Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I just joined this group. The first time I've done anything like this. I'm not sure I belong.

I mean, I'm male. I never thought I was anything else. I watch football, lift weights, think my wife is sexy, etc.

But...

I only seem to enjoy books, movies, and songs by and for women. All of my close friends are women and it's been that way all my adult life. I am much more comfortable in the company of women than I am with men. When I share my feelings about just about anything with men, they always seem uncomfortable, whereas women seem perfectly at ease with my manner of relating. I think if I had life to do over again and I could choose a side, I'd want to be a woman.

When I was a boy, I was teased a lot about my taste in music and TV shows. I was baffled at the time, but I realize now that they were, by and large, more of interest to girls than boys.

I don't fit the typical mold of a transsexual. Would you all be comfortable having me be part of your discussion?

Always comfortable. Take all sorts round here.

What's changed recently to make you search out sites like this?

My feeling is that anyone who has questions about gender is welcome.

AG, you will find your own way in time.  Welcome from southern California.

This will probably make people mad at me, but personal, I would feel very uncomfortable.
You said yourself you are male. Then you list a lot of random things that have nothing what-so-ever to do with what gender you are. That makes me very confused and therefore uncomfortable and defensive. Although you did say you would be like to be a woman in another life, you did not say why and that statement implies that you do not feel female in this life. Based on what you have said, I would feel comfortable if you called yourself a cisgender ally, but I would feel very uncomfortable if you were to compare what you described to being transgendered and/or androgynous.
Of course, it could just turn out that all that was worded wrong.

@Pica Pica: In answer to your question why I'm looking now. I think I've finally gotten tired of my social situation. Forming friendships is so hard. I don't relate well to men, who tend to gravitate to me because I look like one of them and then are uncomfortable when they find our styles of relating so different. It's awkward with women, many of whom aren't used to making friends with men or who think of us as different from them.

@Edge: Thank you so much for your candor. Not sure what cisgender ally means, but I'll look it up. If it turns out that seems to fit my situation better I will consider moving on.

Quote from: agfrommd on April 23, 2012, 07:59:39 PM
@Pica Pica: In answer to your question why I'm looking now. I think I've finally gotten tired of my social situation. Forming friendships is so hard. I don't relate well to men, who tend to gravitate to me because I look like one of them and then are uncomfortable when they find our styles of relating so different. It's awkward with women, many of whom aren't used to making friends with men or who think of us as different from them.

@Edge: Thank you so much for your candor. Not sure what cisgender ally means, but I'll look it up. If it turns out that seems to fit my situation better I will consider moving on.

I understand, but disagree with Edge. Your post is the very definition of "questioning."  You may decide that you are not androgenous - and that's fine.

This is a support site.  You should feel free to discuss, interact, and seek advice.

Perhaps you simply more metro then androgenous and that's why people are unsure how to 'classify' you persay....but it should be whatever you are comfortable with, not those around you. After all, you are the subject here, not us.

@Jamie D: I can't tell you how good it was to read your post. I really don't know what label is appropriate (not sure the labels even mean much. They all seem to overlap in so many ways) but I think I'd like to accept the label of Androgyne and see how it fits. It feels better already. Much better than male-who's-disappointed-that-the-world-doesn't-treat-him-like-a-female, which seems to be the label I've been wearing for the past couple of decades.

It feels so-o-o wonderful to have a place I can say things like this. Thanks for being so welcoming.

Yes, you do belong here - like someone said you are questioning, and that's a good thing. This is a good place for questioning people.

Whether you'll stay here in our enchanted forest as a unicorn or move elsewhere as you learn about yourself - that's part of your journey; many others have spent time here and have moved on.... or stayed. We welcome all. There is no rush in this process.

Gender is a complex thing, and a social construct.  It's partly constructed from the things you mentioned.  It seems totally reasonable to question (though uncomfortable for many, because they think they will lose something if they even think about it).

I don't generally consider myself trans, except under the widest umbrella definition of the term.  I transgress against gender, or transcend gender, by being about 3/4 disconnected from masculinity and generally relating better to women than men.

Today I am thinking of myself as more or less agendered, or that "geek" is my gender.  Ask me tomorrow and it'll probably be smething else.

I'm sure you'll find common ground with folks here. :)

Hi Ag and welcome,google androgyneonline,or go through the links on the main page here.The information there really defines what being an androgyne and androgynous is,very well i think.You don`t have to look different to feel different, or be different.I hope this helpsxx.

Quote from: foosnark on April 24, 2012, 11:16:41 AM
Gender is a complex thing, and a social construct.

That is very insulting and invalidating. Gender identity is real, not an imaginary construct.

Quote from: Edge on April 24, 2012, 05:15:02 PM
Gender identity is real, not an imaginary construct.

It is not imaginary. It is a construct. Probably everything you think is a social construct because you've been trained since birth to perceive the world in the "correct" way. Gender is just one of the thinkings.

Quote from: Edge on April 24, 2012, 05:15:02 PM
That is very insulting and invalidating. Gender identity is real, not an imaginary construct.

Oh Edge, you are so right. There is something very tangible and definite about gender that resists our attempts to control and mold it.

But unfortunately my experience has been similar to Foosnark. It's almost impossible, no matter how hard I try, to get away from what society expects of each gender. I so wish I could make society's social definition of maleness expand to encompass my peculiar alchemy of male and female parts.

Male, female, transsexual or whatever, if someone is friendly, I feel more than comfortable to be in that company.
So Agfrommd, be welcome and make yourself at home.
It would be my pleasure to talk with you.

agfrommd, you most certainly are welcome here whether you turn out to be transgendered or not. I don't think you were trying to compare your experience to anyone else's - just the opposite.
I think a lot of people, male and female, are uncomfortable with society's rigid gender norms. And whether you turn out to be transgendered or androgyne or not, you're certainly welcome to explore your feelings with us.

I'm not sure sure why it's insulting.  I didn't say gender wasn't personally important to people, or that people are deluding themselves or anything like that.  Or that it's entirely determined by outside forces and people don't have their own gender identities.

A thought experiment: you were born aboard an alien spacecraft.  There are no other humans in your experience.  The aliens don't look like you, but know you are intelligent and teach you their language and treat you mostly with respect.  They don't have the concepts of masculinity or femininity, and so you've never heard of either.  Nobody ever told you about gender, gender roles, gender presentation, and so on.  Nobody has ever called you a boy or a girl, or told you you're not supposed to do certain things because of gender, or treated you with more toughness or gentleness, or more dominance or competitiveness, because of  gender.  So what is your gender identity?

If gender is not a social construct, why do gender roles and rules of presentation change so much as society changes?  Why do some societies have two genders, some three, some four, some more than that?  Why did transgender, as an identity, not exist before the 20th century, and genderqueer not exist until the last few decades?

I've said before that gender is like consciousness -- it isn't a thing that exists, but it's a thing you experience.  And it's a thing that is reinforced (or its wrong fit emphasized) by others, consciously and unconsciously.

Quote from: foosnark on April 25, 2012, 10:47:13 AM
I'm not sure sure why it's insulting.  I didn't say gender wasn't personally important to people, or that people are deluding themselves or anything like that.  Or that it's entirely determined by outside forces and people don't have their own gender identities.

A thought experiment: you were born aboard an alien spacecraft.  There are no other humans in your experience.  The aliens don't look like you, but know you are intelligent and teach you their language and treat you mostly with respect.  They don't have the concepts of masculinity or femininity, and so you've never heard of either.  Nobody ever told you about gender, gender roles, gender presentation, and so on.  Nobody has ever called you a boy or a girl, or told you you're not supposed to do certain things because of gender, or treated you with more toughness or gentleness, or more dominance or competitiveness, because of  gender.  So what is your gender identity?

If gender is not a social construct, why do gender roles and rules of presentation change so much as society changes?  Why do some societies have two genders, some three, some four, some more than that?  Why did transgender, as an identity, not exist before the 20th century, and genderqueer not exist until the last few decades?

I've said before that gender is like consciousness -- it isn't a thing that exists, but it's a thing you experience.  And it's a thing that is reinforced (or its wrong fit emphasized) by others, consciously and unconsciously.

So well put. I love your thought experiment.

I'd answer that there are three concepts here:
Gender: The geometry of your anatomy.
Gender Role: How you participate in society. May or may not have anything to do with your gender.
Gender Identity: Which gender role you identify with.

Gender is not a social construct. Gender identity is for some, while for others it may be fixed. Gender roles are definitely a social construct. To reference your thought experiment, they are often due to necessity.

I definitely play the role of the traditional father in my family. I married a very nurturing woman who gets flustered when she has to enforce discipline. It could easily have gone the other way. If I'd married a very assertive woman, I could have been just as happy accepting the more nurturing role. (Though I *am* a male. I probably wouldn't have been a natural at it.)

On your fictitious spacecraft, if the aliens seemed to be threatening and I needed to defend myself, I might take a traditional male role (and probably get my @$$ kicked.) If one of them had a sore throat I would probably take a traditional female role and make them alien-style chicken soup.

Quote from: agfrommd on April 23, 2012, 05:48:07 PM
I just joined this group. The first time I've done anything like this. I'm not sure I belong.

I mean, I'm male. I never thought I was anything else. I watch football, lift weights, think my wife is sexy, etc.

But...

I only seem to enjoy books, movies, and songs by and for women. All of my close friends are women and it's been that way all my adult life. I am much more comfortable in the company of women than I am with men. When I share my feelings about just about anything with men, they always seem uncomfortable, whereas women seem perfectly at ease with my manner of relating. I think if I had life to do over again and I could choose a side, I'd want to be a woman.

When I was a boy, I was teased a lot about my taste in music and TV shows. I was baffled at the time, but I realize now that they were, by and large, more of interest to girls than boys.

I don't fit the typical mold of a transsexual. Would you all be comfortable having me be part of your discussion?

Well.......if this were another area in these forums and if you had a definite label in mind  for yourself, such transgender, there are questions I might ask you, such as: when you lift weights what is your physical ideal (if you have one), what kind a clothes do you like, who are your role models/heroes, etc.  However, it would be difficult for me to understand how you could possibly dis-belong is this particular section of these forums. 

As I have stated/questioned elsewhere, it is human nature (isn't it?) for us to question ourselves.  How many decisions and choices do we make without some self-questioning afterward--especially the major ones?

The only ways that I can think of that you would be totally invalid here would be if you were being false and/or came here for malicious reasons.

It sounds to me like you're trying to figure it all it out.  I believe this is a good a place as any for you to seek assistance in doing this.  Someone please do correct me if I am indeed wrong; but this is (among other things) a sounding board, isn't it?

Quote from: foosnark on April 25, 2012, 10:47:13 AM
I'm not sure sure why it's insulting.  I didn't say gender wasn't personally important to people, or that people are deluding themselves or anything like that.  Or that it's entirely determined by outside forces and people don't have their own gender identities.

A thought experiment: you were born aboard an alien spacecraft.  There are no other humans in your experience.  The aliens don't look like you, but know you are intelligent and teach you their language and treat you mostly with respect.  They don't have the concepts of masculinity or femininity, and so you've never heard of either.  Nobody ever told you about gender, gender roles, gender presentation, and so on.  Nobody has ever called you a boy or a girl, or told you you're not supposed to do certain things because of gender, or treated you with more toughness or gentleness, or more dominance or competitiveness, because of  gender.  So what is your gender identity?

If gender is not a social construct, why do gender roles and rules of presentation change so much as society changes?  Why do some societies have two genders, some three, some four, some more than that?  Why did transgender, as an identity, not exist before the 20th century, and genderqueer not exist until the last few decades?

I've said before that gender is like consciousness -- it isn't a thing that exists, but it's a thing you experience.  And it's a thing that is reinforced (or its wrong fit emphasized) by others, consciously and unconsciously.

This is precisely the premise of RA Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land". The main character Michael Valentine Smith was born to human parents who were part of an expedition to Mars and died shortly after he was born. He was raised by the "martian civilization" and completely identified with their culture in which they had 3 (maybe 4, been a while since I read it) genders. Put aside our present knowledge of Mars and just go with the premise. It's really an amazing look at how fear of the unknown shapes our prejudice, societal conventions, sexual mores and cultural constructs, and how they all interact. For me, it's all the more amazing since it was written by an arch-conservative at time when "transgender" was barely on the cultural horizon. For those who like science fiction, it's a fun, short, easy read.

Quote from: foosnark on April 25, 2012, 10:47:13 AM
Why did transgender, as an identity, not exist before the 20th century, and genderqueer not exist until the last few decades?

All this says is that we didn't used to have language to describe those identities. Or are you suggesting that the identities exist now only because we invented words for them? That seems a bit circular.

And honestly I'm the wrong person to respond to this, but a lot of people feel very strongly that their gender identity is intrinsic and fixed at birth - to the extent that they seek out medical intervention for their bodies as a reasonable solution. In contrast, efforts to alter someone's gender identity via socialization have been shockingly and painfully unsuccessful.

I'm kind of mind blown that you posted this on a trans forum, frankly. You do know that a similar "thought experiment" was done, right? A little boy was raised as a little girl. The result? David Reimer.

Actually trans people period are kind of proof that gender identity is innate at least to some degree. So confused by you right now... Are we using language to mean different things here?

I am more and more convinced that gender is primarily psycho-social than innate or biological, although has a biological base.

To say something is social is not to say it is not important. I think biology and genetics are given far more credit for the minutiae of human lives and I think it's dangerous, that to lay everything on biology is to make people powerless against them.

Also - I think it would be astonishing not to discuss the idea that gender is social or psychological. If this is a trans site than all talk about gender should be allowed. Especially in the androgyne section where everything is a little more wibbly.

There is a pretty huge difference between suggesting gender is primarily social, and suggesting gender is entirely social...

Even if it were entirely social, I don't think that makes much difference, we are social creatures after all.

(However, the existence of two sexes and a general pan-global tendency towards having notions of gender suggest that there must be some biological base to me, but I digress).

Quote from: Pica Pica on April 28, 2012, 02:58:50 PM
Even if it were entirely social, I don't think that makes much difference, we are social creatures after all.

(However, the existence of two sexes and a general pan-global tendency towards having notions of gender suggest that there must be some biological base to me, but I digress).

If it's entirely social, we are blank slates... which means you can successfully raise a boy as a girl, or rather that there is no such thing as a boy or a girl at birth beyond external physical characteristics. Which is the theory behind doctors "correcting" intersex births, or Dr. Money's experiment. Further it suggests that socialization can alter identity, leading to things like ongoing reparative therapy of trans kids. So... I'd say it kinda does make a difference when you get past theory and into how the theory is applied and the kind of horrific results of that.

Edit: Great, the girl without a gender identity is arguing in favour of its existence. Again. I guess I really want to believe in it. Even if I can't feel it myself. At least I get points for irony.

Quote from: Sarah7 on April 28, 2012, 03:09:06 PM
Edit: Great, the girl without a gender identity is arguing in favour of its existence. Again. I guess I really want to believe in it. Even if I can't feel it myself. At least I get points for irony.

I believe in the existence of not having a definable gender identity.

Z

Quote from: Sarah7 on April 28, 2012, 03:09:06 PM
If it's entirely social, we are blank slates... which means you can successfully raise a boy as a girl, or rather that there is no such thing as a boy or a girl at birth beyond external physical characteristics.

Fortunately human beings are hugely variant. There are so many varieties and dimension in the human condition that it is virtually impossible to say anything definite that would apply to everyone.

Is it possible that some people's gender identity (or genderqueerness) is with them at birth, while others arrive as a reaction to their social situation?