Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've just discovered several medical reports and a lot of information on 'Harry Benjamin Syndrome', which seems to support transsexualism being an intersex condition, and I wanted to know everyone's opinion on this. :)

I'm not trying to equate my experience or circumstances with those intersex people face, but what I am curious about is if any of you are made angry by the thought that we may all be a part of the same intersex family?

From a logical point of view, I don't see how our being categorised as intersex could be a bad thing. It allows us to explain to people that we have a biological problem, not a psychiatric one, and helps us to access medical treatment, and it also gives the intersex community a bunch more backers. :P

So I guess I'm just respectfully asking, does this thought make you angry, and if so, why? :)

My personal opinions on the matter I have already stated. :)

However, so far, I have not seen someone get actually angry over this suggestion, although I know that some on the other hand do disagree with it.
Ironically, I have on the other hand seen MTF's getting angry if they are not considered Intersexed.

However for some reason, I have so far not seen a single FTM getting angry over it. Either it is a pure coincidence or either it is not. ???

Hahaha, yeah I've made the forum rounds with this one tonight I'm afraid! Will go about it in a more uniform manner next time I think...my apologies to everyone! :P

Lol No worry.
You are just being... Thorough. ;D

Quote from: Bishounen on January 16, 2012, 10:07:39 AM
Lol No worry.
You are just being... Thorough. ;D

Pfff, I think you're being a little too kind to me there. :P

I didn't want to put my first question into the 'Intersex Talk' board because it was a topic aimed at trans people, and at the time I was unaware that the MTF and FTM boards shared a 'Transsexual Talk' board, so it got posted twice. I'll know in future! :P

This however is a different question to the one I posted before, which is not about whether or not we should be grouped together, but about why intersex people might not like such an eventuality. So I suppose I can still feel at least a little justified in taking up peoples' time! :P

  I agree with this, i'd rather say I'm intersex and have Harry Benjamin Syndrome then to say I have transsexualism.

Quote from: Danielle×o on January 17, 2012, 05:02:08 PM
  I agree with this, i'd rather say I'm intersex and have Harry Benjamin Syndrome then to say I have transsexualism.

WHY?! Because - then it's not your 'fault'? -

You born transsexual as you born intersex, - unless you buy into the idea the transsexualism is a "Life Choice"... or Life Style...

Hum,
Axélle

 That would be my reason for supporting that the transsexual label be put down as a form of intersex condition, Axelle. It would hopefully draw less enmity from conservative religious groups like that, as well as foster greater sympathy and acceptance and all that jazz.

Lots of people view it as a mere choice - a disgusting one in many cases. I'm tired of my friends losing family over it... breaks my heart every single time. It is only a choice insofar that one must choose between an (often) expensive, dangerous, and (sometimes) humiliating course of action in order to achieve happiness, or a future filled with regret, depression, and potential madness to avoid being an object of some people's hatred.

Transsexuality is often an intersex condition, as far as it currently indicated by research and common sense. The trials are dissimilar to those experienced by other intersex conditions... but such is the nature of anything that would fall under such a wide definition. There are already multiple ways for intersexuality to express itself - transsexuality, a body-brain sexual dimorphism, would merely be another in an already-populated flock.

Being transsexually (new word necessary) intersexed can be as different from reproductively intersexed conditions as androgyny is to transsexualiy is to transvestism under the "transgender" umbrella. I don't think there needs to be fear over what a merge would do to damage the name of classic intersexuality... but I believe there is a lot to gain by it from many individuals.

Mmmm. Time for a snack. :D

It doesn't make me angry.. It just that some are willing to grasp at straws.. Straws created by those who are unqualified to do so..

Have a read of these:
http://harrybenjaminsyndrome-not-transsexual.com/ (http://harrybenjaminsyndrome-not-transsexual.com/)
http://www.science20.com/quantum_gravity/blog/harry_benjamin_syndrome_revealed_naked_bigotry_some_transwomen_against_others (http://www.science20.com/quantum_gravity/blog/harry_benjamin_syndrome_revealed_naked_bigotry_some_transwomen_against_others)
http://tgnonsense.wordpress.com/2008/08/15/the-hypocracy-of-the-hbs-movement/ (http://tgnonsense.wordpress.com/2008/08/15/the-hypocracy-of-the-hbs-movement/)
http://www.crossdreamers.com/2010/08/hbs-1-harry-benjamin-syndrome-part-1.html (http://www.crossdreamers.com/2010/08/hbs-1-harry-benjamin-syndrome-part-1.html)

Not to mention the fact that even Harry admitted he was wrong about some of what he originally wrote.. Or that he'd be rolling in his grave to have his name associated with this 'syndrome'..

Rather than thinking in terms of how much proof there isn't, maybe we should be thinking about this from a different angle? There have been a lot of studies in the last few years that support transsexualism being based in physical aspects of the body. No proof has ever been found to support that transsexualism is a mental disorder. If we're going to argue about how much proof there isn't, this is something that needs to be taken into account. Based on the actual evidence, it would be 'grasping at straws' to say that this is a mental condition and not a physical one.

Quote from: Bane on January 18, 2012, 03:08:26 AM
Rather than thinking in terms of how much proof there isn't, maybe we should be thinking about this from a different angle? There have been a lot of studies in the last few years that support transsexualism being based in physical aspects of the body. No proof has ever been found to support that transsexualism is a mental disorder. If we're going to argue about how much proof there isn't, this is something that needs to be taken into account. Based on the actual evidence, it would be 'grasping at straws' to say that this is a mental condition and not a physical one.

My issue is that HBS is a theory - one without peer reviewed studies.. And the attitude of those suggesting it.. I don't believe transsexualism is a mental illness, not by a long stretch.. There has been little enough research done and the HBS crowd's attitude isn't going to help the medical profession take them seriously..

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 18, 2012, 05:35:55 AM
My issue is that HBS is a theory - one without peer reviewed studies.. And the attitude of those suggesting it.. I don't believe transsexualism is a mental illness, not by a long stretch.. There has been little enough research done and the HBS crowd's attitude isn't going to help the medical profession take them seriously..

I do understand what you're saying about it being a theory, and that's true; at this particular point in time we don't have any solid proof, or the medical opinion on the matter would have changed. But if being trans isn't a mental condition, then logic dictates it must be a physical one, or vice versa.

Until you posted the links to those blogs and articles I was unaware that there was a 'bad attitude' surrounding HBS. I agree the elitist attitude is regrattable and uncalled for, but I do not personally subscribe to it (as I would hope is evident in my posts), and I don't think that some peoples' unfair approach to the subject should detract from it's over all validity.

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on January 18, 2012, 05:53:57 AM
Well honey,
now you DO sound like a "non-real-transsexual" , but hey, we'll accept you whether you now real or not-real...

Excuse me?!

That is uncalled for and rude, and I am both offended and disgusted by the tone you're taking with me in these discussions. I have been nothing but professional and courteous with my approach to this subject, and that kind of personal attack is unwarranted.

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on January 18, 2012, 05:53:57 AM
->-bleeped-<-, then HBS, ... bring it on, what next.
Any more discredited stuff we can get some exited about? :-)

There are no grounds for comparing an offensive and ridiculous term with a respectful definition of a medical condition. Again, you're being antagonistic without cause or provocation.

Quote from: Bane on January 18, 2012, 05:47:46 AM
I do understand what you're saying about it being a theory, and that's true; at this particular point in time we don't have any solid proof, or the medical opinion on the matter would have changed. But if being trans isn't a mental condition, then logic dictates it must be a physical one, or vice versa.

Until you posted the links to those blogs and articles I was unaware that there was a 'bad attitude' surrounding HBS. I agree the elitist attitude is regrattable and uncalled for, but I do not personally subscribe to it (as I would hope is evident in my posts), and I don't think that some peoples' unfair approach to the subject should detract from it's over all validity.

Funnily enough, they were most of the links on the first page of a Google search I did...

Even WPATH has moved away from tanssexualism being a mental illness, but there's simply not enough research to have it honestly classified.. And we should be thankful that therapists et al realised we were a group that needed treatment - otherwise a lot more of us would simply end up dead..

Did you catch that HBS is a theory created by a non-medical professional? I've got a few theories myself, which are at least based on existing research.. I'm not about to go espousing them as good science and creating my own SoC's to go with them..

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 18, 2012, 06:07:44 AM
Did you catch that HBS is a theory created by a non-medical professional? I've got a few theories myself, which are at least based on existing research...

I did catch that yes. Did you not catch the existing medical research on which the theory is based?

Nowhere have I said it's certain, I simply raised this topic for discussion. And purely so I know what you're getting at, what is an SoC?

SoC = Standards of Care.. WPATH^[1] publish the one that covers the treatment of trangendered people..

And yes, I have looked at the research they are basing the theory on.. Frankly, it really has no more or less merit than any of the other theories.. And frankly, HBS is not something old Harry would want associated with his name.

Simply, right now, there is no known cause or reason and all the wishing or theories are not going to produce one. The only thing that will provide a cause or reason is hard, scientific research - research that sadly is not being done or has such a small sample size as to make any conclusion somewhat dubious..

And to acquire the title of Intersex simply to avoid stigma is simply dishonest and disrespectful..

[1] WPATH - World Professional Association of Transgender Health (Formerly The Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association) And you may wish to note that they are quite separate from those espousing HBS..

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 18, 2012, 06:38:47 AM
SoC = Standards of Care.. WPATH publish the one that covers the treatment of trangendered people..

Who here is making their own SoC?

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 18, 2012, 06:38:47 AMAnd to acquire the title of Intersex simply to avoid stigma is simply dishonest and disrespectful..

I would like to be able to identify as intersex yes, to avoid social stigma, but also so that I am able to gain access to medical treatment, insurance, and a basic level of human respect and understanding from the medical community. I should not have had to experience doctors laughing at me when I try to explain my condition to them, but I have, and I'm sure many others can say the same.

I would call this motivation a long way off from 'simple', and I have no understanding of how it could be construed to be dishonest if medically proven, or disrespectful of the intersex community.

We will never all agree on this, but the discussion is an interesting one. :)

Quote from: Bane on January 18, 2012, 06:47:09 AM
Who here is making their own SoC?

WPATH is a professional association comprising of therapists, endocrinologists, gynaecologists and general doctors and surgeons. There is floating around somewhere a set of SoC's set out by the person/people who are promoting HBS, none of whom are medical professionals..

QuoteI would like to be able to identify as intersex yes, to avoid social stigma, but also so that I am able to gain access to medical treatment, insurance, and a basic level of human respect and understanding from the medical community. I should not have had to experience doctors laughing at me when I try to explain my condition to them, but I have, and I'm sure many others can say the same.

Find a medical professional that practices with some ethics and compassion.. NONE of the members of the medical profession I've spoken to about this have ever laughed at me - and if they did, they'd find they had practising license issues.. The kind of doctor that laughs at you is not going to care how it's classified, they are just ->-bleeped-<-s..

QuoteI would call this motivation a long was off from 'simple', and I have no understanding of how it could be construed to be dishonest if medically proven, or disrespectful of the intersex community.

We will never all agree on this, but the discussion is an interesting one. :)

It's currently dishonest because there is no research to either really support or rebut the idea..

You want to know what my main issue with HBS is? Apart from the fact those that promote it are quite bigoted.. It's simply that it's far, far to specific.. Most transsexuals would not make the grade - leaving them in limbo without treatment..

Here's another theory for you, one with just as much research to support it as HBS.. Transsexualism is caused by incorrect hormonal washes during foetal development..

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 18, 2012, 07:04:38 AM
Here's another theory for you, one with just as much research to support it as HBS.. Transsexualism is caused by incorrect hormonal washes during foetal development..

How is this not a physical correlation? (Or for that matter, part of the research in support of HBS (where HBS = a physical intersex condition)?)

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 18, 2012, 07:04:38 AMFind a medical professional that practices with some ethics and compassion.. NONE of the members of the medical profession I've spoken to about this have ever laughed at me - and if they did, they'd find they had practising license issues.. The kind of doctor that laughs at you is not going to care how it's classified, they are just ->-bleeped-<-s..

I agree, but I'd have more of a foot to stand on when defending myself if my condition were seen as 'legitimate'. Also, what about the lovely doctors out there who want to help, but have their hands tied by the rest of the medical community when it comes to treating us? We should not have to go through mandatory (in most places) psychological counselling, periods of dangerous and restricting 'RLE', and otherwise humiliating mental tests simply in order to access treatment. And insurance is a huge and very important resource to take into account.

HBS was simply puting a name to it, and personally I'm fine with that being tossed aside if it is found to be incorrect, if HB's partner says he would have hated it, or for any other reasons anyone cares to bring up. 'Harry Benjamin Syndrome' was a way for me to address the issue of trans people being condsidered intersex, not the issue itself. Though in hindsight I will accept a fair chunk of responsibility for titling the thread the way I did.

What I think may have been missed here (please actually read my opening post before jumping down my throat) was that I was asking why intersex people would be angry if trans people were included under the same umbrella; a question which has yet to be answered with any other kind of response than 'because it's lying!'.

Quote from: Bane on January 18, 2012, 07:19:54 AM
How is this not a physical correlation? (Or for that matter, part of the research in support of HBS (where HBS = a physical intersex condition)?)

HBS was simply puting a name to it, and personally I'm fine with that being tossed aside if it is found to be incorrect, if HB's partner says he would have hated it, or for any other reasons anyone cares to bring up. 'Harry Benjamin Syndrome' was a way for me to address the issue of trans people being condsidered intersex, not the issue itself. Though in hindsight I will accept a fair chunk of responsibility for titling the thread the way I did.

What I think may have been missed here (please actually read my opening post before jumping down my throat) was that I was asking why intersex people would be angry if trans people were included under the same umbrella; a question which has yet to be answered with any other kind of response than 'because it's lying!'.

I believe it is a physical issue, but as I'm most certainly a transsexual and boringly normal, at least from a hormonal, genetic and chromosomal standpoint, I find it hard to see where I'd fit in to the Intersex side of things..

And having asked the question of someone I know who is Intersexed, she certainly wasn't angry, but was quite clear that her Klinefelters and her transsexualism were separate issues..

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 18, 2012, 07:30:33 AM
I believe it is a physical issue, but as I'm most certainly a transsexual and boringly normal, at least from a hormonal, genetic and chromosomal standpoint, I find it hard to see where I'd fit in to the Intersex side of things..

And having asked the question of someone I know who is Intersexed, she certainly wasn't angry, but was quite clear that her Klinefelters and her transsexualism were separate issues..

Thank you. :)

Personally, I don't think we have a way of being completely certain of these things yet; there is still so much about the human brain and body we don't know. I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for any new research! :P

Bane, you are ruffling feathers because of what HBS represents and the kind of people who support it. My andro dyke self, for example, would be excluded from the diagnosis. So it's kind of hard for me to see any value to the concept.

Also, you aren't really going to find any intersex folk here. They don't generally inhabit trans spaces unless they also identify as trans, regardless of the name of this board. You'd need to go to an actual intersex forum if you want to talk to them.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 18, 2012, 09:04:20 AMBane, you are ruffling feathers because of what HBS represents and the kind of people who support it.

A fact I'm being made increasingly aware of! :P It was not my intention to do so, and I think in future I'll be certain to keep all mention of HBS out of my posts; it's not proving to be a very useful tool when proposing the future integration of trans and intersex people.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 18, 2012, 09:04:20 AMAlso, you aren't really going to find any intersex folk here. They don't generally inhabit trans spaces unless they also identify as trans, regardless of the name of this board. You'd need to go to an actual intersex forum if you want to talk to them.

Yeah, I can see that now. Normally I don't stray out of the FTM section of the forum, so I was unaware of the lack of intersex people here. I think I'll wait a little while, and allow my diplomacy metre to fill back up, before I head on over to one such place to ask the question again. :P

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 18, 2012, 09:04:20 AM
Bane, you are ruffling feathers because of what HBS represents and the kind of people who support it. My andro dyke self, for example, would be excluded from the diagnosis. So it's kind of hard for me to see any value to the concept.

I definitely disagree that Bane, on a whole, "ruffles feathers" as he is merely bringing up a very noteworthy subject, that also evidentily bare direct importance in some aspects.
Given, he is nonetheless certainly "ruffling feathers" of some, as there are some that do get their undies in a twist because of this subject. However, I consider that as just being healthy, as it provokes thinking and new ideas, instead of everyone just sitting in a group and agreeing on each other with the exactly same ideas and jargongs.

QuoteAlso, you aren't really going to find any intersex folk here. They don't generally inhabit trans spaces unless they also identify as trans, regardless of the name of this board. You'd need to go to an actual intersex forum if you want to talk to them.

I think you mean "on this forum"- Not board.

At susan's, there are plenty of Intersexed individuals that may or may not identify as transgendered as there are simply a Sub-forum for those right here on this TG-board.
However, it is a fact that quite many people that matches the so called HBS-transsexual, do indeed have intersexed Conditions, such as, for instance, Kleinfelters being perhaps one of the most common of those.
Often the Transsexual is even totally unaware about even having this condition, and do often not learn about it until when either having Blood Tests done as a routine before starting Hormones(such as Caroline Cossey, that before the tests had no idea of it at all), or, when having totally unrelated happenings and accidents, such as Chloe Prince, that was living as a man at the time and did not learn about his condition until having an accident, which revealed Klienfelters.
This means, that the number of undetected selfidentified transsexuals with Intersex Conditions that goes without detection because they selfmedicate, are much larger than those that are detected.
Ofcourse, it also at the same time means that those that do not selfidentify as Transgendered at all and yet have this Condition, is larger, too.

In either case, I see no reason to specifically seek out an Intersex Board, as it doesn't really say anything else than that some Intersexed people do not identify as Transsexuals and hence seek out a territory of their own.

Quote from: Bane on January 18, 2012, 09:13:45 AM
I think I'll wait a little while, and allow my diplomacy metre to fill back up, before I head on over to one such place to ask the question again. :P

Aww, I'm sorry we've been giving you a hard time. The girls do tend to bite a bit harder than the boys on these forums. ;)

I am very impressed you've managed to remain unfailingly polite throughout.

Quote from: Sarah7 on January 18, 2012, 09:33:38 AM
Aww, I'm sorry we've been giving you a hard time. The girls do tend to bite a bit harder than the boys on these forums. ;)

I am very impressed you've managed to remain unfailingly polite throughout.

Thank you very much. :D

Hahaha, I had noticed that the guys seem a little more 'chill' on the subject than the girls. :P

@Bane
Here is why the girls get chafed.

Imagine you had Metoidioplasty and the some non-scientific smart-ass syndrome expert(s), based on some old guys findings HB, tells you you did it just so you always wanted to know it is to have a dick...
That's your only motivation dude, - if otherwise you got your act together i.e. are not a nut.

Maybe that will give some idea?

In fact EVEN to USE words like "vagina" or "clitoris" or even "female" (now it better be AFAB) is a generally banned thing to do on the FtM side, yes?
I know, I made the mistake and not all in only one post either. So we learn.

The comparable words do NOT cause any of that hoe-ha with MtFs, not that I ever noticed.

So, now we just figured out that being a "not-transsexual-at-birth" according to this HBS idea, makes you some sort of second rate trans-women (if at all!) – and then gracefully accepted, oh how NICE that is to know.

This is NOT against your innocent enquiry, it is to explain the emotions that are stirred.

@ Sara Louise
Now I really hope this is still in the realm of being civil and friendly - I shall see, um.

Axélle

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on January 18, 2012, 10:31:06 AM
@Bane
Here is why the girls get chafed.

Thank you Axelle, I am aware of that now, and as I have said I won't be using HBS as an example in future; I now realise that it's a lot more on the wrong side than the kind of term/condition I was aiming for. :)

I think that transexuality is probably actually an intersex condition; however, until there is enough peer reviewed research that indicates this condition has a physical cause we are probably going to have to continue to work under the diagnosis of GID in order to get treatment, even if we don't think it is a mental condition.  If we are experiencing gender dysphoria we can agree that we are experiencing emotional discomfort, but the treatment is physical (except for some quacks that want to convince us its in our minds).  This is why we have WPATH though. 

However, there are plenty of intersex folks who are not transexual.  Though being able to be under the intersex banner might make life easier for transexuals, the same thing could be accomplished through continued education (of the general public and the medical community) and by continued scientific research. 

If they wanted to, gays and lesbians could make a similar claim saying that they too have an intersex condition (of the portion of the brain responsible for sexual orientation) and that the condition is physical, yet there is not enough scientific evidence for this, plus, even though sexual orientation is part of one's sexuality, it would cause some strife trying to include sexual orientation into a category of gender.

Admitedly, if I could say that I have wet cat syndrome and it would get me help with HRT and SRS I could probably go along with it (but I would have to draw the line at wet dog syndrome - OK, back to seriousness . . . )

I am intersexed and would be happy to give you my thoughts, I will try and do this later tonight. I keep starting a post but there is alot to comment on so I think I need to read this several times more and collect my thoughts. And I dont really know anything about this so called theory so I am going to try and read a bit of it but I will hit on what I think about transsexual and intersexual being grouped together.

Quote from: drkprincess on January 18, 2012, 09:25:40 PMAnd I dont really know anything about this so called theory so I am going to try and read a bit of it but I will hit on what I think about transsexual and intersexual being grouped together.

It's actually probably better if you don't. I think it's obvious that that specific label or classification is not an acceptable one. The basic idea of it is still sound in my mind though, which was that if trans people can be determined to have a physical abnormality in the brain causing their condition, then they could be considered to be a particular kind of 'intersex'. The root of it being to form the idea that being trans is a physical condition based in the brain, and not a mental one. :)

Quote from: Bane on January 18, 2012, 09:33:44 PM
It's actually probably better if you don't. I think it's obvious that that specific label or classification is not an acceptable one. The basic idea of it is still sound in my mind though, which was that if trans people can be determined to have a physical abnormality in the brain causing their condition, then they could be considered to be a particular kind of 'intersex'. The root of it being to form the idea that being trans is a physical condition based in the brain, and not a mental one. :)

This is sort of a different issue, but I'd just like to mention that all mental conditions are essentially a physical abnormality of the brain. We are chunks of meat when it comes right down to it, and "mental issues" are not some ephemera in the "consciousness" they are things that are physically occurring inside the control centre of our bodies. The reason they tend to be grouped separately mostly has to do with the fact that our brains are damn complicated and we have a ways to go before we figure out exactly how they work.

I kinda feel the obsessive desire to have transsexualism declassified as a mental condition is a bit... well, it just has to do with the stigma associated with mental conditions. A lot of the conditions in the DSM have physical treatments like pills or surgery, not just GID. Anyway, I always find that distinction between mental and physical a bit dishonest, 'cause in the end it is all physical. There isn't anything else for it to be.