Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Seriously, I think if we have crossdressers on here. We should acknowledge the drag queens.

Drag is crossdressing.

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on November 14, 2011, 04:45:10 PM
Drag is crossdressing.

Then a subforum then.

I'll look into this.

Z

Yeah, I think it's fair to say that drag is a distinct form of crossdressing and also represents a departure from gender normative behavior, so I could see there being a forum for it.

The question is whether such a forum would ever be used.  As I brought up regarding the lack of a specifically female crossdressing forum, if a group is reasonably accepted, it's unlikely they'd come here looking for support.  Drag queens (and kings) are accepted as dressing according to the gender that matches their body and identity most of the time and when they're in drag, it's usually in a supportive environment, whereas crossdressers usually want to exist in their day-to-day lives dressing as a different gender than their bodies and identities, which comes with a whole different social stigma.

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on November 14, 2011, 05:22:09 PM
Yeah, I think it's fair to say that drag is a distinct form of crossdressing and also represents a departure from gender normative behavior, so I could see there being a forum for it.

The question is whether such a forum would ever be used.  As I brought up regarding the lack of a specifically female crossdressing forum, if a group is reasonably accepted, it's unlikely they'd come here looking for support.  Drag queens (and kings) are accepted as dressing according to the gender that matches their body and identity most of the time and when they're in drag, it's usually in a supportive environment, whereas crossdressers usually want to exist in their day-to-day lives dressing as a different gender than their bodies and identities, which comes with a whole different social stigma.

I thought crossdressers did it part time like the drags.

I see no reason to not have a Drag Queen child board (Sub Forum) listed in the Crossdresser Talk forum, it is as mentioned, a distinct form of crossdressing and also often associated with various social and performing arts venues  :)  Sounds like a good idea

Quote from: V M on November 14, 2011, 06:52:16 PM
I see no reason to not have a Drag Queen child board (Sub Forum) listed in the Crossdresser Talk forum, it is as mentioned, a distinct form of crossdressing and also often associated with various social and performing arts venues  :)  Sounds like a good idea

Well whether people want to admit it or not, they are part of our community. Drags show up at the trans marches and other stuff.

Yes, they are gay boys 70% of the time. But they also provide a valuable service to the community, even though they don't want surgery.

Idc, I just think the forum would be slow as fck.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 14, 2011, 06:58:56 PM
Well whether people want to admit it or not, they are part of our community. Drags show up at the trans marches and other stuff.

Yes, they are gay boys 70% of the time. But they also provide a valuable service to the community, even though they don't want surgery.

Well yes, they are part of the trans community, that's exactly why I suggested placing a Drag Queen child board under the Crossdresser Talk forum  :)

I would love to learn tips and tricks from them.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 14, 2011, 06:33:55 PM
I thought crossdressers did it part time like the drags.

I think a lot of crossdressers do dress up part-time.  My main point was that the setting for dressing up is different.

Quote from: JenJen2011 on November 14, 2011, 07:21:16 PM
I would love to learn tips and tricks from them.

So would I... ohhhhhhhhh Krylon and Ben Nye.

I say No, Drag queens are not transgender folks, they are cis males who make a life inpersonating females. Where we do stop ? If we give a forum to drag queesn, then how about ->-bleeped-<- prostitue forum, a she-male forum, ->-bleeped-<- dog forum, etc

Jen61

Quote from: Jen61 on November 14, 2011, 08:39:38 PM
I say No, Drag queens are not transgender folks, they are cis males who make a life inpersonating females. Where we do stop ? If we give a forum to drag queesn, then how about ->-bleeped-<- prostitue forum, a she-male forum, ->-bleeped-<- dog forum, etc

Jen61

-1

If it wasn't for drag, I wouldn't have transitioned.

Quote from: Jen61 on November 14, 2011, 08:39:38 PM
I say No, Drag queens are not transgender folks, they are cis males who make a life inpersonating females. Where we do stop ? If we give a forum to drag queesn, then how about ->-bleeped-<- prostitue forum, a she-male forum, ->-bleeped-<- dog forum, etc

Jen61

you're very judgemental. this isn't a transgender only site. even then, crossdressing is a type of crossing over gender. you don't think they have their own needs?

Quote from: FullMoon19 on November 14, 2011, 09:19:32 PM
you're very judgemental. this isn't a transgender only site. even then, crossdressing is a type of crossing over gender. you don't think they have their own needs?

Fullmoon,

She means womyn born transsexual.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 14, 2011, 09:24:14 PM
Fullmoon,

She means womyn born transsexual.

oh, i see. that's only repeated on here every 25 minutes  :icon_headache:

Quote from: Jen61 on November 14, 2011, 08:39:38 PM
I say No, Drag queens are not transgender folks, they are cis males who make a life inpersonating females.

Susan's is an inclusive site. From the Community Definitions:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html)

Quote
Transgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and Transvestites.

and

QuoteDrag queens: performers, usually gay men or transgendered women - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the female gender, usually highly exaggerated versions thereof. Drag queens often do drag to perform, singing or lip-syncing and dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades, cabarets, discotheques, and other celebrations and venues.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on November 14, 2011, 09:33:56 PM
oh, i see. that's only repeated on here every 25 minutes  :icon_headache:

Yeah, the elitism here sucks.

Listen, I only give the girls fashion tips...If they choose to ignore them after they ask for feedback. Not my fault.

Quote from: Jen61 on November 14, 2011, 08:39:38 PM
I say No, Drag queens are not transgender folks, they are cis males who make a life inpersonating females. Where we do stop ? If we give a forum to drag queesn, then how about ->-bleeped-<- prostitue forum, a she-male forum, ->-bleeped-<- dog forum, etc

Jen61

Last I checked all those people you list are also gender non conforming and as such they should theoreticaly be welcome here on Susans.
I suppose if we had a sizable ->-bleeped-<- sub group looking for a forum they might get it.
Susans tends to be inclusive not exclusionary.

;)

**whats a ->-bleeped-<- dog?**

i see no issues whatsoever for a drag queen forum. However, the big questions is: will it ever be used?

Quote from: cynthialee on November 14, 2011, 10:16:21 PM


**whats a ->-bleeped-<- dog?**

My dog's gender is male despite his orchidectomy.

Quote from: Annah on November 14, 2011, 10:20:52 PM
i see no issues whatsoever for a drag queen forum. However, the big questions is: will it ever be used?

See all the replies in the fashion forums? Like that but more.... Imagine gay men all over this site.

The fabulous meter is through the roof.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2Fs720x720%2F378694_10150455533439884_741664883_10578276_473658395_n.jpg&hash=e3e9a087d1cd01647240dcb03adba47d46da723b)

I think it would be cool if they did, but would drag queens actually want to come here? I thought they generally identified more with the gay community, and had spaces on gay forums. Same reasons butch girls and genderqueer lesbians don't show up in trans communities very much.

Kia Ora,

::) I thought we already had drag queens in the forum ...

Metta Zenda :)

Re: a drag forum, I'd certainly be reading it when new posts happened...being performers, DQ's probably have a lot of info/suggestions on how to tuck (esp other or unusual methods), etc.

DK's might have useful info for the FTM's, too.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on November 14, 2011, 11:21:45 PM
Re: a drag forum, I'd certainly be reading it when new posts happened...being performers, DQ's probably have a lot of info/suggestions on how to tuck (esp other or unusual methods), etc.

DK's might have useful info for the FTM's, too.

I know how to tuck. do makeup, etc I am a transgender performer...

I think that'd be cool.

Also, not all drag queens conceptualize that identity as solely performance/entertainment. Drag queen is a gender identity for some people of color, whether or not that entails performance. It could also be a chance to include terms that aren't White-centric.

Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 14, 2011, 10:30:50 PM
The fabulous meter is through the roof.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2Fs720x720%2F378694_10150455533439884_741664883_10578276_473658395_n.jpg&hash=e3e9a087d1cd01647240dcb03adba47d46da723b)

Yak !

Drag is performance, entertainment.  It's not a life, a lifestyle or beyond normative behavior anymore than dressing up like a clown is.  Yes, there are some transgender people who go into drag and there are also some gay men who do it and some straight non-trans men who do it.  But it's still entertainment and, for many, a job and/or a business.

There are also transgender people who go into IT and pass very well, certainly a much higher percentage than those who go into drag.  Maybe we should have an IT section?

If DQs want to post here, they are more than welcome to and there are certainly enough places to post anything their hearts desire.  If someone here wants to start a thread dedicated to drag art, there's nothing stopping them.  As far as makeup tips and tricks, anyone choosing to learn how to pass from a drag queen will be clocked in a second.

And anyone looking for information about drag queens can easily find it on the Internet.  I don't see what benefit there would be to having a drag section that will just be redundant to what's available on the Internet and would use up bandwidth on Susan's unnecessarily.

BTW: I Googled "drag queen" and this is what came up on the first page.

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 15, 2011, 11:15:36 AM
Drag is performance, entertainment.  It's not a life, a lifestyle or beyond normative behavior anymore than dressing up like a clown is.  Yes, there are some transgender people who go into drag and there are also some gay men who do it and some straight non-trans men who do it.  But it's still entertainment and, for many, a job and/or a business.

There are also transgender people who go into IT and pass very well, certainly a much higher percentage than those who go into drag.  Maybe we should have an IT section?

If DQs want to post here, they are more than welcome to and there are certainly enough places to post anything their hearts desire.  If someone here wants to start a thread dedicated to drag art, there's nothing stopping them.  As far as makeup tips and tricks, anyone choosing to learn how to pass from a drag queen will be clocked in a second.

And anyone looking for information about drag queens can easily find it on the Internet.  I don't see what benefit there would be to having a drag section that will just be redundant to what's available on the Internet and would use up bandwidth on Susan's unnecessarily.

BTW: I Googled "drag queen" and this is what came up on the first page.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-CklU7IHWlGI%2FToM8X1KGWxI%2FAAAAAAAACsM%2FLUexPUN7acM%2Fs320%2Fdragqueen&hash=b8a4b5fa565ae3050ba4ae1862f5cce137de6134)   

then i searched transsexual. the only word i put in was transsexual.

(http:///wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/a43b1_transsexual-thailand-1.jpg)

this was one of the many pics on the first page that were not of women in a modest looking dress baking a cake.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on November 15, 2011, 12:57:48 PM


(http:///wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/a43b1_transsexual-thailand-1.jpg)

OMG. None of those women look like nerds! How dare you!!! :)

Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 15, 2011, 01:09:04 PM
OMG. None of those women look like nerds! How dare you!!! :)

so then i just searched the word woman, and then i saw a woman popping a chili pepper out her mouth and winking. looking like sex. it isn't like we don't all have stereotypes  ::)

Quote from: FullMoon19 on November 15, 2011, 01:33:24 PM
so then i just searched the word woman, and then i saw a woman popping a chili pepper out her mouth and winking. looking like sex. it isn't like we don't all have stereotypes  ::)

Yeah cuz most people think this:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhprofile-ak-snc4%2F186479_13308188_3149114_n.jpg&hash=bfbc482557dbfc38ff16d91f055cd99f0907a843)

Far too flattering. Most people think balding 40-year-old bloke in a bad wig and a dress from the 1950s. :P

If they think of us at all, which they mostly don't.

Quote from: Sarah7 on November 15, 2011, 03:28:21 PM
Far too flattering. Most people think balding 40-year-old bloke in a bad wig and a dress from the 1950s. :P

If they think of us at all, which they mostly don't.

Really? I think of nerds becoming women...nothing wrong with that.

i was pretty nerdy before i transitioned. i had no glasses, but i did lots of research on a bunch of stuff no kids my age were even focused on, but i also have asperger's, so i do have a nerdy research obsessed side. of course, what else is their to do when you can't do the stuff the other girls are doing that you secretly like, but being a boy just sucks and is very limiting? you could transition (provided you've built the backbone,) become obsessed with some hobby and socially withdraw so you retreat from socially sanctioned gender as much as possible (which is what i did,) then i hear some who have done drugs/alcohol, but i never could've done it being so young and just not believing it. i also daydreamed alot more with my imagination of being the female self i was lacking irl. i also ate alot just because the dopamine helped, so that's what happens, it becomes impossible to be completely independent of dependency. eating a meal was really a highlight of my days.

Quote from: Sarah7 on November 15, 2011, 03:28:21 PM
Far too flattering. Most people think balding 40-year-old bloke in a bad wig and a dress from the 1950s. :P

If they think of us at all, which they mostly don't.

Nothing wrong with a 40 year old bloke in a bad wig and 1950's dress. I think it's damaging and hurtful that society conceptualizes transwomen as men in dresses--it's f***ed up, invalidating, and wrong. I think it's more than reasonable to lash back at that sentiment. But I think it's important to fight the transphobic people perpetuating oppression of transwomen rather than to shame men who like to wear dresses for whatever reason (be it expression, identity, performance, or whatever).

Heck, I'm a bit of a queen, and I hope my glitter lust holds through my 40's.

I'm a part time drag queen(think my current look, but with sexiER clothes/makeup).

That is when my boyfriend lets me out...which is never.

You don't get to choose if your going to be cis or trans, gay or straight, male or female.  All of those people do however get to choose to be fabulous.  And there is always a continual blather - be it about, 'being over the top', 'attracting undue or untoward attention', or that somehow we are wrong for having chosen it - but in the end, it is it's own reward.

And what's funny is the most of the people who don't like the whole 'drag' deal, have never been to a show, or if they've seen 'live drag' its' some tired old person lip-syncing in some out-of-date outfit to some tired old ->-bleeped-<- anthem.  THEY CAN NOT IMAGINE IN THEIR WILDEST DREAMS (or nightmares) the kind of shows that go down (went down, 2000-2003 were really the high-point) at ->-bleeped-<-shack where 'drag' doesn't begin to cover the performance, or even the stuff that still goes down at Aunt Charlies.  They never seen the real polished - and true upholders of the traditional - performers like the shows at Marlane's, or the kind of real pure sex kind of drag shows that used to (and still do as far as I know, but I ain't been there in a decade, not my kind of place) at Divas. 

Quote from: tekla on November 15, 2011, 11:06:16 PM
You don't get to choose if your going to be cis or trans, gay or straight, male or female.  All of those people do however get to choose to be fabulous.  And there is always a continual blather - be it about, 'being over the top', 'attracting undue or untoward attention', or that somehow we are wrong for having chosen it - but in the end, it is it's own reward.

And what's funny is the most of the people who don't like the whole 'drag' deal, have never been to a show, or if they've seen 'live drag' its' some tired old person lip-syncing in some out-of-date outfit to some tired old ->-bleeped-<- anthem.  THEY CAN NOT IMAGINE IN THEIR WILDEST DREAMS (or nightmares) the kind of shows that go down (went down, 2000-2003 were really the high-point) at ->-bleeped-<-shack where 'drag' doesn't begin to cover the performance, or even the stuff that still goes down at Aunt Charlies.  They never seen the real polished - and true upholders of the traditional - performers like the shows at Marlane's, or the kind of real pure sex kind of drag shows that used to (and still do as far as I know, but I ain't been there in a decade, not my kind of place) at Divas.

Many people on this board are sheltered and would rather play Elder Scrolls than hit the City, have a few drinks and socialize(nothing wrong with that!!!)

AsiaSF called me about rehearsals. AsiaSF is another drag place, even though the "drags" are MtFs. I hate that the man wouldn't let me rehearse.. He didn't want me giving people lap dances.

And SF has a history of drag going back to the 50 with some of the most legendary performers of the art.  I went to Finocchio's up on Broadway back in '70 to see my first show, and it was awesome. 

A lot of people love drag.  I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly.  And a lot of people love Barnum & Bailey, Blue Man Group, Cirque du Soleil and the Joffrey.  And I've seen them too.  Some I loved, some I didn't.  It's all entertainment and all fabulous, depending on who you ask.  And if you want to indulge in any of it, it's all there on the Fabulous Internet.

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 15, 2011, 11:37:15 PM
A lot of people love drag.  I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly.  And a lot of people love Barnum & Bailey, Blue Man Group, Cirque du Soleil and the Joffrey.  And I've seen them too.  Some I loved, some I didn't.  It's all entertainment and all fabulous, depending on who you ask.  And if you want to indulge in any of it, it's all there on the Fabulous Internet.

And many drag queens are the gateways to transsexual women...that is the ultrafemme gay male. Drag leads to transition because there is so much alienation in the ultramasculine gay world.

They have a perspective too.

it's all there on the Fabulous Internet.

The internet is not fabulous, it's fake.  Only reality is fabulous, which is why so many people in here, be it drag or Occupy, don't get it, because they don't life in reality.  They live on the net, and hence can't be fabulous, or even comprehend it.

Quote from: tekla on November 15, 2011, 11:45:45 PM
it's all there on the Fabulous Internet.

The internet is not fabulous, it's fake.  Only reality is fabulous, which is why so many people in here, be it drag or Occupy, don't get it, because they don't life in reality.  They live on the net, and hence can't be fabulous, or even comprehend it.

I'm only here because the boyfriend won't let me out to play. I miss the actual real world.

Well my latest entertainment, when I'm not working shows - and Fiest was pretty good last night BTW - is going down to Occupy San Francisco and Occupy Santa Rosa and listening.

Quote from: tekla on November 15, 2011, 11:59:38 PM
Well my latest entertainment, when I'm not working shows - and Fiest was pretty good last night BTW - is going down to Occupy San Francisco and Occupy Santa Rosa and listening.

Some of those Occupy guys are cute. I like beards and long hair...but don't tell anyone.

Hmmm... Neither Elder Scrolls nor the dance/bar scene are up my alley.  I used to get out a lot, but being a parent, that kind of social interaction is a bit lacking now. 

Regardless, isn't it fair to say that the issue with the internet is not its lack of reality, but its ability to obscure people's recognition that they are actually interacting with real people?

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on November 16, 2011, 12:13:44 AM
Hmmm... Neither Elder Scrolls nor the dance/bar scene are up my alley.  I used to get out a lot, but being a parent, that kind of social interaction is a bit lacking now. 

Regardless, isn't it fair to say that the issue with the internet is not its lack of reality, but its ability to obscure people's recognition that they are actually interacting with real people?

My friend brings the kids to the club with her... It's in the Castro and kids have to learn.

How do I know you're really Maya and not an automated a.i. program?

Oh, crap!  How do I know I'm Maya and not an AI program?!  Well, I can see my hands, but I could just be programmed to perceive them to fool myself in order to more effectively fool you...

Can we open a Turing Test forum to sort out the "real" trans from the robots?

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on November 16, 2011, 12:20:33 AM
Oh, crap!  How do I know I'm Maya and not an AI program?!  Well, I can see my hands, but I could just be programmed to perceive them to fool myself in order to more effectively fool you...

Can we open a Turing Test forum to sort out the "real" trans from the robots?

I am not a robot. But in fact a super intelligent virus from space.

speaking of elder scrolls. i used to play elder scrolls 3 morrowind, but i just stole lots of stuff and saw how much bounty i could get before guards tried to kill me. i tried to kill them, but it's hard.

Kia Ora Elle,

Les Girls All Male Revue (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj8vFTqFS7U#)

::) At times a trans-person's life can be such a drag.....

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Elle Hollywood 90210 on November 15, 2011, 11:50:26 PM
I'm only here because the boyfriend won't let me out to play. I miss the actual real world.

i'm here because i feel like it makes me smarter, but i'm finding out it's not the case. i still need something to do, because i'm bad at sleeping.

Quote from: Zenda on November 16, 2011, 01:16:23 AM
Kia Ora Elle,


::) At times a trans-person's life can be such a drag.....

Still beats being a nerd and it pays incredibly well. :)

So was that an insult?

At times a trans-person's life can be such a drag

At times everyone's life is a drag.  That doesn't explain why some people are a drag all the time.

Quote from: Elle Woods 90210 on November 15, 2011, 11:44:46 PM
And many drag queens are the gateways to transsexual women...that is the ultrafemme gay male. Drag leads to transition because there is so much alienation in the ultramasculine gay world.

They have a perspective too.

And so do fundamentalist christians.

But really, you're right.  Start off as a gay male.  Then become a drag queen.  And before you know it, you're going through transition and out comes a woman.  Every transwoman I know wants to look like a drag queen and act like an ultra-feminine gay man.  Hell, if we could just get that message out there I'll bet we can get the Republicans to support us.   

Or we could support everyones right to do what they want.

Quote from: Tracey on November 16, 2011, 09:25:05 AM
Or we could support everyones right to do what they want.

I think we already do.

So we can have a Drag Queen forum then?

No need.  Everything that would be discussed in a drag queen section can be discussed in any number of existing sections already available.  If someone wants to start a blog and focus it on drag art, then please contact one of the staff.

For those supporting a special section for drag queens, if you're thinking that section will attract drag queens to come here and do Q&A sessions with the members here, I'd think again.  I doubt that would ever work.  Drag is a very different world than the world most of us live in.  Spend a little time inside it and you can see for yourself.

And with that folks, I think we need to end this discussion.  It's run its course.  Thank you all for participating.  If you need information about drag, feel free to use Google or visit your local gay bar when they are doing drag night and talk to the performers.  They love the attention.

Thanks everyone for your input. Staff is still giving this request consideraton, we will let you know when a decision has been reached.

Zythyra - News Admin

Ok here's the deal, we already have a breakdown of areas to cover the entirety of the gender spectrum, and wherever  a drag queen fits in, they are welcome.

That being said, it is a limited interest group to say the least and is smaller than we can support individually.

I have no problems if drag queens or kings threads are started in the crossdresser forums, and if a drag queen or king wishes to declare that as their identification on their custom title that is fine as well.