Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I... FEEL feminine, and like some feminine things but that doesn't change the other things I like, and what I'm interested in. I like motor racing, guns, aviation, space ships, science... boy things.  :-\

I can't help but feel that my interests... somehow invalidate my feminity. Like, if I'm going to identify as trans, I shouldn't enjoy those things. People won't take my gender identity seriously either I feel, knowing how I am and what I like.

Hmmmm, I like those things also and I'm a girl. I wonder how would:

Danica Patrick, Julie Golob, Sally Ride or Dorothy Hodgkin

feel about that statement boy things?

A lot of hobbies that were once seen as "male" are now sort of "gender neutral"

I have been around aircraft and motorcycles my whole life, I have seen many many girls and women succeed in both those fields! I also like shooting and have a range on my property, both my daughters were raised to shoot and to respect/enjoy firearms :)

Some of the best aerobatic pilots...such as patty Wagstaff and others are at the top of what some ppl think as a mans game...My flight instructor friend Charlotte is such a good pilot she now flies high level corporate jets.

a lot of females just dont sit at home cooking pot roast for their family anymore, this is not the fifty's!   Its our world now! and the public is getting used to seeing women in sports, male dominated fields and hobbies, politics...etc.

enjoy!!! :)

I race dirt bikes, shoot big guns, do martial arts, fix cars and appliances, climb rocks and trees, innovates and invents, cook a storm, mend cuts and scraps and medicates, ironsout (not just shirts), gives hair cuts and make ups, cleans and disinfects, provides educational, psychological, physical advice, lends money, gives hugs and kisses, helps with homeworks, shops for unmentionables, likes singing and dancing, do comedy, prays often, cheer leads, works two jobs, all of that with a smile in my face..

I smell like a rose and I do not snore....I am wonder woman

I'm a girl, so everything I do is a "girl thing."

I think I would still be into every thing I am now if my sex was female, just that I wouldn't have had as many hobbies I never allowed myself to get into because of my crippling fear of being discovered when I was younger.

I was thinking about this very thing a few hours ago while jumping on my trampoline, I don't want to change who I am, I want to become who I am. x3 So take pride in what society has conditioned you to believe are "boy" hobbies, because plenty of girls have them too.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wrc.com%2Fcontent%2Fdrivteam%2F660%2F120202_Cookslarge.jpg&hash=11eb275e87a0af1758ad5038672c9dbcfb7b1a36)

Louise Cook. Rally car driver.

Her site. (http://www.cutecookie.co.uk/)

'Nuff said. :)

Be you. Whoever that is.

i enjoy some male things like playing video games.

I absolutely love sci-fi. As you can see by my name.

Though I never had an interest in guy stuff, I do enjoy a fast car. And making it go fast.

Quote from: Kelly-087 on May 01, 2012, 12:11:59 PM
i enjoy some male things like playing video games.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp (http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp)

• The average gamer is 37 years old and has been playing for 12 years.


• Eighty-two percent of gamers are 18 years of age or older.


• Forty-two percent of all players are women and women over 18 years of age are one of the industry's fastest growing demographics.


• Today, adult women represent a greater portion of the game-playing population (37 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (13 percent)

Not really what I'd call an entirely male pursuit. :)

I'm a pilot too, can race cars in my sleep (been driving since I was 8 as did my sisters), I am a crack shot in video games... and I can fix pracically anything...

I completely agree that the reason women don't do certain things is not because they can't, but society pressures and steers them toward other things.

Its very frustrating too, for example now when I go into the auto parts store I'm automatically treated as an idiot...even though I know as much or more than the clerk! That treatment is an easy out for lots of girls to just not try or care.

There's no reason a man can't be a master makeup artist any more than a woman can't be a master mechanic. I say keep your male-sounding hobbies and just proudly have a little tomboy in ya!!

Yep...I taught my two daughters a lot about cars, mechanics, aircraft and all sorts of things they will need to know so they wont have to depend on a "man" to do it for them ;)

they are 29 and 30yo, very very pretty and have made more than one auto parts guy or hardware clerk feel like a total heel for miss judging and trying to mislead them, lol

neither of them do "traditional" girl hobbies at all, and they aren't really "tomboyish" either...(nuthin at all wrong with that though;) ) I'm quite proud of them for being so versatile :)

Quote from: Michelle G on January 16, 1970, 05:04:56 AM
They are 29 and 30yo, very very pretty and have made more than one auto parts guy or hardware clerk feel like a total heel for miss judging and trying to mislead the...,  I'm quite proud of them for being so versatile :)

I must say I am proud that you raised your daughters not to be helpless damsels in distress. Gosh that gets old! And I LOVE the bit about the clerks misleading them haha suckers I'd love to see their faces when they realise your kids aren't dummies!!

transphobic lesbians pull the 'you like guy stuff so you are just a pervy CD/TV' about TS who like cars and guns but these transphobes can't or won't understand that having to live male in youth does expose a person to stereotype pastimes and interests.

the same transphobes perhaps never look on youtube to see the many GGs who are very knowledgeable about cars, guns, planes, science etc...and as for all the GG army/navy/airforce GGs? Maybe the transphobes just write those GGs off as being mentally ill women?

QuoteI must say I am proud that you raised your daughters not to be helpless damsels in distress. Gosh that gets old! And I LOVE the bit about the clerks misleading them haha suckers I'd love to see their faces when they realise your kids aren't dummies!!

Those two are so proud of that!! they always tell me when that happens...it always makes them so happy to be able to shut down those narrow minded guys flat in their tracks, lol

something to think about...of course when I was young my father, uncle and grandfather would teach me "guy stuff" but they also included my sis who is only two years younger, she learned "guy stuff" as well and I guess thats why her and and I are so close...as kids we would play with dolls in the morning and trucks on the dirt pile all afternoon...when the folks were gone she would dress me up in her cute things just for kicks using me to see how stuff looks on "her"...all these years later I havent come out to her yet,,,someday though I will.

Quote from: Trixie on May 01, 2012, 11:12:26 AM... motor racing, guns, aviation, space ships, science...

that pretty much describes one of my exs likes, whos doing a degree in aeronautics or somthing, and another of my friends plays video games, collects transfomer models and is starting learing D&D (both GG, if that wasnt implied heavily enough). 

[insert something about stereotypes usually being wrong here]

IMO... it's normal for a girl to have a few masculine interests but mostly feminine interests, and the opposite for a guy.

Just because a girl is a race car driver doesn't mean she also ignores her fashion and appearance, dates women and does wood carving or something.

Usually cis females with mostly masculine interests are not strongly female identified, in my experience. You occasionally see girls who say "no I don't like girl things at all, I never did" and usually they end that paragraph with "I don't really feel like a woman or understand other women."

And I'm NOT trying to argue here. I don't wanna do that. I just don't understand why people are trying to morph masculine hobbies into feminine ones because it suits them to do that. Just because 1 cis girl somewhere in the world happens to like a hobby doesn't suddenly make it a not masculine hobby. There actually is such a thing as masculine and feminine hobbies.  :)

I'm a dude and I like knitting, baking, and adorable animals. I spent my internet time looking at pictures of kittens and squeal in a completely manly fashion. I feel no doubt that I am a guy. My tiny adorable grandmother loves her guns and NASCAR. Gendering hobbies and interests is silly. If you like something, awesome. I say, don't worry about it.

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 01, 2012, 11:58:02 AM
I'm a girl, so everything I do is a "girl thing."

It's your 'thang'
do whatcha wanna do

Quote from: Ayden on May 01, 2012, 03:09:05 PM
I'm a dude and I like knitting, baking, and adorable animals. I spent my internet time looking at pictures of kittens and squeal in a completely manly fashion. I feel no doubt that I am a guy. My tiny adorable grandmother loves her guns and NASCAR. Gendering hobbies and interests is silly. If you like something, awesome. I say, don't worry about it.

+1

The brainwashing starts before we're even conscious. I forgot to add I sometimes trawl youtube to watch cute kittens and animals, and cry watching chick flicks. Maybe, I am a woman after all. Phew.

Quote from: Trixie on May 01, 2012, 11:12:26 AM
I... FEEL feminine, and like some feminine things but that doesn't change the other things I like, and what I'm interested in. I like motor racing, guns, aviation, space ships, science... boy things.  :-\

I can't help but feel that my interests... somehow invalidate my feminity. Like, if I'm going to identify as trans, I shouldn't enjoy those things. People won't take my gender identity seriously either I feel, knowing how I am and what I like.

it doesn't make you less female or transgender for that matter. i consider myself very feminine, but i never wear dresses, i play video games, and i'm not all talkative like people say a woman "should be," and i still wear the same white nike sneakers since i have big feet and it's just a pain to find women's shoes that will fit. oh well, i'm not gonna change who i am just to fit some arbitrary mold.  i don't need to score 100% on some gendered litmus test to be who i already know i am.

Lol, you should see my local women's rugby team on a girl's night out. I'd love to see anyone try to tell them they're not female identified. Bring a gumshield.

You'd never guess they spend their free time trying to piledrive other women into the ground... umm... I mean run around with an odd shaped ball? ;D

I guess some folks need to gender everything because of the whole "you are what you do" mindset. I don't know why there has to be a line in the sand with stuff segregated on either side of it, and if you cross that line then it somehow has implications on other stuff totally unrelated.

Here's something interesting:

Men beat stress with flower arrangement (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcIMhUfrfc8#)

Quote from: lilacwoman on May 01, 2012, 01:30:23 PM
transphobic lesbians pull the 'you like guy stuff so you are just a pervy CD/TV' about TS who like cars and guns but these transphobes can't or won't understand that having to live male in youth does expose a person to stereotype pastimes and interests.

QuoteI like guns

QuoteI like shooting big guns

Quotewon't understand that having to live male in youth does expose a person to stereotype pastimes and interests

BS.That sounds like a silly excuse for liking masculine things by nature.  Being interested in (big) gunplay and shooting is  a typical (American) masculine interest, and a very agressive and violent one at that.

It's almost the same nonsense Annah wrote a couple of days ago; 'being raised into finding women sexually attractive' as to explain why the overwhelming majority of MTF is lesbian.
If that were true  gay or bisexual men simply wouldn't exist.

I'm from an apart from my mother all male household. My father and  4 brothers exposed me constantly to stereotypical masculine pastimes and interests.
Yet I developed stereotype feminine pastime and interests.

Of course my very masculine father and brothers constantly tried to 'correct' me but to no avail.

There is something like a (very) masculine nature or a (very) feminine nature in people.

And no, I never wear dresses or skirts and yes, I wear my hair short ala Halle Berry. With large hoop earrings, eye make up and lipstick.
And I hate videogames, soccer, baseball, motorcycles, racecars and weapons.

Quote from: Dahlia on May 01, 2012, 04:01:46 PM
BS.That sounds like a silly excuse for liking masculine things by nature.  Being interested in (big) gunplay and shooting is  a typical (American) masculine interest, and a very agressive and violent one at that.

It's almost the same nonsense Annah wrote a couple of days ago; 'being raised into finding women sexually attractive' as to explain why the overwhelming majority of MTF is lesbian.
If that were true  gay or bisexual men simply wouldn't exist.

I'm from an apart from my mother all male household. My father and  4 brothers exposed me constantly to stereotypical masculine pastimes and interests.
Yet I developed stereotype feminine pastime and interests.

Of course my very masculine father and brothers constantly tried to 'correct' me but to no avail.

There is something like a (very) masculine nature or a (very) feminine nature in people.

And no, I never wear dresses or skirts and yes, I wear my hair short ala Halle Berry. With large hoop earrings, eye make up and lipstick.
And I hate videogames, soccer, baseball, motorcycles, racecars and weapons.

Yeah this I guess....

I am happy to live and let live but I feel kinda written off when people say they were raised into masculine interests like they wouldn't have otherwise liked them, when I was raised being pressured into masculine interests but refused to do them and still developed mainly feminine ones instead.

Quote from: Dahlia on May 01, 2012, 04:01:46 PM
There is something like a (very) masculine nature or a (very) feminine nature in people.

Maybe, but the emboldened word is the key. People. Men or women can have either, or somewhere inbetween. A balance of Yin and Yang.

Quote from: Dahlia on May 01, 2012, 04:01:46 PM
And I hate videogames, soccer, baseball, motorcycles, racecars and weapons.

My hairdresser hates the same things. Yet he identifies very strongly as a man. And he's actually quite proud of not fitting any of the stereotypes and living his life to his own rules. The last time I had my hair trimmed we talked for like two hours about all kinds of cool stuff. He's very new age, into crystals and spiritualism. He's also into fashion. He said he always wanted to be a designer but was never any good at drawing. And god knows what kind of skin-care regime he has but he told me how old he was and I swear to god that he looks at least 20 years younger than his age. I think he bathes in the blood of virgins or something.

He's a happily involved gay man, I've met his partner. And he's pretty awesome, to be honest. As a role model for just being yourself, he's right up there.

So I'm not entirely sure what your point is. ??? You like what you like, and don't like what you don't like, that's cool. So does everyone else.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 01, 2012, 04:45:10 PM

He's a happily involved gay man, I've met his partner. And he's pretty awesome, to be honest.

A happily involved gay man is something completely different from a MTF interested in big gun shooting amongst other (very) masculine things.
Worlds apart don't you think?

To say that one's culture does not affect who they became is, to me, hogwash. That one is exposed to particular elements due to their culture, and in this case cultural gender ideals, absolutely has to increase the likelihood of an individual liking said element

For example, let's use the example that Americans love guns...well they are exposed to guns and are thus more likely to find them acceptable. Men may be exposed more to Rugby or weightlifting, thus increasing the probability that a male will adopt those as hobbies. Conversely there are people who unconsciously refuse to adopt a preference for something simply because it is a part of a culture they hate (ie people of other cultures may hate guns simply because Americans like them...I have seen this one personally.)

It only makes sense that one is more likely to find an eventual attraction toward the things to which they are exposed. Even ideas of good and evil are culturally subjective. It's cultural anthropology at work...and human psychology aswell...( see the "mere exposure effect" (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere-exposure_effect#section_3)

I may not like it, or think it ideal...but our respective cultural exposures have a massive effect on who we are, and who we may become!

Quote from: pretty on May 01, 2012, 04:33:25 PM
Yeah this I guess....

I am happy to live and let live but I feel kinda written off when people say they were raised into masculine interests like they wouldn't have otherwise liked them, when I was raised being pressured into masculine interests but refused to do them and still developed mainly feminine ones instead.

Well, some people may not be particularly driven to masculine or feminine things but fall into them by default. If a child doesn't have a particular preference, it's more easy for her to just do what her friends are into. And since boys are usually discouraged from pursuing 'girly' pastimes, he'd likely only do it if he was passionate about the activity.
At a time when fitting in is such a priority, a lot of kids just go with the flow.

Thank you everyone. It helps... I was being silly.

Quote from: Dahlia on May 01, 2012, 04:01:46 PM
BS.That sounds like a silly excuse for liking masculine things by nature.  Being interested in (big) gunplay and shooting is  a typical (American) masculine interest, and a very agressive and violent one at that.

It's almost the same nonsense Annah wrote a couple of days ago; 'being raised into finding women sexually attractive' as to explain why the overwhelming majority of MTF is lesbian.
If that were true  gay or bisexual men simply wouldn't exist.

I'm from an apart from my mother all male household. My father and  4 brothers exposed me constantly to stereotypical masculine pastimes and interests.
Yet I developed stereotype feminine pastime and interests.

Of course my very masculine father and brothers constantly tried to 'correct' me but to no avail.

There is something like a (very) masculine nature or a (very) feminine nature in people.

And no, I never wear dresses or skirts and yes, I wear my hair short ala Halle Berry. With large hoop earrings, eye make up and lipstick.
And I hate videogames, soccer, baseball, motorcycles, racecars and weapons.

Wait, I'm really not sure what your point is.  :-\ Should I NOT like those things?

Quote from: pretty on May 01, 2012, 04:33:25 PM
I am happy to live and let live but I feel kinda written off when people say they were raised into masculine interests like they wouldn't have otherwise liked them, when I was raised being pressured into masculine interests but refused to do them and still developed mainly feminine ones instead.

Someone saying that they have hobby X and still feel feminine does not impact you at all.  But on the other hand saying that hobby X means you aren't a woman does impact many people.

There is NO one size fits all.  I'm sorry you feel that someone not specifically following your path is writing you off, but your path is not the only one.

Quote from: Forum Admin on May 01, 2012, 05:05:40 PM
Well, some people may not be particularly driven to masculine or feminine things but fall into them by default. If a child doesn't have a particular preference, it's more easy for her to just do what her friends are into. And since boys are usually discouraged from pursuing 'girly' pastimes, he'd likely only do it if he was passionate about the activity.
At a time when fitting in is such a priority, a lot of kids just go with the flow.

If someone had no preference for masculine or feminine, what would be the point of transitioning though?  :-\

I'm sorry I just never get it  ???. People talk about their internal voice or something even if they lived successfully as their birth sex.  But if you don't even care about gendered things, what's the point of changing your gender presentation?

Quote from: Jeneva on May 01, 2012, 05:16:41 PM
Someone saying that they have hobby X and still feel feminine does not impact you at all.  But on the other hand saying that hobby X means you aren't a woman does impact many people.

There is NO one size fits all.  I'm sorry you feel that someone not specifically following your path is writing you off, but your path is not the only one.

Well, maybe it's gonna sound shocking, but it doesn't really matter to me if someone (including myself) is a woman or not  :). Because once that becomes about something other than birth sex it is totally up to each individual what constitutes being a woman.

I mean, "woman" and "man" are just words to classify. They don't really mean much. Masculinity and femininity are what you really see in the real world. Those are the vibes that a person gives off. They're what really engenders what we (and especially the collective we) think of as men and women. So even if you say that someone IS a woman, and even if that's totally fair and true by some standard, I don't feel like it is very meaningful if they just don't come off as a woman to people. I'm not saying that like it's supposed to be insulting or something. People just either are more masculine or more feminine. But yeah, personally, I place value in the real substance of who someone is and not what they're called. It's not to be mean and it's not to be intolerant. I just can't willfully replace my perceptions of reality however I wish.

Quote from: Dahlia on May 01, 2012, 04:52:30 PM
A happily involved gay man is something completely different from a MTF interested in big gun shooting amongst other (very) masculine things.
Worlds apart don't you think?

Not really. He's just living his life. Same way everyone else tries to do. Who am I, or you, or anyone for that matter, to judge?

But anyway, I use 'MtF' as an adjective, not a noun. I see the women here as women first, and a term used to describe someone undergoing transition second. So "a woman interested in big gun shooting", as far as I'm concerned, whatever tickles your pickle. Same goes for any other activity they may take an interest in. Doesn't make them any less of a woman. Heck there are enough women in the armed forces who get a kick out of driving tanks and shooting very big guns. Point is, you live your life doing what makes you happy, what you find satisfaction in. I don't know, it seems like a weird form of sexism to say that women shouldn't do this or that because it's just not 'proper' or 'ladylike' or whatever. People are free to do whatever they want, within the laws of the land.

That some women like to do those things doesn't invalidate their womanhood any more than my hairdresser's hobbies and interests invalidates his manhood.

Quote from: pretty on May 01, 2012, 05:23:31 PM
I mean, "woman" and "man" are just words to classify. They don't really mean much. Masculinity and femininity are what you really see in the real world. Those are the vibes that a person gives off. They're what really engenders what we (and especially the collective we) think of as men and women. So even if you say that someone IS a woman, and even if that's totally fair and true by some standard, I don't feel like it is very meaningful if they just don't come off as a woman to people. I'm not saying that like it's supposed to be insulting or something. People just either are more masculine or more feminine. But yeah, personally, I place value in the real substance of who someone is and not what they're called. It's not to be mean and it's not to be intolerant. I just can't willfully replace my perceptions of reality however I wish.

And so you see in the real world what their private hobbies are?  Or who they prefer for romantic relationships?

Let's just take a woman in the grocery store or running errands around town by herself.  She happens to be trans.  How do you know what her hobbies are?  How do you know if is straight or lesbian?  Don't you see how these are just part of her character and don't define her as masculine or feminine?

Quote from: pretty on May 01, 2012, 05:23:31 PM
If someone had no preference for masculine or feminine, what would be the point of transitioning though?  :-\

I'm sorry I just never get it  ???. People talk about their internal voice or something even if they lived successfully as their birth sex.  But if you don't even care about gendered things, what's the point of changing your gender presentation?

Well, maybe it's gonna sound shocking, but it doesn't really matter to me if someone (including myself) is a woman or not  :). Because once that becomes about something other than birth sex it is totally up to each individual what constitutes being a woman.

I mean, "woman" and "man" are just words to classify. They don't really mean much. Masculinity and femininity are what you really see in the real world. Those are the vibes that a person gives off. They're what really engenders what we (and especially the collective we) think of as men and women. So even if you say that someone IS a woman, and even if that's totally fair and true by some standard, I don't feel like it is very meaningful if they just don't come off as a woman to people. I'm not saying that like it's supposed to be insulting or something. People just either are more masculine or more feminine. But yeah, personally, I place value in the real substance of who someone is and not what they're called. It's not to be mean and it's not to be intolerant. I just can't willfully replace my perceptions of reality however I wish.

so you should transition just so you can do things that are gendered the opposite of your birth sex? that seems to be what you're saying, that there is no other reason to -  'no point'. 

its nature vs nurture, maybe your gender identity can leaveyou more predisposed to some things, but then so can your upbringing, just like with height, weight and other things like that.  you cant dismiss one and not the other, they are both important factors.

Quote from: pretty on May 01, 2012, 05:23:31 PM
If someone had no preference for masculine or feminine, what would be the point of transitioning though?  :-\

I'm sorry I just never get it  ???. People talk about their internal voice or something even if they lived successfully as their birth sex.  But if you don't even care about gendered things, what's the point of changing your gender presentation?

To feel comfortable in your own skin and stop thinking about gender long enough to be able to actually get on with your life, I guess. For a lot of people there's a very tangible physical incongruency. It's not about needing to have a 'masculine' or 'feminine' approach to life. It's just about having the body that matches the image in your head when you close your eyes, and every time you look in the mirror for a few seconds before it fades away and you're left with the uncomfortable, and often painful realisation of what you're actually faced with.

I don't know if you've ever felt dysphoria with your body, or your genitalia, but it's a very real feeling, and it's quite seperate from whether you're into 'girly' things or not. Sometimes it really is as simple as rearranging anatomy to fall into line with your own mental self-image. Not about acting like a woman according to societal stereotypes or gender roles, but just being yourself and living your life, free from the jarring physical sensations of having the wrong anatomical organs.

This is why I asked the question before about living your life in a place where you had no one to present to. Where there was no one to prove that you are a woman to, no one to treat you as such, and you're free to live your life the way that feels natural. Would you still go through with it? For a lot of people, the answer is 'yes', because whether other people are around or not, their bodies still feel horribly wrong and need to be corrected. It's not about whether other people see them as a woman, but whether they themselves feel like one.

Sometimes people just want bodies which fit them, even if that doesn't fit in with everyone else's preconceptions. That doesn't make it wrong.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 01, 2012, 05:54:01 PM
To feel comfortable in your own skin and stop thinking about gender long enough to be able to actually get on with your life, I guess. For a lot of people there's a very tangible physical incongruency. It's not about needing to have a 'masculine' or 'feminine' approach to life. It's just about having the body that matches the image in your head when you close your eyes, and every time you look in the mirror for a few seconds before it fades away and you're left with the uncomfortable, and often painful realisation of what you're actually faced with.

Well, honestly what you described sounds to me like BDD and not GID.  :-X (BDD is a serious problem too)

I do get depressed about my body. But that's for reasons that are absolutely intertwined with my social presentation and with relating to others, expressing myself and being myself outwardly. There's no way I could separate them or isolate my need to transition as being just "wanting the right body." So the desert island example makes no sense to me. It's a lot more than that.

QuoteThis is why I asked the question before about living your life in a place where you had no one to present to. Where there was no one to prove that you are a woman to, no one to treat you as such, and you're free to live your life the way that feels natural. Would you still go through with it? For a lot of people, the answer is 'yes', because whether other people are around or not, their bodies still feel horribly wrong and need to be corrected. It's not about whether other people see them as a woman, but whether they themselves feel like one.

I have often daydreamed about this scenerio and the answer to myself has always been YES, I have spent the last 50 years being what "others" want to see, not what "I" am on the inside looking out...which to me is clearly more female that what my body looks like, now I dont have to dressy all up to feel good, but it sure does feel nice to be a little "pretty" in 3D...just to validate in my mind that is possible to "match" mind with body if not in just a small way.

Its "my turn now" I'm not getting any younger and I want to be true to myself for once...and my hobbies will still be an important part of that whether it be basket weaving or shooting at my gun range :)

Quote from: pretty on May 01, 2012, 06:53:10 PM
Well, honestly what you described sounds to me like BDD and not GID.  :-X (BDD is a serious problem too)

I do get depressed about my body. But that's for reasons that are absolutely intertwined with my social presentation and with relating to others, expressing myself and being myself outwardly. There's no way I could separate them or isolate my need to transition as being just "wanting the right body." So the desert island example makes no sense to me. It's a lot more than that.

Then why is the end goal of a lot of treatment for GID, SRS/GCS/GRS.  Being dissatisfied with your biological sex is a key part of dysphoria for many people.

I was trying to use it to dig a hole and then make it fall off at 4.  Being older and then being raised by my grandparents I was quickly "taught" to not do that and not to talk like that.  When I finally decided I HAD to transition I was willing to do it even if I were a total outcast from society.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 01, 2012, 12:19:01 PM
http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp (http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp)

• The average gamer is 37 years old and has been playing for 12 years.


• Eighty-two percent of gamers are 18 years of age or older.


• Forty-two percent of all players are women and women over 18 years of age are one of the industry's fastest growing demographics.


• Today, adult women represent a greater portion of the game-playing population (37 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (13 percent)

Not really what I'd call an entirely male pursuit. :)

This is quite true. But I've found few females while amidst multiplayer halo matches on Xbox Live.

Of course since most of the kids are jerks, I don't blame them.

Quote from: pretty on May 01, 2012, 06:53:10 PM
Well, honestly what you described sounds to me like BDD and not GID.  :-X (BDD is a serious problem too)

http://www.thebddfoundation.com/what_isbdd/preoccupation2.htm (http://www.thebddfoundation.com/what_isbdd/preoccupation2.htm)

QuotePeople with BDD may be concerned about a lack of symmetry, or feel that something is too big or swollen or too small, or that it is out of proportion to the rest of the body. People with BDD may have specific concerns or vague concerns simply referring to ugliness.

That's not really the same as feeling that something is part of the wrong physical sex and shouldn't be there at all, and replaced with something else entirely.

So no, I don't think it's that.

I am a woman, my mind and soul tells me so.. What does it matter if I happen to enjoy fast cars, guns, sports etc? Does this somehow invalidate what my mind and soul is telling me?

Quote from: kelly_aus on May 01, 2012, 07:24:03 PM
I am a woman, my mind and soul tells me so.. What does it matter if I happen to enjoy fast cars, guns, sports etc? Does this somehow invalidate what my mind and soul is telling me?

Not in my book Kelly...it just makes you and I very much the same!  and that actually makes me feel real good to know there are others out there like me...thank you for just being "you" :)

Quote from: pretty on May 01, 2012, 04:33:25 PM
Yeah this I guess....

I am happy to live and let live but I feel kinda written off when people say they were raised into masculine interests like they wouldn't have otherwise liked them, when I was raised being pressured into masculine interests but refused to do them and still developed mainly feminine ones instead.

it seems like every post you make is in regards to how feminine vs masculine you are, and that because of that, you should transition.

I'm thinking back to several women that have impacted my life (I'm male for what it's worth).

A woman mentor took me for my first flight in a Cessna 182.  She started a life-long love of aviation in my life.

Another woman science teacher saw and took time to help me as a child pursue my dream.  She encouraged me to explore science, something that still benefits my life.  In my career, I am constantly using the scientific and engineering methods, which I learned from her.

A woman teacher taught me how to make ethernet patch cables and configure routers.  From there, I've been able to enjoy a successful career in the computer field.

As a grown man now, I'm *very* glad these women were in my life, and that they ignored sexist garbage that would imply that these things weren't compatible with true womanhood.  They impacted my life greatly through sharing their natural talents and interests.  Please don't destroy your dreams or ignore your talents!  A woman cannot cease to be a woman!

Quote from: Kelly-087 on May 01, 2012, 07:11:51 PM
This is quite true. But I've found few females while amidst multiplayer halo matches on Xbox Live.

Of course since most of the kids are jerks, I don't blame them.

I know of a gaming community for a particular "masculine" game which did a poll of its members a few years back. It was 99.3% male and 0.7% female.

(One thing worth noting: the real-world analogue of the game has a lot more women.)

There might be lots of female gamers, but some games basically don't attract that many of them...

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 01, 2012, 11:58:02 AM
I'm a girl, so everything I do is a "girl thing."

I remember someone very wise saying something similar a long time ago on this board...

I whole-heartedly agree with that statement... as much as I was inspired by it when I first heard it. :)

Quote from: Kelly J. P. on May 02, 2012, 01:15:58 AM
I remember someone very wise saying something similar a long time ago on this board...

I whole-heartedly agree with that statement... as much as I was inspired by it when I first heard it. :)

Ya, it's a quote from Helena. Though I have a feeling she stole it from somewhere too. I figured I should carry on the tradition. ;)

Quote from: FullMoon19 on May 01, 2012, 08:20:38 PM
it seems like every post you make is in regards to how feminine vs masculine you are, and that because of that, you should transition.

Definitely, if you ignore all the other posts I make.  :D

I don't really do stuff that could be called hobbies, but I have no issues with still doing things that many consider masculine, such as mechanic work, remodeling, welding, etc. 

Heck, I rebuilt my house, doing most of the work myself, since I started transitioning.  I've also dropped in a new piston in a 454 for an rv and do other stuff involving rvs, my lawn mower and anything else I need work done to.

Quote from: Jaime on May 02, 2012, 11:04:09 AM
I don't really do stuff that could be called hobbies, but I have no issues with still doing things that many consider masculine, such as mechanic work, remodeling, welding, etc. 

Heck, I rebuilt my house, doing most of the work myself, since I started transitioning.  I've also dropped in a new piston in a 454 for an rv and do other stuff involving rvs, my lawn mower and anything else I need work done to.

Yeah, if a woman knows how to fix things (well, if anybody knows how to fix things), there's no reason she should stop. Isn't that considered a good thing all around?

Quote from: Forum Admin on May 02, 2012, 01:50:27 PM
Yeah, if a woman knows how to fix things (well, if anybody knows how to fix things), there's no reason she should stop. Isn't that considered a good thing all around?

I agree completely. I am so tired of women who act helpless, like they can't do a bloody thing, knowing some "man" will "save" them. I never realised its true extent until transitioning, and then I started hearing lazy arsed girls say "oh I'll just get a guy to do it for me..." as if its a badge of honour.

They are the reason the reasons myths like these exist, and are perpetuated...

Quote from: Forum Admin on May 02, 2012, 01:50:27 PM
Yeah, if a woman knows how to fix things (well, if anybody knows how to fix things), there's no reason she should stop. Isn't that considered a good thing all around?

Most definitely and I have a few neighbors that would agree also, lol. I'm one of those picky people that have things just right, no shortcuts, used to drive my dad and my brother crazy, but after he and his friends screwed up stuff on his own house that I had to come back and fix, they let up about how much of a perfectionist I am about stuff like that. And I still get some satisfaction about not having to pay anyone for work that I can usually do better in the first place.

The first step, is to stop applying gender roles to hobbies. :P

Quote from: Dahlia on May 01, 2012, 04:01:46 PM
BS.That sounds like a silly excuse for liking masculine things by nature.  Being interested in (big) gunplay and shooting .

B.S  that sounds like any woman who ever picked up a gun to put meat in the pot is really masculine by nature.
Tell that to the natals women at the shooting range.

Just to really echo what everyone else has already said...

Hobbies are not inherently gendered. There is only the stigmatization attached to them that influences society's perceptions of particular activities as distinctly "masculine" or "feminine."

http://tyneandwear.sky.com/sunderland/video/20071 (http://tyneandwear.sky.com/sunderland/video/20071)

bunch of masculine naatured women?

Quote from: lilacwoman on May 08, 2012, 02:47:46 AM
http://tyneandwear.sky.com/sunderland/video/20071 (http://tyneandwear.sky.com/sunderland/video/20071)

bunch of masculine naatured women?

Soccer is for sissies, try some football or rugby. Just kidding!!! :laugh:

Quote from: Trixie on May 01, 2012, 11:12:26 AM
I... FEEL feminine, and like some feminine things but that doesn't change the other things I like, and what I'm interested in. I like motor racing, guns, aviation, space ships, science... boy things.  :-\

I can't help but feel that my interests... somehow invalidate my feminity. Like, if I'm going to identify as trans, I shouldn't enjoy those things. People won't take my gender identity seriously either I feel, knowing how I am and what I like.

Motor racing - Danica Patrick
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwallpapers99.com%2Fimages%2Fwallpaper%2F1024x768%2FDanica%2520Patrick_9178.jpg&hash=57dfc1ea08f0befddb87605869488f9a08d4e7e6)

Guns - womens Olympic biathlon
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F0.tqn.com%2Fd%2Fcanadaonline%2F1%2FG%2F6%2FF%2Fbiathlonwomenspursuit.jpg&hash=73d0760e5f96bcb4cb7ac866598155285a5243ea)

Aviation - USAF female pilot
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.moddb.com%2Fimages%2Fgroups%2F1%2F6%2F5425%2FUSAF_Female_Pilot.jpg&hash=2394d3469791bb277dc2dc8f8aafdc97d1ef95ac)

Space ships - Sally Ride
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fthenewagenda.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F07%2Fsallyride1.jpg&hash=3e0796f0f0714c4d0b8e4f568ab67e6bc80549e6)

Science - Marie Curie
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mnn.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2Fnode-gallery-display%2Fcurie.jpg&hash=bd1a7f6906fffdb05cf76d174b4cb9067d8b83b8)

These ladies might disagree those are "boys" hobbies.

I'm female. I'm not feminine (nor am I masculine), I'm female.

I'm transitioning because I got stuck with a male body and am not supposed to have one of those.

There are billions of different kind of woman. I'm this kind. Be yourself.

How come it's always cars, guns, and airplanes? I am restoring two Mod "A"s, I used to be a big gun enthusiast and am a Life member of the NRA. And I used to own my own plane (C-172) and I'm a licensed pilot. I am also a former Senior Model Maker ( Tool and Diemaker, Machinist) and welder. A former mahogany speedboat owner and enthusiast and for a short while I worked in a zinc mine and am a mineralogy nut.
     Regards, Terri

You don't owe anyone an explanation for why you do the things you do you know...

Quote from: Venus-Castina on May 19, 2012, 11:10:49 PMWhen you change something as fundamental as your sex people try to cope with this by placing you in a role they can recognize and feel comfortable with. "If you want to be a woman, why did you learn to fly" is heard more often than I can recall. "Why did you choose such a masculine degree as geology?" some say. The information that more than half the students are female  seems to go past them. When changing your sex from male to female a workshop in floristry is seen as mandatory.

I think it's more that people notice the general trend. I mean even here you'd have to be totally oblivious to not notice it.

What are MTFs here usually talking about? Guns, cars, planes, wives.

What are FTMs here usually talking about? Knitting, boyfriends, fashion, yaoi.

I normally wouldn't say anything but the difference is almost comically significant and people still act like they can't tell.

But then I don't like when people act like there is no such thing as masculinity or femininity. It only becomes an issue here because MTFs are so masculine and FTMs so feminine... in the cis population it's not an issue and it holds true most of the time.

Quote from: Laura91 on May 22, 2012, 03:27:56 PM
What if you have zero interest in these hobbies and you have never been in a relationship?

Well then you're not one of the majority of masculine MTFs.

Quote from: pretty on May 22, 2012, 03:21:58 PM
I think it's more that people notice the general trend. I mean even here you'd have to be totally oblivious to not notice it.

What are MTFs here usually talking about? Guns, cars, planes, wives.

What are FTMs here usually talking about? Knitting, boyfriends, fashion, yaoi.

I normally wouldn't say anything but the difference is almost comically significant and people still act like they can't tell.

But then I don't like when people act like there is no such thing as masculinity or femininity. It only becomes an issue here because MTFs are so masculine and FTMs so feminine... in the cis population it's not an issue and it holds true most of the time.

Why do you constantly trying to pen us all into smaller isolated boxes?  I own no firearms and only a single gas-shock pellet rifle to protect our animals on the farm.  I only fly if I absolutely have to, and you won't be seeing me doing any major work to a car anytime soon.  I actually like knitting, but even though it helped calm my anxiety I couldn't do it long because it caused carpal tunnel type symptoms.

Your continual put downs of non-straight transsexuals get REALLY old.

I was actually talking to my therapist today about getting to meet a few more of the transpeople in this area and was relieved that they weren't all proteges of a fairly big drag queen in the area.  When I was having my extensions put in at the salon she worked at she KEPT trying to talk me into letting her do my makeup.  Finally the manager that was working on my extensions told her that maybe I didn't want my makeup so extreme.  It isn't even really feminine at the level she wears.  And before you say that she is the "essence" of femininity I should mention that her voice is atrocious and she has no intention of every even changing her name legally.  At the PFLAG meeting where TTPC (Tennessee Transgender Political Coalition) presented there were around a dozen transpeople and only 1 was one of that queen's proteges.  It was so reaffirming to see what an extreme variation is present between each transperson.  Anyway my therapist actually pointed out something VERY interesting.  Coming to terms with being trans and deciding to act on it, is a way of stepping outside of your "mold".  It is so ironic that other transpeople try to put us into their molds instead of just lettings us be ourselves.

I think there are hobbies people *believe* are masculine and femine.  That's quite different from what is actually masculine and femine.

I also think a lot of supposedly typical gender-based behavior deals more with what someone is exposed to at a young age.  If someone is suspected of being a boy, he "helps" dad change the oil, goes hunting with dad, etc.  If someone is suspected of being a girl, she helps mom cook, iron, sew, shop, etc.

Obiously if someone goes hunting from a young age, and discovers they are good at it, they very well may develop a love for it - even if they were misidentifeid as a boy when they truly were a girl.  A woman doesn't cease to become a woman based on what she is interested in, just as a man doesn't cease to become a man based on what they are interested in.

If you want to live according to the stereotype because that's what you believe a "real" woman or a "real" man would do, that's fine.  But don't criticize me or anyone else because their masculinity or feminity is not based on the same things yours' is.

Some of this conversation strikes me as the whole "what is woman?" question.  Surely we've answered that as a society by now.

I realize lots of men and women are not secure in their gender expression.  That's another reason you see the stereotypes played out sometimes in real life.  But people's insecurity doesn't make these stereotypes true.

Looked at more positively, people brought up in one gender haven't been conditioned to be "not interested" in the whole range of interests that the opposite gender have been told they "shouldn't be interested in", so when they transition, they're free to be interested in everything. There may well be loads of ciswomen, for example, who would be into maintenance and cars etc. if they hadn't been trained not to take an interest. The same goes for appearance.

I honestly can't say what is a masculine hobby any more. Men cook, sew, paint, and collect stamps. Women do woodworking, work on cars, and play football. I certainly don't shy away from anything I've ever wanted to do. I learned to hang glide, do woodworking, build telescopes, learn photography, do a little computer gaming, and write, since my change.

Chin up!

Cindi

Quote from: Jeneva on May 22, 2012, 03:52:39 PM
Why do you constantly trying to pen us all into smaller isolated boxes?  I own no firearms and only a single gas-shock pellet rifle to protect our animals on the farm.  I only fly if I absolutely have to, and you won't be seeing me doing any major work to a car anytime soon.  I actually like knitting, but even though it helped calm my anxiety I couldn't do it long because it caused carpal tunnel type symptoms.

Your continual put downs of non-straight transsexuals get REALLY old.

I think you are taking me too personally. I don't have a grudge against gay trans people or something like that.

Really I just find it a little irritating when the trans community tries to impose their own definition of what masculinity and femininity are JUST because they don't fit the norms of the gender they are transitioning to. If MTFs don't fit in among women that doesn't mean it is fair to add a clause to what it means to be a woman. It is what it is and it should be established by what applies to the majority of people.

Quote from: pretty on May 23, 2012, 04:33:51 PM
I think you are taking me too personally. I don't have a grudge against gay trans people or something like that.

Really I just find it a little irritating when the trans community tries to impose their own definition of what masculinity and femininity are JUST because they don't fit the norms of the gender they are transitioning to. If MTFs don't fit in among women that doesn't mean it is fair to add a clause to what it means to be a woman. It is what it is and it should be established by what applies to the majority of people.

But you are actually defining women to be what YOU want it to be.  When you do that then you are also saying that MTFs aren't women since they don't fit your definition of women.

As you said being a women is what it is and you don't get to redefine it.

Quote from: Jeneva on May 23, 2012, 04:46:12 PM
But you are actually defining women to be what YOU want it to be.  When you do that then you are also saying that MTFs aren't women since they don't fit your definition of women.

As you said being a women is what it is and you don't get to redefine it.

Agreed.  I'd add that "most people's" definition of what it means to be a woman would likely be "what your mom's doctor said when you were delivered."  Slightly more enlightened people might say "what your external sex organs look like."  Or "someone capable of becoming pregnant."  None are a particularly nuanced definition, nor even includes everyone who is obviously a woman - and all of these exclude a ton of trans people no matter how well they fit gender stereotypes for their gender.  So I would suggest not using the average person's definition, since the average person's definition is uninformed and ignorant at the least.  It's also problematic to define a socially less-powerful group of people (women, in this case) by popular definition, as the power imbalance ends up letting the socially more powerful group (men, for instance) define them, which never turns out good.

I think that's even more important as a point of view for a transwoman, as a transwoman is walking in a power imbalance in general society for two reasons, not just one.

I'd probably suggest using a feminist position (first generation feminist, anyhow) that a woman doesn't cease to be a woman because she doesn't do what the popular definition says is woman.

A gay non-trans man is not suddenly feminine or a woman.  Nor is a non-trans man who is a florist or nurse suddenly feminine or a woman. It's just a guy doing something non-traditional.  But still a guy.

Finally, I think some people pass much more effectively in their gender by *not* trying to be ultra feminine or ultra masculine.  Sometimes a bit of ambiguity can actually aid passing.  Rather than someone acting as someone they are not (not everyone is a good actor, after all), acting as they are will be more natural.  If the person trying to act feminine is doing so badly, it may even come across as a caricature rather than real.  Some people would probably rather be seen as a bit of a tom-boy but clearly woman rather than a caricature of a woman.  Non-trans women are not perfectly feminine, so why should trans women be?  And if trans women should be, that would imply they are somehow different from "real women" - something I don't believe to be true.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 23, 2012, 05:28:58 AM
I honestly can't say what is a masculine hobby any more. Men cook, sew, paint, and collect stamps. Women do woodworking, work on cars, and play football. I certainly don't shy away from anything I've ever wanted to do. I learned to hang glide, do woodworking, build telescopes, learn photography, do a little computer gaming, and write, since my change.

Chin up!

Cindi

Cindi - you are so right.

I think the concept of "masculine" or "feminine" hobbies hearkens back to the traditional gender roles in a given society.  To the extent that those traditional roles are being abandoned, the concept of a gendered hobby becomes increasing moot.

QuoteWhat are MTFs here usually talking about? Guns, cars, planes, wives.

What are FTMs here usually talking about? Knitting, boyfriends, fashion, yaoi.

I really can't tell a huge difference between the trans men/women here and the men/women in general society (who may or may not be trans for all I know). If there was a difference I would just say it was becasue we spent years trying to fit into a different mold, but I really don't see a big one wants the walls fall down.

As for myself, I hate guns and cars, I'm ambivalent to planes, and I'm attracted to women but have never been in a relationship and honestly haven't tried that hard. Maybe some day. I also can see the appeal to knitting but I don't want to do it, I'd NEVER want to date a man, fashion is fun as long as I think of it like a game rather than an obligation, and I've never seen any yaoi even though I probably would like some of it. My biggest interests are playing music in a male dominated style (meaning the women have historically been sidelined, not that they didn't exist), cooking when I have the time, and reading science fiction, fantasy, politics, current events, and economic social theory. The heavier stuff when I have the time and focus.

So gee where do I land.

Quote from: pretty on May 22, 2012, 03:21:58 PM
.

But then I don't like when people act like there is no such thing as masculinity or femininity. It only becomes an issue here because MTFs are so masculine and FTMs so feminine... in the cis population it's not an issue and it holds true most of the time.

I pretty much almost never see it. I usually see MTFs shooting for a completely over feminine persona and FTMs.. well they generally fall nicely at a comfortable level of masculine.

Quote from: Slanan on May 23, 2012, 05:08:39 PM
Agreed.  I'd add that "most people's" definition of what it means to be a woman would likely be "what your mom's doctor said when you were delivered."  Slightly more enlightened people might say "what your external sex organs look like."  Or "someone capable of becoming pregnant."  None are a particularly nuanced definition, nor even includes everyone who is obviously a woman - and all of these exclude a ton of trans people no matter how well they fit gender stereotypes for their gender.  So I would suggest not using the average person's definition, since the average person's definition is uninformed and ignorant at the least.  It's also problematic to define a socially less-powerful group of people (women, in this case) by popular definition, as the power imbalance ends up letting the socially more powerful group (men, for instance) define them, which never turns out good.

I think that's even more important as a point of view for a transwoman, as a transwoman is walking in a power imbalance in general society for two reasons, not just one.

I'd probably suggest using a feminist position (first generation feminist, anyhow) that a woman doesn't cease to be a woman because she doesn't do what the popular definition says is woman.

A gay non-trans man is not suddenly feminine or a woman.  Nor is a non-trans man who is a florist or nurse suddenly feminine or a woman. It's just a guy doing something non-traditional.  But still a guy.

Finally, I think some people pass much more effectively in their gender by *not* trying to be ultra feminine or ultra masculine.  Sometimes a bit of ambiguity can actually aid passing.  Rather than someone acting as someone they are not (not everyone is a good actor, after all), acting as they are will be more natural.  If the person trying to act feminine is doing so badly, it may even come across as a caricature rather than real.  Some people would probably rather be seen as a bit of a tom-boy but clearly woman rather than a caricature of a woman.  Non-trans women are not perfectly feminine, so why should trans women be?  And if trans women should be, that would imply they are somehow different from "real women" - something I don't believe to be true.

Well, the real issue here is that I feel you are comparing apples and oranges.  :)

It's perfectly okay to have a loose definition of what it means to be a man or woman for cis men and women. Because they are not classified as a man or woman based on what they do, and that is not the frame of reference you're talking about them in. They are classified as  a man or woman based on their physical sex.

So, quite frankly, if you use the same ruler to classify a trans person, you will establish that nobody can be trans, because a cis man can do anything he wants to, "even pretend to himself that he is a woman."

But that's not what we want to end up with. We want a definition of what it means to be a woman that can include people that aren't genetically a woman--so, something beyond just physical sex. And honestly, how do you do that? You can say that anybody who calls themselves a woman is a woman but then the classification of "woman" doesn't mean anything anymore, because it doesn't describe a group of people in contrast to another group (men) and in terms of how they actually differ. It just describes the group of people that call themselves a woman, whether or not they have anything in common with one another. That's a huge shift in defining a "woman" and that is only ever going to be acceptable within the trans community. Society is not going to accept or agree with that definition  :-\. It's too confusing, it's too subjective, and it's not helpful for determining pretty much anything at all.

So, if we are going to make the case that it's actually possible to be a woman but born in a man's body, we have to change that initial definition of "woman" only a little bit to allow for a special case (trans women). And it doesn't really matter if one individual person is atypical here or there. It's about averages. If trans women on average are greatly different than cis women, then it IS hard to put them under the same label while still trying to be accurate. Because they have different tendencies. All issues of personality come on a spectrum but there has to be an absolute peak on the bell curve and you judge sameness by where that peak is, not by whether or not there is an overlap at all. But in the first place you'd be including cis women in that label for different reasons than you are including trans women (physical sex vs self-ascribed gender). So again, the term woman becomes inconsistent with itself and to actually properly distinguish people you have to use "cis woman" and "trans woman."

I think the only workable presentation of trans issues is to make the case for the similarity of trans women and cis women  :) (and trans men and cis men of course--I'm just kinda speaking from my side of the issue). And you can't do that if you are trying to downplay the natural differences between the sexes. Transition is only meaningful because there ARE differences.

I love hunting, and shooting. I can work a ranch as well as the guys. That includes welding drive a tractor, birth a calf, brand a cow. But, I dont like sports, or race cars. I do enjoy a good first person shooter or RPG.  I guess you could say my hobbies are well rounded. Oh, I also enjoy making hand made knives ( no power tools).

Quote from: pretty on May 25, 2012, 12:59:26 PMIt's perfectly okay to have a loose definition of what it means to be a man or woman for cis men and women. Because they are not classified as a man or woman based on what they do, and that is not the frame of reference you're talking about them in. They are classified as  a man or woman based on their physical sex.

I disagree.  People are generally classifed as man or woman based on their apparent sex, not their actual sex.

I also was very careful with my words - man/woman = gender, not sex.  I also think masculinity and feminity equally are distinct, not directly sex or gender, but rather the degree of conformity in society.

QuoteSo, quite frankly, if you use the same ruler to classify a trans person, you will establish that nobody can be trans, because a cis man can do anything he wants to, "even pretend to himself that he is a woman."

That doesn't follow.  I do think a cisman can do anything he wants to, even pretend he is a woman.  Some cross dressers might describe themselves that way (others likely wouldn't).  Certainly the young boys who played women in historical theater aren't women.

The ruler is self-definition.  So what if the word doesn't mean whatever someone wants it to.  If what you are looking for to call a woman is "Someone who wants to have female genitals, whether they already have them or not", you need to talk about genitals, not gender.  But if you want to talk woman, you can't set up a different standard for transwoman that "because society will judge you, you have to be a stereotypical woman, and you can't do everything other women will do or I'm going to label you man."

QuoteBut that's not what we want to end up with. We want a definition of what it means to be a woman that can include people that aren't genetically a woman--so, something beyond just physical sex. And honestly, how do you do that? You can say that anybody who calls themselves a woman is a woman but then the classification of "woman" doesn't mean anything anymore, because it doesn't describe a group of people in contrast to another group (men) and in terms of how they actually differ.

Yes it does describe how they differ.  They key difference between men and woman is that men want to be men and women want to be women.  Sure, that means that difference isn't necessarily useful to the family doctor ordering sex exams (so they should ask for sex, not gender, when asking medical questions that relate to sex).  It also means that I don't know if the person who is a woman is likely to have masculine or feminine hobbies and interests.  If I want to categorize people based on interest, THAT is what I need to ask about, not their gender.

QuoteIt just describes the group of people that call themselves a woman, whether or not they have anything in common with one another. That's a huge shift in defining a "woman" and that is only ever going to be acceptable within the trans community. Society is not going to accept or agree with that definition  :-\. It's too confusing, it's too subjective, and it's not helpful for determining pretty much anything at all.

Most of society doesn't have a definition of woman.  "They know it when they see it."  So this is pretty much just an academic excercize anyhow.  Ask someone who hasn't studied gender or feminism about what the definition of a woman is.  They will come up with a definition likely based on chromosomes or sex organs.  Ask about an intersexed person, a person who has their organs changed by a doctor, or a person who has an accident that affects their organs.  They'll add a bunch of special cases to the definition (enough so that the special cases cause the definition to become useless).  Heck, we can't even define it in our laws - find one law that describes what a "man" is for the purpose of marriage in one of the many places that require "one man and one woman".

QuoteSo, if we are going to make the case that it's actually possible to be a woman but born in a man's body, we have to change that initial definition of "woman" only a little bit to allow for a special case (trans women).

No, we don't.  The case has already been made, along with the related case that it's okay to not fit your gender role.  It was made in decades ago when people who do study this (this is an academic question after all - one of us pursuading the other won't change anything real in the world, so academics are a good place to start when studying this) differentiated sex and gender.

QuoteI think the only workable presentation of trans issues is to make the case for the similarity of trans women and cis women  :) (and trans men and cis men of course--I'm just kinda speaking from my side of the issue). And you can't do that if you are trying to downplay the natural differences between the sexes. Transition is only meaningful because there ARE differences.

I agree that transwomen and non-trans women need to be seen as the same, from a perspective of gender in particular.  But saying "transwomen are only women if they are close to stereotypically feminine but non-trans women are women no matter what" is not making the case for similarity, it's pointing out a huge difference.  One person (the non-trans woman) gets to be a woman no matter what, while the other (trans-woman) only gets to be a woman if judged woman-enough by others.  In otherwords, this wouldn't be being treated similarly.  It would subject trans-women to a different standard.

Your argument also assumes as a basis that non-stereotypically femine transwomen shouldn't be called women.  You make that as as an assumption when you say that we need a definition that is based on more than body parts, but shows a real difference - and that the definition should essentially include three groups of people (I know there are other categories - I'm simplifying it):

* Ciswomen who are feminine in behavior/appearance/attitude/hobby/etc
* Ciswoman who are masculine in behavior/appearance/attitude/hobby/etc
* Transwomen (or maybe more precisely "non-cis-women" who aren't cismen) who are feminine in behavior/appearance/attitude/hobby/etc

You want a definition that allows these three categories.  That was the basis of your definition.  That's where we differ - I'd agree if the above three categories described "woman", that your definition is great.  But there's a forth (and a fifth and a sixth and a seventh...) category of woman - transwoman who are masculine in behavior/appearance/attitude/hobby/etc.  And you can either just say "They aren't women, and here's my new definition of woman" (since the standard definition would exclude the femine transwomen, it obviously can't be used).  But if we're making a definition that differs from society's definition, why not include my forth category?  The only reason not to is if you don't want it to.  That is the root of this argument.

Society doesn't need a definition that has a bunch of special cases to handle different types of women.  It needs a simple definition (which means no special cases).  Someone with a woman gender identity is a woman.  Identity and actions don't always line up in stereotypical ways, nor should they be made to.  Why should a woman (or a man) have to live in fear that their identity is based on the whims of the times and society?

Quote from: Slanan on May 25, 2012, 04:37:01 PM
I disagree.  People are generally classifed as man or woman based on their apparent sex, not their actual sex.

I also was very careful with my words - man/woman = gender, not sex.  I also think masculinity and feminity equally are distinct, not directly sex or gender, but rather the degree of conformity in society.

That doesn't follow.  I do think a cisman can do anything he wants to, even pretend he is a woman.  Some cross dressers might describe themselves that way (others likely wouldn't).  Certainly the young boys who played women in historical theater aren't women.

The ruler is self-definition.  So what if the word doesn't mean whatever someone wants it to.  If what you are looking for to call a woman is "Someone who wants to have female genitals, whether they already have them or not", you need to talk about genitals, not gender.  But if you want to talk woman, you can't set up a different standard for transwoman that "because society will judge you, you have to be a stereotypical woman, and you can't do everything other women will do or I'm going to label you man."

Yes it does describe how they differ.  They key difference between men and woman is that men want to be men and women want to be women.  Sure, that means that difference isn't necessarily useful to the family doctor ordering sex exams (so they should ask for sex, not gender, when asking medical questions that relate to sex).  It also means that I don't know if the person who is a woman is likely to have masculine or feminine hobbies and interests.  If I want to categorize people based on interest, THAT is what I need to ask about, not their gender.

Most of society doesn't have a definition of woman.  "They know it when they see it."  So this is pretty much just an academic excercize anyhow.  Ask someone who hasn't studied gender or feminism about what the definition of a woman is.  They will come up with a definition likely based on chromosomes or sex organs.  Ask about an intersexed person, a person who has their organs changed by a doctor, or a person who has an accident that affects their organs.  They'll add a bunch of special cases to the definition (enough so that the special cases cause the definition to become useless).  Heck, we can't even define it in our laws - find one law that describes what a "man" is for the purpose of marriage in one of the many places that require "one man and one woman".

No, we don't.  The case has already been made, along with the related case that it's okay to not fit your gender role.  It was made in decades ago when people who do study this (this is an academic question after all - one of us pursuading the other won't change anything real in the world, so academics are a good place to start when studying this) differentiated sex and gender.

I agree that transwomen and non-trans women need to be seen as the same, from a perspective of gender in particular.  But saying "transwomen are only women if they are close to stereotypically feminine but non-trans women are women no matter what" is not making the case for similarity, it's pointing out a huge difference.  One person (the non-trans woman) gets to be a woman no matter what, while the other (trans-woman) only gets to be a woman if judged woman-enough by others.  In otherwords, this wouldn't be being treated similarly.  It would subject trans-women to a different standard.

Your argument also assumes as a basis that non-stereotypically femine transwomen shouldn't be called women.  You make that as as an assumption when you say that we need a definition that is based on more than body parts, but shows a real difference - and that the definition should essentially include three groups of people (I know there are other categories - I'm simplifying it):

* Ciswomen who are feminine in behavior/appearance/attitude/hobby/etc
* Ciswoman who are masculine in behavior/appearance/attitude/hobby/etc
* Transwomen (or maybe more precisely "non-cis-women" who aren't cismen) who are feminine in behavior/appearance/attitude/hobby/etc

You want a definition that allows these three categories.  That was the basis of your definition.  That's where we differ - I'd agree if the above three categories described "woman", that your definition is great.  But there's a forth (and a fifth and a sixth and a seventh...) category of woman - transwoman who are masculine in behavior/appearance/attitude/hobby/etc.  And you can either just say "They aren't women, and here's my new definition of woman" (since the standard definition would exclude the femine transwomen, it obviously can't be used).  But if we're making a definition that differs from society's definition, why not include my forth category?  The only reason not to is if you don't want it to.  That is the root of this argument.

Society doesn't need a definition that has a bunch of special cases to handle different types of women.  It needs a simple definition (which means no special cases).  Someone with a woman gender identity is a woman.  Identity and actions don't always line up in stereotypical ways, nor should they be made to.  Why should a woman (or a man) have to live in fear that their identity is based on the whims of the times and society?

I think maybe the wrong emphasis was taken from my post.  :(

And sorry this is kind of long and I don't know if I got everything in there I intended to say or even worded it very well because honestly this kind of stuff wears me out really fast and I've tried to write this reply several times and kept kind of quitting halfway.

Anyway, the point is that, yes, as an academic exercise you certainly could define men and women like that. But what help would it be?

No matter what way you look at it, we are going to have to fall somewhere within two extremes: either we call people men and women only by their personal gender identity, whatever that may mean to them, or we call people men and women only by their physical sex. Society's standard is the latter and occasionally it makes exceptions for trans people since after a while they actually resemble their target sex. But anyway, that's the standard we deal with and that's the reality of it.

Also note the language there: "call people."  That's what matters in real life.  And if I talked about strictly defining people then that that was lazy of me and I'm going to have to back away from that terminology.  What people *truly are* is a silly question because it is totally dependent on semantics.

And then, why don't we just think about the former definition a little bit. People are a man if they say they are a man and a woman if they say they are a woman.  Well to me, the important question is--at that point, what do those words even mean anymore?  If they are unrelated to a person's physical sex and they are unrelated to a person's masculinity and femininity, all they say about a person is which word they like better.  They're reduced to trivia about a person--like learning that they like the color blue.  The words "man" and "woman" only are so important right now because people think of them as reflecting on a lot more than gender identity.

The point that I am trying to make here is that for the words to mean anything, and actually be in contrast to each other and not just arbitrary things not even worth talking about, there has to be something that defines what is "womanly" and what is "manly."  And you have to be able to be womanly or manly without consciously claiming yourself as such.

And I have to say, a world where solely gender identity decided who we called a man and who we called a woman would ironically put trans people back in a terrible place. If it's taken as true that sex, gender and masculinity/femininity are all completely independent of each other, then you've set up an environment in which it's perfectly reasonable to deny someone a physical transition, and it's perfectly reasonable to keep someone out of their target sex's bathrooms, and all that other fun stuff.  Because what they self-identified as would have no bearing on what their physical sex should be. The two would be totally unrelated.

Anyway... at the end of the day, I'm just trying to be realistic here  :-\. I feel like the perfectly subjective, any-way-you-like-it picture of gender is not helpful and people only are even interested in it because they are on the outside looking in (to a society where gender and sex are intrinsically linked, as is masculinity and femininity with sex).  Personally, I don't care what you *define* me as, I am transitioning because I am feminine and I want to be able to properly be myself and express myself as I am.  Appearances and impressions are what really penetrate in a human world.  You can redefine gender any which way you want and it's not going to change the fact that most males are masculine and most females are feminine and there is a palpable difference... and a feminine male or a masculine female is going to have social and interpersonal difficulty as a result of that which would be eased if they changed their physical presentation to be in harmony with their gender (gender in the sense of the word that considers masculinity and femininity).

I don't know. It's frustrating for me  :(. I don't think there's a totally great answer that makes it 100% comfortable and easy to be trans. It's just not a pleasant condition. I don't think you make it any better by stripping all the meaning from gender either, though. And I think people like me who never felt masculine and who never did traditionally male things despite being encouraged to do them, feel that that is all written off by people who are trying to somehow force it to not seem strange that they lived a normal male life for a long time with no real problems fitting in as a man.

Quote from: pretty on May 28, 2012, 01:08:24 PM
No matter what way you look at it, we are going to have to fall somewhere within two extremes: either we call people men and women only by their personal gender identity, whatever that may mean to them, or we call people men and women only by their physical sex. Society's standard is the latter and occasionally it makes exceptions for trans people since after a while they actually resemble their target sex. But anyway, that's the standard we deal with and that's the reality of it.

Also note the language there: "call people."  That's what matters in real life.  And if I talked about strictly defining people then that that was lazy of me and I'm going to have to back away from that terminology.  What people *truly are* is a silly question because it is totally dependent on semantics.

So you're talking about our capacity to integrate into society as female... yes? Passability plus maybe a little bit extra in terms of commonality with other women.

But I think you're making a pretty critical mistake here. There isn't one international society, one international group of women, one international standard for womanhood. Instead there are smaller, tighter-knit groups of people with similar social class, education, sexuality, ideology, environment, etc. Those are the actual groups we are talking about being a part of, of being accepted into.

Rather than trying to compare me to a sort of amalgamated ideal of "woman," wouldn't it make more sense to compare me to the women who are like me? I'm a Canadian, 20-something, urban, middle-class, white, university-educated, queer, feminist, liberal, geeky, hipster girl. Wouldn't it make sense to compare me to that model? In which case, I fit right in. And you probably wouldn't (not enough piercings ;) ). Because that isn't your group.

Your standard of femininity makes wicked sense to you, because you match up with the other women who are part of your group. But it wouldn't work for me. It would be a handicap for me.

It probably sounds bizarre to you, but my short hair, my tomboy style, and my lack of makeup helps me fit in as female in my world, just as much as my soft high voice, my curvy hips, and my habit of talking with my hands.

Hi Sarah,

I totally agree with you: there is more to fitting in than just gender. You seem to have found your niche and I am happy for you. One thing though: how did your get your curvy hips? ;-)

Cheers,
Andi

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 28, 2012, 02:28:29 PM
It probably sounds bizarre to you, but my short hair, my tomboy style, and my lack of makeup helps me fit in as female in my world, just as much as my soft high voice, my curvy hips, and my habit of talking with my hands.

^---this.

If I wore a skirt and heels and makeup, I'd feel (besides being totally not me) very out of place amongst all my dyke and hippy friends I happily hang out with, and fit in with. So I look like the woman I am, and I get accepted for it because I'm comfortable - by both my friends and by women in general, so far.

For all practical purposes, "all women" is whoever you're with at the time.

I worked in open wheel auto racing for 27 years and I'm still involved on a crew. In fact, my profile photo has the roof of the modified in it.

I'm still love watching football and hockey. I'm a Boston Bruins diehard. I love punk rock and old school heavy metal.

Yet my genetic female friends still refer to me as "The Priss" , so I certainly wouldn't let any stereotyped "gender" hobbies prevent you from being you.

I let a lot of this type of thinking help rationalize my decision not to deal with my feelings, but eventually it clashed right up against the realization and knowledge that there were still women all around me in whatever hobbies I was into.  I've actually got a playlist on Spotify that I have been spending a lot of time with that features some of the most brutal women to grace extreme heavy metal. It's been very calming and stabilizing for me while I get things started with therapy et al

Pshh, interests are entirely superficial. It has nothing to do with how you identify.
In other news, I for one am obsessed with soccer. I just can't get enough. Considering how sports are overall "manly," I think that would qualify.
There's a lot of others, but it's more up to debate.

Quote from: ShiningStar on June 08, 2012, 11:55:54 PM
Pshh, interests are entirely superficial. It has nothing to do with how you identify.
In other news, I for one am obsessed with soccer. I just can't get enough. Considering how sports are overall "manly," I think that would qualify.
There's a lot of others, but it's more up to debate.

Hah, that's really funny given how a lot of North Americans think soccer is a wimpy sport, especially given all the diving ;)  Now women's soccer, there's a tough game!  I'd get trampled to death.  It's also funny given just how many closet homosexual men there are in North American football and all the denial surrounding it.

I saw a youtube video addressing this. We grew up in the wrong body. We do stuff to fit in, and it's very easy to grow to like many things. I know that I enjoy a lot of masculine things. It's normal. I'm an ourdoorsman/woman... people see men as more of an outdoors person, but it's not going to change my actions and what I do in the future.

This may already have been stated, but hobbies do not have reproductive organs. They are asexual and unisex. I say leave it at that!

Quote from: Violet Bloom on June 09, 2012, 01:27:21 PM
Hah, that's really funny given how a lot of North Americans think soccer is a wimpy sport, especially given all the diving ;)  Now women's soccer, there's a tough game!  I'd get trampled to death.  It's also funny given just how many closet homosexual men there are in North American football and all the denial surrounding it.

Don't watch of American soccer, but I totally know what you're talking about.
Now Rugby, that's a tough sport.

Quote from: Sera on June 11, 2012, 08:23:32 PM
This may already have been stated, but hobbies do not have reproductive organs. They are asexual and unisex. I say leave it at that!

ditto!

I know its an older topic but Thank you for this thread and especially this!!!

Quote from: Sephirah on May 01, 2012, 12:19:01 PM
http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp (http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp)

• The average gamer is 37 years old and has been playing for 12 years.


• Eighty-two percent of gamers are 18 years of age or older.


• Forty-two percent of all players are women and women over 18 years of age are one of the industry's fastest growing demographics.


• Today, adult women represent a greater portion of the game-playing population (37 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (13 percent)

Not really what I'd call an entirely male pursuit. :)

I have been playing RPG games since i was 5 years old and i love them. I also know how to play guitar and i know my way around a pc. I was feeling so self conscious about this issue just a few minutes ago, then i read this thread! feel so much better now!

  I never got into my sisters' dolls, even though we played house every once in a while.  The hobbies I did were science based and considered male.  My astronomy club had one female member in the late 1950's and she boasted about it when she dropped into town once.  Today it is still with an average age of 55 and male, the two female (excluding myself) E-board members are much younger than the rest of us.  The kids that trickle in are mostly female. 
  Most of the new postgrads are female.  But the top positions in the professional astronomy field are mostly male and there are quite a few areas that's still a boys' club, even though there are plenty of experienced female astronomers that could fill those positions.  Vas ceiling ut astrum, The glass ceiling to the stars. 
  Joelene

From my experience, every "male" hobby I love has plenty of "female" participants. I don't believe that hobbies or things you enjoy are gender specific, and any relation to gender is simply socially constructed.

It goes the other way as well. There is a good looking straight guy that I work with who is very masculine but openly confesses that he loves shopping, clothes and shoes even more than most girls he knows.

I am a soft butch I quess you could say.

I like my girly things and do wear make up sometimes, but most the time I am a jeans and tshirt kinda girl.

I like to shoot black powder fire arms. I like to hunt. I like heavy metal music and hard rock. I like action films and tv shows. I have a crude sense of humor on occasion. And when it is time to get into a confrontation there is something in me that flips and I start to enjoy the conflict and will seek to enflame emotions and rhetoric imediatly.

Yet there is no part of me that isn't female.
We have a couple of black powder guns...you should see the arsenal of modern weapons some of the cis females around here have. I may hunt the occasional bandit coyote for killing my chickens, women around here go on moose and elk hunts! My music tastes are not unheard of for girls, just not common. And plenty of women like the same movies and tv shows I like.

There are no intrinsicly male or female interests and hobbies. No interest is gendered.

When starting HRT I thought maybe I would lose my love for certain hobbies I loved. I always loved cars, not just any cars but the good ones:) you know bmw m cars, etc. I am not as strong as I used to be so i have to work smarter not harder, which is a change I like. My love for certain things like fashion is getting bigger because I am able to wear the clothes I like now. Essentially I am still me and still love what I love. In certain ways now that I feel better i am able to make more practical decisions(not that I think being practical is the answer, just being practical for yourself, like do I buy another car or do I get this nice apartment, or do i buy a car or do I save up for SRS). So, yes do what it is that you love, if you think it will build too much muscle or its not giving you the reprieve from manilihood, then let it go for awhile. I find that I had to stop being around certain people and situations because they just made me feel more masculine when I didnt want that.

Didn't the women's movement make it possible for women to do and be whatever they want?
So go ahead and be who you are (imo). Women are all different.

I hang out a lot with ftms and haven't noticed that they (or is it we??) all talk about knitting and fashion. Yeah there is talk re: what helps ftms look more male.

I don't think gendered interests exist. Yeah there are perhaps things that are MORE common for women to be interested in. But it is based on nurture not nature. The reason a lot of mtfs like cars and so on, is because they hung out with their dads in the formative years working with cars. I submit if you took a bunch of little girls and had them hang out with their dads working on cars a goodly number would love cars.

It is said that girls don't like so much rough and tumble? Why then are there so many tomboys? It's just normal fun play that everybody both boy and girl like.

--Jay Jay

The idea of "guy hobbies and girl hobbies should be totally dead. BUT they are NOT. I see a lot of others posting about "cross gender hobbies". And lot of what they say is true. But there is a catch - let me tell you because I get caught in EVERY TIME.  You might like shooting. Hey, I'm in Texas, we love our guns. But do you think when my exhusband ever went shooting/ hunting with his friends i was invited along? No way. The fact that I am physically still a girl ( working on that) mean that I get excluded from any "guy things" with many groups. I have almost NO female hobbies - I have horses, and horse are gender neutral - but other than that, its a problem. I get shuttled off the "women's groups". I have very little in common with the people. It has been very difficult. Don't let anyone fool you.

If you want to shoot with women, you'll be fine, but you may not be shooting with men anymore.

As for science - I used to teach science, more women are graduating from med schools than men. There are plenty of women into math and science. That category needs  to listed as gender neutral.

You will find people who share your intersts, I am just warning you that as a female, you might find it harder than you think. I have no female friend that shoot.  I have no female friends who work on cars. As you can see, this forum has some, but they are not obvious in the general community.

Good luck

@henrytwob-- Yeah I agree with that too. I would have guessed there are gal's gun clubs and gal's car clubs. I know there are gal's biking. Lots of gals seem to like those bikes. I have a girly friend who has a lavender Harley.

I agree too that you won't be shooting or working on cars with the guys.

Here's a little fluff piece: http://suite101.com/article/womens-car-clubs-gaining-speed-a404166 (http://suite101.com/article/womens-car-clubs-gaining-speed-a404166)

I agree with you that science should not be gendered. But a friend of mine is working on girls in science. The no. of females in biology is about 50% whereas the no. in physics and chemistry is much much lower still. (I would guess math is even lower.) There may some brain gender stuff going on here.


--Jay Jay

Please don't let yourself get wrapped up in "gender-specific" interests.  Marcy would say I'm very feminine, but I still love fishing, especially fly fishing, and fish regularly with my daughter.  The guys thinks it's wonderful.....we generally out-fish them, so we get a special respect.  Now, the guy at the gun shop can't let me out the door........"I'm sorry" he said, "I just don't get to talk to a lady about guns very often.....I hope I didn't take too much of your time Miss......"
And the guys at the range fell over each other to refit 2 magazines for my little Mark I Ruger from spare parts......."aw.....didn't cost us anything......no charge"
And I am the respected stick-fighting teacher of my grandson.   Now, that's not very lady-like, doing moves with sticks and canes to take down most adult males......but he sees me as Nana....as mentor, and as his science teacher, and as his mechanics instructor.  I can't let that go; don't want to.  But I also adore cooking, and have taken to playing harp......gardening, placing lovely garden fairies in the leaves, and trees....no.....not very manly.  Thank God.

As many other posters I cannot imagine of any benefit if I would have artificially changed to more feminine hobbies after I came out. For me it was simple. When I was younger and still lived as a man I learnt to like specific activities which I had access to. Of course, I would rather have preferred to do more things that women of my age did. But this was not possible at that time.

Until an old schoolmate ask me about my former interests a couple of weeks ago, I honestly never really bothered whether they are more masculine or feminine. As long as one doesn't affect other people's freedom with a specific interest, one should do what they like.

Nope!  I Still like fast cars, guns and other girly things!

TransByDef: Jenny Thursdays 11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YMhEukh8C0#)

I love to build stuff and soon i will build stuff like the following

https://www.facebook.com/naturalhomes (https://www.facebook.com/naturalhomes)


but here is some of the stuff i built in the last yr since febuary

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.ic.org%2Fdirectory%2Frecord_images%2Fimg%2F22661%2Fimage038.jpg&hash=5984900875b4604474da1f0d3174122e05e8d62f)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.ic.org%2Fdirectory%2Frecord_images%2Fimg%2F22661%2Floghousechin4.jpg&hash=4cfb8b1ada2989e52013aa2873d7208a55e8a57e)

see more of my farm here http://directory.ic.org/22661/Central_Pa_Mountain_farm___for_Hip_open_minded_people (http://directory.ic.org/22661/Central_Pa_Mountain_farm___for_Hip_open_minded_people)

Quote from: Jen-Jen on July 28, 2012, 10:05:21 AM
Nope!  I Still like fast cars, guns and other girly things!

Oh my gosh, Jen!  You are way too adorable for words!!!  Thanks for making me smile.... winky blinky.

Hugs!
Miharu

Amazon, that stuff is way cool!  I'm not likely to go living in such a house but I greatly appreciate the hard work and the creativity that goes into those.  I took a gander at your photos.  My favourite flower is the Tiger Lily - do you know what variety that is you have there?  Also, CATS!

BTW, nice to see you smiling for the camera ;)  I hope no "cheese" was harmed in the making.

Quote from: Violet Bloom on July 28, 2012, 11:48:56 PM
Amazon, that stuff is way cool!  I'm not likely to go living in such a house but I greatly appreciate the hard work and the creativity that goes into those.  I took a gander at your photos.  My favourite flower is the Tiger Lily - do you know what variety that is you have there?  Also, CATS!

BTW, nice to see you smiling for the camera ;)  I hope no "cheese" was harmed in the making.

It was a self photo so there was no cheese hurt

The two above are a well house and a outhouse  and as you saw at my site the bigger house is where i stay.

not sure about the flowers they grow wild here

Yeah, I love sports and sci-fi movies, etc. I used to think maybe that meant I wasn't trans, but LOTS of women like those things too.

If it were brain gender stuff, you would see the U.S. engineering, math and science proportions played out across the globe. But that is not what is happening. My partner is in the tech field and he travels internationally a lot. China and india have female hard science folks and female engineers. Look at Russia under the USSR. Many women went into the hard sciences.

No I'm sorry, it is not brain stuff, It is society stuff. culture stuff. Additionally, young brains are very plastic. One reason you see the gender differences you do could be entirely the types of stimuli young brains are exposed to. Additionally, there is research suggesting that girls do just as well as boys in math until around 8th grade. That often coincides we girls spending less time in academic pursuits  and more time in social activities.

I have tried my little bit, such as being a math and science teacher, to get girls more interested in science and get the whole system less sexist. What I learned is that society is really hard to change.

We lost a great female scientist this week. Sally Ride, who hosted science days for girls, was a true leader in the field.

Ham radio, Sport cars, radio controlled boats, planes, cars

Quote from: Miharu Barbie on July 28, 2012, 10:41:13 AM
Oh my gosh, Jen!  You are way too adorable for words!!!  Thanks for making me smile.... winky blinky.

Hugs!
Miharu

Thank you Miharu, like so much!  you made me blush. Your welcome.
Hugs Back,
Jenny