the 'wolf from the door' of all these nasty non- and pre- vs post-op MtF posts,  when every one over here (FtM) thinks they all the same pre- non- or post-op. All male genitals, easy peacy, no?

I think you've misunderstood the arguments here. All male bodies are not the same, and I don't think anyone in this thread has made that claim.

I do not think I misunderstood the point made that a female genital AFAB is actually a male genital AMAB, so long you just tell that to be your reality. Hello?!

Never the less, misunderstanding or not - it is not a done thing to change one's post (as was done just earlier) make it sound obnoxious --- and then re-post it under my name...
That's yet a new one for me, and it is the height of arrogance, if I might say so.

Thank you,
Axelle

The FTM boards are usually pretty peaceful when it comes to differing opinions about SRS. Some guys want it and some don't, and we usually manage to accept that what's right for one guy isn't necessarily right for everyone else. I want to keep it that way.

Most of us are aware of the vicious battles that have recently been fought in the MTF forums over SRS and what constitutes a "real" woman. I am NOT pleased that someone has seen fit to transplant some of that war into the FTM forums, and I have no problems putting a stop to it. I have no desire to stifle discussion, even when it gets a bit heated. But TOS violations are a different story.

And now back to the discussion...

Quote from: Arch on November 13, 2011, 12:39:01 AM
The FTM boards are usually pretty peaceful when it comes to differing opinions about SRS. Some guys want it and some don't, and we usually manage to accept that what's right for one guy isn't necessarily right for everyone else. I want to keep it that way.

Most of us are aware of the vicious battles that have recently been fought in the MTF forums over SRS and what constitutes a "real" woman. I am NOT pleased that someone has seen fit to transplant some of that war into the FTM forums, and I have no problems putting a stop to it. I have no desire to stifle discussion, even when it gets a bit heated. But TOS violations are a different story.

And now back to the discussion...

AMEN.

There maybe some arguments for sure on the MtF line - but about "real" women??

Would you point out where that was posted?
I NEVER saw any of that EVER, unless you are interpreting...

I was post-op too not to long ago, and would not have had the desire or need to call "a spade a shovel"...

Yet, as always YMMV

Amen

I don't like my biol  organs. I can't do anything about it either because I'm unable to afford top surgery and the technology for bottom surgery does not fit to my standards.

Quote from: Axélle on November 13, 2011, 12:35:36 AM
I do not think I misunderstood the point made that a female genital AFAB is actually a male genital AMAB, so long you just tell that to be your reality. Hello?!

What the heck is AFAB and AMAB. Jeez I'm already confused enough with every time a new label comes out to "define" someone's sexuality and all the different abbreviated lingo everyone uses (I'm still back at trying to determine just what CIS gender actually means ... I should probably just break down and google it).

Anyway ...

It seems like there's the scientific, white-coat definition of, "female genitalia" and then there's everyone's own individual and personal definitions for parts of their bodies. I'd call that two different things. I think the OP was trying to be all scientific with the terminology and just ended up stepping in a tiger trap with it because of everyone's individualized thoughts about what they got.

As for what I got, I've grown to accept it (because it's not going to change and that's reality) but that doesn't mean that I never wished it was different. It would be nice to have a couple more inches in the dick department and a functioning set of balls instead of some atrophied, pretty non-functional internal female bits. I wouldn't say I hate what I have now. I can get off just fine and that's a happy thing   ;)

Oh dear - we ARE talking the FtM talk here.

I got flamed not knowing about it all - so let's recap:
AFAB = assigned female at birth and
AMAB = assigned male at birth.
CIS = non-trans (simply to keep it short, hum)

See, not that difficult... :-)
Yep, but you're right - labels for threads - as in 'horses for courses', hum.

Axelle

Thanks for straightening all that out for me Axélle ;)

It's my pleasure insideontheoutside,

and as far as the OP goes...
NO I DON'T hate my female NAFAB*) genitalia, - just to make sure.

Doesn't come as a surprise I guess.

see ya dudes :-)
Axelle

*) NAFAB = non-assigned female at birth

Quote from: JasonRX on November 12, 2011, 11:29:39 AM
Are you FTM? If so, because you seem pretty isolated or uninformed, how old are you? I can link you to http://www.ftmguide.org/ (http://www.ftmguide.org/) which should provide you with pretty much all the answers you need though. :3

Yes, I am FTM because I don't have a female identity, you can read it under my avatar. I have always felt like a man. Why am i so isolated and uniformed? Well, I guess everybody is uninformed until they get informed and I am in that stage right now. I have just turned 30 and I've been lying myself and trying to convince myself I had to like my body for many years. Why so much time? I got confused basically because I am gay and that made me think I had to be a woman. Well, I am bisexual, actually, but I am mostly attracted to men. Then I realized that wasn't a good reason to think I was not FTM and I've been gathering information about FTMs for a few months, and with time I am becoming more sure that I want to transition. At first I had more doubts and I still have a few. I have talked about my doubts in the thread "starting to doubt I am trans" that Nick started. You can read it if you are curious, but the main reason is that I don't have a real issue with the genitalia that I was born with. I see myself well with male or female genitalia. That's why I started this thread, to know if others FTM feel like me. I have always hated my female body shape and appearance, breasts, and dressing like a girl.  I have alwyas wanted a deeper voice. And yes, "hate" is the right word for me, I hate it. I will be more careful chosing my expresions, though, as Kyril said, it's a strong word and putting that in the tittle was cumsy.
At first, crossing the line from being a masculine girl to be a boy, doing top surgery and removing a part of my body, was a bit scary, but I am little by little realizing that's what I have always wanted and there's no reason to be scared.

Quote from: Bradd on November 12, 2011, 11:57:48 AM
Well, STPs are devices that allow you to Stand To Pee (hence the acronym). Things like the peecock, the go girl or homemade ones. As for masturbation, there are some older threads touching on the subject. This place is a wealth of knowledge, and if you look at some older things you will find what you need to know sooner or later. There's also a lot of online resources to clue you in on this stuff.

Thank you very much Bradd.

Quote from: Ryno on November 12, 2011, 08:18:48 PM
I see my clit as a small dick and my labia as a scrotum.

That's exactly what I do!! The difference is that I also like to use "the hole" Being gay and liking penetrative sex in a passive way i find in it a way to do it without the initial discomfort of the... "other hole"

Quote from: Lee on November 12, 2011, 03:32:09 AM
Not really.  It's sort of out of sight, out of mind for me.  I tend to forget that it's there, so really what I'm lacking bothers me a lot more than what I have.

This. Sometimes something will come up that will remind the dysphoria but I generally change the subject and stop thinking before I get more than a little upset.

I guess I feel differently than other trans guys. I PERSONALLY feel delusional calling my junk male genitalia. At the same time I don't think of it as normal female genitalia either since it is like 2" long. As for the hole, I forget it is there because I never use it and I don't get my periods anymore.

Seriously, the guy posting obviously just came out and needs to figure out himself more. It is a valid question to ask since when I first came out I almost didn't think I was trans because I didn't hate every single part of me and didn't struggle as much as I thought I should have based on other FTMs. Of course the op will be more uneducated and not informed but how can he start when everyone is bitching at him?

For me, it is not hate so much as disgust and shame. The thought of being seen is horrid because it just isn't right. The panic attacks have been relieved due to packing but the slime part just will not go away. I'm way too poor to be able to fix that. It bothers me more than my chest does and that bothers me plenty.

Do I hate my current genital configuration?  No.  Would I rather it be different?  Yes.  But I've reached a point where I'm really okay with it, for the most part.  I'm not ruling out the possibility of surgery in the future, but for now I'm just accepting it like it is and trying to make the best of it.

Quote from: Da Monkey on November 13, 2011, 12:15:18 PM
I guess I feel differently than other trans guys. I PERSONALLY feel delusional calling my junk male genitalia. At the same time I don't think of it as normal female genitalia either since it is like 2" long. As for the hole, I forget it is there because I never use it and I don't get my periods anymore.

Seriously, the guy posting obviously just came out and needs to figure out himself more. It is a valid question to ask since when I first came out I almost didn't think I was trans because I didn't hate every single part of me and didn't struggle as much as I thought I should have based on other FTMs. Of course the op will be more uneducated and not informed but how can he start when everyone is bitching at him?

thank you very much Da Monkey.

Quote from: Kvall on November 12, 2011, 10:00:01 PM
It's how the sex determination system for cissexuals works, but that doesn't mean you can extrapolate it as applying to transsexuals. Why should I describe my body with a system that was never meant to account for it?
My definition of a trans person is someone who was assigned the wrong gender/sex at birth (or in some cases during early childhood).

The sex determination system is what assigns someone male or female at birth. Why would there be a different system for transsexuals and cissexuals? Newborns don't have a gender identity, so they can't be cis or trans. What you are assigned at birth is based on your genitalia not your gender identity. Unless you are intersexed this is going to be female or male, regardless if this label matches your future gender identity.

In a case of an FTM what is assigned isn't wrong because it turns out you don't really have female genitalia, it's wrong because you don't have a female gender identity.

Quote from: Sharky on November 13, 2011, 07:17:30 PM
The sex determination system is what assigns someone male or female at birth. Why would there be a different system for transsexuals and cissexuals? Newborns don't have a gender identity, so they can't be cis or trans. What you are assigned at birth is based on your genitalia not your gender identity. Unless you are intersexed this is going to be female or male, regardless if this label matches your future gender identity.

If you're intersex it's still M or F. And unfortunately for a lot of intersex people doctors still decide (or force the parents to decide) which one it is mostly through invasive surgery.

@Kvall
wow my good man you need to learn to loosen up. I sure see the sign of too much T.

@Da Monkey
thank you for adding some reality to these proceedings. Thanks too for the mature response.

Life's a guess - I guess.
Axelle
PS: not sure hugs are allowed in this T loaded environs, if so? Hug... and please don't crush me, only one at a time, eh :-)

Quote from: Sharky on November 13, 2011, 07:17:30 PM
The sex determination system is what assigns someone male or female at birth. Why would there be a different system for transsexuals and cissexuals? Newborns don't have a gender identity, so they can't be cis or trans. What you are assigned at birth is based on your genitalia not your gender identity. Unless you are intersexed this is going to be female or male, regardless if this label matches your future gender identity.

In a case of an FTM what is assigned isn't wrong because it turns out you don't really have female genitalia, it's wrong because you don't have a female gender identity.

I think that Kvall is trying to say that the sex determination system that's currently in place works for cissexual people...it works in their favor.

Welcome to the world - >99% are cis, so what to expect?!

Axelle

Quote from: Nygeel on November 13, 2011, 10:42:30 PM
I think that Kvall is trying to say that the sex determination system that's currently in place works for cissexual people...it works in their favor.

If something works in your favor, it means you benefit from it, right? How does the sex determination system benefit cis people? Do you mean cis people have the benefit of their assigned sex matching their identity?

Like Axelle said. Most of the population is cis so i wouldn't expect the system to bother them.

Quote from: Sharky on November 13, 2011, 11:22:28 PM
If something works in your favor, it means you benefit from it, right? How does the sex determination system benefit cis people? Do you mean cis people have the benefit of their assigned sex matching their identity?

Like Axelle said. Most of the population is cis so i wouldn't expect the system to bother them.

The system probably bothers cis people who have close friends or relatives that they really care about who are trans. Cissexuals already have confirmed sex identities. They are told that they are who they are while we have to prove ourselves in various ways.

* They [cis] are told that they are who they are while we have to prove ourselves in various ways. *

Very true, the never ending challenge it seems - and it becomes quite burden.
Some folk have no arms, some no legs, life has it's vagaries...
Will we get used to ours? I daily hope so.

Axelle

For me personally, if its called anything other than a f***hole it bothers me a bit. Maybe that's just because I'm more comfortable being vulgar, but eh. I can deal with front hole too.

It bothers me sometimes, but since I primarily have sex with my boyfriend (or would like to) its not a big deal. It actually bothered me more when I was still screwing with my girlfriend a lot. Probably sounds kind of odd, but it makes sense to me.

Quote from: Nezhi on November 12, 2011, 06:33:51 AM
people here get so butt hurt over things that don't really matter at all, it's a wonder they can actually survive in life being the drama queens they are

I agree completely.

My genitalia is female genitalia, which is why I am a female to male transsexual.  I am not so far in denial that I think that my genitals are male, because they aren't male.

and to answer the OP question, sometimes I hate it sometimes I don't really care either way.  I don't hate it as much as I wish I had a penis and testicles.

I just want to reiterate that the problem that I had was with the carelessness of the question. For me personally, the word "hate" makes me touchy. I feel like not hating my genitalia has made me the odd man out sometimes.

"Hate" would be going a bit far for what I feel...it's more like, "wait, what? Why are things like this? How awkward." I do want to get surgery if I can ever afford it, but I can deal with what I've got for now.

And obviously different people will feel different ways...it's ridiculous for anyone to think every trans guy is going to feel exactly the same about everything ever.

It is nice to see that so many other guys share my feelings on it. It really is just more of a "huh? Well, that's odd..." sort of deal.

Quote from: AugustFalcon on November 14, 2011, 08:02:22 PM
"Hate" would be going a bit far for what I feel...it's more like, "wait, what? Why are things like this? How awkward." I do want to get surgery if I can ever afford it, but I can deal with what I've got for now.

And obviously different people will feel different ways...it's ridiculous for anyone to think every trans guy is going to feel exactly the same about everything ever.

Confusion and incorrectness, right. I still don't understand why this happened.

It feels so awkward to  have triggered 4 pages of discussion with a tittle!!!
I AM SORRY!!!!

Quote from: beyondlabels on November 15, 2011, 02:03:52 AM
It feels so awkward to  have triggered 4 pages of discussion with a tittle!!!
I AM SORRY!!!!

Ah hey man, talking is good and informative and even fun. I'd rather we got a little riled up than not discuss it in the first place. It's part of how we know how we all feel about stuff, where the boundaries are, how we define ourselves, what we want.

Don't feel bad.  :)

I hated my junk so much I got rid of it.  Well, except my penis.  I kept that part.  And had balls put into my scrotum.  My cis boyfriend said that if he didn't know different, he'd think I just had small junk.  I have a small dick, but it looks and works like a dick.  So yeah, maybe I'll be less willing to disclose in the future.

The internal crap that created the monthly death absolutely had to go, and the hole.  ::shudder::  that was so repulsive to me it had to go as well.

I am male. And gay. And va jay jays creep me out.


Jay

Great to hear you are so satisfied with your results, sneakersjay.  Can you stand to pee at an urinal with the guys?  That is what I want most to do in the end.  I want everything that has to do with monthly bleeding gone, hole and all.

Quote from: mm on November 15, 2011, 10:07:23 AM
Great to hear you are so satisfied with your results, sneakersjay.  Can you stand to pee at an urinal with the guys?  That is what I want most to do in the end.  I want everything that has to do with monthly bleeding gone, hole and all.

Yes, I can pee at a urinal.

Jay

Great to hear, sneakersjay, that would make the whole lower surgery worthwhile for me.

When I have clothes on I don't notice it really cause I feel like a man at all times. It's when I take showers that I dislike it. I can't look in the mirror if I don't have clothes on and I touch it as little as possible. It's useless to me. Besides going to the bathroom i don't do anything with it.

Quote from: sneakersjay on November 15, 2011, 10:22:03 AM
Yes, I can pee at a urinal.

Jay

Jay, I think I already asked you once but I can't remember. How painful was the surgery (if you don't mind me asking) and how long was recovering time? Did you get a phallo or meta done?

Quote from: Felix on November 14, 2011, 06:15:25 PM
I just want to reiterate that the problem that I had was with the carelessness of the question. For me personally, the word "hate" makes me touchy. I feel like not hating my genitalia has made me the odd man out sometimes.

Well, that's right too. Now I know much more about what other people think and feel.

Quote from: Josh T on November 16, 2011, 10:48:44 PM
Jay, I think I already asked you once but I can't remember. How painful was the surgery (if you don't mind me asking) and how long was recovering time? Did you get a phallo or meta done?

I had a full meta with vaginectomy, urethral hookup and testicular implants.  Recovery was a good 8 weeks, not too painful but a bit uncomfortable.  Nothing advil or tylenol couldn't take care of.  Somewhere around here is my long version of the events, maybe in bottom surgery?


Jay

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,81846.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,81846.0.html)

thanks again man for sharing your experiences! i really appreciate it.

QuoteI hated my junk so much I got rid of it.

Jay, I also appreciate you sharing your experience. Hope to follow in your footsteps.


For many years, I hated all genitalia and wanted to be like GI Joe.
Once the decision to physically transition got underway it became clear I totally want some man junk under the hood. Varoom.
It feels weird to be mismatched. Using male words for lower anatomy makes it easier to deal with, but for me it's a temporary bandaid until matching parts can be installed.

Quote from: sneakersjay on November 17, 2011, 10:37:11 AM
I had a full meta with vaginectomy, urethral hookup and testicular implants.  Recovery was a good 8 weeks, not too painful but a bit uncomfortable.  Nothing advil or tylenol couldn't take care of.  Somewhere around here is my long version of the events, maybe in bottom surgery?


Jay

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,81846.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,81846.0.html)

Ah I had one more question. By recovery do you mean hospital time or in general?

Being perfectly blunt,
Yes, I hate my female genitalia.
It makes me angry that it's there because others see me as a female because they don't see a bulge there. Humans are often shallow and don't understand 'Don't judge a book by it's cover,'
Because of my genitalia, I am treated like something that I am not and I'm misunderstood.
If I could rip it off and out of me without dying, I would do it without a second thought.

Quote from: Cody Jensen on November 18, 2011, 06:03:06 PM
Ah I had one more question. By recovery do you mean hospital time or in general?

Was in the hospital less than a week.  Full recovery by 8 weeks though still a bit stiff and sore.  Not really painful.


Jay

Quote from: sneakersjay on November 19, 2011, 08:17:35 AM
Was in the hospital less than a week.  Full recovery by 8 weeks though still a bit stiff and sore.  Not really painful.


Jay

Congrats man! Happy for ya

Quote from: kyril on November 12, 2011, 10:58:22 PM
"Hate" is a strong word. I'm kind of grossed out by it (I'm gay. I shouldn't ever have to touch one of those things.) But I don't hate it...I can get off, and it provides a really easy convenient way to get my boyfriend off too, and it's just generally fairly harmless.

If it weren't slimy, I'd be totally OK with the hole part, and my only problem with my dick is that it isn't bigger.

I loved this answer! :)

I don't consider my genitalia "female" or gendered at all really nor do I necessarily "hate" it. In many respects I'm pretty indifferent to what's below the waste. Like some said, "out of sight, out of mind."  On the other hand there are times when I have to acknowledge what's down there and it bugs me, especially when it comes to sex. Other people touching that area of my body freaks me out, so directly contact with the genitals I was born with is pretty much off bounds in a relationship. Sometimes that bothers me, other times not. On the other hand, at this point having bottom surgery doesn't appeal to me.

I definitely want to be rid of the general reproductive system, though. Just having that sitting there is blech :embarrassed:

Quote from: Nygeel on November 12, 2011, 02:46:15 AM
I identify as male, thus my genitalia are male.

this this this

I hate my genitals.  It would be a little bit better if I didn't have a monthly but I would much rather have a biological male's penis.  I hate the breasts to but I hate them less than the bottom.  I'm a fat guy so I'm not going to be walking around shirtless at a beach.  I would rather have boobs and a dick.

I have to say I'm really looking forward to my clit growing once I get on T.  I think that'll make me feel a lot better.  Sometimes I forget I have female genitalia until I go to pee and realize "oh yeah-- I can't just whip it out and go at the urinal....".  This is especially true when I'm passing really well and, for some reason, when I really, REALLY have to pee.  Other than that I'm not too bothered by it right now.  It's not something most people usually see and I'm more worried about those things at the moment.

And to tell you the truth, my favorite come back to any guy who ever told me he can do anything I can do better is to punch myself several times with a good deal of force down there (not hard enough to injure, but it does hurt.... Nothing I can't handle, though).  Gets 'em every time...

Quote from: beyondlabels on November 12, 2011, 02:06:28 AM
All of you hate your female genitalia?

Well, I view every part of my body as male.  But I understand your question and don't think it's offensive.

But to actually answer your question, no I don't hate it.  Not at all.

The problem is some people here think their body is part of the gender. It's clearly not or trans people wouldn't exist.

I'm a woman but my body is male. When I'm dead and someone looks at my bones 200 years from now, they will NOT see female no matter how much surgery I have. I can say I have a female body, but that's not being truthful to myself. I can't say "my junk is female" nor does it become female just because I know I am a woman. It also doesn't make me less of a woman either.

I can change things so my body looks -more- feminine and I'm doing that. But I also have accepted my body will never be -female- either. Even post-op I can have what appears to be female junk but it's really not. That wouldn't stop me from one day doing this, but I AM realistic about what is going on. I think trying to delude yourself into believing your body becomes the sex of the gender you self ID as is not healthy either.

People really need to learn to accept they are trans and that it's OK to be trans.

Quote from: Kvall on November 13, 2011, 10:31:58 AM
Again, nobody is saying that we think our bodies are configured exactly the same as a cis male's, but we are saying that our bodies are every bit as male as a cis male's, despite being configured differently. Learn the difference, learn to understand nuance, and quit making silly assumptions that are obviously untrue and insult our intellects.

Why so focused on your body defining who you are to the point of saying things like this? My having a male body does not make me any less of a woman than a woman that was born with a female body. Why would you insist that your body is no less male than a born male when that has zero, nada, nothing to do with being a man? My body clearly is NOT every bit as female as a cis-female (even if I was post op) but I'm every bit as much of a woman. Gender (man/woman) <> sex (male/female).

Quote from: Stephe on February 22, 2012, 11:30:35 PM
Why so focused on your body defining who you are to the point of saying things like this? My having a male body does not make me any less of a woman than a woman that was born with a female body. Why would you insist that your body is no less male than a born male when that has zero, nada, nothing to do with being a man? My body clearly is NOT every bit as female as a cis-female (even if I was post op) but I'm every bit as much of a woman. Gender (man/woman) <> sex (male/female).

Why so focused on defining other people's bodies to the point of saying things like this?

Quote from: Stephe on February 22, 2012, 11:16:13 PM
The problem is some people here think their body is part of the gender. It's clearly not or trans people wouldn't exist.

I'm a woman but my body is male. When I'm dead and someone looks at my bones 200 years from now, they will NOT see female no matter how much surgery I have. I can say I have a female body, but that's not being truthful to myself. I can't say "my junk is female" nor does it become female just because I know I am a woman. It also doesn't make me less of a woman either.

I can change things so my body looks -more- feminine and I'm doing that. But I also have accepted my body will never be -female- either. Even post-op I can have what appears to be female junk but it's really not. That wouldn't stop me from one day doing this, but I AM realistic about what is going on. I think trying to delude yourself into believing your body becomes the sex of the gender you self ID as is not healthy either.

Well said, Stephe. I can't rate answers yet but if I could I would give you a +1.

Quote from: Nygeel on February 23, 2012, 12:14:09 AM
Why so focused on defining other people's bodies to the point of saying things like this?

Because it's the truth. Our bodies (at least at birth) are female by definition. If not then what are you doing in the "female-to-male" section?
What we want to be the case does not affect what is, in fact, the case.

Quote from: poptart on February 23, 2012, 01:39:23 AM

Because it's the truth. Our bodies (at least at birth) are female by definition. If not then what are you doing in the "female-to-male" section?
What we want to be the case does not affect what is, in fact, the case.

Already wrote about why I'm male earlier in this thread. According to Stephe no surgery in the world can make me male, so why bother calling us "female to male" if we'really always going to be female? I disagree with the FTM label, but for other reasons.

Quote from: Stephe on February 22, 2012, 11:16:13 PM
The problem is some people here think their body is part of the gender. It's clearly not or trans people wouldn't exist.

I'm a woman but my body is male. When I'm dead and someone looks at my bones 200 years from now, they will NOT see female no matter how much surgery I have. I can say I have a female body, but that's not being truthful to myself. I can't say "my junk is female" nor does it become female just because I know I am a woman. It also doesn't make me less of a woman either.

I can change things so my body looks -more- feminine and I'm doing that. But I also have accepted my body will never be -female- either. Even post-op I can have what appears to be female junk but it's really not. That wouldn't stop me from one day doing this, but I AM realistic about what is going on. I think trying to delude yourself into believing your body becomes the sex of the gender you self ID as is not healthy either.

People really need to learn to accept they are trans and that it's OK to be trans.

I totally agree with you.

For me, at least, the way I look at myself is that I'm a guy but I'm not a male.

Quote from: Felix on November 12, 2011, 02:33:43 AM
Um, the <not allowed>? That's kind of an inflammatory post title.

If you'd said it in spanish would it be maybe less crazy?

That seems quite random since you posted a post with the V word in the title...?  Just pointing that out. :p But I get where youre coming from here.

To me, yeah with T I do have a penis and focus on that, but the rest down there, I refuse to acknowledge. I absolutely detest it and the thought almost makes me feel sick. As strong as this may seem, I do have abit of a problem with those that "use" that part for sex. I just cant get my head around why anyone male identified, would. But, thats just me. Not to sound judgemental. Its probably just because of how I feel. I would definitely say I hate the wrong parts down there and I cant wait for my phalloplasty which should be this Summer.

Oh the relief that will be!!!! :)

Quote from: Nygeel on February 23, 2012, 06:22:21 AM
Already wrote about why I'm male earlier in this thread. According to Stephe no surgery in the world can make me male, so why bother calling us "female to male" if we'really always going to be female? I disagree with the FTM label, but for other reasons.

With surgery and hormones your body won't be male to the same degree that most guys are (ex. XY chromosomes, male internal organs) but it will still have traversed from female to intersex to a variation of male. I don't like the "female to male" label either and I don't use it -- but it does describe the physical process.

However the subject of this thread isn't the body as a whole but the female genitalia, which we do have unless post-operative, or unless male hormones have given us chemically-induced intersex genitalia. My point is that the way you view your body doesn't change what it actually is.

I still agree with what I wrote months ago.

My brain has always been male. My body is female. This is why I am trans. My body is not male just because my gender identity is. It's a male's body, but it's still female. Surgery can change the shape of my body to male, but every cell will always be XX and female. There is no medical procedure that can make me 100% male. Even though I will never be cis I am still transitioning from female to male in a lot of ways.

Quote from: Nygeel on February 23, 2012, 12:14:09 AM
Why so focused on defining other people's bodies to the point of saying things like this?

I'm not focused on it is the whole point you seemed to miss. I can promise you though society is not going to agree with this "I identify as male, thus my genitalia are male." concept.

And why do you care if your body will never be the exact same as a bio male, when that has NOTHING to do with how much of a man you are? This body nonsense is why some MTF sit around and say BS like "Until you have SRS you are not a woman" garbage. That has zero/nada/nothing to do with -gender-.

As in my example, there are many things we can't change ever, bone structure, hand size and shape etc. All are sex markers of a body type that will go with us to our graves. I will never be able to get preggers or have a period, you will never be able to get a woman preggers which pretty much describes normal bio female vs male functions. Maybe this pisses you off to hear but you can't make your body as male as a bio male's body. Just as I can't make my body just as female as a bio female's.

I CAN be just as much of a woman as any woman and can change my body closer to how I self ID. You can be just as much of a man as any man who ever lived and change your body to a certain extent as well. But if you focus on this ideal of your body is completely male when it's just not factual, you will never be happy. You're looking for the proverbial pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

I feel the statement "I identify as a man, thus my body is a mans body" is very true but not "I identify as a man, thus my body is a male body". Man <> being male. They are not mutually exclusive either.

Quote from: Stephe on February 23, 2012, 10:29:12 PM
I'm not focused on it is the whole point you seemed to miss. I can promise you though society is not going to agree with this "I identify as male, thus my genitalia are male." concept.

And why do you care if your body will never be the exact same as a bio male, when that has NOTHING to do with how much of a man you are? This body nonsense is why some MTF sit around and say BS like "Until you have SRS you are not a woman" garbage. That has zero/nada/nothing to do with -gender-.

As in my example, there are many things we can't change ever, bone structure, hand size and shape etc. All are sex markers of a body type that will go with us to our graves. I will never be able to get preggers or have a period, you will never be able to get a woman preggers which pretty much describes normal bio female vs male functions. Maybe this pisses you off to hear but you can't make your body as male as a bio male's body. Just as I can't make my body just as female as a bio female's.

I CAN be just as much of a woman as any woman and can change my body closer to how I self ID. You can be just as much of a man as any man who ever lived and change your body to a certain extent as well. But if you focus on this ideal of your body is completely male when it's just not factual, you will never be happy. You're looking for the proverbial pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

I feel the statement "I identify as a man, thus my body is a mans body" is very true but not "I identify as a man, thus my body is a male body". Man <> being male. They are not mutually exclusive either.

Soooo I can't identify as male? I mean...I guess I could say the difference between transsexual vs transgender (in general) is that a transsexual identifies their body as not being the same as their sex assigned at birth. You do seem pretty focused on labeling people's bodies. I am very aware of society not validating how I identify my body...just as I'm aware that society doesn't validate my gender, or choice of dress, etc.

You're also incorrect in many ways. There are people who are assigned male at birth with XX chromosomes. There are people assigned male at birth who have larger hips than shoulders. There are people assigned female at birth who cannot get pregnant, or haven't had periods.

There's always people out there that don't meet the generalizations you're making.

I don't like it but I don't hate it either.  It is what it is.  But on the same note, I would never use my nether-bits for penetration. Completely off limits. However, I DO hate how difficult relationships become because of being out of the norm.  I hated my (now extinct) breasts though.  LOATHED THEM.  Getting rid of them and having the male-type body/characteristics were always the most important things to me.

Quote from: Nygeel on February 23, 2012, 10:39:56 PM
Soooo I can't identify as male? I mean...I guess I could say the difference between transsexual vs transgender (in general) is that a transsexual identifies their body as not being the same as their sex assigned at birth. You do seem pretty focused on labeling people's bodies. I am very aware of society not validating how I identify my body...just as I'm aware that society doesn't validate my gender, or choice of dress, etc.

Actually I'm not focused on this "My body is just like a bio females" at all cause why focus on something that can't be changed to be a fact. It's the same reason I don't buy into all this "I have a birth defect", I don't believe there is anything wrong with the way I am.

And I NEVER said you can't identify as a man. Man does not = you must be male. If it did I would still be a man. I don't need a "same as a bio female" body to be a woman. In my case society DOES validate my gender as a woman.  Most also KNOW I was born with a male body, I don't hide that fact from people I know. Maybe when you get to the point where people accept you as a man, you will understand this whole "My body is just like a bio male" stuff isn't important or realistic. Focusing on this doesn't help people learn to accept being trans and become at peace with themselves. I've seen too many post-op/post everything/pass 100% people who still are haunted by their gender because of this false hope/belief.

While there are men who have been assigned female at birth and women who were assigned male at birth, there are no males born with a vagina and no females born with a penis. To say otherwise is trying to make up a new definition of societies common language. And you are never going to convince society that genitals have nothing to do with what sex a person was born as, but they seem to grasp that gender isn't necessarily connected to what sex you are born as.

Quote from: Stephe on February 24, 2012, 11:04:35 AMMaybe when you get to the point where people accept you as a man, you will understand this whole "My body is just like a bio male" stuff isn't important or realistic.

Did I miss something? I don't recall anyone's having said in this thread that his body is just like that of a cis male body. In any event, cis male bodies vary widely.

Quote from: Stephe on February 24, 2012, 11:04:35 AMWhile there are men who have been assigned female at birth and women who were assigned male at birth, there are no males born with a vagina and no females born with a penis.

Depends on how you look at it. Some intersex people are assigned one thing or the other at birth, yet they have parts that don't fit comfortably into one category exclusively. Are you talking about how people are assigned, or how they identify, or something else?

The way I classify my body varies. I frequently think of my body as trans or intersex. I've been pretty nicely brainwashed to equate man with male and male with penis, so I constantly question my genitals, my sex, and sometimes even my gender and the sanity of my identification. But if I'd been brought up in a society that didn't automatically make the assumption that man=male=penis, I wouldn't assume it, either. Then maybe I wouldn't worry about my parts.

When I imagine that some guy is fellating me, I feel that I have a male body. Not just a man's body--I still feel that I'm more of a boy, by the way--but a male body. An atypical male body, sure. A body that the medical establishment wouldn't classify as male, I know. Definitely a body that millions of laypersons would not call male.

One thing I do know, and I know it to my core. I do not have a female body.

In a binary world, where the hell does that leave me?

I think it's both counterproductive and misleading to base "male" and "female" exclusively on genitals, especially since lots of people don't fit into those neat little categories. The male and female categories seem to be based on the false assumption that brain and body are always aligned one way or the other or that they should be. No cross-identification, no in-between, no both, no more than two, no absence, no intersex, no trans. If anything exists other than the classic categories, pandemonium ensues.

I think that the medical and societal obsession with labeling people as one or the other does a great deal of damage, especially to people who don't fit easily into the classification system.

The binary scolds me when I feel that I have a male body, my male body that is unlike any other male body. In my opinion, the binary is the problem. But we all grew up in it, and I see no easy escape. Otherwise, I would not get all hung up (excuse the pun) on my parts in the first place. And neither would anyone else.

Quote from: Stephe on February 24, 2012, 11:04:35 AM
Actually I'm not focused on this "My body is just like a bio females" at all cause why focus on something that can't be changed to be a fact. It's the same reason I don't buy into all this "I have a birth defect", I don't believe there is anything wrong with the way I am.

No, you're misunderstanding me. I'm saying you're telling other people how to identify and not identify. You're telling me what we are and what we are not. I personally don't see being trans as a birth defect, but I am male.

Quote
And I NEVER said you can't identify as a man. Man does not = you must be male. If it did I would still be a man. I don't need a "same as a bio female" body to be a woman. In my case society DOES validate my gender as a woman.  Most also KNOW I was born with a male body, I don't hide that fact from people I know. Maybe when you get to the point where people accept you as a man, you will understand this whole "My body is just like a bio male" stuff isn't important or realistic. Focusing on this doesn't help people learn to accept being trans and become at peace with themselves. I've seen too many post-op/post everything/pass 100% people who still are haunted by their gender because of this false hope/belief.

I also never said anything about identifying as a man. You keep telling me that man and male are not the same, equal or related, and I agree. However, you keep bringing up my being a man when I've never really mentioned being a man. What it comes down to it is I identify as a male so my body is male. I understand that you don't like me identifying this way but that's unfortunate that how I identify is wrong to you. This whole policing of body identities isn't cool in my book.

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While there are men who have been assigned female at birth and women who were assigned male at birth, there are no males born with a vagina and no females born with a penis. To say otherwise is trying to make up a new definition of societies common language. And you are never going to convince society that genitals have nothing to do with what sex a person was born as, but they seem to grasp that gender isn't necessarily connected to what sex you are born as.

A penis is a clitoris that has grown due to hormonal conditions in the womb. With each part of the genitals, there is an equivalent from one to another. Yes, there are people with situations like you're describing as not existing. I don't really care so much about convincing society about genitals because I don't have the spoons (mental strength/ability) to do it.

It should also be said that on a legal level trans people can change their markers on their ID/license....hmmm...what do those say? Sex or gender? Male/female or man/woman?

I hate it to an extent. I pack, and that suffices for me for now. I don't want SRS for the fact that the general outcome doesn't look as natural as i'd like, so I'd rather have what I have and pack over it to ignore it. As far as I'm concerned my packer is just part of my anatomy now and I don't have to worry about what's underneath as long as I don't see it.

It's not about identity, Nygeel. The way you view your body or wish it could be doesn't change what it actually is. I am a realist. You can say that your body as a whole is male because you are, but not the individual parts of it which are, by definition, female. That is known as wishful thinking.

No "policing", just calling things what they are.

Quote from: Nygeel on February 24, 2012, 04:17:00 PM
It should also be said that on a legal level trans people can change their markers on their ID/license....hmmm...what do those say? Sex or gender? Male/female or man/woman?

Here they say "sex" and "M/F". I don't get the point you're trying to make with this, though.

Quote from: Stephe on February 22, 2012, 11:16:13 PM
The problem is some people here think their body is part of the gender. It's clearly not or trans people wouldn't exist.

I'm a woman but my body is male. When I'm dead and someone looks at my bones 200 years from now, they will NOT see female no matter how much surgery I have. I can say I have a female body, but that's not being truthful to myself. I can't say "my junk is female" nor does it become female just because I know I am a woman. It also doesn't make me less of a woman either.

I can change things so my body looks -more- feminine and I'm doing that. But I also have accepted my body will never be -female- either. Even post-op I can have what appears to be female junk but it's really not. That wouldn't stop me from one day doing this, but I AM realistic about what is going on. I think trying to delude yourself into believing your body becomes the sex of the gender you self ID as is not healthy either.

People really need to learn to accept they are trans and that it's OK to be trans.

It makes me a little sad, but you are 100% right IMO. I will always be biologically female, and being in denial of that isnt going to help any trans person.  If I called my junk male, then I would just be deluding myself.  I know it isnt male, but I also know that testosterone has helped make it more masculine.

I will always be "technically" female.  having a male spirit and mind doesnt make my body male.  but I will do what i can to make my body as male as it can be, to make myself feel more true to my mind.

Quote from: Elijah on February 24, 2012, 07:13:10 PM
It makes me a little sad, but you are 100% right IMO. I will always be biologically female, and being in denial of that isnt going to help any trans person.  If I called my junk male, then I would just be deluding myself.  I know it isnt male, but I also know that testosterone has helped make it more masculine.

I will always be "technically" female.  having a male spirit and mind doesnt make my body male.  but I will do what i can to make my body as male as it can be, to make myself feel more true to my mind.

This. I agree 100%.

Quote from: Elijah on February 24, 2012, 07:13:10 PM
It makes me a little sad, but you are 100% right IMO. I will always be biologically female, and being in denial of that isnt going to help any trans person.  If I called my junk male, then I would just be deluding myself.  I know it isnt male, but I also know that testosterone has helped make it more masculine.

I will always be "technically" female.  having a male spirit and mind doesnt make my body male.  but I will do what i can to make my body as male as it can be, to make myself feel more true to my mind.

I sorta find this depressing. So are you saying "there's nothing you can do about it, in the end you're 'technically' trapped in a female body forever"?

Quote from: Cody Jensen on February 25, 2012, 01:29:23 PM
I sorta find this depressing. So are you saying "there's nothing you can do about it, in the end you're 'technically' trapped in a female body forever"?

It is depressing but it's true. Surgery and harmones can change a lot. But nothing will change our sex chromosomes or that our bodies developed as female in the womb.



I don't think being delusional about it is healthy. It's better to accept reality and move on.

Quote from: Cody Jensen on February 25, 2012, 01:29:23 PM
I sorta find this depressing. So are you saying "there's nothing you can do about it, in the end you're 'technically' trapped in a female body forever"?

I find it depressing too Cody.  It has made me sad for the last few days but it's sadly true.  My bones and chromosomes will always be female unless some operation comes 50 years down the line to rearrange my bones into male but I wouldn't want that anyway since most people aren't trying to cut my flesh open to determine if my bones are male or female but at least knowing that somewhere in the world my bones are more stronger than at least 2 cismales is really comforting.  Sad but true.

Quote from: Elijah on February 24, 2012, 07:13:10 PM
It makes me a little sad, but you are 100% right IMO. I will always be biologically female, and being in denial of that isnt going to help any trans person.  If I called my junk male, then I would just be deluding myself.  I know it isnt male, but I also know that testosterone has helped make it more masculine.

I will always be "technically" female.  having a male spirit and mind doesnt make my body male.  but I will do what i can to make my body as male as it can be, to make myself feel more true to my mind.

I know everyone is getting really sad and depressed about it but he is also saying that he can make his body as much male as he can. We can't change reality. If we did, we wouldn't be trans. We wouldn't be on this site. We would be cis males. At the end of the day, all of our experiences have shaped who we are. Is that really such a bad thing? I like the person I am. I like that I know what a woman goes through. And even though I will probably NEVER do it, I can still get pregnant and experience that but at the same time be the man that I want to be. We are unique. Yes it sucks big time that we have to get surgeries to feel closer to the person we feel like inside but at this point, being depressed about it isn't gonna do anything.

As for the issue with this whole topic. No I don't hate my dowstairs area. It sucks that I will never get to feel what it's like to have a real, full functioning penis but whatever. I can still orgasm. I can still get a dildo and at least simulate intercourse with my girl. Nothing will stop me from being the man I know I am inside. I 100% agree with Stephe. We will always be biological females/males (If you are MTF) and as hard as it can get and depressing as it can get, we are trans. But life is so much more than gender. There are so many experiences I have yet to have. I refuse to live my life depressed over something I literally cannot change. Life is beautiful and most of us are healthy and have a home and food on our tables. Seems to me like we have it good.

I think Logan's right. Maybe some parts will always fall into the "female" category, but we can do a hell of a lot to make ourselves closer to how things should have been. Some people don't transition and are happy that way, and that's good for them. And for those who do, they can go as far as they wish to align things as much as they can. Most people I know are happy post-transition, whatever that entails for them, and have very little dysphoria remaining. I honestly think that's what counts.

Don't you all realize how arbitrary these sex categories are? And how stupidly, dogmatically binary they are? So binary that PTBs have no clear idea how to classify an intersex baby--for years and years, ever since it's been possible, people have been so married to the idea that everyone MUST fit into a particular anatomical box that they have ordered horrifically invasive surgeries to make these babies conform.

The taxonomy DOES NOT ACCOUNT for people like that or for people like us. It DAMAGES such people and punishes them for not fitting in. Therefore, it is inherently flawed, deeply flawed--and, I submit, it is therefore an INVALID classification system.

I don't mean that it isn't used in the "real world" as a medical and legal categorization system; it clearly is. But it DOESN'T WORK. Therefore, I reject it. And if Nygeel rejects it, too, more power to him. He's not deluded; he's simply REDEFINING THE TERMS. His system seems to work very nicely for him, despite your protests that he must be a mental case. In fact, if he's doing what I think he's doing, he is using a classification system that works one hundred percent of the time for anybody who cares to use it.

Which is a helluva lot better than the ninety-seven or ninety-eight percent system that currently tyrannizes us from birth to death.

Quote from: Arch on February 25, 2012, 03:05:08 PM
Don't you all realize how arbitrary these sex categories are? And how stupidly, dogmatically binary they are? So binary that PTBs have no clear idea how to classify an intersex baby--for years and years, ever since it's been possible, people have been so married to the idea that everyone MUST fit into a particular anatomical box that they have ordered horrifically invasive surgeries to make these babies conform.

The taxonomy DOES NOT ACCOUNT for people like that or for people like us. It DAMAGES such people and punishes them for not fitting in. Therefore, it is inherently flawed, deeply flawed--and, I submit, it is therefore an INVALID classification system.

I don't mean that it isn't used in the "real world" as a medical and legal categorization system; it clearly is. But it DOESN'T WORK. Therefore, I reject it. And if Nygeel rejects it, too, more power to him. He's not deluded; he's simply REDEFINING THE TERMS. His system seems to work very nicely for him, despite your protests that he must be a mental case. In fact, if he's doing what I think he's doing, he is using a classification system that works one hundred percent of the time for anybody who cares to use it.

Which is a helluva lot better than the ninety-seven or ninety-eight percent system that currently tyrannizes us from birth to death.

So you'd agree with Nygeel that he's 100% physically male?

Quote from: poptart on February 25, 2012, 03:13:26 PMSo you'd agree with Nygeel that he's 100% physically male?

That's not quite the language he used, but I don't know whether it matters.

Reread his earliest posts in this thread. In his classification system, nobody else has the right to define Nygeel's body.

Quote from: Arch on February 25, 2012, 03:25:01 PM
That's not quite the language he used, but I don't know whether it matters.

Reread his earliest posts in this thread. In his classification system, nobody else has the right to define Nygeel's body.

Thank you Arch for your posts.  You say what I've wanted to say more clearly than I could. 

No one is deluding themselves here, at least I'm not, I know that I was not AMAB but I call myself male.  Does that lead me to believe that I am exactly like a person who is/was AMAB?  No, because I know the circumstances regarding my birth. 

Why get so technical?  If a person came to you in public and said "are you male or female?" (which has happened to me btw) what would you say?  "well technically I'm female but I view myself as a man?"

*SIGH* I see that this isn't getting anywhere. Let's just agree to disagree, I guess.

The only way I think someone is delusional is if they deny they were ever in anyway female.

You can have a non binary identity and still be a binary XX. If you are XX you are biologically female regardless of how you define yourself otherwise. Your mental gender doesn't change your physical or chromosomal gender.

I think how people who fall outside the binary are treated is flawed, not necessarily the binary itself. It will always exist.

I think the problem here is that everyone one had their own opinion, hurray, but some of us are not as strong as others emotionally and this is a thread which pretty much consists of 7 pages of saying "stiff ->-bleeped-<- you'll never be <item>"

I really don't think it's appropriate, I don't get easily triggered, but even I've had a sad about it.

It's no ones place to be saying "there is no Santa" if I want to be deluded I should be, it's not your place to tell me otherwise, and frankly I'm not sure if this stuff really even belongs on a support site, if a certain blogger had said half of this stuff, you lot would have your pitchforks out

I think the binary is flawed (male/female sex), but then why use the binary to challenge the binary?

Look, I happen to think that the strict male/female taxonomy is horribly messed up and inadequate. It doesn't account for me, so I no longer recognize it as valid. I'm clearly not the only one.

Other people can use whatever system they like, but I think it's horribly presumptuous to apply it to someone else who doesn't accept it. And to tell another person that he's delusional for finding and applying a system that DOES work.

If you like the M/F classification system, with all of its flaws and lacunae, I'm happy for you. It's wonderful to be able to work within a system that already exists and that is already accepted by the vast majority. But that taxonomy has only brought me grief, so I now reject it. I'm still trying to find a better way to look at myself, but the classic medical/legal definitions just don't work for me--or for a lot of people. So I reserve the right to redefine the terms. Not for others but for me. I realize that a personal taxonomy has no medical or legal validity, but I'm not using it for that. I'm using it for self-definition. Please respect that.

Weirdly enough, I'm starting to think of sex classification the same way I view religion. After all, both of them are constructed by humans and are not inherently "natural." If you worship a zucchini and I worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I have no business telling you that you're wrong for not believing what I believe. Similarly, if a trans guy redefines his terms so that he has a male body, regardless of how it's configured, he can do that. It might be confusing that he uses existing terminology, but we're talking about self-definition here. You found what works for you, and someone else has found what works for him. Someday I'll find what works for me. But it won't be the medical establishment's classic M/F scheme. It leaves out too many people, and it leaves out me.

Quote from: Elijah on February 24, 2012, 07:13:10 PM
It makes me a little sad, but you are 100% right IMO. I will always be biologically female, and being in denial of that isnt going to help any trans person.  If I called my junk male, then I would just be deluding myself.  I know it isnt male, but I also know that testosterone has helped make it more masculine.

I will always be "technically" female.  having a male spirit and mind doesnt make my body male.  but I will do what i can to make my body as male as it can be, to make myself feel more true to my mind.

Well I gotta say this certainly doesn't help my suicide thoughts and it actually makes them much worse. So I cannot mentally afford to think like this. If this is the case why bother trying to transition at all, I could just jump off a cliff because what's the point? I'll never be a true male anyways, no matter how many hormones they stab into me and no matter how much surgery I get, chest reconstruction, making my lower parts so that I am able to pee standing. Sorry, this did trigger me.

Then why do you have to say it in a "sad but true" way, if chromosomes don't matter?

I wonder why I like browsing the FtM section more than the MtF section...it's the same in my group talks with the support group, where some of the women seem so obsessed with looking like their own personal Barbie and most hate their genitalia with such a passion  that I sometimes feel left out : I have a pee-pee, I dont fantasize about penetrative sex with it and its often in the way of how I perceive things, but it's not the most important thing in my womanhood at all. My social interaction with others ( mainly women) is more important

Like most of you, I don't like the results of SRS, even if it tends to fare better for MtFs...I am terrified it would look off and 'feel' off for myself and a partner, gah :\

Time will tell but guys.. not every cismale measures their manhood with their dicks so that might be somewhat of an out of place comfort thought ;)

Vivien

Quote from: YinYanga on February 27, 2012, 02:39:54 PM
I wonder why I like browsing the FtM section more than the MtF section...it's the same in my group talks with the support group, where some of the women seem so obsessed with looking like their own personal Barbie and most hate their genitalia with such a passion  that I sometimes feel left out : I have a pee-pee, I dont fantasize about penetrative sex with it and its often in the way of how I perceive things, but it's not the most important thing in my womanhood at all. My social interaction with others ( mainly women) is more important

Like most of you, I don't like the results of SRS, even if it tends to fare better for MtFs...I am terrified it would look off and 'feel' off for myself and a partner, gah :\

Time will tell but guys.. not every cismale measures their manhood with their dicks so that might be somewhat of an out of place comfort thought ;)

Vivien

I see what you're saying, it's not all about "down there". But I want bottom surgery very badly, so I can go into a men's room and pee standing, so I can in a way be no different from cis males. I just want the surgery for myself, I'm not saying other people have to feel the same, but that's what I personally want when (if) I ever transition.

Quote from: Cody Jensen on February 27, 2012, 03:12:02 PM
I see what you're saying, it's not all about "down there". But I want bottom surgery very badly, so I can go into a men's room and pee standing, so I can in a way be no different from cis males. I just want the surgery for myself, I'm not saying other people have to feel the same, but that's what I personally want when (if) I ever transition.

And that's perfectly fine hun :)

(I had it easier in that way...I never pee'd while standing, always sat because I deemed it too messy and masculine lol)

I was so caught up in debating other people that I forgot to answer the original question. Answer is no, we don't all hate it (clearly) but I do more than anything in existence. I can't wait to get surgery and leave ->-bleeped-<- **** behind!!

I know that the fact I am male doesn't make my <insert word for female genitals which I won't type> a male organ.

Thanks for getting us back on track, Poptart. I think I was taking us far afield.

Well there's not question that i would have rather have been born with a dick, but I guess I don't really mind having female parts. I try to forget about it. Like others have said, outta sight outta mind.

Quote from: Logan Erik on February 27, 2012, 03:50:02 PM
........................ I'm not saying 'sad but true' anything.  I'm saying I don't give a damn.  I really mean it.  I don't give a ->-bleeped-<- about chromosomes.  I don't think other people should, either.  I'm not taking a side in the debate, I am condemning the debate itself.

Worrying about something like never being as 'fully male' as a cis male because you can't change your chromosomes is silly.  If you're going to feel bad about something, at least make it something practical and relevant that you can work on fixing in order to make your life better.  Like dysphoria or bad relationships or feeling stuck as you are, which are very common everyday issues for us folks.  Yes, it's painful and sometimes terrible, and sometimes there is very little you can do at the moment, but adding on something like the 'degrees of maleness' quandary isn't necessary and certainly isn't going to help you.

You sound kind of sour, like you've been having a rough go of it lately.  I'm sorry for that.  I hope you feel better.  Please don't hurt yourself.

Please note that although this post is more frank than is usual for me, I don't mean to be rude or condescending, only to clearly state my case.

Once again, if you wish, just tell me to stuff it and go away.

Alright fine then. I just don't like being told "I'll never". Like "I'll never be able to change my female chromosomes." or "I'll never be able to move out". Okay bad example two totally different things but still. Actually I was never even thinking about the female chromosomes until now, I just thought "okay, hormones + surgery = male" that's all I was focused on.

Quote from: Cody Jensen on February 28, 2012, 04:34:55 PM
Alright fine then. I just don't like being told "I'll never". Like "I'll never be able to change my female chromosomes." or "I'll never be able to move out". Okay bad example two totally different things but still. Actually I was never even thinking about the female chromosomes until now, I just thought "okay, hormones + surgery = male" that's all I was focused on.

I thought it was a bit like that too ...until I noticed some people ( generally straight cismen) think that if you are born with certain chromosomes you'll never ever be the gender you want to transition to. I am sure that if science finds a way to change that they will probably come up with something like "Well you lived a certain way and have memories so you don't experience everything" or the thought you were something 'else' just makes them dismiss you

A lot of my negative thoughts about gender come from the internet, whether I read them or it was someone who said something to me. I know it doesnt 'feel ' that way but it does make me feel down and I am very sensitive to those things ( One of the reasons I am not sure I'll ever transition well, because of my unsecurity)

Ps: I hope I dont sound misandric but I value men / masculinity, it's just very easy for me to get frustrated with certain behaviour of , mostly, straight boys/men. Jee, I probably have been more masculine than my whole life the last few years: the closer I get to transition to the female body I want the more open or confronted I am by it, it's scary and weird to me ...a bit like discovering little details on your favourite painting you had for so long

i hate everything that looks female on my body. and the day that i get it all removed and fixed to the way it should have been at birth, will be the best day of my life.

I don't hate my genitalia; I just dislike them. Hatred isn't a word I really want to use for something that did nothing wrong, and that doesn't make me fly with seething rage. All I really do is frown a little, but then try to move on to something else. Also, I tend to detach myself from my body. I like to think of myself as a brain in a poorly picked suitcase that I don't like, but can deal and live with if need be...if that makes sense.

Quote from: Nygeel on February 24, 2012, 04:17:00 PM
You keep telling me that man and male are not the same, equal or related, and I agree. However, you keep bringing up my being a man when I've never really mentioned being a man.

OK one last try..

(Gender) Man/Woman. The reason I say you are a man is that is what gender is.  Your gender is clearly that of a man.

(Sex) Male/Female. You were born female, that is your sex. We can modify our bodies to a certain extent but we are limited on what can be done.

(Transgender) In a cisgender world, sex=gender. We know this isn't true because we exist, transgender people exist. So -we- know: That your sex is doesn't define your gender.

(Sexual orientation) Has nothing to do with any of the above.

Trying to believe you are the same as any male or my trying to believe I am the same as any female is falling into the same cisgender trap we bitch at cisgender people for doing.

Trying to force this cisgender system to work for us does NOT work. The whole male=man female=woman is broken, again we are proof that it is. Trying to fit ourselves into this broken model will never work. I have talked to too many stealth post op women who have said things like "I will always be haunted by my being transgendered." They believed once they got their surgery, it would all disappear. Unless you accept this cisgender model is wrong and that it's OK that you don't fit, you will never be at peace with yourself.

I am NOT saying this is all anyone needs to do to be happy either.  What people choose to do about it to make themselves more comfortable is all fine and dandy. I've had some facial surgery, take hormones and likely will get a boob job and maybe more.  I am living as a woman full time (for a few years now), people accept me as a woman, I have pretty much put this trans stuff behind me and am doing other things with my life now. I am not "haunted by this" anymore. I fully believe to do all sorts of body mods and not accept the cisgender model is broken is a recipe for unhappiness.

I also firmly believe the ONLY way the general public will ever accept us is if we deconstruct the cisgender system rather than buying into it ourselves.

Be proud you are as much of a man as any man alive and don't sweat this stuff about -being as male as any other male- that part really just doesn't matter.

I think you have a point, a good argument Stephe...
Yet you must realise your ARE treading on very, VERY thin ice over here...

my 2 cents...
Michélle

I do not hate it at all.I'm actually fine with it.I'm not sure if I'm ever going to have a bottom surgery.When I start T I'll get a small penis and for now I think that will be enough for me.I dislike my breasts more then vagina.I'll probably have top surgery but at the moment I'm thinking just about starting T.

I had to think about this some more about 'never" being able to be fully male and then it hit me.  For me personally I find that untrue.  I will be completely male one day according to my personal view on the afterlife.  In that life I will be a biological cismale.  In this life....well, lets just say that I'm a different type of male.  :)

Quote from: Stephe on February 28, 2012, 11:41:14 PM
OK one last try..

(Gender) Man/Woman. The reason I say you are a man is that is what gender is.  Your gender is clearly that of a man.

(Sex) Male/Female. You were born female, that is your sex. We can modify our bodies to a certain extent but we are limited on what can be done.

(Transgender) In a cisgender world, sex=gender. We know this isn't true because we exist, transgender people exist. So -we- know: That your sex is doesn't define your gender.

(Sexual orientation) Has nothing to do with any of the above.

Trying to believe you are the same as any male or my trying to believe I am the same as any female is falling into the same cisgender trap we bitch at cisgender people for doing.

Trying to force this cisgender system to work for us does NOT work. The whole male=man female=woman is broken, again we are proof that it is. Trying to fit ourselves into this broken model will never work. I have talked to too many stealth post op women who have said things like "I will always be haunted by my being transgendered." They believed once they got their surgery, it would all disappear. Unless you accept this cisgender model is wrong and that it's OK that you don't fit, you will never be at peace with yourself.

I am NOT saying this is all anyone needs to do to be happy either.  What people choose to do about it to make themselves more comfortable is all fine and dandy. I've had some facial surgery, take hormones and likely will get a boob job and maybe more.  I am living as a woman full time (for a few years now), people accept me as a woman, I have pretty much put this trans stuff behind me and am doing other things with my life now. I am not "haunted by this" anymore. I fully believe to do all sorts of body mods and not accept the cisgender model is broken is a recipe for unhappiness.

I also firmly believe the ONLY way the general public will ever accept us is if we deconstruct the cisgender system rather than buying into it ourselves.

Be proud you are as much of a man as any man alive and don't sweat this stuff about -being as male as any other male- that part really just doesn't matter.

Please stop telling me what I should and should not be. Please stop telling me how to identify. Please stop telling me what does and does not matter. And also, do not tell me what my gender "clearly" is. I define who I am.

You keep saying that I am saying man=male/woman=female, but I'm not. I'm saying that I am a male.

Quote from: Malachite on February 29, 2012, 04:12:48 AM
I had to think about this some more about 'never" being able to be fully male and then it hit me.  For me personally I find that untrue.  I will be completely male one day according to my personal view on the afterlife.  In that life I will be a biological cismale.  In this life....well, lets just say that I'm a different type of male.  :)

Ha glad I'm not alone here, I think like this too. I think "okay that's it, in the next life time I'm coming back as a cismale".

Quote from: Nygeel on February 29, 2012, 01:03:14 PM
Please stop telling me what I should and should not be. Please stop telling me how to identify. Please stop telling me what does and does not matter. And also, do not tell me what my gender "clearly" is. I define who I am.

You keep saying that I am saying man=male/woman=female, but I'm not. I'm saying that I am a male.

  Actually I'm just trying to explain the semantics of what gender vs sex are and apologize if you feel I have singled you out. Seriously, go do some gender research yourself. Man is a definition of gender, male is a definition of a sex, when you deconstruct the cisgender model. There is a reason these two words exist rather than just one.

Using these terms interchangeably is buying into the cisgender model we exist in spite of. A transgender person will very likely never be at peace with themselves trying to make the cisgender model work for them by trying to use these terms interchangeably.

I really fail to understand how you would be offended when I say your gender is clearly that of a man. I'm recognizing you for what you are inside without judging you by what type of body configuration you outwardly may have. What body you got handed at birth doesn't define your gender. Whether someone is male or female should only matter to a sex partner. I honestly don't care what sex other people are nor is it any of my business.

Feel free to call yourself whatever terms you choose but I also have a right to see you as a man and ignore whatever your sex may or may not be. Our sex has no part in defining our gender or we wouldn't exist. To insist on gendering someone by their sex (including yourself) is as misguided IMHO as what every bigoted cisgender people who attacks us does. To -unbind- sex from gender gives us the freedom to choose what path we need to take to find happiness. To buy into this cisgender nonsense on the other hand, limits us to one single path that may never be "enough", depending on how strongly you buy into the cisgender model. I've seen too many people who after a dozen surgeries still saying "But if only I could _____"....

Again I'm not saying I don't accept your saying "I am male". I'm saying: I don't care what your sex is, I see you as a man.

Stephe, if I say I identify as a man then I clearly am a man, but I don't think I've said that in this thread.

As I said in my last post, I haven't said man=male, woman=female. I do a lot of social justice work and along with other friends I've helped create a way to think about sex and gender in ways that are not cissexist. Some of the things you've said are cissexist. You have the right to see me as a man but you should also recognize that you might be wrong by seeing me that way.

QuoteAs in my example, there are many things we can't change ever, bone structure, hand size and shape etc.

This is false.  I may not be able to, and you may not be able to, but there are already young trans folk out there who are growing up with skeletal structures that they are not going to hate, thanks to the wisdom of their parents and doctors who have allowed them access to the treatments they require to avoid the unwanted effects of endogenous hormones.  Some such individuals could be reading this thread right now.

Hand (and foot) size and shape are also things that many, though not all, trans guys report a change in once starting testosterone.  Even height can be affected with an early enough start.

QuoteAll are sex markers of a body type that will go with us to our graves.

And there are other non-hormonal, biological sex markers that would be read the way we would prefer, after spending enough time under the influence of exogenous sex hormones.

QuoteI will never be able to get preggers or have a period, you will never be able to get a woman preggers

You may never be able to get pregnant, but there is every chance that I will be able to get a woman pregnant, given the desire to do so and the financial means to achieve it.  The science is nearly there.  Do you mean I will never be able to impregnate anyone using the same method through which I was conceived? probably not, but there are plenty of people born with testicles who will also never be able to get anyone pregnant that way, either.

Further, it happens very rarely, but it is also possible for someone with two X chromosomes to have the SRY gene translocated onto one of them.  These individuals have testicles and are assigned male at birth, but if a simple chromosome test was run, they would be told that they are female, despite the bulk of physical evidence to the contrary.

Biology doesn't care about the binary.  And the idea that "you can't be ZZZ because society doesn't agree with you" doesn't carry a lot of weight with me, either.  For one, society is not monolithic.  Two, I am part of society, and I am a greater authority on who I am than any other member of it.  And three, appealing to popularity is indulging in fallacy.

To the original question, I dislike the degree to which my genitals were feminized prior to birth.  While they are not and never will be all they had the potential to be, they are masculinized.  They are not feminine.  I want what I have to be manipulated into a different configuration, and plan to make surgical adjustments when I can afford it.

most of us are 100% male/female. then there's the rare few who are ambiguous in one respect or another. i accept that i am sexually ambiguous. i know the word is "transgender," which i have no problem calling myself, but technically, we're all like hermaphrodites here, and it doesn't matter that biology or society doesn't consider the brain as a sex organ, because you could use reason and common sense to know that it is, which is why it's something we don't "choose." so, a transgender persons body can't be all that male/female if the brain is something different. i know i don't fit the perfect binary model for male/female, but i accept myself as female, and i identify as female, so what i see is, my mind has more power than my body, so my mind wins in the end. i won't try to say that my penis is female genitalia, but i believe it's all about graduating to the point where you can see it as not male/female, and just the way my body was made as nature intended it to be.

Sure, I would love to have been born with a dick--but my 'parts' have been good to me LOL and I've experienced growth / changes since starting T.

If someone handed me the $$ and lower surgery for FTMs yielded amazing results I'd give it some thought but really, I don't know if I'd do it even then.

For me, it was my chest: INSANE dysphoria. INSANE.

I don't hate anything.*

It may be weird to say that... but it's horrible only when others identify me as a "woman" by my genitalia.
When my ex-girlfriend told me that - "You have a female body, your female genitalia works like a charm when I tickle it, you must be a true woman - also in mind." - was really bad.
Masturbation is okay, I wouldn't have any problems with penetration - if my partner doesn't bother with my female body, and sees me as male or neutral (nothing), everything is OK. (I don't take T so no clue what would happen if... But recently, Buck Angel's message got me. :) )


*Okay, it feels so strange to see my chest - but I flat it with my palms in front of the mirror, then have a T-shirt and... here it goes, I can't see them for a while. But that's not called genitalia, eh. :)

Okay, I replied here once before - can't remember what I said then, but it bears answering again:

When I first started transition, I was all set on getting the meta, getting the hole closed up, everything. I associated that hole with bad memories of previous relationships and how I ignored how screwed up I was. Then I had a hysterectomy. Big cause of bad memories (pregnancy and stillbirth) was gone. After some months on T my female parts became masculinised in appearance - they looked sufficiently like a miniature version of male parts to make me feel a lot more comfortable with them.

After over a year on T, my overall appearance had changed quite dramatically. I learned that it was okay to need a physically male body but remain floating somewhere around the middle of the gender spectrum. I felt miles more comfortable in my skin than I've ever been. I began to experiment with solo play, and discovered the extra orifice down there wasn't so bad after all. I've since become sexually active with someone again, and it felt so different from when I was living as female.

The only thing that bothers me now is the lack of functioning phallus (sexually and being able to pee standing), so I still want a meta. But until that happens there are ways round it; my chest is a far more pressing problem.. literally XP

well I'm MTF and I'm not very dsphoric with my penis. I do plan on having srs asap though.

Quote from: Nygeel on November 12, 2011, 02:46:15 AM
I identify as male, thus my genitalia are male.

Yeap, this.

Quote from: Liam Erik on April 08, 2012, 04:21:04 PM
:eusa_doh: :eusa_wall: Must we dredge this up again?

Yessss!

Quote from: Liam Erik on April 08, 2012, 04:21:04 PM
:eusa_doh: :eusa_wall: Must we dredge this up again?

This.  We beat it to death the first time.  We are going to have to agree to disagree as far as the semantics go.

Quote from: Andy8715 on April 08, 2012, 05:02:53 PM
This.  We beat it to death the first time.  We are going to have to agree to disagree as far as the semantics go.

True but it's nice to get newer people's opinions on things that may not have gotten the chance to give it when it was originally posted.  A lot of the questions I typed in in google that lead to here came from years ago and I think "if only I were there back then to answer it."

I've avoided this thread for months, even just the thread title pisses me off. But it looks like that's been discussed already.

I once had female genitalia. I've not had bottom surgery but T has made my junk significantly larger/visible and when erect, capable of penetrative sex. I'm not going into more detail than that, but my genitalia is NOT female. I know some of you think that if we haven't had bottom surgery, we still have female genitalia and that believing otherwise means we are delusional. I get where the mtf crowd is coming from on this... for them, it's there or it's not. Yeah, it can change in size and function but HRT does not significantly affect the outward appearance of their genitalia like it does ours. So please don't impose that all or nothing mentality on us here because it's just not that cut and dried. If anything, my genitalia is ambiguous now but to me it feels and appears distinctly male (especially when I'm sexually aroused).

As for the question heh... I've come to enjoy my penis a lot. My dysphoria surrounding masturbation and sex has gone down significantly too which has been great.

I can definitely see your point that after a time on T our genitalia are no longing female in appearance and show more ambiguous appearance even perform more like  a male.  I want to get started on T ASAP so I can have the great results I see and hear about.  I still read all I can on bottom surgery to see what else can be done.

I dont have a problem with it at all...especially after a couple of years on T. What chest I have is all that bothers me...

consider the advantages....you dont get a visible hard on in public:)

Female genitalia? It's non-binary genitalia, just as I am non-binary bodied. On a transguy, it would be male genitalia, just as a transguy is male-bodied. I am, however, CAFAB, and have the genitalia of a CAFAB person. I rarely pay attention to it-it's not particularly prominent, and as that's basically what I need, it serves my purposes (I just wish it didn't bleed everywhere). Sometimes, though, I do wish I had a dick (I wish I could be a CAMAB non-binary instead of a CAFAB one sometimes), and then I do get pretty upset.

Edit: ...I was writing that when I didn't have major dysphoria. ._. It used to be 90% fine, and 10% major dysphoria. In the few days since I've posted, it's changed to 10% fine, 90% major dysphoria.

 :police:

Hello friends  :)  I deleted the last few posts because things were getting a bit out of hand

Let's keep responses civil and avoid venturing into personal attack territory

I tend to be ambivalent to down there. It's there, there's nothing I can do about it. I'm asexual so I don't really care. I wish that I had a penis most of the time, but that isn't going to happen so I try and forget about it. I've tried to pack, but I've not found a way of making it comfortable so I don't do that either.