Susan's Place Transgender Resources

In NY Post

http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/war_of_wood_she_men_zzjXpY7SuehoyuZm8uwZRP (http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/war_of_wood_she_men_zzjXpY7SuehoyuZm8uwZRP)

Without dwelving into the things Bono actualy said(Which I for the record don't agree with): Isn't it funny that when a male says such things as Bono said, it is considered as Strongly misogynistic", but when a female says similar things but about males, it is considered "funny things" or "tongue in cheack" said by "a strong woman".

Quote
In a blog post, Ira rails against Bono for saying that ->-bleeped-<- is "a birth defect, like a cleft palate," and that "being male and having breasts is about the worst thing I could imagine."
Ira also attacked Chaz for saying, "I never understood women before . . . but I had a tolerance for women that I don't have now . . . There is something in testosterone that makes talking and gossiping really grating."

Scratches head. The title of the story (War of H'wood she-men) was the only thing in there I found offensive.
Can understand how some people might be put off by the "tolerance for women" wording, but it seems blown out of proportion to me.

Well that article title is absolutely horrid, isn't it?  Although, I'm glad some media is at least presenting a dissenting voice from someone else in our community towards Bono's bull->-bleeped-<-.  Bono's got problems, and I don't think he's a bad guy, necessarily, I just really think he isn't together enough to be an activist at this point.  It is deep-seated misogyny, and that can happen when you've bad female role-models, or hell, if you're just bitter about being raised female.  The point is though, if you're saying things like that testosterone allows you less patience for women and their talking and gossiping, you've not yet dealt with some serious internal issues and you don't need to be spreading that kind of hateful dialogue to the media as if it's truth.  Not the PR we need, and Chaz Bono doesn't speak for me either.

I do like what was said. I just hate the title.

So much fail.
She-men? Come on.
Ira, who ADMITTED to undergoing hormonal treatment? Remins me of a woman who, after I informed her of my transness, exclaimed "wow, it takes a lot to admit that!"
so messed up.

people suck.

Though I don't agree with everything that Chaz says or how he feels about ->-bleeped-<-. I'm sure that there are some FtMs out there who do feel that he presents them very well. I think that the important thing to remember is that it takes a lot more than one person to represent an entire community. FtMs are just like any other people out there, we can't be classified by one word, one person, or one set of feelings. Regardless, I do support Chaz and I am glad that he'd out to the media because he is helping the community (And myself) gain more acceptance and understanding.

Truthfully, I didn't even know the other person was an FtM, you learn something new every day.

I like how you can only leave comments there through Facebook.  Um, NO.

Well, call me a misogynistic a$$ because since I starte T I also find gossipy yakking people annoying, more annoying than before.  I don't say anything publicly, I tune it out.  Chaz lacks a filter.  Or maybe he thinks he needs to say things, explain things, to help 'educate' but he's off base.

I don't hate Chaz.  Chaz does not speak for all trans guys.  He does not speak for me. He does, however, put ONE FACE to transsexualism.


Jay

I don't know,  Chaz just needs to make sure he's clear when he's talking about his personal reactions to hormones as opposed to making a general statement.


I mean it could well be that Chaz never liked sitting and chatting and now has the excuse not to, so he's running with it.   Or it could be that he always had little patience for women.  Tons of women I know don't like hanging out with other women because they think they gossip and bitch about every little thing.  It's not misogynistic to say so.

Chaz's problem is that he's taken on this "spokesperson role"  so he needs to treat it with more dignity.  While I disagree a tad with Stephen I think it's about time someone told Chaz that it's not ALL ABOUT YOU!!!   ;)

One of the main problems I always see within alternative communities is that whoever is the most popular or in the public eye is usually the one who of course gets the most public attention. And anything that person says or does is highly scrutinized and the public also uses that person as an example of the entire community. Without getting into a argument with anyone about how much "good" the LGBT movement does, it's reasons like this - that the most vocal are often the poorest examples of "average" - is why I never have and never want to be involved with "the community". I just want to quietly live my life, how I want to live it and I don't need to belong to a minority movement to make that happen. Some do, some don't. I'm just one of the ones who don't.

And lets face it, a lot more people know about "being trans" than they used to simply because of celebrity transsexuals and hot tv shows - however, what kind of picture does that paint for the average trans person in the eyes of someone who's just finding out about it? The person who is just being introduced to it, is being introduced to sensationalism. I really don't believe that making people aware in this way is of benefit to the community at large.

I was in the grocery line the other day and there was the National Enquirer with Chaz's photo and some headline about 4 years to live. It so happened that I chose the line with the longest delay once again and ended up standing there for about 10 minutes while 2 people in front of me had some sort of issues with gift cards and checks. Anyway, I'm casually overhearing conversations from the two people behind me, who were looking at the tabloid. One said, "That's just sick", while the other chimed in and said, "I don't even want to see that sort of thing. That's their business but it shouldn't be in the news." Their convo continued touching on topics such as, "that sort of thing goes against nature" (coming from the 1st speaker) to, "yeah but why would anyone want to do that to themselves?" (coming from the second speaker.

The majority of people out there do not accept trans. Hell they really don't even accept gay yet. So to me, public figures in the spotlight are not "educating" they're turning even more people off to the idea. And while we can read an article such as this and formulate thoughtful opinions on it, most everyone else is still going along thinking it's "sick" and "goes against nature" no matter what is said in the article.

I have a lot less tolerance for quite a few things that I never liked in the first place. Slow drivers who aren't in the right lane. Oblivious grocery shoppers who leave their freaking carts right in the middle of the aisle instead of pulling over to the side. People who want to blather about things I'm not interested in. In my experience, a lot of that kind of chatter comes from women. I supposed this explains why I can't watch Sex and the City. All that inane droning about shoes and dating drives me out of my tree.

I do still have issues with women, but I'm not a misogynist just because I'm less tolerant of "girl talk" than I used to be. On the other hand, Bono seems to make his comments in an explicitly sexist way, as if he's trying to distance himself from women as a sex--and maybe put them down a little. I've seen other trans guys do this, possibly as a way to feel more masculine. Only time will tell whether Bono will continue to do it. He might be quite embarrassed about it in a couple of years.

One thing I don't like about Bono is that he often seems to generalize his personal experiences and seems to apply them to others. He comes across as a kind of sexist ass, but he's not unusually articulate, so some of his comments might simply be phrased poorly--or they might have been taken out of context. I remember that when he was on Letterman, he made sure everyone knew that he was talking only about his own experiences. I'm pretty sure I didn't dream that up. Is it possible that the latest comments have been taken out of that context, so they seem to be more generalized than they really are?

The only thing I know about Chaz is that he came out of Cher. So the only thing that bothers me about him is that he still doesn't pass, even with the facial hair. That's not his fault, but my mom and grandma keep using him as an example of how "you always can tell."


I just realized Warren Beatty and Ned Beatty aren't the same person. I kept thinking about Deliverance.

Quote from: Sharky on November 19, 2011, 08:44:16 PMThe only thing I know about Chaz is that he came out of Cher. So the only thing that bothers me about him is that he still doesn't pass, even with the facial hair. That's not his fault, but my mom and grandma keep using him as an example of how "you always can tell."

Yet I do suspect that if Chaz looked exactly like that and was a cisguy, no one would be looking at him and saying, "doesn't he totally look like he used to be a woman?"

I just wish he would get himself in shape...call me mean....but come on!

I've asked myself if i didn't know already would I think the same, and I think I still would, unless chaz was younger. There is something that still comes off as youthful/feminine that a 40 something year old wouldn't have. Sure some people have baby faces but it just doesn't look to me like he has had normal T levels for 43 years.

Quote from: Lee11 on November 19, 2011, 09:34:08 PM
I just wish he would get himself in shape...call me mean....but come on!

That is incredibly ->-bleeped-<-ed up.

Its strange. This thread started with an article calling out a person with cissexist and misogynistic points and has turned into being cissexist and body shaming. Kudos.

I don't see why it's ->-bleeped-<-ed up. His own choices is what made him so badly out of shape. I gained a lot of fat last year, I went from a healthy muscular to obesity. I didn't wake up one day and say I want to be obese. But, I chose it everytime I shoved my unhealthy diet in my mouth and everytime I sat on my ass instead of exercising. I don't see how its different then saying you want to see an addict get clean.

You don't know about his health. There are people with disorders that make weight loss next to impossible. There are fat people with extreme eating disorders. There are thin people who eat horribly.

Why is it that fat people are the only ones shamed?

It sucks how all sects of people "need" a PR. No one can properly represent everyone's views, so it will always be futile. I'm gonna keep it short and not ramble, cuz I'm tired and not thinkin straight. (erased 3 long paragraphs of idiotic trite just now lol)

Quote from: Lee11 on November 19, 2011, 09:23:48 AM
In NY Post

http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/war_of_wood_she_men_zzjXpY7SuehoyuZm8uwZRP (http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/war_of_wood_she_men_zzjXpY7SuehoyuZm8uwZRP)

just proves that one trans cannot respect another trans convictions. And to do it in a public newspaper like this is just f***ed up.

Quote from: Annah on November 19, 2011, 10:33:00 PM
just proves that one trans cannot respect another trans convictions. And to do it in a public newspaper like this is just f***ed up.

He did it in a personal blog. The papers picked it up. He actually doesn't want to be in the media.

Um, so we now have

A guy who first came out as a lesbian
A "pregnant man"
A Feminist Gay Transman

As our three top public representations.  That's nice and sensational for the media.  Fantastic  :-\

I have PCOS and various illnesses that go along with it. I have even been diabetic when I've neglected my health. I know medical problems can make it very hard to loose weight. It can suck alot and seem very unfair. I've often wish i could just sit down and enjoy a meal like most people can. I love food and coming from an Italian family there is a big emphasis on food.

Everyone in my family except my mother is fat. My mom eats very unhealthy and often doesn't eat at all, it's really concerning how skinny she has gotten. She just had a misscarage and I think it's because she is so skinny now. I've always had the suspicion that she was anorexic. I think her hatred of food is why she hates the Italian side of the family. They are always trying to get you to eat. 

There are times where I think I'm a food addict. It is often  extremely hard for me to Resist eating something I want. In july I started getting strech marks on my stomach. The you would think permanent scarring would get me to loose weight, but it didn't. Now they have gotten a lot worse. I think my stomach hair will cover it so I'm not that bothered,  but I still really hate that they are there.

200 pounds isn't that much but im definitely fat and I have no one to blame but myself.

I have seen people be shamed for being extremely skinny. There are just way more obese people than skinny and the obese stand out More. Fat phobia certianly does exist. I know you can be healthy and have extra fat. But it is obvious chaz is at an unhealthy weight. He is fully capable of loosing it. I remember hearing him mentioning that he was loosing weight from dancing.

Quote from: J.T. on November 19, 2011, 10:48:51 PM
Um, so we now have

A guy who first came out as a lesbian
A "pregnant man"
A Feminist Gay Transman

As our three top public representations.  That's nice and sensational for the media.  Fantastic  :-\

And this goes against the testamental code of transsexual conduct how? I didn't know there was a right way or a wrong way to be transsexual.

Or is the right way: all transmen have to be masculine without ever identifying as lesbian before and a transwoman have to be feminine without ever identifying as gay before?

Quote from: Lee11 on November 19, 2011, 09:34:08 PM
I just wish he would get himself in shape...call me mean....but come on!

You're not being mean, you're being fair.

I mean hey, the way things are now, Chaz is a spokesman for people with double chins, if anything... So... if he insists on being a public figure, he should try to look a little better. We are not all like this, you know... he doesn't represent me, he doesn't represent you. He only truly represents himself and whoever looks and thinks like him.

If anyone is bothered by what i said, so what. I still stand by it. I'd prefer to have no representation at all, than "representation" of this sort, tabloid bait with unrelated psychological issues. I can represent myself very well thank you. If anyone is offended by me criticizing his weight, remember that it's Hollywood, it's not real life. It's not you that i have a problem with. You can eat all you want, eat till you fall thru the ceiling. I'd never have a problem with your appearance, it's a personal choice + biology...  But aren't people on TV supposed to all be good-looking?

Anyway, take it or leave it. I'm just speaking my mind.


-Xx


P.S> Here's an update on the topic, with a picture of Stephen.
http://www.ontheredcarpet.com/Warren-Beattys-transgender-son-Stephen-Ira-clarifies-Chaz-Bono-slam/8437820 (http://www.ontheredcarpet.com/Warren-Beattys-transgender-son-Stephen-Ira-clarifies-Chaz-Bono-slam/8437820)

Quote from: Mr. X on November 20, 2011, 01:19:31 AM
  But aren't people on TV supposed to all be good-looking?

Unfortunately many aspects of Hollywood/TV is superficial.

I have a friend who could be Chaz's double and don't even dare to call him a female.. chaz passes just fine.. not everyone has the distinct jaw lines etc etc.. many are just smooth rounded faced males

Quote from: Mr. X on November 20, 2011, 01:19:31 AM
You're not being mean, you're being fair.

I mean hey, the way things are now, Chaz is a spokesman for people with double chins, if anything... So... if he insists on being a public figure, he should try to look a little better. We are not all like this, you know... he doesn't represent me, he doesn't represent you. He only truly represents himself and whoever looks and thinks like him.

If anyone is bothered by what i said, so what. I still stand by it. I'd prefer to have no representation at all, than "representation" of this sort, tabloid bait with unrelated psychological issues. I can represent myself very well thank you. If anyone is offended by me criticizing his weight, remember that it's Hollywood, it's not real life. It's not you that i have a problem with. You can eat all you want, eat till you fall thru the ceiling. I'd never have a problem with your appearance, it's a personal choice + biology...  But aren't people on TV supposed to all be good-looking?

Anyway, take it or leave it. I'm just speaking my mind.


-Xx


Thank you for this...I was just about to pull myself out of this forum since most of my recent posts have been attacked without really thinking about what I was saying.
As Chastity, Chaz was on Celebrity Fit Club a while back too...there is no sinister metabolic reason behind his weight.

Man...I agree with Nygeel, this is pretty messed up.  So what if he's overweight?  If he were thin, never came out as a lesbian, and still made those comments, would he be any better for a "spokesperson" for trans people?  Just look at Buck Angel and how many trans people complain about him.  He "passes" well and is fit, but still says a bunch of crap.

Also, in regards to his "passing," I know several people in real life (who don't know my trans history) say that they could never believe he "used to be a woman."  Obviously he does "pass" well to some people.  And these are folks that are typically very closed-minded and conservative.

Quote from: Adio on November 20, 2011, 12:17:38 PM
Man...I agree with Nygeel, this is pretty messed up.  So what if he's overweight?  If he were thin, never came out as a lesbian, and still made those comments, would he be any better for a "spokesperson" for trans people?  Just look at Buck Angel and how many trans people complain about him.  He "passes" well and is fit, but still says a bunch of crap.

Buck Angel says more crap than Chaz. Both are poor spokespeople.

I don't really care about his weight, and I think he passes pretty well. Is it his fault that he has a roundish face? No. So why are we even talking about it? Obviously if he is overweight and there is no medical reason, then he must not have a problem with it. Why should we?

Someone is going to have a problem with any spokesperson with media attention. There will always be people with opposing views who say X person does not represent them. We can't control who our "PR" is, only the media can do that really.

Quote from: Nygeel on November 20, 2011, 12:39:46 PM
Buck Angel says more crap than Chaz. Both are poor spokespeople.

I agree. I'm saying that even if the physical things were different, it wouldn't change the fact neither are very good representatives.  Or at least, not the "ideal"--if that can ever be agreed upon.

Quote from: Logan Erik on November 20, 2011, 12:32:50 PM
Why do we give a damn about the guy's weight?

I was thinking the same thing. I guess if you are fat you're screwed as a public spokesperson for transgender people. If you feel that your transgender is like a birth defect, then you are a piss poor representative. Chaz has only spoken how he feels. He has stated numerous times this is not the same for everyone.

Hmm...I don't see very many other people grabbing the spokesperson flag but people are sure as heck quick to criticize him.

Pick up the flag, go out in the public limelight and media and face the criticizers who plasters their disagreements against you throughout the internet, magazines, and the media. Then criticize him.

QuoteHmm...I don't see very many other people grabbing the spokesperson flag but people are sure as heck quick to criticize him.

Pick up the flag, go out in the public limelight and media and face the criticizers who plasters their disagreements against you throughout the internet, magazines, and the media. Then criticize him

I agree. If you're not willing to be the one speaking up to the public than shut your mouth about who the spokesperson is. If you don't like it or agree with whats being said do something more than bitch about it on here.

Quote from: Wesley_33 on November 20, 2011, 04:19:07 PM
I agree. If you're not willing to be the one speaking up to the public than shut your mouth about who the spokesperson is. If you don't like it or agree with whats being said do something more than bitch about it on here.

I have been, thank you very much.

I don't see why his weight matters as a public figure and I didn't think that was implied.
I highly doubt anyone who isn't directly affected by trans issues gives a crap what he says anyway, or even takes the time to read and think about what he says. His magazines has floated around the break room at work, a lot of my co workers like Dancing with the Stars. I've heard them say that he doesn't pass to them. Maybe I'm not seeing recent photos, but I still don't think he does.

Than Nygeel you are already doing more than most here do. What are you doing if you don't mind me asking? Aside from veterans type stuff I'm still looking for more of an outlet to help.

I wouldn't think his weight has much of anything to do with well anything really. He's happy the way he is so let him. I don't see him as some skinny guy tho. Just wouldn't fit.

Regarding weight. I've struggled most of my life to keep weight on. Sometimes I'm skinny to an unhealthy degree. But people don't usually even notice, and when they do they don't seem to be so resentful as people are of overweight people.

I agree that obesity is a serious medical problem, but I don't really get what the big deal is.

Quote from: Wesley_33 on November 20, 2011, 04:45:12 PM
Than Nygeel you are already doing more than most here do. What are you doing if you don't mind me asking? Aside from veterans type stuff I'm still looking for more of an outlet to help.

I wouldn't think his weight has much of anything to do with well anything really. He's happy the way he is so let him. I don't see him as some skinny guy tho. Just wouldn't fit.

What I do is mostly on a state and local level. Every year I meet with my district's representatives to discuss transgender legislation. Since 2004 or 2005 I've been working on getting GENDA (gender expression non discrimination act) passed. The state Senate hasn't voted on it yet ever since it came up. I've done workshops with high schools about bullying, homophobia, transphobia, drug use, suicide, and STDs. I was part of a zine for queer youth. I did the formatting, and did a few submissions. I run a trans centered fat positive blog.

I think you get the idea. There's a mix of small stuff you can do. If you know there's legislation related to trans people that might be voted on or you want there to be a law that protects you, write your representatives. Let them know who you are and why you need that law. Create a group or a website for trans people to talk.

Yeah I'm helping a group now with trans rights with the VA. Working on dependant benifits for the trans military member. Its the same group that got the new VA directive put in place to cover us for medical treatment with the VA. I'm not cut out to be one to talk to the media. I have a nasty mouth at times haha. I'm happy to be doing what I can with this group tho. We all just need to get involved in some way or another and get things changed for the better.

Quote from: Wesley_33 on November 20, 2011, 05:25:49 PM
Yeah I'm helping a group now with trans rights with the VA. Working on dependant benifits for the trans military member. Its the same group that got the new VA directive put in place to cover us for medical treatment with the VA. I'm not cut out to be one to talk to the media. I have a nasty mouth at times haha. I'm happy to be doing what I can with this group tho. We all just need to get involved in some way or another and get things changed for the better.

I feel like many of us are unable to do much...usually because these are very personal stories being shared.
Try to work on things that are essential that should be accessible for all (ex: allowing trans women into women's shelters).

True most are personal if not we wouldn't be as passionate to work for it. I would rather work on something I feel stongly for than half hearted just for show. There are thousands of vets out there that need the care. Might not help everyone out there but for those of us who worked for these benifits we want what we earned.

Nygeel,

I saw that you run a trans, fat positive blog. Do you have a link? I'd like to see it.

Quote from: Darrin on November 20, 2011, 06:45:17 PM
Nygeel,

I saw that you run a trans, fat positive blog. Do you have a link? I'd like to see it.

I sent the link via PM. If anybody wants the link you can PM me.

Quote from: Sharky on November 20, 2011, 04:38:28 PM
I don't see why his weight matters as a public figure and I didn't think that was implied.

Correct. Not his weight per se, but appearance in general. Though losing weight will help, no doubt.

My point is, there's plenty of gorgeous gay guys in the media, and a pretty MtF on some modeling contest show, as far as i remember. Good representation for them. But who do we get?

We get Chaz.

Sure, someone could point out the "decent looking" FtMs doing indecent things, namely Kael T Block, a serial rapist, fugitive, and Buck Angel, the porn star. Blech. Luckily, they are not really on TV.

I have no problem with Chaz personally, his outlook on life, but i wonder, why do we get all of the odd ones? Why?

Except for Thomas, who had to go public as a result of his pregnancies. He's cool, he passes, he's got a normal family. A real positive example  :angel:


-Xx


P.S. To me, Chaz passes, but not in a good way. I'm gonna be blunt about it, but he looks like a guy that got somehow castrated at a fairly young age... yes, the round baby face, lack of male bone structure... the general roundness and extra pounds. And he's got that look to him that makes you feel sorry for him more than anything. Yeah, that's the kind of reactions he gets from the average person, "you poor thing, i hope nothing like this ever happens in my family"... now, that's not the kind of reaction i want. I'm a guy taking control of my life and making things right, and i don't want anyone even remotely thinking there's something to feel sorry for. I'll fight for myself when i have to, i'll stand up for myself, i'm not a wimp, not a baby girl and not anyone that needs other people's prayers. I'm FINE. Save their pity for the homeless wino at the subway, or their cousin's kid with Down's syndrome and a deformed foot. I'm fine, i'll take care of myself and prove myself if i have to. I don't whine. Despite my short stature, i'm more of the oil rigger type than the sensitive gay guy types some people expect FtMs to be.

Quote from: Mr. X on November 20, 2011, 08:00:16 PM
My point is, there's plenty of gorgeous gay guys in the media, and a pretty MtF on some modeling contest show, as far as i remember. Good representation for them. But who do we get?

We get Chaz.

The value of a person, in my opinion, is not by their looks but by their passions and convictions. I am so sorry that Chaz does not meet the qualifications of your ideal trans role model because he's not handsome enough for you.

Quote
I have no problem with Chaz personally, his outlook on life, but i wonder, why do we get all of the odd ones? Why?

Because many of us do not measure the success and outlooks of a person based on their physical characteristics only. Some of us actually look deeper than the skin to find everything about the person and what they have to offer. 

QuoteP.S. To me, Chaz passes, but not in a good way. I'm gonna be blunt about it, but he looks like a guy that got somehow castrated at a fairly young age... yes, the round baby face, lack of male bone structure... the general roundness and extra pounds.

Thank goodness no one has given you the responsibility of judging who is a good trans and who isn't based on their bone structure and facial appearance.

QuoteAnd he's got that look to him that makes you feel sorry for him more than anything. Yeah, that's the kind of reactions he gets from the average person, "you poor thing, i hope nothing like this ever happens in my family"... now, that's not the kind of reaction i want. I'm a guy taking control of my life and making things right, and i don't want anyone even remotely thinking there's something to feel sorry for. I'll fight for myself when i have to, i'll stand up for myself, i'm not a wimp, not a baby girl and not anyone that needs other people's prayers. I'm FINE. Save their pity for the homeless wino at the subway, or their cousin's kid with Down's syndrome and a deformed foot. I'm fine, i'll take care of myself and prove myself if i have to. I don't whine. Despite my short stature, i'm more of the oil rigger type than the sensitive gay guy types some people expect FtMs to be.

This has to be the most superficial and most shallow thing I have heard on these forums in a long time.

I'm sorry that your idea of a successful trans person is someone who looks like a movie star or a rock star or masculine (transman) or feminine (transwoman). Maybe you should post some pics of yourself here so we can analyze your trans superiority based on your oil rigger type as the ideal transman?

Last time I checked, a man isn't a man based on his body type.  A man is a man based on his being.

nosce te ipsum
know thyself

Quote from: Annah on November 20, 2011, 09:05:10 PM
To be honest, the only people I have seen who have put down Chaz are other transgender people and the conservation right wing political and religious agenda. Not a good mix and, somehow, I am not surprised. Some trans people just love the infighting. It's really tragic.

Well...I suppose i do lean towards conservative, though i don't share their mainstream-fundamentalist religious views, i don't go with the whole flock and don't care for Romney as a candidate. It's just so phony to me. If i had to say what i am politically, i'd identify as libertarian. I'm for less restrictive laws, less bureaucracy and for reasonable gun ownership culture/laws/regulations. I'm for self-sufficiency, but i'm also for good schools, schools that teach well enough that a person will be prepared for life, even if they decide to forgo college. But enough about politics. To each their own.

Quote from: Annah on November 20, 2011, 09:18:50 PM
The value of a person, in my opinion, is not by their looks but by their passions and convictions. I am so sorry that Chaz does not meet the qualifications of your ideal trans role model because he's not handsome enough for you.

You go from "spokesperson" to "role model". Two different things. I think he's a decent role model, but as i said, i don't like him as a spokesperson in his present state. He doesn't speak for me. He invites pity and i don't want none.

Quote from: Annah on November 20, 2011, 09:18:50 PM
Because many of us do not measure the success and outlooks of a person based on their physical characteristics only. Some of us actually look deeper than the skin to find everything about the person and what they have to offer. 

Thank goodness no one has given you the responsibility of judging who is a good trans and who isn't based on their bone structure and facial appearance.

Who is talking about good trans and bad trans? Well, i did mention it, about how the sex predator Kael is bad trans. But i never said anything about his facial structure.

As for Chaz's outlook and personality, i said i have nothing wrong with that, i can quote myself. Although, i did get to leaf thru his book once, and found it a little on the whiny, soggy side. But that's just me.

Quote from: Annah on November 20, 2011, 09:18:50 PM
This has to be the most superficial and most shallow thing I have heard on these forums in a long time.

I'm sorry that your idea of a successful trans person is someone who looks like a movie star or a rock star or masculine (transman) or feminine (transwoman).

That's my idea of a successful celebrity. Yeah. Where a rockstar looks like a rockstar, an a movie star looks like a movie star, and an athlete looks like an athlete. I think that's reasonable. But where did i say that a successful transperson has to be a celebrity? But, if i ever gave an example of a successful transman, it's up there where i wrote about Thomas Beatty, the guy from Oregon. That's my idea of everyday success.

Quote from: Annah on November 20, 2011, 09:18:50 PM
Maybe you should post some pics of yourself here so we can analyze your trans superiority based on your oil rigger type as the ideal transman?

Last time I checked, a man isn't a man based on his body type.  A man is a man based on his being.

I was referring to personality type, not build. I thought that was easy to see in context. I was trying to say that despite being a small guy (shirts size S, gloves size S, shoes size 6), i'm not a timid or sensitive character. I don't want pity, i don't even care for compassion half the time. If i have a problem, i deal with it, and i don't want to be lumped in the same group with a "spokesperson" who is more on the weepy side and gets "oh no, what a mess, poor guy" kind of reactions.


-Xx  :P

Media BS, just to get some lines to yack about...

I'm a woman and find nothing wrong with him, the rest... ? PC bull-->-bleeped-<-e, what else?

Right said Fred! :-)
Axelle

Quote from: Mr. X on November 20, 2011, 10:12:58 PM

That's my idea of a successful celebrity. Yeah. Where a rockstar looks like a rockstar, an a movie star looks like a movie star, and an athlete looks like an athlete. I think that's reasonable. But where did i say that a successful transperson has to be a celebrity? But, if i ever gave an example of a successful transman, it's up there where i wrote about Thomas Beatty, the guy from Oregon. That's my idea of everyday success.

I never stated that you said a transman had to look like a celebrity. I commented against your "ideas" of what a proper transman should look like. Because a transgender, like any other gender should not look like a specific type of "thing." Even for a spokesperson. If you don't like his message that is one thing. If you don't agree with him then you don't agree with him. Making fun of his physical stature and then saying he doesn't fit the mold of a transgender man is pretty shallow.

Trans people have to deal with that stuff from an ignorant public who knows little about transgender people. I mentioned it's tragic when another trans person stoops to that level.

QuoteI was referring to personality type, not build.

I am not replying to what you think about his personality type. I am responding to the way you put down his physical appearance as a trans man. This is exactly what you said:

he looks like a guy that got somehow castrated at a fairly young age... yes, the round baby face, lack of male bone structure... the general roundness and extra pounds.

And he's got that look to him that makes you feel sorry for him more than anything.

Those statements do not speak of his personality. It speaks of your opinions on his physical attributes and you summed it up with now, that's not the kind of reaction i want

So, if you were commenting against the things he said versus his looks, you certainly did not come across that way.

Spokesperson = what we want the rednecks to see on the tabloid covers in the checkout lines so they don't consider us an abomination.  The better looking the guy, the better.

Role model = who inspires *us*.

It's not about *our* shallowness.  It's about the shallowness of the people we already *know* to be shallow, because they're judging us and finding us to not meet their standards of socially acceptable.  The spokesperson you, as a community, want makes you palatable to the ignorant masses, while not betraying too many of your principles in the process.

Chaz, regardless of how good a role model he is to individuals, isn't really the best in that department, as you can tell by judging random people outside the community's reactions.  Every time he makes news, the reactions from even my very gay-friendly mother make me go "Nope, *this* isn't a good week for her and I to have a little chat, either...".

Quote from: Kareil on November 20, 2011, 10:51:10 PM
It's not about *our* shallowness.  It's about the shallowness of the people we already *know* to be shallow, because they're judging us and finding us to not meet their standards of socially acceptable.  The spokesperson you, as a community, want makes you palatable to the ignorant masses, while not betraying too many of your principles in the process.

At the point that we're picking on someone for their weight, it most certainly is about "*our* shallowness".

Quote from: Annah on November 20, 2011, 10:35:39 PM
I never stated that you said a transman had to look like a celebrity. I commented against your "ideas" of what a proper transman should look like. Because a transgender, like any other gender should not look like a specific type of "thing." Even for a spokesperson. If you don't like his message that is one thing. If you don't agree with him then you don't agree with him. Making fun of his physical stature and then saying he doesn't fit the mold of a transgender man is pretty shallow.

Trans people have to deal with that stuff from an ignorant public who knows little about transgender people. I mentioned it's tragic when another trans person stoops to that level.

I am not replying to what you think about his personality type. I am responding to the way you put down his physical appearance as a trans man. This is exactly what you said:

he looks like a guy that got somehow castrated at a fairly young age... yes, the round baby face, lack of male bone structure... the general roundness and extra pounds.

And he's got that look to him that makes you feel sorry for him more than anything.

Those statements do not speak of his personality. It speaks of your opinions on his physical attributes and you summed it up with now, that's not the kind of reaction i want

So, if you were commenting against the things he said versus his looks, you certainly did not come across that way.

All i was saying, was everyone else gets to have a celebrity spokesperson that measures up to the "celebrity" level, we - transmen, don't. Looks matter when it's someone who didn't rise from being an "everyman activist", but was a minor celebrity all along. If Chaz were from Kansas or someplace out of the way, i'd never complain about his looks, because he's just an activist. But the way it is now, he doesn't compare well to other social minority celebrity spokespeople. It's within his power to measure up. He doesn't have bad genes, it just takes work. If he lost some weight, his face would start to look normal, and he would gain some confidence. I mean hell, his own mother has made workout videos, my Mom has Cher's exercise tape that she bought like 15 years ago maybe.... maybe it's even older....

The gays have fashionable Adam Lambert (not really an activist, but definitely in the limelight) and we have a "pathetic balloon boy" (not my words, but said by one of my cis-male friends)... it makes gays look fashionable and transmen get a mid-life crisis guy that makes us all look like we need counseling. I mean, is he really the best we have?

When i said i was referring to personality type and not build, i was speaking for myself. That the "oil rigger" comment pertains to my personality and not my body shape. I look positively scrawny right now, since i have to diet to keep the moobs and "hips" from being too obvious. I'm pre-T.


-Xx

Quote from: Kareil on November 20, 2011, 10:51:10 PM
Spokesperson = what we want the rednecks to see on the tabloid covers in the checkout lines so they don't consider us an abomination.  The better looking the guy, the better.

Role model = who inspires *us*.

It's not about *our* shallowness.  It's about the shallowness of the people we already *know* to be shallow, because they're judging us and finding us to not meet their standards of socially acceptable.  The spokesperson you, as a community, want makes you palatable to the ignorant masses, while not betraying too many of your principles in the process.

Chaz, regardless of how good a role model he is to individuals, isn't really the best in that department, as you can tell by judging random people outside the community's reactions.  Every time he makes news, the reactions from even my very gay-friendly mother make me go "Nope, *this* isn't a good week for her and I to have a little chat, either...".

This^


-Xx  ;)

Quote from: Mr. X on November 20, 2011, 01:19:31 AMI mean hey, the way things are now, Chaz is a spokesman for people with double chins, if anything... So... if he insists on being a public figure, he should try to look a little better. We are not all like this, you know... he doesn't represent me, he doesn't represent you. He only truly represents himself and whoever looks and thinks like him.

If anyone is bothered by what i said, so what. I still stand by it. I'd prefer to have no representation at all, than "representation" of this sort, tabloid bait with unrelated psychological issues. I can represent myself very well thank you. If anyone is offended by me criticizing his weight, remember that it's Hollywood, it's not real life. It's not you that i have a problem with. You can eat all you want, eat till you fall thru the ceiling. I'd never have a problem with your appearance, it's a personal choice + biology...  But aren't people on TV supposed to all be good-looking?

Um, I highly doubt that.  If I had to choose between Chaz Bono or no one, I'd pick Chaz Bono hands down.  As much as you want to nit pick about how Chaz doesn't live up to your perfect image of the ideal PR person, he at least is bringing awareness to ->-bleeped-<-.  It's still a step in the right direction.  Imagine how horrible things would be if we had no trans awareness?  Chaz bring awareness and with awareness comes acceptance. 

Sure he may not be perfect.  But he does represent himself and others like him very well.  So what we need is not to get rid of him as a PR person, but to get even  more diverse FTM transgenders to represent us.  And I think that will happen in time.

From what i see, some people here are LBGT/community oriented. I'm not, i'm more of the lone wolf type, so my opinion may differ. I'm mostly here for (medical) research, not psychological support.

Plus, i think for a lot of parents the image of Chaz is a scarecrow that they don't want their kid to turn into. Uneducated people form their opinions based on what they see and feel when they look at him, rather than on what he says. They don't want to look him up and figure out what kind of person he is. One look at a magazine cover is enough.


-Xx

Quote from: Mr. X on November 20, 2011, 11:47:09 PM
From what i see, some people here are LBGT/community oriented. I'm not, i'm more of the lone wolf type, so my opinion may differ. I'm mostly here for (medical) research, not psychological support.

Plus, i think for a lot of parents the image of Chaz is a scarecrow that they don't want their kid to turn into. Uneducated people form their opinions based on what they see and feel when they look at him, rather than on what he says. They don't want to look him up and figure out what kind of person he is. One look at a magazine cover is enough.


-Xx

If you are here purely for medical research then why the need to trash the guy's physical appearance? Chaz should not even be of any concern for you to even post about him if all you are interested in is Medical Research.

Uneducated people will base their opinions on how Chaz looks? Xx, you are doing just that when you criticize his looks.

I've been intimately involved in the conservative religious communities, the Republican right wing communities, and counseled children for over ten years, and currently assisting a church and helping as a Chaplain in a Nursing facility in December. I have to say, that in all my experiences, the trans community complaining about self issues and ripping each other apart because someone doesn't "fit the part" or "agreed with another viewpoints" is probably a more constant image than any other group of people I have ever witnessed in my 37 years of existence. And I am not remotely exaggerating.

Worse than a bunch of old people duking it out over the last checker chip at Shady Acres retirement homes.

Armchair ethicists. I love em. It's easy to sit in a chair and type out how much someone dislikes another. It's much harder to walk alongside someone in a common goal of gender equality and respect one another despite differences.

Quote from: Mr. X on November 20, 2011, 11:47:09 PMPlus, i think for a lot of parents the image of Chaz is a scarecrow that they don't want their kid to turn into. Uneducated people form their opinions based on what they see and feel when they look at him, rather than on what he says. They don't want to look him up and figure out what kind of person he is. One look at a magazine cover is enough.

I can understand this a little.  Because at least with my family, Chaz Bono is ALL they know about trans people.  Actually my Uncle told me that testosterone caused Chaz to gain all that weight, he was trying to caution me about starting testosterone.  I mean, he was completely wrong, Chaz Bono was overweight before he came out as trans. 

But I would still have to say that my family knowing about trans people because of Chaz Bono is better than them not knowing at all.   I never would have come out to them if it weren't for Chaz.  My aunt and uncle watched him on Oprah, and they were able to understand a little bit.  and once I realized they didn't hate trans people by the way they spoke of him, I came out to them as well.  Who knows what they would think of me if they knew nothing about trans people until I came out to them.

I feel like Chaz bono just wants to help people in his own way.  And I would like to say thank you to Chaz bono for going on Oprah and educating my family a little.  It made things easier for me.  And that's all Chaz Bono wanted to do.

He doesn't want to be the sole representative of the trans community.

Quote from: Annah on November 21, 2011, 12:02:15 AM
If you are here purely for medical research then why the need to trash the guy's physical appearance? Chaz should not even be of any concern for you to even post about him if all you are interested in is Medical Research.

Once again, the misunderstanding is in your head. "Purely" ≠ "mostly". I said mostly. Half the time i'm here, i dig up two and half year old threads, though i never reply to them. If i did, i would be a Thread Necromancer!  ;D

Quote from: Annah on November 21, 2011, 12:02:15 AM
Uneducated people will base their opinions on how Chaz looks? Xx, you are doing just that when you criticize his looks.

I've been intimately involved in the conservative religious communities, the Republican right wing communities, and counseled children for over ten years, and currently assisting a church and helping as a Chaplain in a Nursing facility in December. I have to say, that in all my experiences, the trans community complaining about self issues and ripping each other apart because someone doesn't "fit the part" or "agreed with another viewpoints" is probably a more constant image than any other group of people I have ever witnessed in my 37 years of existence. And I am not remotely exaggerating.

Worse than a bunch of old people duking it out over the last checker chip at Shady Acres retirement homes.

Armchair ethicists. I love em. It's easy to sit in a chair and type out how much someone dislikes another. It's much harder to walk alongside someone in a common goal of gender equality and respect one another despite differences.

Like i said, i'm the lone wolf kind of person, i don't walk at pride events, i don't participate in TG/TS meets, you won't see me out there because i don't relish being a person with some strange, publicly identifiable condition. I just am. I don't look for someone to cry on their shoulder, and on the same note, don't like to be mistaken for someone that does.

Transpeople come from all walks of life, and it's no surprise that we don't agree. But it's fine by me. I don't want to be you, and don't want you to be me. Your circle of friends is not like my friends, and the next person is completely different than either of us. And it's life   8)

I'll say it the 4th time, i don't like Chaz to be the spokesman. I don't like people to compare me to him before they figure out that i'm not at all like him. For me personally, his "representation" is worse than no representation. End of story.


-Xx

Quote from: JohnAlex on November 21, 2011, 01:04:04 AM
I feel like Chaz bono just wants to help people in his own way.  And I would like to say thank you to Chaz bono for going on Oprah and educating my family a little.  It made things easier for me.  And that's all Chaz Bono wanted to do.

He doesn't want to be the sole representative of the trans community.

That's cool :)

A positive thing... and i'm glad he's aware that everyone's experience is different. I wish someone else would come along, so he won't have 100% of the spotlight. That way everyone wins, we can all agree on that.


-Xx :)

Quote from: Caseyy on November 21, 2011, 04:28:05 AM
omg I've been told that too! That I'll get really fat if I start T, haha. It's very funny. My grandpa also noticed that my lesbian cousin is fat and he was like "ohhh, so all lesbians are fat, now it makes sense that you gained some weight..." :| Seriously, crazyass people.

Lolyall that's hilarious. People are funny.

For those who are interested...the Oprah Winfrey Network is showing part two of Chaz's transition documentary tomorow (Sunday 27 Nov) night....

I thought he was getting his own show on OWN?

turns out its a repeat showing tomorrow night...but there is a new one in the pipeline