Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Personally, I'd like to think I still would and passing wasn't at the forefront of my thoughts when I started, it was mostly just wanting to feel right and actually be happy with myself, somehow, someway.


I do understand the importance of it though, as we all want to be seen and accepted as who we feel we are. But I am wondering how many would have stayed in their old lives, unhappy, depressed, etc, if they knew for sure they wouldn't pass.

I think there's very few people who remain totally incapable of passing, especially if they are subjected to extensive HRT and surgeries. I could imagine the expenses of being able to pass might keep someone from transitioning, but as for someone saying that he/she will never pass, it seems like we are own harshest critics and that sort of thinking may have no truth to it. Regardless, I think the hope that we will someday pass is probably what motivates most of us and therefore, it's something worth holding onto. :3

That is a really difficult question... And you probably won't like my answer. But I don't think I could transition in such a situation; though neither could I continue living. I'd end it, but since the thought of leaving a male corpse behind utterly sickens me... I'd have to get creative. I would feel very terrible about how my actions would affect my mom and brothers, but at the same time, I don't think I could stop myself. Not forever.

passability improves with age as many GGs female bodies lose shape and texture and get wrinkles and face hair and the need to be in latest fashion and in thick of social whirl disappears and they become 'lumpen hausfrau' so generally a TS with a bit of dress, hair and makeup sense and some natural female body and face language will blend in reasonably well but the really unlucky TS with the huge bones will perhaps always have problems.

Quote from: Sarah7 on December 16, 2011, 11:07:31 AM
^^

I'd kill myself. Not passing and being happy/comfortable with myself are mutually exclusive. My dysphoria is far more intense than the minimal requirements to pass to other people.

I feel oddly better knowing I'm not the only one here who feels that way.

Quote from: Akashiya Moka on December 16, 2011, 11:01:33 AM
And you probably won't like my answer.

I didn't post this topic to like or dislike responses or anything like that, I was just curious.

And truthfully, if I didn't pass at least somewhat ok, I'm not sure how I would feel. I do know the part of transiton where I was sort of, but not quite, was not enjoyable in the least when out in public.

I was totally unpassable as a 'male' pre transition......and it caused  a lot social problems not to mention people pointing at me,  screaming and cursing and calling me names etcetc.

After years and years of being excluded, in the gayworld too,  verbal abuse etcetc I went into a serious depresson.

I know what it is to be 'unpassable' and no, I couldn't bear it.

Probably I would have turned into a total recluse, being unpassable as a MTF in the end probably killing myself.

I always wanted to be female, but for most of my life I never wanted to transition because I viewed all transsexuals as drag queens with low voices, and I never ever wanted to look like that or sound like that. When I found out about hormones and the fact that you can change your voice, that was when I found the hope and courage for me to want to transition. So no, if I knew I would never pass, I would not transition.

no.

i feel bad in saying this and will never give advice to this question ( at least honestly ), if i didnt pass i wouldve killed myself.

I would answer yes.
I got sorta the same question before and I think its very hard one, But I where transdition and presenting male even before I passed, it where hard but I wouldnt give up for going back to anything ells who wasnt me.

its sucks not to pass, but if you got good friends and people who seen you for who you really are, then your already passing for those and gain the respect you need.

Quote from: Akashiya Moka on December 16, 2011, 11:01:33 AM
That is a really difficult question... And you probably won't like my answer. But I don't think I could transition in such a situation; though neither could I continue living. I'd end it, but since the thought of leaving a male corpse behind utterly sickens me... I'd have to get creative. I would feel very terrible about how my actions would affect my mom and brothers, but at the same time, I don't think I could stop myself. Not forever.

I feel the same.  I loathe the thought of what suicide would do to my family, but I don't know if I could hold it off forever.  I would try, I really would. 

 I wouldn't transition, because doing so and not passing would mean ostracization in this society. In a world that could be accepting I may have, but that's bending the question. No, rather than transition, I would live as a martyr, trying to help the trans cause while being male.

It isn't a great option, but it's better than dying. At least I can still be as flamboyant as I want in this scenario... I'd be myself, but I would continue to avoid mirrors. I'd probably use a female voice too. I'd probably also be on hormones, so that I could at least feel a bit better, emotionally. And seeing as how intimate encounters would frustrate me to no end with a penis, I'd like to get SRS too. And while I'm at it, I would also get FFS. And probably wear feminine clothes, too.

Gee. If I couldn't transition because I couldn't pass, I'd still do all that. I'd just present as "male."

Quote from: toxicblue on December 16, 2011, 12:11:08 PM
I always wanted to be female, but for most of my life I never wanted to transition because I viewed all transsexuals as drag queens with low voices, and I never ever wanted to look like that or sound like that. When I found out about hormones and the fact that you can change your voice, that was when I found the hope and courage for me to want to transition. So no, if I knew I would never pass, I would not transition.

Same! Drag queens have always had a lot more promotion than actual MTFs. For me it was FFS and ability to change voice which encouraged me to look into transitioning - and I came across this online. I always thought hormones didn't do much (and they never seemed to have for me besides making me look younger).

  Being seen as female is extremely important to me so with that said if there was absolutely no way i could ever pass even with surgery then i wouldn't transition. Just like the others i'd probably commit suicide & if i somehow failed at that then i would probably start doing massive amounts of drugs and end up overdosing so either way i'm dead.  :(

For me personally, I passed the point where I felt to transition or not was a choice over 2 years ago. I was imploding trying to avoid it. I am pre-everything, having had no means to seek counseling, HRT, beard removal, much less anything else. Nevertheless, I have begun transitioning in my personal life. My friends and adoptive family know me as me, refers to me by my chosen name (which I have to thank and bless them for. They all took it in stride and just started doing it), and use the correct pronouns for me. I even have occasional forays into the public world presenting as myself, though my relationship with that is shaky often.

So as to whether I would transition, I don't feel I really have a choice in the matter. However, I do worry often whether I could handle the way things are for me now (rarely truly passing) forever. I wish I was a stronger person, but sadly I suspect that if never passing was a reality, it would lead to my end.

yes, I would, for the simple reason that is not about the society I live with, but rather an act of Independence, and assertion of who I am, discarting a role imposed on me, releasing my inner femaleness,

Yes I would, definitely. Removing testosterone and my beard are necessary to me to live, even if I never pass.

 I'm quite hung up on my looks, but..
I prefer to feel like a woman more then I desire for other people to calculate whether or not I pass in their eyes.

I'd transition
And I would be fighting my whole life to be accepted as a woman, no matter what it took in that situation.

This topic is very disheartening, as it hits a pretty deep nerve for me. I've been feeling lately that I would probably agree with those about suicide. If I felt for the rest of my life the way I felt leading up to coming here and seeking help, I couldn't bear it. I have strong-willed feelings against suicide as I'm a member of the local To Write Love On Her Arms chapter at my university and have "Here's to life" tattooed on my arm. It would save me for awhile, but I just wouldn't know how long I could bear it. Sorry to be another Debbie Downer in this thread...

Quote from: Kelly J. P. on December 16, 2011, 01:13:24 PM
Gee. If I couldn't transition because I couldn't pass, I'd still do all that. I'd just present as "male."

Kelly, reading your post made me smile :) In that situation, I would probably do the same thing and do my best to become active in the community. It's been something I've been thinking about a lot since coming on here and figuring myself out. Now I have a reason to speak up, a cause to really push for. Heck, that might even invalidate what I typed above. I can guarantee, though, that I would be a hot mess every day lol ;D :icon_nervious: :icon_no:

I was thinking about this like yesterday and it had my really depressed all crying and stuff. The conclusion I came to was that regardless of if I pass or not, transition is making me happier and so I would still continue regardless, though I'll never be truly comfortable in my skin until I feel I make a passable preferably attractive woman.

Though it's pretty common for I think trans people to have spills of "Woe is me, I'll never pass, just like at this huage man face" and then spills of "Damn girl, you looking fiiiiiine~" I know it happens to me a lot.

When I started transition, I was pretty sure I would never pass (and still feel that way)... but, meh, I am ok with it.

Since I knew that the effects of hormones were so random, I decided to go into things in a "one day at a time" type of approach. I don't know where I will end up, but as long as it is in a different direction than where I was headed... I figure I am ahead :P

It depends if you are single or not.

If you have a family don't do it.

If you are an only child and therefore the one hope of your parents, then don't do it.

Transitioning is a luxury. A luxury, people have done without for 1000's of years.

If it's going to destroy your life, don't do it. There are more important things in life than touchy feely gender identity.

I'm transitioning because I can. I feel I will look reasonably alright. It makes me happier and calmer than being a man and I have no responsibilities which I'd be shirking.

It's not a scientifically proven or god given right to me. I do feel feminine on the inside but that's about as much justification I can attach to it.

Fionna:

I feel my feelings of dysphoria were so overwhelming, I had no other path to follow but do it or end my life. What you said surely applies to you, but not to everyone.

For me, it is not a touchy feely identity as you mentioned. Anyway, I suppose if transition was simply NOT possible, I would find other ways to struggle, but I feel it is such a basic need, that I'd simply do it no matter what odd was stacked agains't me.

I would.

I've got to agree with Bird with the feelings of dysphoria being so overwhelming. It's not something I'm doing because I can, because it's not an easy path to take, it's something I'm doing because I know I have to.

The way fionnabell seems to see it is that if there's someone else in your life you shouldn't pursue a path that will be rocky but inevitably make you happy (at least that's how I read her post), provided on your experience dysphoria, I know that for my it was and still is terrible crushing feeling that it has me in tears several times a week, it's not a "touchy feely" thing that could just be brushed off. Like I said before I transition to feel comfortable in my skin, I'm not transitioning for my family and they shouldn't have any effect to slow me down.

Just because you have a different experience of transition doesn't mean everyone else is the same.

I would transition and people would have to F'in deal with it. Hell, I only pass 70% but I work and live as a woman anyway. I'm a girl, they won't get anything else. They adjust.


Edit: Fionna's post made me laugh. I totally ripped those guidelines apart. I'm better off for it now. Winner.

I have to agree with Emma, the post of Fiona made my day.
I hope she wasn't serious, but only joking.
I have no other way to interprete it.

Quote from: EmmaM on December 16, 2011, 06:38:57 PM

Edit: Fionna's post made me laugh. I totally ripped those guidelines apart. I'm better off for it now. Winner.

I wasn't setting guide lines. Quite the opposite, in fact. Saying ,I 'm doing it because i can is a lot less limited than adhering to political motivated fake science.

I'm just trying to add some honesty to the discussion.

Quote from: Nurse With Wound on December 16, 2011, 06:30:48 PM
I've got to agree with Bird with the feelings of dysphoria being so overwhelming. It's not something I'm doing because I can, because it's not an easy path to take, it's something I'm doing because I know I have to.

The way fionnabell seems to see it is that if there's someone else in your life you shouldn't pursue a path that will be rocky but inevitably make you happy (at least that's how I read her post), provided on your experience dysphoria, I know that for my it was and still is terrible crushing feeling that it has me in tears several times a week, it's not a "touchy feely" thing that could just be brushed off. Like I said before I transition to feel comfortable in my skin, I'm not transitioning for my family and they shouldn't have any effect to slow me down.

Just because you have a different experience of transition doesn't mean everyone else is the same.

What I'm saying is, betray people who depend on you if you want but I won't believe you that you had no choice and neither will the mainstream.

Quote from: Bird on December 16, 2011, 06:20:32 PM
Fionna:

I feel my feelings of dysphoria were so overwhelming, I had no other path to follow but do it or end my life. What you said surely applies to you, but not to everyone.

Who are you to just that my dysphoria is any less than yours ? My life was garbage before i became Fiona. I've had a teribble time, but if becoming trans wouldn't be better I wouldn't do it and neither should one single other person.

Quote
For me, it is not a touchy feely identity as you mentioned. Anyway, I suppose if transition was simply NOT possible, I would find other ways to struggle, but I feel it is such a basic need, that I'd simply do it no matter what odd was stacked agains't me.

It's always me me me with us westerners these days isn't it?

Quote from: EmmaM on December 16, 2011, 06:38:57 PM
I would transition and people would have to F'in deal with it. Hell, I only pass 70% but I work and live as a woman anyway. I'm a girl, they won't get anything else. They adjust.


Edit: Fionna's post made me laugh. I totally ripped those guidelines apart. I'm better off for it now. Winner.

You use a males belligerence to express yourself. You boast and bluster.  ;)

Quote from: fionabell on December 16, 2011, 07:17:17 PM
You use a males belligerence to express yourself. You boast and bluster.  ;)

Damn right. I learned hyperbole and confidence from my father.

Ungender it.

Have I posted already? I don't know. Oh well, I'm too lazy to check.

I probably wouldn't if I knew I wouldn't pass. For me, it's not only important for others to view me as my targeted gender, but also for me to see myself as my targeted gender in the mirror. Without that, I'd be miserable my entire life.

I should clarify. It took a long time to ungender it.

You, as a person that transitions because you want to, profess that another should not?

Quote from: fionabell on December 16, 2011, 06:04:30 PM
It depends if you are single or not.

If you have a family don't do it.

If you are an only child and therefore the one hope of your parents, then don't do it.

Transitioning is a luxury. A luxury, people have done without for 1000's of years.

If it's going to destroy your life, don't do it. There are more important things in life than touchy feely gender identity.

I'm transitioning because I can. I feel I will look reasonably alright. It makes me happier and calmer than being a man and I have no responsibilities which I'd be shirking.

It's not a scientifically proven or god given right to me. I do feel feminine on the inside but that's about as much justification I can attach to it.

Quote from: fionabell on December 16, 2011, 07:14:42 PM
Who are you to just that my dysphoria is any less than yours ? My life was garbage before i became Fiona. I've had a teribble time, but if becoming trans wouldn't be better I wouldn't do it and neither should one single other person. It's always me me me with us westerners these days isn't it?

Quote from: fionabell on December 16, 2011, 07:09:55 PM
What I'm saying is, betray people who depend on you if you want but I won't believe you that you had no choice and neither will the mainstream.

This first post was incredibly offensive.  You basically told several of the posters here that they should not transition.  And then when they said they had to or die, you accused them of saying theirs was worse than yours and said you didn't believe them.

None of us transition because we "felt" like it.  Some of us had different coping mechanisms, but to claim that we can't transition unless we followed the one true path is ->-bleeped-<- than thou.

Personally I had been fed so much misinformation that I felt no transpeople could ever pass.  And yet I still found myself having to admit that I could not longer repress those feelings even if it mean others would call a big hulking hairy man in a dress.  It wasn't until I actually started researching modern transsexuality that I realized that I had been fed a load of LIES.  But before I even had any idea I could pass someday, I knew I couldn't deny it any longer.  Now having said that, if I never passed and was constantly mocked it may lead to a shorter life after transition, but I was willing to be that mockery to others as long as I was true to myself.

Well this is rather interesting as I am dealing with this very topic right now.
I have absolutely no idea if I will pass or not, and I am not just saying that either, its not a me me me thing by any means.
I drove myself to the point of madness, trying to give myself some sort of reassurance that its gonna be ok and I will pass one day, but truthfully I dunno, it really could go either way. I am still on HRT, I did decide to go ahead with everything anyway despite not knowing the outcome.
I don't really know how anyone knows if they are gonna pass or not before they start, unless they are already extremely androgenous or fem looking or very young for that matter. I passed the young part as I am starting at age 33, and so far as facially I have some traits that could fall on either side, hence my unknowing. One thing is for sure, I do not pass right now, and I do not even try because there is no point, its only been a few weeks on hrt, for now I am ok just dressing in a way that I feel comfortable.
Also to Fiona, its not a choice, well at least for me it wasn't because if I didn't do this I wouldn't be here now. People have done without for thousands of years?? um, I think not, history tells us a very different story and across many many cultures. Maybe your post was in jest though and I read it wrong.

Miya

In a way, I think we start to transition on the inside, long before we start working on the outside.

But to answer the question, yes, I'd take hormones and be myself in the places I could be, and keep hope that I would be able to pass someday.

I'm really new to all this still but this is one of my biggest concerns. I could handle not having family or old friends if needed. It might be vain or stupid but if I was to do this and transition I would need to feel satisfied with the results. I know I wouldn't last long otherwise.

I don't know what I'm planning yet still working things out, I am pretty sure I won't be able to ever pass satisfactorily for myself. An example since I'm too paranoid to post a pic. There is another thread with a face matching/sex matching fun app. I know it's not perfect, it said I looked 50 something. Though it nailed what I already thought, I got 98% male and closest celeb match was Zach Galifianakis, who if you don't recognize the name is the overweight bearded guy in the Hangover movies Alan. Just doesn't seem the type to pass.

I admit I haven't shaved my beard since high school so I don't know how that would look but I do know I'm too big structured.

I can't say for sure what I might do. I'm on medication already for suicide and depression from before I even realized this or admitted it at least to myself. In fact I wonder if those medications have cleared my head enough to see what the missing part of my life is. But I really feel like something out there is just pushing me harder and harder towards that end, since every time I take a step back from the edge something comes along and shoves me closer than before, even by giving me clarity of myself to a point. Logically though if I can't have a decent life as I am now, and spending the time and hurt for myself and others on transitioning just to fail after, why waste the time and money and feelings? I know others would disagree even without knowing me but I just don't think I'm worth enough for that.

I'm sorry for being long winded and probably depressing.

TL;DR- Bottom line on the question is that right now it's a no, but I'm still confused enough that I can't say that is set in stone. And don't worry I don't plan on any ends in the near future, just not discounting that option. It's one I've held onto almost half my life.

Quote from: fionabell on December 16, 2011, 07:09:55 PM
What I'm saying is, betray people who depend on you if you want but I won't believe you that you had no choice and neither will the mainstream.

I guess it's a good thing I don't have to adhere to you or the "mainstream" then. :)

I find your comments here quite offensive, belittling even, to me and I'm sure other peoples transitions, to be honest. There's voicing your opinion and then there's forcing your opinion.

Well we all need to dream I suppose. I can't wake you up anymore than i can wake up the Nazi forums from their dreams.

I suppose i'll just have to start dreaming to :angel:

I'm curious, if you knew you wouldn't "pass," would you still transition anyway?
I don't and I did.
It turned out better than I thought possible, but at the time of transition, I fully expected to get nothing but rejection and ridicule.
You can see my picture and I'm 5'10 (shrunk from 6')  I doubt that I pass often.  Other than the occasional lout though, people treat me as female and I seem to have a good degree of acceptance by cis-women.
That is enough, as much as I could hope for and better than I expected.

I was on the brink of suicide though at age 53. 
I thought that I might as well transition and see how it went - if it was unbearable, I could always kill myself next week instead.

Quote from: Nurse With Wound on December 16, 2011, 09:22:52 PM
I guess it's a good thing I don't have to adhere to you or the "mainstream" then. :)

Don't act self righteous honey. It's you and everyone else who's trying to make me adhere to you not the other way around. I'm not going to be intimidated by your xenophobic bullying.

Xenophobic bullying? I merely put forth a different view of transition from my experiences to your own and you pretty much say "Yeah your wrong because I say so and everyone else agrees with me", never once did I say you or your believes were wrong only they did not correlate with my own.  >:(

There's no need to get defensive.

transition still allows you to express yourself the way you want to in terms of gender. even if you don't pass, you would still be able to be happier. i think anyone can pass as long as they are willing to work for it. some have it easier than others, but for some, passing is a part of the transition.

Quote from: Steffi on December 16, 2011, 09:26:28 PM
I'm curious, if you knew you wouldn't "pass," would you still transition anyway?
I don't and I did.
It turned out better than I thought possible, but at the time of transition, I fully expected to get nothing but rejection and ridicule.
You can see my picture and I'm 5'10 (shrunk from 6')  I doubt that I pass often.  Other than the occasional lout though, people treat me as female and I seem to have a good degree of acceptance by cis-women.
That is enough, as much as I could hope for and better than I expected.

I was on the brink of suicide though at age 53. 
I thought that I might as well transition and see how it went - if it was unbearable, I could always kill myself next week instead.

you're saying you don't pass? from looking at your picture, i see a woman. i don't know where you don't pass unless it's just your own perception of yourself? you said you doubt that you pass, which doesn't mean an absolute.

For me, I dont think I would choose M2T if I couldnt be M2F. I think I would probably just take T blockers and a low dose of e and not transition but it's hard to know "what ifs" without actually going down a path and living with those choices. I think I can pass someday but I will definately need to give HRT for another year or two. I won't go FT unless I can pass or can't pass as a guy anymore.

Kia Ora,

::) I have a friend whose quite adamant when it comes to the issue of passing/blending in, she said no way would she have considered transitioning if she felt she could not pass...

::) As for myself yes I feel I would have, because at the time it was all about releasing the pressure value at all cost, before I exploded...But as luck would have it, it was society who released the valve for me... I'm fortunate in that I do blend in...

::) For many of us who blend in it was the luck of the draw when Mother Nature was dealing out the gene cards, for some others it's thanks to the magic dollar and the steady hand of the plastic surgeon...

::) My advice for those who feel they might never blend in, NEVER say NEVER, there are many different levels of perceptions in the cisgender world ...

Metta Zenda :)


   

Quote from: Nurse With Wound on December 16, 2011, 09:32:40 PM
Xenophobic bullying? I merely put forth a different view of transition from my experiences to your own and you pretty much say "Yeah your wrong because I say so and everyone else agrees with me", never once did I say you or your believes were wrong only they did not correlate with my own.  >:(

There's no need to get defensive.

Everyone agrees with me?

I can't see anyone agreeing with me on this thread.

I tried to add a shred of morality to the discussion and everyone jumped on me. I'm quite aware of the need to transition. Everyone has basically said that they need to transition more than me. This is what has upset me. Because i have greater morals I'm swept aside as someone who is less trans.

You can say what you like but in life we aren't always entitled to do whatever the hell we want. It's not all about me me me. Our Gender identity issues do not always take precedence over the needs of our loved ones.

what are greater morals? morals are different for everyone. anyway, how is transitioning going to damage family depending on you? they can't still depend on you in the other gender?

from my experience, people need to learn how to depend on themselves. not someone/something else. that is everyones responsibility.

Quote from: fionabell on December 16, 2011, 10:56:24 PM
Everyone agrees with me?

I can't see anyone agreeing with me on this thread.

I tried to add a shred of morality to the discussion and everyone jumped on me. I'm quite aware of the need to transition. Everyone has basically said that they need to transition more than me. This is what has upset me. Because i have greater morals I'm swept aside as someone who is less trans.

You can say what you like but in life we aren't always entitled to do whatever the hell we want. It's not all about me me me. Our Gender identity issues do not always take precedence over the needs of our loved ones.

Hardly everyone is disagreeing, me and two others disagreed with your outlook towards transition, plus that comment was directed at your notion that the mainstream won't accept us as feel female inside and pass off anything that disagrees as "fake science"

I personally never said it was greater then yours but just that the way I experienced GID it was something I could not brush aside for loved ones as I don't live so that my loved ones can be "proud" of me or something. And I found it upsetting and belittling for you to imply that my transition is nothing more than a fickle fantasy of a feminine guy, whereas to me it's something that I've known innate from birth that no matter how corny this sounds; I was female and shouldn't be forced to live as a guy because people I know don't like it. And also what FullMoon19 said, why should me being a girl have to effect my family? Can they not be happy with a daughter or is that a lower title than having a son?

Secondly, "greater morals"? And you say I was on a high horse, what makes your "morals" greater than anyone else's? We all have morals, just because they don't align with yours doesn't make them any lesser. So just as you assumed a few people in here were thinking their transition was above yours and you go and do the exact same thing with your "morals", tab bit hypocritical.

And that is your view of the world, not everyone else's and as someone who seems to live depending on other perceptions of other people you should know that. Sure I might not be "entitled" to everything in the world that I want, but the one thing I should be entitled to is the ability to feel comfortable in my skin not having to fill some pseudo-male role for the love of others. And your right it's not always "me me me" but for something like this and a lot of other things it is.

HELL NO.


But people don't "pass" by one standard or another. You're still gonna retain the gender which you were *born* as. It's not rocket science, you can't turn a male into a female through even the best science. You're still gonna have something that says male...whether it be the birth certificate, voice, shoulders, hands, personality, face, penis, or XY chromosomes. Therefore one should self accept themselves and dgaf... I'm petite and some people still know. OMG, it's the end of the world when they tell me they "knew"...OMFG, it so isn't.

I initially wanted to just become a DQ, but was encouraged to go further because people(blind people) thought I was a girl with short hair while as a boy. I still don't see it, but I am glad I did. Sure beats being a gay slut and my life improved significantly. I make a pretty girl according to some and it's fun!!!

But if I had more of a lifestyle...I'd simply stay a gay boy and live this life on weekends. But my life rocks as whatever the hell  I am calling myself this week!

    :eusa_wall: @ all the fighting in this thread, ugh.


  I probably wouldn't transition if i couldn't pass unless modern science came up with some kind of gene manipulation or something crazy to change my body.   :D

Quote from: Rukia87xo on December 17, 2011, 03:13:58 AM

    :eusa_wall: @ all the fighting in this thread, ugh.


  I probably wouldn't transition if i couldn't pass unless modern science came up with some kind of gene manipulation or something crazy to change my body.   :D

I could become a sharkosexual and spend my life in the sea! I'M COMING FOR YOU SEBASTIAN!

Quote from: Nurse With Wound on December 17, 2011, 03:00:12 AM
Hardly everyone is disagreeing, me and two others disagreed with your outlook towards transition, plus that comment was directed at your notion that the mainstream won't accept us that feel female inside and pass off anything that disagrees as "fake science"

I personally never said it was greater then yours but just that the way I experienced GID it was something I could not brush aside for loved ones as I don't live so that my loved ones can be "proud" of me or something. And I found it upsetting and belittling for you to imply that my transition is nothing more than a fickle fantasy of a feminine guy, whereas to me it's something that I've known innate from birth that no matter how corny this sounds; I was female and shouldn't be forced to live as a guy because people I know don't like it.

Well, I also disagree with Fiona's comments; they were somewhat absurd and not very considerate... :P But I'd rather avoid confrontation. We have too much drama here already.

B-b-b-but I haven't had a good Internet debate in years. ;_;

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 17, 2011, 03:16:15 AM
I could become a sharkosexual and spend my life in the sea! I'M COMING FOR YOU SEBASTIAN!

Damn you! Now I'll have "Under the Sea" in my head for the rest of today!

Quote from: Nurse With Wound on December 17, 2011, 03:28:55 AM
B-b-b-but I haven't had a good Internet debate in years. ;_;
Damn you! Now I'll have "Under the Sea" in my head for the rest of today!

Under the Sea (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgA2xo0HYrE#)

Quote from: Nurse With Wound on December 17, 2011, 03:28:55 AM
B-b-b-but I haven't had a good Internet debate in years. ;_;

~I will debate you. What do you want to debate? :P

Quote from: Akashiya Moka on December 17, 2011, 03:36:02 AM
~I will debate you. What do you want to debate? :P

Republicans vs giant astronaut mantisheads.

As I stumble around, trying to figure out my future, this has been a question I've had to struggle with. I want to pass, that's for sure. I worry about whether the reactions of others, if I don't pass, will end up being worse than what I feel without transitioning.

I think, at its core, it's more about being honest with myself and the world. So...it might take me longer to start transitioning, if I knew I couldn't pass, but I think I would still do it. Especially since my wife is supportive. And especially because I think, when starting, there'll be the fear that I won't pass that I have to work through before I can take those first steps.

Who knows? I'm pre-transition anyway, so I'm probably not the best to answer the question.

I will try to explain Fiona, I think you are feeling a bit trapped in the corner now.
There is no need for, but maybe, when you read this, you will reconsider your point of view about the subject.
There are people on this board who are prepared to lose everything they have in life, and I mean everything, just to become who they really are.
When one doesn't have an identity, it's like walking on quicksand.
They will make great offers, with a lot of sorrow and pain, but they will continue, because there is no choice, sometimes they think they will be better off dead.
Sometimes social isolated, no family or friends who wants to see them.
So, if someone is in that position and another says, hey you're in a luxury position, I think there is a reason for debate.
I hope you will think about that, not everybody can say they have a smooth transition, some people are living in hell.
So please, have some sympathy.
I don't think you meant it in a bad way, but some words you used are painfull for a lot of people.

Hi,

Im 64,   a woman who does  not pass in the way is talked  about on forums & im on over 20 trans & I S,  so i get to hear it all from many 1000's of people so i know what is alluded to.

wether dressers or trans, some thing im nether. tho i am a I S. yet my features are very masculine , so no i dont belive i would pass or can..& certinly not at my age,  What has held myself to gether with out looseing the plot is being I S .

Thats from a woman.

one who does not have a womb...or whats needed to have babys ...so there you have it,

Yet im accepted by many 1000's of people talked to 100 's been seen by over 3 Millon people on the net & in the Papers & interviewed . so i cant  be that bad as to hide my face from public view,

Yes a member of many womens & mixed groups & world wide, women only forums so there you have it & my avatar is how im seen most of the time , i do change my clothes of cause.

...noeleena, Loch-head,

Waimate,

New Zealand.

That is true - I never felt it was the right time to transition even though I knew I was a woman in early 20s before age would masculinize me further, and now I am 30 and transitioning, passing is a lot less big deal to me now heh

I think I can safely say that anyone who genuinely answers "yes" (sorry! meant "no")  to this question is not truly transsexual and should not undergo HRT. I'm pretty sure practically all therapists and physicians would agree that. Still, it is possible to "transition", meaning live presenting yourself in public as a different gender than before, without making physical changes to your body. I suppose in that case, it would be just you might want to take into consideration how people perceive you.

I personally am more concerned about feeling feminine than giving others the impression that I am. In public, though, I do generally try to look and come across as normally feminine as possible, if for no other reason than for the comfort of others. Gender incongurence makes some people uncomfortable, so I figure it's best to look as normal as possible.

Lyric ~

Quote from: Lyric on December 17, 2011, 10:52:23 AM
I think I can safely say that anyone who genuinely answers "yes" to this question is not truly transsexual and should not undergo HRT. I'm pretty sure practically all therapists and physicians would agree that. Still, it is possible to "transition", meaning live presenting yourself in public as a different gender than before, without making physical changes to your body. I suppose in that case, it would be just you might want to take into consideration how people perceive you.

I personally am more concerned about feeling feminine than giving others the impression that I am. In public, though, I do generally try to look and come across as normally feminine as possible, if for no other reason than for the comfort of others. Gender incongurence makes some people uncomfortable, so I figure it's best to look as normal as possible.

Lyric ~

I am sorry but I have to disagree - being transsexual does not necessarily mean you have to have a deep hatred of your penis or male image.

And HRT is necessary to help you pass better especially if you are in your 30s.

And feeling and looking feminine are not mutually exclusive categories. They go hand-in-hand.... I can feel feminine in a cami and jeans, but I feel way more feminine in a sexy halter dress and open toed heels because I look so feminine heh

Very sorry for the wording error. I should  have rechecked the phrasing of title first. I meant that a true TS would be more concerned with living as the target gender than with how other perceive her/him.

In the beginning I would have said no and chosen to kill myself rather then go on living as a man, and although I still feel that way, I understand that 90% of us with hormones do eventually pass most of the time.please don't challenge my stats as there is no real data one way or another, just my experience from two years in the trans community. I still feel like I am sitting on a time bomb and if I ever loose hope that I will get SRS one day, I will end it it.

Huggs

Emily

Quote from: fionabell on December 16, 2011, 07:14:42 PM
It's always me me me with us westerners these days isn't it?

If my transition wans't about me I don't know who else it would be about.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 17, 2011, 03:37:41 AM
Republicans vs giant astronaut mantisheads.

I for one welcome our new mantishead overlords.

Quote from: Dahlia on December 16, 2011, 12:05:19 PM
I was totally unpassable as a 'male' pre transition......and it caused  a lot social problems not to mention people pointing at me,  screaming and cursing and calling me names etcetc.

After years and years of being excluded, in the gayworld too,  verbal abuse etcetc I went into a serious depresson.

I know what it is to be 'unpassable' and no, I couldn't bear it.

Probably I would have turned into a total recluse, being unpassable as a MTF in the end probably killing myself.

I feel your pain sister, do not give up !

Have you consider a DYS orchiotomy, I have.

Quote from: Jen61 on December 17, 2011, 03:35:16 PM
Have you consider a DYS orchiotomy, I have.

All it got me was a long stay in a hospital and a pysch evaluation. 

Quote from: annette on December 17, 2011, 05:13:42 AM
I will try to explain Fiona, I think you are feeling a bit trapped in the corner now.
There is no need for, but maybe, when you read this, you will reconsider your point of view about the subject.
There are people on this board who are prepared to lose everything they have in life, and I mean everything, just to become who they really are.
When one doesn't have an identity, it's like walking on quicksand.
They will make great offers, with a lot of sorrow and pain, but they will continue, because there is no choice, sometimes they think they will be better off dead.
Sometimes social isolated, no family or friends who wants to see them.
So, if someone is in that position and another says, hey you're in a luxury position, I think there is a reason for debate.
I hope you will think about that, not everybody can say they have a smooth transition, some people are living in hell.
So please, have some sympathy.
I don't think you meant it in a bad way, but some words you used are painfull for a lot of people.

once again, like everyone else you are attacking me by saying my struggle is less than others and that becoming a tans is less important to me than it is to others. I've been shunned and isolated and cut my losses too.I have every bit as much sorrow and pain as anyone else on this site.

Stop condescending to me. I find everyone accusing me of not being trans just because I'm not subscribing to the mob mentality here very personally insulting. How would you like it if I accused you of being less trans than others here?

I'm not the unsympathetic one. Unsympathetic is thinking the world revolves around you and transitioning even if it destroys your wife and children's lives.

Should a parent who has a deep seated desire to take drugs and go out every night have a moral right to?

Why not ? They are depressed. Their life is hell. The day to day grind is like sinking in quicksand. They have sorrow and pain and their extended family members just don't understand their need for cocaine and hookers.

Sure spending money on cocaine and hookers takes food off the childrens table and disallows them a good education.

But it's me me me i feel so depressed without cocaine and hookers every night.

Morals aren't like fine cheeses at a deli where you can pick and choose which ones suit you or not. You are either doing people over or standing by them.Being a parent is about sacrifice. All parents are living on lost dreams and sinking quicksand. That's the nature of the trade off. Do you think a mother who's boobs and body have been compromised by childbirth etc doesn't feel like a hot 20 year old girl trapped in the body of an aging mother?

If anyone is offended by this understand I'm not intentionally insulting anyone and that I feel insulted because everyone is saying that I need to be trans less than they do.

QuoteI'm curious, if you knew you wouldn't "pass," would you still transition anyway?

Yes, on a lesser level.  I would probably stick with appearing androgynous; better than appearing male.

Every time a thread like this occurs another lost kitten's mewing never falls on the ears of her mother.

That's how sad the infighting makes me.

The six thousand things we could say or prove to one another in this regard are pointless if said in a fashion to harm. I apologize, Fiona, I did absolutely bristle at your point of view. I still do. Not because its a harmful truth, though, but because you're preaching morality with a fervor. Ethical beliefs are not universal across the broad spectrum of humanity.

Quote from: fionabell on December 18, 2011, 01:45:29 AM
once again, like everyone else you are attacking me by saying my struggle is less than others and that becoming a tans is less important to me than it is to others. I've been shunned and isolated and cut my losses too.I have every bit as much sorrow and pain as anyone else on this site.

Stop condescending to me. I find everyone accusing me of not being trans just because I'm not subscribing to the mob mentality here very personally insulting. How would you like it if I accused you of being less trans than others here?

I'm not the unsympathetic one. Unsympathetic is thinking the world revolves around you and transitioning even if it destroys your wife and children's lives.

Should a parent who has a deep seated desire to take drugs and go out every night have a moral right to?

Why not ? They are depressed. Their life is hell. The day to day grind is like sinking in quicksand. They have sorrow and pain and their extended family members just don't understand their need for cocaine and hookers.

Sure spending money on cocaine and hookers takes food off the childrens table and disallows them a good education.

But it's me me me i feel so depressed without cocaine and hookers every night.

Morals aren't like fine cheeses at a deli where you can pick and choose which ones suit you or not. You are either doing people over or standing by them.Being a parent is about sacrifice. All parents are living on lost dreams and sinking quicksand. That's the nature of the trade off. Do you think a mother who's boobs and body have been compromised by childbirth etc doesn't feel like a hot 20 year old girl trapped in the body of an aging mother?

If anyone is offended by this understand I'm not intentionally insulting anyone and that I feel insulted because everyone is saying that I need to be trans less than they do.

No one has said that your transition struggles are less than their own please stop perceiving replies as this, we just don't agree with your "greater morals" on it and in some people found things you've said to be belittling of their own transition as well. No one has said you're not trans, no one has personally attacked you, people have just made posts disagree with your views and you take personal offense from them because they don't agree with you.

If a trans person parent has a wife and a child then I guess that's their choice to live as their gender or not and consider the consequences for themselves and others, being trans is not going to ruin the lives of their family. There are plenty times it works out, and a lot of the times is doesn't but they can't go beating themselves up over wanting a little personally happiness, and unlike a drug addiction, being trans will not take food off the table and or stop their childrens education. Just like it's not always me me me it's also not always them them them. Just as me being trans is not going to ruin my mother or my sisters lives, my mum will just have a daughter and sisters a sister. If someone is an only child is it right that they should live a life in a body that causes them dysphoria and to feel down right terrible nearly all the time because their parents want grandchildren?

The thing is, you can pick and choose morals, morals are a personal thing and not a set of stone rules. And in many cases they aren't so black and white like most things in the world there are exceptions.

But please don't think I think of you as "less trans", I just think differently than you and I personally think it's great that we can discuss and debate these things, hopefully in a civil manner.

Quote from: fionabell on December 18, 2011, 01:45:29 AM


I'm not the unsympathetic one. Unsympathetic is thinking the world revolves around you and transitioning even if it destroys your wife and children's lives.

I think transsexualism is partially an act of narcissism. For the narcissist expects the world to bend to her will and think everything +/- involves her. At the end of the day, I know what I am.

There is already enough navel gazin in the gay community. But at the end of the day, I still have another man to take care of and love...

But hey, my boyfriend has set a timebomb off in his family to come be with his ->-bleeped-<- girlfriend... He expects me to give up MY LIFE to be with him and be his captive.

Unfortunately, my Mom hasn't lost a son or gained a daughter...Her effeminate gay son is merely changing his/her body.

I have read my post again and again, and I can't find a word what is condescending or attackking you Fiona.
About moral, why should responsibility stop when one is going into transition?
One can go into transition and still be responsible for the children, or other obligations.
Sorry, you feel attacked, there is no reason for it.
BTW, there is nothing wrong with having moral, we can agree to that.

Mahsa if we saw you walking down the street, into a hetero bar, getting a drink and sitting at a table woudl we say 'thats an effeminate gay guy?'  I think not.

Effem gays are very distinct as are non=passing TGs but no-one would confuse the two.

Most effem person I've seen recently was one of guys at LGBT conference I used to go to but there was nothing feminine about him yet he ran across the room like a prima ballerina.

Quote from: fionabell on December 16, 2011, 06:04:30 PM
It depends if you are single or not.

If you have a family don't do it.

If you are an only child and therefore the one hope of your parents, then don't do it.

Transitioning is a luxury. A luxury, people have done without for 1000's of years.

If it's going to destroy your life, don't do it. There are more important things in life than touchy feely gender identity.

I'm transitioning because I can. I feel I will look reasonably alright. It makes me happier and calmer than being a man and I have no responsibilities which I'd be shirking.

It's not like transition is going to certainly destroy those things, though it might.  Personally, my parents are prouder of me for it, and their hopes are just as much riding on me as ever.

QuoteIt's not a scientifically proven or god given right to me. I do feel feminine on the inside but that's about as much justification I can attach to it.

Does something only become true when it's scientifically proven?  Did gravity not exist before Newton, or did cells not exist before the microscope?

Point being - trans people don't need to wait on science to know what's in their own heart.  And when science demonstrates beyond a shadow of a doubt for everyone else to see, then all the better.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on December 18, 2011, 02:54:04 AM
I think transsexualism is partially an act of narcissism. For the narcissist expects the world to bend to her will and think everything +/- involves her. Her effeminate gay son is merely changing his/her body.

I really think, you don't know, what's all about.

Quote from: lilacwoman on December 18, 2011, 03:05:27 AM
Mahsa if we saw you walking down the street, into a hetero bar, getting a drink and sitting at a table woudl we say 'thats an effeminate gay guy?'  I think not.

Effem gays are very distinct as are non=passing TGs but no-one would confuse the two.

Most effem person I've seen recently was one of guys at LGBT conference I used to go to but there was nothing feminine about him yet he ran across the room like a prima ballerina.

Of course you wouldn't see me as one. But it doesn't change the reality that I am my Mom's son.

Quote from: annette on December 18, 2011, 03:11:17 AM
I really think, you don't know, what's all about.

So....People have different opinions. You probably don't know about the martin polar bear encampments on the moon. But I don't think you're wrong...I just think you believe there are no martin polar bear encampments on the moon.

We all believe different stuff.

Quote from: angelfaced on December 16, 2011, 12:44:39 PM
i feel bad in saying this and will never give advice to this question ( at least honestly ), if i didnt pass i wouldve killed myself.

Ditto here for me. Even at that, I botched twice. I haven't had those sorts of issues since my transition however. Once that was behind me, I never got depressed about the dysphoria after that.  That doesn't mean I don't get depressed from time to time... but it certainly isn't over my gender.

I must point out that I've seen many who I never thought would EVER pass, have done so quite admirably. I think that there are very few who can't make it work. I really don't want to discourage anyone from trying. That's what the year waiting period is all about.

Cindi

QuoteDoes something only become true when it's scientifically proven?  Did gravity not exist before Newton, or did cells not exist before the microscope?

Your point is further underscored by the fact that gravity is not proven "fact". It still remains "just a theory". ;)  Where science is concerned, theory is supported by data. Facts are practically nonexistant.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on December 18, 2011, 03:19:14 AM
Your point is further underscored by the fact that gravity is not proven "fact". It still remains "just a theory". ;)  Where science is concerned, theory is supported by data. Facts are practically nonexistant.

Cindi

That's just being pedantic really.

Pedantic?  Yes.  I suppose that I didn't clarify "just a theory" better. It's the excuse that certain deniers use when they discount any science. They say that it's "just a theory".  Yes, gravity is "just a theory" too.

Cindi

Oh right, yeah, I feel ya blud.

Quote from: Lyric on December 17, 2011, 10:52:23 AM
I think I can safely say that anyone who genuinely answers "yes" (sorry! meant "no")  to this question is not truly transsexual and should not undergo HRT. I'm pretty sure practically all therapists and physicians would agree that.

I started HRT because it was my only choice, other than killing myself immediately due to the distress and pain of being in a male body.
If someone had told me that I could never pass, that it was impossible, that I would never look female... I would have killed myself; and I would have done so not because of the need to be seen as female by others (and treated as such by society), but for the simple reason that it would be unbearable to be condemned to a body that was not mine. Though I am a female in mind and heart, I can't believe that being sentenced to persist in a male body would not affect one's ability to truly embody one's Self; to feel female. Or to put it another way, I can't imagine how living in such a state would not drive one to acts of frequent self-harm, constant suicidal ideation, and a very early grave.

You can say I'm not a true transsexual if you'd like, because of my answer, but it wouldn't matter. All that matters is aligning my body with my mind; everything else—including people's opinions of me—is extraneous.

Quote from: fionabell on December 18, 2011, 01:45:29 AM
Should a parent who has a deep seated desire to take drugs and go out every night have a moral right to?

Why not ? They are depressed. Their life is hell. The day to day grind is like sinking in quicksand. They have sorrow and pain and their extended family members just don't understand their need for cocaine and hookers.

I'm sorry Fiona, I really don't want you to feel bad... :( It's not my wish to hurt anyone, so if I have, I apologize.

...But with that said though, I do find it kind of unbelievable that you are equating the 'need' for 'cocaine and hookers' in this hypothetical, with the need to seek positive treatment for a recognized medical condition (with a biological basis in reality). ~You have every right to your opinion though, and I guess it'll just be one of those things that we can agree to disagree on.

Quote from: Akashiya Moka on December 18, 2011, 04:21:53 AM
I started HRT because it was my only choice, other than killing myself immediately due to the distress and pain of being in a male body.
If someone had told me that I could never pass, that it was impossible, that I would never look female... I would have killed myself; and I would have done so not because of the need to be seen as female by others (and treated as such by society), but for the simple reason that it would be unbearable to be condemned to a body that was not mine. Though I am a female in mind and heart, I can't believe that being sentenced to persist in a male body would not affect one's ability to truly embody one's Self; to feel female. Or to put it another way, I can't imagine how living in such a state would not drive one to acts of frequent self-harm, constant suicidal ideation, and a very early grave.

You can say I'm not a true transsexual if you'd like, because of my answer, but it wouldn't matter. All that matters is aligning my body with my mind; everything else—including people's opinions of me—is extraneous.

i think you've missed the part where she corrected it. that was a mistake made from typing fastly.

I would try, if I still don't succeed in the end, I'd end my miserable life

This is a bit of a loaded question. Everyone can pass. There are simply striations to the level of effort any individual must endure to reach that goal. For instance, some people pass pre-everything, and some struggle even after FFS/BA and two years of HRT. The issue isn't if, but when. Now, for me personally, when I came out to my father one of the things I put out there was that,

QuoteI'm fully prepared to end up somewhere in the middle, and I know that might happen, and I'm okay with that.

i would probably still transition, but i'd be very depressed about still being perceived as a male by everyone

I've actually had to come back to this post as I was (and still am) saddened at the suicidal mentions.
I actually think that this type of question is quite negative - Let me explain:

I'm curious, if you "knew" you wouldn't "pass," would you still transition anyway?

That's the great thing. You DON'T know... do you?... really. Unless you take those steps to transition, you'll never know- and the only thing holding you back is the fear of fear itself.

And here's the really delightful part. In three years time when you come to the realisation that you may not "pass" as a woman, you'll be a completely different person, like totally.
The choices that you've made. Decisions that you acted on. This would make you a stronger, wise and more importantly- would give you choice. You'd probably be bold in character not to care what others think, or strong enough to save for the FFS? 

Who knows really ?  You certainly don't, until you face the fear, and take that first step that makes up all those miles...

Love and Respect

Jenny

OXOXOXO

I wouldn't have transition if I weren't going to pass AND be attractive.
I know for sure I was cute as a male, I would have just stayed that way and find a caring partner who'd treat me as less masculine as possible.
I would have told him about my dysphoria and stuff.

I don't know, looks are very important for me.

Quote from: Jenny_B_Good on January 03, 2012, 07:50:33 AM
I've actually had to come back to this post as I was (and still am) saddened at the suicidal mentions.
I actually think that this type of question is quite negative - Let me explain:

I'm curious, if you "knew" you wouldn't "pass," would you still transition anyway?

That's the great thing. You DON'T know... do you?... really. Unless you take those steps to transition, you'll never know- and the only thing holding you back is the fear of fear itself.

And here's the really delightful part. In three years time when you come to the realisation that you may not "pass" as a woman, you'll be a completely different person, like totally.
The choices that you've made. Decisions that you acted on. This would make you a stronger, wise and more importantly- would give you choice. You'd probably be bold in character not to care what others think, or strong enough to save for the FFS? 

Who knows really ?  You certainly don't, until you face the fear, and take that first step that makes up all those miles...

Love and Respect

Jenny

OXOXOXO

I don't think I would change that much in a positive way.

It seems more likely that after probably alienating most of the people around me as in friends and family, going through what it seems will be awkward transition period dealing with a very uncaring and possibly hostile society. Only to realize, after you've spent a couple years wasting money and striving to reach a goal, you may never pass and possibly look like something you can't stand to see since it's nowhere near your expectations.

I've thought a lot about this lately, on if I could ever pass and I just feel that situation would lead to a deep depression instead of an empowering attitude of "this is me screw everyone who doesn't like it" cause really they aren't the main problem, if you don't pass and that is your goal then it's if you like it or not. How can you live with that kind of failure? Would it really hurt less to see yourself in the mirror and kind of look female yet still see that male you hated poking through so much? To me it just seems like postponing the inevitable.

Quote from: Akashiya Moka on December 18, 2011, 04:21:53 AM
If someone had told me that I could never pass, that it was impossible, that I would never look female... I would have killed myself

I'm sorry to hear you had such extreme feelings, but such suicidal feelings generally has deeper roots than GID. A person in solid psychological health tends to base their sense of self worth from their inner core rather than needing constant verification from strangers. My thought was that a person who is truly TS would want to live in her/his target ID regardless and external verification would be optional-- though an understandably important option. There are even genetic females who usually appear males to strangers, but they don't live as men because of that. There are people who manage to live fulfilling lives in spite of all sorts of personal obsticles-- many much worse than GID issues.

Lyric ~

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 03, 2012, 11:41:31 AM
I find this a somewhat frustrating assumption. Passing to other people was irrelevant (and rather easy). Passing to myself was what mattered. GID is (at least partly) a discomfort with your physical form... is it such a HUGE stretch to imagine that some folks might have issues with more than their crotches? That I could find my facial structure appalling enough to wish for death over continuation of that pain? If I could learn to be okay with my body, why the hell would I even transition?

Something like 40% of (still living) trans folk have attempted suicide. Obviously we are all super disturbed. :P

I echo this notion. A person's environment is often an enormous contributing factor to major depression. Feeling unable to and restricted from interacting with your environment, or feeling condemned to interact with your environment in a highly unpleasant manner, would lead many people to a dangerous mental state - the same is true of many non-human animals.

Well, it seems to me that what you are describing is the stage of a process that you are in. I guess a lot of TS folks, sadly, never grow beyond it. Sooner or later, though, I think one must recognize their own uniqueness and find satisfaction from within rather than depend entirely upon verification from without.

Have you ever seen a transgender person who you thought didn't pass at all, but who seemed happy with her/his self? I have-- there are a few on this forum. There's an interesting phenomenon of human nature at play, I think. We tend to receive  happiness from the very effort of creating/accomplishing something-- not as much from the results of that creation.

You're on it, Sarah, when you say mention "Passing to myself" is important to you. You could be a ringer for Megan Fox and still not do that. Apparently if you stick around and deal, though, eventually you find a way.

Here's a 7-foot transwoman (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4035431/Seven-foot-tall-former-American-basketball-star-Lindsey-Walker-is-set-to-lay-claim-to-the-title-of-the-worlds-tallest-transsexual.html), exceptionally tall even by male standards!

I can understand the simple thrust of the original post and the responses of those who say that they couldn't cope if they did not pass.
As one who doesn't pass well I will try and explain it.
I am ME and you can like or dislike me as you choose.  It took me a very long time to get here mentally and until I did I could not take the steps to get here physically.   I am at peace with myself.  I don't CARE what you think of me, in respect of my transition.  That's not some sort of psychological defence mechanism it's just a simple fact - as long as you're not stomping on my face, I truly don't give a flying damn.
Whether I had transitioned or not, some people would like me and some wouldn't and that is the same for every person in the world.

To those who say they could not transition unless they would totally pass, I see that as your weakness.  What you are saying is that you are not strong enough to withstand any social rejection and difficulties that would arise from you not passing and would rather die or pretend to be someone who at heart you are not than risk the consequences of being true to yourself.  I don't think that puts you in a very good light.
It comes down to having truth and peace within yourself.  Someone said "I would rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not." and that sums it up.  If you would rather trick people into liking you by pretending to be something you are not, then that is your choice, but don't expect me to respect you for it.

OF COURSE I would rather Pass, life would be so much easier and so much more rewarding.  I do have some serious difficulties in my life which would not arise if I passed as a born woman.  But in my heart I am happy and contented and in most of my general life too.  That does not mean that I don't suffer loneliness etc sometimes but there are a great many lonely people out there who are not trans or anything, they are just ordinary people.

Getting on socially as an easily read transwoman depends totally on that confidence and peace within yourself.  The intitial reaction of people will be based on face-value as it always is for everyone, but if you are confident to just be You then after a while your appearance no longer matters.  You are accepted for your core values, for the person you are.  When I first meet women, they have some natural wariness and distance because they can see that I was not always one of them, but in a short time that relaxes into acceptance as just another woman.  Neither I nor they will totally forget that I am different but it recedes far into the background and becomes almost irrelevant.  They respond to the presentation you make of yourself not the outward appearance.

Yes, if I could have FFS I would immediately.  The more like a born woman I appear, the easier life becomes.  Most of my problems in day to day life though arise from my attitude and are a direct result of a lifelong feeling of alienation.  I should have been born a girl. 

Relationships and interaction with guys is a different matter entirely.  They are very ego-driven.   I'm sure that a great many of them do find us attractive despite our discernible origins.  The problem is that they dare not sleep with us or date us openly because they could not cope with the ridicule and loss of social status among their mates.  That's little different to the problems of the born women who have the misfortune to be a very long way from "the ideal"
The truth is that given a choice between publicly dating a hideously unattractive born woman and a very attractive but visibly trans woman, 99%+ of guys are going to choose the born woman.
That is a choice driven by male ego and I think that the same mindset is at play in those who say that they would not transition unless they could be a beautiful woman. 

To Steffi, I know I'm weak. I don't need someone to remind me of it. I wish I didn't care what others thought but I have so few people around me as it is being what I'm not that I couldn't imagine choosing to give them up to be seen as an outcast by them and so many others.

Maybe the fact that I've been depressed for almost half my life has skewed my perception of myself and others. I do realize that, and yes it is a weakness as you say to let things get to you. Sadly I am having trouble seeing what the benefit of outing myself would be, sure I might feel more myself but without the companionship I've come to cherish through the years, will it really matter?

Some of us are stronger and some are weaker, I personally don't feel weaker people deserve less respect because they are weak. That's just my take on it though, I don't expect you to respect me for it if you don't feel I'm worth respecting. Really I have a hard time these days seeing myself as anything but a pathetic excuse for a man anyways, as wrong as that may be to admit, some of us are just not strong enough emotionally. So I can't really expect others to see me any better.

btw I'm not mad or anything Steffi. I prefer brutal honesty from people, even when it might hurt.

Sorry...... sometimes in type things come out a bit more sharp edged than really intended, especially if it's an uncomfortable truth.

I'm not being superior - I didn't transition at 25 for the very reason that I knew and acknowledged that I could not face life ridiculed, rejected, othered and alone.
- but I did know my reasons.
I was shamed about three years after that when a person I knew as a hard-boy did come out and transition.  He had a lot of bottle because times were tough back then and he was doing it from being very macho.
I don't mind at all if people choose - as I did back then - not to transition, as long as they're honest with their motives and reasons.
As I said, it took me a very long time to get to a place within myself where I was strong enough.  Back in 1979, I WOULD have gone home and hung myself the first time someone ridiculed me in the street.  Back then, I could not imagine how it was even possible to not feel that way. 

For those unlikely to pass, the choice to transition is in every case between the discomfort of carrying on as one is or the discomfort of life after the change.
There are analogous situations all over life; there are plenty of people attending church who are not believers but who dare not do otherwise because of the social consequences. 

I'm also in England, so my perspective will be derived from a different cultural background.

QuoteI'm honest about who I am and what I needed to live. That's the best I can do.

..... and that is all that I would ask of you anyway!

Amalina ...... sorry if I hurt you.    You're right - it is brutal honesty.
I have no right to a high-horse - I did not transition until I was 53 and had literally reached the very point of suicide - though now I wonder WTF I was so scared of for all those years.
I can understand why people don't transition - all I ask is that they are at least honest with themselves  :)

My life is far from perfect, but I would not ever go back.

It's ok Steffi. I've just been overly sensitive lately about my own self worth and such. Like I said I appreciate brutal honesty.

I think I am fairly honest with myself about my reasons though. So yeah I think I have that at least.

I was just hoping I didn't come off angry at you. I'm still so new here and to this community as a whole I don't want to come off badly to ya'all.

Sorry for going off topic, but I've seen something that I've missed for a long time.
Steffi, Sarah and Amalina, this is such a good way to have a discussion.
Treads are often locked because things were nasty, I'm glad to see that it can be handled in a very mature way, thanks for that.
Now back to topic, It's hard to say what one would do, so many ppl, so many tastes.
I can only speak for myself, I didn't have any choice than going for transition, at leats that's the way I felt.
No one never know how things developing, for me it worked out very good, but I can imagine the doubts for ppl