Susan's Place Transgender Resources

It would seem that lately many people have brought to light that transition is "selfish". While I do not disagree that it is a selfish thing to do, I would think it would be more selfish than suicide. In transition you rely on others much more, disrupting their lives permanently on a daily basis while they have to look and deal with you, where as with suicide, they may be upset for a bit but would go on business as usual after a month or so, possibly thinking you were just a sad and crazy mixed up individual and probably better off. They may think that for their own selfish reasons, happy that you didnt drag them through the transition process and spared them the embarassment as well as yourself.

I've heard arguments on both sides that make sense and I have written things down in a list and it seems that suicide wins hands down everytime as far as being less selfish. Now I agree they are both very selfish acts but dying seems to be the least selfish. I would like to ask the members here to provide reasons why transition is less selfish than dying.

Who is being more selfish? Society (family and friends) by stopping you from doing what you need to be happy, or you by ignoring those you have obligations to and transitioning?

What's wrong with being selfish?

Melissa

Quote from: Lori on March 12, 2007, 01:26:02 PM
In transition you rely on others much more, disrupting their lives permanently on a daily basis while they have to look and deal with you, where as with suicide, they may be upset for a bit but would go on business as usual after a month or so...

Yup. That's pretty much it.

Transition:
- Wife wastes a couple more years with me, trying to find the justification to leave me without feeling too horribly guilty for it, losing her chance to have kids
- In the meantime, I drain our bank account for therapy, HRT, FFS and SRS
- Mom continues psychotherapy to try and deal with my oh-so-traumatic issue
- Dad tries to support mom
- Work deals with harressment issues, builds me a special bathroom
- I make a dozen or so complete strangers very uncomfortable every day simply by existing and doing daily things

Suicide
- Wife gets a lot of money and can almost retire
- Wife already lost her husband, so although it still hurts, it's more like losing a good friend (who betrayed her terribly). She can deal. She moves on now, while there's still time, marries, has a great sex life and the kids she always wanted
- Parents would be fine. My mom would have a juicy tragedy to need more therapy for, rather than an embarassment to explain
- Work hires a normal replacement not requiring special accomodations or policies. Cheaper. No special issues or problems.

Hmmm.

You are right.  Suicide has the least impact on those you love. I went through this argument with myself so many times. Logically, it seemed the best of the options. I tried to kill myself three times.  In earnest. It didn't take.  So the world is stuck with me.

Cindi

Quote from: Kate on March 12, 2007, 01:51:53 PM
Suicide
- Wife gets a lot of money and can almost retire
- Wife already lost her husband, so although it still hurts, it's more like losing a good friend (who betrayed her terribly). She can deal. She moves on now, while there's still time, marries, has a great sex life and the kids she always wanted
- Parents would be fine. My mom would have a juicy tragedy to need more therapy for, rather than an embarassment to explain
- Work hires a normal replacement not requiring special accomodations or policies. Cheaper. No special issues or problems.

You think those are the only people who would be affected?!?!  Hello!!! What about us too?  I'm certain everyone here would be mourning if you were to kill yourself.  Do you have any relatives or siblings besides your mom and dad?  People can and do adjust to a transition much easier than they do a death.

Melissa

I think you should be very careful when you so glibly discuss the possibility of suicide.  This is not a subject to be treated lightly, it is permenant if carried out successfully and very damaging if it is botched or only partially completed.

We are quite often call selfish and self centered by those around us, we are quite often pushed to the limits of self control.

This has nothing to do with being selfish, this has to do with our living or dying.


Sarah L.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on March 12, 2007, 02:45:26 PM
I think you should be very careful when you so glibly discuss the possibility of suicide.

I agree, and I even debated posting what I did with a friend before sending it, but... I'm not being glib about it - this has been weighing heavily on my mind lately. I've started a similar post numerous times, yet thought better of it because I didn't want to encourage anyone to do something awful. And yet... if we don't get this stuff out in the open... might that not be worse?

Kate

I am still in 'thought' mode regarding this subject and have been for years.

I am not sure why I have been thinking about this subject for so long without actually making a decision or coming to a conclusion, maybe I am afraid to die, perhaps it's because there are so many variables, so many unknowns, that I can't account for.  I am not sure if religion, morality, or my sensitivity to others are playing a role in my thoughts on the subject, well, I am sure they are, but I am not sure to what extent they are.

Leigh, while I did not always agree with her views, once said that transition isn't anymore couragous then running out of a building on fire is couragous.

It's true enough that it cast a shadow of a doubt on my certainty that I would eventually suicide.

Under that analogy, suicide would be akin to propping your feet up and seeing if anything good was on Television while flames came through the very walls around you.

Transition and Suicide.

The underlying question is whether life is worth living, not right now, but forever more.

If any path you choose, other than suicide, could not possibly make life worth living, than suicide is the only viable option.  However, you can't rely on a decision about the future at any single moment in time existing in the past.  What I mean by that, is that, other than living, there is no accurate way to know whether the future is worth living for; simply put, you would be guessing.

The more facts you have to reach a decision, the more accurate that decision will be.
Facts take time to research and gain.

Incidentally, this is why interpreted languages (vs. compiled languages) are so much more dynamic, however, the tradeoff is that they are slower, they wait until they have more facts during runtime to do variable binding whereas compiled languages bind to memory ... blah, off subject, sorry.

My point was, that this is very similiar.
The more facts you have, the more decisions you make based on those facts, the more accurate your decision will be.  In life, you gain those facts by living and making decisions based on those facts

Now, the second part of the arguement.  Is it more viable and / or selfless to commit suicide vs. transitioning.

It's very difficult to say.

There are very clear tradeoffs to each.

1.
Transitioning (pro):
You are making decisions based on facts you have learned and / or accepted to try and find happiness in your life.  You are still here making decisions and experiencing life and hopefully, learning.

Suicide (con):
You just finished making any future decisions based on, at most, a guess.

2.
Transitioning (pro):
Your loved ones always have the oppertunity to see you, albiet you don't look exactly the same as before, but, as has been said many times, you are still you and they have the option of coming and visiting, or talking to you whenever you or they wish. ie. you aren't gone forever

Suicide (con):
You have eliminated any possibility of your loved ones ever speaking to you or seeing you ever again based on a decision you have made.

3.
Transitioning (con)
You could be ridiculed, mocked, and you could hurt those around you very much.

Suicide (con)
You will hurt those around you very much, granted, you won't have to deal with the ridicule and mockery which is a definate bonus.  But, either through transition or suicide, it's going to hurt those around you.

------------------------------------------

Many of you know my views on this subject.

For now, I am sticking around trying to ascertain whether it is possible that life will get any better than this.
I am still fact finding.  Suicide is, in my mind, much more selfish than transitioning.  That does not mean that suicide isn't the road to discount, it's very personal and you yourself have to find your own answers on the subject.

with love,
Jessica

This is not a rational issue. The rationality of transitioning vs suicide vs stuffing everything and distracting yourself til cancer or a heart attack claims us is not rational. Thinking things through is a good thing.. but IMHO is not the major player in all of this. We don't transition because it's the most reasonable alternative. People don't suicide because it has the most positive aspects. It is deep-down gut stuff. Hard to describe.
My 2 cents.
Blessings, Tara

Quote from: Jessica on March 12, 2007, 03:28:07 PM
The more facts you have to reach a decision, the more accurate that decision will be.

I don't think so, at least not in this case. The darn problem *shifts* as you go, the very context changes as you transition. No matter what you think it's going to be like, you're wrong, lol. Oh sure, you can predict some of the factual, objective things... but you CAN'T predict how you'll feel about them when you get there. That's what is so maddening about this... every day is like a new world with new priorities and perspectives.

The ONLY thing you can really do is TRY it. Transition. See how it goes. See if you can deal with it. Otherwise, it remains a perpetually unanswerable question. At least that was my take on it. I HAD to know, I HAD to try - and see how far I could take it, knowing I may very well not be able to finish. Looking back now, I know I *expected* to not make it... at least not much farther, not past this wall of fear I seem to be being squashed against now. Now that things are becoming more and more real, and I see that I really, honestly am heading into a transitioned life (omg!), it's scaring the heck out of me.

Not because this isn't what I so desperately need (everything so far has been the answers to my prayers), but just the fear of forever being a transsexual in everyone's eyes, rather than a woman... for the rest of my life. I don't know if I could take that day after day...

Kate

I think the first thing you need to ask, and much more important than transition vs. suicide is this:
"What's the goal of <my?> life?"

Do you have a goal?

Is trying to reach that goal selfish?

What are you willing to do to reach that goal?

If someone you care about has a goal and that goal is diametrically opposed to your goal, why should they get to reach their goal, but you don't?  Why should you get to reach your goal but they don't?  Is it possible that you can reach both of your goals together? apart? What's the best decision in regards to that?

When someone on these boards referred to fear, I believe what they meant was the following:
One is terrified of doing what needs to be done to attempt to reach one's goals because of the __________ consequences of the actions required to reach that goal.

Ask yourself if your goal is truely reachable.
For instance, if your goal is to never hurt anyone, ever.
Fairly obviously, you are setting yourself up for misery, because that can't happen.

Once you have a clearly defined goal for your life, it is my belief that you can begin to use analysis to begin asking the more difficult questions you are posing.

Jessica

When I considered suicide it was to "show them" or to "make them feel guilty or sorry" for me. It wasn't selfishness that motivated my thoughts.  It was an ending to punish those who knew me. I finally realized that sentiment had no logic. It had no resolution in MY favor.

When you are in the depths of depression, you can not think clearly. Rationalization is pointless. Thoughtful consideration of the facts does not work. Your bias is overwhelming.

I'm sure that there are many reasons people consider for suicide. In the depths of self doubt, who knows what you can dream up.

But since you are down there, in your hole, thinking, positioning yourself, and wondering, consider that you might be at the bottom. It may be that any small thing can improve your life. Know that it is possible for things to get better. Know that your depression is an illness that you can learn to deal with. Reason that. You can logically tell yourself that you have this illness of depression and you can get better. That logic can defeat depression.

Transsexualism doesn't create the depression. But it does seem that depression and the T walk hand in hand. Transsexualism brings its own challenges to the party. It is the fruitlessness of life as we see it that prompts many of us to build a new ladder and climb out of the hole we are in.  We call it transition.

The logic escapes us. The reality of improvement helps us feel the results of a cause and effect relationship. It is these results that motivates us and moves us forward.

Suicide is a reaction to the external forces we face and live with. It is a reaction to those around us. It is not an act we do for ourselves. So, yes, we are selfish. Moving beyond suicide and its grip is selfish. Pushing positive influences into our lives makes US better. Fulfilling our self realization is a selfish act which moves us beyond the feelings of inadequacy and doubt.

Life is worth living my friend. It is beautiful. I look out my window as I type this and see the velvet fluorescent green of fresh grass covering the hills. The cattle are tending to their calves and birds are singing. It is a moment to cherish. It is a moment of life.

Find the source of your anguish and deal with it. Get medical help if you need. But you must cease the endless thought process of logic where suicide is concerned. It leads nowhere and unfortunately has dire consequences.

Pick yourself up. Enjoy this moment for what it is. And know that you can overcome the obstacles and enjoy life.


Chin up!

Cindi

QuoteI am not sure why I have been thinking about this subject for so long without actually making a decision or coming to a conclusion, maybe I am afraid to die, perhaps it's because there are so many variables, so many unknowns, that I can't account for.  I am not sure if religion, morality, or my sensitivity to others are playing a role in my thoughts on the subject, well, I am sure they are, but I am not sure to what extent they are.

QuoteBut you must cease the endless thought process of logic where suicide is concerned. It leads nowhere and unfortunately has dire consequences.

God, I wish I could stop.

Jessica

Jessica,

Do something. It matters not what. Just do something. Work on your goals list, develop a hobby, go hang gliding. Anything. Put yourself in social situations with real live people around you. Please.

Cindi

Quote from: Sarah Louise on March 12, 2007, 02:45:26 PM
I think you should be very careful when you so glibly discuss the possibility of suicide.  This is not a subject to be treated lightly, it is permenant if carried out successfully and very damaging if it is botched or only partially completed.

We are quite often call selfish and self centered by those around us, we are quite often pushed to the limits of self control.

This has nothing to do with being selfish, this has to do with our living or dying.


Sarah L.

While I will agree with this, I will agree with Kate more. This needs to be talked about. For those in this position, it may be good for them to read how those that transitioned got past this part/delima. I cannot imagine very many TS folk not reaching this stage of life at least once.

I'm very intersted in how people rationalised past this point and got onto transition instead of suicide because "sometimes dead is better" (Stephen King Pet Cemetery) keeps bouncing around my mind. Obviously we won't be hearing from those that chose the other path unfortunately, because I would be interested to read or hear how they didnt get past this stage and why they couldn't or didn't rationalise it.

There is no crystal ball to see into the future to see if life will be better or worse than it is now. I do like Kate's plan and that is to at least try, and if successful things will be o.k. If they fail then you always have an out. Its almost genious when thought about in that light. But one must go in trying to succeed, not try to fail or give up hope or chicken out when you are about to be finished....so I think you need to stay the course Kate and at least give it a chance and finish up. Who knows what tomorrow will be like. Instead of playing victim and feeling bad for your bosses redoing a bathroom for you, be grateful and work harder.

I'm still digesting your words Jessica, unfortunately we are at the same stage and although some feel this process is not rational, it must become rational in one's mind before any further progress can be made.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 12, 2007, 04:30:52 PM
When I considered suicide it was to "show them" or to "make them feel guilty or sorry" for me. It wasn't selfishness that motivated my thoughts.  It was an ending to punish those who knew me. I finally realized that sentiment had no logic. It had no resolution in MY favor.

When you are in the depths of depression, you can not think clearly. Rationalization is pointless. Thoughtful consideration of the facts does not work. Your bias is overwhelming.


Cindi

And that is exactly why I would do it right now. To make everybody sorry, to teach them a lesson. In the end they will still be breathing and in a couple of months the tears will stop flowing and life will be o.k. for them. But to transition, wouldnt that be making them pay everyday you are alive?

Years ago I thought of the idea of suicide.  I tried to imagine how much easier it would be just to end it, rather than live life, fight for my life.  I didn't consider that it would be selfish, and it has never entered into my thoughts, much like the way I feel that transition is selfish.  I see transition as something that I must do no matter what, and if I die trying I that as doing something for my life, no one else's, as in the end I will be the one who will be living my life, not my mom or dad, not my children, not my wife, not my friends not my... anyone else.  Of course their feelings were/are taken into account, but in the end it is my life.

I feel that suicide means that you have given up before seeing the results.  Getting the facts is no where near the same as living your life, it means that we have given up hope on life, on transition.  Life is a journey not a destination and the same can be said for transition as it too is a journey, not a destination.

Nope I am who I am, I can't change that and neither can anyone else, and I want to see for myself how my saga actually ends, not imagine how it will end, and do something premature.

Hey but that's me :)

Steph

Perhaps I can offer my own take on how I have dealt with getting past suicide.  there have been several times so far where I have been prepared to take my own life.  It usually occurred when it appeared a successful transition did not seem to be a possibility.  I felt that the pain and suffering I was to face on the road ahead of me was not something I could face and that I may as well end it early.  In order to get out of this, I have ended up talking to friends (most of them from this forum) and that has helped me past some of the rough spots.  Sometimes the load is too much to bear, but if you let your friends help you, then you can make it.

I have thought about attempting to kill myself before just to show others how serious I felt about this, but for that I would have done some kind of suicide attempt I knew would fail.  I never got around to doing that.

Melissa

P.S. Kate, remember our deal!

Yes, you need to ask yourself what you really want.  Do you want to live as a woman?  Do you just want to die or do you feel it is your only option?  For me, I didn't want to commit suicide, but I felt that I had to in my situation.  Once I realized I didn't have to, I became once again determined to get through this.

Melissa

Exorcism... a variant of that theme was tried on me too.  Guess what. It didn't take either.

Cindi

                I have been to the edge.  It wasn't an experience that included weighing the options and consequences. It was experiencing the "God awful feeling". The unbearable pain and pressure in your brain, heart and soul. The fog of pain leaves no room for thought. It was joy fantasizing about the wonderful calm and painless state that would follow. In the end I realized the pain would continue in the hearts of those that loved me long after it warmly oozed out of me. There is no end for them. It's the cowards way. Moving forward is the answer. Push on.



beth

Quote from: beth on March 12, 2007, 06:58:47 PM
                I have been to the edge.  It wasn't an experience that included weighing the options and consequences. It was experiencing the "God awful feeling". The unbearable pain and pressure in your brain, heart and soul. The fog of pain leaves no room for thought. It was joy fantasizing about the wonderful calm and painless state that would follow. In the end I realized the pain would continue in the hearts of those that loved me long after it warmly oozed out of me. There is no end for them. It's the cowards way. Moving forward is the answer. Push on.



beth

Beth has just summed up my feelings - except when I am feeling down I care less about what other people think - I just have a big pitty session - like last friday night. As a consequence of that my doctor has just upped my meds to ensure I do not do anything silly  :'(. Wish I never thought about it in the first place but with depression these thoughts come.

Alice

I have a better relationship with my daughter now than I ever did pre-transition. I helped pick out her wedding dress. Could I have done that by committing suicide? I didn't drain our bank account when I transitioned. We didn't have anything in the bank while I was married. (I've still not figured that out 'cuz I'm paying her $1100/month and still saving.)
Either way, she gets house.
As for my brothers and sisters, they couldn't care less. My mother, after the initial shock, asked a few questions, thought about it a bit and said Ok as if I were picking out a pair of shoes.
I'd have to say transitioning was the least selfish thing I could have done. The only ones who really noticed were the bosses at the bible software company I worked for. No loss. I make twice as much now.
My 2cents worth

Karen Lyn     :icon_female:

For those of you with children I will now complicate this issue further that is in my mind. Cindi posted earlier this year about getting a letter from her daughter. I could not handle that. I'd rather be dead it would hurt me so much. I don't know how she got through that. I know I wouldnt want to, whether I would make it or not, I don't want to find out.

As things stand now my son is 19 months old and my wife as of right now would not keep him from me. We would continue our relationship I suppose as Maddy and son (not a daddy and not a mommy but a conversion of the two).  Now I've read about how many people feel how much this would screw up my son's life and how selfish it would be to do that to him. I've lost my opportunity to transition when he was born and should hold out. But if I get pushed to the brink of suicide and off myself where would he be at then? But suppose I do transition and later in life he hates me for it. Maybe he won't care? Maybe he will be twice as screwed up knowing I did transition or knowing I did kill myself and why didnt people just let me do what I needed to be happy so I could still be around???

There is no crystal ball to see that future and know telling how he will react either way. Sure children need loving parents. He needs his daddy...

Oh boy I am in a pickle now. I'm alright for the time being but I know just like in years past that gid push is going to nail me again and its been worse every time leaving me at an elevated level every time it tapers off. This crap just gets worse and worse. I have no idea what the future holds, I cannot see it.

Quote from: Lori on March 12, 2007, 08:15:09 PM
Now I've read about how many people feel how much this would screw up my son's life and how selfish it would be to do that to him.

How would these people know it screws up a child's life?  Have they transitioned?  How do you define screwed up anyhow?

Melissa

Quote from: Lori on March 12, 2007, 08:15:09 PM
But if I get pushed to the brink of suicide and off myself where would he be at then? But suppose I do transition and later in life he hates me for it. Maybe he won't care? Maybe he will be twice as screwed up knowing I did transition or knowing I did kill myself and why didnt people just let me do what I needed to be happy so I could still be around???

Lori, I think your son needs you to be there for him.  I think he will accept you for who you are because he will only care that you love him.  Could he not learn to hate a perpetually angry and depressed father?  Isn't that what could very well happen if you tried to repress this for the rest of your days?  You can't know how he will grow up to react to your decisions if you're not around to see it.

What kept me from threading the rope through the eyebolt in the garage ceiling is that there are other humans who need and rely on me.  I didn't stop because of myself, I stopped because I feel a responsibility to others.

I believe we ARE here for a reason, and I'm equally convinced that our gender issues are not a mistake!  To throw it all away seems the very definition of that old, misused word, "sin."

The best chances for all our families is towards life, not away from it.

hugs
helen

Lori:

You have to understand that people usually think that transsexuals are not capable of raising a child; there are many myths behind this way of thinking.   You have the right to be with your son, see him grow up and share his life.  Fortunately there's lots of help out there, for there are many parents facing the exact same issues.


Transparentcy (http://www.lasimpson.org/PARENTS.html)

Transparentcy 2 (http://www.transparentcy.org/)

Another link (http://www.lasimpson.org/)

Resources (http://www.transparentcy.org/Resources-Family.htm)


tink :icon_chick:

It would seem that lately many people have brought to light that transition is "selfish".

?!?!?!??? And I thought that I heard it all.

While I do not disagree that it is a selfish thing to do,

It may be true in cases of TS that are somewhat mild and accordingly the condition could be reasonably accommodated with minimal alteration to self and life without inducing major disruptions or actual severances of relationships, I have to believe that such a scenario represents the minority of us.

I would think it would be more selfish than suicide. In transition you rely on others much more, disrupting their lives permanently on a daily basis while they have to look and deal with you,

Again, the underlying premise posited is that transition is categorically self-centered and selfish, notwithstanding variances of affliction. I do not at all concur with this, as was stated. Additionally, people must make accommodations in other cases of neuro-developmental anomaly and 'misconfiguration'; why should those of us who were forced to deal with TS be the exception, here?

Love accommodates.

where as with suicide, they may be upset for a bit but would go on business as usual after a month or so, possibly thinking you were just a sad and crazy mixed up individual and probably better off.

I beg to differ, hon. None of us knows the extent how the extent and degree of how our lives touch and affect those of others, how people feel about us on a personal level--nor can we possibly know how our absence or death, especially by suicide, will affect others close to us and for how long.

The suicide of a loved one has the power to destroy the lives of others, make no mistake about this. It even has served as the initiator for the suicides of those others referred to.

This is not so simple and capsulized and suicide can and has destroyed the lives of others whom were close.

It is easy and convenient to downplay and discount the potential effect that one's suicide would have on others, but it doesn't represent reality.


They may think that for their own selfish reasons, happy that you didnt drag them through the transition process and spared them the embarassment as well as yourself.

Conversely, they may not. And it is possible that while they indeed imagined 'being embarrassed' by the transition of a loved one, it pales in comparison to the emotional impact that they would suffer, if that loved one destroyed themselves.

I've heard arguments on both sides that make sense and I have written things down in a list and it seems that suicide wins hands down everytime as far as being less selfish. Now I agree they are both very selfish acts but dying seems to be the least selfish. I would like to ask the members here to provide reasons why transition is less selfish than dying.

Honey, again, I could not disagree more with your premise and 'comparative analysis.' Be it observed that if one wants something badly enough, they will ardently cull reasons and rationalizations by which to support their argument, no matter how flawed, faulty and grossly biased and constricted their initial foundational premise is.

That's a dangerous thing to do.

Who is being more selfish? Society (family and friends) by stopping you from doing what you need to be happy, or you by ignoring those you have obligations to and transitioning?

Using myself as an example here: mine own is of such degree where it is 'transition or die' for me.

Two in my family have accepted me, because they love me notwithstanding. One brother [so far] thinks that I am a pervert [without overtly vocalizing this] and told me one time, "What are you going to do during family get-togethers? How am I going to explain this to my children?"

So far, none of the Christians who I know personally [including my soon to be ex-spouse, but there are other emotional force vectors at work in this situation] or have interfaced with relative to my TS, consider me to nothing more than a pervert and egregiously flawed spiritually or morally.

Yet, they adduce nothing substantive to justify their opinions.

These people love me to whatever degree, but is it incumbent upon me to base major life decisions upon the unsubstantiated opinions of these others?

Are these living my life and having to negotiate and resolve a condition which I did not ask for and positively identified only recently?

During a very serious TS related emotional crisis not long ago, my spouse was preparing to go to worship on one Sunday morning (we attend different congregations) and walked back into the bedroom where I was sitting at my desktop system, staring at the monitor.

She sat on the bed and I could see in her lovely face, the tears forming and she aksed me if I was going to be OK.

That struck me as odd, as I never vocalized intention or ideation. But I had decided that after she left, I would go to an obscure place with my gun, one hollow point round chambered, with intent.

I just looked at her, surprised, and could feel myself beginning to cry in my agony.

She began to cry and said to the effect,

"I don't want to come home and find you with your head blown off, lying upon the floor!"

Well, at that point I just lost it and there we both were, crying together.

What do you suppose that my suiciding would do to her?

But she then said something else to me that 'hit home':

"I would rather that you lived on as Rhonda, than to kill yourself and leave me [in this world] without you."

That sentence spoke volumes, to say the least.

One cannot know how many lives that she touches and affects, nor of the potentially disastrous affect that her suicide would have upon those others.

Is doing what you need to do to preserve your very life, that which constitutes rank selfishness?

And this is what transition means for many or even most of us. I don't know; I'm not omniscient.

This is not so simple an 'equation' to solve and one really has no idea as to the degree and extent of the ramifications that one's suicide will have upon others.

Since when are we bound to accommodate the unsubstantiated and quite often willfully ignorant opinions and 'sensibilities' of others, even that of love ones and family?

And WHY?.

Why do our lives rate less than theirs?

Do we not have a right to be who we really are?

Rhonda

Well Rhonda, as much as I would love to hear those words from my spouse, she would rather I blew my head off then to transition. You cannot imagine how that makes me feel, but that is the truth. I would be better off dead in her eyes and I am betting she can hardly wait until I do it so she can be free from me and my issues. Perhaps that comes from being depressed herself and the only reason she is here is for her kids. Living with a TS doesnt make life any better for her and to transition would just embarass her so much I have no idea what she would do. Honestly I'm terrorfied of her and she doesnt even know it.

Quote from: Lori on March 13, 2007, 08:46:28 AM
as much as I would love to hear those words from my spouse, she would rather I blew my head off then to transition.

Well geez, then what relationship are you "saving" by not transitioning? Forget the whole TSism issue - is this someone you should be with anyway?

I get the "for the sake of the kids" thing, but even so... they have to pick up on that hidden undercurrent of loathing and hate, ya know? It doesn't exactly sound like a "loving and nurturing environment" to be growing up in.

Look Lori, it is what it is. You didn't suddenly decide to be TS one day, you were always this way. You (we) got into situations (marriage) we perhaps might have avoided, had we known then what we know now. But we didn't, we made the best choices we could at the time, and now we're here. It's done. So all you can do now is face facts, accept that you ARE a woman, decide what that means to both of you, and try to fix things while minimizing the damage. The fact that we may be responsible for getting us and our spouses into this mess does NOT mean we're obligated to perpetuate it.

I'll admit it's very, very tempting to just check out and and make things simple for our spouses. But I don't think it's entirely a noble gesture of self-sacrafice; instead, I think that temptation is mostly rooted in fear: fear of accepting the responsibility for making some hard choices ahead, and fear of what our post-trans future will be like. We're just doing it AGAIN, just like when we got married, playing out the same stupid drama of avoiding our responsibilities, and hurting everyone around us in the process.

Kate

If you feel that transitioning is being selfish, then counteract that by doing generous things.  I certainly couldn't have helped as many people as I had if I had killed myself.  You can help more people when you're alive than when you're dead.  You did not factor that into your equation.

Melissa

I am in a similar situation as most. Wonderful wife and three beautiful children 23, 10 & 8 that make my life worth living. Family and children financially set and i have a good exceutive job. But I am miserable when not directly invloved with them. And I can not find peace and happiness through tried half way measures.

So when I really get depressed, like last night, my thoughts turn to suicide. But I can no more do that to my wife and children than to transition. Either way I will negatively impact there lives forever. And to pass on a similar life changing event to my children as my parents did to me is unfathomable.

But wait......isn't there another choice? Why not move out and let them re-adjust their life to that loss first? Then start my transition privately without them watching every change and emotional up and down. Then a year or two from now, when hopefully they are stable in what ever life they have created, I can then tell them of my transition and it won't be two significant losse at the same time. Maybe at least this would spare them the daily uncertainty, instability in the marraige and bad feelings that transitioning at home would cause.

Do I wish that I could transition and stay in this marraige and family? Of course I do! But do I really think that is possible? Of course not.

This seems a much better option than selfishly trying to hold on to them for my comfort? I'm choosing this path. They have no interest or reap any significant benefit in this decision. Why make them an unwilling spectator to my very difficult and painful choice? To me, that would be selfish.

I'm going to have loss no matter which decision I choose. Not transition, and I am forever unhappy and depressed but with daily beautiful moments with my children. Transition, and in the least I will lose the daily moments, closeness and special relationship I have as a husband and male Father. And with the possibility of losing all. But I would hope to gain peace and happiness with self.

What do you all think? Has anyone done it this way?

Gwen

Quote from: Gwen C on March 13, 2007, 12:41:39 PM
Why make them an unwilling spectator to my very difficult and painful choice?

Because they LOVE you. Of course it involves pain and re-adjustments for everyone, but... shouldn't they be *included* in the process? You're a family, you love one another, and when a family member is troubled, don't you all rally around to support and HELP that person?

This isn't your fault, you're not "doing" this to anyone - it's a pre-existing condition which is making you miserable. It's not something to hide, or feel ashamed of, or "shelter" anyone from. It's something to ask for help with, a time to turn to those you love for support.

Naive? Yes, probably. But it's how it SHOULD be, darn it.

Kate

Quote from: rhonda13000 on March 13, 2007, 08:03:50 AM
where as with suicide, they may be upset for a bit but would go on business as usual after a month or so, possibly thinking you were just a sad and crazy mixed up individual and probably better off.
Rhonda[/color][/font][/size][/i]

I disagree...if someone I loved comitted suicide, I don't think I'd ever truly get over it.  My mother passed away in 2003, and I still miss her to this day.  My roomate still mourns the passing of her spouse even though it was 5 or 6 years ago.   People may go on with their lives, but they will never truly be "over it" if someone close to them passes away or commits suicide.

I was going to respond, but truthfully I don't have an answer.

Sarah L.

I have a ton to say on this particular subject as it has been in the forefront of my thoughts for years.
I however, do not want to influence anyone by my words, actions, deeds, or thoughts.

All I am going to say on the subject is this:

Hope makes all the difference.
If you can find something that provides hope for the future, then you have found your reason to live avoid suicide.

Quote
Do something. It matters not what. Just do something. Work on your goals list, develop a hobby, go hang gliding. Anything. Put yourself in social situations with real live people around you. Please.

I'm trying. 
I work like a dog.
I have tried probably 2 dozen hobbies, most of which I lose interest in.
The only hobby that has kinda stuck (read -- lasted more than a year) is aquariums.
Social situations... Social situations make me pretty uncomfortable.

*hugs*
Jessica

Quote from: Jessica on March 13, 2007, 01:48:51 PM
Hope makes all the difference.
If you can find something that provides hope for the future, then you have found your reason to live avoid suicide.

I TOTALLY agree.

What I'm learning - the hard way - is that as bad as resisting transition can be, it DOES ironically at least maintain a sense of hope by perpetuating the "someday... maybe someday..." dream. Maybe once the kids are grown... maybe someday my wife will come around... maybe someday they'll invent this super-feminizing pill... maybe someday...

As long as that hope of being female remains - no matter how remote - you can go on. Painful, miserable, but you can go on.

But there usually comes a time when you feel even that hope fading, simply due to running out of time... usually around mid-life... and you either end it all, or roll the dice and transitition.

But transitioning is like betting EVERYTHING on that one roll. I find my hope flickering now from day to day, like a fragile candle flame. Will I pass? Will I be accepted as a woman? Some days I'm joyous and ecstatic at the unfolding miracle, and other days I just know this will NEVER work out for me... and that flame almost, almost goes out.

But thanks to my muse - and all of you - I've managed to carry it this far. And maybe a little farther tomorrow. And the next day...

Kate

Transitioning is nowheres near as selfish as suicide. The latter deprives everyone around you across the board of someone they care about, whereas the former at least leaves it up to them whether they will accept you or not. And quite a few will! As far as having incompatible goals, a spouse can dream of having a husband and a family but can't mandate that you be part of it, and any wife who can't stay with a TS partner post transition likely didn't love the person *inside* and definitely shouldn't have been in what is essentially a lesbian relationship to begin with.

As far as kids, lemme offer my experience from having been one. One parent being moody or angry all the time will make their lives hell. Parents who argue a lot make for just as bad an environment. For a short while I had the opportunity to see what life was like only living with one parent, specifically the one with the more agreeable personality, and actually I liked that situation a lot better.

If you're TS then like any other medical problem you have every right to get it fixed - that means transition. If anyone who isn't you has a problem with it they can go fly a kite. :)

Ending your life would just transfer your misery to everyone you care about.

Hi Lori,
Yes, choosing living or dying can be a great dilemma to those who are oppressed.  Blacks, I've often thought, at least have a network of family and a community where they can feel comfort...where they can feel they have worth and belong.  TS's like us are often on our own, except for those moments when we are able to talk to one another online.

I've had many moments when friends or family have died.  I talked for a period of months with a friend who had terminal cancer but I neve revealed my secret:  there was a part of me that envied their coming death.  I envied dying without suicide -- a disease would take me away and there would be no trauma felt by my friends or family that I had taken myself away.  I knew if I told my cancer-ravaged friend this that she would respond that I was crazy -- that there was too much to live for, too much beauty all around us in nature.  The unfortunate fact is that part of nature is having to live with humans, not the most forgiving or tolerant bunch.  I pondered going somewhere far from people, deep into forests where people were rare.  With bigotry that I face, even being post-op since 1999, I still ponder just getting the heck out of "civilization" and into the wilderness.

I seek to find comforting words for you, my dear Lori.  One of the quotes I like best -- one that's helped me -- is by Los Angeles Times columnist, Jack Smith.  He said that "the purpose of life is to find out what happens next."

When you die, from whatever cause, that option is denied.  Be selfish.  Take the option of finding out what happens next.

Hugs, Teri Anne

Quote from: Kate on March 13, 2007, 01:15:48 PM

Quote from: Gwen C on March 13, 2007, 12:41:39 PM
Why make them an unwilling spectator to my very difficult and painful choice?

Because they LOVE you. Of course it involves pain and re-adjustments for everyone, but... shouldn't they be *included* in the process? You're a family, you love one another, and when a family member is troubled, don't you all rally around to support and HELP that person?

This isn't your fault, you're not "doing" this to anyone - it's a pre-existing condition which is making you miserable. It's not something to hide, or feel ashamed of, or "shelter" anyone from. It's something to ask for help with, a time to turn to those you love for support.

Naive? Yes, probably. But it's how it SHOULD be, darn it.

Kate

Yes Kate, that is how it should be. And God do I wish that society and all would be accepting of our condition and not so judgemental or threatened. I am not ashamed any more of who I am and I'm trying to find a way to not hide anymore.

However, with my wife being a psychologist and the advice I've received from my therapist, I am clear on the impact transitionaing now would have on my younger children. Especially my son. Therefore, I'd think it would be better to suffer in a split family and not fully transitioning for the next 5 to 10 years than to undermine the security and stability of my children.

So I'm trying to find a way to have as much of both as possible. A male relationship with my children and a real life for me away from them. Tall order. But for now this seems the best option.

Thank you for your comments,

Gwen

Quote from: Gwen C on March 13, 2007, 05:03:00 PM

Yes Kate, that is how it should be. And God do I wish that society and all would be accepting of our condition and not so judgemental or threatened. I am not ashamed any more of who I am and I'm trying to find a way to not hide anymore.

However, with my wife being a psychologist and the advice I've received from my therapist, I am clear on the impact transitionaing now would have on my younger children. Especially my son. Therefore, I'd think it would be better to suffer in a split family and not fully transitioning for the next 5 to 10 years than to undermine the security and stability of my children.

So I'm trying to find a way to have as much of both as possible. A male relationship with my children and a real life for me away from them. Tall order. But for now this seems the best option.

Thank you for your comments,

Gwen

I thought that this might work for me as well.  But once I was out of "the house" for about a week,  my direction in life became crystal clear. 

Cindi

I had a few more thoughts, Lori.

In Greek mythology, a "choice between Scilla and Caribdis" is known as a choice between two evils.  Scilla and Caribdis are two rocky points in the Mediteranean Sea and, in the mythology, to sail between them meant sailing between two perils.  I guess that's where you feel you are now.  You are taking the logical choice of sailing between them until you are certain one of the shores is not perilous.  Unfortunately, both transitioning and suicide follow the "law of unintended consequences."  Like getting into war in Iraq for seemingly good reasons, there can be a rude aftermath.  I disagree with your thought that suicide is forgotten after a few months.  Like some have said, suicide can torture family and friends for the rest of THEIR LIVES (not just a few months).  And suicide can lead to others, particularly family, opting for suicide.  Not the best example, but think of Anna Nicolle -- I think she's dead because her son died (though presumably it was an "accident" on both counts).  Suicide is often committed by people who had a suicide in their family.  Not a great legacy to leave your son.  You can't be sure that the unintended consequence of your suicide would be your son committing suicide under the misled thought that, because you did it, it's all right.

As I've said, I've thought, like some here, of suicide.  When I moved to Washington state in Jan. 2007, I told my ex (she's been remarried for several years) that maybe, now that I've sold my place, that this would be a good place to end it -- I mean, she wouldn't need to worry about selling my assets -- everything was now liquid.  It would be convenient for her and everyone.  She told me that she'd rather I take a long cruise or long vacation.  It was an eye-opener.  I'd thought that I'd ruined her life and here she was telling me, lovingly, to go out and enjoy myself rather than ending it all.  Obviously, she'd be richer if she just took the money now so I LEARNED (not for the first time) that, despite her anger and confusion about my transition, bottom line, she loved me.

Perhaps, your discussing suicide with your wife may elicit a response similar to what my ex told me.  Don't presume her answer.  Her answer may surprise you.

Hugs, Teri

Well Rhonda, as much as I would love to hear those words from my spouse, she would rather I blew my head off then to transition.

That speaks volumes, hon.

You cannot imagine how that makes me feel, but that is the truth.

I can imagine, actually. But in reality, it may not be the truth. Human beings are complex and often completely unpredictable.

Sometimes, things are not at all as they appear.