Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Is society trying to imply something (that transsexual women are really gay men and transsexual men  are really lesbian women?) Or why else would trans people be "part" of the gay community?

Why can't we have our own community?

Because we're not all gay men or lesbian women.

As for me, I'm a girl with a horrible birth defect and it feels like few people have any sympathy for me or those who are affected like me.

We have to stick together as a COMMUNITY because friendship is a very strong bond. ♥

Oh, and by the way I know plenty of transsexuals are glb. But plenty of cissexuals are glb too.

There was a big debate here on this very subject, last year. It got rather heated at times.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,99819.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,99819.0.html)

Hopefully this time it won't be.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 04, 2012, 06:32:33 PM
There was a big debate here on this very subject, last year. It got rather heated at times.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,99819.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,99819.0.html)

Hopefully this time it won't be.

Went there, it would be like so many threads as there are a lot of subjects in the forum that haven't already been discussed and beaten to death already. Nice to be able to review what's out there though, thanks for posting it!

I get we're you're coming from, but the way I see it, the thread that links us all is none of us are behaving in quite the way society expects us to do in relation to matters of gender.

That's why, as I see it.

Yes, that's true, or you could say, its pretty much dumbed down, so its easier for non Trans people to try and understand. "I am a girl" - oh, 'so your gay then' ? If people consider you to be, or look like a man in the first place, and know you to be a trans woman. I guess yes its the same for FTM's too who are probably going to be considered as lesbian tom boys.

We all know, its not a simple as that, but some people really don't get it, and never will. Let them have their little labels, and put everyone in their place, because they feel its their right to do so ! :)

You know who you are, and your friends will accept you too for who you are, what everyone else thinks - not that important. They got enough stuff of their own to deal with in life, they just can't cope or handle what you or I might, or might not be.

Our biggest commonality is that we are not conforming to some sort of "expected" behavior associated with our sex. If there was no expectation of someones birth sex, gays, lesbians, and bisexuals would never be considered "abnormal", and neither would we.

There is power in numbers.

Also realize that at some point almost every trans-person is considered homosexual. 

If they are really straight then often they are viewed (and may even have viewed themselves) as homosexual BEFORE transition.
If they are really homosexual then they are viewed as homosexual AFTER transition.

There is a degree of overlap between the groups because of this.

I thought about this in the past, and really I dont mind it. Firstly I personally love the LGBT community, everyone is so loving and most of them are mature. Not to mention LGB people are on our side, so we shouldn't be afraid about that. The real issue is just raising awareness about transgender people, which has been happening increasingly.

Well we are all social minorities, and as such we tend to experience similar situations. There are lots of people out there in addition to simply LGBT, including intersex, androgynes, questioning...and even allies.

Some of the communities overlap, and this pool resources..its the best way to go!

The root of the prejudices seem to be very similar. People have rigid notions of gender expression and behavior and they get very uncomfortable when anyone is not very clearly labeled and categorized. I think they belong together.

Quote from: ~~BebeLyss~~ on May 04, 2012, 06:24:58 PM


Why can't we have our own community?

Oh, and by the way I know plenty of transsexuals are glb. But plenty of cissexuals are glb too.

Because the the LBG is still fighting for their rights in many locations.  Acceptance for them is increasing slowly but surely.  I personally feel that the trans community doesn't get much exposure and when we do it's usually bad.  I say the T is in a way "riding the coat tails" of the LBG and there's no shame in that.  The more allies we get the better.

I don't mind, and I find it so odd that some people on here wanna separate so bad from LGB. It doesn't help our cause at all, it forces us to stand alone. Either way, a homophobe will always come to the conclusion that "transwoman = gay man with extensive plastic surgery".

Just because it's LGBT, doesn't mean that LG = T. ::)

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on May 04, 2012, 11:47:31 PM
I don't mind, and I find it so odd that some people on here wanna separate so bad from LGB. It doesn't help our cause at all, it forces us to stand alone. Either way, a homophobe will always come to the conclusion that "transwoman = gay man with extensive plastic surgery".

Just because it's LGBT, doesn't mean that LG = T. ::)

^ This

Quote from: Jeneva on May 04, 2012, 07:54:19 PM
Also realize that at some point almost every trans-person is considered homosexual. 

If they are really straight then often they are viewed (and may even have viewed themselves) as homosexual BEFORE transition.
If they are really homosexual then they are viewed as homosexual AFTER transition.

There is a degree of overlap between the groups because of this.

This is very true. Never thought of it that way :)

Quote from: ~~BebeLyss~~ on May 04, 2012, 06:24:58 PM
Is society trying to imply something (that transsexual women are really gay men and transsexual men  are really lesbian women?) Or why else would trans people be "part" of the gay community?

Why can't we have our own community?

Because we're not all gay men or lesbian women.

As for me, I'm a girl with a horrible birth defect and it feels like few people have any sympathy for me or those who are affected like me.

We have to stick together as a COMMUNITY because friendship is a very strong bond. ♥

Oh, and by the way I know plenty of transsexuals are glb. But plenty of cissexuals are glb too.

transgender is also part of the LBG not because of sexual orientation but because of the similiar struggles in civil rights and soceity's viewpoints of us that goes against the grain of "normal heterosexual society."

When someone mentions LGBT, I do not see it as them grouping us with them because of sexual orientation similarities but because of our similar struggles of equal rights, job and work force protection, etc etc.

And when I hear some trans complaining that T is in LGB and shouldn't be (or making a bigger issue than it is) I just shrug it off thinking if it's not this topic they want to bitch about, they'll just pick something else. But for the most part, the majority of trans have no issue with it.

Nothing bad having allies. Having allies is always better than trying to do it alone.

There were plenty of women who supported Black Suffrage because they knew that women wouldn't get rights until all men had them as well. And there were plenty that thought that Black Suffrage detracted from their movement. Then there were women that were racist.

It's a much harsher time I admit, but the parallels can be drawn.

I think that the big benefit to separating the grouping would be that it shows the world that there is indeed a difference between gender identity and sexuality. That said, I still think that I prefer being part of a larger LGBT community, there is definitely strength in numbers. Intolerance can do enough to make us feel like aliens to society without us having to draw our own lines to make our community more isolated. Another plus having one large community keeps all of the information/resources/etc together. Those who wish to get informed can do so more easily with everything being in one place, and will be able to come to their own conclusions. Those who solely wish to discriminate will unfortunately do so regardless, so I'd also rather not be singled out in that hate. So yea, there is a difference, and while that difference is important to me, I think promoting understanding and acceptance for ALL is much better than only seeking it for ourselves.

I think society tries to put things into contexts they can understand.

Society can understand gay people, now at least. They understand that some men, prefer men, while some women, prefer women. Society continues to have a sad obscession with sexual practice. The truth is, sex is only significant when you're a hormonal teenager. For adults, it's relationships.

Transgender people are, as you point out, in a different situation altogether. But it's difficult for most people to get their head around the notion of a man who wants to cut it off or a woman who want to be a guy. So it puts transgender people into a context it can understand and assumes transgender is extreme gay, or gay that seek to hide it and appear straight.

For my own part I am ready to stand beside any gay person and take whatever they take. It's only ignorance and stupidity, after all.

Quote from: spacial on May 05, 2012, 12:44:38 PM
I think society tries to put things into contexts they can understand.

Society can understand gay people, now at least. They understand that some men, prefer men, while some women, prefer women. Society continues to have a sad obscession with sexual practice. The truth is, sex is only significant when you're a hormonal teenager. For adults, it's relationships.

Transgender people are, as you point out, in a different situation altogether. But it's difficult for most people to get their head around the notion of a man who wants to cut it off or a woman who want to be a guy. So it puts transgender people into a context it can understand and assumes transgender is extreme gay, or gay that seek to hide it and appear straight.

Society (as in I assume you are saying a heterosexual society) did not put T in LGBT. We did. We as in everyone in the LGBT community (including trans).

The LGBT community isn't just defined by their sexual orientation. If people defined this vast group of people just because of their sexual (or gender) orientation then they are sadly missing a rather large piece of what LGBT is all about. LGBT is much more than sexual orientation or gender orientation. It's about the spirit to overcome dire obstacles, a willingness to be heard, and a desire to be respected, and so much more.

"labels labels" but I guess humans need to have them ;)

To me at least I am clearly a girl...always have been, but the vessel given to me by mother nature to go thru life in resembles a "male", where the "labels" get tricky is I am not attracted to guys in any way other than friendship, my preferred "gender" for relations, intimacy etc. is female...be that cis or trans female it doesn't matter at all. The majority of my friends growing up have been girls. But I was able to skate thru life presenting as male for the simple fact it was "easier"...that is changing as we speak :)

Now the public would view this as "lesbian" and I could care less really.

I think the LGBT exposure is just fine as far as educating the public and getting more power together for civil, equality rights...that is always a good thing!!

People won't understand what they can't feel.  So obviously non-trans people are not ever going to understand what trans people experience.  Sure... they may accept us as queer men (m2f), or people with a mental problem or people who are different or gay..  They may 'accept' us but I for one don't want their acceptance.  I would rather pass as female most of the time then spend any time around anyone who accepts me as 'trans'. 

I am female, I have always been female and transition has helped me to realize that more and more.  I refuse to play a pretend female around 'accepting' people so I take responsibility for my life instead of asking Society to do it for me.  I have worked very hard and sacrificed for many years so that I can have the experience of being female.  My experience isn't perfect, I don't pass perfectly but I do my best and I don' feel powerless, I don't feel sorry for myself.  I am not waiting for people to accept me.  I am not counting on any laws being passed that will make my life better.  I am alone in this.  Some trans people make me feel even more alone in this but my being female is a personal thing, not a team thing.

It's my life and I don't owe anyone anything but to be true to myself.

Life can be hard.  Most people lead lives of quiet desperation, a very small amount of people actually do something about it.  Many others leave responsibility to Society or whoever they think may adopt it and instead ask questions to guilt the innocent out of having proper lives.  Questions like, what about those who can't pass, are you just going to throw the trans community under the bus?  We all do what we can but you gotta save yourself before you can save anyone else.

Many people who transition will never be happy because they expected someone else to do the accepting when what they needed to do all along was to accept themselves as their true sex and carve a place out for themselves.. make a life for themselves.

Accept yourself, don't rely on others for acceptance or worst comes to worst, you may get what you wished for.

Cheers

Quote from: Many people who transition will never be happy because they expected someone else to do the accepting when what they needed to do all along was to accept themselves as their true sex and carve a place out for themselves.. make a life for themselves.

This is truly brilliant, and what life is all about....I really like how you put it so clearly.

I always explain it to the point that, its not about what we are, its more about what we wish..

we arn't simular,
we are diffrent gender, sex, have diffrent sexual orientation life, lifestyle, and so on.
but we have few things in common about how we want to be accepted and respected.

I think the part who bind the GLBT is actually "gender" and "sex" and freedom to love people regardless of those. (which also include transgender)
without that part, we can't even discuss the sexualety part of gay, bi, or anything ells..

as it said before I dont belive it to help us standing alone, I belive as a bigger group we stay stronger, but I also belive as a bigger group it demands more accept and tolorance from all of us.
people wont take us seriously for accepting our diffrences, if we cant accept our own diffrence parts in the group.
--
beside those, its fact that no matter what sexualety we have, we are in some way on the same situations as people with diffrent sexualety in one or another part.

ex: a gay ftm, will face the same discrimination as any other gay guy,
but a straight ftm, can also face discrimination, ex if the person isnt legal male, they might not be able to get marrige.

 My local political representative, here in Canada, believes that transgender individuals are protected under the "Sexual Orientation" part of the Charter, and that is why he is not voting to pass protection for "Gender Identity."

This is my case against being included in the LGB umbrella; that, in spite of the fact that being without them would leave us virtually without representation, what we are would at least be presented with more clarity if and when we did come up as a topic.

Being associated with them has its problems... socially, politically, and philosophically. I believe that if we were to leave the LGB banner at this point, it would be more beneficial than not.

Well I know I am because I'm a bi-trans but I think they are because LGBTs are outside of the sexuality norm that is all. I would simply not try to read too much into and go about your life as you would normally wether or not society likes you or not or if they decide to call you one thing or another. You know who you are so why does it matter what they say as long as its not negatively or harmfully effecting people?

I didn't read all post to weigh in exactly on the main reasoning behind trans and LGB-T being lumped together; however, the trans community alone is rather smaller than the gays and lesbians', who receive much larger fundings for their cause and have recognized civil liberties that started at the StoneWall riots in NY. They include trans people in their banner because there are gay men who seek for transitioning; becoming a woman is not just a priviledge limited to non-conforming-gender people; gay men who have sexual-orientation disphorias (not gender disphoria) may find themselves seeking a permanent female role in their lives.
Last, the American Psychiatric Association does not distinguish trans people's unique condition from gay people's dispositions. The reason most trans women like women is because they are not question their sexuality, and on the same token, gay men who seeks transitioning are questioning their roles as males in a male-male function, as part of a sexual disphoria.
Most ->-bleeped-<-s, ->-bleeped-<-s one sees on the web, on bars, etc are gay men who live their sexual roles fully and certainly did not suffer from rejecting their bodies like trans-women. Actually they realy love their genitals as they become a plus for sexual encounters. I confess that I am happy to have a sexual disphoria, cuz although i like being a man, I hate gay sex.

Thanks for that bit of transphobia Jackie, its nice to have the opinion of the true hetero-in-denial.

for what its worth some of those shamales and ->-bleeped-<-s you see will be perfectly stereotype MtFs who seek to socialise with other MtFs but only appear to be gay because they may enjoy flirting with men just like GGs.   Most of them may go home to lonely beds.

where do you live and go ->-bleeped-<-/->-bleeped-<- spotting?

Quote from: lilacwoman on May 13, 2012, 03:03:47 AM
Thanks for that bit of transphobia Jackie, its nice to have the opinion of the true hetero-in-denial.

for what its worth some of those shamales and ->-bleeped-<-s you see will be perfectly stereotype MtFs who seek to socialise with other MtFs but only appear to be gay because they may enjoy flirting with men just like GGs.   Most of them may go home to lonely beds.

where do you live and go ->-bleeped-<-/->-bleeped-<- spotting?

Cease such posts immediately.

Quote from: Susan on July 27, 2006, 07:45:44 PM
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:

• Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
• Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

If you cannot partake in the conversation in a mature and polite manner, do not partake at all.

Quote from: Jackie Witt on May 12, 2012, 11:20:51 PM
I didn't read all post to weigh in exactly on the main reasoning behind trans and LGB-T being lumped together; however, the trans community alone is rather smaller than the gays and lesbians', who receive much larger fundings for their cause and have recognized civil liberties that started at the StoneWall riots in NY. They include trans people in their banner because there are gay men who seek for transitioning; becoming a woman is not just a priviledge limited to non-conforming-gender people; gay men who have sexual-orientation disphorias (not gender disphoria) may find themselves seeking a permanent female role in their lives.
Last, the American Psychiatric Association does not distinguish trans people's unique condition from gay people's dispositions. The reason most trans women like women is because they are not question their sexuality, and on the same token, gay men who seeks transitioning are questioning their roles as males in a male-male function, as part of a sexual disphoria.
Most ->-bleeped-<-s, ->-bleeped-<-s one sees on the web, on bars, etc are gay men who live their sexual roles fully and certainly did not suffer from rejecting their bodies like trans-women. Actually they realy love their genitals as they become a plus for sexual encounters. I confess that I am happy to have a sexual disphoria, cuz although i like being a man, I hate gay sex.

Parts of this seem to be oversimplifications. Additionally, some of the vocabulary in this post are generally considered to be terms not to be used lightly.

It seems that parts of this post are very close to violating the bashing/flaming rule. Please be mindful when posting.

Quote from: Jackie Witt on May 12, 2012, 11:20:51 PM

Most ->-bleeped-<-s, ->-bleeped-<-s one sees on the web, on bars, etc are gay men who live their sexual roles fully and certainly did not suffer from rejecting their bodies like trans-women. Actually they realy love their genitals as they become a plus for sexual encounters. I confess that I am happy to have a sexual disphoria, cuz although i like being a man, I hate gay sex.

...don't know what to say about your entire comment except for...you assume too much

the LGBT community should help and support each other, maybe we don't always understand every last nuance of an individual's life but is that really needed to simply be there for someone when they're down?  We don't need to know someone's sexuality or gender identity to say 'I'm sorry for the situation you're in at the moment' or 'you're not alone in the world'.  It seems to me that our differences make us stronger as a group rather than our similarities, but that's just my opinion

Quote from: ~~BebeLyss~~ on May 04, 2012, 06:24:58 PM
Is society trying to imply something (that transsexual women are really gay men and transsexual men  are really lesbian women?) Or why else would trans people be "part" of the gay community?

Why can't we have our own community?

Because we're not all gay men or lesbian women.

As for me, I'm a girl with a horrible birth defect and it feels like few people have any sympathy for me or those who are affected like me.

We have to stick together as a COMMUNITY because friendship is a very strong bond. ♥

Oh, and by the way I know plenty of transsexuals are glb. But plenty of cissexuals are glb too.

I was going to church when i was younger and that was exactly what they were teaching the people. what sucked was I believed it. so my gender issues became mixed with who I was sexually. It made me even more confused about who I was. Part of the reason why I spread the truth about veriation of sexuality among trans people.

When they don't care or want to understand, we go into the one size fits all box - it ain't fair  :(

I heard one answer to this which I found interesting:
When someone is harassed it is more often for gender expression than anything else. Gay guys are more often identified by how they look-- which is why straight men who are not gay but look a little less than he-men can be harassed too.

--Jay Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on May 28, 2012, 06:56:43 PM
When someone is harassed it is more often for gender expression than anything else.

Some people mistake trans as being super gay. That seems obviously ridiculous. But might it make more sense the other way around? Could gayness be a little bit trans? The gender you're attracted to seems like just one aspect of gender expression and so it makes more sense to me to see it as a subset of the other.

Bear with me for a moment. We all get assigned a gender by society that wants to see it as very black and white when, even from a purely biological perspective, we're finding out that it's much more fluid. And then the taboo and societal backlash comes from any expression or behavior that's outside of what society expects us to conform to based on the gender that it assigned to us.

Long before I considered such a point of view, I did acknowledge that my being attracted to men was a feminine aspect of my personality. No matter how masculine of a guy I am, that part of me is feminine, at least in the traditionally-defined notions of what masculine and feminine are. And I, like most people, have other (classically) feminine traits or have had them for periods of time. For instance, I've had boyfriends who treated me like a lady to a large extent, like opening doors for me and so on, and I liked it at the time. I've also really disliked my own body hair to varying degrees and gone to some efforts to reduce it.

And some gay guys wear make-up, wear more feminine clothing, or even cross dress sometimes and express as female for periods of time or speak with a more female accent. People will call them "more gay" but that makes no sense to me. "Gay" only describes what they're attracted to and the gender(s) you're attracted to is only one aspect of gender expression. In fact, those other features make them more trans than guys who have more masculine mannerisms and appearance. They're not as far on the trans spectrum as someone who goes on hormones, maybe gets surgery to accentuate the feminine, and perhaps expresses full-time as female, but they're on the spectrum.

Quote from: dalebert on May 29, 2012, 04:22:11 PM
And some gay guys wear make-up, wear more feminine clothing, or even cross dress sometimes and express as female for periods of time or speak with a more female accent. People will call them "more gay" but that makes no sense to me. "Gay" only describes what they're attracted to and the gender(s) you're attracted to is only one aspect of gender expression. In fact, those other features make them more trans than guys who have more masculine mannerisms and appearance. They're not as far on the trans spectrum as someone who goes on hormones, maybe gets surgery to accentuate the feminine, and perhaps expresses full-time as female, but they're on the spectrum.

Well could be some are genderqueer. You don't have to know that you are to be.
Spoken by someone who didn't know that I was about 3 months ago. I have no idea how common this kind of thing is.

I think they could be on the spectrum if even if they aren't genderqueer. The spectrum would be very long and include people just a little to the edge of "normal" (whatever that is).

Normal is a dryer setting.  :)

BTW, this was a topic on Genderqueer Chat on yahoo. Most people were against it being part of lbg. I've of mixed views here (see above). OTOH, it places sex and gender together. People are already way confused by that.


--Jay Jay

I think it has to be enough JJ... I may not be well versed in things... but personally I don't see how people as a group can be accepted in the wide majority if they can't even accept being part of a smaller similar group.

Yes, you're probably right SourCandy. I do think this is one of those issues that can too easily be over-thought, if you know what I mean.

*nods* I know what you mean and I so do agree with that ^^

Quote from: dalebert on May 29, 2012, 04:22:11 PM
Some people mistake trans as being super gay...

The first line of your otherwise excellent post triggered this mind image for me:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-mIJ8iGZedlc%2FTb208sTkQPI%2FAAAAAAAAAAU%2FxKQzfDZm0b4%2Fs1600%2Fambiguously-gay-duo.jpg&hash=06a75e7339efecd82ecd5a43b3c77bdb27cdd6ab)

Super gays!

Ace & Gary rock!

Quote from: Jamie D on May 30, 2012, 12:24:13 PM
The first line of your otherwise excellent post triggered this mind image for me:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-mIJ8iGZedlc%2FTb208sTkQPI%2FAAAAAAAAAAU%2FxKQzfDZm0b4%2Fs1600%2Fambiguously-gay-duo.jpg&hash=06a75e7339efecd82ecd5a43b3c77bdb27cdd6ab)

Super gays!

HA!!!