Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Kia Ora,

::) Some members started 'out' gay[well at least thinking they were gay and 'acting' the part]...But then all of a sudden they realised they were more than just  effeminate 'gay' males who like to wear women's clothing...

::) On the other hand it's also quite possible some deeply 'closeted' gay-people are so internally homophobic phobic due to social/family/friends/community pressure to conform to the norm  :icon_ashamed: [especially if one happens to live in a religious community where homosexuality has been frown upon for many years] that the stigma of coming out 'gay' is too much to bear, they feel that being seen as a female would be more appropriate and more acceptable in a heteronormative society/community...So they go down the transition route including HRT and  'nip and tuck' only to find later down the track[when the mixture of euphoria   :icon_boogy: and confusion  :icon_confused: fades], they had make an horrible mistake, their core psycho-sexual identity[the one that counts] was NOT female.... :icon_yikes:

::) It can happen you know....................And I wouldn't wish it upon anybody......

::) So are you sure of who you are ?

::) Just some food for thought !

Metta Zenda :)

Hmmm... and what if trans lesbians are just heterosexual men in deep denial?  :-\

In other words, in before the thread lock  :D

This reminds me of the allegations regarding homosexuals up to the 60s. That basically, they were lonely, couldn't meet anyone of the opposite sex and resorted to what they could.

They understand members of their own sex better because that is all they know.

That they, especially male homosexuals, will do it with anyone or anything. That they have a Freudian bottom fixation.

This was backed by claims that most people in prisons, mental hospitals and similar institutions have homosexual relations with each other. Though no actual evidence was offered. (I once asked if that also applied to men on ships in the navy. But then I always did live dangerously).

I was somewhat disturbed recently to note that Julie Bindel claims that being gay is a choice. Disturbed because she used it to justify her strange negativity toward men.

The question surely is, how much control should society exercise over other people's bodies?

Should society legislate on hair style, for example? Or clothes? Should tatoos be banned, or earings? Do any of us need to justify our decisions at all?

If I or anyone chooses a surgical procedure, on our own body, with the express intention of altering our relationship with the rest of society, do we seriously need to justify that?

To be quite blunt, I gave this male-on-male homosexual thing my first submissive try at about 11 or 12 and it left me as disinterested as it left me during a more recent situation.

It leaves me completely cold - does that mean I'm therefore in hyper-denial?

Good Lord, I was in denial about being of female brain gender, for very long and have SOME idea about denial in this area.

If I'm a ~ 70% lesbian and ~ 30% hetero female I actually think I'm in PERFECTLY good company with loads of natal females.
No need to further analyse this and get our knickers into yet one more twist.

Just thinking,
Axélle

Kia Ora Spacial,

::) I'm sorry if you took this the wrong way however it was not meant as a judgement question on whether or not a person as a right to alter their body...It's about whether a person is 'sure' about their feelings when doing so....

::) Denial due to pressure from outside sources can greatly impact a person's judgement, especially if they live in an environment where 'homosexuality' is still frowned upon, and from a young age they had/have been told it's sinful/wicked and one will burn in hell etc...Growing up in this type of environment[one where the heteronormative mind set is strongly promoted] is bound to have some impact upon an already 'confused/questioning' person's somewhat fragile mind...

::) The stigma attached to 'homosexuality' is alive and well even in this forum... No doubt there are some members who 'fear' being seen as 'gay' and not just it being a case of 'mistaken' identity ["oh you're just gay" so to speak and then not taking the person's 'true' trans identity seriously], but for those still questioning/unsure about their feelings/identity it's all the 'religious' baggage that could come with such an  allegation ..

::) Pretty's comment about this thread being 'lock' would be an indication of to what extent 'homosexuality' still sits uncomfortably with some...

::) My question is a simple 'straight' forward[excuse the pun] one...However it does require some 'deep' soul searching [if one believes in a soul that is]...

::) "Are you sure of who you are ?" [Or are you trying to conform to the 'heteronormative' norm ?]

::) Nothing more nothing less, so I hope the 'readers' don't take offence nor go on the defensive by attempting to read more into it...It's just to make the reader[whose still questioning their true feelings] think more deeply before committing to what many believe to be irreversible life changing procedures...

::) Being 'happy and content' is what life is all about !

Metta Zenda :)

So, yeah, being bi (or pan or whatever), my sexual orientation can't really be considered anything different with a change of genders.  I'd have to be in denial about being a little more straight-ish?

meh, in my opinion it is much easier in today's society to be a gay male than a transgender female.

So I think the argument that we are gay men in deep denial is a mute point as it is much easier (in terms of transitioning, medical process, social stigma) for someone to be gay than transgender.

Quote from: Annah on December 07, 2011, 12:29:54 PM
meh, in my opinion it is much easier in today's society to be a gay male than a transgender female.

So I think the argument that we are gay men in deep denial is a mute point as it is much easier (in terms of transitioning, medical process, social stigma) for someone to be gay than transgender.

Kia Ora Annah,

::) I'm not quite sure who is meant to be arguing this, I for one am not...But when you say in this day and age it's much easier to be 'gay', it's true for those living in a more liberal environment, but sadly not all environments are so liberal and from what I gather on this forum some members still live in a deeply homophobic community environment...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on December 07, 2011, 12:17:46 PM
Kia Ora Spacial,

::) I'm sorry if you took this the wrong way however it was not meant as a judgement question on whether or not a person as a right to alter their body...It's about whether a person is 'sure' about their feelings when doing so....

::) Denial due to pressure from outside sources can greatly impact a person's judgement, especially if they live in an environment where 'homosexuality' is still frowned upon, and from a young age they had/have been told it's sinful/wicked and one will burn in hell etc...Growing up in this type of environment[one where the heteronormative mind set is strongly promoted] is bound to have some impact upon an already 'confused/questioning' person's somewhat fragile mind...

::) The stigma attached to 'homosexuality' is alive and well even in this forum... No doubt there are some members who 'fear' being seen as 'gay' and not just it being a case of 'mistaken' identity ["oh you're just gay" so to speak and then not taking the person's 'true' trans identity seriously], but for those still questioning/unsure about their feelings/identity it's all the 'religious' baggage that could come with such an  allegation ..

::) Pretty's comment about this thread being 'lock' would be an indication of to what extent 'homosexuality' still sits uncomfortably with some...

::) My question is a simple 'straight' forward[excuse the pun] one...However it does require some 'deep' soul searching [if one believes in a soul that is]...

::) "Are you sure of who you are ?" [Or are you trying to conform to the 'heteronormative' norm ?]

::) Nothing more nothing less, so I hope the 'readers' don't take offence nor go on the defensive by attempting to read more into it...It's just to make the reader[whose still questioning their true feelings] think more deeply before committing to what many believe to be irreversible life changing procedures...

::) Being 'happy and content' is what life is all about !

Metta Zenda :)

Sure, it can happen. An extreme but nonetheless good example of that, would be places such as Iran, where apparently 45% of those having SRS are not transsexual, but have SRS only to avoid Cultural discrimination and even death sentences.
I also believe that non-transsexual transitioners are not unusual at all in, for instance, Thailand, although actual regret, atleast seemingly, appears to be considerably more rare there than in the West World, although they ofcourse do exist there aswell. It would be illogical to believe otherwise.
Perhaps their Cultural filosophy is an important key factor in that aspect(For less regret), as they hold the Cultural view that if someone is feminine, than that person are- regardles of birth-assigned sex- naturally meant to be a woman, and if someone is masculine, than that is a man, regardless of biological gender.
So perhaps non-transsexual yet non-regretting Thai-transitioners holding this Cultural view simply have another concept of what a "True transsexual" are and what a male and a female are, hence resulting in few regretters statistically speaking, despite many non-transsexual transitioners.

Regarding regretters in the West World, their seem to be a good number of them in comparision, although one must also remember that the number that turn out happy, are in clear majority.

The reason for this differrence, if there truly are a difference, one can only speculate about, but it is not unlikely at all that Cultural view may be a big key factor here aswell, while another factor ofcourse indeniably are that there are nowadays a growing awareness of more variations in gender than only male and female, hence transitioners that transitioned years or decades ago because they were in actuality, perhaps, extreme ->-bleeped-<-s but transitioned because they could see no other way to express their constant feminity, or androgynes that transitioned for the same reason, but later on found out that now when it is considered okay to express gender identity in other ways too, they became depressed as they did not have that awareness from the start but now wish that they did. And so on.

I do know that you foremostly referred to transitioners in the West world that denies themselves regardless of legal pressures, but I decided to stretch the answer a bit more anyways. :)

Quote from: Bishounen on December 07, 2011, 12:46:13 PM


I do know that you foremostly referred to transitioners in the West world that denies themselves regardless of legal pressures, but I decided to stretch the answer a bit more anyways. :)

Kia Ora B,

::) No by all means stretch your answer as much as it will go  ;) You make a good point when referring to Iran...

Metta Zenda :)   

Quote from: Zenda on December 07, 2011, 12:17:46 PM
::) Pretty's comment about this thread being 'lock' would be an indication of to what extent 'homosexuality' still sits uncomfortably with some...

No, I was saying the thread would be locked because you are suggesting that maybe perfectly normal, straight transwomen are just gay males in denial.

If someone suggested that trans lesbians were just straight males everyone would freak out.

But then, straight transwomen are a small minority here ::)

Quote from: pretty on December 07, 2011, 01:18:21 PM
No, I was saying the thread would be locked because you are suggesting that maybe perfectly normal, straight transwomen are just gay males in denial.

FYI, topics aren't locked because of people having differing opinions, they're usually locked because people have expressed them in an antagonistic or insulting manner towards others.

News Admin

Quote from: Zythyra on December 07, 2011, 01:24:35 PM
FYI, topics aren't locked because of people having differing opinions, they're usually locked because people have expressed them in an antagonistic or insulting manner towards others.

News Admin

You don't think asking transwomen if they're not really just a man in denial is antagonistic or insulting? When it is presented as a direct question to those people it's an insinuation, not an expression of opinion. I'm willing to bet the only reason anyone would put up with this thread is because everyone is lesbian and it doesn't apply to them so suddenly they don't mind.

But whatever lol, carry on  ::)

Quote from: pretty on December 07, 2011, 01:18:21 PM
No, I was saying the thread would be locked because you are suggesting that maybe perfectly normal, straight transwomen are just gay males in denial.

If someone suggested that trans lesbians were just straight males everyone would freak out.

But then, straight transwomen are a small minority here ::)

I do see your concern, however that was not the impression I personally got from her question, but rather, if there are some transitioners that in reality are gay people in denial.

Personally, I know for a fact that there are a good number of non-transsexual transitioners, but whether there are actual cis-gendered homosexuals that rather transition than live as gay, I find to be quite an interesting question.

I suppose that if there are people that refuse to entertain the idea that they might be transsexual and thus convinces themselves that they are "just gay", then there should also be people that are the other way around, too.

Although I tend to believe that they are not too many, if we are talking the West World, as I believe that you need to have atleast a transgendered corn within yourself to actually take the step to transition by own free will.

Hi Zenda.

You didn't need to apologise. I took no offense at your question and understood it well. I do tend to be rather to the point sometimes. I hate having to walk on glass when discussing. But certainly never intend to be rude.

I am sure there are some of those around. We'll likely never know how many, although I would hope its a very small minority. Also, I have a feeling most of them would never come out and say it or say they regret going through all that only to find out it was a huge mistake. 

But I don't think it should reflect on the community as a whole, although, it seems a few radical groups would like to think it does.

It does bring to mind an old "Taxi Cab Confessions" show on HBO that had an episode where a trans woman did claim that it was basically pushed on her by her parents and that she would have preferred just to be a flamboyant gay man rather than have the whole "sex-change" thing. Kind of made me sad for her.

Quote from: Zenda on December 07, 2011, 12:55:25 AM
Kia Ora,

::) Some members started 'out' gay[well at least thinking they were gay and 'acting' the part]...But then all of a sudden they realised they were more than just  effeminate 'gay' males who like to wear women's clothing...

What are you trying to say about some of us here?

I see gay and woman as a relative thing. I am in essence a gay male and a transsexual woman. I can't deny what I was born, acknowledging it has helped me and the people around me become more mentally adjusted. I can't change what I was born, nor due to I expect society to accomadate what I wasn't.

I think a lot of transsexual woman may be gay men in deep denial. I mean they look up with other transsexual women... No Matter what anyone says, that person still has male experiences and male upbringing.

Quote from: Zenda on December 07, 2011, 12:55:25 AM
Kia Ora,

::) Some members started 'out' gay[well at least thinking they were gay and 'acting' the part]...But then all of a sudden they realised they were more than just  effeminate 'gay' males who like to wear women's clothing...

::) On the other hand it's also quite possible some deeply 'closeted' gay-people are so internally homophobic phobic due to social/family/friends/community pressure to conform to the norm  :icon_ashamed: [especially if one happens to live in a religious community where homosexuality has been frown upon for many years] that the stigma of coming out 'gay' is too much to bear, they feel that being seen as a female would be more appropriate and more acceptable in a heteronormative society/community...So they go down the transition route including HRT and  'nip and tuck' only to find later down the track[when the mixture of euphoria   :icon_boogy: and confusion  :icon_confused: fades], they had make an horrible mistake, their core psycho-sexual identity[the one that counts] was NOT female.... :icon_yikes:

::) It can happen you know....................And I wouldn't wish it upon anybody......

::) So are you sure of who you are ?

::) Just some food for thought !

Metta Zenda :)

All I know is that I have always been a female, and that I have always been sexually and emotionally attracted to females.

How about you ? Are you a closeted gay in deep denial ? Are you sure you know who you are ?

Quote from: pretty on December 07, 2011, 01:36:54 PM
You don't think asking transwomen if they're not really just a man in denial is antagonistic or insulting? When it is presented as a direct question to those people it's an insinuation, not an expression of opinion. I'm willing to bet the only reason anyone would put up with this thread is because everyone is lesbian and it doesn't apply to them so suddenly they don't mind.

But whatever lol, carry on  ::)

you totally took the thread out of context. Zenda wasn't aimed at insulting anyone. Don't take it personally as she wasn't out to get you

I would agree that "some" Transwomen may be gay men in denial...however during the process of therapy, self-examination, etc (after all, going the trans route is a substantial change of life! More so than being gay, imho) one would at least consider that possibility.

If they didn't, I'd think they didn't look deep enough, whether or not they're happy with transition. I know in my case, I first looked at "well, maybe I'm gay and don't know it"...during that process (which included meeting with gay men-not for sex, but for conversation about me and orientation) is when I was told that I was "probably" trans, but definitely not gay.

(For the record, I consider myself bi--90% for women, 10% for men)

With a due respect to all, to me is inconceivable the notion that an homosexual male, will resort to fudging his gender identity to disguise his homosexual orientation.

 
  Lol isn't this baileys theory that all homosexual transwomen are really just gay males in denial?

  I think some people look way to much into the whole sexual aspect of being trans, me i just go with how i feel simple as that.

Zenda means well enough but there is a cultural disconect she has with english. I have tried to give her some pointers into being more politic with her questions but the language disconect seems to prevent true understanding.

Anyways...she doesn't mean to piss us off, she just does.
;)

If I am just a gay man in deep denial then I am one seriously confussed and mixed up puppy. I like girls....
(ok ok I do like some guys, but not enough to keep one, sex is as far as I can deal with a man)

What more can one say to such a question?
Have not most of us been through exhaustive amounts of therapy just to rule out such a situation?
Goddess knows I did.
If my therapist, my spouse and I missed that one after a year and a half of bi monthly therapy, then I guess I am just plain screwed...

8)

Kia Ora folks,

::) Thanks for your inputs so far[and for being civil well at least some have tried to be  ;)] ...At times I also have the habit of reading more into what's been written than what was intended by the poster, it's just at times when reading the written word and not being able to see facial expressions, body language, etc it can make for hard work getting the real meaning...

Meanwhile back to topic.....

::) I have a close friend who started out in the gay community, in 'drag' a lot of the time, but then at 17 she started to live full time as a female without HRT...I think she started HRT  around '10' years after she went full time...

::) She ended up having her surgery 6 months before me, however she was somewhat pissed off with the psycho-surgical team's counselor she saw because she had to attend a couple of sessions with her fiancé [she's now happily married]. She felt the counselor wanted to find out if her [now] husband was 'gay' and no doubt if this was the case [which fortunately for her it was not] it's more than likely she would not have been accepted for government funded surgery, as she would have presented a high risk of possible 'regrets' causing bad publicity if she did later regretted it and went public like some do...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Jen61 on December 07, 2011, 09:12:18 PM
With a due respect to all, to me is inconceivable the notion that an homosexual male, will resort to fudging his gender identity to disguise his homosexual orientation.

Kia Ora Jen,

::) As hard as it might be for you to comprehend, it happens...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Jen61 on December 07, 2011, 09:12:18 PM
With a due respect to all, to me is inconceivable the notion that an homosexual male, will resort to fudging his gender identity to disguise his homosexual orientation.

It doesn't really disguise anything...If anything, it makes a homosexual male GAYER.

To quote my friend Adam, "Hun, you were so gay you became a girl!!"

Quote from: Jen61 on December 07, 2011, 07:53:35 PM


How about you ? Are you a closeted gay in deep denial ? Are you sure you know who you are ?

Kia Ora Jen,

::) I'm just a bi-romantic asexual 'female' who just so happens to be comfortable in her new skin...For me to be a closeted 'gay' in denial, would have served no purpose whatsoever, I have supportive[open minded] children, family members, and friends, I live in a community with a high % of gays[both male and females] along with a very accepting straight population...Like many here at first[many moons ago] I thought I might be gay, but then that idea quickly dissolved on it own accord....

::) However if you are talking in a philosophical sense then 'I' am just a combination of the five aggregates=form-sensation-perception-mental formation-consciousness working together to give a false sense of a permanent  'self'...So yes I do know for sure... [but that's not what you are really referring to is it ?  ;)]

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: cynthialee on December 07, 2011, 09:46:01 PM
Zenda means well enough but there is a cultural disconect she has with english. I have tried to give her some pointers into being more politic with her questions but the language disconect seems to prevent true understanding.

Anyways...she doesn't mean to piss us off, she just does.
;)

If I am just a gay man in deep denial then I am one seriously confussed and mixed up puppy. I like girls....
(ok ok I do like some guys, but not enough to keep one, sex is as far as I can deal with a man)

What more can one say to such a question?
Have not most of us been through exhaustive amounts of therapy just to rule out such a situation?
Goddess knows I did.
If my therapist, my spouse and I missed that one after a year and a half of bi monthly therapy, then I guess I am just plain screwed...

8)

Thanks CL,

::) That's very noble of you to put in your two cents worth...I'm humbled by your concern...

::) However not everyone goes through such intense therapy session as yourself Cynthia...But I guess if a gender therapist feels the need to keep seeing a client for a long period of time. they have their reasons [ making a bit of extra cash might be a factor along with genuine concern]...

::) I'm happy to see you turned out alright...And that it was money well spent...[ *Well I hope it was money well spent for your sake *  ;) ] 

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 07, 2011, 02:55:03 PM
What are you trying to say about some of us here?

Kia Ora M,

::) I'm not trying to say anything about you 'personally', just some observations and facts about people who want to or have transitioned and their motive behind it...

::) However when it comes to "was transitioning the right thing to do ?"[for the straight, gay, bi, asexual, questioning transitioner]  only time will tell for some...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Jen61 on December 07, 2011, 09:12:18 PM
With a due respect to all, to me is inconceivable the notion that an homosexual male, will resort to fudging his gender identity to disguise his homosexual orientation.

Well put Jen, thank you.
Then to put the cherry on top to have SRS - just to fudge that you're gay????!??? Hello?!

AND!... have gone through at least a year of gate-keeping, shrinking, counselling, therapy?

Eh, you gotta be SOOO messed up for good not even you grandma would figure you out, never mind anyone else including yourself :-)

But as always YMMV, and the exception, will yet again confirm the rule, um.

Axélle
PS: Woopsy... I am gay, like in being a lesbian. So in this instance I ALWAYS been a gay female in a pseudo-gay relationship with a lot of females... Maybe that is the correct answer?

Kia Ora,

::) Just to point out the obvious[well obvious only to some so it would seem]  a gate keepers job is not an easy one[as my gate keeping friend once told me]...

::) There are always those who slip through the gate [just like how some terrorists slip through a porous boarder] ..They are well versed in what the gate keeper wants to hear and especially nowadays where there's untold amounts of life stories on the net and other little snippets of camouflage one can find and adapt, so has to look and sound convincing[possibly even fooling oneself]...

::) If this thread has made some[even non members who might read it] think a bit deeper about their motive behind having major life changing surgery-then it's served its purpose....

::) After all you DO want to be happy in life don't you ? And jumping out of the frying pan into the fire is NOT going to make you happy...

::) However after all is said and done, if you are totally convinced transition[with or without surgery] is right for you, go for it, and I wish you all the happiness you deserve and I truly do mean this....

Metta Zenda :)

Phew and Wow I made it through the gauntlet =no 'pack attack' but it was touch and go for a while   ;) ;D
       

Quote from: pretty on December 07, 2011, 01:36:54 PM
You don't think asking transwomen if they're not really just a man in denial is antagonistic or insulting? When it is presented as a direct question to those people it's an insinuation, not an expression of opinion. I'm willing to bet the only reason anyone would put up with this thread is because everyone is lesbian and it doesn't apply to them so suddenly they don't mind.

But whatever lol, carry on  ::)

Kia Ora Pretty,

::) Sadly you have read more into it than what was meant and have taken it to heart...Might I suggest you re-read the post...It's not about 'you' unless you see yourself in how I described a deeply closeted in denial 'gay' person...

::) If this doesn't fit who you are, then what's the problem ? I could not make you[nor any other member] into a gay male even if I tried... One has to be 'wired' that way at birth...And I'm not 'god' although at times I wished I was... ;)  ;D  [I'm just joking in case you didn't know]...

Metta Zenda :) 

I thought I could be a gay guy in order to avoid transition.. Guess what? Didn't work for me.. Most gay guys who got to know me would realise I wasn't a gay guy.. In fact, in the end, it was a gay guy being a little blunt with who he saw when we met that I was finally forced to face up to the truth about who I was.. And while he was rude and somewhat cruel about it, I actually thank him for saying what he did..

HRT would sort this out fairly quickly I think.  If you are TS then you feel better, but apparently if your brain is not meant to run on it you feel really edgy and uncomfortable all the time.  In the days when it was a choice between jail or HRT for gays, choosing hormones caused a lot to suicide.  Alan Turing being a notable case.

Karen.

Intersting replays and opinions. I have my views which are colored by my professional activities. As such I could not see what the connection between my gender identity and my sexual orientation are (or were). The few times that the issue was brought by counselors, physicians, or other concerned individuals, my standard postion was: "Oh, I am not confused or unhappy about my sexual orientation; and what ever it is it has no bearing in my gender identity."

In my case my gender identity has no bearing  in anything except on my self perception of my gender and who I am. I am a female scientist, scholar, American, Dutch-decendant, martial artist, former bike racer, and last but not least a father by the grace of God.

I do what I want without letting the perceptions of femininity of masculinity  affect my decisions. I am perfectly comfortable "dolling up' at a slumber part, or racing the the dirt bike with the boys. It is me, the same person, just another female.

My sex life is but a small yet comforting and pleasurable part of my life, an spiritual nexus to my partner; as such just her and mine bussines

Quote from: Zenda on December 07, 2011, 10:42:12 PM
::) However not everyone goes through such intense therapy session as yourself Cynthia...But I guess if a gender therapist feels the need to keep seeing a client for a long period of time. they have their reasons [ making a bit of extra cash might be a factor along with genuine concern]...

::) I'm happy to see you turned out alright...And that it was money well spent...[ *Well I hope it was money well spent for your sake *  ;) ] 

OK, now that was a dig at me.
uncool

It was me that insisted on exhaustive therapy not my therapist.
Truth be told my therapist got tired of seeing me, she told me there was no need for me to keep seeing her as she only does therapy with sick people.

Bottom line for me?

If you WANT SRS go and get it - then shut up your face and stop blaming anyone for not having given you enough guidance.

That's the typical immature behaviour of a lot of people and is unfortunately supported by the media and some lawyers that make it their living.

YOU CAN NOT PROTECT A PERSON FROM HIM OR HER SELF - if you think so you are a fool or some misguided journalist or legal-beagle. Simple as that.

Axélle
PS: In fact no one to my knowledge has done a survey of suicides actually CAUSED by some overly restrictive gate-keepers. They rather have you kill yourself first, before they be blamed for having made a "mistake".
Current culture to render the patient an imbecile rather then a mature human being. (My very own experience)

Quote from: Axélle on December 08, 2011, 09:45:10 AM
Bottom line for me?

If you WANT SRS go and get it - then shut up your face and stop blaming anyone for not having given you enough guidance.

That's the typical immature behaviour of a lot of people and is unfortunately supported by the media and some lawyers that make it their living.

YOU CAN NOT PROTECT A PERSON FROM HIM OR HER SELF - if you think so you are a fool or some misguided journalist or legal-beagle. Simple as that.

Axélle
PS: In fact no one to my knowledge has done a survey of suicides actually CAUSED by some overly restrictive gate-keepers. They rather have you kill yourself first, before they be blamed for having made a "mistake".
Current culture to render the patient an imbecile rather then a mature human being. (My very own experience)

Pretty much, yeah. I mean, if someone truly wants SRS, then that person will get it anyhow regardless if the person should or not.

A friend of mine made herself irrevocable enemies with her gatekeepers and pretty much shouted at them to shove it, and the gatekeeper lost it aswell and told her the same thing. :laugh: ::)
Anyway, she took a big lone and went over to Thailand and had her SRS and after that the State in her own country was pretty much legaly forced to help her with the rest such as namechanges and cosmetic surery and so on.

Anyway, she seemed much happier, atleast, so apparently it was the right decision for her.

In any case, there are all kinds of people having SRS that perhaps rather shouldn't and just as a selfproclaimed transsexual may fully possibly be a gay male in denial, the reverse is be true aswell, and I know for a fact that many selfproclaimed gays are in actuality transsexuals in denial.
But then again, those ones rarely seems happy and are just too often edgy and real dramaqueens about everything. ::)

Quote from: cynthialee on December 08, 2011, 09:29:32 AM
OK, now that was a dig at me.
uncool

CL remember this?

"Zenda means well enough but there is a cultural disconect she has with english. I have tried to give her some pointers into being more politic with her questions but the language disconect seems to prevent true understanding.

Anyways...she doesn't mean to piss us off, she just does."

::) Nice one CL....

Metta Zenda :)

Uh oh. Someone better tell my wife.

Kia Ora folks,

::) I would like to point out that there are some of us who are at peace with ourselves and the world and with this peace comes a deep concern for the well being/fare of others, especially those who have yet to find inner peace ...

::) In order to obtain this 'lasting' peace, one has to stripe bare the contents of ones mind and rebuild it in a more positive way...Being honest with oneself is one of the hardest things to do because 'Old habits die hard !'....

::) I might not live your life but it does not stop me from having genuine concern for your well being...

::) I mean no disrespect with my posts, however some will for whatever reason 'always' find fault, that is, feel a little 'uncomfortable' with what I write and express this, some times in the form of a personal attack[be it indirect] and this is to be expected...I go with the flow....

::) If a person is truly in control of their life/mind, they would not be affected by what others write, they might think a little deeper about what's been said, but the other person's words should not dictate their mood...However if they do, then this would be an indication they are easily lead and sadly life for these people will be a continual roller coaster of conflicting emotions with other people pulling their strings...

::)   Are you sure you know who you are ? What if you are just a closeted gay in deep denial ?

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Jen61 on December 08, 2011, 08:18:10 AM
Intersting replays and opinions. I have my views which are colored by my professional activities. As such I could not see what the connection between my gender identity and my sexual orientation are (or were). The few times that the issue was brought by counselors, physicians, or other concerned individuals, my standard postion was: "Oh, I am not confused or unhappy about my sexual orientation; and what ever it is it has no bearing in my gender identity."

In my case my gender identity has no bearing  in anything except on my self perception of my gender and who I am. I am a female scientist, scholar, American, Dutch-decendant, martial artist, former bike racer, and last but not least a father by the grace of God.

I do what I want without letting the perceptions of femininity of masculinity  affect my decisions. I am perfectly comfortable "dolling up' at a slumber part, or racing the the dirt bike with the boys. It is me, the same person, just another female.

My sex life is but a small yet comforting and pleasurable part of my life, an spiritual nexus to my partner; as such just her and mine bussines

Kia Ora Jen,

::) Scientists are trained to think things through in a 'logical' way ! By discarding any 'emotional' baggage that might contaminate reason...

::) It's good to see you're not greatly affected by the words of others...

Metta Zenda :)

As logical as any scientist is, their personal prejudices and beliefs always leak through into their final opinion.

Quote from: Axélle on December 08, 2011, 09:45:10 AM
Bottom line for me?

If you WANT SRS go and get it - then shut up your face and stop blaming anyone for not having given you enough guidance.

That's the typical immature behaviour of a lot of people and is unfortunately supported by the media and some lawyers that make it their living.

YOU CAN NOT PROTECT A PERSON FROM HIM OR HER SELF - if you think so you are a fool or some misguided journalist or legal-beagle. Simple as that.

Axélle
PS: In fact no one to my knowledge has done a survey of suicides actually CAUSED by some overly restrictive gate-keepers. They rather have you kill yourself first, before they be blamed for having made a "mistake".
Current culture to render the patient an imbecile rather then a mature human being. (My very own experience)

Kia Ora Axelle,

::) Gate keepers are 'human' too and like humans at times make mistakes, if they didn't they would not be human...

::) BTW I'm sorry to hear your time with a gate keeper was not a pleasant one, but for you it's now in the past...So be happy in the 'now'....

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Sarah Louise on December 08, 2011, 12:46:43 PM
As logical as any scientist is, their personal prejudices and beliefs always leak through into their final opinion.

Kia Ora SL,

::)  "True !"

Metta Zenda :)

A gay male is the last thing that I am.  I just don't like males at all.    I can be polite to men but I just don't want to know them or be with them.    I much prefer the company of females.

  OMFG....I'M REALLY JUST A SUPER DUPER EFFEMINATE GAY GUY IN DENIAL WHO DOESN'T LIKE ANAL SEX BUT INSTEAD WANTS TO BE PENETRATED IN HIS IMAGINARY VAGINA!!!   :o

 

  Glad that's cleared up.   :laugh:

   

   

Quote from: Rukia87xo on December 08, 2011, 08:39:54 PM

  OMFG....I'M REALLY JUST A SUPER DUPER EFFEMINATE GAY GUY IN DENIAL WHO DOESN'T LIKE ANAL SEX BUT INSTEAD WANTS TO BE PENETRATED IN HIS IMAGINARY VAGINA!!!   :o

 

  Glad that's cleared up.   :laugh:

   

   

Kia Ora R,

::) Each to their own...Whatever turns one on...After all who am I to judge... ;)

Metta Zenda :)

I used to think that I was a gay male, but have since realized that is not who I am; however, it was the path that I took that eventually led to me understanding that I'm a woman.  I never let myself consider that before, but since I knew that I liked men, I felt that I must be gay so I eventually found the courage to explore my sexuality.  That exploration confirmed that I indeed liked guys, but it also confirmed to me that I am not a gay male.

Quote from: Robertina on December 08, 2011, 09:17:22 PM
I used to think that I was a gay male, but have since realized that is not who I am; however, it was the path that I took that eventually led to me understanding that I'm a woman.  I never let myself consider that before, but since I knew that I liked men, I felt that I must be gay so I eventually found the courage to explore my sexuality.  That exploration confirmed that I indeed liked guys, but it also confirmed to me that I am not a gay male.

Kia Ora Robertine,

::) A path well trod by many a trans-person.....

Metta Zenda :)

My reply to the OP would be this: we change every day. Every single choice we make and every interaction changes us, even if only a little. I may not know I am or who I will be, but I know who I would like to be. I don't think it needs to be any more complicated than that.

Though, I really don't see how it would be possible to undergo everything and never once second guess yourself until afterwards. I mean, complete transition is a huge and it doesn't happen over night. Doubts would probably come into play pretty early if you were just homosexual and in the closet. The idea reminds me of certain nay-saying bloggers going on about how FTMs are lesbians in denial. (I for one have never been attracted to women. Total gay guy here) 

Quote from: Ayden on December 08, 2011, 09:41:51 PM
My reply to the OP would be this: we change every day. Every single choice we make and every interaction changes us, even if only a little. I may not know I am or who I will be, but I know who I would like to be. I don't think it needs to be any more complicated than that.
Though, I really don't see how it would be possible to undergo everything and never once second guess yourself until afterwards. I mean, complete transition is a huge and it doesn't happen over night. Doubts would probably come into play pretty early if you were just homosexual and in the closet. The idea reminds me of certain nay-saying bloggers going on about how FTMs are lesbians in denial. (I for one have never been attracted to women. Total gay guy here)

Kia Ora Ayden,

::) If one is secure in ones knowledge of their sexual orientation and gender identity then there should be no problems whatsoever...And no need to defend or justify ones identity...

::) However under pressure some 'mentally unstable' people[and lets face it, the minds of  some gender and sexually diverse people are not that 'stable']  make 'mistakes', and at time 'major' mistakes[another fact], some live to regret their mistakes, others don't...Sadly this to is a fact...

::) I'm happy that you are comfortable in your own skin...After all 'self acceptance' is of the utmost importance...

Metta Zenda :)

*   Scientists are trained to think things through in a 'logical' way ! By discarding any 'emotional' baggage that might contaminate reason... *

Kia Ora...

that is actually often the problem, not the solution as science is also on an ongoing learning path.
Pretending that by discarding emotion, which no one actually can, be creating an "un-contaminated" outcome is scientifically speaking wrong too.

It is a known fact by now, that EVERY scientist ALSO influences the outcome of his/her "scientific" findings. Margarine is better then butter, now at present butter is again better then margarine...

In this sense I perceive that you have some underlying motivation too - it makes you ask the question of the OP in the first place.

You may try as hard as you wish to keep it all on the rational level but in fact there is ALWAYS an underlying motivation. In your case it may be the wish to "save" some folks from making a mistake?

You can not prevent people from making mistakes. To believe this, is a fallacy based on 'rational though' only. As we are at best 50/50 - rational/emotional, this will not work, unless you have at least a few more people that would check you own rational - such as I in fact do right now.

BTW, it is one of those "be rational only" mistakes that was so clearly committed by Any Rand in her well read book "Atlas shrugged". She also missed the mark by trying to be "rational" only – which in fact she also was not.
It is irrational to be pretending to be rational (scientific) only. That gatekeeper who'd rather have you commit suicide then being blamed for making a mistake, was one good example of hiding his emotion (fear) behind some "scientific" rational finding.

So, if a gay male is in deep denial and wants SRS go for it!
Just don't blame your "mistake" on anyone afterwards, like some immature beings would.
This should take care of the inquiry for all I can see.

In fact - WHO in deep denial will EVER come out of denial, - other then by some major emotional shock?!

My 2 cents for now,
Axélle

Quote from: Axélle on December 08, 2011, 11:15:57 PM
*   Scientists are trained to think things through in a 'logical' way ! By discarding any 'emotional' baggage that might contaminate reason... *

Kia Ora...

that is actually often the problem, not the solution as science is also on an ongoing learning path.
Pretending that by discarding emotion, which no one actually can, be creating an "un-contaminated" outcome is scientifically speaking wrong too.

It is a known fact by now, that EVERY scientist ALSO influences the outcome of his/her "scientific" findings. Margarine is better then butter, now at present butter is again better then margarine...

In this sense I perceive that you have some underlying motivation too - it makes you ask the question of the OP in the first place.

You may try as hard as you wish to keep it all on the rational level but in fact there is ALWAYS an underlying motivation. In your case it may be the wish to "save" some folks from making a mistake?

You can not prevent people from making mistakes. To believe this, is a fallacy based on 'rational though' only. As we are at best 50/50 - rational/emotional, this will not work, unless you have at least a few more people that would check you own rational - such as I in fact do right now.

BTW, it is one of those "be rational only" mistakes that was so clearly committed by Any Rand in her well read book "Atlas shrugged". She also missed the mark by trying to be "rational" only – which in fact she also was not.
It is irrational to be pretending to be rational (scientific) only. That gatekeeper who'd rather have you commit suicide then being blamed for making a mistake, was one good example of hiding his emotion (fear) behind some "scientific" rational finding.

So, if a gay male is in deep denial and wants SRS go for it!
Just don't blame your "mistake" on anyone afterwards, like some immature beings would.
This should take care of the inquiry for all I can see.

In fact - WHO in deep denial will EVER come out of denial, - other then by some major emotional shock?!

My 2 cents for now,
Axélle

Kia Ora Axelle,

::) Interesting points, however I should point out that in the conventional sense I'm 'not' the scientist, I was referring to Jen's comments when she said she was a 'female scientist',  I was pointing out a fact about scientists having to be trained to think in a logical way-so in theory a trans-person with a scientific background should be able to use this training so has not get caught up with the emotional turmoil that often blocks rational thoughts when working through ones transition...Plus if one is trained to think in a logical way this would also mean ones actions and reactions will in most cases not be driven by irrational emotions...Like flying off the handle if one misinterprets what a person had said ... Highly emotional/strung scientists are a rarity ,but as usual there are always exceptions to this rule...

::) However people are human and humans have flaws which  often leads 'us' to make mistakes, sometimes major ones... At times even scientists make mistakes so I totally agree with you on that...But for the most part they do tend to learn from their mistakes...

"A definition of insanity-continuing to do the same thing over and over again, but each time hoping for a different outcome/result !"

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on December 08, 2011, 09:06:51 PM
Kia Ora R,

::) Each to their own...Whatever turns one on...After all who am I to judge... ;)

Metta Zenda :)

  Kia Ora Zenda

           That's just me being sarcastic, sadly sarcasm is harder for people to grasp over the internet.  :D

Quote from: Rukia87xo on December 09, 2011, 12:48:28 AM
  Kia Ora Zenda

           That's just me being sarcastic, sadly sarcasm is harder for people to grasp over the internet.  :D

Kia Ora R,

::) Don't worry  I knew you were...I was being sarcastic too  ;) ;D  * But I do accept and respect you no matter how you choose to live your life...It's your life to live....

Metta Zenda :)

You know, when I read through the new posts to this thread just now, I suddenly came to think of a very fitting subject that would be relevant for this topic: Josef Kirchner, a MTFTM-transitioner, that, as may be hinted, started of as a birth-assgned male;
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhprofile-ak-snc4%2F195323_1530908095_3320137_n.jpg&hash=fb3026b640145bfa3ceb3ebee1fbbf5669bf0573) A male that later on during his later teens early twenties transitioned into a woman. A woman that was actually both beautiful, passable and succesfull.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjosefkirchner.com%2Fyahoo_site_admin%2Fassets%2Fimages%2F1997bikini.154194400_std.jpg&hash=591f9ff08b14fab0990a22928cbd48af6c94fca7)
However, after some years, she- Judy, as she called herself- started to wonder if she really did the right decision, and after some more years, she started to now feel like a man trapped in a female body.
After some thorough Soulsearching, that amongst other things lead her into a Cure homos and ->-bleeped-<-s through God-group, she de-transitioned into a male again. However, although the de-transition was on her own decision, she was used by the group as a living proof that you someone like her could truly change back successfully.
She however soon woke up and found out how outrageously wrong their opinions and standpoints on the whole topic of Gender, Sexual Orientations and God, were, which she considered being much more fluid and much broader on the spectra than they claimed, and pretty much asked them to shove it and remove her name from their business.

However She, now a He, was nonetheless very happy having de-transitioned and no longer felt trapped in his own body and even started to bodybuild and turned into quite a Mans Man.(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transchristians.org%2F_%2Frsrc%2F1251648625919%2Fpeople%2Fjosef-kirchner%2FMarch2009joe.76105407.jpg&hash=b7dffe5f28e1a2041fa9b0fd7a761fa5b7528c82) (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftranscendgender.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F08%2Fjosef1.jpg&hash=ea2e004eaf67fc20445b21351414c3a9a3384a90)
He realized, that he actually hadn't really wanted to be a woman, but only wanted SRS, but transitioned into a woman anyways as he did not know of any other options in those days.

Now, he identifies himself as a proud gay male with a vagina and have no intentions to ever change that.

He also works for a broader legal acceptation by the law regarding SRS-procedures, so that even persons that, for instance, identify as gay males like himself, but nonetheless wants SRS, should be able to have it, just as diagnosed transsexuals, and less regrets would occur as a result of this, instead of people doing a full transition although they perhaps only wants to alter a part of their body and not actually transforming into another Sex.

He is indeed quite a fascinating man, really.

Quote from: Bishounen on December 09, 2011, 09:54:43 AM
You know, when I read through the new posts to this thread just now, I suddenly came to think of a very fitting subject that would be relevant for this topic: Josef Kirchner, a MTFTM-transitioner, that, as may be hinted, started of as a birth-assgned male;
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fprofile.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhprofile-ak-snc4%2F195323_1530908095_3320137_n.jpg&hash=fb3026b640145bfa3ceb3ebee1fbbf5669bf0573) A male that later on during his later teens early twenties transitioned into a woman. A woman that was actually both beautiful, passable and succesfull.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjosefkirchner.com%2Fyahoo_site_admin%2Fassets%2Fimages%2F1997bikini.154194400_std.jpg&hash=591f9ff08b14fab0990a22928cbd48af6c94fca7)
However, after some years, she- Judy, as she called herself- started to wonder if she really did the right decision, and after some more years, she started to now feel like a man trapped in a female body.
After some thorough Soulsearching, that amongst other things lead her into a Cure homos and ->-bleeped-<-s through God-group, she de-transitioned into a male again. However, although the de-transition was on her own decision, she was used by the group as a living proof that you someone like her could truly change back successfully.
She however soon woke up and found out how outrageously wrong their opinions and standpoints on the whole topic of Gender, Sexual Orientations and God, were, which she considered being much more fluid and much broader on the spectra than they claimed, and pretty much asked them to shove it and remove her name from their business.

However She, now a He, was nonetheless very happy having de-transitioned and no longer felt trapped in his own body and even started to bodybuild and turned into quite a Mans Man.(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transchristians.org%2F_%2Frsrc%2F1251648625919%2Fpeople%2Fjosef-kirchner%2FMarch2009joe.76105407.jpg&hash=b7dffe5f28e1a2041fa9b0fd7a761fa5b7528c82) (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftranscendgender.files.wordpress.com%2F2008%2F08%2Fjosef1.jpg&hash=ea2e004eaf67fc20445b21351414c3a9a3384a90)
He realized, that he actually hadn't really wanted to be a woman, but only wanted SRS, but transitioned into a woman anyways as he did not know of any other options in those days.

Now, he identifies himself as a proud gay male with a vagina and have no intentions to ever change that.

He also works for a broader legal acceptation by the law regarding SRS-procedures, so that even persons that, for instance, identify as gay males like himself, but nonetheless wants SRS, should be able to have it, just as diagnosed transsexuals, and less regrets would occur as a result of this, instead of people doing a full transition although they perhaps only wants to alter a part of their body and not actually transforming into another Sex.

He is indeed quite a fascinating man, really.

Kia Ora B,

::) He does indeed sound like quite a fascinating character...And it sure does fit in with this topic Thanks...

Metta Zenda :)

Don't think I like this sort of fascination...

Does THAT make me "...just a closeted gay in deep denial ?"

For it strikes me more tragic then fascinating, really.

Oh, I must be so binary...
Axélle

One has to give him credit for having the courage to admit a huge mistake and take corrective action.

So as hard it is for me to conceived uncertainty about our gender identity, I guess he did feel like a male who thought he felt like a female just to discover he really is a male.

I wonder how frequent is this phenomena ?

Quote from: Axélle on December 09, 2011, 12:56:12 PM
Don't think I like this sort of fascination...

Does THAT make me "...just a closeted gay in deep denial ?"

For it strikes me more tragic then fascinating, really.

Oh, I must be so binary...
Axélle

Kia Ora Axelle,

::) It sounds like he's quite happy with the out come...'Tragic' it would seem is your personal perception...

::) Does it make you just a closeted gay in deep denial ?"  ::) Only you can know this for sure! After all, I'm not your shrink  ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

Kia Ora B,

::) Josef Kirchner reminds me a bit of Charles Kane, however he's going to[or has done by now] have an artificial penis constructed and as from what I gather reverted back to live a heterosexual life style...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html)

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Jen61 on December 09, 2011, 01:01:18 PM
One has to give him credit for having the courage to admit a huge mistake and take corrective action.

So as hard it is for me to conceived uncertainty about our gender identity, I guess he did feel like a male who thought he felt like a female just to discover he really is a male.

I wonder how frequent is this phenomena ?

Kia Ora Jen,

::) It's not that frequent, however every person entering into this journey of self discovery really does need to do some deep soul searching[I keep using the term soul even though I don't believe such a thing exists-but many here do-so that's why...]

::) Some who read this thread will be confident in who they are and just find some of the comments interesting - some will still be in denial regarding their sexual orientation and gender identity and perhaps be forced to think a little deeper - some will just find the whole topic uncomfortable perhaps a little too close to home [for comfort]...

::) However, whatever and how ever one chooses to take in the contents of this thread, the important thing is that it sets ones thoughts in motion...

::) Again I repeat, this thread is not meant/designed to offend nor judge...Just some seeds for food for thought...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on December 09, 2011, 01:48:54 PM
Kia Ora B,

::) Josef Kirchner reminds me a bit of Charles Kane, however he's going to[or has done by now] have an artificial penis constructed and as from what I gather reverted back to live a heterosexual life style...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html)

Metta Zenda :)

Is "B" me? Maybe not, but I answer anyways. ;D

I actually came to think about Charles/Samantha, too, because of Josef.
However, in my opinion, these two persons are, although having some things in common, very different as individuals.
Charles, now after his de-transition, has very unflattering opinions about trans-people and basically thinks they are all "deluded", only because he was, while Josef, although originally having said not so nice things either, nowadays instead have honestly apologized for this and realized how wrong the former opinions were. And not any least, he also do not want to restrict medical help for similar people but instead make it more easily avaible but without demands on comfirming to a specific Gender role.

It is a petty that several of those de-transitioners turning to the Media not seldomly holds opinions that are the exact opposite of Josef's, and that the person in question is often very bitter and angry and wants to blame someone. Sometimes even to the extreme and ban all types of Transgendered Surgery altogether, just because it was not the right thing for them, such as, for instance, Walt Hayer and Alan Finch. Alan Finch years later actually even sued the clinic that helped him, because they approved him(!) after that he faked the Gender-tests, as the first tests he did revealed him to be very masculine mentally, which was also the reason he was at first denied surgery. Hence, he later on faked them again, now giving the "right" answers and was this time approved for surgery.
After the surgery She was actually happy at first, or so he atleast claimed in an interview where she- Helen- said that this "she would never regret", only to make a complete turn-around years later and wanting to sue the whole World. ::)
However he never got his case approved, although the Clinic was indeed forced to close down temporarily because of the suing.

Dramaqueens. :P

Quote from: Bishounen on December 09, 2011, 03:07:10 PM
Is "B" me? Maybe not, but I answer anyways. ;D

I actually came to think about Charles/Samantha, too, because of Josef.
However, in my opinion, these two persons are, although having some things in common, very different as individuals.
Charles, now after his de-transition, has very unflattering opinions about trans-people and basically thinks they are all "deluded", only because he was, while Josef, although originally having said not so nice things either, nowadays instead have honestly apologized for this and realized how wrong the former opinions were. And not any least, he also do not want to restrict medical help for similar people but instead make it more easily avaible but without demands on comfirming to a specific Gender role.

It is a petty that several of those de-transitioners turning to the Media not seldomly holds opinions that are the exact opposite of Josef's, and that the person in question is often very bitter and angry and wants to blame someone. Sometimes even to the extreme and ban all types of Transgendered Surgery altogether, just because it was not the right thing for them, such as, for instance, Walt Hayer and Alan Finch. Alan Finch years later actually even sued the clinic that helped him, because they approved him(!) after that he faked the Gender-tests, as the first tests he did revealed him to be very masculine mentally, which was also the reason he was at first denied surgery. Hence, he later on faked them again, now giving the "right" answers and was this time approved for surgery.
After the surgery She was actually happy at first, or so he atleast claimed in an interview where she- Helen- said that this "she would never regret", only to make a complete turn-around years later and wanting to sue the whole World. ::)
However he never got his case approved, although the Clinic was indeed forced to close down temporarily because of the suing.

Dramaqueens. :P

Kia Ora B,

::) You get another +1 for that short and sweet, straight to the point answer... "Dramaqueens" I love it, simple yet profoundly true !  ;D

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on December 09, 2011, 01:05:19 PM
Kia Ora Axelle,

::) It sounds like he's quite happy with the out come...'Tragic' it would seem is your personal perception...

Absolutely my personal perception, the only one I happen to have in any case, um :-)

Quote
::) Does it make you just a closeted gay in deep denial ?"  ::) Only you can know this for sure! After all, I'm not your shrink  ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

My psychiatrist/shrink, eh? He didn't - and still doesn't know me... I said enough about that individual by now.

Also de-transitioning folks give me the heebie-jeebies... I would not consider them fascinating for one moment, but pretty messed up and the end of the day.

RHPS... "let's go to the lab and see what's on the slab..." stuff. Grrrrr

Just imagine what to go through with SRS, plus BA followed by mastectomy, and then switching from E back to T, and now by injection (balls gone, um) and now to go body building... HELP!
Just OTT...

Axélle

I find the detransitioning cases interesting, in a rather sad way. I imagine it must have been hard to admit to people that what they did was a mistake for them. Another thing I've noticed is that you cant generalize...Charles Kane seemed to transition (and detransition) because he hit a hard place in his life and felt rushed; Josef Kirchner seems to have only wanted a vagina, not to be a woman; there was another MtFtM person (forget the name) who was pressured to by their church and now often misses living as a woman.

Quote from: Caseyy on December 10, 2011, 01:22:38 PM
I find the detransitioning cases interesting, in a rather sad way. I imagine it must have been hard to admit to people that what they did was a mistake for them. Another thing I've noticed is that you cant generalize...Charles Kane seemed to transition (and detransition) because he hit a hard place in his life and felt rushed; Josef Kirchner seems to have only wanted a vagina, not to be a woman; there was another MtFtM person (forget the name) who was pressured to by their church and now often misses living as a woman.

Kia Ora Casey,

::) The bottom link mentions this...However the other two are an interesting read...

http://tgmentalhealth.com/category/post-transition/ (http://tgmentalhealth.com/category/post-transition/) 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu23.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu23.htm)

http://transcendgender.com/2008/08/30/msnbcs-born-in-the-wrong-body-a-change-of-heart/ (http://transcendgender.com/2008/08/30/msnbcs-born-in-the-wrong-body-a-change-of-heart/)

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Axélle on December 10, 2011, 07:41:01 AM

Also de-transitioning folks give me the heebie-jeebies... I would not consider them fascinating for one moment, but pretty messed up and the end of the day.

Axélle

Kia Ora Axelle,

::) Just out of interest, why do they make 'you' feel uncomfortable ? You are not like them, so in theory what they do with their bodies should not impact on the peace of mind you say you have found... One might have some 'concern' for their well being=empathy, but why would/should the 'de-transitioner' generate uncomfortable feelings in others when one is comfortable in ones own skin [with oneself]?

Metta Zenda :)

Honestly, I think the whole MTFTM thing proves one thing: people should be able to do what they want to begin with, and no one would have regrets. That being said, even regrets sometimes can be a positive experience, as obviously that guy made a lot of money being a woman and learned from the experience. I mean, it's not healthy to play around with your body like it's play-doh (I know that from two botched rhinoplasty procedures), but at the end of the day, you only live once - if you absolutely know you need to change, and only undergo the change with the most professional doctors around. Things are now possible in this world that never have been achievable across the face of the planet. The MTFTM guy on the last page? If he didn't transition to female when he did, he may have committed suicide like literally millions of men across the planet's history. However, he was allowed to at least transition in some sort of way, he's now proud he has a vagina, and he seems to enjoy transitioning back into a man. What's there really to hate on?

I'm sort of the opposite myself, I'd love to have a feminine face, and as long as no one saw my penis nor cared that I had it, I probably wouldn't have a huge deal if I never underwent SRS. The honest truth is I'd never dream of using my penis in a sexual scenario, but until I achieve a feminine face, I would actually feel horrible with a vagina (I'd feel like even more a monster, looking like a man but having a surgery-made vagina - I need entirely pass a girl first.) so I'm only looking as far into the future as my emotions allow. SRS is something for me that'll happen when every other step in my transition is entirely comfortable and happy, and because no man that I socialize with wants to stick his penis in the vagina of a man who looks haggard, I'm not to worried about it until I become pretty. And even then, it's no rush, I'm never going to push myself into something I merely guess on, it's either going to 100% be my heart's desire or I won't do it. Being pretty and "female" face-value is something that I've dreamed of all my life, looking natural in pretty female clothes, being an actress, being a romantic, cute partner.....but having a female genitalia that a couple people on earth will ever see? It's never been a huge deal to me, I've never had a bad situation arise because of my genitalia. So I'm beating what's actually caused my dysphoria first, and seeing what happens after that.

I'm not sure if anyone has posted this, sorry if so. Just offers a different perspective/some extra info on the detransitioners mentioned here. Changes things significantly.

http://www.transchristians.org/ex-trans (http://www.transchristians.org/ex-trans)

Quote from: Caseyy on December 12, 2011, 02:45:22 AM
I'm not sure if anyone has posted this, sorry if so. Just offers a different perspective/some extra info on the detransitioners mentioned here. Changes things significantly.

http://www.transchristians.org/ex-trans (http://www.transchristians.org/ex-trans)

Oh, Transgender Christians is a good site. :)
And indeed an interesting perspective, too. :)
But, how do you mean that it changes the info?

You mean the fact that Josef is listed in it?

If so, then the reason that Josef had his deal with the organisation Jonah, started when he stumbled over it when he had already realized that he had done a mistake, and got aware of them when watching a TV-interview with its frontman Jerry Leach while at the work as a nurse. At the time, She, then Judy, thought that what Jerry said made alot of sense and got sucked in.
It was thanks to them, by the way, that s/he could have his/her Masectomy and immediately afterwards started living as a man again, which was also the reason that he was used as a "brilliant example" by the organisation and Jerry that one truly could successfully go back to living as the birth-assigned Sex.
However to make a longer story shorter, he was as said used by Jerry for a while and also as a spokesperson for him, but quite soon realized that the opinions Jerry propagated was the very opposite of the opinions Josef had on the matter, hence leading up to the big split where Josef finally called Jerry a "Fetishtic ->-bleeped-<- that took things too far and couldn't even solve his own problems" and asked him to never use his name again in their organisition.

He have however made clear that his de-transition was all on his own initiative and would have happened sooner or later regardless of if he had crossed roads with the organisation, and he also points out that he is truly genuinly happy nowadays in his newfound identity.

That was it, really.  ::)

As for Alan Finch, on the other hand, it seems very possible that religion may have had an actual play in his de-transition, as he said that he was "encouraged" by a woman he met to live as a man again, but as there is no actual proof that such was the case, one can only speculate.

But you got to admit that things doesn't quite add up when you read the linked old interview with him as Helen from 1989, and then compairs it to what he says nowadays.
The interview from 1989: http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=178898&stc=1&d=1211356198 (http://www.hungangels.com/vboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=178898&stc=1&d=1211356198)

Years later: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/09/15/1094927634658.html (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/09/15/1094927634658.html)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fasecondhandconjecture.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F08%2Falan-helen-alan-finch.jpg&hash=aa5291d2ec48b56f965e2a392ddc0295f7f078d2)

Quote from: Zenda on December 10, 2011, 02:42:26 PM
Kia Ora Axelle,

::) Just out of interest, why do they make 'you' feel uncomfortable ? You are not like them, so in theory what they do with their bodies should not impact on the peace of mind you say you have found... One might have some 'concern' for their well being=empathy, but why would/should the 'de-transitioner' generate uncomfortable feelings in others when one is comfortable in ones own skin [with oneself]?

Metta Zenda :)

Zenda,
some people make one feel uncomfortable, - I'm sure there be some for you too?

They go in some fashion against our 'inner grain' and we all have some 'inner grain' call it believe-system.
Our believe system actually makes for a large part for what we are, how we see ourselves, right?

With NO believe-system we have no personality i.e. are like babies, be a good comparison. You'd simply with no opinion neither of yourself (you as a person) nor others for that matter. So in this case all is equal so long you not cold or hungry, etc. (I actually has some short memory of that state)

Now, empathy is NOT always of a 'detached' quality and it is the very empathy that makes one feel uncomfortable - like watching a dancer to trip, stumble, or even fall during a ballet or some such.

If I see a person that spend all their heart and soul to transition - and from looks of it, transition well, - and then de-transition - it wants to make me cry. For my empathy makes me feel VERY sad for that person, and the PAIN it must have been, to go through it all. That to me spells TRAGIC.

Without empathy one might feel it be all one big stupid joke, or a comedy of errors.

Maybe that will explain it better when I say it feels tragic to me --- as a matter of fact, it could happen to all of us - since we can not know the future.

Kia Ora,
Axélle

The thing about Josef, yeah, but there was something about another guy named Walt Heyer. He was diagnosed with Dissociative Identity Disorder, which could explain why he had cross-gender feelings but was not trans. Some of transchristians is just speculation but when it comes to individuals the info seems accurate. They have a few detransitioners on there who retransitioned, but no one updated about that, just kept using them as faces for the detransition movement.

That old interview with Alan as Helen is interesting. I don't remember seeing that before. A part of me wonders if he detransitioned because people were not accepting (lost two partners over it, and then the third wanted him to be a man again). I hear a lot of the detransitioners saying that they were not "real" men/women, that their biological sex is their true self, but does that come from their own feelings and identity or from a lifetime of rejection and not fitting in? I suppose we'll never really know.

Got a good point you got - we all are socially challenged, some more some less. Falling in love with a person, and what do we do? Try to PLEASE them.
De-transitioning can easily become such a thing to PLEASE a beloved or would-be beloved.

It's like so many other things we would do like 'bend over backwards' for a person we are strongly attracted to, in lust with, in love with.

It's also why I said - we can't know the future - it might just turn out 'tragic' as well. Tragic as in a Greek tragedy play :-)

Axélle

Quote from: Axélle on December 12, 2011, 10:42:15 PM
Got a good point you got - we all are socially challenged, some more some less. Falling in love with a person, and what do we do? Try to PLEASE them.
De-transitioning can easily become such a thing to PLEASE a beloved or would-be beloved.

It's like so many other things we would do like 'bend over backwards' for a person we are strongly attracted to, in lust with, in love with.

It's also why I said - we can't know the future - it might just turn out 'tragic' as well. Tragic as in a Greek tragedy play :-)

Axélle

Kia Ora Axelle,

::) True...Love can be a blessing and burden at the same time...Love turns to hate, hate turns to love...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on December 07, 2011, 12:55:25 AM

::) On the other hand it's also quite possible some deeply 'closeted' gay-people are so internally homophobic phobic due to social/family/friends/community pressure to conform to the norm  :icon_ashamed: [especially if one happens to live in a religious community where homosexuality has been frown upon for many years] that the stigma of coming out 'gay' is too much to bear, they feel that being seen as a female would be more appropriate and more acceptable in a heteronormative society/community...So they go down the transition route including HRT and  'nip and tuck' only to find later down the track[when the mixture of euphoria   :icon_boogy: and confusion  :icon_confused: fades], they had make an horrible mistake, their core psycho-sexual identity[the one that counts] was NOT female.... :icon_yikes:

~Gay men don't get sex changes. ::)

Quote from: Axélle on December 07, 2011, 12:06:41 PM

If I'm a ~ 70% lesbian and ~ 30% hetero female I actually think I'm in PERFECTLY good company with loads of natal females.
No need to further analyse this and get our knickers into yet one more twist.

Just thinking,
Axélle

I lean more towards women, too; most of the time. It just sucks that there is no good label that adequately sums up the nuances of my feelings.

Quote from: Zenda on December 07, 2011, 12:17:46 PM
::) The stigma attached to 'homosexuality' is alive and well even in this forum... No doubt there are some members who 'fear' being seen as 'gay' and not just it being a case of 'mistaken' identity ["oh you're just gay" so to speak and then not taking the person's 'true' trans identity seriously], but for those still questioning/unsure about their feelings/identity it's all the 'religious' baggage that could come with such an  allegation ..

~Personally, I'd have no problem being gay (I only have a problem with the 'male' anything part); I actually identified as a lesbian for a while. :)

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 07, 2011, 10:18:57 PM
It doesn't really disguise anything...If anything, it makes a homosexual male GAYER.

To quote my friend Adam, "Hun, you were so gay you became a girl!!"

Wow, that is offensive! But for every gay male that will tell you that, I'm fairly certain there's at least five more who would state with some annoyance that gay men and transsexual women have nothing in common, and are not even remotely the same.

Quote from: Axélle on December 10, 2011, 07:41:01 AM
Absolutely my personal perception, the only one I happen to have in any case, um :-)

Also de-transitioning folks give me the heebie-jeebies... I would not consider them fascinating for one moment, but pretty messed up and the end of the day.

RHPS... "let's go to the lab and see what's on the slab..." stuff. Grrrrr

Just imagine what to go through with SRS, plus BA followed by mastectomy, and then switching from E back to T, and now by injection (balls gone, um) and now to go body building... HELP!
Just OTT...

Axélle

I think I'm of the same opinion. It is a sad thing.

Quote from: Akashiya Moka on December 16, 2011, 08:32:05 AM
~Gay men don't get sex changes. ::)

I lean more towards women, too; most of the time. It just sucks that there is no good label that adequately sums up the nuances of my feelings.

~Personally, I'd have no problem being gay (I only have a problem with the 'male' anything part); I actually identified as a lesbian for a while. :)

When I was a teen I dated a Danish Girl (in Aarhus) who was Bi. being a teenanger from a rather conservative culture I was flabbergasted by the notion that one can be sexually attracted to both males and females. her response to my inquire was a puzzled look and "I just recognize needs in peoples, and the warmth that they can provided me in return"

Her words have stay with me for all this years, and may sum up your feelings,

Quote from: Akashiya Moka on December 16, 2011, 08:32:05 AM
~Gay men don't get sex changes. ::)

Kia Ora A M,

::) And where did you get this snippet of information from ?

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on December 16, 2011, 06:06:42 PM
Kia Ora A M,

::) And where did you get this snippet of information from ?

Metta Zenda :)

I may be simplifying but:

1) If you are a male homosexual and you get a vagina and you still feel you are a male homosexual, then why to get the vagina in the first place. The whole reason of getting a vagina is to align the body with the mind, female body with female gender, right ?

or

2) If you are a male homosexual and get a vagina and you feel you are a female, then you were never a male homosexual but a heterosexual transsexual

Kia Ora,

::) Perhaps 'self deception' would be a better way to express what I'm on about..."Pulling the wool over ones 'own' eyes !"

::) I can see where some of you are coming from, but the point I'm making[well trying to make] is there ARE some people [be a small minority of 'documented cases'] who for whatever reasons refuse/d to accept their 'sexual orientation'[same sex attraction] and will go to great lengths in an attempt to prove to the heteronormative society/community they live in 'they are NOT gay' to the extent of even fooling themselves *self deception* into believe that this is the case, and that the reason as to why they 'feel' & 'behave' the way they do is because they must be 'a woman trapped in a man's body'...Desperate times calls for desperate measures-so it would seem!

::) However just because a person might de-transition, does not necessarily mean they were 'gay' or 'not' transsexual... From what I gather some 'transsexual-people' have de-transitioned because of social/family pressures, in some cases they were not able to reach society's GIRL [Gender Identity Recognition Level], others have 'blended in' quite well, but missed their families who refuse to have anything to do with them unless they  reverted back to their birth sex ...

::) So as hard as it might seem for some members here, at times some 'gay' people change sex...

::) But I guess it's the same line of thought some cis-gender people adhere to, the ones who can't begin to imagine why a perfectly healthy bodied male or female would want to alter their bodies by HRT and have their sexual parts 'mutilated'  :icon_yikes: ![Their words not mine] ...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Jen61 on December 16, 2011, 08:35:25 PM
I may be simplifying but:

1) If you are a male homosexual and you get a vagina and you still feel you are a male homosexual, then why to get the vagina in the first place. The whole reason of getting a vagina is to align the body with the mind, female body with female gender, right ?

Yes, you are really simplifying things now. :P

People have SRS for very different reasons and not only for one single reason, such as, for instance, the"Aligne the Soul-stuff".

Regarding the gay males wanting a Vagina, these guys for the very most part are extreme bottoms that wants a Vagina as that would be what would suit their sexuality the best, as these guys- The extreme bottoms- usually loaths to use their dicks sexually or even having them touched, but nonetheless wants to be able to have sex in a female way rather than male way, but nonetheless have no desire whatsoever to actually be and live as a female or changing their bodies apart from that(Although there are also those of them that occasionally wants to crossdress, too)

Some of these guys are fortunate enough to find an understanding surgeon that will agree to perform SRS upon them despite not being transsexuals, while others solves the dilemma it by learning the gate-keeping procedures and questions beforehand and then pretends to be transsexuals, goes on female hormones and dresses up for every visit to the shrink, only so that they will get the referral letters needed for the surgery.
When they have gotten the permission and had their surgery, they afterwards immediately stops the HRT and goes back to living as males again, now having the genitals they wanted.
Often, they also start Testosterone replacement to maintain their "male health" and to keep their sexdrive intact.

Regarding transgendered MTF's, on the other hand, there are many of those that have SRS only for sexual reasons, too; They don't think they really need SRS to be happy in the everyday life and have nothing "against" their male genitals per say, as many other MTF's may, but has SRS excludingly for sexual reasons and to be "sexually functional" in the way they want to be able to.
In my opinion, these chicks often actually turns out happier than those that have had SRS "just because", that is, because they have thought that "Ah well, better have SRS to be a "real woman"", or how to put it.

In my opinion, SRS and medical aid in the "Gender-field" should be avaible for anyone that have a genuine need for it and have thoroughly thought it through, regardless of direction of Gender identity or even sexual reasons.

Quote from: Akashiya Moka on December 16, 2011, 08:32:05 AM
~Gay men don't get sex changes. ::)

Well, this one did: Transsexual regrets having operation (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4217541572042440368)

Quote from: Joandelynn on December 17, 2011, 11:01:01 AM
Well, this one did: Transsexual regrets having operation (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4217541572042440368)

Kia Ora Joandelynn,

::) WOW ! Thank you for finding this 'fascinating' video clip...I feel for the guy, and hope that he will eventually find peace of mind...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: spacial on December 07, 2011, 06:33:50 AM
This reminds me of the allegations regarding homosexuals up to the 60s. That basically, they were lonely, couldn't meet anyone of the opposite sex and resorted to what they could.

They understand members of their own sex better because that is all they know.

That they, especially male homosexuals, will do it with anyone or anything. That they have a Freudian bottom fixation.

This was backed by claims that most people in prisons, mental hospitals and similar institutions have homosexual relations with each other. Though no actual evidence was offered. (I once asked if that also applied to men on ships in the navy. But then I always did live dangerously).

I was somewhat disturbed recently to note that Julie Bindel claims that being gay is a choice. Disturbed because she used it to justify her strange negativity toward men.

The question surely is, how much control should society exercise over other people's bodies?

Should society legislate on hair style, for example? Or clothes? Should tatoos be banned, or earings? Do any of us need to justify our decisions at all?

If I or anyone chooses a surgical procedure, on our own body, with the express intention of altering our relationship with the rest of society, do we seriously need to justify that?

Your question makes me wonder. What about homosexual men who desires to have their genitals inverted but don't wish to become females? Josef Kirchner is an example. Should they be allowed to express their wish that way? Is there any psychological or medical harm for doing that?