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Is there any scientific proof that we have a soul?

No.

Quote from: fionabell on December 27, 2011, 06:15:22 PM
Is there any scientific proof that we have a soul?

Kia Ora Fiona,

"Is there any scientific proof that we have a soul?"

::) If you mean a permanent unchanging entity that abides within this corporeal body, then the simple answer is no...

Metta Zenda :)

Kia Ora Fiona,

::) If when referring to a soul you mean a 'mind', then just ones ability to think about or ask the question[Is there any proof that we have a soul/mind?] proves there is such a thing...But if one begins to try to analyse ones/the mind by using logic, they will end up on the slippery slope to mental 'hell'  >:-)  ;) ;D...

::) However, a simple truth... One can use the mind to understand logic, but one can't use logic to understand the mind...And if you try to think about this[in a logical way], it could do your brain in...If you don't believe me, just try it-see for your'self' ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)   

Hi Zenda,

I'm not sure about that the Nietzsche argument that 'I think therefore I am' is unprovable. I think. But I'm no philosopher.

oh oh. I've posted a philosophical thread in the religion section oops!

Quote from: Cindy James on December 28, 2011, 12:58:56 AM
Hi Zenda,

I'm not sure about that the Nietzsche argument that 'I think therefore I am' is unprovable. I think. But I'm no philosopher.

Kia Ora Cindy,

::)  Who or what is behind the thought ? Who 'thinks' ?

::) Can 'you' pin point the "I" that is meant to be doing the thinking ?  ;) :icon_yikes:

::) Now you have opened up a real kettle of worms  ;D [Well Fiona was holding the can opener-so she's really to blame ] ;)

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: fionabell on December 28, 2011, 01:25:29 AM
oh oh. I've posted a philosophical thread in the religion section oops!

Kia Ora Fiona,

::) "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered, religion is answers that must 'never' be questioned !"

::) Mind you, it doesn't really matter where you pose the 'question'...

Metta Zenda :)

You are now at reductionist argument that has no validity in a philosophy. You cannot, with any logic go anywhere with your argument. You have to create  a thing to allow your argument to begin  :laugh:

Please everyone take this topic in a nice way, I'm not kicking sand into any religious beliefs and I know Zenda is not either.

Cindy

Quote from: Cindy James on December 28, 2011, 01:46:42 AM
You are now at reductionist argument that has no validity in a philosophy. You cannot, with any logic go anywhere with your argument. You have to create  a thing to allow your argument to begin  :laugh:

Please everyone take this topic in a nice way, I'm not kicking sand into any religious beliefs and I know Zenda is not either.

Cindy

Kia Ora Cindy,

::) So to get back on track.....Open it back up so to speak...

::) Is there a soul ? [and I don't think Fiona means a flatfish either, but then again she could have spelt it wrong 'sole' ]  ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

As I flounder I will try to answer.

Personally I don't think we have a soul. I'm arguing this from a non-religious point of view, my opinions are mine. I'm not a neuroscientist but I work with several world accepted experts, and no I cannot reveal who they are. It is unfair to them. But one question I keep coming up with is, and ask them; what is memory? What is thought? What is intelligence? What is the difference ,if any between my 'free' intelligence and the honey eater bird I'm watching perched on my gutter, bent over double looking for a bug to eat? they ask me the same, I'm an Immunologist and they ask the same question, How does immune memory work? Our understanding of such processes change very rapidly. My understanding of immune memory has gone haywire in the last few months with some landmark studies.

Why do we believe in souls?

Maybe because we cannot understand how our brains work. We are locked in the concept that if you cannot understand then it is due to divine intervention.

Most of us have no concept of epigenetic changes, siRNA and how kinase pathways work. I sure don't. How can you change a protein to remember? Simple, in practice we do it when we immunise people against flu whatever. we teach our immune system to remember. What remembers? A 180,000 Mwt protein in that case recognises a sequence of preserverd amino acids on a particular protein. We have billions of those proteins hence we are protected.

Does the brain work the same way? Well probably, she says, with no proof and how to get over synaptic communication, why a brain cell can be three meters long and that is longer than I am tall,  Why? What does that mean?

Is it a soul or is it biology?

I will put a caution on my comments. I will not knowingly insult anyone's religious beliefs. My comments are mine alone. They are posted for discussion and interest and to be thought provoking.

Cindy

 :icon_dizzy:

Is there any PROOF that we do NOT have a soul?

And PLEASE try leave out the materialistic empiricism.
It be no good to PROOF a lot of things going on in our BEING.

Does that make sense?

Soulful,
Axélle

Quote from: Andreabc on December 28, 2011, 03:07:27 AM
I don't understand what the googly eyes are for.

It was more in response to Cindy's last post. Dizzy emoticon. But it was in response to yours as well.

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on December 28, 2011, 03:05:04 AM
Is there any PROOF that we do NOT have a soul?

And PLEASE try leave out the materialistic empiricism.
It be no good to PROOF a lot of things going on in our BEING.

Does that make sense?

Soulful,
Axélle

A little bit. You mean leave out the idea that our mind might be driven by only a physical brain?

To unprove your existence is an oxymoron.

Which is why we cannot prove our existence.

There are arguments that are worthless.

And this discussion, sadly is one of them.

Why?


Cindy

Quote from: Cindy James on December 28, 2011, 03:45:27 AM
To unprove your existence is an oxymoron.

Which is why we cannot prove our existence.

There are arguments that are worthless.

And this discussion, sadly is one of them.

Why?


Cindy

your previous post was really good :)

Love

Everything is relative to the person. What one who was trained to think a certain way can never understand another who wasn't trained or had their minds filled with so called established thoughts. Myself i have always been switching back and forth along that fence. I feel as if i have one foot in this world and another in the next. Some people thogh are living in the next world and just periodically peeking into this one and then going back to where they know peace. I could never ever judge another who was in the next world and for those who think there is only this world well i say take a look around your underground. But alas they can't even imagine that. You know we who transition knew what we were even before we did one thing. Then we do those many things and then lose touch with that previos mentailty that many others would call crazy to think we are another gender. Myself after i transitioned gender i then transitioned gender altogether and knew that the outer is just a face because the real us is internal. I think that is a form or proof that we are not what we see or think. We are only relative to the individal. So to use some kind of logic taught by schools, colleges, etc closes our minds to others understandings and truths

Quote from: fionabell on December 28, 2011, 03:35:37 AM
[clipped] You mean leave out the idea that our mind might be driven by only a physical brain?

Absolutely, we are more then just some bio-computer, - even a dog would be more then that.

Food for thought?
Axelle

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on December 28, 2011, 03:05:04 AM
Is there any PROOF that we do NOT have a soul?

Is there any PROOF that I do NOT have an invisible dragon in my garage?

Jennifer

Quote from: Jennifer on December 28, 2011, 09:01:36 AM
Is there any PROOF that I do NOT have an invisible dragon in my garage?

Jennifer

You got it, didn't you :-)

In the end it's about PERCEPTION and WORDS and CONCEPTS.
In case of questions consult F. W. Nietzsche ...

Axelle

Kia Ora,

::) If one can 'dance' ones got soul ! If one has got 'two left feet'[can't dance] ones got no soul !  This should be proof enough !  ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on December 28, 2011, 09:11:28 AM
You got it, didn't you :-)

In the end it's about PERCEPTION and WORDS and CONCEPTS.
In case of questions consult F. W. Nietzsche ...

Axelle

Axelle honey....research has shown dogs don't have souls...

Quote" The instant life ceased the opposite scale pan fell with a suddenness that was astonishing – as if something had been suddenly lifted from the body.  Immediately all the usual deductions were made for physical loss of weight, and it was discovered that there was still a full ounce of weight unaccounted for".

QuoteDr. MacDougall conducted the same experiment on 15 dogs.  The experiments showed no change in weight following their death.  MacDougall concluded that this may signify only humans have souls.

LINK: The 21 gram soul theory (//http://LINK:%20The%2021%20gram%20soul%20theory)

Modify new link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_%28doctor%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_%28doctor%29)

I'm sorry honey :icon_hug: :-*

God I HATE Nietzsche, poor poet posing as poor philosopher, anyone who makes Schopenhauer look cheerful.

Oh, and 'I think therefore I am' - Cogito Ergo Sum, is Descartes.

- There have been many interesting experiments to try and trap the soul, or measure it. The weighing ones being one of my most favourite. I read a really interesting and readable look at these experiments in a book called 'Six Feet Over' by Mary Roach.

My Dad, who used to be an undertaker and is now a pastor, says that he thinks that the soul is obvious when seeing an alive person then a dead person. Now, I felt this was nonsense, that the difference is in the way a living person holds themselves, even in repose to the way a dead person cannot hold themselves.

However, then I saw my Granny's corpse and there was that real sense that she was gone, that the spark that made that flesh my Granny and not just some meat was absent. I would name this spark 'life' rather than 'soul' though.

I thought people weighed less when they died because bodies tend to void their bowels right after death.

Did you look at the link? I'm sure they covered all variables. It was a proper scientific study. One hasn't been done again because obviously it's quite inhumane to the test subjects.

Quote from: fionabell on December 28, 2011, 09:06:36 PM
Did you look at the link? I'm sure they covered all variables. It was a proper scientific study. One hasn't been done again because obviously it's quite inhumane to the test subjects.

Kia Ora Fiona,

::) So are the scientists who carried out these test on the poor dogs 'soulless' ?  The link doesn't work BTW...

Metta Zenda :)

Nietzsche was a lot about perception... Schopenhauer a chauvinist... though I'm just fine with both of the.
I'm also sure both had 'soul'... though not too sure about Herr Hegel, I think he might have had "two left feet..." i.e. soul-less, but by all meant NOT lifeless :-)

Hm,
Axélle
PS: we are getting this 'soul proof' thing going now, don't we?

Quote from: Zenda on December 28, 2011, 09:36:12 PM
Kia Ora Fiona,

::) So are the scientists who carried out these test on the poor dogs 'soulless' ?  The link doesn't work BTW...

Metta Zenda :)

Thanks Zenda   

Try this one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_%28doctor%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_%28doctor%29)

In regards to the dogs it was only cruel because they actually poisoned them. :o

The moment of death is quite stunning. The change from living to not living in virtually any animal is enough to make people think of souls, but as pica pica said, it is the loss of life, not the loss of the soul.

Mind you it doesn't seem to matter to the dead. I've never heard of any coming back to tell us that there is they are 'souls'.

Oh dear have I been provocative again :embarrassed: I'll stand in the corner and smile. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Cindy

Well hon plants do live also - and die... that means we just the same then?

Something tells me: "Not so"
But then that's just me.

BTW I do not relate 'soul' to any of the religious notions, yet I have a VERY clear perception if something being soul-less and dead, and something being vibrant and filled with 'soul' and alive (in spirit), even if the person having created it is long dead and gone.

Now how about THAT?
Axélle

Quantum Physics

Quote from: Cindy James on December 29, 2011, 01:29:26 AM
The moment of death is quite stunning. The change from living to not living in virtually any animal is enough to make people think of souls, but as pica pica said, it is the loss of life, not the loss of the soul.

Mind you it doesn't seem to matter to the dead. I've never heard of any coming back to tell us that there is they are 'souls'.

Oh dear have I been provocative again :embarrassed: I'll stand in the corner and smile. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Cindy

That is the point of my post. Many educated people just block out of their minds the connections many of us do get from those who have passed on to the next world.

I have been guided many times in my travels to make certain turns or pick up or drop off people (hitchhikers etc) and so many times i could have been murdered but i wasn't. There is no way all of that was my doing besides i am one who longs to be in the next world but the next world wants me here to tell others about them.

I try to tell people and well all i can do is show by example that i worry not for all things here on earth but for love as that is what we should live for. So in your case Cindy you do seem to not worry (but you do care) for all things here on earth and you have much love but you seem to have a mental block of understanding or acceptence of the next world..

It will happen just keep your mind open

hugs Danielle  :angel:

If we remove all of the extras, which no-one seems capable of agreeing upon anyway, the answer boils down to 50/50. There either is or there isn't.

Is: That it is part of human existence. That every human community, including those that have been cut off from the rest of humanity, since very earliest times, have an awareness of the soul. It is entirely consistent, a single feature that occurs repeatedly in every system of belief that has emerged.

Isn't. Humans are deeply aware of their existence. Examinations of very young humans, seems to indicate that they are almost incapable of comprehending others as external from themselves. Even when mature, it is difficult for us to comprehend that the world can exist if we don't. So, we invent the notion of our own continuation beyond death.

• There are a number of groups and individuals who then seek to embellish their chosen option with dogma, invariably designed to suit their life experience.


• The sexually inhibited will design a belief system that incorporates levels of modesty that go beyond personal convenience. Most people cover themselves, but some groups say that nothing should be exposed, while others simply cover the genitals.


• Hierarchical societies generally have systems based upon regulations and restrictions according to social class.


• Many will incorporate rituals for allocating sex partners, even the act itself.


• Some claim to have superior intellectual or spiritual guidance. From time to time, people emerge claiming special communication with a higher being. Others claim to have backing of some system of rational thinking, science, metaphysics. The consistent element here is that these are ultimately unverifiable.
  

After death: Almost every group claims that penalties and rewards exist for those that correctly adheir to their dictates.

The 3 most common are,

• 
  Paradise, aptly defined by Nietzsche as a compensation in the next life for sacrifices in this one. (Or something to that effect).


• Hell, a sort afterlife entertainment for a god that presumably takes pleasure in seeing those it doesn't like, squirm.


• Waste of your time, most recently purported by those that are making a pitch for personal importance, claiming science is more than a tool to understand the tangible.

I have to say, that the most preposterous of the recent religious movements is the scientific atheism. Many of these people claim very high academic honours, yet apply the exact same deceptions that the religious types do.

That it can all be explained by science. It can't.

I recently watched a short TV program from Stephen Hawking where he claimed that the entire universe and everything in it has been proven, by science, to have been created out of nothing. That, sadly, for Mr Hawking, is not proof of the non-existence of the soul. Or for that matter, a god. He claimed that, since science has demonstrated that the universe has been created out of nothing, then there is no need for a god.

The question arises, is there a need for Stephen Hawking?

• Even if we do know, for absolute certainty, that this is how the universe was created and exists, that does not negate a god. Or a soul. Or, for that matter, the truth or otherwise of any specific belief system.


• That those that disagree don't understand the science. (Those that disagree with the authority of the Pope, don't understand the Bible, which we keep written, in an obscure, dead language so no-one can read it anyway. Then we burn to death any that try. sort of argument. Get's 'em every time). Hawking and his fellow scientific atheists are falling into the same trap that was so willingly occupied by other religion based tyrants. They, however, didn't have nuclear bombs!

If it was created out of nothing that would mean that God did create it


Besides who is always talking to me and telling me what choices i should make in life???

That surely isn't me because i know whenever i made choices i made the wrong ones .. well except for a few much needed choices which i did get help from above  :angel:

Is there any scientific proof?

Jennifer

Kia Ora,

::) This debate could go on for ever and we would be still none the wiser because no one as set a guideline as to what is meant by 'soul' ? Is it the immortal soul as in the Christian belief system-the thing that either goes to heaven or hell ? Or the Hindu definition of a soul [and often adopted new age belief] that is continually reincarnated? [Bearing in mind reincarnation is not the same as the Buddhist concept of rebirth] ...

::) If this is the case then  how can one expect to use science to prove or disprove a faith based concept? It wouldn't be 'faith' based if science could prove or disprove it !

::) In other words, what can be asserted without proof,[Yes we have a soul] can just as easily be dismissed without proof [No we don't have a soul]!

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on December 29, 2011, 04:25:09 PM
Kia Ora,



::) If this is the case then  how can one expect to use science to prove or disprove a faith based concept? It wouldn't be 'faith' based if science could prove or disprove it !



Metta Zenda :)

ditto

Quote from: Jennifer on December 29, 2011, 11:58:12 AM
Is there any scientific proof?

Jennifer

Science can't work with the intangible any more than a spatula can cut bread. The tool is simply inappropriate.

The issue of scientific proof for all things is, frankly, a fraud. Science can't prove anything that can't be measured.

Quote from: spacial on December 29, 2011, 07:31:12 PM
Science can't work with the intangible any more than a spatula can cut bread. The tool is simply inappropriate.

The issue of scientific proof for all things is, frankly, a fraud. Science can't prove anything that can't be measured.

Kia Ora Spacial,

::) I beg to differ...If one sharpens the edges it 'can' cut bread ! So your argument is on shaky grounds Spacial ;) :D

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on December 29, 2011, 08:24:01 PM
Kia Ora Spacial,

::) I beg to differ...If one sharpens the edges it 'can' cut bread ! So your argument is on shaky grounds Spacial ;) :D

Metta Zenda :)

Not wishing to pursue a redundant point, but a piece of soft wood or rubber, with edges sharp enough to cut bread doesn't seem much like a spatula any more.

Pedantic, I know, but good manners prevents me from responding to your point in a more appropriate manner.  :laugh:

Quote from: spacial on December 30, 2011, 02:12:31 AM
Not wishing to pursue a redundant point, but a piece of soft wood or rubber, with edges sharp enough to cut bread doesn't seem much like a spatula any more.

Pedantic, I know, but good manners prevents me from responding to your point in a more appropriate manner.  :laugh:

Kia Ora Spacial,

::) I beg to differ again >:-) ...Stainless steel spatulas used for tossing 'soulless' hamburgers...Sharpen the edge and it can cut bread and still perform it's normal spatula duties-"Once a spatula always a spatula"...[Note I'm still staying on topic] ;)

Metta Zenda :)

Kia Ora,

::) On a more serious note......

::)  Another way to look at the OP question, is from the view point that the soul that many speak of could just be pure unpolluted 'consciousness' that some of us are fortunate enough at times to tap into[or one could say it finds us], but one does not 'knowingly' know that they have tapped into it, for to become consciously 'aware' of this at the time[that is when "I" "Me" "Mine"=the self enters the equation] would mean it's no longer in its pure unpolluted state/form...I speak from a 'meditative' view point...

::) Does this make sense ?

::) But I guess science still has a long way to go to before it is able to actually measure this subjective  phenomena-the magic of the mind...  http://www.mindandlife.org/ (http://www.mindandlife.org/)

Metta Zenda :)

I am posting in reference to the original question of whether or not there is proof we have a soul.

The word of God is about faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the only one that could make the atonement for our sins. The word says faith is the substance of things not seen.

The Lord told Thomas that he believed because he had seen but blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.

Not all are blessed according to what is recorded of the Lord speaking to Thomas. In fact, the blessings of the Lord go contrary to most teachings today. It is written we are blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ and He has blessed us by turning us away from our sins. The remission or lessening of such as we grow in faith.

Anyone that has truly put off the tabernacle for a period of time knows we have a soul.

Those who have had such happen typically have it happen after they believe.

Those who have put off the tabernacle come back with a fear of God knowing their soul will spend eternity in one of two places.

They will tend to try to teach the truth and warn others in love and mercy hoping their words will be taken heed. They will also know that many will not believe them and mock them anyway.

They will not return to write foolish books and try to make a dollar off their experience. They will fear God far too much for vanity, pride or the wealth of this world.

As I said, many will not believe them. Many will just mock them.

But when it is all said and done we will all stand at the judgment seat of Christ whether we believe it or not and be judged by the one whom God hath sent to save us from our sins.

I believe in 3 eternal destinies not just two as christianity teaches.

google it and see for yourself..

i just think of it this way. if we have no soul, then what is it that gives life to the body we are in? how could we simply just be the body we are? how is it that the sperm and egg is enough to give us consciousness as a certain being when we could've been so many other things? if we have no soul, then wouldn't we be technically immortal? what would be the absolute purpose of our birth when we are born, and our death when we die. you could have been so many different things, you could have been born so many different times and places, but it only happens in one mysteriously designed way. i really believe there is a higher being within me.

Personally I think the whole "soul" stuff has been mistranslated and misinterpreted?

I think that we do not have a soul, we are souls.

Your soul is who you are, your identity, the "I" that can say "I am".

Our soul exists as long as we are alive, at death our soul ends, no heaven or hell, just non-existence.

The promise of heaven or paradise is one of recreation, a perfect copy, with all the memories, thoughts and dreams of the original, better then the original .

we have always been and we will always be


life here on earth is but a dream of the true spiritual world from whence we came and to where we will return

a dejavue is a rememberance from before we came here to earth to let us know (remind us) from whence we came

when we shed our shells we will still be here but how will we relate to it is the question. Will you be in peace or turmoil trying to scream out for people to hear you but most won't be able to hear you because they will still be here in their dream. Or will you be at peace with the other good souls who have surrendered all things here on earth for the truth of eternity and from whence we came and to where we hopefully will return in peace ! Or will you be stuck in a turmoil trying to resolve what you did while on earth and yet knowing yo had your chance but its too late now, except for maybe those who have moved on to a place of peace who might have prayed for the children due to the sins of the fathers. (generally speaking) You may also have people who are stll here in their dreams praying for you in hopes that some time or space you will move on from that turmoil you created while you were here on earth. Those enlightened souls and spirits will surely have a wonderful place of peace for their eternity. maybe your life which brought you to a place of turmoil will be allowed to transcend or come back in another body to finally make peace with your self / soul / spirit