Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Ok I havent really gotten any clear answers yet from anyone here or so far anyone on the internet. I have often been struggling with my identity, I would really like to be able to explore this further, but I cannot because I do not see how you can be a christian and a transgender. I have not found anything that can explain the following bible verses.

Quote
Deuteronomy 22:5
A woman must not put on men's clothing, and a man must not wear women's clothing. Anyone who does this is detestable in the sight of the LORD your God.
Leviticus 18:22
"Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.
Leviticus 20:13
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,
1 Timothy 1:10
The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching

So I really need to hear from some Christians, that have already discovered what these mean, and how to come to terms with being able to live as the sex they feel they are supposed to be. It is not enough for me to just do what I want, it has to be something God says I can do. I cannot just do a thing because it feels good, I really don't like the "I'm ok, your ok, everything is ok, there is no sin, do whatever feels good" response I have been getting. I need to be able to come to terms with this because I know in my heart that God and Satan exist. I know that the devil is very capable of pulling the wool over my eyes and deceiving me.

So Please I am begging you to help me make sense out of all this.

Is it a sin to do that if you fully and 100% believe everything written in the bible? Maybe (Which is by the way, a Book written by people long ago, re-translated, and re-interpreted), or are you going to follow the core principals?

Because I think if you believe in god/Jesus, follow the ten real rules, and be kind to your fellow man. Then you will be fine.

Edited: x3

Annah, our resident seminarian here at Susan's, could probably better answer questions regarding scripture. Here's my answer:

I disregard any part of the bible that seems to be against Jesus' message of love.

I follow few of the Laws that were given to Moses. I eat shellfish, pork, and other "unclean" foods. I work and travel more than 2000 yards on the Sabbath (between sunset Friday and sunset Saturday). I do not have a mezuzzah on my door post. I trim my hair, and wear garments of mixed material. My ex-wife was not a virgin when I married her, and I didn't stone her to death. And even though I was the one who seduced her before our wedding, I did not pay her father her dowry price.

And, I am out as a queer transgender person at my church, the Congregational Church of San Mateo (http://www.ccsm-ucc.org/), United Church of Christ (http://www.ucc.org/).

Basically, I'm no different a Christian now than I was before I started transition.

Being a Christian is to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. If you believe in him as your Lord and Savior then you are a Christian. Many of the OT rules have been deemed no longer applicable by God. Follow the NT. Try reading the book of Romans. Jesus teaches us to love everyone, and to accept everyone. Since He is the Son of God, then you should follow His teachings. He came here to save everyone. Not just the Isrealites whom God gave the rules in the oT to.

Quote from: Connie Anne link=topic=120625.msg937204#msg937204 date=1337880508

I disregard any part of the bible that seems to be against Jesus' message of love.

/quote]

That is an easy one:

"Rabbi, which is the greatest commandment in the Law? Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: "Love your neighbor as yourself." All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:34-40).

Of course, Jesus being a Jew knew about this commandment by hart as it is part of what is writen in his and any Jew Mezuzah:
"... thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might (Deuteronomy 6:4)" 

Whose bible anyway  :laugh:

Ok why are you all telling me to ignore the old testament? When I have only posted 1 scripture from there the rest are from the new testament, im sorry but none of you have truly answered my questions or addressed what this scriptures mean, the context they are in and the original greek translation, if it means anything different.

I appreciate the responses, but its not helping.

Hopefully, Annah will see this thread and comment. She's more educated than I am regarding contexts and such.

And, I didn't say to ignore the Old Testament, the Hebrew Scriptures. What I said is that I disregard anything that goes against the heart of Jesus' teachings as summed up by the Golden Rule and the Great Commandment. When I encounter anything from the prophets and patriarchs who precede Christ or the disciples and modern-day theologians who came afterwards that contradicts anything in the Golden Rule and the Great Commandment, then I disregard these things.

This works for me, but it doesn't mean that it will work for anyone else.

But if the disciples are filled with the holy spirit as Jesus gave them this gift , and if they follow the teaching themselves of Jesus, how can you disregard what they write? How can you disregard even Revelations, which written by John was a vision of the end times.

ConnieAnnie, I do hope Annah comes here and can explain it otherwise i will be truly lost and confused forever.

You're right what the bible says at least in its current translation to English , in today's context does scare me too, this is why I need to know if what is been said means something else entirely in those times compared to today.

I think it's safe to say that my take on being Christian doesn't quite mesh with the Christianity of others.

I don't expect any seat in heaven, purgatory, or hell when I die. I'm Christian because I believe being one helps me be better to the people around me.

Hmmm...

As overplayed as it is, I think this is probably the only answer I can give you.

John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son so that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

Christ died for our sins, if we have accepted Christ into our lives and heart He forgives our sins.

Ok here we go (it may be really long so I apologize)

First of all, yes the Old Testament is important. It is a collection of books that lets us peer into the past in long forgotten cultures and societies and it lets us glimpse into what people thought about concerning the Divine.

Before I go further, I must make clear some things:

1. I do not take the Bible literally. Meaning, I do not believe there was a literal flood that wiped out the entire earth for the exception of one male and female of every animal and Noah's family). I do not believe that Jonah was really swallowed by a fish. I do not believe in a literal Adam and Eve as the first two created human beings who walked in Eden. However:

2. I take the stories as truths. The best way I can explain this is the story of Abraham Lincoln. While it is not literally taken as truth that Abraham Lincoln walked barefooted in the snow two miles during a blizzard to return an overdue library book, I see the stories' spirit as true. It is a reflection upon the integrity and honesty that the author who came up with this story to portray Abraham Lincoln in a time of uncertainty for the United States. Likewise, I follow the same type of logic with the Old Testament. Many of these stories were not true in a form of literal narrative history but they are true in the meaning in which they were written. For example:

The Adam and Eve Story conveys a sense of why humanity suffers with evils of this world. It explains how sin was introduced into this world and the promises God gives the new humanity in a form of a covenant to protect them (i.e., giving them clothing, childbirth etc). Other stories share the same types of narratives and meanings.

The Prophetic Books do not relay a palm reading of the future but the consequences of stepping away from God along with the promise that God is slow to anger and quick to forgive.

The "Writings" such as Ruth and Esther conveys stories (whether they are true or not) about humanities desire to overcome obstacles in their own lives. The story of Jonah is a satire of other prophets with an ironic and dark twist.

I mention all of these things because if one were to take everything in the Bible literally, then you will go insane to try to honor everything....hence the reason why Jesus was so upset at the Pharisees. The Pharisees tried to follow every single law and rule and story as if it was real and relevant and prominent but they lost their own senses and neglected to take care of common sense issues that were staring them right in the face.

For example, if you followed the law and the code of all the books in the Old Testament you would either be dead, executed, stoned, or left to beg on the sides of the streets.

Fast forward to the New Testament:

Jesus said that ALL the LAWS and the PROPHETS were fulfilled by ONE commandment. To love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul and to love your neighbor as yourself. This one commandment, if followed, is the summarization of every law every written;  EVERYTHING every writer in the Old Testament wrote. Jesus never spoke against gays, lesbians, bisexuals, asexuals, transgenders, women, men, dogs, or cats. He simply said, according to Luke, if you love your God and your neighbor as yourself then you are granted eternal life.

Jesus never said, "you have to do this, or you cant crossdress, or you cant kiss (A) or (B)." He simply said to love your God and to love your neighbor.

Now to explain these "clobbering verses." Clobbering verses are used to preach out against LGBT people. Before I start, I also want to share with you that people had used "Clobbering verses" to preach for Slavery and to preach out against the issues that women wanted to vote. Clobbering verses were also used up until the 1980s (and currently in some southern States) to show that it is forbidden for a white person and a black person to get married. In conclusion, clobbering verses has been used for centuries by bigots to try to show that their own bigotry and hatred is backed up by scripture.

1. Clobbering Verse tactic 1: Sodom and Gomorrah.

Accusation: God had destroyed both cities because they enjoyed their homosexual lifestyle. That's where the term Sodomy came from right? It means gay sex....so thats why God killed them all.

Correction:  God did not kill the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah (actually..I do not think God killed anyone in that city...I believe it was a natural disaster where people said God did it). But back to the point: God did not kill the people here because they were gay. The cities were destroyed (according to scripture) because they repeatedly did horrible things against their guests for a very long time.

According to culture and society of the middle east in that time (and currently in some middle eastern countries), the treatment of your guests were as important as how you treated your God. The guest in these cities were to be treated with the utmost respect. They were to be given the finest foods (or even the last bit of food if you had very little), the best bed, and the best attention. Sodom and Gomorrah did not do that. They robbed their guests, they murdered them, they raped them (which is NOT being gay) and the tortured them. This was one of the most ultimate blasphemies of that time. This was well before the Hebrew people had the law where "Yahweh first."  The treatment of their guests were abhorrent. 

Sodomy in ancient Hebrew (Old Testament language) and in koine Greek (New Testament language) does not mean gay sex. It means a forceful sexual action against another man. Forceful male prostitution and male rape was Sodomy. It had nothing to do with sex between two consenting men or two consenting women. I have taken 4 years of Ancient Hebrew and 2 years of Koine Greek. 1st Corinthians 6:9 refers to forceful prostitution and temple sex of the pagan gods. It has nothing to do with homosexuality. In 1st Corinthians 6:9 there are only two translations that uses "homosexuality": The New International Version (an evangelical conservative translation) and the New American Standard Version. As we speak,. the New American Standard Version are re editing their translation and they are replacing "homosexuals" with "sodomite" which more accurately referred to what Paul was talking about by forcing a man into a prostitution ring (which in the Greek is Arsenoikoitus.......which does NOT mean consenting gay sex).

2. Clobbering Verse tactic 2: The Book of Leviticus

Accusation: The book of Leviticus forbids crossdressing and gay sex. It says it is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord.

Correction: Yes it does say it is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. But let's explore the other scripture in this book.

1. Tattoos are an abomination of the Lord (Lev 19:28)
2. Planting two different crops in the same field allows your neighbors to burn down your house (Lev 19:19)
3. If you wear two different fabrics in one clothing, that is just as bad as crossdressing (same chapter). So if you are wearing a cotton/polyester blend article of clothing you have just done something just as bad as crossdressing.
4. If you are mentally or physically disabled, then you are not allowed to go to church and worship God (Lev 21)
5. Lev 25:44 says it is in your right and a Godly thing to own slaves.
6. Eating shellfish (crabs, shrimp, and lobster) is an abomination to God

In conclusion, these laws were written for a culture long gone, to a society long gone, and it makes no sense in today's society.

Matter of fact, they made little sense in Jesus' time either. There was a story where Jesus healed someone on Sabbath. The Pharisee wanted to kill him right there because Jesus violated a Levitical law (oh no!) Jesus responded to the Pharisee as if he was saying to the Pharisee (open your eyes and use common sense). Would not a shepherd go and rescue a sheep that was hurt on the Sabbath? How much more so for the Son of Man to rescue one of God's children?

Jesus was using his own teachings by saying "love your God and love your neighbor as yourself." If you love your Neighbor, you will go and save them...even if it means breaking a levitical law. God isn't impressed by how many laws you kept today. God is impressed by how many people you loved today.

This is shown when Jesus told a story of some people who had died and Jesus did not know them. Jesus said, "these people were sick and you did not take care of them, they were hungry and you did not feed them. They were homeless and you did not give them shelter, they were in jail and you did not visit them. They were naked and you did not cloth them. Surely, I tell you, the least you have done to these people you have done to me also."

Hence why we go ALLLLL the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah. They treated their guests like animals. They did not love them as their neighbor. They did not feed them, they did not cloth them, they did not give them shelter. They raped them. The least they do to them, they do to God. In essence, and through the literary sense, these people were raping God. And you see a hint of that when they wanted to rape the angels.

Luke 10:25-28

Just then a lawyer stood up to test Jesus. 'Teacher,' he said, 'what must I do to inherit eternal life?'

He said to him, 'What is written in the law? What do you read there?'

He answered, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbour as yourself.'

And he said to him, 'You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.'


It cannot be more clearer. Love God and love your God.  Do this, and you will live.

The Old Testament is not to be ignored but to be fully realized in Christ. All the laws, all the rules, everything funneled down and was made obtainable, through Christ, where all of these laws were condense into loving someone other than yourself.

Wow!!! Annah, you have an amazing understanding of scriptute, and you are able to present it extremely well.

Annah thank you for your post, some things you said are clear but I would please ask if you could address specifically the scriptures I posted.

I thought I explained all of your scriptures (Deuteronomy and Leviticus are the same Holiness Code....just in a different book)

Did you read my comment?

I explained all of the verses you listed.

Ok i re-read it and I see that you did, but im still confused as to why if God knows that his book is his word, then why are you saying things like the flood didnt happen, why is that even in the bible if it never happened. Would not God see to it that his word is indeed written and given to us? Why am I suppose to all of the sudden not believe in the fact that God was unhappy and displeased with everyone sin, and started over again.

Because many people are conditioned into believing that the only way God exists is by taking the Bible literally word for word. If Bible literalists were to ever find out that a certain story in the Bible did not happen they their faith is shaken to the core and then they begin to doubt many things. It's the premise of the stories that convey the truth....not the words of the stories themselves.

For example. The Flood is a creation story that was told by many many many cultures and at least a thousand years before the Hebrew people told their version of the story. Many parts of the story were different but some were the same. For example, the Assyrian story of the flood, a demi god hero convinces the angry gods to spare some people. Other accounts, such as the Welsh and the Transylvanian accounts give a more worldly down to earth account. A "flood story" is a way to describe an event in which Gods of the heavens poured down their wraith to destroy humanity. Water was a very violent and fearful thing in the ancient world. Moreso than fire. Also, one can easily surmise that an actual flooding did occur when the Atlantic ocean filled the basin of what is now the Mediterranean Sea.

The Bible is full of many stories that other civilizations had as well. For example, even the Christ story emulates that of the story of Mithra.

Mithra was a God Son born in the Persian Empire and the story was told seven hundred years (and well documented) before the Christ story.

For example, Mithra was born of a virgin woman named Anahita on December 25th
Mithra was wrapped in swaddling clothes, placed in a manger and was attended by shepherds
Mithra had twelve companions
He performed miracles
Mithra died and sacrificed himself in the name of Peace
Mithra was resurrected three days later
He ascended into heaven

In the ancient Assyrian and Persian texts dated 600 BC, Mithra was called "The Way, the Truth, and the Light", "Te Redeemer", "The Savior", "The Messiah"

The day that Mithra followers worship him in on Sunday (which was called the Lord's Day)
They had a Eucharist and a Lord's supper
Mithras stressed baptism

Sounds familiar ;)

Does this mean I believe Jesus was a fake? By no means. There are two things I believe what had happened.

1. I believe that God gives us many people in this world to show us love through charity and that eternal life is granted through love.
2. Many many things about Jesus was added throughout the centuries. For example, Jesus did not come from a virgin mother. In the Old Testament (Isaiah) when the prophet proclaimed the Messiah's birth he mentioned the Messiah would come from a Young Hand Maiden. NOT a virgin. In the Ancient Hebrew, Isaiah says "Almah" which is hand maiden. If Isaiah wanted to say "virgin" he would had wrote "bethulah."

The Greeks at the time when they wrote the Old Testament in the Septuingent (LXX) they translated the word into "parthenos." In other words, they mistranslated it. However, world leaders of both ancient religions have concluded that it was not virgin but handmaiden. But, because of tradition for the last 1800 years, no one dared to changed it.

Sunday was the same way. Emperor Constantine used the stories of Mithras and the Roman's own pagan Sun Day holiday as the Lord's Day. Many cultures like that were merged.

Even with all of this said and done, it does not take away the validity of Christ's walk on earth, his message, and his power. Even the secular historian, Josephus (who wasn't a Christian)  made historical accounts of Jesus' ministry, death, and rumors of a resurrection. So I do believe in the history of Jesus. I believed he was the Hebrew Messiah from the lineage of David. However, what makes me a Progressive Christian is the fact that I do not believe that Jesus was the only one who walked this earth to give answers in a world that greatly needed them.

Don't take my word on this. I encourage anyone to research and to study these things for themselves. Not just by going on the internet but by going to Universities and asking questions, ask to see documents and manuscripts. And, if you have the time, to learn these ancient languages yourself.

It is because I studied all these religions without people trying to hide things from me or try to cover them up, that makes me respect my spirituality all the while.

Christianity isn't perfect. We've had our darkest moments for 1800 years starting with Constantine. There's nothing to really brag about. Christianity has done a real number against people in the name of eternity and of God.

But I need to make some things clear with this. Never, in all my life, have I ever blamed God or Christ. When an entire German village had their women all executed for witchcraft, or the crusades, or when the Pope turned an ignorant eye away from Hitler and Mussolini, I did not abandon who God is. Christ, through God, gave us all the moral responsibility to love one another.  If people truly loved one another then the Crusades would never had happened. The Salem Witch Trials would never had happened. The Spanish Inquisition would never had happened. Love is the most simplest commandment God has ever given to us but it is not to be treated lightly and it can be, at the same time, the most difficult commandment ever. To love your neighbor even when you think hating them would be justified.

As Ghandi pointed out, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians."

I read a commentary by Gandhi when he explained when he read the Sermon on the Mount. Gandhi wept and wondered why Christians did not do what Jesus preached. As a Hindu, Gandhi was more of a follower of Christ than the Archbishop of Canterbury was. Because Gandhi knew what it meant to love others.
Words cannot describe how alive the Bible becomes when you read it in it's original language. Read "Ruth" in Hebrew. It'll be like sitting down with a nice erotic novel.

You also need to keep in mind that the bible as it exist today is only a collection of the historic texts that people long ago deemed were the "true cannon" not really by any word of god. There are plenty of stories and variations of the stories in the bible that existed back then that are considered forgotten/non-cannon today. Ultimately the book is just a book with some of the important stories (and some let's be honest, some of the not as important),

It's not more important than the holy trinity. So in the end you have to ask yourself, Is the Bible your judge, or is Jesus?

yup

There was 23 Gospels before the councils narrowed it down to four (and four because three of them were taken from the same source).

Going to Seminary is a lot like going to Hogwarts.

You discover books that no muggle has ever seen or is afraid to read. You learn things no muggle has ever been taught.

Which is a tragedy. Every Christian should learn the things I had learned.

I recommend a book called "The Dishonest Church." It doesn't take that long to read and it talks about how so many pastors learn about Christianity the correct way in Seminary but will then get a job in a church and then teach it how people always "understood it as."

Very good book

Ok I looked into Mithra and while it makes sense, i also found the following text :

Quotethere is no need for any of the Christian writers to borrow from anything other than the Old Testament source in order to establish any Christian doctrine concerning Jesus. If the argument that pagan mythologies predated Christian teachings and therefore Christianity borrowed from them is true, then it must also be truth that the pagan religions borrowed from the Jewish religion because it is older than they are! Given that all of the Christian themes are found in the Old Testament and the Old Testament was begun around 2000 B.C. and completed around 400 B.C., we can then conclude that these pagan religions actually borrowed from Jewish ideas found in the Old Testament. Think about it, the idea of a blood sacrifice and a covering for sin is found in the first three chapters of Genesis when God covered Adam and Eve with animals skins and prophesied the coming of the Messiah.

I got that from this page here

http://carm.org/christianity/bible/doesnt-religion-mithra-prove-christianity-false (http://carm.org/christianity/bible/doesnt-religion-mithra-prove-christianity-false)



Ok Mary was not a virgin? Ok but what about immaculate conception? To say that Jesus was also the seed of Joseph would negate the power of God being able to just make Mary Pregnant via the Holy Spirit.

yup. It's a viscous cycle ins't it lol

In all honesty, we do not know exactly who borrowed what from who (although Mithra story was written centuries before Jesus' story).

But just as a side note, Pagan religions has been around for thousands of years before the Hebrew concept of Monotheism.

Abraham was a pagan as Abram in the city of Ur. They too had blood sacrifices ...which was around 500 years before it became the method of sanctification for the Jewish people at the first passover the night before Moses departure from to the Promise Land from Egypt.

The best I can tell you is have faith. It is my belief that all of these spiritualit"ies" came from God as long as they promoted love and charity. Many pagan religions were/are very charitable and loving so I have no quarrel from them (and a Spiral Dance every now and then is good for the soul :)

When it comes to your sexuality, I advise yourself to have faith too. You will eat yourself up trying to find a  verse that specifically says "And Jesus loved the Transgender and said 'Well Done My Good and Faithful Servant'"

At the same time, take heart that Jesus will not condemn or forsake you because of your gender or sexuality. Remember, reading the Bible just by reading it isn't the same thing as "figuring it all out."

You can read Grey's Anatomy until you have it memorized but you wouldn't know the first thing about successfully completing a triple bypass heart surgery. What I am saying is, there is MUCH more to the Bible than just reading it in an English translation you bought in a bookstore.

1st Corinthians and 1s Timothy when read at face value sounds anti homosexual. However, when you read it in it's original language, when you read it in the time of the social infrastructure (Exegesis and Hermeneutics), and when you read it through the understandings of the author's eyes, these passages say completely different things.

For example, read 1 Timothy 2:10-16 for me:

Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

If you read that on surface level, what opinions do you get about women?

Should they be silent and in full submission because it was Eve who deceived the world and became the transgressor and not Adam?

Is the only way a woman can receive salvation is through bearing children on top of being submissive?

Can you see what happens when people take a verse and bend it to their own will? What would a misogynistic man who think women should have babies and keep her mouth shut say about this verse? Well, they use this verse ALL THE TIME.

What about this verse (1 Corinthians 14:34):

women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says.

What do you think Paul is saying when he wrote that? Would you say this verse to a female pastor and then say she needs to be quiet and let a man preach?

Think about these questions whenever you read the verses about what you interpret to be against homosexuality. As Hasbro once said "there's more than meets the eye."

QuoteOk Mary was not a virgin? Ok but what about immaculate conception? To say that Jesus was also the seed of Joseph would negate the power of God being able to just make Mary Pregnant via the Holy Spirit.

This is one of those beliefs that you can believe this if you want. I will think no differently if you believed she was a virgin.

With that said, let me ask you a question :)

Why would Jesus be any less divine if it was not an immaculate conception?

Why cannot the son of God begotten eternally before time existed and was still born of Mary and Joseph?

Also, remember, it was through Joseph's lineage that made Christ a descendant of King David, thus fulfilling the promise God said to David.

If Jesus was not from Joseph, during this patriarchal age (and current scientific standard), then that promise would not have been fulfilled because Jesus would not have been biologically related to Joseph.  Also, the lineages were purported down via the men (for example, it was through Boaz's seed that their great grandson was David....not Ruth).

I say, if God is the creator of the Universe and supreme God of everything and anything and all creation God created, then I would not be given God much credit by saying God could not have Christ begotten through a man and a woman.  And I know, one could easily say, "then the Creator of the Universe could make a virgin woman pregnant too!"

I one hundred percent agree with that statement...but the scriptures in their original language says nothing about being a virgin so why would I accept she was a virgin? Because a Greek scribe made a mistake 2300 years ago?

btw, I love your Zebra Finches :)

Thank, you , those aren't my actual finches, I use to have some, now I only have Parakeets. I was thinking of breeding birds at one time and maybe still will.

Ok, well we know that it is said here:

QuoteMatthew 1:18-25

Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly. But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

So could one look at this way? Maybe the holy spirit caused Joseph's sperm to be magically transported in to Mary's egg?

I dunno it still seems to me it was because Joseph was worried someone else slept with Mary and that that were not married

You said the following:

QuoteHowever, what makes me a Progressive Christian is the fact that I do not believe that Jesus was the only one who walked this earth to give answers in a world that greatly needed them.

It is my belief that all of these spiritualit"ies" came from God as long as they promoted love and charity. Many pagan religions were/are very charitable and loving so I have no quarrel from them

Then why did Jesus say "I am the way"?

QuoteJohn 14:6
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

and why did God say via the Holy Spirit, through the disciples writings

Quote1 Corinthians 12:2
You know that when you were still pagans, you were led astray and swept along in worshiping speechless idols.

Quote1 Corinthians 10:7
or worship idols as some of them did. As the Scriptures say, "The people celebrated with feasting and drinking, and they indulged in pagan revelry."

Sorry, but I am having a very hard time understanding why I should be accepting any other religion or sect or belief or worship of a God or Goddess. I would need some clarification on that please.

Hello ShawntoShawnna,

Then why did Jesus say "I am the way"?

Hereis the verse in context

John 14:5-14
5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.


Going back to your original post the explanation is in Leviticus 20:22-26

22 "'Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. 24 But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the Lord your God, who has set you apart from the nations.

25 "'You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those that I have set apart as unclean for you. 26 You are to be holy to me because I, the Lord, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

They were not to live as the other nations did. They were to be set apart as being different. One of the main things was it that it was used in the other nations "worship" They often used temple prostitutes both male and female as a form of "worship".

So it really had a two fold purpose one was to keep them from going down that path and the other was
to keep them from being in agreement with the other nations that this was a good thing.

On the other verses notice that it say it's those who practice sexual impurity or homosexuality,(please note it includes all sexual sins outside of marriage)

If God says something is wrong He has a reason for it. If homosexuality is ok with God shouldn't there be evidence that it's good for us,it's healthy for us and does not lead to an early death?

Now that being said why is it that the AMA (American Medical Association) a non religious or moral entity
claims that homosexuality is HIGH RISK behavior? Why is it that very few that state it's a good thing will NOT tell anyone of the risks? Why is there a higher to much higher percentage of homosexual males then heterosexual males that have the following Anal Cancer,Chlamydia trachomatis,Cryptosporidium,Giardia lamblia,Herpes simplex virus,Human immunodeficiency virus,Human papilloma virus,Isospora belli,  Microsporidia,Gonorrhea,Viral hepatitis types B & C and Syphilis? Some of the above are almost only found in the homosexual population, 85% of the syphilis case are found in the homosexual population.
Why do they have a syndrome named "gay bowel"? And also included problems include hemorrhoids,anal fissures,anorectal trauma, and retained foreign bodies. And include into that sexually transmitted infections that are not generally spread through sexual contact. These diseases, with consequences that range from severe and even life-threatening to mere annoyances, include Hepatitis A, Entamoeba histolytica, Epstein-Barr virus, Neisseria meningitides, Shigellosis, Salmonellosis, Pediculosis, scabies,Campylobacter and Typhoid.

Does this really point to the fact that it's a good thing or does it maybe just maybe show that what God said is true? It can only come through an act.

Could it be that for a transgender that celibacy may just be the best option?


Shawntoshawnna I will come back to this as it is very late here and I would like to relate my journey so far and how God is working this out in me.

Sarah

Sarah many gay men are getting orchy's (testes removal) because they are tired of sex and only want the relationships. Its not everywhere but it was pretty big back in phila pa when i use to live there. My Dr who removed mine also told me of this. Myself i never could understand doing anal sex as it seemed so dirty to me and i also never liked my own penis i surly didn't want another one near me. Today i am basically a celibate / non sexual except for dreams and i am fine with that. It has been that way since i transitioned back in the late 90's. I do think lust is written in the bible as something that we need to be concerned. I do like mathew 19:12 which talks about those who were born different of the mothers womb and those who were made different by man (eunuchs) and those who give up sex for the glory of god. 

Quote from: Amazon D on May 25, 2012, 05:16:07 AM
Sarah many gay men are getting orchy's (testes removal) because they are tired of sex and only want the relationships. Its not everywhere but it was pretty big back in phila pa when i use to live there. My Dr who removed mine also told me of this. Myself i never could understand doing anal sex as it seemed so dirty to me and i also never liked my own penis i surlky didn't want another one near me. Today i am basically a celibate / non sexual except for dreams and i am fine with that. It has been that way since i transitioned back in the late 90's. I do think lust is written in the bible as something that we need to be concerned. I do like mathew 19:12 which talks about those who were born different of the mothers womb and those who were made different by man (eunuchs) and those who give up sex for the glory of god.

I can be thankful that the drive was never very strong in me. I will never understand what is so good about sex. When one is at the point that bowling is more enjoyable than the act it usually means that it's not that big of a deal for that person. I am fine without it. It was very easy for me to give it up without surgery. At the same time though I can not speak to those who have a very strong drive as I can not relate how to deal with it from that point.

I do want to come back to what I had started late last night but it may be a while as I do have a bit of work to do today.

Quote from: SarahM777 on May 25, 2012, 01:02:44 AM

If God says something is wrong He has a reason for it. If homosexuality is ok with God shouldn't there be evidence that it's good for us,it's healthy for us and does not lead to an early death?

Now that being said why is it that the AMA (American Medical Association) a non religious or moral entity
claims that homosexuality is HIGH RISK behavior? Why is it that very few that state it's a good thing will NOT tell anyone of the risks? Why is there a higher to much higher percentage of homosexual males then heterosexual males that have the following Anal Cancer,Chlamydia trachomatis,Cryptosporidium,Giardia lamblia,Herpes simplex virus,Human immunodeficiency virus,Human papilloma virus,Isospora belli,  Microsporidia,Gonorrhea,Viral hepatitis types B & C and Syphilis? Some of the above are almost only found in the homosexual population, 85% of the syphilis case are found in the homosexual population.

Why do they have a syndrome named "gay bowel"? And also included problems include hemorrhoids,anal fissures,anorectal trauma, and retained foreign bodies. And include into that sexually transmitted infections that are not generally spread through sexual contact. These diseases, with consequences that range from severe and even life-threatening to mere annoyances, include Hepatitis A, Entamoeba histolytica, Epstein-Barr virus, Neisseria meningitides, Shigellosis, Salmonellosis, Pediculosis, scabies,Campylobacter and Typhoid.

Does this really point to the fact that it's a good thing or does it maybe just maybe show that what God said is true? It can only come through an act.

Could it be that for a transgender that celibacy may just be the best option?

Sarah

Sarah, I really did not want to get into this conversation because, while I consider myself quite spiritual, I don't buy into dogmatic religions in the first place and the idea of an old man in a night shirt watching my every move I find ludicrous. 

And Sarah, please know that I am not calling you out.  I am not trying to start a flame war (which is forbidden here), nor am I taking issue with you as a person.  I take issue with the statement above.

The information you allude to from the American Medical Association is from studies made decades ago when HIV was little understood and information was scant.

The nature of science is to evolve knowledge, not to keep it static.  And the AMA is one of the most rigorous of scientific bodies.  Their statements and body of understanding has grown and evolved a great deal in the intervening time.

Yes, by every study, HIV is more prevalent among the LGBT community (of whom you and I are a part).  But interestingly enough, the rate of infection among gay men is dropping overall, but the rate of infection of HIV and other STD's is increasing among heteronormative groups.  Primarily due to the fact that the practice of unprotected sex has decreased dramatically among the gay and lesbian community.  Yes, lesbians can contract STD's too.

You seem to be trying to make a connection between unprotected, primarily male, non-heteronormative intercourse, disease, and the bible's admonition against homosexuality, again primarily male-male.

This was one of the first things those in the more fundamentalist branches of dogmatic religion, christian and non-christian alike, claimed when HIV first started to come into social consciousness.  It was punishment from god.  God was enforcing Biblical/Talmudic/Islamic/whatever laws against icky gay people.  For some really amusing over the top statements, check out some of the things Pat Roberson has had to say on the subject.

This is the same as what has been said by those same groups about Katrina being god's punishment to all those Sodom-Gomorric activities that were going on in Louisiana.  Of course not mentioning all the collateral damage done to innocent people devastated by this force of nature.  It would seem that god paints with a very big brush.

I would caution you against trying to isolate yourself from the larger LGBT community.  We transsexuals are a minority within a minority and trying to claim that you are not gay because you have never had intercourse with another male does nothing to raise you in the eyes of those same fundamentalists.  They will still hate you and use their interpretation of their particular dogmatic religious document as justification to vilify you and, in more extreme cases, use it as justification to KILL you.

Our association with the larger LGBT community provides us with a voice that would otherwise not be heard.  Because of the advocacy on our behalf from the many non-trans groups, we trans-people have received benefits we would have not otherwise even been able to dream of.

Additionally, the AMA and American Psychological Association has specifically called for the elimination of transsexuality as a mental dysfunction and said that it is a condition, just like same sex attraction and doesn't need to be "cured".  And that insurance companies must cover transsexual diagnosis and treatment, including therapy, hormones, and surgery.

Also "gay-bowel" is an outdated term and currently considered derogatory.  It is no longer used as a medical diagnosis, is not gay-specific, confined to the bowel, nor a syndrome.

Sexual orientation and gender identity are two separate and non-related parts of the overall expression of human sexuality.

Otherwise, no matter what you claim, you are simultaneously gay and straight no matter who you have a relationship with.  If you have a relationship with a male, for example, you could be considered gay because you were born with outdoor plumbing and society gave you the blue blanket.  But you could also consider yourself straight because inside you know you are a woman and since you are in a relationship with a male, you could consider yourself hetero-normal.  Quite a conundrum.

And Shawnna, it would seem that you are looking for a page in the bible that you may have somehow missed that says god is alright with you being transsexual.  Sorry, it's not there.  Nor in the Talmud, nor in Al-Qur'an, I've looked.

The spiritual path we must follow is harder than most.  We are faced with so many obstructions along the way.  Family, society, religion all say, in one form or another, that we are wrong, yet in our hearts we know that we are not.

And the search for that-which-passeth-all-understanding is in our hearts, not in any book.  We know sin when we see it or do it, because we know it is wrong, not because someone else says it is, we know.

Shawnna, your search for some signpost that says you are doing the right thing will also be shown to you in your heart.  You will know you are doing the right thing, no matter what you decide, because you know it to be right, it will be shown to you in your heart, not read to you.

While I am well read, I am no bible scholar.  Though I know those who are and are ministers of faith.  And some also who are ministers AND trans.  And they have all said pretty much the same thing.  God, however you envision  that entity, speaks in your heart.

I would really not like to comment further on this thread, nor upon the statements I have made here because I am not scholarly on religion and do not wish to be trying to define the difference between the KJ and NIV versions of the bible and what it means to us.  I have had my say and that is that.

But both Sarah, and Shawnna, I love and support you both.  We come here for support and community and we, and I(!), accept all without hesitation.

-Sandy

Quote from: Mathew 5:175:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them."

Jesus said the law no longer mattered.

Also this is a good website on Jesus and Homosexuality and  Transsexuality. http://jesusonhomosexuality.com/#Paul (http://jesusonhomosexuality.com/#Paul)

It seems that sexuality and gender are being conflated here, which only confuses the issue.

The prohibitions in Deuteronomy are not a problem really.
If we accept that a transsexual woman is a woman, then she is cross-dressing only if she wears mens clothes.  And, having sex with a man is straight not gay. 

As I am currently an atheist Existentialist  I have no trouble being a lesbian, or with anyone else's orientation or gender anyway.

Karen.

I forgot to add something that I think is important regarding the immaculate conception.

QuoteMatthew 1:18
This is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit.

QuoteMatthew 1:25
But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.
but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus. (some translations)

In regards to everything that has been said so far, and everything I have read and whats in my heart, I still have to tell you that warning sirens, bells and whistles are going off in my head. I feel like the Holy Spirit is telling me to run away, very quickly, before I become deceived, and start accepting certain things and then as time would progress be so caught up under its control that I would not be able to or want to turn back. We are talking about my eternal life here , for those of you that don't believe , this is not a light thing to be just swept under the rug here. We only get to live for 100 years or so at best. I would rather spend 100 years of living with my current state, than risk having to spend an eternity in hell, separated from God, not because he wanted me to go there, but because he cannot simply allow any kind of sin into heaven. Only Good can exist there in heaven. You know I really would like to believe what you have layed before me , Annah, It would be so simple to just accept everything and anyones ideas, and follow the wide path, which is easy, its the narrow path that is hard.

But again if it is supposed to be right and something I can do, why do I still feel convicted not to do this thing, why do I still feel guilty, why do i still feel like I would be betraying my family and hurting them if I did this thing?

No matter what anyone says, if it is not right for you, no matter what the reasons are for not being right, you should not do it. This is a very personnal decission that you should only make with the purest of intentions in your heart. No matter what you choose, I wish you all the best.

Quote from: ShawnTOShawnna on May 25, 2012, 09:30:40 AM
I forgot to add something that I think is important regarding the immaculate conception.

In regards to everything that has been said so far, and everything I have read and whats in my heart, I still have to tell you that warning sirens, bells and whistles are going off in my head. I feel like the Holy Spirit is telling me to run away, very quickly, before I become deceived, and start accepting certain things and then as time would progress be so caught up under its control that I would not be able to or want to turn back. We are talking about my eternal life here , for those of you that don't believe , this is not a light thing to be just swept under the rug here. We only get to live for 100 years or so at best. I would rather spend 100 years of living with my current state, than risk having to spend an eternity in hell, separated from God, not because he wanted me to go there, but because he cannot simply allow any kind of sin into heaven. Only Good can exist there in heaven. You know I really would like to believe what you have layed before me , Annah, It would be so simple to just accept everything and anyones ideas, and follow the wide path, which is easy, its the narrow path that is hard.

But again if it is supposed to be right and something I can do, why do I still feel convicted not to do this thing, why do I still feel guilty, why do i still feel like I would be betraying my family and hurting them if I did this thing?

Heed the warning. This path is NOT for you. If you go down this path you will regret it in the long run and it will pull you away from God. Those warnings are there for a reason and He knows that this is not good for you and you may not be able to bear up under it. Hold on to Him and let Him lead you. God will get you through this.

I've been a "Queer" Pastor long enough (and a fundamentalist Pastor long enough) to realize there may be more to this thread than a sincere transgender person who is truly afraid of their eternity. This thread is beginning to feel like a chapter right out of http://www.monergismbooks.com/Tactics-A-Game-Plan-for-Discussing-Your-Christian-Convictions-p-18253.html (http://www.monergismbooks.com/Tactics-A-Game-Plan-for-Discussing-Your-Christian-Convictions-p-18253.html).

I really hope I'm wrong but if I am not, this will not be the first or last thread where something like this has happened.

I have seen more threads than I can care to count where someone comes along and post "i am troubled over my gender/sexuality because of these verses" and then they see if people will know enough to actually hold a conversation around these clobbering verses.

I could not have been more clear on my first post in this thread. But the OP is saying he feels the Holy Spirit is telling him he's being deceived. I've worked in the Assemblies of God long enough to recognize this may be internet evangelism to the LGBT community.

Like I said, I hope I am wrong but I've seen this method used countless of times that tells me otherwise.

Quote from: Annah on May 25, 2012, 12:07:36 PM
I've been a "Queer" Pastor long enough (and a fundamentalist Pastor long enough) to realize there may be more to this thread than a sincere transgender person who is truly afraid of their eternity. This thread is beginning to feel like a chapter right out of http://www.monergismbooks.com/Tactics-A-Game-Plan-for-Discussing-Your-Christian-Convictions-p-18253.html (http://www.monergismbooks.com/Tactics-A-Game-Plan-for-Discussing-Your-Christian-Convictions-p-18253.html).

I really hope I'm wrong but if I am not, this will not be the first or last thread where something like this has happened.

I have seen more threads than I can care to count where someone comes along and post "i am troubled over my gender/sexuality because of these verses" and then they see if people will know enough to actually hold a conversation around these clobbering verses.

I could not have been more clear on my first post in this thread. But the OP is saying he feels the Holy Spirit is telling him he's being deceived. I've worked in the Assemblies of God long enough to recognize this may be internet evangelism to the LGBT community.

Like I said, I hope I am wrong but I've seen this method used countless of times that tells me otherwise.

Yes i have to agree with you Annah

it does seem that some people come here to play games with our heads. as for my response it was just who i am and it was not meant to condemn anyone but to speak about my life and experience..

Quote from: SarahM777 on May 25, 2012, 01:02:44 AM

On the other verses notice that it say it's those who practice sexual impurity or homosexuality,(please note it includes all sexual sins outside of marriage)

If God says something is wrong He has a reason for it. If homosexuality is ok with God shouldn't there be evidence that it's good for us,it's healthy for us and does not lead to an early death?

Now that being said why is it that the AMA (American Medical Association) a non religious or moral entity
claims that homosexuality is HIGH RISK behavior? Why is it that very few that state it's a good thing will NOT tell anyone of the risks? Why is there a higher to much higher percentage of homosexual males then heterosexual males that have the following Anal Cancer,Chlamydia trachomatis,Cryptosporidium,Giardia lamblia,Herpes simplex virus,Human immunodeficiency virus,Human papilloma virus,Isospora belli,  Microsporidia,Gonorrhea,Viral hepatitis types B & C and Syphilis? Some of the above are almost only found in the homosexual population, 85% of the syphilis case are found in the homosexual population.
Why do they have a syndrome named "gay bowel"? And also included problems include hemorrhoids,anal fissures,anorectal trauma, and retained foreign bodies. And include into that sexually transmitted infections that are not generally spread through sexual contact. These diseases, with consequences that range from severe and even life-threatening to mere annoyances, include Hepatitis A, Entamoeba histolytica, Epstein-Barr virus, Neisseria meningitides, Shigellosis, Salmonellosis, Pediculosis, scabies,Campylobacter and Typhoid.

Does this really point to the fact that it's a good thing or does it maybe just maybe show that what God said is true? It can only come through an act.

Could it be that for a transgender that celibacy may just be the best option?

This is so wrong on so many levels.

There's so many holes in your logic, it isn't worth the effort to even explain it.

Are you serious? Do you think I would come in here and just do this to trap people into something? If you are filled with the holy spirit and have the power of discernment (not everyone has this gift though) , then your heart would let you know I really am in pain, and that I have really struggled with this, I was 10 years old when I first wore my mothers clothing and I don't even remember how i was able to do it without her knowing, not to mention the fact that it felt natural and normal to me, and soft and relaxing, i was 10, i was not even thinking about women or sex, all i wanted to do was play and be a kid.


I am only asking for more clarity on things, I just cant accept that Mary was not a virgin and that there was no immaculate conception, i can however accept a lot of what you say. In fact your the 1st person to even address my problems and for that I am thankful Annah.

Quote from: ShawnTOShawnna on May 25, 2012, 12:38:08 PM
Are you serious? Do you think I would come in here and just do this to trap people into something? If you are filled with the holy spirit and have the power of discernment (not everyone has this gift though) , then your heart would let you know I really am in pain, and that I have really struggled with this, I was 10 years old when I first wore my mothers clothing and I don't even remember how i was able to do it without her knowing, not to mention the fact that it felt natural and normal to me, and soft and relaxing, i was 10, i was not even thinking about women or sex, all i wanted to do was play and be a kid.


I am only asking for more clarity on things, I just cant accept that Mary was not a virgin and that there was no immaculate conception, i can however accept a lot of what you say. In fact your the 1st person to even address my problems and for that I am thankful Annah.

ShawnTOShawnna

I've seen this for far too long that I just cant dismiss it. I will remain naturally cautious. This isn't personal with you but I've seen this happen before and its almost textbook. So if you aren't then you aren't. If you are then you are. At this point I remain neutral on the subject.

1. The Immaculate conception has nothing to do with your gender or sexuality. So, if I were you, I wouldn't even be wrapping your head around this one. If you believe Mary was a virgin then believe it. The virgin issue has nothing to do with how you are feeling as a transgender person so there really is no need to debate that.

2.  God isn't going to show you a miraculous verse to show you in black and white that you wearing women's clothing is going to be right or wrong. You need to rely on others who have some background on this issue. Trust me when I say this, Jesus could care less with what you are wearing. What he cares about is how you are treating people, how you put your faith in him and trust him. Jesus was more in awe over the lilies of the field moreso than the clothing of Solomon. You wearing a dress or changing gender isn't going to sink you to hell.

3. You must know the difference between the Holy Spirit and your guilt. You say you feel the Holy Spirit is telling you that you are being deceived here (and regrettably another person is telling you to run away from here).

What you are feeling is not the Holy Spirit telling you that you are being deceived. You are telling yourself you are being deceived by the guilt you have from wanting to be a girl because it goes against everything you were taught.

Some accusers once approached Jesus and called him Beelzebub, the Devil. Jesus replied, why would the Devil pretend to be the Son of Man to perform miracles in the name of God? His own house would fall if he did that!

Likewise, if I am being used for Satan, then why is it that my years behind the pulpit, with God's intervening nature of Love, brought many under his own flock? Would satan use me to grow the Kingdom of God? No. His own house would fall.

I've seen gay Pentecostals that had the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that would rival a Benny Henn crusade. I have seen LGBT people do wonderful and miraculous things in the name of Christ.

It's up to you to accept that on faith just as you believe in Christ through faith. No one here can force you or convince you into believing one way or the other. That's a step of faith that only you can do.

God helped me transition and no longer suffer that sex drive that use to be a burdon and weigh me down.

I can now be me and that means 24/7/365 i can follow the theme of 1st samual 16:7

7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

worry not for the exterior of people and let god judge the heart and all will be as God desires

now if you have a personal issue with your exterior due to how people are judging you or you are judging yourself then know that we are here to help in that regard but as for judging your heart that is between you and God alone

Myself i have transitioned past gender to the spirit below the shell. However i had to change the exterior for me to fully understand that. For that i thank God for my transitioning.

Yes, Amazon D I will let you know something else that bothers me and has kept me from following God the way I should, I have had a constant problem with wanting to have sex, whether it be playing with myself or fantasizing or wanting to be in a relationship, in fact so bad that i have realized i better get married and have 1 partner so that i can stop burning with lust, and even beyond that just be able to completely get rid of having to think about sex all the time so i can focus on matters of the spirit

Quote from: ShawnTOShawnna on May 25, 2012, 01:36:54 PM
Yes, Amazon D I will let you know something else that bothers me and has kept me from following God the way I should, I have had a constant problem with wanting to have sex, whether it be playing with myself or fantasizing or wanting to be in a relationship, in fact so bad that i have realized i better get married and have 1 partner so that i can stop burning with lust, and even beyond that just be able to completely get rid of having to think about sex all the time so i can focus on matters of the spirit

no one woman or many women will ever solve that problem. you have to be brave and take that first step and getting rid of that drive that is taking you on a rollercoaster of hell..

I remember when i first took my HRT and two weeks went by and i thought to myself.. wow i haven't touched myself in two weeks... that took me back to prepuberty before that rollercoaster of hell started... i was free and i could go back and relive that lost childhood that was detoured to hell.  I quickly went out and as soon as possible i had my orchy (testes removal) by 3 months HRT.. I never looked back.. I was free.. I then could give my lil girl / child time to regrow up.. i am now 14 yrs post op and still a virgin and god has freed me from that hell... I can only share what God has given me .. its up to you to take the steps needed to get back to that pre puberty place..

here is a web site where you can read about many of those years.. and know my words to be true..

http://web.archive.org/web/20050205065104/hometown.aol.com/danielegrl/ (http://web.archive.org/web/20050205065104/hometown.aol.com/danielegrl/)

however know that i did get mislead for a few yrs post op thinking i needed another to love me,, but soon i realized that was all a part of this superficail world and so i have transitioned past gender to the spirit below the shell.

go find your inner child and know its not what you think now because you are filled with a clouded vision due to the drugs (testosterone) that stream thru your body..

today i have one foot in this world and one in the next and when i am called i will be ready at anytime.. 24/7/365

Now remember what you suffer is yours alone as was mine so do not go judging another..

TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE 


PS: I do have two sons but in a way i do not because i surrendered them to their mothers and they are healthy and i support them but love them from afar.. i also have two kids i support one thru www.worldvison.org (http://www.worldvison.org) and another thru www.childfund.org (http://www.childfund.org) so there are many children needing to be cared for but it just might not be meant for you to do it in person as i wasn't for me.

Quote from: Brooke777 on May 24, 2012, 12:41:21 PM
Being a Christian is to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. If you believe in him as your Lord and Savior then you are a Christian. Many of the OT rules have been deemed no longer applicable by God. Follow the NT. Try reading the book of Romans. Jesus teaches us to love everyone, and to accept everyone. Since He is the Son of God, then you should follow His teachings. He came here to save everyone. Not just the Isrealites whom God gave the rules in the oT to.

I think Brooke's answer is very good. I am a devout Christian. I cannot explain away the scriptures that people apply to gender identity. This is what I did.

• I didn't disregard the Bible, but tried to put things into context accepting that my understanding of the Bible and God was limited, but I didn't want that to stand in the way of more important matters.
  
  When I accepted myself, and began transitioning, I discovered that I had been very traumatized as a child growing up and that it wasn't gender identity but identity of myself that I was transitioning. You never know who you really are until you sometimes take dramatic steps.
  
  This has allowed a lot of healing to take place.
  
  This did not happen before because I could never be genuine with myself and subsequently with Jesus.
  
  Because I am able to better understand myself I can be genuine and honest.
  
  My walk is closer with Jesus now because of the healing that has occurred.
  
  I may or may not be right, but I am willing to take responsibility for my actions in front of God because I am doing the best I can with the life I was given.

Testosterone is a drug? What about FTM is that any different? Or are you saying that having the wrong hormone in my body is the drug thats affecting me?

Quote from: ShawnTOShawnna on May 25, 2012, 02:21:49 PM
Testosterone is a drug? What about FTM is that any different? Or are you saying that having the wrong hormone in my body is the drug thats affecting me?

DING DING DING  we have a WINNER

I am a christian transman.  And, whoever wants to argue what parts of the Bible are wrong or right...is just picking and choosing what they want to believe.  Putting away the parts that don't adhere to their life.  I do take the Bible literally and I also prayed for many years before making my transition.  Who am I?  This is what God's word tells me.  Anyone wants to argue the point...then your fight is with God...not me.
I am a child of God
I am loved by God, unconditionally.
I am strong, knowing that I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
I have the spirit of power, of love and of a sound mind.
I am peaceful, knowing that God provides for all my needs.
I am content, knowing that nothing comes into my life that first, doesn't pass through my Savior's hands.
I am joyful, knowing that nothing can pluck me out of God's hands.
I am blessed, knowing that God never fails.  His ways are higher and better than mine.
I am the righteousness of God through Christ Jesus.
I am worthy.  God chose me before the foundation of the earth.
I am healthy.  By Christ's stripes I am healed.
I am hopeful.  Knowing that God has a good plan and purpose for my life.
I am an heir and joint heir with Christ.
I am bought with a price and beloved.
I am indwelled by the Holy Spirit.  The same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead. 
I am fearless, knowing that God is my light, my shield, my protector.  Who can be against me?
I am forgiven.  Through the precious blood of Christ.....I am whiter than snow.
I am an overcomer.   Christ has already overcome the world.
I am victorious.  Greater is He who lives in me, than he who lives in the world.
I am thankful.  Knowing I have a home.  Waiting for me. 

I am, loved, strong, peaceful, content, joyful, blessed, worthy, healthy, an heir, fearless, forgiven, an overcomer, victorious, thankful, indwelled by the Holy Spirit,
I AM A CHILD OF GOD!
Thank You Lord, for loving me so. 

Quote from: ShawnTOShawnna on May 25, 2012, 02:21:49 PM
Testosterone is a drug? What about FTM is that any different? Or are you saying that having the wrong hormone in my body is the drug thats affecting me?

Between your 4-6 week of gestation one or all of the following things happen in some areas of your brain, specifically the basal nucleus of the stria terminalis (BNST), and they were: deficient or absent Aromatase protein, deficient estrogen and/or estrogen receptors, and/or low or absent level of testosterone and/or estrogen, and or presence of xenoestrogens. The consequence of this genetic disregulations is that certain areas of your embryonic brain failed or were only partially masculinized. One of this area is the are responsible for or in charge of defining your gender.

As someone who has discovered that, technically, I am Jewish through my mothers side of the family, and disregarding the fact that I have no need of belief in anything supernatural I must respectfully request that Christians please stick to their own scripture and leave the Torah alone. 

Trying to co-opt the Jewish books is effectively another attempt to erase the Jews from history. 

Karen.

I come from a Jewish family, justmeinoz. I am the third christian in my family. My grandfather being the first.

Most of my Hebrew Scripture were taught to me are Jewish scholars and Rabbi. Everything that i stated concerning the Hebrew Scripture was stated and taught to me by Rabbi of many backgrounds. Even at my seminary. Even todays Rabbi will tell you its impossible to follow every law and they too focus on Deuteronomy "love your neighbor love your God"

So when i talk of the Hebrew text i talk based on my upbringing in te jewish heritage plus my education under many rabbi. And i disagree fully that discussing new testament and hebrew scripture erases Jewish history

Hi again Annah, i introduced myself in the introductions thread, even posted a few pictures of what I look like currently (last one was a few years ago)

Ok well now someone just presented this argument to me on a christian forum.

QuoteIt is very clear we are not to have sex until we marry. Homosexuals are people who chose to have sex before they married

I would argue with them that even straight people do this. However as a Christian  I have also always been taught this. I did in fact have sex before marriage even after becoming a Christian, and felt guilty about it later. I would also have to think there are some gay unions that choose to wait until they have had some sort of bond, even if it cant be legal.

Here is another issue I have been wrestling with. Back in 2001 I was running away from the law for some thefts of checks, cause of my intense gambling problem at the time. I had went to jail already was out on probation and then skipped probation for a month and went to Vegas. During this time I had also been starting to 1st chat with transgender chat rooms (even before this event a while back ago, it was not the 1st time I remember now). Anyways near the last part of Janurary of 2001 I had been staying at a room with other people in the house. I had this intense dream one night unlike any other dream I had before. It was booming and loud like thunder, shaking my very core, a very intense bright being of light changed shape before my eyes, sometimes appearing like a dove, often appearing as energy in a constant shifting form. Then a voice spoke to me and simply said "I know who you are, you are Shawn *and said my last name also*"

The rumbling and thunder accompanied the voice. I woke up trembling and visibly shaken. I was shocked and amazed, I immediately realized it was God. Was he telling me not to change my name (which I had planned to do along with my gender at the time, well i should say begin the idea by going to counseling) was he telling me not to run away from my probation and Go back? Or was he telling me to not change my gender. After this i called my mom, my lawyer and told them how I was feeling and why I ran away from the probation place they had me staying at.

After this they all told me to come back. I went back to California, to the judge with my lawyer we both explained what was happening. The judge took pity on me and sent me to go to another place that offered counseling and housing and I was in all essence free again as a citizen but just under probation. I have since paid my debt to society for the thefts of checks. I have been off probation for a while.

I then went to counseling there spoke about my problems and then later buried the issue of gender after a time but still kept going to counseling , just not a gender therapist anymore.  Ok so Today now 11 years later and I am still dealing with this issue. Was the dream just a dream like some will say, was it just my subconscious? I have had dreams about things I was worried about before that were on my subconscious and they were never anything like that.


I should say that while I was in Jail I had 2 other dreams, one dream was of me being chained to a a tree or a wall, chained up by my hands, all around me was dead trees in  a field of light/grey/purple goo and people rising from the goo moaning and crying and in pain. I then saw a chalice of gold and jewels come before me filled with blood, it splashed on me cutting my chains as it did. I woke up feeling free and light.

The 2nd dream that followed was close in time to this. I dreamt I was in an office sky scraper building very high up. In the center was myself on the floor either sitting or kneeling. I was surrounded by 12 people dressed in Royal and Elegant Golden and Jewel Encrusted Garments. They all began splashing water on me a chalice they each held in there hand. Were these angels or the 12 disciples maybe? I then saw Jesus smiling at me warmly and lovingly out the window of the room in the sky, his hair blowing as if it were window. I just saw his face larger than life though not his entire body.

All these dreams were so different than any other I had ever in my life. I understand the 1st 2 dreams and came to accept the 3rd dream telling me my name to mean deal with all of the things and just be "Shawn"

So you see I'd like to understand more about the 3rd dream. What was God warning me about exactly? What do you all think?

Concerning Sex before marriage:

First of all, if it is your conviction to have sex before marriage then stick to your conviction.

What bothers me (and this isn't against you) are the people who will use the Bible and then say "The Bible is clear that it is against premarital sex."

1. The Bible isn't clear about premarital sex. It doesn't talk against it nor does it talk for it. However:

2. Many, many, many notable people in the Bible had premarital sex many times before they were "married." Many of these people were noted to be of good and godly character. And some of them even have a book named after them in the Bible.

Adam and Eve were not married. Matter of fact, many Jewish text tells that Eve was not even Adam's first lover. That would have been Lilith.

Hagar had sex with Abraham. She was never married. She gave birth to Ishmael, the father of the Arabic nations.
Jacob had sex before he was married.
Joseph had sex before he was married.
Moses had a divorced and remarried.
Tamar had sex before marriage
Judah had sex before marriage
Rahab, the Great (6) Grandmother of David, had sex LOTSA times (she was a prostitute)
Ruth had sex with Boaz on the wheat floor (she even gave him oral sex) before they were married. Rth was so greatly blessed by sleeping with Boaz that she was the grandmother of King David.
David had sex with Bathsheba before they were married.
Solomon loved premarital sex so much, he wrote the Song of Solomon (which talks about infatuation, love, sex, .....and THEN marriage).

These are just examples on the top of my head. I am sure if I researched the subject more, I will probably find at least three dozen others.

So when Christians say "it is clear we are not to have sex until we marry" then I would ask for their sources. I would presuppose "it is clear" meaning "this is what I heard my pastor or other people say." I usually go to the sources. Same with gay marriage. Some Christians say "it is clear that the Bible says about marriage" and then try to make it sound like this beautiful God Ordained union between a man and woman who are in love.

Marriages in the Bible are NOTHING like that.

2. About your dreams

Dreams are tricky things. I can tell you how I view dreams. I view dreams to be your subconscious entering into a dream when you are sleeping. It doesn't necessarily mean the Holy Spirit is trying to tell you something (although it could). But I'm neutral about dreams. I do not know remotely enough about dreams to tell you if its your own consciousness or God.

Hmm ok a verse I would like to understand better

Quote1 Corinthians 7:2 "But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband."

I believe in having a relationship before God with 1 person. never ever to cheat on that person and commit adultery. I do believe in a union between people that the law should recognize and that God would bless.

From a psychological point of view, dreams happen during REM sleep.  Essentially when you dream, your brain is organizing everything from the previous waking period, and putting it into the "correct" part of the brain, sometimes these thoughts and memories find their way into the part of your brain you use to actively process information during waking periods.  When that happens, they appear as a dream.  I have explained this in extremely basic terms.  It is much more complicated than this in reality.

Quote from: ShawnTOShawnna on May 26, 2012, 05:21:24 PM
Hmm ok a verse I would like to understand better

I believe in having a relationship before God with 1 person. never ever to cheat on that person and commit adultery. I do believe in a union between people that the law should recognize and that God would bless.

that talks about marriage. Not sex. That verse talks about the pitfalls that could arise in a once polygamous culture.

Quote from: Brooke777 on May 26, 2012, 05:25:07 PM
From a psychological point of view, dreams happen during REM sleep.  Essentially when you dream, your brain is organizing everything from the previous waking period, and putting it into the "correct" part of the brain, sometimes these thoughts and memories find their way into the part of your brain you use to actively process information during waking periods.  When that happens, they appear as a dream.  I have explained this in extremely basic terms.  It is much more complicated than this in reality.

ah the Brain / mind is defragmenting my thoughts

Quote from: Brooke777 on May 26, 2012, 05:25:07 PM
From a psychological point of view, dreams happen during REM sleep.  Essentially when you dream, your brain is organizing everything from the previous waking period, and putting it into the "correct" part of the brain, sometimes these thoughts and memories find their way into the part of your brain you use to actively process information during waking periods.  When that happens, they appear as a dream.  I have explained this in extremely basic terms.  It is much more complicated than this in reality.

I'm not religious but yeah, isn't someone thinks a ton about what a god wants pretty much gauranteed to have a dream where a god "tells" them something eventually?

Life here on earth is but a dream of the true spiritual world from whence we came and to where we will return

Strictly from a psychological point of view, yes.  If you constantly think about what God wants you to do, then you will have a dream with God in it.

Quote from: Carbon on May 26, 2012, 05:44:23 PM
I'm not religious but yeah, isn't someone thinks a ton about what a god wants pretty much gauranteed to have a dream where a god "tells" them something eventually?

Except I wasant thinnking about God at all during that time, I was not seeing or reading or listening to anything about God. I had never seen nor heard anything in my past nor on television that even remotely resembled my dreams. I have never ever been spoken to in my dreams at the decible of sounding like tons of thunder going off.

Quote from: Amazon D on May 26, 2012, 05:48:36 PM
Life here on earth is but a dream of the true spiritual world from whence we came and to where we will return

I truly wish others could feel that the spirit world was real, i know that its real too. Yes we all have variations on the theme, but its still real.

Quote from: ShawnTOShawnna on May 26, 2012, 06:56:31 PM
Except I wasant thinnking about God at all during that time, I was not seeing or reading or listening to anything about God. I had never seen nor heard anything in my past nor on television that even remotely resembled my dreams. I have never ever been spoken to in my dreams at the decible of sounding like tons of thunder going off.

You give the impression of someone who thinks about God/Christianity pretty much every day. And you don't have to be consciously thinking about it THAT day, even though it helps. I mean I once had a dream that involved me correcting some spelling mistakes in a paper that I had missed when I was awake, so you never know what's going on in your subconscious mind.

If you're not the kind of person who thinks about God/Christianity pretty much every day I kind of have to question why every topic you start here has something to do with Christianity. It seems like a Big Deal to you. The two possibilities are basically that you are hyper religious or that this is some kind covert proselytizing like Annah said. One of my rules is to assume the best possible motivations or intentions behind things that I can (there are too many situations where the best is still really bad for me to want to add on to them), so I am going with you being really religious.

QuoteThe two possibilities are basically that you are hyper religious or that this is some kind covert proselytizing like Annah said.

1. Sorry Not hyper Religious, Simply Spiritual
2. covert proselytizing : Eh I know what covert means I had to look up proselytizing on google , Sorry that is not me either

The 3rd option is that I am trying to figure out a few things so I can be content and happy knowing I am not alone in my situation. That there is some ray of hope in all of this and that I can have answers for myself. I don't expect anyone else to believe like I do, instead I will show them love and kindness and hope that they would like to. But this is about me and my journey, I am seeking answers from many many places, praying about it. And Yes I will be attending counseling soon and try to see what I can discover in a clinical session as well. Try to put humpty dumpty back together again and hope I am able to stay up on the wall this time.

wow guess what happen to me today, every thing makes sense now! I posted this in another thread not sure if should post it as text here again, cause i don't want to spam. So i will just post the link.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,120784.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,120784.0.html)

I am feeling so wonderful right now.

Quote from: ShawnTOShawnna on May 27, 2012, 01:12:07 PM
wow guess what happen to me today, every thing makes sense now! I posted this in another thread not sure if should post it as text here again, cause i don't want to spam. So i will just post the link.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,120784.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,120784.0.html)

I am feeling so wonderful right now.

Annah i believe is a pastor too and she said basically the same thing. I am glad you found some peace. Remember though the evil one will send others into your life to distort what you heard and make you confused and not able to love both god and man.

That is true, i just needed to hear from someone i didn't think would tell me anything, someone i knew well.

Annah, one of your videos on you tube said theres no absolute truth, that cannot be, sure we don't have all the answers but God is the absolute truth, he knows all. Also why would simple truths that Jesus said (ok fine men wrote down what they heard Jesus say) "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" not be an absolute truth, if i live the opposite of this and treat other people like crap, im not going to be getting anyone to love me back and im going to be hated for treating them like crap. Following certain laws of God do in essence become absolute truths.

Quote from: ShawnTOShawnna on May 29, 2012, 02:23:23 PM
Also why would simple truths that Jesus said (ok fine men wrote down what they heard Jesus say) "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" not be an absolute truth, if i live the opposite of this and treat other people like crap, im not going to be getting anyone to love me back and im going to be hated for treating them like crap. Following certain laws of God do in essence become absolute truths.

Well, there are times where that's not actually true, either. If the other person believes you're treating them like crap because it's in their own best interests, for a greater good that they can't see, then that doesn't always apply.

Here's a scenario: You're a triage nurse and all of a sudden you get ten patients brought in at once. They're all seriously injured. One requires constant attention and holding pressure on a wound in order to save their life, but in order to do that you have to neglect treatment of the other nine, who will die if you do. Yet if you treat the other patients, that one will die.

So what do you do? Do you let nine patients die because treating the one would be what you'd want to happen to you in a similar scenario? Or do you choose to save the most lives you can, even knowing that you're going to let someone die?

Sometimes we all face choices that make us think about the 'bigger picture' and what's best overall than in specific case-by-case instances. In such cases, we don't always, and maybe shouldn't do unto others as we would have them do unto us. So it's not really an absolute truth.

Such statements are very simplistic in their nature, and while morally noble, they aren't always practical in a real-world environment.

ahh ok well that makes sense, but let me just make it more simple


God is Love *i regard this as an absolute truth*

Satan is the opposite of God *i regard this as an absolute truth*

Good and Evil exist, the majority of the world would agree that cold blooded murder is Evil,  *I regard this as an absolute truth*

*edit*

I have been speaking with pastors from the UCC and the MCC also and its starting to become more clear. I am starting to understand and let go of some of my fears about my feelings

Varieties of Christian tradition and experience tell us that there is not going to be much to agree up from sect to sect and denomination to denomination, except for one thing: the primacy of the Bible.

A lot of opposition aimed at transgendered Christians and Jews comes from Leviticus.  My two cents, as a Christian, comes from the Gospel according to John (1:17, NASB):

For the Law was given to Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

This tells us that things have changed - our relationship with God and his covenant - with the death and resurrection of Christ.

In Chapter 3 of the letter to the Galatians, which speaks on righteousness through faith, there is a significant passage (3:17-29) that concludes (v. 26-29) what is typically the first division of the book,:

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

This is beautiful! It tells us that we are no longer saved by the law but through faith in Christ. Any law prohibiting a man from wearing a woman's clothing is about as relevant as a law requiring circumcision - which is not at all!

God doesn't make mistakes. He didn't make a mistake creating you.

Finally, from the First Samuel (16:7), some encouraging words about what really matters:

But the Lord said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart."


-Caroline