Susan's Place Transgender Resources

1st off let me say that being a Christian it grieves my heart in the worst way, to see people from any place, anywhere be hounded on by uneducated and bigoted Christians (who sadly are raised this way). I can't stand to see violence and abuse thrust on anyone regardless of who they are. I thankfully was taught to love people as I love myself and God. However only recently have I started to be able to accept the idea of being part of the GLBT community. This in to part that I was raised and preached from the bible from that being any of those 4 ways was a sin. People here are showing me some things of how the bible was translated wrong from the greek. I am still doing further studies.

But I also see alot of Gays and Lesbians especially show hatred towards christians in general, i ran into this myself when I was younger, I said hello to a lesbian and tried to have a conversation, she flipped me off and said the F word and said all men are evil.  She would have had no idea what i was like inside my heart. She had no clue that I was struggling with my own gender and sexuality, all she heard was Christian. So one should learn to let go of any misconceptions or ideas of what a person is like until you see the fruits of there actions. You should not hate anyone right off the bat, spit in there face and tell them they are wrong. It all comes down to how would you feel if they did that to you. You have to rise up and be the better human being and be a shining example of how we should be.

I'm not a Christian myself, but I have defended them as a group before. I know many that are really good people who accept others for who they are without judging them. I also know some who are hateful, but I don't think religion made them that way, they just use it as an excuse. Some people are just hateful and rather than admit that its them and their choice to be so, they try to use whatever means to justify it to themselves and others.  And responding to hate with more hate, just a different reasoning behind it, doesn't make it ok, its rather hypocritical in my opinion.

I have had positive experiences with Christians and negative experiences just like I have had positive experiences with other religions and negative experiences with other religions. 

I have no issues with the religions themselves.  I have issues with the people who follow that religion and use it as an excuse to do hateful things.  It's why after all of my studies of history, and the awful things that people did in the name of Christianity, I have no issue with Christianity.  It's why after all of the negative experiences I have had with Christians that I have no issue with the religion.

Religion isn't the problem, it's some of the people who follow it that are.  The majority of followers of any religion aren't going to think less of you or aren't going to give a bunch of hell, but you have that minority that will kill in the name of that religion or harm others in the name of that religion and those are the people I have issues with.

Quote from: ShawnTOShawnna on May 26, 2012, 10:56:04 AM
I said hello to a lesbian and tried to have a conversation, she flipped me off and said the F word and said all men are evil.  She would have had no idea what i was like inside my heart. She had no clue that I was struggling with my own gender and sexuality, all she heard was Christian.

Think about this though, where did you meet her?  If she was just random stranger on the street and you came up to her and one of the first things you said is that you are Christian then she likely felt you were about to witness to her and preach hellfire and damnation. Why should a stranger be allowed to waste someone else's time with their religion?

I can't think of any context where you are a Christian would come out so soon in a conversation.

Nope i never brought up that I was a christian. That's the bad part. I was just attempting to make conversation. Just normal chit chat.
I did not tell her directly I was a Christian, but she may have come to that conclusion, I know it was a brief conversation and I think this person might had seen me before at a street mission that is christian.

No one should hate anyone. It's self destructive.

"Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule." ~ Buddha

Anger and hatred aren't the same thing.

Anger is a pressure valve. Once the build up is released, it's gone. And you get on with life. Hatred is a deep, burning resentment that festers within. Even when the cause is long gone, or even forgotten about, the hatred remains, like a disease that eats away at you.

Yes see I feel that I am not going to be accepted by either side here, the fundamental Christians are going to despise me and some of the glbt are going to never understand me or despise me. I don't know what the percentage of Christians are that are glbt, but I'm sure its less than Christians who are straight. This is the problem I am going to have to face when I meet someone and then decide later to say "oh by the way I'm a Christian but also MTF" Im going to be the joke of the town, I just can see that as being a real possibility. Its an awful strange place to be stuck in the middle like that.

Quote from: Laura91 on May 26, 2012, 01:31:56 PM
I am aware of this differences between the two. (regardless of what I have said in other posts.)

Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to sound patronising.

I wish I'd known the difference a bit sooner. It would have saved a whole lot of pain. :-\

Quote from: ShawnTOShawnna on May 26, 2012, 01:29:20 PM
Yes see I feel that I am not going to be accepted by either side here, the fundamental Christians are going to despise me and some of the glbt are going to never understand me or despise me. I don't know what the percentage of Christians are that are glbt, but I'm sure its less than Christians who are straight. This is the problem I am going to have to face when I meet someone and then decide later to say "oh by the way I'm a Christian but also MTF" Im going to be the joke of the town, I just can see that as being a real possibility. Its an awful strange place to be stuck in the middle like that.

People can surprise you. Maybe there aren't as many of either extremity as you think.

Hate and anger are very destructive emotions.... and they stem not from what others do to us, but what we know about ourselves inside.  Unfortunately, no one can make us feel anything. If we feel it, it comes from our own insecurities, our own bias, and our own self.  Words are only words.  If someone said "transgendered people disgust me" in Chinese, would you get mad?  No, because you didn't understand him.  But they did say it.  So words cannot matter... if they did, then no matter how they were said, you would feel the same way.

I totally understand that everyone has their beliefs and their opinions, and I respect that.  Whether I agree with it or not is my business.  If I try to prove my point to them, that is coming from ego.  The need to be heard.  the need to be right.  And if you are not heard, or cannot sway their opinion, that's usually when anger comes up.  However, it's ok to say "I'm sorry, but we just don't agree on this issue."  You can say, "I truly respect your opinion, and while I don't agree, I won't argue with you to try to change it".  It is a peaceful response... of course, you have to come from a place where you mean it.  Sometimes people get so focused on themselves, that they don't realize that other people are affected.  How they respond is their stuff... but how you respond is YOUR stuff.  If you want to find peace, you have to act out of peace.

I have compassion for those with closed minds.  Some I can open, some I cannot.  It is easy to have compassion for those we love, but the trick is, and what is necessary, but missing in the world, is having compassion for those who do dispicable things.  Once the world learns this, you will see peace.  All we can control is our actions and our reactions.  Why not react from a place of peace?

Well see for me its not a belief, but a truth of existence, mind you Christians keep twisting things to fit what they want, still i know that God is love and the devil is the opposite of love which is hate. The reason I tell people I believe in God and Jesus is not because I have an ego. I do it because I want them to be able to experience the love and joy I feel inside. I do it because I would like to see them again as a friend in the after life.

Lets take for instance there is a giant hornet about to sting someone on the back, most any good person on this earth would warn them immediately that they are about to get stung and suffer some pain. Since I have been stung before I know what it is like and I would warn them. even people who have not been stung would warn them most likely (unless they were heartless or immature)

So to me the devil is the giant hornet, I can't simply stand by and watch people get stung. I care about them too much to do that. Of course I don't force myself on anyone, rather instead I just show my love to them, and if they ask me why i am so nice to them even if they hurt me I will let them know why. It depends on the situation.

Maybe this is a poor analogy but the truth is like I said before I know no matter what I do I am going to be an outcast to some people and a hypocrite to some as well. It is strange and difficult path to be a Christian Transgender, of this I can see.

Quote from: Strickalator/Supergirl of Earth 3/Lemon Lass on May 26, 2012, 10:56:04 AM
1st off let me say that being a Christian it grieves my heart in the worst way, to see people from any place, anywhere be hounded on by uneducated and bigoted Christians (who sadly are raised this way). I can't stand to see violence and abuse thrust on anyone regardless of who they are. I thankfully was taught to love people as I love myself and God. However only recently have I started to be able to accept the idea of being part of the GLBT community. This in to part that I was raised and preached from the bible from that being any of those 4 ways was a sin. People here are showing me some things of how the bible was translated wrong from the greek. I am still doing further studies.

But I also see alot of Gays and Lesbians especially show hatred towards christians in general, i ran into this myself when I was younger, I said hello to a lesbian and tried to have a conversation, she flipped me off and said the F word and said all men are evil.  She would have had no idea what i was like inside my heart. She had no clue that I was struggling with my own gender and sexuality, all she heard was Christian. So one should learn to let go of any misconceptions or ideas of what a person is like until you see the fruits of there actions. You should not hate anyone right off the bat, spit in there face and tell them they are wrong. It all comes down to how would you feel if they did that to you. You have to rise up and be the better human being and be a shining example of how we should be.

I agree with you.
I was raised a Christian, and still have this same Faith. But I too have seen people taken their Faith and religion forward and use it wrongly and out of context. Hence, part of the bad name we get :p Not every Christian is preachy, or judgmental to those they deem immoral.
I believe none of us are in a position to judge, so why, for example,  should someone who is religious, claim that someone who is gay is going to hell?
Like others have said, its not religion thats the problem (which some people seem to think) but its the people and how they "use" it.

On the other hand, I have probably experienced more anti religious comments and behaviour, which gets on my nerves to be honest. But Im not going to stand there and berate them. The best I can do, is get on with my life, and hope that the way I live and morals that I demonstrate will be an example of what being a Christian is to me.

Quote from: Strickalator/Supergirl of Earth 3/Lemon Lass on May 26, 2012, 10:56:04 AM
1st off let me say that being a Christian it grieves my heart in the worst way, to see people from any place, anywhere be hounded on by uneducated and bigoted Christians (who sadly are raised this way). I can't stand to see violence and abuse thrust on anyone regardless of who they are. I thankfully was taught to love people as I love myself and God. However only recently have I started to be able to accept the idea of being part of the GLBT community. This in to part that I was raised and preached from the bible from that being any of those 4 ways was a sin. People here are showing me some things of how the bible was translated wrong from the greek. I am still doing further studies.

But I also see alot of Gays and Lesbians especially show hatred towards christians in general, i ran into this myself when I was younger, I said hello to a lesbian and tried to have a conversation, she flipped me off and said the F word and said all men are evil.  She would have had no idea what i was like inside my heart. She had no clue that I was struggling with my own gender and sexuality, all she heard was Christian. So one should learn to let go of any misconceptions or ideas of what a person is like until you see the fruits of there actions. You should not hate anyone right off the bat, spit in there face and tell them they are wrong. It all comes down to how would you feel if they did that to you. You have to rise up and be the better human being and be a shining example of how we should be.

First of all, about her comments with men. No she might not have known that you were questioning your gender, or that you might feel like you were growing closer to the LGBT community. But people who are raised female have always had very good reasons to be distrustful of people presenting themselves as heterosexual cissexed men. Given the way lesbians are viewed by society and how they are often treated by men, I would say she was justified in reacting as she did given the limited information she had. For example, a while me and a group of other people (all from lgbt community, some of them lesbians) went to the nude beach for a party. Almost the whole time there was this creepy little hetero dude who kept lurking around some of the women, asking them if they're lesbians blah blah blah and basically trying to hook up. That's the kind of ->-bleeped-<- lesbians (and women generally) get from random men all the time. So as much as you meant no harm, and even though you now know yourself not to be a hetero cis man, if this was before you came out when you were presenting yourself as male to the world...I wouldn't fault her for feeling the way she did.

Some people will say "oh even in the case of cismen, you have to give them a chance." In this society, that's just not reality. Cismen are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of violence and frequently force themselves, even verbally (which, yes, is just as much of a violation), on women. That a woman would want to get away from that possibility is not surprising. When a person is a part of a dominant class in society, they shouldn't have the opportunity to claim to be discriminated against, imo. The power imbalance is too large for that. It's like if I, as a white person, went all "boohoo no fair" when someone calls me racist. As a part of that dominant class, I shouldn't get that opportunity. The system itself is already heavily racist...just as the system itself is already heavily misogynist.

And yeah, I see the same thing with Christians...and it really gets me when Christians whine about the queer/trans community "hating" on them. Radical Christians and even moderates have poured so much hate into society and religion is directly responsible for homophobic and transphobic ideology. Its not as though atheists are the ones most frequently running around screaming "homosexuality is an unnatural sin!" Sorry, but Christianity gets no pity from me. It is more often the aggressor than the victim and its about time those being discriminated against fight back, instead of trying to play the "oh well, people hate on me, but I'm just going to turn the other cheek and love everyone." Nothing will ever change that way, until marginalised people stand up for themselves.

Sadly, all these radical christians make the religion look bad. I'm christian, and it embarrases me when radical christians
make fools of us. If certain LGBTs can't be nice to each other they should'nt say anyting to each other at all.

I was a member of the Anglican Church, but currently consider my self an atheist because of the hypocrisy I found in the churches.
The thing I have the most trouble with theologically is Romans 1:32, with gays "deserving death." 

For someone who has become aware that I can technically call myself Jewish through my mother's side of the family, that gets me really angry.

  I no doubt have distant relatives who died in the Holocaust because they "deserved death" too. When the Churches actually do something beyond half-hearted apologies I will be prepared to take them more seriously. The ball really is in their court.

Karen.

In general, I don't like Christianity. Too many bad apples in there who are hypocrites. Like the many many Catholic Priests who molest the Choir Boys  that think it's okay to do so as long as they confess on Sunday. There's too many denominations too and each with their own views and perpetration of the Bible. Nor do I enjoy the mindless bigoted sheeple who believe they are pure believers and tell every person who fits the GLBT spectrum that they are going to hell, etc....

You get the idea.

However....

I met a pastor who has healed a wound in my family. My Brother-in-Law, as I have talked about before, said some very hurtful things when I began transition. We didn't talk for over a year because he felt like I had slighted him by transitioning.
My Mother-in-Law passed away a few weeks ago. For the sake of Family, my Brother-in-law and I set aside our differences to come together in support of our wives family. 
After the Memorial, I thanked the pastor for his moving words. (I cried as hard as my wife and her sisters despite trying not to). He then asked my Brother-in-Law, "Who is the woman with the black hair?"

He explained to the pastor who I was, my transition, etc. The pastor told him, "Your job, is not to judge her. Yours is to simply love her."

Afterwards, my Brother-in-law told me what he had said and and that even his Dad, whom I have known for years, asked "Who is that woman with black hair ?" So I was definitely passing. He also said that I was welcome back into his life again. He invited me to go to church on Sunday with him, to see why my Mother-in-Law liked it so much.

On one hand, I was not interested. On the other, the pastors words were still ringing in my ears. So, I went. And I kind of enjoyed it. Afterwards my Brother-in-Law asked how I like it. I gave him my opinion and that I was still unsure I could go again. Having to explain,'why I look like a woman' would get awkward if people asked him. My Brother-in-Law said that, if it got me to come to church, he would use female pronouns so that we didn't have to explain.

So, what can I say? I still find the people who cast stones with a bible in one hand and a bottle of Jack Daniels in the other to be evil little turds. But I think I have found a church that I could be a part of. A small part of Christianity that seems to be untouched by the flawed hatred of closet case Ministers and bigots with crosses.

See? I'm not entirely hateful, I just simply dont like the turds in the punch bowl. Like Westboro Baptist Church. ;)

QuoteBut I also see alot of Gays and Lesbians especially show hatred towards christians in general, i ran into this myself when I was younger, I said hello to a lesbian and tried to have a conversation, she flipped me off and said the F word and said all men are evil.  She would have had no idea what i was like inside my heart. She had no clue that I was struggling with my own gender and sexuality, all she heard was Christian.

QuoteNope i never brought up that I was a christian. That's the bad part. I was just attempting to make conversation. Just normal chit chat.
I did not tell her directly I was a Christian, but she may have come to that conclusion, I know it was a brief conversation and I think this person might had seen me before at a street mission that is christian.

There are some lesbians who sincerely and deeply HATE men. That's probably why  she hated on you.

The thing I despise about Christians is the sense of smug superiority they seem to have..."Oh, you're trans? Don't you want to go to heaven?" As if being trans was a sin, that is not covered by the Blood! (I used to be Christian until about a decade ago; long story and don't want to get into it now).

Back in the day, I explored churches, looking for a good congregation (ie, one that wasn't arrogant) and pretty much stopped after seeing several dozen churches in 3 different major metro areas, all having the same attitude. I do keep an open mind, however, and have recently found one that might be acceptable to me.  Only bad part is, that's the church my friend's funeral was in (he killed himself).

So...I'll do my part, accept Christians as they are, but ultimately will ask them to go in peace, and do no harm.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 27, 2012, 09:10:24 AM
There are some lesbians who sincerely and deeply HATE men. That's probably why  she hated on you.

The thing I despise about Christians is the sense of smug superiority they seem to have..."Oh, you're trans? Don't you want to go to heaven?" As if being trans was a sin, that is not covered by the Blood! (I used to be Christian until about a decade ago; long story and don't want to get into it now).

Back in the day, I explored churches, looking for a good congregation (ie, one that wasn't arrogant) and pretty much stopped after seeing several dozen churches in 3 different major metro areas, all having the same attitude. I do keep an open mind, however, and have recently found one that might be acceptable to me.  Only bad part is, that's the church my friend's funeral was in (he killed himself).

So...I'll do my part, accept Christians as they are, but ultimately will ask them to go in peace, and do no harm.

There are very few true christians and churches. True christians don't hate homosexuals/transsexuals. Sorry if i miss spelled i'm not good at that.

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on May 26, 2012, 01:29:20 PM
Yes see I feel that I am not going to be accepted by either side here, the fundamental Christians are going to despise me and some of the glbt are going to never understand me or despise me. I don't know what the percentage of Christians are that are glbt, but I'm sure its less than Christians who are straight. This is the problem I am going to have to face when I meet someone and then decide later to say "oh by the way I'm a Christian but also MTF" Im going to be the joke of the town, I just can see that as being a real possibility. Its an awful strange place to be stuck in the middle like that.

Hi Shawn Sunshine, Transgender,Christian and Lesbian/Pansexual, I accept you just as Christ does. We're all in the same boat, you and I especially being transgendered believers. It's ok that there are some haters, it always emanates from ignorance. I'm not religious, don't go to church, I'm just a believer. Some folks have had negative experiences from church going religious types and their hatred and disgust comes as a matter of self defense. What a lot of people don't understand is that there are a lot of people who claim the mantle of Christian and play at church and religion but they are phoneys just playing a game. The real deal doesn't hate! I think Sephirah has it right, hatred is self destructive and eats one up. I have met many transgendered believers, there are more than would admit that they are Christian, we're all just human beings aren't we dear? Hang in there Sunshine, you're not alone here kid!

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on May 26, 2012, 01:29:20 PM
Yes see I feel that I am not going to be accepted by either side here, the fundamental Christians are going to despise me and some of the glbt are going to never understand me or despise me. I don't know what the percentage of Christians are that are glbt, but I'm sure its less than Christians who are straight. This is the problem I am going to have to face when I meet someone and then decide later to say "oh by the way I'm a Christian but also MTF" Im going to be the joke of the town, I just can see that as being a real possibility. Its an awful strange place to be stuck in the middle like that.

The really odd ducks are those of us who try to hold to our fundamental teachings but try to work through them. It's a very,very fine line. Kind of like walking on the edge of a razor. To many fundamentalists forget we are ALL made in the image of God. They forget the compassion and love that Christ showed. Just because we are coming from a different place doesn't mean that Jesus doesn't love us also. They have just as many faults and in many cases more. To often they don't want to see the human being inside. The one that is hurting and needs the love and compassion. Don't they need it to?

On the other hand when those in the GBLT community find out your a "Christian" it's just as easy to marginalize them also. It is understandable. To often they see "Christians" who have a log in their own eye trying to remove a speck from someones else's eye.  All that happens is that the one with the log is beating up the one with the speck. They see the "Christian" lie to their boss,getting drunk and stoned,cheat,steal,curse,etc.,and then have the unmitigated gall
to accuse someone else of their "flaws".  A Christian is to remove that log from their own eye first,but to often it's not done. Is it any wonder that it seems cheap,shallow and feeble,and false?

See the thing is one can not know where the other is coming from unless you talk to them and try to understand where the other is coming from.  One may or may not agree with the other but it does not mean that just because one comes from one group,that they hate the other group. To many people make assumptions just based on the group the one is associated.
We forget that when one assumes to much all it does is make an ass out of you and me.

Is it any different if the one side is seen as being hateful is then turned on and hated back,or is it the same? Is that not the pot calling the kettle black? Is either side truly innocent in this?
When the two come together and somehow it is said that they are taking the "High Moral Ground" and it resorts to name calling,spitting,and things being thrown is either side acting any better or have both sunk to the very same level? (It has happened)

If the High Moral Ground is to be taken there will be a cost. Hate is not an option and will get no one anywhere. It's like pouring gasoline on a smoldering ember. Does it really accomplish anything at all? Or is it that it just polarizes both sides so much more?

Agreed, Jesus taught love and would likely be furious by all the splinter groups, hate mongers and wars in His name. Go figure :/ I've met some real nice christians though, enough so that I lost the anger in my heart over it and only feel sadness seeing all the ones preaching hate and condemning others.

Quote from: Snowpaw on September 16, 2012, 09:09:25 AM
Agreed, Jesus taught love and would likely be furious by all the splinter groups, hate mongers and wars in His name. Go figure :/ I've met some real nice christians though, enough so that I lost the anger in my heart over it and only feel sadness seeing all the ones preaching hate and condemning others.

He would confront them the same way He confronted the Pharisees and they would hate Him too.

The sad part is that most of the hatred on both sides is based on stereotypes. They are assumed that they apply to all within the group,whether or not all within the group think and act the same way. In order for the hate to continue towards the group,all within that group must be viewed as a group not as individuals. They are painted with a broad based brush that is not based on truth but by a stereotype,which may not even apply to most but a very very small portion of the group. The stereotype can't stand when you see people as individuals. Why? Because many do not fit the stereotype. It can only work if the stereotype applies to all.

Do any of us really want to be stereotyped?

The true test of a Christian is Do they love their enemies? Because when all is said and done Jesus left no room ever for anyone to hate. If we can't love one as a spouse,a relative,a friend,a neighbor,or a stranger,in the very end we are commanded to love our enemies. Can anyone find any room in all of that for hate by a "Christian"?  It is to be the definition of follower of Jesus.

Then what does one do with the fundamental Christian transgendered brothers and sisters? They may not agree on every issue but are they seen as allies or enemies? Do they get treated with the same respect that others want to be treated with? Are they really accepted with the same open arms or are they thrown to the wolfs? If they are seen as being worthy of contempt,ridicule and mocking,that comes from the other side is that not the same type of hypocrisy?

Maybe just maybe because they are on the inside so others can see that it could be their father,mother,brother,sister,son,daughter,coworker or friend,perhaps then they can see that we are human also. Can one really expect if they are shoved to the side,treated with contempt,mocked,and ridiculed that they would even want to try to change things because they get it from both sides and what is the point for them to keep trying? Pile it on enough and they will come to the point of rejecting both sides and have contempt for both,and just may end up being enemies of both.

They to need to hear that they are accepted. Not that they are agreed with. It's a fine line,no doubt about it. They may need to hear it more so,than any others because they are in amongst the lion's den,and hear it far more often than those on the outside,and they need to be lifted up by those on the outside. Far too often they will be walking alone.

Maybe just maybe if they were encouraged to keep going in a very tough environment,through staying in that situation some good could come from it. Perhaps they can make some small changes, it won't change it all and that can not be expected.
Does it ever occur to us that some of them may be called to stay there to bring about some changes in their treatment of us? How many of us would really want to do it,standing in the line of fire,being on the front lines? And then to be shot at from behind? Does this somehow sound like a good plan or does it sound like a suicide mission? Are they nursed back to health so they can go on or are they left to bleed to death?

Does it really make any sense to take the few allies that are on the inside trying to affect some change,and to cast them away? Doesn't most change come from the inside?

That then leads to another question. (Don't you just love those questions?) Does it mean that all people associated with a certain group hate? If one is associated with the KKK or Nazis then the answer is most likely yes as those groups do promote it and act on it.

But on the other side are all bikers violent,are all Muslims terrorists,etc etc? If it's only a smaller number within the group then a blanket statement that all are like that is a lie.

Which brings us to the main question Do ALL fundamental Christian's truly hate us? If it is not true then what is happening is that the words and actions of some are applied to all without merit. If it is true all do it then it stands.  What I have found is most often it is some (not all) of the pastors (fundamentalists),will take it seriously and do not condemn us. Is it all or is it some?

Then that leads to the $64,000 question. Why should they continue to try to be a go between only to have their heads handed back to them on a silver platter? What is the point?

Quote from: SarahM777 on September 17, 2012, 06:49:34 AM
Then what does one do with the fundamental Christian transgendered brothers and sisters? They may not agree on every issue but are they seen as allies or enemies? Do they get treated with the same respect that others want to be treated with? Are they really accepted with the same open arms or are they thrown to the wolfs? If they are seen as being worthy of contempt,ridicule and mocking,that comes from the other side is that not the same type of hypocrisy?

Maybe just maybe because they are on the inside so others can see that it could be their father,mother,brother,sister,son,daughter,coworker or friend,perhaps then they can see that we are human also. Can one really expect if they are shoved to the side,treated with contempt,mocked,and ridiculed that they would even want to try to change things because they get it from both sides and what is the point for them to keep trying? Pile it on enough and they will come to the point of rejecting both sides and have contempt for both,and just may end up being enemies of both.

They to need to hear that they are accepted. Not that they are agreed with. It's a fine line,no doubt about it. They may need to hear it more so,than any others because they are in amongst the lion's den,and hear it far more often than those on the outside,and they need to be lifted up by those on the outside. Far too often they will be walking alone.

Maybe just maybe if they were encouraged to keep going in a very tough environment,through staying in that situation some good could come from it. Perhaps they can make some small changes, it won't change it all and that can not be expected.
Does it ever occur to us that some of them may be called to stay there to bring about some changes in their treatment of us? How many of us would really want to do it,standing in the line of fire,being on the front lines? And then to be shot at from behind? Does this somehow sound like a good plan or does it sound like a suicide mission? Are they nursed back to health so they can go on or are they left to bleed to death?

Does it really make any sense to take the few allies that are on the inside trying to affect some change,and to cast them away? Doesn't most change come from the inside?

Feed them to the Kraken! /sarc :P

Isn't that what happens far to often?

Quote from: SarahM777 on September 17, 2012, 11:36:17 AM
Isn't that what happens far to often?

Unfortunately, sometimes what happens is they come to a place like this or some other forum seen as a safeground, they might say something seen as a condemnation of the umbrella most of us find ourselves under. After that well I don't know what to say. That's life, it never has been straight forward or easy to understand. They are gonna get hounded, their every word will be under scrutiny. Because their views are seen as the "enemies" view by a lot of the community. I don't know what to say, if they are going to use their big book to condemn they are going to be going to meet people who truly understand the bible. Or koran, or torah, or whatever big book they follow. I don't think Jesus was hateful or used the book to beat people into believing. That's the problem with most fundies I've met to be honest. I won't be beaten down but I will stand up for myself or any other I see them beating on. So maybe it's not so much throwing them to the kraken or lions, but castigating the pharisees.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Remembering that little sentence would solve a lot of problems. Regardless of what beliefs you hold.

The thing is that the stories of Jesus and the people He touched were truly sinking in,I should see myself in the woman at the well who had five husbands and was at that living living with a sixth man that wasn't her husband,I should see myself in Mary Magdeline who was possessed by demons,I should see myself in the lost coin and sheep,I should see myself when Peter denied Him,I should see myself in the thief on the cross,I should see myself in the hungry crowds. I am no better and in many ways so much worse. But I should see His compassion and His love for them. And if it makes a change in my heart then I also should be showing the same. And it also should be the same for those who see themselves as fundamentalists because of the way they see the scriptures.

I am not any better than anyone else here and in some ways so much worse. I just see the Jesus that loved each and every single one of the people above and had compassion on each and every single one of them. The Jesus I know loves each one of here so much. He loves them right where they are today. And if saying come meet the Jesus I know who loves you so much is somehow wrong ....then what is right? How can I not say so when He can love someone like me,me a total wreck of a human being,broken,twisted and confused,and then He takes me and makes me new. A love so deep and real with very real peace. It is so awesome to know Him and to know He knows me and will not toss me out like so much trash.

Quote from: Snowpaw on September 17, 2012, 11:41:45 AM
Unfortunately, sometimes what happens is they come to a place like this or some other forum seen as a safeground, they might say something seen as a condemnation of the umbrella most of us find ourselves under. After that well I don't know what to say. That's life, it never has been straight forward or easy to understand. They are gonna get hounded, their every word will be under scrutiny. Because their views are seen as the "enemies" view by a lot of the community. I don't know what to say, if they are going to use their big book to condemn they are going to be going to meet people who truly understand the bible. Or koran, or torah, or whatever big book they follow. I don't think Jesus was hateful or used the book to beat people into believing. That's the problem with most fundies I've met to be honest. I won't be beaten down but I will stand up for myself or any other I see them beating on. So maybe it's not so much throwing them to the kraken or lions, but castigating the pharisees.

And dealing with the modern day Pharisees is not an easy thing to do. How hard was it for them the so called "good guys" of their day to be told by Jesus that the tax collectors and the prostitutes (the unclean and sinners) would enter into the kingdom of heaven before they would. The Pharisees thought they had it made they "obeyed" the letter of the law but MISSED the spirit of it. And how many more things did He call the Pharisees out on? So much so they hated Him.

The modern day ones are no better and He would say the very same things to them. And they too would hate Him. So many have put on a veneer,they cleaned up the outside and have never dealt with the inside. They want to be judge,jury,and executioner. Thank God it's not up to them. An awful lot of them will get a very rude awaking,because the day will come when He tells them this (and these are so called believers)

Matthew 25

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.

and again talking to so called believers

He said to them, 24 "Try very hard to enter through the narrow door. I tell you, many will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 The owner of the house will get up and close the door. Then you will stand outside knocking and begging. You will say, 'Sir, open the door for us.'

"But he will answer, 'I don't know you. And I don't know where you come from.'

26 "Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you. You taught in our streets.'

27 "But he will reply, 'I don't know you. And I don't know where you come from. Get away from me, all you who do evil!'

Not all who say they are Christian truly are. Many are false. The test of the believer is the love they have for others. If it's not there question it. A true Christian can not hate others. If they hate others then how are they true Christians? Will they disagree with on things? Of course,but they will do so in a spirit of love.

I go to a great Church where they teach love and acceptance to everyone. There are three other transwomen there, two married lesbian couples, three unmarried lesbian couples, a few single lesbians and gays. They are a great congregation, and accept everyone there. They hold a PFLAG meeting every month, and an LGBT support group once a week. Not all Christians and Churches are haters. There are some who truly teach what Christ taught.

Agree!!!

8 years of daily beatings at the hand of the catholic priest, forgiven

Witnessing the cultural genocide of 1/3 of the Horani tribe by the evangelical preachers, forgiven

No, I do not hate any Christian, I just despise the ones who proselytize

Quote from: peky on September 17, 2012, 08:53:49 PM

No, I do not hate any Christian, I just despise the ones who proselytize

Can one not expect to be preached to when one steps on their ground? If one were to go to a church,listen to Christian radio,watch Christian TV,or go into a place when you know that it is set up for Christians, that you are not going to hear it?

The same goes for the other side. Can a fundamental Christian going onto websites,gay bars etc,not expect to hear the other side on their ground?

There is a reality that both sides do. Both at times become confrontational. At times each one will start it. In the US do not both have the right of free speech? Doesn't one have the right not to stand there and walk away if one chooses not to listen? If people than at that point would not follow the person leaving it would end it at that point. Once it crosses the line to being confrontational both sides are wrong. It does not win anyone over to the other side so to speak. I have no problem with either side speaking as long as it remains peaceful.
But both sides must learn when it is time to walk away. If one is not receptive to the other side at that point is it really going to do any good to chase after them or is it going to drive them further away?

Going to someone's else's home,apartment,or place of business the rules change because than one is dealing with someones else's space. They have rights to how they are going to use that space and how things are going to work their. The property owner has every right to ask someone to leave and it should be done lovingly and quickly. Confronting someone in their own space does not win anyone over. Insults do not win any one over. Being sensitive to the other can win someone over.

There is a world of difference between an inventational approach and a confrontational approach,one is aggressive and the other is passive. The passive will not be seen as threatening as the other. Being aggressive and threatening does not usually work. People will get their backs up and dig their heals in and if it is let go long enough,will end up in violence. An invintational approach will always come from the view point of we have something good that we want to share with you and we want you to be a part of it also,but it will not be forced on someone.

If more Christians would take  the Biblical pattern they would learn to live it out first before ever opening their mouth. It' should be learn to live it out in the flesh then speak after. To much putting the cart before the horse and it does not work that way. Even Paul had to learn to walk the walk before talking the talk.

Maybe if Christians could learn to put this in practice first it would solve a lot of problems

Seen and Not Heard - Petra

Petra - Seen And Not Heard - video clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71p74Epy3G4#)[yt=425,350]_Nhy6_gjCpk[/yt]

Taking it one step further. A fundamentalist "Christian" that hates comes in direct conflict with 1 John. Why you may ask? First a fundamentalist believes that the Bible is the inspired,inerrant,infallible word of God. Then what do they do with 1 John? The only way they can deal with it is  to ignore it,change it,or think that it doesn't apply to them. What does 1 John deal with? John gets right to the heart of the matter about those who say they love God yet hate their brothers and sisters. Here again it is to those who claim to be believers.

1 John 2:9-11

9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister[c] lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

1 John 3:15

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

1 John 4:

20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

Isn't it very plain and to the point? Does it not show that someone who claims to be a Christian yet hates his brother or sister is a liar and they are false? So much so that loving your brother and sister is equated with loving God. It leaves no room for debate on the fundamentalists side. They can't do both loving God and hating their brothers and sisters. They are in opposition to each other.

If you think about it a transgendered fundamentalist Christian does have some advantages when dealing with other fundamentalist Christians. Especially one that knows their Bible.
One is the mind set. If our mind sets are similar it's far easier to go head to head,toe to toe,line upon line,precept upon precept. It is far harder for one fundamentalist to dismiss what another one is saying especially when it comes directly from the Bible in context. Why? Because our core beliefs on what the Bible is,is the same. Our lingo is the same.

It is far harder for them to rattle me as much. It much harder for them to throw me a curve ball. Been there,done that and have heard it all before. They don't scare me anymore and I will go head to head with them. They themselves don't have all the answers (They like to think they do).

Can we who are transgendered fundamentalists not go into places and speak out in ways that most others here can not and be heard in ways that others will not be heard?

I was in a fundamentalist church that preached the "love of jesus" but if i demonstrated ANY signs of having gender issues i would be prayed over and have the devil rebuked out of me and they wouldn't stop until I passed out or puked.
Once i was attracted to another man there and we would hug a little too tightly. They tormented him with forced prayed to drive the "gay" out of him.
The last i saw of him he was running to his car crying. I still have night mirrors of this. :'( :'( :'(.
Beware of mind control
I have to go... :'( :'( :'(

Quote from: Joann on September 18, 2012, 10:09:35 AM
I was in a fundamentalist church that preached the "love of jesus" but if i demonstrated ANY signs of having gender issues i would be prayed over and have the devil rebuked out of me and they wouldn't stop until I passed out or puked.
Once i was attracted to another man there and we would hug a little too tightly. They tormented him with forced prayed to drive the "gay" out of him.
The last i saw of him he was running to his car crying. I still have night mirrors of this. :'( :'( :'(.
Beware of mind control
I have to go... :'( :'( :'(

I used to be active in a non-denominational Christian church, and eventually became disconcerted by how most seemed to find me more acceptable if I acted like a clone rather than have my own personality. It finally dawned on me that was not what the creator would have wanted, after all he created giraffes, zebras, monkeys, lions, tigers, crocs, and elephants, all radically different creatures and he loves them all. So what does that say about people? I believe in Jesus apart from membership in any corporate group, and think He's just wonderful apart from many of the phonies I've met.

I have known a lot of kind and caring Christians and Mormons who do not judge, but i have also known ones who were asked to be bigoted by authorities in their church.  My cousin told me that his pastor at his Baptist church said to give LGBT people the cold shoulder and to socially isolate them. 

Well, he still goes to that church and he has not even looked in my direction in like 10 years. 

What bothers me most is that some people really do not know what to feel about transition, and when they turn to their church, some churches tell them to socially isolate or even hate.  Some say see it as a sin, but don't judge.  It's only the more liberal and often better educated ones that are more likely to be loving and compassionate.

You are assuming that the LGBT people would accept the debate on the Christian terms, when in fact most of the LGBT people I know don't accept the basic premise.  If you reject that centeral premise - indeed reject the entire notion of any Bronze Age morality/religion based on having some invisible sky god - then why would you want to go head to head,toe to toe,line upon line,precept upon precept?  The growing notion in modern Western society (that big 'secular' deal you've been hearing so much about), is that none of that is real, provable or can be sustained.  While its' possible to do that line upon line thing, it's like people quoting Dead or Dylan lyrics to each other, it means nothing if you're not into the band.

So I'm not going to debate Xians based on their bizarrely translated (several times) stories, myths and legends because like many people I'm (obviously) not buying into the original premise.  I would want to debate them in a framework of reason and rationality, and as House has wisely pointed out: Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people.  Any debate based on reason and done in a scientific framework is still-born because there is no reasonable scientific proof that can be offered.

To that end then 99% of the problems are one way, coming from religion at LGBT.  I don't see LTBT people (or any other non-believers) trying to 'rationalize the religion away' or trying to scientifically eliminate religious thoughts and actions, or ganging up on someone and trying to 'reason the lord out of him'.  Indeed the only real advocacy on the part of the secularists that could be considered as 'hostile' to religion is the growing notion that churches should be taxed like everything else.  Other than that they are simply doing their best to ignore the entire religion/church spectrum and really only pays attention when the religious types attempt to force their beliefs into law and codify them into the social order.

And I regularly see groups (always from out of town) go and have prayer stuff in gay neighborhoods, but I've yet to see a bunch of gays show up in a religious setting and try to convert everyone to fabulous.  Simply put activitivities like the one below where forced prayed to drive the "gay" out of him are one way, there is no mirror other.

Quote from: tekla on September 18, 2012, 11:06:32 AM
You are assuming that the LGBT people would accept the debate on the Christian terms, when in fact most of the LGBT people I know don't accept the basic premise.  If you reject that centeral premise - indeed reject the entire notion of any Bronze Age morality/religion based on having some invisible sky god - then why would you want to go head to head,toe to toe,line upon line,precept upon precept?  The growing notion in modern Western society (that big 'secular' deal you've been hearing so much about), is that none of that is real, provable or can be sustained.  While its' possible to do that line upon line thing, it's like people quoting Dead or Dylan lyrics to each other, it means nothing if you're not into the band.

So I'm not going to debate Xians based on their bizarrely translated (several times) stories, myths and legends because like many people I'm (obviously) not buying into the original premise.  I would want to debate them in a framework of reason and rationality, and as House has wisely pointed out: Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people.  Any debate based on reason and done in a scientific framework is still-born because there is no reasonable scientific proof that can be offered.

To that end then 99% of the problems are one way, coming from religion at LGBT.  I don't see LTBT people (or any other non-believers) trying to 'rationalize the religion away' or trying to scientifically eliminate religious thoughts and actions, or ganging up on someone and trying to 'reason the lord out of him'.  Indeed the only real advocacy on the part of the secularists that could be considered as 'hostile' to religion is the growing notion that churches should be taxed like everything else.  Other than that they are simply doing their best to ignore the entire religion/church spectrum and really only pays attention when the religious types attempt to force their beliefs into law and codify them into the social order.

That's not what I said. What  I said is that a transgendered fundamentalist Christian could go head to head with a fundamentalist Christian because both are coming from the same common ground and understand the lingo. If their is no common ground to begin with it is a futile attempt.

To debate fundamentalists may not be what you are to do,but it is what I am to do. It is far easier for someone coming from the inside as opposed to those from the outside.

Quote from: tekla on September 18, 2012, 11:06:32 AM

And I regularly see groups (always from out of town) go and have prayer stuff in gay neighborhoods, but I've yet to see a bunch of gays show up in a religious setting and try to convert everyone to fabulous. 

Touched on above.

Quote from: tekla on September 18, 2012, 11:06:32 AM
  Simply put activitivities like the one below where forced prayed to drive the "gay" out of him are one way, there is no mirror other.

Been there,done that.

Quote from: tekla on September 18, 2012, 11:06:32 AM

So I'm not going to debate Xians based on their bizarrely translated (several times) stories, myths and legends because like many people I'm (obviously) not buying into the original premise.

I know a TG woman who used that term Xian. I asked her what that was all about and she told me that she had given up on Christianity and had given her heart to Satan and that is how satanists refer to Christians as a means of avoiding using the word Christ while denigrating the beliefs of people of faith. 

Quote from: tekla on September 18, 2012, 11:06:32 AM

Indeed the only real advocacy on the part of the secularists that could be considered as 'hostile' to religion is the growing notion that churches should be taxed like everything else.  Other than that they are simply doing their best to ignore the entire religion/church spectrum and really only pays attention when the religious types attempt to force their beliefs into law and codify them into the social order.

And I regularly see groups (always from out of town) go and have prayer stuff in gay neighborhoods, but I've yet to see a bunch of gays show up in a religious setting and try to convert everyone to fabulous.  Simply put activitivities like the one below where forced prayed to drive the "gay" out of him are one way, there is no mirror other.

I've honestly never cared to fight religion. It is too deeply ingrained into modern culture to counteract it. However, it is funny when church leaders complain that they're being discriminated against because the government wants to fund contraceptives. They aren't taxed and they place a huge influence on civil law, despite a so-called "separation of church and state". You know what, if that's discrimination, let me have some of that. Sounds like a good deal.

Alas, none of this matters. I follow a philosophy similar to that of Martin Luther King Jr.'s. I don't hate the religion or any of its members; I hate their pitiful actions.

Hasn't there been enough violence against us? I for sure don't like it. But if the root cause is because of of what is being taught and then turned around to justify it,it will not change unless someone stands in the gap. It cannot change unless someone points out the errors in their thinking and it can bring about a change of heart.

I think it's less ingrained in modern culture than it seems.  Much of the mainstream (and fundamentalism is not mainstream, but, rather, extreme and fringe) religious participation is social based more than it's faith based, with lots of lip-service and not much underlying conviction.  It's trending older, poorer and rural with fewer and fewer people under 35 believing than at any time in our history.  In other Western nations religions have drastically reduced numbers over the last 50 years, and ever so slowly the US follows.  One very telling statistic is that of vocations/callings, as seminaries experience 'graying' as their students get older (finding fewer and fewer young people willing to attend), and in the case of the Catholic Church you see that they don't even have enough priests to put one in every parish (and those they do have are increasingly foreign born), and Catholic Schools which once (like when I went to them) were overwhelmingly run by nuns and other clergy, now are pretty much lay run.

Quote from: tekla on September 18, 2012, 01:02:22 PM
I think it's less ingrained in modern culture than it seems.  Much of the mainstream (and fundamentalism is not mainstream, but, rather, extreme and fringe) religious participation is social based more than it's faith based, with lots of lip-service and not much underlying conviction.  It's trending older, poorer and rural with fewer and fewer people under 35 believing than at any time in our history.  In other Western nations religions have drastically reduced numbers over the last 50 years, and ever so slowly the US follows.  One very telling statistic is that of vocations/callings, as seminaries experience 'graying' as their students get older (finding fewer and fewer young people willing to attend), and in the case of the Catholic Church you see that they don't even have enough priests to put one in every parish (and those they do have are increasingly foreign born), and Catholic Schools which once (like when I went to them) were overwhelmingly run by nuns and other clergy, now are pretty much lay run.

My age is showing. Some of what I saw as a kid growing up was much different then it is now. (Part of the over 50 group) I know I am not alone in that group to have seen first hand the total and complete hatred of us,and people getting violent towards us. Maybe then it was far more common and in some ways it has colored my thinking a bit too much.

Pretty much anti-gay notions/values are age related and highly generational.  The older you are the more likely you are anti-gay, as you move to younger and younger samples the "Meh, whatever..." reaction becomes more common.

The hard part is dealing with the memories. You just can't get rid of them. The rest can be dealt with but the memories remain even after all the time past.

 "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Mahatma Gandhi (The Prince of Peace)

Quote from: peky on September 18, 2012, 03:36:57 PM
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Mahatma Gandhi (The Prince of Peace)

I love that!

Quote from: SarahM777 on September 18, 2012, 12:23:37 PM
Hasn't there been enough violence against us? I for sure don't like it. But if the root cause is because of of what is being taught and then turned around to justify it,it will not change unless someone stands in the gap. It cannot change unless someone points out the errors in their thinking and it can bring about a change of heart.

How many Christians have been murdered by pagans? Including Rome, Persia, and India, the number is somewhere around 300,000

How many women did the christian kill by burning them in a stake? The most realistic number is 100,000, this is the "Women Holocaust" http://www.holocaust-history.org/~rjg/witches.shtml (http://www.holocaust-history.org/~rjg/witches.shtml)

Killed by the Crusader's Christians 3,500,000

and so on and so forth, you get the idea

Quote from: Keaira on August 27, 2012, 07:56:50 AM
In general, I don't like Christianity. Too many bad apples in there who are hypocrites. Like the many many Catholic Priests who molest the Choir Boys  that think it's okay to do so as long as they confess on Sunday. There's too many denominations too and each with their own views and perpetration of the Bible. Nor do I enjoy the mindless bigoted sheeple who believe they are pure believers and tell every person who fits the GLBT spectrum that they are going to hell, etc....

You get the idea.

However....

I met a pastor who has healed a wound in my family. My Brother-in-Law, as I have talked about before, said some very hurtful things when I began transition. We didn't talk for over a year because he felt like I had slighted him by transitioning.
My Mother-in-Law passed away a few weeks ago. For the sake of Family, my Brother-in-law and I set aside our differences to come together in support of our wives family. 
After the Memorial, I thanked the pastor for his moving words. (I cried as hard as my wife and her sisters despite trying not to). He then asked my Brother-in-Law, "Who is the woman with the black hair?"

He explained to the pastor who I was, my transition, etc. The pastor told him, "Your job, is not to judge her. Yours is to simply love her."

Afterwards, my Brother-in-law told me what he had said and and that even his Dad, whom I have known for years, asked "Who is that woman with black hair ?" So I was definitely passing. He also said that I was welcome back into his life again. He invited me to go to church on Sunday with him, to see why my Mother-in-Law liked it so much.

On one hand, I was not interested. On the other, the pastors words were still ringing in my ears. So, I went. And I kind of enjoyed it. Afterwards my Brother-in-Law asked how I like it. I gave him my opinion and that I was still unsure I could go again. Having to explain,'why I look like a woman' would get awkward if people asked him. My Brother-in-Law said that, if it got me to come to church, he would use female pronouns so that we didn't have to explain.

So, what can I say? I still find the people who cast stones with a bible in one hand and a bottle of Jack Daniels in the other to be evil little turds. But I think I have found a church that I could be a part of. A small part of Christianity that seems to be untouched by the flawed hatred of closet case Ministers and bigots with crosses.

See? I'm not entirely hateful, I just simply dont like the turds in the punch bowl. Like Westboro Baptist Church. ;)

That was a beautiful story :)

Quote from: SarahM777 on September 18, 2012, 01:58:39 PM
The hard part is dealing with the memories. You just can't get rid of them. The rest can be dealt with but the memories remain even after all the time past.

Yes. and the dreams too. I had the same night mirrors for years. Always sitting in the pew and saying  "I have to leave".

Probably one of the saddest things religious or otherwise is when you checkmate someone with a point of logic and they say "Thats your truth..."
Theres not much hope for the willfully ignorant. The effort would be better spent forging politics and laws to protect ourselves from radicals of all kinds.
But they will fight back. They insisted in "In god we trust" on currency, changed the pledge of allegiance, gave us the KKK ect but damm us for marrying who we love, adopting children, obtaining medical insurance ect.
Its pathetic...

Quote from: peky on September 18, 2012, 03:36:57 PM
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Mahatma Gandhi (The Prince of Peace)

While that may be the case for what so many see,does that mean I should reject Christ because of what others have said and done or do I accept Him for what He said and did? If they are opposed to each other
then one is true and the other false. They can not both be true.

Quote from: peky on September 18, 2012, 04:31:43 PM
How many Christians have been murdered by pagans? Including Rome, Persia, and India, the number is somewhere around 300,000

How many women did the christian kill by burning them in a stake? The most realistic number is 100,000, this is the "Women Holocaust" http://www.holocaust-history.org/~rjg/witches.shtml (http://www.holocaust-history.org/~rjg/witches.shtml)

Killed by the Crusader's Christians 3,500,000

and so on and so forth, you get the idea

I do apologize I did not catch that I was not clear when I said us. I meant those that are GLBT.

Were those that committed the atrocities really Christians or Christians in name only? If they were Christians in name only,they were false. And if the organized,franchised church were to show that they have changed their ways,they should sell the gold,silver and land,then do as Jesus told us to do feed the hungry,cloth the needy,shelter the homeless etc etc. and get back to the type of Church that the apostles laid down. Not the dead,lifeless,full of lists of dos and don't,loveless,egotistical,greedy,that comes across as just a total stench of vomit in the nostrils of God. I have no love for it at all and it should be torn down from it's very foundations because the foundation that they built it on was their own greed,lusts,and need for power,it was not built on love for God above everything else and love for the people around us. It's as simple as LOVE FOR ALL is to be the evidence of a True Christian.

Take it one step further than you can see how it was set up for someone at the top to be able to do what they did. First set the ground work that so one man is in total control. Give him a fancy title (Pope) Give him complete authority. (God's voice on earth and what ever the Pope says is as if it's from God ) Take away all checks and balances (all services in Latin no way to double check if what the Pope says is really what Jesus said,all scriptures written in Latin and the common man is not allowed to have them) Then use excommunication,the threat of purgatory,etc etc etc,and what do you end up with? A dictatorship. The more evil a dictator the more evil that comes out of that system. What's do they say about people who have power? "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Lord Acton

Now what did the rest of the denominations really do? Almost all of them have come out of that same system.All they ever did was reform parts of it along the way,they never really got rid of that system. If the system is corrupt to begin with reforming it does no good because the foundations are still corrupt.


The only way to get rid of the corruption is to go back to a time before that corruption was put in place. Which means jumping over the formation of the Roman Catholic Church,which is the main foundation of most of the modern day denominations.

A point to ponder. Is it possible that your transgendered fundamentalists Christian brothers and sisters have a unique perspective from which can be drawn insight and strength? Is it possible that they have strength and fortitude in near impossible odds against them? Perhaps in those impossible odds they have grown very strong and have much to offer that can not come from a different perspective. But if it were to be lost can it truly be regained?

You say you love me
And you're thinkin' of me
But you know you could be wrong
You say you told me
That you wanna hold me
But you know you're not that strong
I just can't do what I done before
I just can't beg you anymore
I'm gonna let you pass
And I'll go last
Then time will tell just who fell
And who's been left behind
When you go your way and I go mine

bob

I guess this is suppose to let me know where I stand here.

Quote from: SarahM777 on September 23, 2012, 01:45:54 PM
I guess this is suppose to let me know where I stand here.

Yeah you stand in good company. I don't know what I am anymore. I've steered closer to reading more into new age stuff but it doesn't mean I think you are wrong. Just hold the faith, be who you are and stick around. I mean that's all anyone can really do right?

It's just so hard. I just end up feeling like some sort of freak. And it's nothing new. I just wonder if I will ever feel any different.

at the end of the day you have to do what makes you sleep at night.

if you believe in Christ then believe he loves you for who you are and not for what others think you should be.

am not that religious and have never been for the last 15-18 odd years and have only gone for mass and to church to keep my parents happy.

once there, I spend the rest of my time either asleep or trying not to - sadly I can't stand any sort of religious meeting of any religion - I believe in God and in Christ but not people and definitely not any beliefs people have - I respect them for their beliefs but would never tolerate anyone forcing it upon me.

I am transitioning and have long since stopped caring about what others think and although I am still in boy mode - I can feel that day approaching when even in boy mode no-one would see me as guy but they would see the real me - and I can only pray and hope that day comes soon so that even if I have to go out in boy mode I would not hate myself for who I am or the way I look.

Till then I am going to do everything possible to make myself happy and I suggest you do the same girl.

You are not a freak you are a human being first and if you believe in God, then believe that he loves you.

PS: I just realized something: if God created us in his image, and if we are transgender doesn't that mean God is transgender too???  :o ::) :icon_eek:

::hugs::
Alexia.

I've spent way to much time alone,I should be used to it by now. No friends at school. Not one of my brothers and sisters have not talked to me in years. No kids even though I was married twice and the first lasted less than two years. The second ended twelve years ago after a grand total of six years and the last two were spent dealing with her alcoholism. Those relatives only talked to me once after the funeral and that was about a vase. I work at home and part of that is taking care of my elderly mom. Not exactly a life I would wish on someone else.

I've known enough heartache and pain to last two live times. It seems like every time I can finally see some happiness coming into my life something comes along to crush it right out of existence. It's not my lot in life to have that kind of happiness,mine is to have heartache,pain and sorrow. It's all I've ever really know.

Hon, am sorry for what you're going through. I know things are difficult now but put that chin up and punch anyone in the face who messes with you - well not literally the last bit of course cause that's a felony unless its in self-defense.

But anyways what I trying to say is don't give up, keep trying and be yourself once you are happy - happiness and people would come to you.

I know this is probably easier said that done but a lot of people who I care about (some on this board) have told me this - everytime bad things happen you need to get back on your feet. - well not exactly but still more or less what they said  ::) (sorry everyone for the improper quote)

I know this easier said than done but just give it a try am sure you would find happiness - just do things that make you happy.


::::big hug::::
Alexia

Thanks for the hugs

I am just feeling very old and worn out. It is so hard seeing so many others going forward and knowing how much I was ripped off for,I could have had everything done and paid cash for it. It just gets harder and harder every year to keep picking myself up. It's like someone keeps moving the finish line on me. I guess I am just hoping for someone to just walk with me. I know no one else can change my circumstances,those I am the only one who can do any thing about them to a degree. Sometimes we all just need someone else to hold out a hand to get us through another day.

It's not about where you stand, it's about where everyone is standing.  And, why I like that quote, is that ain't nobody standing, we're moving at the speed of light, so it's about that separation.  There are many different splits in the world and people are having a harder and harder time reconciling what they don't believe in - makes no difference what that is they are believing in.

Perhaps you are right,I'll have to think about that. I need to remember that so many here have been hurt so deeply by others,especially fundamentalists,and if I remember to take into account that I too have something that took a very,very long time to get over. It would be so easy to take what he did and apply it to everyone else,even though they never had anything to do with it.

One person in my life caused more damage to me then any one else. Because of what he did it set me back almost fifteen years. Once that time frame was done I was suffering from Stockholm Syndrome,I was so out of my mind I should have been institutionalized. To this day I have memories that are buried so deep,and still affect me but I don't know what they are. I have an very strong suspicion that they deal with some Satanistic rituals. The memories are darker and more evil than anything that Hollywood outs out. They are somewhat the same but at the same time so far different. I don't want to go there,they scare the hell out of me. I have never before known anyone else that was so evil,cruel and mean spirited before and I hope I never meet anyone like that again. The thing is he was gay. But at the same time he was involved in the dark occult also. (If he didn't deal with the alcoholism and drugs,he's most likely dead by now and I really don't want to know) How do I know the memories are true? That is for another time,but I do have confirmation that even earlier memories have shown to be 100% accurate,with date,time and circumstances and also having five others who had the same thing happen with the same person. The down side to having a photographic memory. (That was my uncle)

I didn't know what he was involved with at the beginning. We met at work,he was my boss,we both were single and started going to the Disco's. He told me was Catholic,but he left out that he had left the church. Thinking he was a friend and I could not afford the apartment by myself I allowed him to move in with me. It was the worst choice I have ever made. The choice was my own doing. The consequences of that choice are both mine and his.

If you had met me before that time you would have seen one of the most naive "little goody two shoes" and dumb as a box of rocks about life outside of what I knew. And it just had to do with how my life had been before that. I had been so sheltered before that. Being the oldest and having to take care of my five brothers and sisters on the weekend didn't leave much time for anything else. Then getting into high school and working 20-30 hours after school,you just don't have much time for anything else. Even things like watching TV was something I didn't do. Didn't smoke,didn't drink,didn't do drugs, and I was a virgin. Never saw a concert before that. Most of the music before that was the bubble gum rock. But at 19 my life got turned around,turned inside out and backwards.

It would be so easy to apply what he did to all,but it for sure is not the truth that all are like him.
I need to remember it is to easy to fall into that trap,and it's so easy to see others through those colored glasses. It took meeting others to let go of that fear that I had,to see that not all are like him. The hardest part is seeing someone else the same height and build,it sets off to many alarm bells. It's something I have to work through.

Realistically speaking, no one should hate anyone, that's a given. When it comes to complex institutionalized superstition (like religion) though, it gets tricky. Hate is, in my opinion, a cross product of ignorance. At its core, all religion is based upon ignorance. Before anyone gets grumpy at me for making this statement, let me qualify it.
Ignorance means "The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed" At the time most religions were invented, that was the actual state of human kind's level of science/knowledge with regard to our place in the universe, where we came from, and where we're going.
Modern religions are only tolerated in civil society by virtue of its adherents ability to "cherry pick" from their texts. That is to say, as culture changes, religions survive by scraping their barrels of beliefs for "teachings" that can be construed as relevant in today's culture. There is a correlation between a nations average IQ and its level of religiosity, the correlation shows, the higher one value is, the lower the other is. Although it is "true" (statistically), that irreligious people are more intelligent than their religious counterparts there are a lot of very complex forces at play, and also correlation does not equal cause. What is known (quantifiable) though, is the less religious a person is, (and the higher educated they become) the more liberal and accepting they are of differences in lifestyles. In short, for the hatred to go, people just need to be better access to (quality) higher education, everything else will sort itself out naturally :)
Its time to put "The Bumper Book of Bronze Age Bedtime Stories" down and put on our thinking caps.
(mods please note I was very careful in my wording to not flame any particular supernatural belief system)

Isabelle, you are quite bright. I agreed with your point 100%. Education is the pathway to a better future, but that opens up another can of worms: the institution of individually-funded education. Honestly, as long as society is focused on grades and money instead of knowledge for knowledge's sake, that might never change. Our best hope is that people open their eyes and realize that they don't need to go to structured, formalized educational facilities to become educated. Seriously, the college application process is harder than their courses. Geez.

Quote from: Isabelle on October 05, 2012, 09:07:30 PM
Realistically speaking, no one should hate anyone, that's a given. When it comes to complex institutionalized superstition (like religion) though, it gets tricky. Hate is, in my opinion, a cross product of ignorance. At its core, all religion is based upon ignorance. Before anyone gets grumpy at me for making this statement, let me qualify it.
Ignorance means "The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed" At the time most religions were invented, that was the actual state of human kind's level of science/knowledge with regard to our place in the universe, where we came from, and where we're going.
Modern religions are only tolerated in civil society by virtue of its adherents ability to "cherry pick" from their texts. That is to say, as culture changes, religions survive by scraping their barrels of beliefs for "teachings" that can be construed as relevant in today's culture. There is a correlation between a nations average IQ and its level of religiosity, the correlation shows, the higher one value is, the lower the other is. Although it is "true" (statistically), that irreligious people are more intelligent than their religious counterparts there are a lot of very complex forces at play, and also correlation does not equal cause. What is known (quantifiable) though, is the less religious a person is, (and the higher educated they become) the more liberal and accepting they are of differences in lifestyles. In short, for the hatred to go, people just need to be better access to (quality) higher education, everything else will sort itself out naturally :)
Its time to put "The Bumper Book of Bronze Age Bedtime Stories" down and put on our thinking caps.
(mods please note I was very careful in my wording to not flame any particular supernatural belief system)

I'd like to argue with the basis of some New Age religions.  I'm Pagan and happily so, and even take my beliefs seriously.  However, I'm a science nerd and adore history [and set to graduate in December with a teaching degree].  I love to learn and have always loved to learn and am constantly learning new things.  I'm also quite liberal and very accepting of different lifestyles [within reason; some don't strike me as right but those are ones that involve illegal things]. 

Not all religions require a closed-mind or ignorance.  You can be very well-versed/well-learned and still believe in some sort of religion or spirituality. 

So, Arawn, science nerd and religious? I honestly think that sun worshipers had the most sensible idea. Perfect blend of science and religion. The sun gives us warmth, light, and energy for plants to perform photosynthesis and supply food chains. Without the sun, we'd be dead and cold to boot. If anything deserves to be worshiped, it's the sun.

Also, I can actually see the sun, so that helps with its credibility.  :P

Quote from: DianaP on October 05, 2012, 09:52:13 PM
So, Arawn, science nerd and religious? I honestly think that sun worshipers had the most sensible idea. Perfect blend of science and religion. The sun gives us warmth, light, and energy for plants to perform photosynthesis and supply food chains. Without the sun, we'd be dead and cold to boot. If anything deserves to be worshiped, it's the sun.

Also, I can actually see the sun, so that helps with its credibility.  :P

Yeah, science nerd and spiritual, lol. -shrug- I reached my spiritual conclusions through years of research and personal happenings that were unable to be debunked by science [I look to science first (psychology included) and if it fails, I look for other possible explanations.]  I also never say anything is a fact [including science] nor do I say "belief".  I'm more on "ideas" and that I have a good "idea" of things in my life...I also don't say anything is 100% certain because things change and evolve and other things pop up that can discount something prior. 

I'm also really big on the "what you believe is true for you, but not necessarily for others" [when it comes to spirituality or lack of spirituality].  I've been told it's kind of a pansy thing to say and it means I don't really 'believe' what I 'believe', but oh well.  No point in getting irritated over what other people believe [unless it endangers the life of another creature.]

But by that logic, the fact that things change could have changed so that things no longer adjust. Thus, making it impossible for things to go back to the way they were since the rule about things changing changed to make a concretely ruled universe a long time ago. So for all we know, there are 100% certainties in the universe now.

Sorry, i couldn't resist.  :P


Of course, you can believe what ever you want. :)

QuoteNot all religions require a closed-mind or ignorance

I'm struggling to come up with any definition of religion that doesn't require aspects of both.

Quote from: Isabelle on October 05, 2012, 09:07:30 PM

Its time to put "The Bumper Book of Bronze Age Bedtime Stories" down and put on our thinking caps.
(mods please note I was very careful in my wording to not flame any particular supernatural belief system)

You don't flame anyone with your own beliefs and comments, but I feel compelled to point out that "The Bumper Book of Bronze Age Bedtime Stories" as you refer to it appears to betray the same insufferable arrogance and hypocrisy as do those who denigrate transgender people or people of color for being different. Sometimes it's best not to expose one's own bias's by denigrating the religious beliefs of some simply because you are either unable to share those beliefs or you enjoy mocking those who do by insinuating that they may be less educated or less intelligent because they do hold to certain beliefs. It appears that you are just flaming yourself!

Quotebut I feel compelled to point out that "The Bumper Book of Bronze Age Bedtime Stories" as you refer to it appears to betray the same insufferable arrogance and hypocrisy as do those who denigrate transgender people or people of color for being different

The term I picked wasn't specific to any supernatural belief system. When you say "refer to it" I'm not sure exactly which text you think I'm referring to. It was merely my way of pointing out the majority of these texts are very very old and as such, are not particularly applicable in modern civilization especially considering we have far more reliable methods of obtaining knowledge to help us form opinions. At no point did I mock anyone.

Given some of the pronouncements by opponents of marriage equality here I will wait and see what the Churches actually do.  The recent announcement by the Pope that being gay is a sign of an insufficiently developed person, leaves me shaking my head in disbelief.  This, coming from a former member of the Hitler Youth is too much.  As far as I am concerned the former church has just been reduced to the status of a cult.

Quote from: Isabelle on October 05, 2012, 10:48:46 PM
I'm struggling to come up with any definition of religion that doesn't require aspects of both.

I like the terms "Common" and "Unique".
Theres no negative condonation to either.
Just add your prefix/ suffix.
Common religion/  Unique religion/spirituality  ect.

Quote from: Isabelle on October 06, 2012, 12:41:26 AM
The term I picked wasn't specific to any supernatural belief system. When you say "refer to it" I'm not sure exactly which text you think I'm referring to. It was merely my way of pointing out the majority of these texts are very very old and as such, are not particularly applicable in modern civilization especially considering we have far more reliable methods of obtaining knowledge to help us form opinions. At no point did I mock anyone.

It's always difficult to know for certain the true intent of another individuals posted comments when one cannot hear tone and tenor of the comments being made or observe the body language of the speaker, thats just one of the reasons I abstain from the religious and political threads for the most part. There's usually nothing I can say that won't create some ill feelings. Although I'm not religious myself I do find that the old testament appears to be an excellent record of mankind's failure to achieve perfection under the law, there is a lot of common sense in the proverbs such as the one that says, "The borrower becomes the slave of the lender!" My life's experience says amen to that! The new testament is the answer to mankind's redemption from failure. There are prophecies in both that speak rather loudly to current times as new world events unfold almost daily, but for any of it to be meaningful, one has to look for it with an open mind and heart. Not being given to criticism of others, I do understand that life on the big rock in these times is filled with too much busyness for many to take the time or even have a desire to read the scriptures. My hope for us all is that as we strive to become congruent and some even attractive as women and men, that we don't project unflattering ugliness toward others based on our own lack of understanding or personal dislike of what some find as uplifting and wonderful. 

Quote from: Isabelle on October 05, 2012, 09:07:30 PM
Realistically speaking, no one should hate anyone, that's a given. When it comes to complex institutionalized superstition (like religion) though, it gets tricky. Hate is, in my opinion, a cross product of ignorance. At its core, all religion is based upon ignorance. Before anyone gets grumpy at me for making this statement, let me qualify it.

Is hate really a product of ignorance or is it a product of a person being different and it can't be accepted? Is it a product of putting people into boxes and appling the same stereotypes to the whole group? Can one really hate if people are seen on an individual basis and not as a group? Can one really hate if a person is seen as having worth and value,even when one disagrees?

Quote from: Isabelle on October 05, 2012, 09:07:30 PM

At its core, all religion is based upon ignorance. Before anyone gets grumpy at me for making this statement, let me qualify it.

Is that based on fact or opinion?

Quote from: Isabelle on October 05, 2012, 09:07:30 PM

What is known (quantifiable) though, is the less religious a person is, (and the higher educated they become) the more liberal and accepting they are of differences in lifestyles. In short, for the hatred to go, people just need to be better access to (quality) higher education, everything else will sort itself out naturally :)

Does having a higher education actually translate to less hate,or does history show that many highly intelligent and educated people were at the root of some of the world's greatest atrocities?
If that is the case then it is more likely the hate was already there to begin with and has far less to do with intelligence or education. The question that should be asked is it a matter of the head or the heart? If it is a matter of the heart then no amount of intelligence or education will change it. They will only shape it.

Quote from: DianaP on October 05, 2012, 10:42:50 PM
But by that logic, the fact that things change could have changed so that things no longer adjust. Thus, making it impossible for things to go back to the way they were since the rule about things changing changed to make a concretely ruled universe a long time ago. So for all we know, there are 100% certainties in the universe now.

Sorry, i couldn't resist.  :P

Of course, you can believe what ever you want. :)

But we don't know that there are 100% certainties so we're not certain about it.  Until we know that there are 100% certainties, then there aren't for us.  Some other critter out there might know it and hopefully they'd get their a**es here to enlighten us folks who don't know what they know.

I'd be all for finding out that there are 100% certainties.  I'd also be all for finding out that anything supernatural is all bunk and I'd also be all for finding out that there are supernatural happenings out there that are quite real and provable. 

I'm mostly just for learning regardless of what that learning is.

@ Isabelle:

Just because some definitions make it seem like one has to be "closed-minded" or "ignorant" to follow it doesn't mean that there aren't religions [or spiritualities] out there that thrive on people being unique and thrive on there being different lifestyles and encourage people to learn about the world around them.  A lot of New Age religions or beliefs thrive on diversity and encourage people to learn.  A lot don't, but a lot do as well.

Sometimes despite being well educated and aware of current happening etc.

people can still choose to be ignorant and close-minded.

It's sad but people can always try to understand the other person's POV but when they are not interested there is just plain rejection of everything and anything that we have to say.

I know a lot of people who despite being well educated and aware of current events, etc who are very homophobic and would use everything including religion to justify their stand and when your reasoning is better than their they would just close their ears and tell you using 2 famous words to go some place else.

People can always make an attempt they can try they can be moved by a helpfull gesture but still reject you for who you are and everything you have to say.

Quote from: SarahM777 on October 06, 2012, 10:26:22 AM
1) Is hate really a product of ignorance or is it a product of a person being different and it can't be accepted?

2) Does having a higher education actually translate to less hate,or does history show that many highly intelligent and educated people were at the root of some of the world's greatest atrocities?

1) Hate is the product of fear which in turn is the product of IGNORANCE

2) Having a higher intelligence, specially emotional intelligence, always translates in more tolerance. Having a well round education by virtue of having going to school or by acquiring on your own, again, it translate into more tolerance.

Most of the great atrocities, e.g. crusades, inquisition, Salem which hunts, genocides, were conducted by IGNORANT and RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS, people like the Catholic Popes, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc All were people with little education or dominated by their extreme religious beliefs

Quote from: peky on October 06, 2012, 02:27:28 PM

2) Having a higher intelligence, specially emotional intelligence, always translates in more tolerance. Having a well round education by virtue of having going to school or by acquiring on your own, again, it translate into more tolerance.

Most of the great atrocities, e.g. crusades, inquisition, Salem which hunts, genocides, were conducted by IGNORANT and RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS, people like the Catholic Popes, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc All were people with little education or dominated by their extreme religious beliefs

Sorry Peky,but the popes were often the most educated of their day,Stalin,Lenin,and Mao were all born into wealthy families,wealth in those days often meant a much higher education level than the general populous,all had a higher education than the average person of their day. Even Hilter attended University for a time. All were far from ignorant peasants. All could read and write far better than the masses,and used their powers of persuasion and force for their ends.

Some of the most well educated people in the world have done some of the most evil deeds, it really just boils down to choices people make! Sometimes a highly educated miscreant is simply more cunning in how he or she goes about their evil deeds.

Quote from: SarahM777 on October 06, 2012, 04:07:09 PM
Sorry Peky,but the popes were often the most educated of their day,Stalin,Lenin,and Mao were all born into wealthy families,wealth in those days often meant a much higher education level than the general populous,all had a higher education than the average person of their day. Even Hilter attended University for a time. All were far from ignorant peasants. All could read and write far better than the masses,and used their powers of persuasion and force for their ends.

Wrong again:

STALIN:
Beaten by his mother so badly that he pee blood, not the kind of good family, eh?
He never earned any kind of education. "At sixteen, he received a scholarship to a Georgian Orthodox seminary, where he rebelled against the imperialist and religious order. Though he performed well there, he was expelled in 1899 after missing his final exams. The seminary records indicate that his parent were unable to pay the tuition."  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin)

MAO:
Let see, his family: His father, Mao Shun-sheng (1870–?), had been born into a poverty-stricken peasant family, and had gained two years worth of education before joining the army. Eventually returning to agriculture, he earned a living as both a moneylender and a grain merchant" Not really the most enlightened people, right?
School: Mao ever accomplished any kind of education: "Mao enrolled and dropped out of a series of schools in quick succession; a police academy, a soap-production school, a law school and an economics school, the latter being the only course which his father approved of. However, the lectures were given in the English language, which Mao could not understand, and so he soon abandoned this and began attendance at the government-run Changsha Middle School; he soon dropped out of this too, finding its courses too rooted in old Confucian ideas and traditions. Deciding to undertake his studies independently, he spent much time in the newly opened public library at Changsha, reading the core works of classical liberalism such as Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations and Montesquieu's The Spirit of the Laws, as well as the works of western scientists and philosophers like Charles Darwin, J.S. Mill, Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Herbert Spencer.[ Seeing no use in his son's purely intellectual pursuits, Mao's father cut off his allowance, forcing Mao to move into a hostel for the destitute."

HITLER:

Hitler barely finished high school: "in September 1900 Alois sent Adolf to the Realschule in Linz.[24] (This was the same high school that Adolf Eichmann would attend some 17 years later.)[25] Hitler rebelled against this decision, and in Mein Kampf revealed that he did poorly in school, hoping that once his father saw "what little progress I was making at the technical school he would let me devote myself to my dream." After Alois' sudden death on 3 January 1903, Hitler's performance at school deteriorated. His mother allowed him to quit in autumn 1905. He enrolled at the Realschule in Steyr in September 1904; his behaviour and performance showed some slight and gradual improvement. In the autumn of 1905, after passing a repeat and the final exam, Hitler left the school without showing any ambitions for further schooling or clear plans for a career. The Academy of Fine Arts Vienna rejected him twice, in 1907 and 1908, because of his "unfitness for painting". The director recommended that Hitler study architecture,[34] but he lacked the academic credentials. On 21 December 1907, his mother died aged 47. After the Academy's second rejection, Hitler ran out of money. In 1909 he lived in a homeless shelter, and by 1910, he had settled into a house for poor working men on Meldemannstraße."

You need to get some Biology 101, and History 101 dear, just a suggestion!

What has helped soften my perspective is to consider that every person is capable of every evil, no matter how spiritual or intelligent they look on the outside.  We who hold strong to religious beliefs would do well to consider our own vulnerabilities before we condemn another.  When spiritual leaders make terrible choices, I must realize that I am equally as capable of committing the same crime or sin as it may be defined.  Oftentimes a spirit of condemnation comes from an internal belief that the one who condemns is a better person than the one who is being condemned.

If I had the same mental problems, education, spiritual influences, and rearing as Hitler, would I have made the same decisions that he did?

Lets compare the three stooges to our Roosevelt, a man so opposite to the uneducated Mao, Stalin, or Hitler, and who by the way never committed any atrocities.

ROOSEVELT:

He grew up with private tutors before attending Groton (1896-1900). He attended Harvard (1900-04) where he was an average student. He then went to Columbia Law School (1904-07), passed the bar, and decided not to stay on to graduate.

So, yeah, perhaps there is something to be said for educated people who hold their religious beliefs at a moderate level

Quote from: peky on October 06, 2012, 04:52:17 PM
Lets compare the three stooges to our Roosevelt, a man so opposite to the uneducated Mao, Stalin, or Hitler, and who by the way never committed any atrocities.

I was wrong about Mao. But the point that you made was also about self education,which is what each and every single one of them did. Their education was so far from being balanced,they taught themselves along very radical lines that fit in with their mind set. That is not the same as saying they were totally uneducated.

My point was about accsess to quality higher education. Popes were "educated" after a fashion. The question is what was ther primary source? Comparing the modern educated human to the likes of Stalin or Hitler isn't really logical or useful. If we use these two as an argument against education, we are essentially setting a criteria for comparison. That is to say, compare these two bad people with every other educated person. It is a self defeating position.
There are "crazy" extremists in every self identifying group, be it Transsexuals, Muslims, Bankers, Mechanics or Pre-school Teachers. When it comes to supernatural beliefs as a basis of forming views, it becomes dangerous. Yes the vast vast vast majority of any religious group are perfectly normal people however, and it's a BIG however, the moderates provide the fertile soil from which the extremists/fundamentalists spring forth. Without that soil, they would struggle to thrive.

Quote from: Isabelle on October 06, 2012, 06:56:12 PM
My point was about accsess to quality higher education. Popes were "educated" after a fashion. The question is what was ther primary source? Comparing the modern educated human to the likes of Stalin or Hitler isn't really logical or useful. If we use these two as an argument against education, we are essentially setting a criteria for comparison. That is to say, compare these two bad people with every other educated person. It is a self defeating position.

It is very for any educated person to pull the wool over the uneducated masses,for the popes they had it made doing that. First keep everything in a language that only the priests and those educated in Latin gives one a certain amount of control,mix in superstitions to a superstitious people,tell them that the leader is the voice of God on earth,and whatever the current pope says is as if it is from God,and leave the pope with absoultute authority and power,with no checks and balances to remove a bad pope, and what do you have. The perfect dictatorship. The popes then used that power for greedy gain and control. I just find it had that the popes themselves were ingnorant,they knew what they had set up and used it as a license to do what they wanted all in the name of God.

But I think to say they were uneducated is a misnomer. They did educate themselves along a very narrowly defined path. To take that and say that education is bad is also wrong. They just took the things they learned and applied them in a very evil way.

Quote from: Isabelle on October 06, 2012, 06:56:12 PM
There are "crazy" extremists in every self identifying group, be it Transsexuals, Muslims, Bankers, Mechanics or Pre-school Teachers. When it comes to supernatural beliefs as a basis of forming views, it becomes dangerous. Yes the vast vast vast majority of any religious group are perfectly normal people however, and it's a BIG however, the moderates provide the fertile soil from which the extremists/fundamentalists spring forth. Without that soil, they would struggle to thrive.

The problem comes when a person is looked at as being part of the extreme even without ever knowing anything about them.

I didn't say popes are uneducated, I said they're educated after a fashion. You and I are actually in agreement. When it comes to extremism, it is my personal opinion that all supernatural beliefs are inherently extreme. That is what qualifies them as supernatural to begin with.

Quote from: Isabelle on October 06, 2012, 07:51:53 PM
I didn't say popes are uneducated, I said they're educated after a fashion. You and I are actually in agreement. When it comes to extremism, it is my personal opinion that all supernatural beliefs are inherently extreme. That is what qualifies them as supernatural to begin with.

But is it really any more extreme than people believing in the Loch Ness Monster,Sasquatch,Aliens,a different universe,multiple dimensions beyond what we know,etc etc.? Some have claimed to have seen some of these things. Does that in itself make them extreme or is it what they do with it?

With the exception of multiple dimensions, no, it's no more extreme than any of the things you list. They are all supernatural beliefs and in my opinion, of equal worth. Multiple dimensions are an entirely separate subject. Their is existence is predicted and in some cases required by various mathematical models.

Quote from: Isabelle on October 06, 2012, 08:41:53 PM
With the exception of multiple dimensions, no, it's no more extreme than any of the things you list. They are all supernatural beliefs and in my opinion, of equal worth. Multiple dimensions are an entirely separate subject. Their is existence is predicted and in some cases required by various mathematical models.

You are right multiple dimensions should exist by the mathematics,but they still have to be taken by a certain amount of faith,because they cannot be seen,but are proven by inference,predictable patterns
etc but can not be proven by direct observation of smell,sight,sound,taste,or touch.

I don't hate any Christians, I just don't like what some of them do or say.  A fair percentage of them however seem to have it in for me, even though they have not met me.  A bit like Ghandi being asked what he thought of European Civilisation, his reply being that he thought it would be a good idea.  Christian Churches ditto.

Quote from: justmeinoz on October 07, 2012, 06:30:15 AM
I don't hate any Christians, I just don't like what some of them do or say.  A fair percentage of them however seem to have it in for me, even though they have not met me.  A bit like Ghandi being asked what he thought of European Civilisation, his reply being that he thought it would be a good idea.  Christian Churches ditto.

I am inclined to have similar thoughts and unfortunately it isn't meant to be a reflection on Christ, but it does seem as if more than a few of His wannabe Christian followers got His message wrong and expend an inordinate amount of time and energy casting stones at those they feel are less than worthy of His love for humankind. My thought here is that in any garden you will have some beautiful flowers along with weeds, thorns and thistles. This then is a perfect analogy of the church as it is today. Sadly those rock throwing thorny types give Jesus a black eye in the view of many, with certainty they will have to account for it one day. Hopefully there are those who have been scorned by these prickly types that will be able to look beyond those events and realize that Christ Himself was so scorned by the religious right in His day. It's just a part of the human condition, He knew it and forged ahead in spite of it and so should we all!

Quote from: SarahM777 on October 07, 2012, 06:21:24 AM
You are right multiple dimensions should exist by the mathematics,but they still have to be taken by a certain amount of faith,because they cannot be seen,but are proven by inference,predictable patterns
etc but can not be proven by direct observation of smell,sight,sound,taste,or touch.

No "faith" is required. The thing about mathematical models that predict or require extra dimensions  (like the various string theories) is this, they are a model of "a universe" not necessarily "our" universe. The search continues for the model that best describes and predicts observable phenomena. When it is found (if its possible to find) it will be repeatable, independently verifiable and it will withstand peer review. It's like the Laws of Thermodynamics, we don't take them based on faith, we utilize them based on evidence.
Back on topic...
Studies have shown that people who believe in gods often feel their opinions are in line with their deities. When these opinions are manipulated in a controlled fashion (like in a psychology experiment) to encourage a change in opinion, the opinion of their deities change too.
These studies are interesting because we are left with a few possible ways of deciding what this all means. The two I find most useful are;

1- A persons deity notifies them in advance of their intention to change their point of view, effectively meaning, the person thinks something before their god does.

2- A person uses the idea of a god/deity/etc as a way to bolster their own opinion. Put simply, they make what their god thinks as they go because, their god is made up.

Both of these options make hate quite possible.

I love how this is presented in the title as some sort of equality.  It ain't.  There is a clear majority persecuting a clearly visible minority.  The 'hate' is all one sided.  I sure don't see any LGBT people trying to stop Xians from living their life, worshiping in their way, or trying to stop their sex-fueled hetro marriages.  So don't present it as some sort of 'well both sides' deal.  It's not.

I wish there was a way to share a letter I received to day as I took my son into his school wearing a simple pair of Flats, jeans , and a windbreaker which was obvisiously male . The teacher had a hissy fit over the shoes ................. I'm banned now from the property. ellen

Quote from: eshaver on October 11, 2012, 01:36:57 PM
I wish there was a way to share a letter I received to day as I took my son into his school wearing a simple pair of Flats, jeans , and a windbreaker which was obvisiously male . The teacher had a hissy fit over the shoes ................. I'm banned now from the property. ellen

That is horrible. How can they ban you? You have every right to be there just like any other parent!

Quote from: eshaver on October 11, 2012, 01:36:57 PM
I wish there was a way to share a letter I received to day as I took my son into his school wearing a simple pair of Flats, jeans , and a windbreaker which was obvisiously male . The teacher had a hissy fit over the shoes ................. I'm banned now from the property. ellen

Thats totally wrong. Perhaps there some resources in your community or near by that could help. unions, media ect.
(((Hugs)))

Quote from: eshaver on October 11, 2012, 01:36:57 PM
I wish there was a way to share a letter I received to day as I took my son into his school wearing a simple pair of Flats, jeans , and a windbreaker which was obvisiously male . The teacher had a hissy fit over the shoes ................. I'm banned now from the property. ellen

How bizarre. I don't begin to understand this. I know a woman who takes her children to school while she is wearing her dressing gown. How can anyone tell you what to wear?

Quote from: Cindy James on October 12, 2012, 02:39:13 AM
How bizarre. I don't begin to understand this. I know a woman who takes her children to school while she is wearing her dressing gown. How can anyone tell you what to wear?

I would look at legal options available. I don't think they'd have a leg to stand on in the UK.

Quote from: eshaver on October 11, 2012, 01:36:57 PM
I wish there was a way to share a letter I received to day as I took my son into his school wearing a simple pair of Flats, jeans , and a windbreaker which was obvisiously male . The teacher had a hissy fit over the shoes ................. I'm banned now from the property. ellen

I"d want to have a little discussion about the matter with the school administrator and bring up the potential for costly litigation and negative press. (Always use the biggest hammer you can find in your tool box!) We are not door mats for bigots to wipe their feet on!