Susan's Place Transgender Resources

What do you think about peoples like Conchita Wurst (http://www.conchitawurst.com/), Andrej Pejic, Bill Kaulitz (http://www.celebritypicnic.com/celebrities/bill-kaulitz/mainimage.jpg) and others.

Any step away from the social pressure for men to be almost uniformly masculine and drab can only be a good thing.

Gonna take a while though I fear.

They all are part of our community.  I think it's great that there are more places being made to go to on the gender spectrum.  This is the way Nature made us all.  It's the way society is supposed to be.

What I think Medusa is trying to get at is that these "girly males" are for the most part just feminine gay men and that it could possibly affect all mtf's because society may look at us and think we're also just feminine gay men or gay men to the extreme. Well, some folks already look at us that way.

who cares if they are girly males or effeminate gay men?

Just be yourself.

(I know, it's the MtF section, but I've a comment on this.)

Quote from: Annah on April 17, 2012, 08:08:12 AM
who cares if they are girly males or effeminate gay men?

Just be yourself.

I agree with this post.

I think the emergence of men not being so afraid to be feminine, while identifying as male such as Bill Kaulitz, is a good thing because it shows that men can be feminine and not be considered to have something wrong.  Yes, these are celebrities so they get a little bit more leeway than the just the average Joe, but I think it might eventually get to the point where men don't have to be so worried about coming off as "girly" though it'll probably take quite awhile to come that -- if it does.

This isn't the first time men have dressed in a feminine way ('80s hair bands, anyone?) and it's been awhile since that's happened and there is still a bit of a stigma of being a feminine man.

Quote from: JenJen2011 on April 17, 2012, 08:00:46 AM
What I think Medusa is trying to get at is that these "girly males" are for the most part just feminine gay men and that it could possibly affect all mtf's because society may look at us and think we're also just feminine gay men or gay men to the extreme. Well, some folks already look at us that way.

Fair comment... so do I like them? No

Can we stop them?! No

Would I want to socialize with any of them, AND their hangers on? No, thank you

Does that make me a bigot? I hope not

Do I want to hang out on freak-shows like "Ladies with Beard"...? Definately not either

Does THAT make a bigot? Surely not, as little has 'enjoying' dwarf-throwing and looking and indulging in other freak-stuff, like how about some body-modifications to make a penis look like a split banana?

Does one have to approve?

None needs my approval in any case :) So, I don't approve.

Oh, ... "is it good for mtf?" NO!

After all we do live in a culture - not a circus... like it or not.

Axélle

I generally don't think about them. I'm my own special little snowflake:)

Extremely binary notions of gender are delusional, IMHO. Therefore, I think this is a sign of people embracing reality which I think is generally good for the acceptance of transsexual and transgendered people and for just less bigotry in general.

Quote from: dalebert on April 17, 2012, 10:20:20 AM
Extremely binary notions of gender are delusional, IMHO. Therefore, I think this is a sign of people embracing reality which I think is generally good for the acceptance of transsexual and transgendered people and for just less bigotry in general.

Worded a little too thesaurus-y for my taste, but I think I agree. c:

Good question.

I don't know if it really affects all MTFs honestly because I think the problem a lot of MTFs have with being accepted is that they aren't very girly despite transitioning.

And then, I think most of the girly MTFs are stealth aside from a few close people.

There is definitely still a huge stigma against men being feminine though. At least, in the non-celebrity world. Most of the adoring fans of these feminine men are girls, and the pressure on men to "man up" was one imposed by other men in the first place. I don't know if those feminine male celebrities have been accepted for who they are so much as admitted into the modern celebrity freak show.

Who knows though  :)

This issue is no different than some MTF do not like "out trans people" and feel everyone should be stealth so being TG remain hidden from the public. I assume they feel it's easier for them to pass.  Some people were upset and hated Chaz for making being trans visible. I'm sure these same people won't like this either.

Personally I think it's great these people are out there. Just as I'm not like a stealth TS, I'm not like these people either. But diversity is something I accept as being good and applaud them for being themselves.

Given I don't "hang out" with people just because of what they are, that seems like a moot point for me. I don't have any TG friends nor any gay people I am friends with because they are gay. They might happen to be gay but that has nothing to do with why I like them. I've never gone to "gay bars" or hung out in the gay part of town, but I never avoided being around gay people either. I'm not much for segregating people by what they are.

 I don't think that feminine males will make much of a difference to society's view of us. Being trans is very different from just expressing yourself more femininely; body-"mutilation" is serious stuff.

If anything, all it does is get people to ask why we can't be like them. They'll ask us why we have to go so far as to transition when some people are content with looking like feminine males, and dressing femininely.

It will probably confuse the public more, and make it easier for them to see us as men. At first.

... If enough guys were feminine, though, they might receive some collateral understanding.

and I also believe that, as transgender people, we need to be very careful judging effeminate gay men. To the society outside of the trans circles, that would think us as Hypocrites. For those who are trans allies, they would still see us as hypocrites.

What gives us the right to judge men who want to act more girly, when we ourselves, completely bend societies' expectations of gender assumptions?

Especially Andrej and Bill are feminine by nature...in combination with their (gorgeous) feminine looks.

MTF are usually the extreme opposite of those 2: (very) masculine, rugged and formerly straight men, not interested in girly things like fashion, beauty, make up etc like Andrej and Bill but very often interested in gun play, weapons, football, army, computers etcetc.

I find Andrej and Bill completely natural and credible in their feminity whereas I find lots of MTF not so credible in their 'feminity'.

Most people *think* MTF are like Andrej and Bill, but alas, no way.

No way to compare those natural feminine beauties to most (very) masculine MTF...

Most people don't even realise most MTF used to be very masculine, very straight guys not remotely feminine in whatever respect.

Troll alert.

Quote from: Dahlia on April 17, 2012, 12:45:48 PM
Especially Andrej and Bill are feminine by nature...in combination with their (gorgeous) feminine looks.

MTF are usually the extreme opposite of those 2: (very) masculine, rugged and formerly straight men, not interested in girly things like fashion, beauty, make up etc like Andrej and Bill but very often interested in gun play, weapons, football, army, computers etcetc.

I find Andrej and Bill completely natural and credible in their feminity whereas I find lots of MTF not so credible in their 'feminity'.

Most people *think* MTF are like Andrej and Bill, but alas, no way.

No way to compare those natural feminine beauties to most (very) masculine MTF...

Most people don't even realise most MTF used to be very masculine, very straight guys not remotely feminine in whatever respect.

Might I suggest a brush with a smaller tip?  It seems the car-sized one you're using now is a bit inadequate for painting this portrait.

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on April 17, 2012, 12:51:17 PM
Might I suggest a brush with a smaller tip?  It seems the car-sized one you're using now is a bit inadequate for painting this portrait.

85% of the MTF population consists of lesbians/ex straight guys (accordingly behaving)

That's car sized tip, yes.

Andrej and Bill would make completely credible women and not for their looks only but also their *natural* feminine behaviour.

Did you pull that out of your arse?

Quote from: JenJen2011 on April 17, 2012, 12:57:27 PM
Did you pull that out of your arse?

I love your curly hair, Jen.

Why thank you! :)

I have no problem with anyone's personal gender expression.  Some "girly men" can be incredibly sexy.  I found the image of Conchita Wurst, however, to be disconcerting.

Quote from: Jamie D on April 17, 2012, 01:04:57 PM
I have no problem with anyone's personal gender expression.  Some "girly men" can be incredibly sexy.  If found the image of Conchita Wurst, however, to be disconcerting.

I think Conchita Wurst is fierce.

Then again I will bring up that I've slowly become gender blind.
I think he's very pretty here. :3

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHpwKW.jpg&hash=26af4a9e8cce21ef6e46e3d185ecf7740a4b2101)

Quote from: JenJen2011 on April 17, 2012, 12:57:27 PM
Did you pull that out of your arse?

In my Ministering in Matters of Sexuality at Seminary, the percentage was about 80% with a 4% margin of error where people who transitioned to female still dated women. The study was performed in 2008. I can dig up the sources. So she either got lucky making up the percentage or something else....but she didn't pull it out of her arse hehe

Annah - Not to sound like a Skeptical Susan (or maybe I would like to sound like that; Carl Sagan would be so proud), but I would like you to dig up those sources.  That sounds unbelievable.  Do you mean, of women who dated women when they were living as men, 80% continued to date women?  Because that's WAY different than 85% of all trans women being lesbians.

Sounds unbe-weave-able to me too.

Quote from: JoeyD on April 17, 2012, 01:09:14 PM
I think Conchita Wurst is fierce.

Then again I will bring up that I've slowly become gender blind.

Joey, I was just stating my personal aesthetic preference.  You must know how sensitive the issue of facial hair is for MtFs ... and GGs!!!  Hair removal is a billion dollar industry.

"Conchita" could be a very pretty phenotypical female, if not for the beard.

But whatever s/he is comfortable with, that's okay by me.

Quote from: Maya Zimmerman on April 17, 2012, 01:35:31 PM
Annah - Not to sound like a Skeptical Susan (or maybe I would like to sound like that; Carl Sagan would be so proud), but I would like you to dig up those sources.  That sounds unbelievable.  Do you mean, of women who dated women when they were living as men, 80% continued to date women?  Because that's WAY different than 85% of all trans women being lesbians.

The source interviewed a group of transitioning women and transitioned women. The question was simply "What is your sexual orientation." 80% voted Lesbian with a 4% margin of error. Again, you have to take into account the region etc etc (hence the margin of error).

A poll on pinkessence.com actually had the percentage of lesbians higher.

Other sources have transwomen at 30% heterosexual (umass).  Other universities has Lesbian transwomen at a much lower percentage.

It really depends on the site, the group, and the location.

For example, at PinkEssence.com there was only a handfew of us that weren't lesbians. On Susan's the statistic is (from what I have observed) has lesbians at about 40%. On a popular trans facebook page, the percentage of Lesbians was like that comparable to Pink Essence.com (where the percentage of Lesbians was easily 85%).

Also, age has some factor too (even though one would immediately dismiss the idea of age having to do with sexual orientation). Women who transitioned middle aged are more likely to be lesbians than a 19 year old who transitioned.

Quote from: Annah on April 17, 2012, 01:18:00 PM
In my Ministering in Matters of Sexuality at Seminary, the percentage was about 80% with a 4% margin of error where people who transitioned to female still dated women. The study was performed in 2008. I can dig up the sources. So she either got lucky making up the percentage or something else....but she didn't pull it out of her arse hehe

In Holland/EU being an MTF is a typical 'straight white man's thing' (and they're very often very homophobic considering gay men!?!)
95% of MTF's are white. A very small minority is of different colour/race and they are (almost?) always straight/into men.

85% of the MTF community here is ex straight/lesbian AND a father of multiple children.

According to a survey conducted by the Free University (where TS's are treated)

In South America it's exact the other way around; ex straight/lesbian MTF's are very rare in South America.

Same thing goes for Asia.

Quote from: Annah on April 17, 2012, 01:58:18 PM

Women who transitioned middle aged are more likely to be lesbians than a 19 year old who transitioned.

Do you really think sexual orientation is age related and not inborn???

On Topic:

what on earth would be the problem for the MTF community Andrej and Billy being naturally feminine and 100% naturally gorgeous and feminine looking?

That they're naturally like this and/but NOT mtf?

And  most MTF's NOT naturally feminine but transitioning?

I really wish they would or could represent the MTF community.
They're credible feminine and would make very, very nice -not over the top- women AND not masculine looking/acting MTF's either.

Just natural born feminine looking and acting.

Which is very rare in the MTF community btw.

who knows?

I do believe sexuality can be inborn and I do believe it can often be age related. Sexuality is so complex, i simply will not view sexuality in forms of absolutes. Sexuality is more of shades of grey than black and white.

I do believe sexuality is born into you, but I cannot dismiss the fact that some middle age trans women told me they are sexually attracted to women because that's what they have been used to and were raised into it.

While you may think that logic is wrong, I cannot invalidate their feelings on their own sexuality.

Besides, I do not think being a lesbian is a bad thing. It is what it is. I am neutral on the subject. If you're a lesbian...awesome. If you are straight...awesome. If you are bi, pan, a, omni, or anything else...awesome.

Quote from: JoeyD on April 17, 2012, 01:09:14 PM
I think Conchita Wurst is fierce.

Then again I will bring up that I've slowly become gender blind.
I think he's very pretty here. :3

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHpwKW.jpg&hash=26af4a9e8cce21ef6e46e3d185ecf7740a4b2101)

  Yeah he is pretty but the full on beard is kinda weird lol. I mean if he wants to express both male & female characteristics that's fine but I think he could have done something else to express the male side.
 
  The beard is a bit much.  :icon_blink:

Quote from: Annah on April 17, 2012, 04:29:15 PM

I do believe sexuality is born into you, but I cannot dismiss the fact that some middle age trans women told me they are sexually attracted to women because that's what they have been used to and were raised into it.

What happens too is MTF's who used to be 100% straight guys become lesbians and post SRS 'discover' they like men (too).

As an asset to their new feminity that is. They seem to 'raise themselves into that'.

And as a man 'being raised into being sexual attracted to women' means gay/bi men wouldn't exist at all.

Quote from: Dahlia on April 17, 2012, 04:19:54 PM
I really wish they would or could represent the MTF community.
They're credible feminine and would make very, very nice -not over the top- women AND not masculine looking/acting MTF's either.

Just natural born feminine looking and acting.

Which is very rare in the MTF community btw.

I agree with this, we need more people like that representing the trans community that actually look and act like women.

Quote from: MacKenzie on April 17, 2012, 04:38:15 PM
  Yeah he is pretty but the full on beard is kinda weird lol. I mean if he wants to express both male & female characteristics that's fine but I think he could have done something else to express the male side.
 
  The beard is a bit much.  :icon_blink:

I just love his look! He looks like a FTM who used to be a very beautiful woman and remained some of his feminity and feminine looks.

Quote from: Dahlia on April 17, 2012, 04:43:43 PM
I just love his look! He looks like a FTM who used to be a very beautiful woman and remained some of his feminity and feminine looks.

Haha yeah the beard throws me off but he is gorgeous!   :D

To each their own

IF WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH OTHERS

that is an insecurity we have in ourselves

Quote from: Dahlia on April 17, 2012, 04:43:43 PM
I just love his look! He looks like a FTM who used to be a very beautiful woman and remained some of his feminity and feminine looks.

I'm sorry, but this is more than moderately offensive.
Just no.

The only thing I can come up with, really, is that... that guy really needs to shave. That beard is bringing down his entire image, seriously. I mean, that's cool if he's into it and feels comfortable with it... but it's embarrassing. >.<

I LOVEEE fem guys (not in a sexual way, I just really love how they rock and aren't afraid to do what they like... femininity shouldn't be a negative... though, sadly it is equal to weakness in western society).

Then again, I also consider myself a fem guy... just one that is a bit more fem than normal guys can go (you know, since I got the estrogen and stuffs heehee).... soo, I might be biased :P

Well it's about time. After decades of tomboys being accepted and causing a double standard, sallygirls may make it easier on us to trans.  Also these people may be undiscovered transsexuals so spread our cause and fix their bodies! :)

Bebe, assuming infeminate gay men as undiscovered trans is just as bad as assuming tomboys are lesbians or ftm.

Quote from: Annah on April 17, 2012, 05:58:24 PM
Bebe, assuming infeminate gay men as undiscovered trans is just as bad as assuming tomboys are lesbians or ftm.

I agree, but 'infeminate'(effeminate) is something completely different from natural feminine which is something most MTF's aren't.

I think it's utterly irrelevant.

If you're mtf you're female, would ask if the tend of feminine males is good for women?

 Well, asfsd... more feminine males means more males than can sympathize with/understand women better, which may lead to better workplace performance for females.

It helps in that regard.

However, I still believe it's harmful, if anything, to MtFs with the current level of ignorance society carries about itself. It doesn't help that most see us as men... and yes, it doesn't help that some of us act and look the part, too.

Ok, I am going to try a new approach.  Personally the put downs from people here don't bother me, because I am full time and I don't get in them in real life.  I also have noticed that it seems to be related to maturity and so I can usually just consider the source and move on.

However I started the whole tilting at windmills thing because we are not just talking to the people in this thread.  This thread and others may be watched by dozens of lurkers.  What do you think they are seeing?  Please remember how you felt when you first were trying to admit that you were trans and had to actually do something about it.  Remember those feelings of fear, anxiety, guilt, and shame?  Think about how many of us were considering that suicide would be easier than transition.  If you had support think about how you would have felt if you had NONE.  Now with those thoughts in mind let me propose a few "example" MTF lurkers.  Assume they are all broke and cannot afford any special surgeries.

• A 6'4" tall girl - what has she seen from us?  We've told her she will always be ugly because of her height. 
  
• A very masculine faced girl that feels she will never be pretty.  We've told her that beauty is the most important and transition is about that, not being who you are.
  
• A girl that feels attracted to one of the other girls in her social grouping.  We've told her that it is just a fetish and she isn't real.
  
• A girl that likes to play soccer.  We've told her that sports are a manly hobby and even though women play, it isn't "feminine".
  
• A girl that has health conditions that will prevent SRS/GCS/GRS.  We've told her she should transition too.
  
• A girl more comfortable in jeans and a tee.  We've told her that isn't feminine enough and she isn't real.
  

WE ARE KILLING OUR OWN SISTERS!  Even if they don't commit suicide, they are likely dead inside.  The world is harsh enough.  Often their own biological family has outcast them, and now they see their family here degrading them?

I want people to be more considerate not because I'm easily offended, but because how many of the lurkers seeing your post just walked away from the forums and maybe life?

Quit making rules of who is trans and who isn't.  Anyone who says they are trans is and that is it.  Who gave us the authority to make rules?  And if we just took it then what is to prevent others from making more.  For example until you have GCS you aren't trans, or until you have FFS you aren't trans, or until you are at least a large B cup you aren't trans.  If there are any rules then there will always be rules that you yourself will fail.  Think about that before you make these "rules". 

I've used this quote before, but I encourage you all to go and google it. 

QuoteQuis custodiet ipsos custodes?

If we allow people to become above the "law" then how do we keep them from creating unattainable rules?

I spent decades dead inside and when I finally decided that I had to do something I was so upset and close to suicide that if I had seen some of these recent threads right then I'm not sure I would still be here.

This is TOO IMPORTANT to keep doing, we OWE our sisters unconditional support!

Years ago when I first got online I can't count how many times I was told "Unless you are post op, you are a man in a dress". Jeneva is spot on with her post. The hostility and abuse from INSIDE the transgender community is simply amazing.

Quote from: Stephe on April 18, 2012, 07:39:40 AM
Years ago when I first got online I can't count how many times I was told "Unless you are post op, you are a man in a dress". Jeneva is spot on with her post. The hostility and abuse from INSIDE the transgender community is simply amazing.

Hum, and that's why we tuck, and talk endlessly about facial hair removal, and make-up and how to act femme, and what not all.
I wish it was just THAT simple... as some would like us to have it. Really.
We would not even need a "support form" - what for then?

I don't see that these sort of circus-numbers are in any way helpful at all to make things any easier, not in our western Judaeo-Christian culture. Never mind some of those even less accepting.

To expect anything else is just have some politically correct trans-dreams...
As always YMMV or "without prejudice"

Axélle

Quote from: Stephe on April 18, 2012, 07:39:40 AM
Years ago when I first got online I can't count how many times I was told "Unless you are post op, you are a man in a dress". Jeneva is spot on with her post. The hostility and abuse from INSIDE the transgender community is simply amazing.

Andrej and Bill aren't MTF's and therefore born men in dresses and in make up (and not under wigs, judging from their natural looking hair)

But they are totally convincing natural feminine looking and acting AND they are themselves.

Most MTF's I've known and have seen are very masculine looking (that can be altered by FFS if one can afford that) and (very) masculine acting which isn't a surprise considering the fact they used to be straight men.

In other words: their 'claim to womanhood' doesn't come from the inside....instead of that their deep rooted masculinity comes from their inside.

Totally conflicting and confusing to look at  and listen to, not to mention sensing one's masculinity.

And they are very often the ones that consider feminine behaviour, hobbies, likes, dislikes, interest in beauty, fashion, a feminine profession as something negative.

<The hostility and abuse from INSIDE the transgender community is simply amazing.>

And so is the sometimes rampant homophobia towards 'effeminate' gay men from former straight men/MTF lesbians very amazing too!

Quote from: Dahlia on April 18, 2012, 08:00:21 AM
Most MTF's I've known and have seen are very masculine looking (that can be altered by FFS if one can afford that) and (very) masculine acting which isn't a surprise considering the fact they used to be straight men.

In other words: their 'claim to womanhood' doesn't come from the inside....instead of that their deep rooted masculinity comes from their inside.

Totally conflicting and confusing to look at  and listen to, not to mention sensing one's masculinity.

And they are very often the ones that consider feminine behaviour, hobbies, likes, dislikes, interest in beauty, fashion, a feminine profession as something negative.

Even after I asked you to consider what you are saying to lurkers you post this?  This is downright hostile.  Not to mention a huge broad brush that is likely mi->-bleeped-<-ting more people than "fit" those criteria.  I think if you read carefully you will see that many of us argue that those are not prerequisites, not that they aren't ok.  I love to cook.  I love to garden (especially flowers).  But I am not going to post and say that if you don't like to cook and don't like flowers then you aren't a woman.

Quote from: Dahlia on April 18, 2012, 08:00:21 AM
And so is the sometimes rampant homophobia towards 'effeminate' gay men from former straight men/MTF lesbians very amazing too!

Please show me a single instance where I have been hostile toward a group of people so that I may go back and honestly apologize to them.

Quote from: Dahlia on April 18, 2012, 08:00:21 AM
Most MTF's I've known and have seen are very masculine looking (that can be altered by FFS if one can afford that) and (very) masculine acting which isn't a surprise considering the fact they used to be straight men.

In other words: their 'claim to womanhood' doesn't come from the inside....instead of that their deep rooted masculinity comes from their inside.

Totally conflicting and confusing to look at  and listen to, not to mention sensing one's masculinity.

And they are very often the ones that consider feminine behaviour, hobbies, likes, dislikes, interest in beauty, fashion, a feminine profession as something negative.

Hmm so born females who don't act feminine are men in your opinion as well? And only MTF who take up knitting and reading vogue can consider themselves women..

Great job applying stereotypes.

Quote from: Jeneva on April 18, 2012, 08:11:56 AM
Even after I asked you to consider what you are saying to lurkers you post this?

I strongly recommend lurkers to go to a 3d MTF meeting, group or whatever and see in real life for themselves.
Probably they immediately feel at home and at ease as soon as they see the average MTF there is masculine looking and acting too and they can talk freely about baseball, soccer, cars, computers, motorcycles, the army weapons, gunplay, women etcetc

QuotePlease show me a single instance where I have been hostile toward a group of people so that I may go back and honestly apologize to them.

I didn't mean you personally. Just talk to some former straight man/father of children/lesbian MTF and find out for yourself how homophobic she can be.

Imagine! As a (lesbian) MTF getting mixed up with an 'effinate' gay man! That's were such homophobia comes from. Sometimes even sheer hatred.

Quote from: Dahlia on April 18, 2012, 08:22:30 AM
I strongly recommend lurkers to go to a 3d MTF meeting, group or whatever.

And would you have had the courage to go to a real life group meeting without having had some pseudo anonymous discussions first?  A board like this lets people explore their gender with so much less risk, fear, and need for courage that a real life group would require.

Quote from: Dahlia on April 18, 2012, 08:22:30 AM
I didn't mean you personally. Just talk to some former straight man/father of children/lesbian MTF and find out for yourself how homophobic she can be.

Ummm, I do have children and am happily married to my female wife and do identify as a lesbian.  Even if all lesbian MTFs were hostile, you still should not meet hate with hate.  Turn the other cheek, and it harm none, make love not war, and all that jazz.

There is already enough hate in the world.  Lets share love instead.  Love is infinite.  You don't have kill or send away your siblings so you get more of your parents love.  Their love grows with each new child enough to love all completely.  At least if they truly love their children (and unfortunately many of us here have those parents).

<And would you have had the courage to go to a real life group meeting without having had some pseudo anonymous discussions first>

Yes, I did. Before the internet existed. And I was very, very naive and assumed MTF's would be feminine, like I was and am.

Turned out I was completely wrong and that I belonged to a minor minority within a minority.

Broad brushes are broad.

What do celebrities who choose to present a certain way to reinforce their celebrity have to do with transgender perceptions?

They are not transgender, and making a tenuous connection by proposing that we're somehow better off due to their efforts seems odd to me.

You're not seeing people exactly like them get discriminated against and threatened with violence on a daily basis in front of cameras.  They appear pseudo-safe as a result of their celebrity.   What flies under the radar in Los Angeles, CA does not fly in Jackson, MS.

The "feminine males foster a better understanding of women" theory is brutally flawed, as there is no way it applies universally.  I am not a feminine male, I am transgender, and require no social oddity, regardless of how celebrated in the moment, to hide behind or to speak for me.

It's difficult enough trying to educate and differentiate being transgender from a slew of other things and labels.  Muddying the waters by attempting to so closely identify ( for some non-existent benefit) with things we are not just contributes to sustaining ignorance and fear in my opinion.

-Miki

reminder

Quote
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

    Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
    Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

and

Quote
15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.

Quote from: Dahlia on April 18, 2012, 08:52:38 AM
Yes, I did. Before the internet existed. And I was very, very naive and assumed MTF's would be feminine, like I was and am.

Dahlia - they are what they want to be, just like you are. What is wrong with that?

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 18, 2012, 07:49:50 AM
To expect anything else is just have some politically correct trans-dreams...

And why is it not a good dream?  To have a world where all are treated fairly and equally and are accepted for who they are?

Quote
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
Eleanor Roosevelt

"So many of our dreams at first seem impossible, then they seem improbable, and then, when we summon the will, they soon become inevitable."

"If you can dream, it you can do it. Always remember that this whole thing was started with a dream and a mouse."
Walt Disney

"You see things; and you say, Why ? But I dream things that never were; and I say, Why not ?"
George Bernard Shaw

"Dream no small dreams for they have no power to move the hearts of men."

"Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world."

Harriet Tubman

Quote from: Zythyra on April 18, 2012, 09:06:43 AM
reminder

Thank you for that, Zythyra. This is the most active forum I've ever partaken of regularly and I'm sure that's in no small part due to the efforts of folks like you.

It has a neutral effect on the acceptance of MTFs as females, but it may appear to have a good effect on the tolerance of MTFs in general, because, let's face it, most of society sees MTFs as feminine males. The only way for an mtf to be accepted as female rather than feminine male amongst mainstream society is to be stealth for now.

With better tolerance in general, it may be finally possible to get most of society to recognise us as females even when we are out and open later on.

But let's think about this. Us MTFs can't be solely focused on our interest because, after all, we only constitute less than 0.1% of the population. The trend of girly males also benefits the other 99.9%+ of the population, because it ends the stupid rule that 'males have to be masculine', something that we should really feel for seeing that we grew up as 'feminine boys' (from society's perspective) and had the same issues ourselves. I myself would be overjoyed, more than at any LGBT legal rights progress, if one day children will no longer grow up with 'boys don't cry' and other silly stuff like that.

Quote from: Princess Allison on April 18, 2012, 11:54:56 AM

... because it ends the stupid rule that 'males have to be masculine', something that we should really feel for seeing that we grew up as 'feminine boys' (from society's perspective) and had the same issues ourselves.

That is not a universal experience.  It was not mine, at all.

There's a risk of condemning "males being masculine" as a knee-jerk reaction to personal experiences struggling with that expectation.

If every aspect of gender expression is homogenized, that doesn't really solve anything, it just blurs the lines so badly that distinctions are irrelevant.  For me, that falls into a "perfect world" scenario and feels more than a little unrealistic and pipe-dream politically correct.

ymmv.

-Miki

Quote from: Miki on April 18, 2012, 12:19:20 PM
That is not a universal experience.  It was not mine, at all.

There's a risk of condemning "males being masculine" as a knee-jerk reaction to personal experiences struggling with that expectation.

It may not be an universal experience, but this is an MTF forum after all, I'd expect most of us to have had that experience.

I'm not condemning males being masculine, I'm just condemning the unhealthy expectations that they HAVE TO BE. Males can be anything, really, and I have nothing against masculinity per se.

I did not grow up feminine at all. So be careful about assuming that is the majority of how MtFs are.

This was me in 2008

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdesmond.imageshack.us%2FHimg96%2Fscaled.php%3Fserver%3D96%26amp%3Bfilename%3D12464120760790662711215.jpg%26amp%3Bres%3Dlanding&hash=372adcfa89e3308760bbe7439ba3760b82734379)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdesmond.imageshack.us%2FHimg199%2Fscaled.php%3Fserver%3D199%26amp%3Bfilename%3Dmyprincessc.jpg%26amp%3Bres%3Dlanding&hash=b1037c0f9ba26fcbf6863d8b15278c0d88630e94)

So no. It is not the general rule that MtF were once feminine boys

Some posters say the majority of mtf's were feminine boys, others say the majority were masculine straight men. Who the freak cares!!!

Quote from: JenJen2011 on April 18, 2012, 02:09:54 PM
Some posters say the majority of mtf's were feminine boys, others say the majority were masculine straight men. Who the freak cares!!!

it becomes a problem when people start to generalize people. Generalization of people, sexes, cultures, and beliefs often leads to a stereotype. A stereotype often leads to misunderstanding. And misunderstanding may often lead to an unfair judgement of a person regardless of their sex, gender, culture, or belief.

Quote from: JenJen2011 on April 18, 2012, 02:09:54 PM
Some posters say the majority of mtf's were feminine boys, others say the majority were masculine straight men. Who the freak cares!!!

Exactly.

Quote from: Dahlia on April 18, 2012, 08:00:21 AM
Andrej and Bill aren't MTF's and therefore born men in dresses and in make up (and not under wigs, judging from their natural looking hair)

But they are totally convincing natural feminine looking and acting AND they are themselves.

Most MTF's I've known and have seen are very masculine looking (that can be altered by FFS if one can afford that) and (very) masculine acting which isn't a surprise considering the fact they used to be straight men.

In other words: their 'claim to womanhood' doesn't come from the inside....instead of that their deep rooted masculinity comes from their inside.

Totally conflicting and confusing to look at  and listen to, not to mention sensing one's masculinity.

And they are very often the ones that consider feminine behaviour, hobbies, likes, dislikes, interest in beauty, fashion, a feminine profession as something negative.

<The hostility and abuse from INSIDE the transgender community is simply amazing.>

And so is the sometimes rampant homophobia towards 'effeminate' gay men from former straight men/MTF lesbians very amazing too!

  This is very true, I wish there were a nicer way to put it but there isn't. I think these girly men would represent mtf's better then the majority of mtf's themselves.

QuoteIn other words: their 'claim to womanhood' doesn't come from the inside....instead of that their deep rooted masculinity comes from their inside.Totally conflicting and confusing to look at  and listen to, not to mention sensing one's masculinity.

  I've noticed this as well when I speak with some mtf's in real life and on sites like this. They don't come across as female, it's like they're lacking that female "essence" that cisgender women have. This is why I don't like to have mtf trans friends in real life because when i'm talking to them it feels like i'm speaking to a man pretending to be female, it's not really about how they look it's just that female essence isn't there at all. I find it rather strange to expect people to treat you like a woman and yet disregard your appearance and act in a masculine way. It's like saying to people "Hey...IM A WOMAN!! *in homer simpson voice*"  :laugh:

QuoteYes, I did. Before the internet existed. And I was very, very naive and assumed MTF's would be feminine, like I was and am. Turned out I was completely wrong and that I belonged to a minor minority within a minority.

  This reminds me of when I attended my first mtf trans support group. I walked in the room assuming there would be other trans women that looked and behaved like women only to find middle to old age trans women/crossdressers giving me the evil eye. I sat down next to one of the women, she looks at me and says "Listen if you want to pass a woman someday like me then pay attention." if she would have actually passed I would have listened but she did not even pass as an old lady.  :icon_crazy:

  Dahila here's a little piece of advice, if you don't wanna get smited/reported/watched/banned then don't go against the majority here. I know how you feel, it is sad that people who actually do fit into the primary or "true transsexual" mold are not welcome here and are seen as a threat and labeled elitists.

  Honestly I feel like an outsider here.
 
  I'm starting to understand now why Mahsa the disco shark left Susans place.   

Oh my God Mackenzie, we definitely need a leader like you to represent us all. You would be perfect since you have that female essence.

Quote from: JenJen2011 on April 18, 2012, 04:58:36 PM
Oh my God Mackenzie, we definitely need a leader like you to represent us all. You would be perfect since you have that female essence.

Yeah but I don't look as good as you Jen! In case your wondering that was sarcasm.  :)

Lets leave out the snide comments folks. 

Final warning.

Quote from: MacKenzie on April 18, 2012, 04:29:51 PM
   Dahila here's a little piece of advice, if you don't wanna get smited/reported/watched/banned then don't go against the majority here. I know how you feel, it is sad that people who actually do fit into the primary or "true transsexual" mold are not welcome here and are seen as a threat and labeled elitists.

Quote
Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Wow I just realized that maybe that particular scene in Monty Python's Holy Grail may actually be relevant here since Arthur called him Old Woman.

Are you truly not welcome here because of who you are or rather because of advocating that some animals are more equal than others?

If you say that X is better than Y then you ARE an elitist and aren't just being labeled.

Quote from: Jeneva on April 18, 2012, 05:54:42 PM
Wow I just realized that maybe that particular scene in Monty Python's Holy Grail may actually be relevant here since Arthur called him Old Woman.

Are you truly not welcome here because of who you are or rather because of advocating that some animals are more equal than others?

If you say that X is better than Y then you ARE an elitist and aren't just being labeled.

Lol Jeneva those are your words not mine. I love how you try and act all self righteous when these topics come up.

Do heterosexual feminine trans women threaten you? Is that why you get all worked up when someone mentions ->-bleeped-<-/cross dreamers? lol

Quote from: MacKenzie on April 18, 2012, 06:12:19 PM
Lol Jeneva those are your words not mine. I love how you try and act all self righteous when these topics come up.

Do heterosexual feminine trans women threaten you? Is that why you get all worked up when someone mentions ->-bleeped-<-/cross dreamers? lol

No, actually I'm fine and not threatened by any of this.  I have a great life and wonderful family.  My wife can't wait until I can have full GCS and both of our kids are fully supportive.  My therapist told me the other day that it was sort of funny for her to work with me toward my GCS letter since I was so "normal".  She said that once I came out and broke away from my family so I didn't have anxiety issues that she really didn't feel like she needed to see me if it wasn't for the "rules" saying she had to in order to write my letter.  My job is going well and pays great.  I pass and am accepted as female almost all the time now that I've recovered from FFS.  I'm scheduled to have an orchi in less than a week so I can cut out the T blockers.  It is going to be a few years before I can afford GCS, but we are on track to be TOTALLY debt free in that same time period. 

I'm finally free of my controlling family that stopped me from transitioning 30 years ago.  And ironically even though those family members aren't friendly anymore I've found dozens of people in real life that have accepted me with open arms.  Many of those people I would not have been allowed to associate with before I broke free from my family.

I've felt the love of the Divine as the Goddess welcomed me as her daughter with a hug.  And I know she is clearing my path and making it easier because all of the serendipitous events make that plain to see.  I have learned who I am and fully accepted myself.

I do not "fear" heterosexual feminine trans women, as I've said before I'm actually much more feminine than my wife.  Femininity doesn't scare or threaten me.  Heterosexuality doesn't scare or threaten me.  What does scare me is attempts inside our own community to carve it up into smaller domains.  Perhaps you've heard the phrase "United we stand, divided we fall"?

I don't think it really helps us, as they are males, regardless of how effeminate their manner is.. And all I can see it doing is reinforcing the greater part of societies belief that MTF's are simply effeminate males.. Which we all know we are not, regardless of any allegedly masculine traits we may have..

Quote from: MacKenzie on April 18, 2012, 04:29:51 PM
  This is very true, I wish there were a nicer way to put it but there isn't. I think these girly men would represent mtf's better then the majority of mtf's themselves.


  I've noticed this as well when I speak with some mtf's in real life and on sites like this. They don't come across as female, it's like they're lacking that female "essence" that cisgender women have. This is why I don't like to have mtf trans friends in real life because when i'm talking to them it feels like i'm speaking to a man pretending to be female, it's not really about how they look it's just that female essence isn't there at all. I find it rather strange to expect people to treat you like a woman and yet disregard your appearance and act in a masculine way. It's like saying to people "Hey...IM A WOMAN!! *in homer simpson voice*"  :laugh:

What is a 'female'? Just because some MTF's do not conform to stereotypes is no reason to malign them..

QuoteThis reminds me of when I attended my first mtf trans support group. I walked in the room assuming there would be other trans women that looked and behaved like women only to find middle to old age trans women/crossdressers giving me the evil eye. I sat down next to one of the women, she looks at me and says "Listen if you want to pass a woman someday like me then pay attention." if she would have actually passed I would have listened but she did not even pass as an old lady.  :icon_crazy:

The support group I went to covered the spectrum of passability.. And they were all lovely women, or men, depending on whether they were MTF or FTM..

QuoteDahila here's a little piece of advice, if you don't wanna get smited/reported/watched/banned then don't go against the majority here. I know how you feel, it is sad that people who actually do fit into the primary or "true transsexual" mold are not welcome here and are seen as a threat and labeled elitists.

  Honestly I feel like an outsider here.
 
  I'm starting to understand now why Mahsa the disco shark left Susans place.

I've found you can say what you like here.. You just need to exercise a modicum of tact..

Quote from: JenJen2011 on April 18, 2012, 02:09:54 PM
Some posters say the majority of mtf's were feminine boys, others say the majority were masculine straight men. Who the freak cares!!!

Several large brushes and flame throwers being wielded in this thread..

I was born in 1946.  In growing up being effeminate and being a female automatically made you a second hand citizen who were to be dominated by the males.    Coming out of my shell and accepting that I am really a women in my 50s meant my body has been dominated by male hormones for all of those years.   If chances if life ever make it possible for me to take hormones and have surgery I will always maintain male characteristics, such as my size thirteen feet.   

I will always present as a mixture of male and female characteristics.   When effeminate males become more and more accepted by society and their rights are accepted.    I feel that I will have more and more acceptance as being a women despite my male characteristics.   If my life does not make it possible for me to take hormones and have surgery, I still feel that less and less attention will be paid to the male characteristics I cannot cover up.

I am a woman and not a man pretending to be one.   I have ditched all of my specifically male clothes.   All I have left from those days are sweat shirts and tee shirts which could be worn by either a man or a woman.

I also realize that with some people I will never be a woman because I was born with a y chromosome.  But that is their problem and not mine.

What you see in my picture is how I dress and I don't try and hide the fact that I am a woman.   I don't correct people when they call me sir.   I let it pass.   My drivers licence says male, but my senior bus pass says female.

I realize that for reason of legal identity such as Social Security and legal government papers I have to say male because that is how I am identified by the government.    This does not make me a male.   In the end we establish our own identity.

To the extent that effeminate males acceptance in public and their rights  are protected makes it possible to disappear into the  sea of woman and fewer and fewer people question the fact that I am a woman is fine with me.

Also to the extent that it is ok for declared males to present in a feminine matter in public and this does not lessen their social status to second class citizens will mean that maleness and femaleness are equal in society and being male does not give you automatic control in society.

In the back of my mind even when I fight against it I will always be a 1950s woman in my mind.   I will be satisfied as being a homebody who when it comes a time that I ever go to the senior center I will join all of the other women in our corner of the room and let the men go into there's and be just another old bitty.

i think its rather sad to see trans here compare one another as to who really is a real woman based on certain criteria...meanwhile many people out there in the world would shoot both perspectives down and say "you both are men in dresses for all I am concerned"

Rather than trying to temperature gauge people here with an elitist attitude of what makes a real girl or what doesn't try something totally out of the box: respect one anther's decisions and, at the same time, worry about your own. Because many people will see how ironic it is in the first place for a transsexual to judge another transsexual as to who is the more real woman.

The biggest problem that all of us transgender women face is the attitude of many people we can never be female because we were born with a y chromosome.   Yes I know that some of us have variations in our chromosomes so this is not an issue for all of us.

Many of us transgender woman came out of our male shells well after puberty so eliminating or minimizing our male characteristics is beyond our means.      We will not be able to hid the fact that the male chromosome has shaped our bodies.

Anything that blends female and male physical characteristics makes it more possible for me to be accepted emotionally as a woman in public and casual relationships does not hurt us.    The more effeminate males are accepted, the less that my being a woman will be questioned.    From my picture you see me in public.   Sometimes without malice people call me sir and in the next breath call me ma'am.   

I can't change peoples thinking so I don't try.   I will never be accepted as a woman by those people who say that to be a woman I have to have to be born with two X chromosomes even if someday genetic science allows me to exchange my y chromosome for an X chromosome.    They will still say you have to be BORN WITH 2 X'S.

So what if their are effeminate males for they are only saying that being female is just as good as being male, and maybe even preferable.

That what any other person does could have any impact on your life at all is a delusional thought based on massive ego problems.  Your life is your life, that other people are 'more than' and others 'less than' you are is a condition of life that exists in every freaking aspect of it, and is constantly changing to boot.

No body in the real world is representing any group unless you're Barrak Obama or otherwise elected to do so.  People are out doing what they do - basically doing their best to muddle through and making it up as they go at that - and it's all they can do to keep their own lives together without having to wonder what they could do today to piss other people off and make them look bad in the process.

Certainly not celebrities, media figures, and people you see on TV.  They are not thinking about anything beyond themselves, trust me on that.

I really don't understand the point of these kinds of threads, since all they do is highlight, and bring to the fore, the various insecurities that people have. Which kinda defies the point of a support site.

It always reminds me of people climbing a mountain together, and rather than giving each other a helping hand to all reach the summit, they're trying to kick each other off instead so they can be the one to plant a flag and name the route used in the ascent.

For people to question and/or doubt others' sense of self and identity, that only illustrates a burning need to validate and re-affirm one's own, at whatever cost. Nothing more.

Annah is right, it is sad to see. No one here has anything to prove to anyone else. That they've proved it to themselves is enough. Or should be.

Well now, THESE type threads have ways to become confrontational - most ALWAYS drifting away from the SUBJET at hand: What do you think about today's trend of girly males, is it good for us (MtF)?

I still think that this type high exposure of non-MtF, males is in NO WAY helpful to our specific situation (MtF). The subject CLEARLY speaks of MALES, girly males, sporting a full beards, no less.

Please... does any male acting in this way become some trans-* what ever, and so support our issues?
They are a parody of themselves, I think.
Little to do with anything female as such, other then in being some sort of joke?
Things are to be seen within some cultural context, - like it or not.

Given such, I do not see at all "them climbing the same mountain..."

They climb SOME mountain, OK, but not the mountain we are busy climbing.
THAT IS THE ISSUE, in my understanding.

WHY should one figure this sort of circus-number be of any help to some "mainstream" MtF?
If that be so... any clown, Tom, Dick and Harry be supporting us then... just because THEY ARE DIFFERENT?

This in answer to the OP's question asked: "NO, I think this is not helpful at all."

Axélle

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 18, 2012, 11:25:08 PM
I think they climb SOME mountain, but not the mountain we are busy climbing.
THAT IS THE ISSUE, in my understanding.
WHY should one think this sort of circus-number be of any help to some "mainstream" MtF?

First, lets narrow this down to "the mountain I am busy climbing"

And second, drop the "this sort of circus-number" talk given this same label could have likely been used about you at some point by someone who didn't understand.

You seem kinda hostile towards fem guys :|  ((which, I identify as))

I gotta say, I'm climbing a lot of the same mountains you (and many mtf's) are...

The only mountain I'm not climbing is the "I'm really a girl" one (which, I guess I still need to battle... because people assume I am female quite often now... even my friends and family are insisting that I don't count as a guy anymore and I'm really a girl...).

But, besides that, I'm still helping out to bring more understanding towards transgendered issues (not just transsexual). I actually spend a lot of my time educating those around me about the subject.

So, how exactly am I not helpful at all?

Quote from: Stephe on April 18, 2012, 11:34:15 PM
First, lets narrow this down to "the mountain I am busy climbing"

And second, drop the "this sort of circus-number" talk given this same label could have likely been used about you at some point by someone who didn't understand.

1) So, anyone climbing SOME odd mountain helps any MtF then? That is quite a stretch in deed.

2) I have seen "Lady with a Beard" in more the one circus display, I have not seen folks on display MtF... in deed we do TRY so real hard NOT to be on display... never mind in any circus.

3) I mentioned it before... tucking, make-up, HRT, BA, FFS, SRS, etc. take some and leave some.
How about that?

4) If you present male - being MtF or what ever, then this subject aught be NO issue. Why even get involved?

Look male, present male, finish. No issue, or?

Axélle

Um... I think femme guys are pretty cool and pretty brave. They're doing what I do (andro girl *wave*), only it's rather harder for them 'cause the borders of masculinity are much more aggressively policed.

And the more people who are out violating gender norms, the more everyone gets used to it, realizes the world hasn't actually ended, and relaxes a bit more about the whole deal. I'm pretty much always in favour of more relaxation of the rules of gendered behaviour and codes of dress. The less people care what other people do with their own bodies/presentation, the less trans folks are gonna get hassled.

And given that I presented as a femme guy for a decade or so, it would be monstrously unfair of me not to be supportive.

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 18, 2012, 11:25:08 PM
I still think that this type high exposure of non-MtF, males is in NO WAY helpful to our specific situation (MtF). The subject CLEARLY speaks of MALES, girly males, sporting a full beards, no less.

We may not sport full beards, but a significant proportion of society sees us as feminine males, unless we keep stealth about our condition. There's no way around it.

Quote from: Sarah7 on April 18, 2012, 11:56:57 PM
And the more people who are out violating gender norms, the more everyone gets used to it, realizes the world hasn't actually ended, and relaxes a bit more about the whole deal. I'm pretty much always in favour of more relaxation of the rules of gendered behaviour and codes of dress. The less people care what other people do with their own bodies/presentation, the less trans folks are gonna get hassled.

That's exactly my point. Society do not see trans people in a vacuum, they either allow gender variance, or they do not, and if they do not, we all suffer.

Quote from: Sarah7 on April 18, 2012, 11:56:57 PM
And given that I presented as a femme guy for a decade or so, it would be monstrously unfair of me not to be supportive.

Again, that's why I thought that people here would generally be supportive.

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 18, 2012, 11:51:02 PM
1) So, anyone climbing SOME odd mountain helps any MtF then? That is quite a stretch in deed.

2) I have seen "Lady with a Beard" in more the one circus display, I have not seen folks on display MtF... in deed we do TRY so real hard NOT to be on display... never mind in any circus.

You being a freshly post-op TS (who wants to be stealth) doesn't directly help me. Actually being stealth doesn't help anyone but yourself. But then again I don't try to say "your mountain" is odd or hurts me either.

And while you may try real hard NOT to be on display or appear to be a circus, that doesn't mean at every point you have succeeded either. I look back at pictures of some of the first times I went out into the world as my true self and it's looks quite comical today. I thought I looked pretty good :P

Unless of course you were always the absolutely perfectly passing, never a hint of beard shadow model TS you think you always were. I never owned that pair of rose colored glasses.

It's sad you feel it's fine and dandy to insult and assault people who aren't just like you, climbing YOUR mountain.. 

Quote from: Sarah7 on April 18, 2012, 11:56:57 PM
And given that I presented as a femme guy for a decade or so, it would be monstrously unfair of me not to be supportive.

Ditto and I feel people like these guys are what is going to make it so: hopefully one day all this concern about "You have to pass or people will kill you" mindset is over and done with.

Quote from: Stephe on April 19, 2012, 01:42:32 AM
You being a freshly post-op TS (who wants to be stealth) doesn't directly help me. Actually being stealth doesn't help anyone but yourself. But then again I don't try to say "your mountain" is odd or hurts me either.

^^^^

Hehe, bing!

Well now... not that I have no understanding for dreams... I do.
But in a given society there are certain conditions/rules/expectations/etc.
You may "dream" as much as you wish, you will not by the power of some 0.01% of trans-folks "dreaming" change this by one iota. Even LGBT folks will be embarrassed, at least very many.

So, by being rational about it... is why I say "I does not help".

Having gone out with 2 cis-friends (a couple) to one slightly up-market restaurant last night, I just can imagine what their reaction would be, adding the rest of the clientele, anyone rocking up in female garb sporting a beard etc...

Now, it takes more or of a thick skin then anyone I happen to know, not to be rocked/shocked by such an encounter, and I may be excused to be equally taken aback - and more then just a little uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable...
This is the REALITY of what I'm thinking about.
And believe you me - IT DOES NOT HELP!

In fact the more people in this existing culture are confronted with such "exeptionalism" the more they are bound to become quite the opposite to accepting.

Go down-town one of your own US "trans-friendly" places - Atlanta, put on girl garb and sport a beard... then watch what happens!
I do wish you good luck with such a dream performance... it will be one freak-show, with whistling and hooting, and having stuff thrown at you, promise.

This... is reality, and not any dream-scenario is going to change any of it, not in my life time at any rate.
So, I do prefer to keep a low profile -within reason- and do not blast my surroundings with any misguided trans-activism.
It pisses off most people, and by most I mean 99.9%

Food for thought?
Axélle

I prefer to look at and listen to the natural feminine looking and acting girly guys whom I identify more with than  a white, former heterosexual male for whom the sky was the limit and now a MTF etc....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0z76RuJUQY&#


But then again....she's not out of the ordinairy here....

and talking about white, straight men's privilege...yes, she took it.

It takes an ego made out of fortified concrete to live as a 'man enough to be a woman'.

Such an ego is easy to develop and build when you grow up being, white, straight, etc and most certainly not different.
There's no chance of developing an ego like that when you grow notably different.

Quote from: Dahlia on April 19, 2012, 06:42:52 AM
I prefer to look at and listen to the natural feminine looking and acting girly guys whom I identify more with than  a white, former heterosexual male for whom the sky was the limit and now a MTF etc....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0z76RuJUQY&#


But then again....she's not out of the ordinairy here....

Just because we defend her right to be herself as SHE chooses, it does not mean we are exactly like her.  We are all unique and all have our own paths.  Mine likely is closer to yours than hers, but I will defend all three paths.

If I say "I'm OK, You're Ok" it is not an attack on someone saying "You're not OK"'s self.  You can be who you want, you just SHOULDN'T tear others down.  It is your WORDS that are being attacked NOT your choices.

Unfortunately too often the ones saying "You're not OK" view that as an attack and play the martyr.

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 19, 2012, 05:57:23 AM
Go down-town one of your own US "trans-friendly" places - Atlanta, put on girl garb and sport a beard... then watch what happens!
I do wish you good luck with such a dream performance... it will be one freak-show, with whistling and hooting, and having stuff thrown at you, promise.

This site specifically includes cross-dressers as part of the TG umbrella.  It also says that we are not to try and exclude people from

Quote
Transgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and Transvestites.

Quote
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

Regardless of your personal opinion can you at least see that your statement violates rule 10 because of how TG is defined on this site?

Quote from: Stephe on April 19, 2012, 01:42:32 AM
You being a freshly post-op TS (who wants to be stealth) doesn't directly help me. Actually being stealth doesn't help anyone but yourself

wow.......

Quote from: Princess Allison on April 19, 2012, 12:57:28 AM
We may not sport full beards, but a significant proportion of society sees us as feminine males, unless we keep stealth about our condition. There's no way around it.

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 19, 2012, 05:57:23 AM
Well now... not that I have no understanding for dreams... I do.
But in a given society there are certain conditions/rules/expectations/etc.
You may "dream" as much as you wish, you will not by the power of some 0.01% of trans-folks "dreaming" change this by one iota. Even LGBT folks will be embarrassed, at least very many.

So, by being rational about it... is why I say "I does not help".

Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on April 19, 2012, 05:57:23 AM
This... is reality, and not any dream-scenario is going to change any of it, not in my life time at any rate.

As long as we feel there is no way around it, or that the dream will never happen, IT WILL NOT.

Axélle you are likely right that it won't change in your lifetime, or probably even mine, but if we do not take the first step it WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

Change is painful and VERY scary.  But think about this.  If the early transwomen hadn't been written about where would we all be now?  We can't pay back those who came before, but perhaps we can pay a little forward for those who come after.

Quote from: Dr. Seuss
Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.

Quote from: Jeneva on April 19, 2012, 07:18:34 AM
As long as we feel there is no way around it, or that the dream will never happen, IT WILL NOT.

Axélle you are likely right that it won't change in your lifetime, or probably even mine, but if we do not take the first step it WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

Change is painful and VERY scary.  But think about this.  If the early transwomen hadn't been written about where would we all be now?  We can't pay back those who came before, but perhaps we can pay a little forward for those who come after.

Why does this remind me of Wilson speaking at Versailles... after WWI :)

US thinking still has this "idealist / exceptionalist" mind-set, and we European souls seem ever so much more obstinately otherwise :)

In the more recent history it was General de Gaulle, that had is work cut out dealing with those US "idealist / exceptionalist" ideas and notions :)

So then, ... some of us make good activist/idealists, some don't. The way the world goes.

Axélle

If you look at the places where it seems like TG people have a more open and accepting life because of the general society and culture you'll find that none of that was lead by some huge TG pioneer.  No bunch of super-fem post-ops, and enough studly FtMs to form a football team made it happen.  There were no leaders, lots and lots of group meetings but no plan.  In the end I think it was the going to and home from the meetings that mattered more than the meeting itself.  Because how it really happened was that first hundreds, thousands, (and now in the Bay Area tens of thousands) of highly visible people just went out and about, lived their life, were themselves and in doing they they demonstrated the infinite spectrum and day in and day out made it harder for people to discriminate based on some singular uncharacteristic.

That guy with a beard in the dress is actually getting you more positive vibes if you look at it right.  I mean hey, at least you're not that guy.  And to the degree that you come off as better, or prettier, or just slightly less offensive, then you are.  I mean your offended to the very core of your being by being compared to that person (and that is exactly how it sounds) in some sort of equal/sameness way.  But hey...

If your half as awesome as you think you are - and I'm sure that is being much too modest, you're really twice as awesome as that - aren't you winning that comparison to the guy in a beard in a dress (and I'll bet the dress is not even in fashion, much less in season) every single time?

Or, is it that what really bugs the ->-bleeped-<- out of you is that all these people you disapprove of are out, being who they are, some are even being successful at it, and damn it, they look like they are happy.  Is it that they 'didn't do what they were supposed to' (whatever litany that is) and got the results that you wanted, and you 'did the right things' and have not obtained the same results?

Is that it?


After all, we are all just wandering.  Above someone said there were three paths - thus one-uppping Robert Frost - but there are not two, or even three paths, there are infinite paths.  If there are paths at all.  I kinda think we're all making it up as we go - everyone is at some stage, everyone moving from one point to another.  The andros have it right, we're all just wandering in the forest, at some strange edge, out past were we have stars to guide us.  Your way is just that, no more, no less.





This... is reality, and not any dream-scenario is going to change any of it, not in my life time at any rate
I'm sorry, but the changes I've seen in my life, in terms of race, sexual equality and even in general acceptance of TG persons (and all sorts of other things, both good and bad) has been nothing short of constantly breath-taking.  Your looking at it all wrong.  Don't believe me?  (of course not, but that doubt is what makes you so cute)  Think about that guy in a dress in downtown Atlanta, and ask yourself 'What happens to him now, what happens 50 years ago?  What happens 20 years ago?  50-60 years ago, say 1960, I'd be shocked if he wasn't beat up and tied to the back of the car and taken for a scrape around town, or arrested, or put into a mental hospital, or all four.  Now he'll get laughed at by some I'd guess (though Atlanta bills itself as The City Too Busy To Hate), but that's better, that's a huge change, that's reality changing not just perceptions.

Quote from: Jeneva on April 19, 2012, 06:58:19 AM
Mine likely is closer to yours than hers

Not exactly. I'm not married to a woman and I'm not a father.
Which are ingredients for a -former- completely normal life where no one frowns upon you.

I grew up as a feminine child, adolescent, adult and no, there was no way to hide my femininety and yes, that made my (early) life a living hell.

It took me a veeeeeeery long time to shed my inferiority complexes about being different and being treated accordingly.

Which, thank god, doesn't happen to me anymore these days.

But I could never, ever in my early living hell life have imagined that very masculine, very manly men, fathers of multiple children can turn out to be MTF.
Not even in my wildest dreams.

It amazes me to this very day that 85% of the MTF population is ex hetero/lesbian and (rather) masculine, in comparison of 3% of the female population being lesbian.

And kind of often making a fuss about natural feminine/girly men....could it be envy or just homophobic behaviour?
As I've seen in my MTF community?
P.s: I could never ever have sex with a woman and the very idea of being a biological father is psychological damaging to me.

@MacKenzie:

thank you for your kind words!
But yes, I have a few very close MTF friends who were feminine before transition and are married to men.

We've 'selected' one another for that reason, always been natural feminine.
We share a lot.

Dahlia, you're the one fussing about there being MTF's who were/are "very masculine, very manly men, fathers of multiple children". It doesn't matter if you couldn't believe it in your wildest dreams. The fact is, they do exist. And there's nothing wrong with that. You obvioiusly have a problem with those who don't share the same experience as you. But that doesn't invalidate their feelings.

Quote from: tekla on April 19, 2012, 08:16:31 AM
Because how it really happened was that first hundreds, thousands, (and now in the Bay Area tens of thousands) of highly visible people just went out and about, lived their life, were themselves and in doing they they demonstrated the infinite spectrum and day in and day out made it harder for people to discriminate based on some singular uncharacteristic.

Exactly we are all different so no one person can stand for us all, but if we all are visible then it helps.

Quote from: tekla on April 19, 2012, 08:16:31 AM
After all, we are all just wandering.  Above someone said there were three paths - thus one-uppping Robert Frost - but there are not two, or even three paths, there are infinite paths.  If there are paths at all.  I kinda think we're all making it up as we go - everyone is at some stage, everyone moving from one point to another.  The andros have it right, we're all just wandering in the forest, at some strange edge, out past were we have stars to guide us.  Your way is just that, no more, no less.

I only said three paths because I was speaking of her, me, and the hypothetical person on the street.  As you said we are all different and have different paths.

Quote from: tekla on April 19, 2012, 08:16:31 AM
This... is reality, and not any dream-scenario is going to change any of it, not in my life time at any rate
I'm sorry, but the changes I've seen in my life, in terms of race, sexual equality and even in general acceptance of TG persons (and all sorts of other things, both good and bad) has been nothing short of constantly breath-taking.  Your looking at it all wrong.  Don't believe me?  (of course not, but that doubt is what makes you so cute)  Think about that guy in a dress in downtown Atlanta, and ask yourself 'What happens to him now, what happens 50 years ago?  What happens 20 years ago?  50-60 years ago, say 1960, I'd be shocked if he wasn't beat up and tied to the back of the car and taken for a scrape around town, or arrested, or put into a mental hospital, or all four.  Now he'll get laughed at by some I'd guess (though Atlanta bills itself as The City Too Busy To Hate), but that's better, that's a huge change, that's reality changing not just perceptions.

That is exactly what I'm trying to say.  IT DOES GET BETTER!

Reading some of these posts kind of makes me wonder if some formerly feminine boys transitioned to female just to make their lives easier, to fit in better? 

Heck, we could probably come up all sorts of stuff that means little to nothing to the rest of society if we put our minds to it. Either way, deciding who is valid, who's not, who has a right to be a woman. who is just fulfilling a fantasy, etc. is doing nothing to help us or our acceptance as a group.  I suppose though, to some, it feels good to try to become the oppressor, kind of like if you can't beat them, join them.  Who knows, I'm just trying to live my life in a little community where I have at least earned some respect, kindness and have even changed a few minds without having to put anyone else down or shouting at the world that I am this or that. I just am and most people accept me as I am. I don't share much about how I grew up because it doesn't matter for ->-bleeped-<- really. Its how you are, how you treat people and integrity that matters most.

And its tough typing on a laptop when your dog keeps putting his paw on the touchpad and moving the cursor around on you, lol.

Quote from: Jaime on April 19, 2012, 09:05:59 AM
I just am and most people accept me as I am. I don't share much about how I grew up because it doesn't matter for ->-bleeped-<- really. Its how you are, how you treat people and integrity that matters most.

If the +1 button was working I would be pressing it. Well said Jaime

Quote from: Dahlia on April 19, 2012, 08:26:16 AM
Not exactly. I'm not married to a woman and I'm not a father.
Which are ingredients for a -former- completely normal life where no one frowns upon you.

I grew up as a feminine child, adolescent, adult and no, there was no way to hide my femininety and yes, that made my (early) life a living hell.

It took me a veeeeeeery long time to shed my inferiority complexes about being different and being treated accordingly.

Which, thank god, doesn't happen to me anymore these days.

But I could never, ever in my early living hell life have imagined that very masculine, very manly men, fathers of multiple children can turn out to be MTF.
Not even in my wildest dreams.

It amazes me to this very day that 85% of the MTF population is ex hetero/lesbian and (rather) masculine, in comparison of 3% of the female population being lesbian.

And kind of often making a fuss about natural feminine/girly men....could it be envy or just homophobic behaviour?
As I've seen in my MTF community?
P.s: I could never ever have sex with a woman and the very idea of being a biological father is psychological damaging to me.

Assume much do you?  Just because I am a lesbian doesn't mean I wasn't ridiculed as a child.  Why do you assume I was ultra-masculine?  And it isn't just me, look above at Sarah's post.  She isn't straight (based on past comments and I'm sorry if I'm wrong), but she also was feminine as a child.

I came out to my (grand) parents before Kindergarten.  I quickly learned the mentally and physically painful lesson to never speak of it to them again.  Although I knew better than to talk about my "pee-digger" I spent hours using it to try to dig out the hole so that it could fall off.  At least until I was painfully taught to not do that either.  I suppose I imagined all the people that thought I was a "->-bleeped-<-" and a handful of boys that tried to court me.  I just imagined what happened when my bio father thought a boy was going to kiss me.  I only imagined being chased with the other girls through farm fields by boys with snakes because I was terrified of them.  I only imagined my bio-father destroying one of my science experiments because I used butterflies and that was too "girly".  The only reason I was not beaten at grade/middle school was because my aunt worked there.  I only imagined all the ridicule at Church camps because I wasn't hairy there until very late and wasn't a big stud like they claimed.  I only imagined the mockery at Church when we were prepping for a Christmas cantata and I was able to sing the girls part because my voice never really broke severely.  And then in high school I was one of the academics and was every teacher's pet and I was too visible to hurt.  It of course didn't stop them all from assuming I was gay.  I had a girl once tell me that she loved anal sex and it was ok if I did too, that I could trust her and come out as gay.  No it didn't really traumatize me when I had to take swimming and couldn't wear something on my chest and had to change in front of all the boys.  No I didn't hurry out of there because I was threatened daily that I might "slip" and bust open my head because I was looking at them (when I never was).

Aside from 1 person for a few months in high school I didn't date at all until grad school.  And that was really a total misunderstand on her part of something I said and I felt I was supposed to honor it even though she misunderstood.  I only dated in grad school because my family set me up and told me I had to do it to dispel the gay rumors.  Luckily we actually clicked and will be celebrating our 15th anniversary this June 1st.  Ironically my friends told me they were surprised to see me marry a woman and her friends told her they were surprised to see her marry a man.  On our wedding night I couldn't use that part and instead used the much more comfortable hands and mouth.  We actually bought how to books because we didn't think we were doing it right because it never felt right for me.  When she decided she was ready for children I did my part because it was what I was supposed to do.  I do love them very much and don't regret that at all, but that doesn't mean I was a sex fiend.  When I was still partly under my family's control we had our son enrolled in TeeBall.  One of the coaches had gone to high school with me and was SHOCKED to see I was married and had a child.  BTW for the ball practice at home, it was Shannon that did it for him because I throw like a girl to quote my aunt.

We are all different and no one should be judging us.

I'm sorry, its obvious that you all hate each other and will never come to a peaceful understanding of anyone elses opinion other than your own (which ever side your on).

This thread is a fruitless endevor and will lead to nothing more than more name calling and bitchiness.

It is Locked.

The civil discussion ended some time ago and many posts in this thread violate this basic rule.

Quote from: Susan on July 27, 2006, 07:45:44 PM
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:

• Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
• Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

I bolded part of the above rule for emphasis.

To be sure, state what you believe. Just do it in a polite and mature manner. Condescension is not necessary or welcome.