Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hellow everyone,

I've been sort of fiddling with my voice lately, trying to find a range that would be passable. I'd appreciate it if you could leave a critique of it, what I should improve on, etc.

I know it's short - I just had no idea what to say, really. Keep in mind I've just started practicing it (like two weeks ago), so I have yet to fully develop it. I'd just like to know if I'm going in the right direction, because I truly can't tell.

I've also spoken in my male voice for comparison, so don't be alarmed. ;D

http://youtu.be/YI6d6DJbHyg

Thank you!

P.S. Sorry for the dumb accent.

  Buy a tuner or DL a free web tuner and practice with it. Typical female voice is around 220 Hz so try and get between 170-190 Hz and then once you're comfortable talking in that range try and take it a little further. I think the breaking point between male & female voices is like 165 Hz.

  I highly recommend Kathie Perez for voice lessons, she is worth the money.

Thanks for the advice, I thought the average female voice was much lower than that.

As far as Kathe Perez goes, her course is really expensive, so I'll first try getting it on my own and if I fail, I'll do the 2-month (or so) thing she has going.

A good start.  The pitch is a fraction on the low side, but that's safe to begin with.  As you get more practice in you should be able to pitch up higher.

One thing to watch for is when you pitch down for inflections in sentences, as you pitch down you are tending to allow the sound to come from the chest.

Thank you for the encouraging post, Luna. I'll work on raising my pitch gradually and keeping my chest voice locked out.

MacKenzie:

Is Kathe Perez an actual trainer you interact with or a set of CDs? I looked over her website and I think I could do with some lessons in the technical aspects of voice. I've managed a very convincing one, but I feel like it's so unstable. I recently lost it for a bit. I need to find a consistent way to control the level I feel comfortable with.

I'd be much more comfortable with CDs. I don't really want to interact with someone.

Edit: After finding the right part of the website, I found it's only CDs/MP3s. I feel so dumb some times, haha! Thank you for mentioning her in this thread, MacKenzie. I'm going to look into this.

Edit #2: Or maybe not? Ugh. I found another source that says it involves one-on-one phone sessions. Do you think you could clarify this for me, please?

Maja.V:

I think your voice is great. I feel most of the people who hear you on the phone, for example, would just peg you as being female. Although, if someone knew about you being transgendered, and was therefore LOOKING for holes in your voice, they might find some here and there.

In other words, if you stopped now and went through life with that voice, I think you'd do well. If you feel you can improve upon it further and would like to do so, I think you should. I don't know technical terms very well so I can't provide you with that sort of information, but to give you my very primitive opinion: I think your voice is a little too muddled. It may help to make it crisper or cleaner, smaller; someone else above mentioned avoiding speaking from your chest. If you try to make your voice very small and try to keep the bulk of it in your mouth, I think it may help you. I hope this was helpful, and I think you're doing a great job - I wish you the best!

Thank you very much for your input, Sybil, I appreciate the comments. I've around 5 months before going out en femmé for the first time, so I'll definitely nail it down until then. I'll work on what you pointed out, speaking clearer and control the voice from slipping down to my chest.

Kathe Perez is an actual voice trainer, she has this course thing that runs for 120 days:

http://www.exceptionalvoice.com/120daychallenge.html

I'm not sure if it's worth the money, though, because 750$ is truly a lot.

Yeah, I really don't have that kind of spare money, either. I'd really like to just find something that explains the technical terms and aspects of voice a bit better. I think I can do the rest on my own.

If her 3 MP3s provide this, then I could manage the money for that. I'd like to know beforehand, though.

I ordered her MP3's but I don't know. They didn't help me out at all. I just took CandiFLA's suggestion to heart (reading out loud in the highest pitch you can manage to put out), and it worked for me. I just lowered the pitch of my voice and  it came out as you heard it.

First Candi's clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbaj4tIX1kw

I'd also suggest getting a voice recorder application for your smartphone (if you have one), or getting a cheap microphone and free recording software for your computer. Or even a tape recorder would work, and just try out different voices. Read out random stuff in every voice you can manage, and you're bound to find it eventually. The recording is key, though, because you hear yourself differently than it actually is.

I do have a microphone and recording software, that's the majority of what I used. I'm actually relatively happy with my voice, but I lose it some times. I just can't get my throat to cooperate for some spells, and it bothers me. The voice I have that I'm happy with passes marvelously on the phone and allows me to be completely natural (laughing, yelling, coughing, etc.)

I think the reason this happens is because I don't know enough about the finer points of voice.

As for CandiFLA, I know about her but I've never really followed her because I don't personally want to aim for the type of voice she has. I find it a bit stiff and unnatural.

Ah, alright. Seems like you've far more experience on it. :D

I don't know enough. x.x

Since you do have the MP3s, though, could you please tell me: do they really go in depth into the "fundamentals of voice" and how they relate to transwomen? For example, on this webpage: http://www.exceptionalvoice.com/voicefeminization.html

Especially where respiration, phonation, resonance, articulation, and prosody are mentioned. I'd like to know if these are covered in great detail and, again, related to how the voice of transwomen develops. I'm really sorry to bug you about this so much, but money is pretty tight for me too and I'd prefer not to spend blindly.

PM'd. :)

i did her course. i finished just before my FFS. it really helped out

I think you have a good start, Maja.V, but as you'd expect after only two weeks, it's not quite there yet. Personally, the trainers' tips and CandiFLA and all didn't help a whole lot; what did was singing. Singing, like, a lot. I truly improved when I started to try imitating singers that I felt sounded very female; their intonations; their little "voice breaks" that sound cute; etc. Hearing and imitating is just so helping. At some point, it "clicked", and I sort of understood more and more key points.

Quote from: Maja.V on April 04, 2012, 11:51:58 AM
http://www.exceptionalvoice.com/120daychallenge.html

I'm not sure if it's worth the money, though, because 750$ is truly a lot.

You can spend that on a blood test panel for HRT or barely touch the surface of electrolysis and your voice will get you clocked 100X faster than either of those will help.

Not being hostile but if you think spending $750 to get a serious head start on a passable voice isn't worth it, you likely will never make it to living full time. Being a woman is REALLY expensive. At least being an attractive one is.

I'm still blown away how people refuse to spend money on their voice when it is likely THE most important thing to your self confidence, which in turn = passing. You can look questionable, but if you open your mouth and sound 100% female, you pass.

Quote from: Stephe on April 25, 2012, 11:21:39 PM
You can spend that on a blood test panel for HRT or barely touch the surface of electrolysis and your voice will get you clocked 100X faster... etc.

Stephe, I know you've a whole advocacy for voice thing going on, but please point out the post where have I written that voice is not important?

I know and am aware of the fact that voice is important, and you could probably understand why if you bothered to read the whole thread, since I was asking for tips and advice on how to, and what to improve. In fact, I think that voice is one of the key aspects to transition.
But you're assuming from my quoted post, that I somehow think it's not important because I'm not willing to hand out $750 (which, again, is not a small amount by any means) for a course which may or may not help finding / improving one's voice. I didn't say the course wasn't worth the money, I said "I'm not sure", which is a big difference, I'd think. Given the lack of reviews, I think it's rational not to just plunge into it.

Because I'm not willing to spend $750 on an unproven / unreviewed course will make me unpassable and unwomanly? I would think that you must be joking.

Anyway, let's not derail this thread further.

Thank you for the comment, A. I actually sing to songs with female singers very often (pretty much daily - especially Adele <3) and I think I may have improved my voice slightly over the course of it. I also noticed that CandiFLA's suggestion (saying / reading stuff in Falsetto) doesn't really help me, or at least I didn't seem to notice any effect except for having a sore throat.

Quote from: Maja.V on April 26, 2012, 12:22:39 AM

Because I'm not willing to spend $750 on an unproven / unreviewed course will make me unpassable and unwomanly? I would think that you must be joking.

*sigh* It doesn't appear you looked through the voice therapy posts here before you posted this-Lack of reviews-. And "unproven?"

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,102416.msg762907.html#msg762907 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,102416.msg762907.html#msg762907)

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,116502.msg918414.html#msg918414 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,116502.msg918414.html#msg918414)

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,100261.msg742655.html#msg742655 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,100261.msg742655.html#msg742655)

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,87471.msg677038.html#msg677038 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,87471.msg677038.html#msg677038)

A google search will pull up more. I have yet to see one bad review of her services. There are countless u-tube video of people who used her and sound great.

No where did I say what's quoted above. I even said "not being hostile" and you jump down my throat twisting what I said.

But again $750 is a tiny drop in the bucket of what transition is going to cost. It seems silly to spend $10,000 on facial hair removal or $25K on FFS but skimp on something that is in reality much more important. I ended up spending 2X what you quoted on voice therapy and it was worth every penny. And I've spent more on laser hair removal than my voice therapy cost.

Plus you can seriously damage your voice doing this wrong. I hope that doesn't happen to you but it can.  Another problem I see with a lot of "self trained" MTF is the first few words don't sound bad but after a minute or two they slide back into a guy sounding voice. That's from using a technique that's too hard to maintain.

Quote from: Maja.V on April 26, 2012, 12:22:39 AM
I also noticed that CandiFLA's suggestion (saying / reading stuff in Falsetto) doesn't really help me, or at least I didn't seem to notice any effect except for having a sore throat.

http://www.voicemedicine.com/polyp.htm (http://www.voicemedicine.com/polyp.htm) is what you can end up with "practicing" wrong.

Quote from: StepheNo where did I say what's quoted above. I even said "not being hostile" and you jump down my throat twisting what I said.

I think Maja.V's strongly toned reply to you came from this:

Quote from: StepheYou can spend that on a blood test panel for HRT or barely touch the surface of electrolysis and your voice will get you clocked 100X faster than either of those will help.

Not being hostile but if you think spending $750 to get a serious head start on a passable voice isn't worth it, you likely will never make it to living full time. Being a woman is REALLY expensive. At least being an attractive one is.

I'm still blown away how people refuse to spend money on their voice when it is likely THE most important thing to your self confidence, which in turn = passing. You can look questionable, but if you open your mouth and sound 100% female, you pass.

I personally saw your reply as a bit hostile/aggressive, despite your claim that it was otherwise. While I don't think that, on any level, your reply was meant to be overbearing - in fact, I clearly only get the notion that you're trying to be helpful to her - you did offer advice she didn't really ask for, brought her motives into question, and pre-emptively condescended to her possible feelings (what I highlighted in bold). Her thread was about improving her voice and not as much about her decision making skills. Even if some of her decisions will indirectly influence her voice's quality, those decisions themselves are not the techniques or voice work she's interested in.

I genuinely don't think for a second that you were trying to be anything but helpful, but this is why I think she replied to you the way that she did. I've run into this situation on the forums a few times as well, and it can be very discouraging when trying to express myself. Some times I just want people to talk to me about what I shared, and not try to change my mind on other things that they gather from my questions or experiences. I think Maja.V might be feeling something similar.

Quote from: Sybil on April 26, 2012, 06:14:05 AM
I personally saw your reply as a bit hostile/aggressive, despite your claim that it was otherwise. While I don't think that, on any level, your reply was meant to be overbearing - in fact, I clearly only get the notion that you're trying to be helpful to her - you did offer advice she didn't really ask for, brought her motives into question, and pre-emptively condescended to her possible feelings (what I highlighted in bold). Her thread was about improving her voice and not as much about her decision making skills. Even if some of her decisions will indirectly influence her voice's quality, those decisions themselves are not the techniques or voice work she's interested in.

I genuinely don't think for a second that you were trying to be anything but helpful, but this is why I think she replied to you the way that she did. I've run into this situation on the forums a few times as well, and it can be very discouraging when trying to express myself. Some times I just want people to talk to me about what I shared, and not try to change my mind on other things that they gather from my questions or experiences. I think Maja.V might be feeling something similar.

Thank you Sybil, I'm just going to quote your post because that's exactly why I  made such a reply. I think nothing more needs to be said, truthfully.

Quote from: Sybil on April 26, 2012, 06:14:05 AM
Even if some of her decisions will indirectly influence her voice's quality, those decisions themselves are not the techniques or voice work she's interested in.

Sorry for being brutally honest.

And if my tone in an internet post upsets someone, then good luck transitioning. I am not going to apologize for what I said. She discredits a long time professional who has helped likely thousands of trans people. Then turn around and attacks someone who has been there and seen how much a good voice can make life so much easier. Most of transition is self confidence, a good voice will give you that in spades.

If spending money is stopping someone from doing this right, vs watching free u tube (with some bad advice) and possibly damaging their voice permanently, I'm really not sure if they can successfully deal with transition as unfortunately some steps in this can't be avoided and are expensive. I've wasted more money on makeup that didn't work than her 30 day program costs. + Kathe (and others) have less expensive options to try. 

  IMHO self teaching voice is really no different than self medicating HRT. Sure people have done it and most won't damage their bodies but many times the results are sub optimal and some people do injure themselves. I can understand it if you really have no income to cover it, but again IMHO I've seen way too many MTF who clearly have spent a ton of money and time on their appearance ignore or at last short cut their voice.

Stephe, I really must say that you are taking all of this the wrong way. I'm sure no one else saw that Maja.V was "discrediting" anyone, or did anything wrong to begin with.

About voice therapy... She did mention that it's only been two weeks (at the creation of the topic) since she started seriously training. I don't think it's appropriate to jump into costy therapy that is not necessarily needed so soon. Voice is one of the few things it's possible, at least for part of us, to do alone. I think it's only fair to at least let her try on her own for now, especially since her voice doesn't sound hopeless at all.

Maja.V: Actually, despite how great she sounds, I don't think Adele is a very good choice for practice. Neither is Shakira (depending on the song, actually; she can be quite soft). They have "strong" voices. You know what I mean? A "strong" voice is very - what am I saying? - extremely - hard to achieve with a female impression. Also, if you have trouble reaching the range, if you try to do it in a "strong" voice, you might damage your voice, at least temporarily. And finally, a "strong" voice is generally regarded as a masculine characteristic. Mixing it with feminine attributes for a beautiful result is a wonderful feat that some singers manage, but for most, in one's everyday life, it's probably not a very good idea.

I would rather suggest Japanese singers with cute voices, (specifically, for example, Ikimono-gatari, supercell, Tsuji Shion, miwa, Yui Horie and 7!! [super high difficulty level, and it's a group, of singers... o.o but I love them], with their cute voice breakings.)

It can seem hard to imitate at first, but once you notice little patterns and try it, you'll see improvement... At least, if it happens like it did with me.

If you're not so much of an otaku, an English-speaking artist I would suggest is Avril Lavigne. There's also Mia Martina, but I'm not SUCH a fan, and to be honest, it's just way too high.

If you wanna try some exotic French, Marie-Mai is certainly a good choice, and not just because I like her music.

Once you start to grasp those "little female-sounding elements", you can try feminizing male songs. It's fun, good practice and sometimes, the results are impressive!

And if you think you've become a master, you can test yourself. Try making Mika's (male singer famous for his impressive falsetto) high songs such as Grace Kelly sound female at the same height. If it works well, thumbs up!

If you'd like, I can (very legally -whistles-) provide you with a few songs from my library. You can PM me for my email address, so we can discuss it on MSN (-glowing eyes- demonic scheme to have someone to chat with in motion). ^^

Quote from: A on April 26, 2012, 01:26:53 PM
Once you start to grasp those "little female-sounding elements", you can try feminizing male songs. It's fun, good practice and sometimes, the results are impressive!

Oh yeah feminizing male songs is the kind of singing I do half the time! (The other half is split between low female songs and moderately high female songs)
It's easier too because you don't have to worry about the range at the same time.

Quote from: A on April 26, 2012, 01:26:53 PM
I would rather suggest Japanese singers with cute voices, (specifically, for example, Ikimono-gatari, supercell, Tsuji Shion, miwa, Yui Horie and 7!! [super high difficulty level, and it's a group, of singers... o.o but I love them], with their cute voice breakings.)

Going a bit off-topic! But I notice something that many kawaiikei singers do: they uplift the end of many lines to a squeak. THAT is really hard to imitate! Because basically you need a flexible range that's half an octave above the actual pitch of the note to lift it up like that. I was practising this song: http://nicoviewer.net/sm15992060 and I had to kick the song down three semitones to be able to do the uplifting (e.g. at 0:17). The opposite phenomenon also occurs (dropping from a high pitch to a note), e.g. on the syllable "ko" at 0:21...

Anyway, I think that's the sort of little patterns that A is talking about. But they vary widely in imitability :)

Quote from: A on April 26, 2012, 01:26:53 PM
Stephe, I really must say that you are taking all of this the wrong way. I'm sure no one else saw that Maja.V was "discrediting" anyone, or did anything wrong to begin with.

About voice therapy... She did mention that it's only been two weeks (at the creation of the topic) since she started seriously training. I don't think it's appropriate to jump into costy therapy that is not necessarily needed so soon. Voice is one of the few things it's possible, at least for part of us, to do alone. I think it's only fair to at least let her try on her own for now, especially since her voice doesn't sound hopeless at all.

The problem ends up being, if you start training wrong it can sound "promising" at first. But given they probably aren't making these sound correctly, they likely learn to speak in a way that only sound reasonable if they speak fairly softly (and then no one can understand them) or never end up much beyond "promising". That was where I ended up. There was no way with my first attempted female voice, that I worked on for years, that I could address a room full of people and not sound male.

I'm trying to help her not make the same mistake I did, thinking I could do this without anyone's help. I lived full time for several years with this first voice and I spent a lot of time avoiding speaking etc. Finally getting my voice sorted made a huge difference, I could go back to being the talkative, extrovert I have always been. Instead of being shy, talking in a low soft voice trying to sound as female as I could. Now I can walk outside, call for my dogs and not worry that I sound like a guy calling his dog.

Starting out is where people need guidance, someone who understands the mechanics to say "no not like that, like this...." They can listen to where you are and give specific exercises that fix the problems they hear. It's like trying to learn a golf swing on your own. Once you learn to do it wrong, undoing what you are doing wrong is much harder. It's the same muscle memory thing. Later practice to refine is fine to do on your own. Even listening to you recorded voice can be deceiving. I sound totally different on my cell phone recorded, on my digital voice recorder and 2 different microphones I have for my computer. I have no clue which recording device sounds most like the "real" me.  Speakers also will make a voice sound very different. The resonance/overtone thing is where most of the problem is.

I was shocked at all the things I was doing wrong as well, like simply breathing wrong. I did a lot of breathing exercises to start with. Learning how to warm up my voice for the day etc. The exercises I did seemed VERY silly at the time but they worked. I still am working on my voice doing these things I KNOW work and helped.

All of this is probably why many MTF have just an OK voice at best. Speech is very complicated and for many people we have years of doing it wrong (male voice). To start doing a new voice wrong will just make it even harder to learn how to correctly sound female. And again it's really hard if you have to use a strained voice to speak for more than a sentence or two (or with any volume) and still sound OK.

And one last comment, you say "jump into costly therapy ". Given the overall cost most people spend on transition, even private lessons for a few months once a week will end up being 5% or less of your transition cost. Given how important this is, I don't see this as a good place to skimp. I rank this above my FFS as far as making me comfortable living as a woman.

Quote from: Maja.V on April 03, 2012, 05:58:04 AM
Hellow everyone,

I've been sort of fiddling with my voice lately, trying to find a range that would be passable. I'd appreciate it if you could leave a critique of it, what I should improve on, etc.

I know it's short - I just had no idea what to say, really. Keep in mind I've just started practicing it (like two weeks ago), so I have yet to fully develop it. I'd just like to know if I'm going in the right direction, because I truly can't tell.

I've also spoken in my male voice for comparison, so don't be alarmed. ;D

http://youtu.be/YI6d6DJbHyg

Thank you!

P.S. Sorry for the dumb accent.

Hi Maja!

I think you sound great!

Honestly, there's absolutely nothing to criticize.  It works!  You don't need to change anything.  Have you tried the "phone test?"  I would be really surprised if you got mis-gendered.


Being new here... I suppose I shouldn't be contrary, but...

When you learn your voice (or anything else involved in "passing"), it helps to just think about it holistically.  Things like the exact technique you're using -- and especially pitch -- really aren't important.  It's just the overall feeling -- does it work or not?

Once it starts working, it's just a matter of getting yourself used to it.  I couldn't, for example, start speaking from a "dead stop" without sorta going into a male voice, then kinda warming up, and then hopping up to the female voice.  Now, it's instant;  in fact, I'm not even sure where the dividing line is anymore.


There's a difference between having a "passable" voice, and a pretty voice.  But the journey from one to the other is no different than any other woman would take (via singing lessons or something).  If you get to that "passable" point, you should give yourself a very large pat on the back.  Pretty can wait.   (though...  I'm really thinking about myself there -- your voice is actually very pretty.  mine's squeaky.  :-D )


You're on the right track! :-)


-anna

apple pie: More specifically, there's this "effect" I found particularly useful:

http://www.aimini.net/view/?fid=yzS8u0ZQ3VpcTgDZJoCr
It's present all over the song, but an example is at ~0:22 on "kurai".

It can also be heard in this song, on most descending notes.
http://www.aimini.net/view/?fid=E3pOHVAdd4qBLrOCv4iD

And here.
http://www.aimini.net/view/?fid=FBlW5vMTCaXHORqkVayP

This little "vibration". Anyway~.

Stephe: I would rater think that having a head start on voice would actually help in therapy... I might be wrong, but unless someone was highly delusional, I don't think it's likely that they would mess up their voice so.

Thank you, Anna! I appreciate the comment!

When I speak in my female voice, I don't struggle one bit - even read about 30 pages of a book out loud while recording myself and my vocal chords weren't strained at all. It comes almost naturally, I just raise my pitch a little and make it a bit more breathy. I can easily speak loudly and retain the voice. It's true, though, that if I go any higher than that I sound really fake and forced.

Awesome!  :-)  Now you just gotta try it out on people (if you're not already doing that).

I was very tickled when I started passing on the phone.  Got me into some amusingly awkward situations, which were very validating (i.e. "Umm... is this your husband on the insurance plan?"  "no, I just haven't my name yet" "So, you're recently divorced from your husband?"  "NO... it's ME"  "<silence>....ok.  when you change your name, please let us know if we should also change your gender in our records"  lol :-D )

though -- believe it or not -- that starts to become *really* annoying after a while...


You're definitely good to go.  I'm always tweaking my voice as I go along, but honestly, I'm probably the only one who notices.


You should teach the rest of us *your* technique! :-)


-anna

I'm still not living in girl mode, so I haven't started using it at all, and if I get some random call, I always forget to use the voice. I'm like "Derp! Forgot again!", so I'm definitely writing down a note next to the phone or something. :D

It sure sounds a lot of fun, though, confusing telemarketers. ;D

As far as my technique goes, uhm. I just recorded myself talking in different pitches, adding random breathiness to it and just going up and down until I found something I could work with, really. No magic, air-holding or nose-talking. ;D

I think you should start using your female voice in day-to-day situations. Of course, it may seem odd to people you've known for a while, but then again, at 8 months HRT, I'd think that they noticed weirder things than that already. If you're out to them, they will assume it's a normal effect of hormones. If you're not, if you go gradually, it will probably be all right.

I personally don't think I could have gotten a voice like mine - which I now, thanks to you, know is actually good! :3 - if I hadn't been using it 24/7. And I'm still socially male, too. It's brought me some awkwardness, but I survive. Of course, I haven't had to "switch", since I've been trying to speak as female as possible nearly forever, but I'm sure you can manage the jump.

Quote from: Maja.V on April 27, 2012, 01:07:40 PM
It sure sounds a lot of fun, though, confusing telemarketers. ;D

You mean "voice judgement volunteers" ;D

Quote from: Maja.V on April 27, 2012, 01:07:40 PM
I'm still not living in girl mode, so I haven't started using it at all, and if I get some random call, I always forget to use the voice. I'm like "Derp! Forgot again!", so I'm definitely writing down a note next to the phone or something. :D

I had an embarrassing experience answering the phone.  It rang while I was taking a nap, and I was still groggy when I answered.  I didn't have time to get into the girl voice. 

I answered in the guy voice.  But, the caller asked for "Anna."  I said, "errr... ummm.... just a minute!" took the phone away from my mouth for a couple seconds, and then came back on as Anna!   :D

That must've been *so* obvious... how embarrassing!   :o





-anna

Quote from: A on April 27, 2012, 08:08:32 PM
I think you should start using your female voice in day-to-day situations. Of course, it may seem odd to people you've known for a while, but then again, at 8 months HRT, I'd think that they noticed weirder things than that already. If you're out to them, they will assume it's a normal effect of hormones. If you're not, if you go gradually, it will probably be all right.

I personally don't think I could have gotten a voice like mine - which I now, thanks to you, know is actually good! :3 - if I hadn't been using it 24/7. And I'm still socially male, too. It's brought me some awkwardness, but I survive. Of course, I haven't had to "switch", since I've been trying to speak as female as possible nearly forever, but I'm sure you can manage the jump.

I'm pretty much out to everyone but my father. He's really close minded and bigoted. He's the reason I'm still in guy mode. I'm employed part-time at his company, and given that I need monies for FFS, I can't afford to be fired. But truthfully, I don't mind taking it slow, at least it gives hormones time to work that magic.

As far as using my voice in public, well. I'm going to try but I'm rather shy when it comes to such things ;D Or I get really nervous.

apple pie: Theehee ;D
PositivelyAnna: That sounds like a really funny situation ;D

Well, be a coward and say it's normal for hormones to start affecting your voice after a while! :p

Excuses are useful.

Quote from: Stephe on April 26, 2012, 10:34:12 PMI'm trying to help her not make the same mistake I did, thinking I could do this without anyone's help. I lived full time for several years with this first voice and I spent a lot of time avoiding speaking etc. Finally getting my voice sorted made a huge difference, I could go back to being the talkative, extrovert I have always been. Instead of being shy, talking in a low soft voice trying to sound as female as I could. Now I can walk outside, call for my dogs and not worry that I sound like a guy calling his dog.

Starting out is where people need guidance, someone who understands the mechanics to say "no not like that, like this...." They can listen to where you are and give specific exercises that fix the problems they hear.

I think I might really understand the entirety of your post, although I am still on the starter's end of what you described. I often feel as though I am doing something wrong, or putting too much strain on my voice and that it might become damaged later. I worry that I will be stuck with an improper method years down the road. Going through the program that has been mentioned here is very appealing to me. I think that it would do wonders for my stress levels and give me confidence to pursue things even more aggressively than I already am; I, for one, certainly do not question its authenticity.

However, on the other hand, the idea of going through it is frustrating to me. I already feel colossal financial pressure for transition, and it seems as though more keeps on adding itself to the pile, and its shadow - ever greater - continues to consume me. Since giving up is not an option for me, this is extremely stressful and I try to be as reasonable and practical about all of my foreseen expenses as I can be.

My mind tries to argue that working on my voice has no related material expense - as surgery would - and that, optimally, I could figure it out without coaching and therefore without damaging my financial timeline. I realize that this is merely ideal, but it is a very difficult thought process to pull away from, none-the-less. I am also forced to realize that someone out there has the answer to my problem, but is not sharing it unless I pay a very pretty penny. There are dozens of written and visual tutorials out there on the wrong or the mediocre way to train your voice, but I simply cannot find anything on the right way. Does it simply not exist? Are people so unwilling to share the right way to do something for a very genuine problem?

In all honesty, it makes me feel so frustrated. I feel torn between sacrificing some of my finances and doing it for myself, or continuing to try and figure out a way to do it on my own because I think it is wrong not to share that information with the thousands of other women going through this. I understand coaching may be an integral part of it for many, but some of us would at the very least appreciate detailed explanations of the methods so that we could try it on our own. I would be more willing to go through the expensive coaching if I at least had tried and failed at the methods used in that coaching, and needed another's guidance - which is, in reality, what coaching is supposed to be for.

Maybe the methods really are out there, and I am simply awful at finding them. If anyone knows the answer to that, please do share with me; I would be incredibly grateful.

Note: I am not berating anyone who has gone through with the coaching and does not actively share the methods involved. I have actually seen several bits and pieces shared here and there, which I and I am sure others are always grateful for, but it is really very difficult to put the entire process together without something thorough.

I *really* don't mean this to be dismissive, but... you are worrying *way* too much.  (When I hear someone say that I think, "Umm... WTF do you know about me?  I can't just switch off my worry!")

It's meant to be constructive:  Transition is a very unpredictable process.  Really, you have to be a bit zen about it -- it's not going to go as you planned, and you just have to roll with it.

But, this is actually a good thing!  That makes it kinda fun.  It's an adventure filled with surprises.

What worked for me is to *only* plan one step ahead.  Take a little baby step... see how it feels... if it's good, take another.  If not, step back, take a breath, and re-think what comes next (and if it *really* feels bad, maybe transition isn't the right thing?  Even that's ok -- you've ruled out one possibility, and can look for something else).


To answer your other question:  The best tutorial out there is the CandiFLA series on YouTube. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbaj4tIX1kw
(that's not the first lesson -- you'll have to poke around in her series a little)

She's awesome!  A great teacher, and what a personality!  Very entertaining.

:-)


-anna

Hello Sybil,

I can really feel your frustration in your words...
I understand what you mean when you say that it feels like it should be possible to acquire a good voice without extra expense.

But while I have little idea what paid voice lessons would get you, I imagine that their method would require the trainer to spend many hours with you, asking you to try something, and then correcting what you may be doing wrong.
That is, they give customized feedback based on your performance.
If I am right, then this customized feedback cannot really be "shared", because it is all generated from what the trainer observes in your voice.
I think therefore that they are not deliberately withholding information that would allow others to acquire a good voice in order to extract money; it simply REQUIRES this real-time interaction to work. And they do deserve to be paid for those many hours.

There is a more encouraging corollary to the above, though.
If you are able to self-correct what you are doing wrong after recording yourself and listening to the recording, then you would do very well in developing your voice.
If you are able to do this, then you don't have to spend any money at all.
In fact, I believe that is how many others have managed to develop their new voices themselves.
Not based on tutorials or advice, but by listening carefully to their own voices, and improving on the bits that do not sound desirable.
This can be very difficult for some people, and as Stephe has warned, if you do it wrong, you may damage your voice.

You mention that you do already record your voice, but instead of just recording it and then playing it back quickly only to have a rough idea of "that sounded good" / "that didn't sound very good", try the following when you make your recordings, in order to apply the type of self-correction I mentioned:

• Get a really good microphone
• Record a small sample of your voice ("recording 1"), short enough so that you can do the next step easily
• Listen AS CAREFULLY AS YOU CAN to your own voice, be VERY PEDANTIC about what sounds wrong
  (that's why you need a really good microphone, so you can hear your voice very clearly)
• Re-record your voice ("recording 2"), saying exactly the same words as the original, using slightly different muscles in your throat to change the quality of your voice a little
  (you may want to experiment with techniques you may have read about elsewhere)
• Listen, again as carefully as you can, to this second recording, and see if whatever sounds wrong in the first recording has improved
• If there is an improvement (or if the technique you just attempted gave you an improvement), try to base your next recording on this improved recording 2.
  If not, base your next recording on the original recording 1
• Repeat from step 4

What this does is to iteratively improve your voice by a very little bit each time you manage an improvement, so that in the long run, you will have a much better voice.
Save and keep all your recordings in order to track your own progress. I have hundreds of recordings of my own voice on my computer, named by date.
(Even now, I still record my voice regularly to ensure the quality of my voice.)

There is one problem with this method: You will often forget what muscles you used to get a particularly nice-sounding short recording you previously made.
So a second recording made a week after the first may actually sound worse. However, in the long run (on the scale of many months), it will get better.
On the other hand, I feel that an advantage with this method is that you can always keep improving it, even when your voice already sounds pretty good, because it does not correct specific, well-known errors people have written about, but your own ones. Another advantage is that it will nudge you towards a voice that YOU like, because you are picking out all the bits that you yourself like and discarding the bits you don't like. So if you don't like a candiFLA voice then you wouldn't end up with one!

To minimize the risk of damaging your voice, ALWAYS, ALWAYS immediately stop any voice practice when your throat starts to hurt, even if it hurts only a little. Stop using your voice completely for at least a few minutes and let it rest. DO NOT RUSH with voice training. Many school teachers completely ruined their voice by using it even when it hurts, and it takes them months or even years to recover from it.

There is no guarantee that the above will work for you, because some methods work better for some people and simply do not work for others. For example, I think that the above will work well for someone who has very keen hearing and able to discern very small differences in sounds, but not so well for someone who tends to think many similar sounds are just "the same". But the above is already my full attempt in suggesting what I believe might help you in improving your voice...

There is also a second corollary: instead of trying to correct your own voice yourself, you could ask someone to do it for you.
But it will be far less effective, because the other person will very likely not pick out all the wrong things they hear. They may not hear them at all, and even if they hear them, they are highly likely to not mention every single detail in order not to offend you.
So I don't really recommend it unless this other person is very good at doing this... which goes back to why the voice lessons may well be worth the money...

I'd like to preface that I really do not want to hijack Maja.V's thread, so I hope to reply as concisely as I can:

PositivelyAnna,

Thank you for sharing your advice with me. You are right about the worry - I know some times I do it too much, but I also cannot just turn it off. I try to balance it as well as I can, but when something is more important to you than anything else, times get hard every now and then.

I may have said this already in the thread, but I am not a big fan of CandiFLA's videos. She sounds a bit stiff and unnatural to me, and that is not what I am going for. Her style of teaching has been my favorite so far, though. My above post may have been misleading: I have been working at my voice for about two years now, and have spent anywhere from weeks to months on different techniques before I decided they were unhealthy or felt like they would not work for me. I can make my voice sound great, but there is always something wrong with it to me. I think it is in the methods I am using.


apple pie,

I understand that trainers give you personalized advice, and I absolutely agree that they should be paid for that. My frustration lies in the fact that there are many generalized techniques (such as speaking towards the front of your face) that seem to work near-universally, but have not been collected anywhere. I think I may be unaware of some of these, and simply wish I knew more of them so that I could put them to trial. As you began to describe above, I think I have adapted a really great intuition for what works for me; I do not think I am superhuman, though, so I cannot possibly guess or know all of the methods people out there use.

Your advice about the microphone is wonderful. It is exactly what I do when I spend time working on my voice; I have a ton of MP3s. It is also this process that has led me to want to refine my voice so deeply.

Hello Sybil!

While I cannot be sure, I have a general feeling that all of the techniques out there are geared towards people who need to get their voice from not passing to passing. I think (from what you say) that you probably have a great voice already that passes with no problems at all, but that there's something that stills feels different from a usual female voice.

I think it might be related to one thing that I forgot to mention... there may be the issue of those muscles needing to gain strength.

When I trained my own voice, I settled on a particular one very quickly. It sounded okay and my voice felt perfectly comfortable (no straining or hurting muscles or anything), but my voice was still not right in various ways:
For example, it had some sort of minimum volume, below which no sound would come out.
And it generally sounded very slightly like sandpaper (there's some sort of "background noise" to my voice).
As well, the voice got tired if I used it continuously. I remember back then, at the beginning of my transition (before full-time), I was chatting with a friend in a restaurant in my girl voice. After 2 or 3 hours, it struggled to stay in a girl-like voice, both in terms of quality and pitch.

But without deliberately trying to improve on any of the three flaws above, without changing my technique, the problems all disappeared by themselves over a few months of frequent usage.
I could speak extremely softly now; there is no sandpaper-like feel to my voice any more; and I could talk as long as I want for endless hours.
So I think it is possible that the improvement you are looking for may come from frequent use, which really builds up your muscles.
I know you said you've been practising for 2 years, but I'm not sure if you actually regularly used it for 2 years or just occasionally trained it...
What I did before I went full-time was that I found Internet buddies to chat with me on voice. That gave me immense time to actually use it in conversational routines, frequently, every day, before I lived as a girl. I think that really helped me. :)

Hi again apple pie,

I had a highly passable voice for a while, but it was difficult to maintain and put a lot of strain on me. I actually lost it for a bit at one point, which made it feel unreliable. As hard as it was to give it up, I did, because I realized it wasn't really a healthy option for my vocal chords and the like. I'm trying to find new options now, and I'm making progress on yet another voice that, while requiring effort and practice, doesn't put unreal amounts of strain on me.

The whole two years thing is as it is because I keep going through voices like this. After I stick to one thing for a while, I find something about it that just feels fundamentally flawed. I try to give them all a chance, though, because I realize a lot of it is muscle development and endurance. I guess part of my previous posts were a bit about that, and wishing that people who have worked with Kathe Perez would share what it is they have done for their own voice. The results I've seen from most of the people who have subscribed to her are astounding, and what's more (as per Stephe's example) things like yelling are available, too.

Here's an example, which I mentioned before, of the sort of stuff I'm talking about: speaking from the front of your face; I know that when I first started, I concentrated all of my effort in my throat (I bet this sounds familiar to a LOT of you), and speaking from the front of my face was something I just decided to try as intuition and experimentation lead me there -- but it felt that I found it completely by chance. Since then, it's become such an integrated part of any new voice I develop or work on because it just works so well, can be improved on, and really doesn't take a lot of effort. What else am I missing like this, though? Until I really adopt a voice I'm both happy with and comfortable using, I'll never feel confident that I know what I need to use or develop.

To risk sounding like a broken record, it would be really nice to know what methods these women are using, even if they aren't going to work for everyone. They'd be something that other people could try - at least they'd know some generally successful things to put their minds to, as opposed to going at it blindly (or unsafely, which is my primary concern) and wondering in the dark what roads they might be taken down. Stephe was right in all she said about voice affecting your quality of life, it really is such a huge deal and I know that firsthand. It's also not a completely safe venture to take on your own. My only gripe is that I think more women could achieve their voice on their own time and merit if they just knew what fundamental methods to tackle and how to be safe. I don't think the whole $750 would be necessary for a lot of people at that point -- and let's face it, most trans women could really use any penny they can save. I know I could.

Quote from: Sybil on April 30, 2012, 06:57:44 AM
Hi again apple pie,

I had a highly passable voice for a while, but it was difficult to maintain and put a lot of strain on me. I actually lost it for a bit at one point, which made it feel unreliable. As hard as it was to give it up, I did, because I realized it wasn't really a healthy option for my vocal chords and the like. I'm trying to find new options now, and I'm making progress on yet another voice that, while requiring effort and practice, doesn't put unreal amounts of strain on me.

The whole two years thing is as it is because I keep going through voices like this. After I stick to one thing for a while, I find something about it that just feels fundamentally flawed. I try to give them all a chance, though, because I realize a lot of it is muscle development and endurance. I guess part of my previous posts were a bit about that, and wishing that people who have worked with Kathe Perez would share what it is they have done for their own voice. The results I've seen from most of the people who have subscribed to her are astounding, and what's more (as per Stephe's example) things like yelling are available, too.

Here's an example, which I mentioned before, of the sort of stuff I'm talking about: speaking from the front of your face; I know that when I first started, I concentrated all of my effort in my throat (I bet this sounds familiar to a LOT of you), and speaking from the front of my face was something I just decided to try as intuition and experimentation lead me there -- but it felt that I found it completely by chance. Since then, it's become such an integrated part of any new voice I develop or work on because it just works so well, can be improved on, and really doesn't take a lot of effort. What else am I missing like this, though? Until I really adopt a voice I'm both happy with and comfortable using, I'll never feel confident that I know what I need to use or develop.

To risk sounding like a broken record, it would be really nice to know what methods these women are using, even if they aren't going to work for everyone. They'd be something that other people could try - at least they'd know some generally successful things to put their minds to, as opposed to going at it blindly (or unsafely, which is my primary concern) and wondering in the dark what roads they might be taken down. Stephe was right in all she said about voice affecting your quality of life, it really is such a huge deal and I know that firsthand. It's also not a completely safe venture to take on your own. My only gripe is that I think more women could achieve their voice on their own time and merit if they just knew what fundamental methods to tackle and how to be safe. I don't think the whole $750 would be necessary for a lot of people at that point -- and let's face it, most trans women could really use any penny they can save. I know I could.

Hello again

Hmmm... I think I am getting the feeling that you want a Kathe Perez-trained voice very specifically...
It seems that you believe that's the best voice, and others are all somehow flawed.

Would it be correct if I sum up what you want to say as the following?
"Could anyone who was trained by Kathe Perez tell me for free how she trained you? Because I shouldn't have to pay for it"

I am afraid I cannot help you then, since I didn't "buy" my voice, and so it must be inferior.
It's my fault to have misunderstood what you really wanted and spent so much time typing something that you didn't really want...

I don't think that's what she meant, though. And I, at least, found your post helpful.☆

apple pie,

That is absolutely not what I meant and there is really no indication of that anywhere. I thanked you for what you shared and admitted using a good portion of it, finding it, as I might recall I said, "wonderful." I really did show my appreciation for you, and continued to discuss my feelings with you as you replied to them. Should I not be the one who is offended that you attacked me because my feelings did not fit to your scope, and the level of gratitude or appreciation I had showed you did not meet your quota for me? However, I am not, but I am sad that you felt the need to chastise me when I felt we were otherwise getting along, on a topic that was no less quite a bit about me and not about you.

Quote"Could anyone who was trained by Kathe Perez tell me for free how she trained you? Because I shouldn't have to pay for it"

What was the purpose of attacking me like this? Not only did I lay my feelings out for you politely, I laid them out bare. I made it quite clear that I think -information- should be more readily available, but that I still easily and wholly understand that personalized coaching and instruction should not be. To risk a metaphor to describe my feelings: I think that voice methodology is often treated like a recipe or trade secret, and that I think that is just plain WRONG. It's something that's a quality of life issue for thousands of people. Nowhere did I, as you suggested, imply that someone should babysit me and tell me how to perfect that recipe. That is a chef's job. I simply want knowledge of the ingredients, and I implied nothing to the contrary. The primary difference here is that we're talking about a minority's livelihood, and not food.

QuoteI am afraid I cannot help you then, since I didn't "buy" my voice, and so it must be inferior.
It's my fault to have misunderstood what you really wanted and spent so much time typing something that you didn't really want...

These are unfair assertions for many of the same reasons I explained above. I like the work I've seen Kathe Perez perform, and she has had by far the highest consistency that I have encountered. Is it not human, even logical, practical to want to pursue something that is shown to be fundamentally sound? The only voicework I've admitted here that I -feel- I -personally- do not like is CandiFLA's, and I described my reasoning for that.

Again, I simply don't understand why you would turn tooth and claw on me like this. I was very genuine and honest with you, and as I again explained, said nothing to indicate I wanted to take advantage of anything or anyone. At worst, I implied I wanted healthier roads for the community at large and used myself as an example as to why I would want them.

Hi there

Firstly, I don't quite understand fully why you feel what I said was an attack on you... I did not intend that at all.
But it doesn't matter whether I understand why or not, or whether I intended it or not...
Since you do feel offended and attacked, I have done something bad and I should apologize to you.
So, I sincerely apologize for making you feel offended, and for making you feel that I have attacked you.

Secondly, it seems that I must have misunderstood what you meant then, though I don't see where yet. Maybe you might be able to help me understand it better. I must say, though, I did not say that you wanted someone to babysit you. That isn't what I meant by "tell"; passing information, like you just mentioned, is exactly what I meant.

Now maybe you can help me understand: you have mentioned the word "share" many times in your previous posts. For example,

• you said that you hoped "people who have worked with Kathe Perez would share what it is they have done for their own voice";
• you said that you think "it is wrong not to share that information";
• you asked if people are "so unwilling to share the right way to do something for a very genuine problem",

and in a few other places as well... and thus, I surmised that you wanted this information for free / without paying.

So since "for free" was the idea I had, in the summary in my previous post,

• "Could anyone who was trained by Kathe Perez tell me for free how she trained you?" is a re-wording of (1) above, and
• "I shouldn't have to pay for it" is implied by (2).

So they were meant as a summary of what I felt you were saying, and were not meant as an attack on you. But maybe you could explain to me where my understanding is wrong?

apple pie,

The context you used to reply implies that you take issue with my feelings and were offended, thus propelling you to exaggerate my stance on the matter. I felt I already explained why I felt this way, but I will continue to elaborate. If it wasn't intended as an attack by you, that's fine, but it very sincerely came across as one.

Now here is some additional reasoning I felt (and somewhat continue to feel, despite your sincere context) you have attacked me, or at the very least "put words in my mouth:"

QuoteNow maybe you can help me understand: you have mentioned the word "share" many times in your previous posts. For example,

• you said that you hoped "people who have worked with Kathe Perez would share what it is they have done for their own voice";
• you said that you think "it is wrong not to share that information";
• you asked if people are "so unwilling to share the right way to do something for a very genuine problem",

and in a few other places as well... and thus, I surmised that you wanted this information for free / without paying.

So since "for free" was the idea I had, in the summary in my previous post,

• "Could anyone who was trained by Kathe Perez tell me for free how she trained you?" is a re-wording of (1) above, and
• "I shouldn't have to pay for it" is implied by (2).

So they were meant as a summary of what I felt you were saying, and were not meant as an attack on you. But maybe you could explain to me where my understanding is wrong?

I underlined and bolded where your take on what I said becomes an incorrect assertion of my feelings, and I will also explain how you used (or at least seemed to use) context to attack me and misconstrue both my intent and my position.

Throughout what I have shared, I have only ever indicated that I wanted the information pertaining to voice augmentation to be readily available. I specifically cited that I did not want anyone to be coached for free, which is what Kathe Perez is really or justifiably selling. The absence of a sale is what makes something free. The fact of the matter is, there is no way that the knowledge of what parts of your mouth and throat are used to engineer a fully functioning female voice is exclusive to Kathe Perez. To assume that this is true would be facetious on many levels. If the knowledge WERE exclusive to her (or anyone else) and it was being hoarded as a secret, that, in addition to the belief that it would be okay, is what I said would be wrong.  However, it is clear that she does know, and she is a if not the only famous example. Thus, I used the idea of her knowledge - which is not exclusive to her - but not her practice - which is exclusive to her - for the discussion.

By the use of your word "how," you indicate both knowledge and practice. Asking for the practice for free makes me seem like a selfish and unreasonable person. When I made continuous efforts to indicate that was not my intent, and I am still irregardless accused of it, that makes me feel attacked.

I will again quote your original post and break it down further for you:

Quote from: apple pie on April 30, 2012, 02:04:37 PM
Hello again

Hmmm... I think I am getting the feeling that you want a Kathe Perez-trained voice very specifically...

I never said I wanted hers specifically. In fact, I said I'd like to know if the knowledge she purports to entertain - again, but not her coaching - is available elsewhere. Focus on knowledge.

QuoteIt seems that you believe that's the best voice, and others are all somehow flawed.

I never said that I felt any voice but CandiFLA's was not for me. I also never said that the "Kathe Perez" voice was the best. At worst, I implied I am happy with hers for me. You are applying universal thought to my individual one. In the individual context, there is nothing wrong with it. In the universal context, it could be seen as offensive. Accusing me of that when I was not doing so could be seen as an attack on me.

I talked about how the "Kathe Perez" voice methods were safe, and I'd like to see that available for the community. As I said earlier in this post, the knowledge is not exclusive to her, but it is proven. At no point, and certainly by no logical assertion, does this indicate that "all" other voices (methods) are flawed.

QuoteWould it be correct if I sum up what you want to say as the following?
"Could anyone who was trained by Kathe Perez tell me for free how she trained you? Because I shouldn't have to pay for it"

No, it would not be correct, as I explained above. Furthermore, this line carries terrible context. It sounds like a spoiled child speaking. You could carry the exact same message by simply saying, "Could anyone who was trained by Kathe Perez tell me how she trained you?" - your insertion of "free" and "because I shouldn't have to pay for it" genuinely serve no function except to incriminate intent.

QuoteI am afraid I cannot help you then, since I didn't "buy" my voice, and so it must be inferior.

I only spoke of how some of us are faced with paying for a voice for the wrong or unfulfilled reasons. At no point did I ever say OR indicate that the purchase of a voice is what made it valid or superior. You created this sentiment for me. It helps outline the rest of your post as taking issue with me.

QuoteIt's my fault to have misunderstood what you really wanted and spent so much time typing something that you didn't really want...

Why would it have to be YOUR fault? That implies blame, what are we blaming anyone for here? Misunderstanding? To me, that's really silly, and makes me feel as though you took offense. Additionally, how do you know I didn't want what you shared? Was it when I said that your advice was wonderful and has worked for me in the past? It was very hard for me not to take this as you being offended by and/or attacking me.

If you genuinely weren't trying to take issue with me, that's great, I'm happy. I'm only explaining to you how it felt that you were because you asked me to. I am frankly a bit embarrassed that I have already been a part of derailing Maja.V's thread so much. I doubt most people would or will want to read up to and beyond this point, and that has a hurtful impact on her, for which I am sorry.

Hello Sybil

I see that my words have really made you feel terrible...
I was uncertain in what I felt you were saying, but it seems that I had given you the impression that I was asserting those things as truth.
I accept fully that what I thought must have been wrong.

I want to reiterate that I am sorry to have made you feel that way.
I would like to stress that I sincerely mean this apology, and I am not just saying it without meaning it.

Sybil, I feel really bad when I end up in conflict with someone... I really hate it...
It's something I never intended, it's something I shouldn't have done, and yet I have done it...
I hope you will understand how I feel about this conflict I have caused, and forgive me for responding to all you have said in your last post only very briefly:
I admit I am wrong. This is all my fault. I'm truly sorry...

apple pie,

It's okay, I don't want you to worry about it at all. I don't feel terrible, either. As I said at the end of my last reply to you: I'm happy if you didn't really mean any of it. In another reply to you, I also mentioned being sad that we weren't getting along as we seemed to be; I'm genuinely not a stranger to disliking conflict, I understand how you feel.

Is English not your native language? Your English is very clear and contains excellent grammar, though I ask because your choice of prose is fairly unique (especially considering your excellent grammar and clarity). I also ask because of the Japanese in your signature. I have often been told that my prose is also unique despite being raised around English speakers, so please don't take this to mean I feel that you are the only contributor to the misunderstanding. I do not feel that way in the least.

If English is not your native tongue, I think I can see how it would be easy for there to have been confusion among us. Context is perhaps one of the most difficult things to understand in any language, and becomes even more so on the internet without tone. Because your English was so well-spoken, I did not want to assume (or presume) anything about it, for several reasons: I didn't want to offend you. A lot of people find this question offensive. I also didn't want to make you think there was anything wrong with your ability to communicate, because there isn't.

Honestly, even if language was not the reason, I don't want you to feel upset or beat yourself up about it. You tried to help me, and I sincerely appreciate that. This thread is not the first time you have made that effort, either, and I haven't forgotten. I was not upset at you when thinking you attacked me, I was mostly confused and feeling as though I had to defend myself. Please don't take it to mean that I think any less of you or want us to be at odds, discomfort, or an inability to grow together in the future. I really, genuinely do not feel that way and really am happiest if you share in the same feelings.

Sybil, I'm really glad, and very relieved, to read your words of understanding.
It would really pain me if by what I said, I made an enemy here...
You're right, I didn't grow up speaking English, though I have lived in an English-speaking country for quite a long while now.
I think I can see that what I wrote is unusual, but I don't really know why people wouldn't usually write the way I do...

And your words have made me felt better too. :) Thank you, Sybil...