Susan's Place Transgender Resources

We all talk about Passing but I'm wondering what it is we actually mean.

In it's purest interpretation it means "Indistinguishable from a born female under any circumstances."
Such a person would be able to go Deep Stealth and marry a guy who would never realise, but in general we probably mean a much looser definition than that.
Personally I'd like to be able to walk down the street and NEVER have some yob Out me or shout abuse.  It doesn't happen that often, but it does happen regularly.  I would like to pass in the street, to casual onlookers and to people I have short interactions with like shop-assistants.  Being Read by those who become closer friends etc bothers me less because they get to know The Person rather than the superficial snap judgement we all make with first impressions.  Like a person with a bad disfigurement or similar, after a bit one doesn't really see it any longer; they just become your friend and the other thing just fades into the background.

There are lots of different levels of it.  Passing until we speak?  Passing until someone has engaged us in conversation for a few minutes?  Passing until we take our makeup off? Passing until we strip? 

So .....what do we generally mean when we say Passing?

Passing for me is just looking female for a second, until people put two and two together and realize you're trans.
Which most become cool with.

I don't mind if I couldn't pass for cis.

Quote from: Steffi on February 29, 2012, 11:48:17 PM
We all talk about Passing but I'm wondering what it is we actually mean.

In it's purest interpretation it means "Indistinguishable from a born female under any circumstances."
Such a person would be able to go Deep Stealth and marry a guy who would never realise, but in general we probably mean a much looser definition than that.
Personally I'd like to be able to walk down the street and NEVER have some yob Out me or shout abuse.  It doesn't happen that often, but it does happen regularly.  I would like to pass in the street, to casual onlookers and to people I have short interactions with like shop-assistants.  Being Read by those who become closer friends etc bothers me less because they get to know The Person rather than the superficial snap judgement we all make with first impressions.  Like a person with a bad disfigurement or similar, after a bit one doesn't really see it any longer; they just become your friend and the other thing just fades into the background.

There are lots of different levels of it.  Passing until we speak?  Passing until someone has engaged us in conversation for a few minutes?  Passing until we take our makeup off? Passing until we strip? 

So .....what do we generally mean when we say Passing?

I'm all with what you say Steffi.
Passing = to me, not to be accosted, ridiculed, feeling good about being correctly gendered (pronoun-ed), being able to change odd looks to acceptance and a friendly response, or at lest being plain tolerated if all else fails.
If my make-up is off, and my cloths are off --- honey, now WHO are you kidding?

Not myself - not as yet. Another level required to practice - self-tolerance.
And THAT after SRS and some boobies to boot. Lack of booty... yeah, well – and then again so many ggs hate theirs!
At least no cellulite, no south-pointing nipples on droopy mega jugs... you see, ... now who is perfect?
Not even models after a while.
Let's can the tears and cheer up, I say :-)

Take care,
Axélle

Use of the term "passing", akin to "stealth" and syn-analogous with deception, is the conscious act of trying to be something you otherwise know your not.

( a 'lil explanation added: in ref wayyy back to Kate's 'ole "passing vs acceptance" debate and which is more important -> passing almost by definition implies acceptance but, in being by outward appearances only, relies heavily on another's concept of what amounts to "feminine" whereas acceptance, while not necessarily dependent upon passing, grants the presenter much more latitude and confirmation in simply being allowed to be more "authentic" to his or her true inner-self, whatever that may be. The former is defining in a limiting sort of way and the other is much more individually Liberating Indeed ! )

i suppose it's a matter of priorities which change everyday as we grow older and wiser; ie: i'd rather be ACCEPTED as a good parent/person in general any day than merely as a statically passing man or woman". Have you ever looked at Clown fish sexuality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphiprioninae#Reproduction)? lol I'm sure some would say we fit the behavioral title role rather perfectly ?

I despise the word pass, I feel fake when I hear it. I'm not trying to pass myself off as anything. I am a woman. I am a trans woman but that does not matter. I project myself to others as a woman and that's really all there is to it. There is no passing, I am a woman no matter what I look like. Now going stealth is entirely different, going stealth to me means you have the ability to project yourself as a genetic woman. Which is something I will never be able to do, and that's ok because I am true to myself. The only person I am passing myself off as is Gretchen.

How I see "passing" is being confident enough with how one presents to others, that the others aren't concerned with what they're looking at.

In other words, some days I might look mannish, but confidence (indifference?) will help others accept me. Other days I might be more girlish, and again confidence will help others accept me. They may or may not know/suspect/ponder my "status", but they'll work with me as just another human being.

(Mmm...I had a small thought there...maybe it's not "confidence" so much as it is just not caring how/what others "read" about me...indifference + confidence?)

Quote from: JoeyD on March 01, 2012, 12:23:27 AM
Passing for me is just looking female for a second, until people put two and two together and realize you're trans.
Which most become cool with.

I don't mind if I couldn't pass for cis.

You know you look great joey, so i really can't imagine you not passing ;)

Quote from: Beth AndreaHow I see "passing" is being confident enough with how one presents to others, that the others aren't concerned with what they're looking at.

In other words, some days I might look mannish, but confidence (indifference?) will help others accept me. Other days I might be more girlish, and again confidence will help others accept me. They may or may not know/suspect/ponder my "status", but they'll work with me as just another human being.

That is much as I live.
I don't give a hoot whether people Read me or not as long as they 1) Don't attack/assault me  and 2) Interact with me as female.
I walk around in the full knowledge that I am rarely mistaken for a cis woman - though it definitely does sometimes happen.

I think it's a bit oversensitive to find the term Passing irritating or offensive.

I do think though that since the word and the concept get bandied around very frequently, it is sensible to understand how we interpret exactly what it means.  :)

Great question.

My goal is to present in a way that doesn't shock people to the point where all they focus on is my being trans. Some might call it blending or maybe just "being acceptable". I'm treated as a woman which is all I really care about.

For example, I don't want to speak with a guys voice, have them turn and see a woman or vice versa. Like wise I try to dress appropriate for the situation but I also don't mine being "dressed up" a bit more than what would be considered normal. i.e. I would never just throw on some old jeans and a ratty shirt to go to the grocery store, but I also am not going there in a party dress either. I have my own style and what I think makes me attractive. I'm not trying to blend so much that I insist on being a sheep and look like everyone else out of fear of being clocked as trans. But as I said I don't want being trans to be the focus of who I am either.

You know 'being treated as female' can quite often mean being patronised, talked-down-to, or shuffled to the back.   Often the ones doing all this are other females.   My mother's cronies talk about other women as if they were speaking of a sworn enemy.  Most men will tell you what they think of you verbally or by their body language.  Women will smile in your face, agree with everything you say, and run your down in private.

Didn't Napoleon once say that a woman's enemy is not a man but other women?

Passing is being seen in your desired side of the gender binary enough that people assume you physically belong on that side of the binary. This goes along with societal gender roles. I actually wrote a pretty long post about this sort of thing. See below

---

I had gotten into a bit of a discussion on facebook. I had put a lot of work into this reply, but I didn't get much of a response. I guess maybe it was too much to rebuttal. I enjoy a healthy, mutual, and respectful debate of each other's views on things; and I am interested in hearing all of your views on this subject.

I had brought up the topic of passing. Another person said that passing is silly and that gender binaries are "passé" and that she passes as a human and that is all she needs. Well this got me to thinking. So I typed up this.... long winded reply. And here it is.

------


The gender binary is believed to be a construct of our modern society. But the fact is it's been around for as long as there has been breathing creatures on this planet. Virtually all forms of sentient life live under this gender binary. Why? Because there are females and there are males. This is a physiological fact that holds true in millions of forms of life.

I'm not talking about Gender Roles, because you and I both know that a lot of traditional gender roles are silly. No, what I'm talking about is our very natural, evolutionarily driven gender binary. Perhaps mentally there is a "third gender" – but as far as nature cares, that third gender might as well never exist. Men use sperm to fertilize a female egg. We procreate, we survive, and we thrive. This "third gender" cannot survive without the natural gender binary of nature.

The sociological aspect of this gender binary makes perfect sense. The reason why women are women and men are men is simple to understand, that is how our evolutionary drive to procreate works. It is much simpler to have distinct, identifiable differences between the two sexes for easier procreation. You can find this everywhere in nature, look up sexual dimorphism. Our gender roles are largely evolutionarily driven.

Men were in charge because men were physically stronger due to testosterone acting as a strong steroid. Only recently in our modern society have women started to gain power and rights. Gender roles change over time and are as diverse as the number of cultures we have represented on earth. If you wish to exist in any society, you must "do as the romans do". You are pretty much required to live by their gender roles.

Why? Disregarding these gender roles in the very best of circumstances, you'll be viewed awkwardly; people may avoid you and without a doubt ridicule you behind your back. Even in the "AMAZING USA" you can be lawfully terminated from your job just for being Trans in a staggering number of states. In other societies you can be jailed and even executed.

While some of the gender roles that we face are silly and completely arbitrary, it's better to follow them and attempt to change them rather than completely disregard them. You'll live more peacefully and the people near you won't be uncomfortable. You can live a safer and more stable life.

I do agree that our traditional gender roles need to change and that is happening. But disregarding them is foolhardy and even unsafe.

I would venture to guess that you probably follow a good chunk of these gender binary specific fundamentals and even the gender roles assigned to these binaries by your society. Things such as taking estrogen, growing breasts and having an otherwise female appearance are basal to the female side of the binary. Now, I bet you also have long hair, maybe wear makeup, and various other things that are all nothing more than gender roles assigned by society to that gender binary. I bet even the name that you've chosen is following that gender role.

You may not like gender roles or your miseducated idea of what gender binaries are, but you sure do follow them pretty well.

The "Third Gender" mentioned above may seem cool. But when our gender roles are based on a nature driven gender binary, there really isn't much of a place for that third gender. So the best we have is to grit our teeth and conform to the gender binaries of our society and work to change what we dislike.

Passing is the act of dropping it down a gear and getting around that slowpoke! Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Samantharz on March 01, 2012, 06:56:26 PM
Passing is being seen in your desired side of the gender binary enough that people assume you physically belong on that side of the binary. This goes along with societal gender roles. I actually wrote a pretty long post about this sort of thing. See below

You left out "To me". I'm going to assume you just forgot to include that..

Oh and one small point on this binary theory of yours. Following your logic posted below, none of us could ever possibly be a woman and there is no reason for us to even exist. Glad I don't live in that hell.

To me, passing is being seen and accepted as your correct gender..

For me, passing means that the individual interacting with me accepts me as a female and treats me as they would treat any other female.  It doesn't matter if internally that they recognize me as born male or not - I will likely never know unless they express that in some way.  In that case, I would say that I am not passing with that person.  However, that doesn't mean that my presentation is at fault - it could be something to do with that individual that causes them to not accept me as a female, when many other individuals do.  I would only begin to look for fault with my presentation if I were "not passing" with many people that I interact with in public.

Quote from: Stephe on March 01, 2012, 11:06:31 PM
You left out "To me". I'm going to assume you just forgot to include that..

Oh and one small point on this binary theory of yours. Following your logic posted below, none of us could ever possibly be a woman and there is no reason for us to even exist. Glad I don't live in that hell.

I'm really interested in hearing your point of view. When I say that I want to "Pass" as female, that means I want to be accepted by society as female unquestionably. I'm pretty sure that is what most (if not all) trans-people mean when they use the term "pass". To pass to society, in any society, you must adopt their gender roles.

And as for the hell you mentioned, that's really outside the scope of this thread and get's more philosophical. For now, let's just talk about what passing is, since that is what this thread is about.

Quote from: Beverley on March 02, 2012, 11:19:27 AM
No it is not. The reason why men are men and women are women is because of our genetics which dictate our hormone levels. As Professor Money demonstrated many years ago, you cannot socialise a gender role into people. It has to be there to start with. David Reimer and his brother paid the ultmate price to demonstrate that.

Beverley

I'm interested in hearing more about this. But if you read even further I did address that. It's a form of sexual dimorphism brought on by hormones, and in terms of cis-people this is because of genetics.

When my mother has had  a bad day at the office she quite often says out-loud to no one in particular: "women are only here to make up the numbers".  My mother has always displayed a certain ambivalence about being female.

Quote from: Gretchen on March 01, 2012, 08:12:26 AM
I despise the word pass, I feel fake when I hear it. I'm not trying to pass myself off as anything. I am a woman. I am a trans woman but that does not matter. I project myself to others as a woman and that's really all there is to it. There is no passing, I am a woman no matter what I look like....
I am true to myself. The only person I am passing myself off as is Gretchen.

I love this response because I've spent many years feeling like a fake in either role, feeling that I "passed", barely, in only just one of them.

My definition of "Passing" has evolved over time and circumstances with the bar always being set higher. Step 1 was the obvious not having stones, real or verbal, cast at you. Step 2, no long intense staring as you see the lookers brain processing what you may be. There have been a few other steps to reach the one I did the other day, having a guy hit on me, something I never anticipated, much less planned for.

I think with self-acceptance comes acceptance. At least that how it seems to be working out for me.

Passing to me means, blending into society, being seen, treated and accepted as female.

Quote from: Samantharz on March 02, 2012, 10:44:42 AM
I'm really interested in hearing your point of view. When I say that I want to "Pass" as female, that means I want to be accepted by society as female unquestionably. I'm pretty sure that is what most (if not all) trans-people mean when they use the term "pass". To pass to society, in any society, you must adopt their gender roles.

There is the problem I originally addressed, you assumed everyone shares your view. It's the same reason no one responded to your other gender theory port. It's just your opinion being posted but it was written in the style of "OK folks, here is how things really are." It's why I said "You left out "'For me'". Plus I would never assume my views are "what most (if not all) trans-people mean" about anything given the HUGE variations in this community. I can disagree with their logic and some don't understand the correct semantics but I can't know what the majority think.

If you read through the posts in this thread, many people said: passing = being seen and treated as a woman in their daily lives. Passing as -female- isn't the same thing.